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pythons007
02-09-2010, 09:20 AM
Its on ESPN so take it for what its worth, plus its in the insider section so I can't read the whole article. If someone has this please post a link, if possible.
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4899337&name=olney_buster&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fesp n%2fblog%2findex%3fentryID%3d4899337%26name%3dolne y_buster

Its by Buster Olney who I think gives a pretty good insight to subjects on baseball. Who do you think are the top 5 starting rotations in all of baseball?

1. Yankees
2. Red Sox
3. Arizona (if Webb can come back strong)
4. Florida (is going to surprise a lot of people)
5. San Franicsco (could be really tough)
6. White Sox

Domeshot17
02-09-2010, 09:37 AM
In my opinion Boston has, by far, the best 1-5 (and really 1-6) in all of baseball.

The Yankees are in the top 5, but it really all hinges on does Joba put it together and does Javy keep it together.

The White Sox are in the top 5 also. They are number 2 if Danks takes the step forward into "Lester Good" and if Buehrle regains his consistency.

My Sleeper is the Mariners, especially in the 2nd half of Baseball and the playoffs. IF (and its a HUGE IF) Bedard comes back healthy, the 1-2-3 of King Felix-Lee-Bedard is better than Peavy-Buehrle-Danks and every bit as good as Beckett Lester Lackey.

asindc
02-09-2010, 10:03 AM
While I put Boston at the top, I don't think it is as clear-cut as many have said. I do not think Beckett is among the top five aces in baseball, and I would be more concerned about Dice-K if I was a Boston fan than I think Yank fans should be about Joba. I actually like Lester more than Beckett at this point. Florida's rotation will be good, but not better than the Sox's. And I want to see more from SF's back end before I put them among the elite.

Thatguyoverthere
02-09-2010, 10:21 AM
To me, it's

1. Red Sox (but not by much)
2. White Sox
3. Yankees (though their rotation is pretty overrated by the media)

The other teams just don't have the depth to match these three, though the Cardinals, Mariners (if Bedard is healthy they could be top three), Braves, and Giants have to be in the mix for the next tier.

DonnieDarko
02-09-2010, 11:15 AM
To me, it's

1. Red Sox (but not by much)
2. White Sox
3. Yankees (though their rotation is pretty overrated by the media)

The other teams just don't have the depth to match these three, though the Cardinals, Mariners (if Bedard is healthy they could be top three), Braves, and Giants have to be in the mix for the next tier.

...this is pretty much what I wanted to say.

GET OUT OF MY HEAD! >_<

pythons007
02-09-2010, 11:50 AM
Hey I want to see the the White Sox rotation to be top 5 too. I think they have the horses, but I need to see a huge step forward for Danks. Floyd needs to cut down on the bad stretches as well.

I agree with some that say that Beckett isn't a top 5 ace, but the whole rotation is good. The Yankees have arguably one of the top 3 aces in all of baseball with CC, Burnett is an innings eater when healthy and Javy is 200/200 almost every year. Joba is a question mark due to his durability. But I stick by my guns as they are the number one, and I'm one of the biggest Yankee haters out there.

Its hard to argue against SF with Lincy and Cain followed by Zito. The back end is a question but they are highly touted prospects (Bumgardner).

stevemcstud
02-09-2010, 11:56 AM
Just read the article, here is the standings:

1. Red Sox

2. Yankees

3. White Sox

4. Angels

5. Cardinals

5a. Phillies


I don't see how the Angels have a better rotation than Cardinals but that is just me.

You can really go either way on the White Sox and Yankees at 2 and 3. The key being AJ Burnett and Freddy Garcia as you don't know what you are going to get out of those two. AJ can be an Ace or mediocre and Freddy can win 12 or be out of the rotations after a month.

Thatguyoverthere
02-09-2010, 12:50 PM
Hey I want to see the the White Sox rotation to be top 5 too. I think they have the horses, but I need to see a huge step forward for Danks. Floyd needs to cut down on the bad stretches as well.

I agree with some that say that Beckett isn't a top 5 ace, but the whole rotation is good. The Yankees have arguably one of the top 3 aces in all of baseball with CC, Burnett is an innings eater when healthy and Javy is 200/200 almost every year. Joba is a question mark due to his durability. But I stick by my guns as they are the number one, and I'm one of the biggest Yankee haters out there.

Its hard to argue against SF with Lincy and Cain followed by Zito. The back end is a question but they are highly touted prospects (Bumgardner).I just don't see how they can be number one with so many question marks. CC is great, but Burnett has never reached his potential and most of his career has been a glorified Kerry Wood, Petite is old and is merely good, not great, Javy is going back to the American League and the New York pressure cooker where he has not fared well, and Joba is a huge question mark. The Red Sox and White Sox staffs have less questions. I don't know what "bad stretches" you mean when talking about Floyd. He was awful to start last year, yes, but that was because he was tipping his pitches. He was consistently great the rest of the season afterwards. And Danks, even if he stays as is, is a very solid #3 starter. But he could very well end up being the best on the staff.

EDIT: Just to reiterate my point, even if Danks stays the same, the White Sox have three starters better than the Yankee's second. Also, a good argument can be made for Floyd as well. The ERAs were almost exactly the same last year, and though Burnett struck out a few more, he also had significantly more walks than Floyd. Furthermore, if Dice-K is healthy, then the Red Sox also have four starters better than the Yankees' second starter. The Yankees may have the best overall starter in Sabathia, but their other starters just don't match up IMO. It's not unrealistic to say the White Sox rotation is this good. We are rock solid 1-4, and that is without taking into consideration possible improvements from Danks. Finally, if Garcia/Hudson can just give us a 4.50 ERA, then our rotation will be fantastic. That's not unreasonable to expect from them.

pythons007
02-09-2010, 04:20 PM
I just don't see how they can be number one with so many question marks. CC is great, but Burnett has never reached his potential and most of his career has been a glorified Kerry Wood, Petite is old and is merely good, not great, Javy is going back to the American League and the New York pressure cooker where he has not fared well, and Joba is a huge question mark. The Red Sox and White Sox staffs have less questions. I don't know what "bad stretches" you mean when talking about Floyd. He was awful to start last year, yes, but that was because he was tipping his pitches. He was consistently great the rest of the season afterwards. And Danks, even if he stays as is, is a very solid #3 starter. But he could very well end up being the best on the staff.

EDIT: Just to reiterate my point, even if Danks stays the same, the White Sox have three starters better than the Yankee's second. Also, a good argument can be made for Floyd as well. The ERAs were almost exactly the same last year, and though Burnett struck out a few more, he also had significantly more walks than Floyd. Furthermore, if Dice-K is healthy, then the Red Sox also have four starters better than the Yankees' second starter. The Yankees may have the best overall starter in Sabathia, but their other starters just don't match up IMO. It's not unrealistic to say the White Sox rotation is this good. We are rock solid 1-4, and that is without taking into consideration possible improvements from Danks. Finally, if Garcia/Hudson can just give us a 4.50 ERA, then our rotation will be fantastic. That's not unreasonable to expect from them.

I like your argument!

Frater Perdurabo
02-09-2010, 07:29 PM
NL rotations really don't affect the White Sox.

The fact that we are Top 3 in the AL is what's significant.

Craig Grebeck
02-09-2010, 07:34 PM
NL rotations really don't affect the White Sox.

The fact that we are Top 3 in the AL is what's significant.
Absolutely. Plus the NL can spend more on pitching, as they don't need room in the budget for nine hitters.

Daver
02-09-2010, 07:35 PM
NL rotations really don't affect the White Sox.

The fact that we are Top 3 in the AL is what's significant.

Top three according to Buster Olney, who, when all is said and done, is little more than a sportswriter.

Frater Perdurabo
02-09-2010, 08:08 PM
Top three according to Buster Olney, who, when all is said and done, is little more than a sportswriter.

Put Buster Olney aside. Do you think the Sox have one of the Top 3 rotations in the AL? I do, and it's not because Buster Olney or anyone else says so.

stevemcstud
02-09-2010, 08:45 PM
According to Buster this is his Top 5 for MLB not any particular league.

Daver
02-09-2010, 09:03 PM
Put Buster Olney aside. Do you think the Sox have one of the Top 3 rotations in the AL? I do, and it's not because Buster Olney or anyone else says so.

I think the White Sox have a very good rotation, but I am not going to formulate a ranking based on nothing more than numbers, and I have not seen enough of the rest of the league to form an honest opinion.

mzh
02-09-2010, 09:05 PM
Put Buster Olney aside. Do you think the Sox have one of the Top 3 rotations in the AL? I do, and it's not because Buster Olney or anyone else says so.

If all constants are in fact constants, then yes I would agree. But as was brought up earlier in the thread, if Bedard can come back healthy then I would consider the M's easily able to match us or the Yankees. Hell, Even the Rays could be in the top 5 if Shields is consistent as usual, Price starts to make a real impact, and Sonnanstine goes back to 08 form. But again, these all rely on unknowns, so for now I would say the Sox are in the top 3.

mzh
02-09-2010, 09:07 PM
I think the White Sox have a very good rotation, but I am not going to formulate a ranking based on nothing more than numbers, and I have not seen enough of the rest of the league to form an honest opinion.
So then what exactly do you rank them by? :scratch: At this point, before the season has even started, what else is there really to go by?

Daver
02-09-2010, 09:10 PM
So then what exactly do you rank them by? :scratch: At this point, before the season has even started, what else is there really to go by?

There is a lot to be said for actually watching players perform, and using that to form an observed opinion based on mechanics, results, and performance.

You should try it some time.

mzh
02-09-2010, 09:14 PM
There is a lot to be said for actually watching players perform, and using that to form an observed opinion based on mechanics, results, and performance.

You should try it some time.

I would if you can first explain to me how I can watch pitchers mechanics and their results when there aren't actually any pitchers even throwing. Also, aren't the performance and results of pitchers represtented by stats anyway?

WhiteSox5187
02-09-2010, 09:14 PM
There is a lot to be said for actually watching players perform, and using that to form an observed opinion based on mechanics, results, and performance.

You should try it some time.

Both of which can be measured by numbers...though they are certainly not infallible.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-09-2010, 09:38 PM
Why aren't the the Twins #1? Their lineup makes their pitching staff the obvious choice for at LEAST top 5. :scratch:

Daver
02-09-2010, 09:46 PM
Both of which can be measured by numbers...though they are certainly not infallible.

What number measures a pitchers move to first base on a pick off?

canOcorn
02-09-2010, 09:47 PM
Why aren't the the Twins #1? Their lineup makes their pitching staff the obvious choice for at LEAST top 5. :scratch:

Scratch your head all you want, but their roster makes them the clear favorite for the division. :shrug:

Daver
02-09-2010, 09:48 PM
Why aren't the the Twins #1? Their lineup makes their pitching staff the obvious choice for at LEAST top 5. :scratch:

Because how well a team hits has nothing to do with their pitching?

Rdy2PlayBall
02-09-2010, 09:48 PM
Because how well a team hits has nothing to do with their pitching?Sorry. Fixed my post

asindc
02-09-2010, 10:34 PM
Scratch your head all you want, but their roster makes them the clear favorite for the division. :shrug:

I think Jacque Jones, along with Thome, puts them over the top, since they will not need to rely on Mauer, Morneau, and Kubel as LH hitters as much.

basilesox
02-10-2010, 10:57 AM
What number measures a pitchers move to first base on a pick off?

Hmm....Let me see. Maybe the number of successful pick off attempts he has per year.

Hitmen77
02-10-2010, 02:29 PM
Just read the article, here is the standings:

1. Red Sox

2. Yankees

3. White Sox

4. Angels

5. Cardinals

5a. Phillies


This is why I am hoping the Sox get another bat for their lineup. I think our rotation will be great and this is our chance to be not only tallest midget in the AL Central, but a serious contender against the Yankee$, Red$ox, and whoever rises to the top of the AL West.

Our window with this rotation is not that long. Buehrle is in his 30s and his contract is up next year, the cost of keeping Danks is going to get higher and higher, Peavy is in his prime now.

Dang, I think our team is tantalizingly close to putting together a pennant contender.

It'll be interesting to see how the #5 spot plays out this year. Does Freddy pitch well and last through the season? Will we see Dan Hudson starting games for the Sox at some point this year? We'll see how is plays out beginning in a few short weeks!

mzh
02-10-2010, 02:46 PM
What number measures a pitchers move to first base on a pick off?
I would guess that stat is pickoffs.

Craig Grebeck
02-10-2010, 03:40 PM
Pickoffs in addition to SB totals. That's obviously a significant portion of Buehrle's utility.

goon
02-10-2010, 04:16 PM
Lackey doesn't put Boston over the top. Besides Beckett and Lester I have no idea why anyone would label them the "clear-cut" top rotation in the AL. Matsuzaka, Wakefield? Whatever. Bucholz has the talent, but no results yet. He did throw a no hitter, I guess.

Lackey hasn't really proven that he can stay healthy for a full year and his numbers continue to decline. If Cliff Lee's foot is okay after surgery, I don't see why Seattle wouldn't be considered a top 3 rotation in the AL. The Yankees have a really strong 1-4 and the Rays look great. The White Sox may just have the best rotation in the AL, I don't see why not.

chisoxfanatic
02-10-2010, 07:26 PM
To me, it's

1. Red Sox (but not by much)
2. White Sox
3. Yankees (though their rotation is pretty overrated by the media)

The other teams just don't have the depth to match these three, though the Cardinals, Mariners (if Bedard is healthy they could be top three), Braves, and Giants have to be in the mix for the next tier.
I like your top 3 too. I do personally believe the Sox have the best 1-2 punch, though.

TDog
02-10-2010, 08:20 PM
At this point, top rotation is a guess. There are teams with talented starting pitchers, including the White Sox, but if the starters don't have strong seasons, things can fall apart, as the 1984 White Sox rotation did when it went into the season seeming the strongest.

Right now, I would guess the Giants will have a better rotation than anyone in the American League, but I see the Giants more than I see other teams, and that may influence my guess.

Craig Grebeck
02-10-2010, 08:22 PM
At this point, top rotation is a guess. There are teams with talented starting pitchers, including the White Sox, but if the starters don't have strong seasons, things can fall apart, as the 1984 White Sox rotation did when it went into the season seeming the strongest.

Right now, I would guess the Giants will have a better rotation than anyone in the American League, but I see the Giants more than I see other teams, and that may influence my guess.
The presence of Tim Lincecum alone makes things, well, difficult for the rest of the league.

DirtySox
02-10-2010, 08:25 PM
I like your top 3 too. I do personally believe the Sox have the best 1-2 punch, though.

Maybe out of those 3 listed, but give me King Felix and Cliff Lee.

chisoxfanatic
02-10-2010, 09:59 PM
Maybe out of those 3 listed, but give me King Felix and Cliff Lee.
I'm going to make a fearless prediction here and say that Jake Peavy is going to win the AL Cy Young.

oeo
02-10-2010, 10:08 PM
Right now, I would guess the Giants will have a better rotation than anyone in the American League, but I see the Giants more than I see other teams, and that may influence my guess.

I'd never take a top NL rotation over a top AL rotation unless it was so completely dominant in the NL that it couldn't be argued. There were 5 teams in the NL with sub-4.00 ERA's and only one in the AL (it was higher than the 5 in the NL, as well). In the Top 10 by ERA, only three of them were AL teams. It's a different league, obviously. And when they match up, the AL is always dominant...it's not like their staffs are shutting the AL teams down. They're just shutting down weak lineups in the NL.

Boondock Saint
02-10-2010, 10:11 PM
I'm going to make a fearless prediction here and say that Jake Peavy is going to win the AL Cy Young.

That's a bold prediction, considering how many outstanding pitchers there are in the AL right now. There's ten or more guys that can do it easily, and then there's the guys that could have that "finally figured it out" season, and just blow everyone else away.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-10-2010, 10:49 PM
That's a bold prediction, considering how many outstanding pitchers there are in the AL right now. There's ten or more guys that can do it easily, and then there's the guys that could have that "finally figured it out" season, and just blow everyone else away.You mean either Floyd or Danks? :redneck

TDog
02-10-2010, 10:59 PM
I'd never take a top NL rotation over a top AL rotation unless it was so completely dominant in the NL that it couldn't be argued. There were 5 teams in the NL with sub-4.00 ERA's and only one in the AL (it was higher than the 5 in the NL, as well). In the Top 10 by ERA, only three of them were AL teams. It's a different league, obviously. And when they match up, the AL is always dominant...it's not like their staffs are shutting the AL teams down. They're just shutting down weak lineups in the NL.

Of course, it's just a guess. But the Giants don't have to pitch against the weakest lineup in the National League because that's who they depend on for offensive support. I don't think any team in the American League has a starting rotation that will match up against the Giants' this season.

chisoxfanatic
02-10-2010, 11:02 PM
You mean either Floyd or Danks? :redneck
I think Floyd will get from 14-16 wins this season, that Danks' finger condition may produce some problems, and that Freddy will end up being our 4th most effective pitcher.

doublem23
02-10-2010, 11:04 PM
I think Floyd will get from 14-16 wins this season, that Danks' finger condition may produce some problems, and that Freddy will end up being our 4th most effective pitcher.

I think Johnny got a clean bill of health.

chisoxfanatic
02-10-2010, 11:09 PM
I think Johnny got a clean bill of health.
I'm just worried about the colder months like April, May, and October. My aunt has a similar condition with her hands, and it's something that is hard to get rid of.

doublem23
02-10-2010, 11:12 PM
My aunt has a similar condition with her hands, and it's something that is hard to get rid of.

Is your aunt a professional athlete?

I'm not going to worry too much about it, the Sox medical staff is phenomenal. If they think John is OK, then I think he's OK.

Thatguyoverthere
02-11-2010, 12:41 AM
Of course, it's just a guess. But the Giants don't have to pitch against the weakest lineup in the National League because that's who they depend on for offensive support. I don't think any team in the American League has a starting rotation that will match up against the Giants' this season.I'm interested in your opinion on this. The Giants rotation is very strong at the top, but what about the back end?

TDog
02-11-2010, 02:36 AM
I'm interested in your opinion on this. The Giants rotation is very strong at the top, but what about the back end?

I really like Jonathan Sanchez, who pitched a no-hitter last year. He's not Tim Lincecum, but he can be very tough to hit. He is maturing, and I think he'll be more consistent this season. Madison Bumgarner has a chance to be very good. Barry Zito has never had a winning season with the Giants, and hasn't been nearly as good in the National League as he was in the American League, but he improved last season.

I just have a feeling that if Lincecum, Cain and Sanchez are as solid as I expect them to be, Zito will thrive without the pressure that came with his bloated contract. But you never know. Of course, in February, you can only guess at what the starting rotaton will be, let alone how well it will perform. Pitching is such a fragile commodity.