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DirtySox
02-04-2010, 12:47 PM
http://twitter.com/washingnats/status/8642565803

That lineup is looking mighty nice. If the pitching is adequate, I think this team runs away with the division.

Marqhead
02-04-2010, 12:52 PM
They've got all the components. The only thing they are a little short on is SP, but if those 5 are only mediocre at best I still think they are the favorites.

VMSNS
02-04-2010, 12:58 PM
Ugh. I hate the Twins. :angry:

This may put them over the top.

cleanwsox
02-04-2010, 01:00 PM
Worked out pretty good for them since their one need position isn't gaining much interest from the rest of the league.

I'm somewhat surprised Hudson couldn't find a bigger deal somewhere else. I'm sure the Twins aren't breaking the bank for him.

DirtySox
02-04-2010, 01:07 PM
I think a lot of people are under the impression that the Twins have a bad pitching staff. Baker, Blackburn, and Duensing were decent last year and I expect Slowey and Pavano to be average. They also have Perkins/Liriano to play around with as well. While not as good as the Sox staff, they certainly are capable of an average to above average rotation. They have the lineup to slug out a bunch of wins if the pitching falters.

Marqhead
02-04-2010, 01:13 PM
I think alot of people are under the impression that the Twins have a bad pitching staff. Baker, Blackburn, and Duensing were decent last year and I expect Slowey and Pavano to be average. They also have Perkins/Liriano to play around with as well. While not as good as the Sox staff, they certainly are capable of an average to above average rotation. They have the lineup to slug out a bunch of wins if the pitching falters.

I don't think they have a bad rotation, it's just that they don't have a #1 or even really a #2 for that matter. They have a bunch of 3s, 4s and 5s which is fine for them because they have a great pen and a solid offense. Imagine if they still had Santana or 2006 Liriano.

PalehosePlanet
02-04-2010, 01:16 PM
Worked out pretty good for them since their one need position isn't gaining much interest from the rest of the league.

I'm somewhat surprised Hudson couldn't find a bigger deal somewhere else. I'm sure the Twins aren't breaking the bank for him.

You shouldn't be. He was benched in favor of Ronnie Belliard in LA last year, then came into the off-season asking for 9 million a year.

He and his agent are the only ones that seem to think he's a better than average player.

DirtySox
02-04-2010, 01:17 PM
I don't think they have a bad rotation, it's just that they don't have a #1 or even really a #2 for that matter. They have a bunch of 3s, 4s and 5s which is fine for them because they have a great pen and a solid offense. Imagine if they still had Santana or 2006 Liriano.

An accurate assessment. I wonder if this might force KW's hand to get a bat. I think adding O-Dog changes the Twins from slight favorite to clear favorite to win the central.

dickallen15
02-04-2010, 01:23 PM
An accurate assessment. I wonder if this might force KW's hand to get a bat. I think adding O-Dog changes the Twins from slight favorite to clear favorite to win the central.
It only puts them in a better position to compete with the White Sox.

chunk
02-04-2010, 01:29 PM
I don't think they have a bad rotation, it's just that they don't have a #1 or even really a #2 for that matter. They have a bunch of 3s, 4s and 5s which is fine for them because they have a great pen and a solid offense. Imagine if they still had Santana or 2006 Liriano.

Supposedly Liriano looked like his old self a few weeks ago. I definitely see the Twins as the better team right now.

Nellie_Fox
02-04-2010, 01:29 PM
I don't think they have a bad rotation, it's just that they don't have a #1 or even really a #2 for that matter. They have a bunch of 3s, 4s and 5s which is fine for them because they have a great pen and a solid offense. Imagine if they still had Santana or 2006 Liriano.I don't see their pen as "great." They had a lot of trouble getting games to Nathan last year because Nathan was pretty much the only reliable arm they had in the pen.

pythons007
02-04-2010, 01:39 PM
Not worried. Hudson has a history of injury and I'm sure he'll be out again. I still think the Sox have a better shot at winning the division (Look I'm one of the very few on here that is actually optimistic).

Marqhead
02-04-2010, 01:41 PM
I don't see their pen as "great." They had a lot of trouble getting games to Nathan last year because Nathan was pretty much the only reliable arm they had in the pen.

As with most pens they were certainly inconsistent last year, but they have Guerrier, Crain and a couple other solid guys handing the ball to a top 3 closer which in my mind gives them one of the better pens in the league.

JermaineDye05
02-04-2010, 01:54 PM
Olney tweets that it's down to the Twinkies and the Indians.

SI1020
02-04-2010, 02:00 PM
Not worried. Hudson has a history of injury and I'm sure he'll be out again. I still think the Sox have a better shot at winning the division (Look I'm one of the very few on here that is actually optimistic). There is a very strong contingent of optimists here. Some have trouble with any kind of criticism or concern with the team or management.

spawn
02-04-2010, 02:02 PM
There is a very strong contingent of optimists here. Some have trouble with any kind of criticism or concern with the team or management.
You can say that with any team's fanbase.

asindc
02-04-2010, 02:06 PM
Well, I base my reason for not being concerned about this on the fact that Hudson did not tear it up last year. A .774 OPS does not send shivers down my spine. He is better than Punto, so it is an upgrade, but this only slightly upticks them as far as I'm concerned. Their season, as it stands now, rests on how well their starting rotation does and whether they can consistently get the ball to Nathan without incident.

CHISOXFAN13
02-04-2010, 02:09 PM
Was reading that they are also looking to sign Jarrod Washburn.

KMcMahon817
02-04-2010, 02:11 PM
I think a lot of people are under the impression that the Twins have a bad pitching staff. Baker, Blackburn, and Duensing were decent last year and I expect Slowey and Pavano to be average. They also have Perkins/Liriano to play around with as well. While not as good as the Sox staff, they certainly are capable of an average to above average rotation. They have the lineup to slug out a bunch of wins if the pitching falters.

Slowey is probably the second best behind Baker. Blackburn and Duensing are nothing special.

oeo
02-04-2010, 02:13 PM
I think a lot of people are under the impression that the Twins have a bad pitching staff.

Probably because it was a bad pitching staff in 2009. That rotation that you're hyping up was better than only Cleveland and Baltimore in the AL.

They have the lineup to slug out a bunch of wins if the pitching falters.

Worked wonders for us for years. Worked wonders for the Twins in 2009. You're nothing more than mediocre with a bad pitching staff.

KMcMahon817
02-04-2010, 02:15 PM
As with most pens they were certainly inconsistent last year, but they have Guerrier, Crain and a couple other solid guys handing the ball to a top 3 closer which in my mind gives them one of the better pens in the league.


Crain? He puts more fear in Twinkieland faithful when he takes the ball than Linebrink does to Sox fans. He sucks.

g0g0
02-04-2010, 02:33 PM
Olney tweets that it's down to the Twinkies and the Indians.

Maybe the Indians will convince him that they are a sleeper in the division and all of those dumps last year were part of a master plan. Go Indians!

thedudeabides
02-04-2010, 02:38 PM
Well, I base my reason for not being concerned about this on the fact that Hudson did not tear it up last year. A .774 OPS does not send shivers down my spine. He is better than Punto, so it is an upgrade, but this only slightly upticks them as far as I'm concerned. Their season, as it stands now, rests on how well their starting rotation does and whether they can consistently get the ball to Nathan without incident.

It really does. Their starting pitching doesn't scare me. There isn't one guy in that rotation that would crack the top four of the Sox rotation. Their staff and middle relief has a lot of question marks, and more 'if's' than the Sox lineup.

Keep in mind moving out of the dome is also going to hurt their pitchers. I have heard players consistantly talk about how hard it is to pick up the ball in that dome for the first game or two of a series, no matter how many times you played there. Take a look at how poorly the Sox, and other teams for that matter, hit in the first game of a trip there.

Their lineup is no doubt one of the best in baseball, and Hudson is a nice addition to their infeild, but he is digressing defensively and never was anything special in his time in the AL. He was more known for his glove than bat in Toronto.

I think it's going to be an interesting race this year. This is a much different Twins team than we have seen in the past, and how their new stadium plays out is anybodys guess.

Rohan
02-04-2010, 03:00 PM
One word: NOOOOOOO

dickallen15
02-04-2010, 03:02 PM
Well, I base my reason for not being concerned about this on the fact that Hudson did not tear it up last year. A .774 OPS does not send shivers down my spine. He is better than Punto, so it is an upgrade, but this only slightly upticks them as far as I'm concerned. Their season, as it stands now, rests on how well their starting rotation does and whether they can consistently get the ball to Nathan without incident.

Their starting rotation wasn't very good last year with Slowey missing half the season and Liriano stinking the place up and they still won the division. Their offense has been on the upward swing for a couple of years. They weren't beating you with Punto last year. They weren't winning games at least against the White Sox because of the Metrodome. It will be interesting, but I kind of hope Minn getting Hudson may inspire KW to get better, and ditch the plan to play a bat short.

Foulke You
02-04-2010, 03:11 PM
I don't think they have a bad rotation, it's just that they don't have a #1 or even really a #2 for that matter. They have a bunch of 3s, 4s and 5s which is fine for them because they have a great pen and a solid offense. Imagine if they still had Santana or 2006 Liriano.
The Twins also depend on a great defense to help make those 3s, 4s, and 5s look a lot better than they are. It should be noted that they severely weakened their defense at SS by trading for JJ Hardy. It should also be noted that the Twins have always had an advantage at the Metrodome not just for hitting but for pitching as well. The lighting and tough hitters backdrop helped give an edge to their pitchers that visiting staffs did not have. Many visiting hitters complained that it took at least a game or two to get used to hitting there. This advantage will be negated at the outdoor Target Field.

I guess I'm an optimist but I'm not quaking in my boots at this potential Hudson signing. It's a solid move for them but I don't think this is the one that puts them over the top. I still think starting pitching will win this division and if our staff stays healthy, it will be the deciding element.

Craig Grebeck
02-04-2010, 03:15 PM
The Twins also depend on a great defense to help make those 3s, 4s, and 5s look a lot better than they are. It should be noted that they severely weakened their defense at SS by trading for JJ Hardy. It should also be noted that the Twins have always had an advantage at the Metrodome not just for hitting but for pitching as well. The lighting and tough hitters backdrop helped give an edge to their pitchers that visiting staffs did not have. Many visiting hitters complained that it took at least a game or two to get used to hitting there. This advantage will be negated at the outdoor Target Field.

I guess I'm an optimist but I'm not quaking in my boots at this potential Hudson signing. It's a solid move for them but I don't think this is the one that puts them over the top. I still think starting pitching will win this division and if our staff stays healthy, it will be the deciding element.
J.J. Hardy is a very, very good defensive SS. I don't know where you're getting your information.

oeo
02-04-2010, 03:20 PM
Their starting rotation wasn't very good last year with Slowey missing half the season and Liriano stinking the place up and they still won the division. Their offense has been on the upward swing for a couple of years. They weren't beating you with Punto last year. They weren't winning games at least against the White Sox because of the Metrodome. It will be interesting, but I kind of hope Minn getting Hudson may inspire KW to get better, and ditch the plan to play a bat short.

Liriano is not the same pitcher he was four years ago, so let's stop acting like he is.

Yes, they won the division, and a very bad division at that. They were mediocre, and it had everything to do with a bad pitching staff. Ask the Tigers how getting better offensively while ignoring their actual problem worked out for them a couple years ago. '1000 runs', 'Best lineup ever', '2008 World Champs', etc.

dickallen15
02-04-2010, 03:21 PM
The Twins also depend on a great defense to help make those 3s, 4s, and 5s look a lot better than they are. It should be noted that they severely weakened their defense at SS by trading for JJ Hardy. It should also be noted that the Twins have always had an advantage at the Metrodome not just for hitting but for pitching as well. The lighting and tough hitters backdrop helped give an edge to their pitchers that visiting staffs did not have. Many visiting hitters complained that it took at least a game or two to get used to hitting there. This advantage will be negated at the outdoor Target Field.

I guess I'm an optimist but I'm not quaking in my boots at this potential Hudson signing. It's a solid move for them but I don't think this is the one that puts them over the top. I still think starting pitching will win this division and if our staff stays healthy, it will be the deciding element.

As someone who played against the Golden Gophers in the Metrodome in college, I can tell you while there is an adjustment initially to play in there, its fairly brief, especially offensively. Defensively you really have to watch the ball.

For major leaguers, I'm sure they are over their adjustment time, especially if they have played their previously by the end of batting practice.

Corlose 15
02-04-2010, 03:25 PM
I just don't see how Orlando Hudson is a difference maker in this division.

dickallen15
02-04-2010, 03:26 PM
Liriano is not the same pitcher he was four years ago, so let's stop acting like he is.

Yes, they won the division, and a very bad division at that. They were mediocre, and it had everything to do with a bad pitching staff.

There is reason to believe their staff will be better this year. Slowey missed half the season, most of their guys are pretty young. They obviously are good enough to win. That doesn't mean they will.

Craig Grebeck
02-04-2010, 03:27 PM
You shouldn't be. He was benched in favor of Ronnie Belliard in LA last year, then came into the off-season asking for 9 million a year.

He and his agent are the only ones that seem to think he's a better than average player.
Belliard was hitting the **** out of the ball, it's not like Hudson fell off a cliff. He had a poor month at the wrong time.

I just don't see how Orlando Hudson is a difference maker in this division.
I just don't see how he isn't, especially when you consider who he's replacing.

He's a solid player, not great, but he's just another good hitter and fielder on a team full of them.

oeo
02-04-2010, 03:30 PM
There is reason to believe their staff will be better this year. Slowey missed half the season, most of their guys are pretty young. They obviously are good enough to win. That doesn't mean they will.

With that line of thinking, I guess there's reason to believe that the Sox lineup won't suck this year.

It must be a requirement every year for Sox fans to have a boner over the Twins, no matter their makeup.

dickallen15
02-04-2010, 03:35 PM
With that line of thinking, I guess there's reason to believe that the Sox lineup won't suck this year.

For 2010 right now I'd take Minnesota's roster over the White Sox, even if they don't sign Hudson. If KW picks up a legit bat, I probably change my mind. I just don't believe Andruw Jones or Mark Kotsay are any good. I think Omar Vizquel is too old and Mark Teahan mediocre at best. They couldn't get on base enough last year, and they really haven't addressed their poor OBP this offseason, but have relieved themselves of power.

asindc
02-04-2010, 03:36 PM
Belliard was hitting the **** out of the ball, it's not like Hudson fell off a cliff. He had a poor month at the wrong time.


I just don't see how he isn't, especially when you consider who he's replacing.

He's a solid player, not great, but he's just another good hitter and fielder on a team full of them.

I'm really surprised that you consider a .778 OPS hitter good.

Craig Grebeck
02-04-2010, 03:36 PM
If KW signs Damon, I'll gladly say we are favorites. Right now, giving 500+ AB to Vizquel, Kotsay, and Jones, I don't think we're in the picture. That's a crying shame with our rotation.

Craig Grebeck
02-04-2010, 03:38 PM
I'm really surprised that you consider a .778 OPS hitter good.
At 2nd base? Hell yeah. I thought Tadahito was a good hitter for us, and he had two years of .780 and .774 for us.

His 3-year OBP splits: .376/.367/.357.

That may show a downward trend. I don't know -- he can field the ball very well, still, and he's replacing a pile of garbage.

oeo
02-04-2010, 03:44 PM
For 2010 right now I'd take Minnesota's roster over the White Sox, even if they don't sign Hudson. If KW picks up a legit bat, I probably change my mind. I just don't believe Andruw Jones or Mark Kotsay are any good. I think Omar Vizquel is too old and Mark Teahan mediocre at best. They couldn't get on base enough last year, and they really haven't addressed their poor OBP this offseason, but have relieved themselves of power.

To each their own, but the Twins rotation has proven nothing, and they were really bad last year. You say they're young...our rotation is younger AND more proven, just to give some perspective because they're not that young. Scott Baker will turn 29 during the season, and his 2008 doesn't look like it's going to be the norm. Slowey (26 in May) has proven nothing to give you the type of confidence you're giving him (a difference maker? seriously?). Liriano (26) after TJ surgery != Liriano before TJ surgery. Just because Pavano (34) was able to stay healthy for a season does not mean he will again. And even if he does, he would slotted behind Freddy AND Hudson on the Sox, while he's going to be their #3 starter.

Depending on how their park plays, their pitching could be a complete disaster. If it's a hitter's paradise, they're going to be playing a lot of high scoring ballgames, which in turn is going to hurt their bullpen from overwork. You don't win by having an offense carry you on your back from start to finish. You have to have a pulse on the pitching side in order for that work, a la the Yankees and Phillies.

Pitching keeps you in games, which is what the Sox will have. Bring it to the late innings with a close game and you have the recipe for a ton of comebacks. Off nights offensively from the Twins, OTOH, likely mean losses.

Foulke You
02-04-2010, 03:54 PM
J.J. Hardy is a very, very good defensive SS. I don't know where you're getting your information.
I'm going by some Brewers fans that I know who watch the team pretty closely. They say he his stats don't tell the whole story and that he can be Alexei-esque frustrating. I will admit that I haven't seen him play that much other than a handful of games. I do respect their opinions on Hardy though since they saw him play a lot more than me. We'll definitely get a good look at him in 2010 though. I know I'm hoping he falls on his face.:tongue:

dickallen15
02-04-2010, 03:55 PM
To each their own, but the Twins rotation has proven nothing, and they were really bad last year. You say they're young...our rotation is younger AND more proven, just to give some perspective because they're not that young. Scott Baker will turn 29 during the season, and his 2008 doesn't look like it's going to be the norm. Slowey (26 in May) has proven nothing to give you the type of confidence you're giving him (a difference maker? seriously?). Liriano (26) after TJ surgery != Liriano before TJ surgery. Just because Pavano (34) was able to stay healthy for a season does not mean he will again. And even if he does, he would slotted behind Freddy AND Hudson on the Sox, while he's going to be their #3 starter.

Depending on how their park plays, their pitching could be a complete disaster. If it's a hitter's paradise, they're going to be playing a lot of high scoring ballgames, which in turn is going to hurt their bullpen from overwork. You don't win by having an offense carry you on your back from start to finish. You have to have a pulse on the pitching side in order for that work, a la the Yankees and Phillies.

Pitching keeps you in games, which is what the Sox will have. Bring it to the late innings with a close game and you have the recipe for a ton of comebacks. Off nights offensively from the Twins, OTOH, likely mean losses.


The Sox starters had the #2 ERA in the AL last year, yet the team only won 8 games all season when they scored less than 4 runs. It takes more than a few starters to guarantee victory.

Foulke You
02-04-2010, 04:06 PM
As someone who played against the Golden Gophers in the Metrodome in college, I can tell you while there is an adjustment initially to play in there, its fairly brief, especially offensively. Defensively you really have to watch the ball.

For major leaguers, I'm sure they are over their adjustment time, especially if they have played their previously by the end of batting practice.
I think it is very cool that you've actually played at the Dome so you do have a leg to stand on with your opinion. However, catching a large brown football and hitting a small off white colored baseball with movement at 93 mph with a round wooden stick are two vastly different things. Many MLB players have been quoted as saying that during a 4 game set, they usually didn't get used to the lighting until Game 2 or 3 of the series. This was yet another advantage the Twins had playing in that dump. My gut tells me that Ozzie is right and that the "Piranhas" are going to be "Frozen Sardines" at Target Field.

thedudeabides
02-04-2010, 04:09 PM
I'm going by some Brewers fans that I know who watch the team pretty closely. They say he his stats don't tell the whole story and that he can be Alexei-esque frustrating. I will admit that I haven't seen him play that much other than a handful of games. I do respect their opinions on Hardy though since they saw him play a lot more than me. We'll definitely get a good look at him in 2010 though. I know I'm hoping he falls on his face.:tongue:

Defensively, Hardy is a very wierd case. He scores incredibly well in defensive metrics. But, when you talk to Brewers fans, and a lot of scouts, they are not as enamored with his defense. A big reason is because he is so slow, I mean like AJ slow. You will be shocked when you watch him play. He is a very smart defensive player. He gets most of his coverage because his positioning, not from his range. He also has a strong arm. His adjustment to a new set of pitchers and their tendencies will take some time, so I wouldn't be surprised if he struggles a bit defensively out of the box. He's certainly not a liability defensively, but he also isn't as good as some of the metrics make him out to be.

oeo
02-04-2010, 04:13 PM
The Sox starters had the #2 ERA in the AL last year, yet the team only won 8 games all season when they scored less than 4 runs. It takes more than a few starters to guarantee victory.

You can never guarantee victory. But you're right, the bullpen has to be better, and we've also replaced Contreras and Colon/Richard/Torres/whoever with Peavy and Garcia/Hudson. Our rotation's ERA was 2nd in the AL, but it still wasn't all that great. It should improve quite a bit.

spawn
02-04-2010, 04:18 PM
You can never guarantee victory. But you're right, the bullpen has to be better, but we've also replaced Contreras and Colon/Richard/Torres/whoever with Peavy and Garcia/Hudson. Our rotation's ERA was 2nd in the AL, but it still wasn't all that great. It should improve quite a bit.
Giving teams 4 and 5 outs an inning last season also didn't help much.

oeo
02-04-2010, 04:21 PM
Giving teams 4 and 5 outs an inning last season also didn't help much.

Exactly, though some people say we haven't improved at all defensively.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-04-2010, 04:21 PM
There is a very strong contingent of optimists here. Some have trouble with any kind of criticism or concern with the team or management.Some of you have a hard time being hopeful, being worried that you will only be hurt again.

Some of you guys need to be optimistic for once.

WhiteSoxFan84
02-04-2010, 04:44 PM
The Twinkies seem to overachieve when no one is looking and fall flat on their faces when they're predicted to dominate. I just don't think their pitching will hold up. Joe Nathan is the only guy that is legit on that staff (IMO) and we beat his ass last year! :D:

They don't scare me at all. The only team that can beat the 2010 White Sox for the 2010 AL Central Division Title is the 2010 White Sox themselves...... and injuries.

Noneck
02-04-2010, 04:51 PM
As with most pens they were certainly inconsistent last year, but they have Guerrier, Crain and a couple other solid guys handing the ball to a top 3 closer which in my mind gives them one of the better pens in the league.

If Pat Neshek comes back strong, that will help also.

Taliesinrk
02-04-2010, 04:54 PM
I think it is very cool that you've actually played at the Dome so you do have a leg to stand on with your opinion. However, catching a large brown football and hitting a small off white colored baseball with movement at 93 mph with a round wooden stick are two vastly different things. Many MLB players have been quoted as saying that during a 4 game set, they usually didn't get used to the lighting until Game 2 or 3 of the series. This was yet another advantage the Twins had playing in that dump. My gut tells me that Ozzie is right and that the "Piranhas" are going to be "Frozen Sardines" at Target Field.


I don't know Dickallen or his history, but the Gophers play (at least used to) baseball there too.

DirtySox
02-04-2010, 05:35 PM
Done deal.

http://twitter.com/curtiskitchen/status/8650603845

DaveFeelsRight
02-04-2010, 05:48 PM
The Twinkies seem to overachieve when no one is looking and fall flat on their faces when they're predicted to dominate. I just don't think their pitching will hold up. Joe Nathan is the only guy that is legit on that staff (IMO) and we beat his ass last year! :D:

They don't scare me at all. The only team that can beat the 2010 White Sox for the 2010 AL Central Division Title is the 2010 White Sox themselves...... and injuries.what have you been smoking?

JermaineDye05
02-04-2010, 05:53 PM
what have you been smoking?

In reference to the last part of his statement, I think he was merely referring to the one game we got to him. I wouldn't consider that "beat[ing] his ass".

FloridaTigers
02-04-2010, 06:03 PM
Man I hate the Twins so much

october23sp
02-04-2010, 06:16 PM
****...

thomas35forever
02-04-2010, 06:21 PM
The Twins just got better. They're the clear favorites in this division now.

chunk
02-04-2010, 06:38 PM
I'm really surprised that you consider a .778 OPS hitter good.

That kind of production at 2b is actually pretty good and is certainly better than a league average 2nd baseman. Hell, at this point it's better than what we can expect out of most Sox players (LF, 3b, SS, CF, C, DH).

Hudson may not be an impact player, but he certainly upgrades the Twins. Look at it this way. The Twins were a better team than the Sox last year, and have added Hudson (replacing Punto), Thome (replacing Kubel, who now replaces Young), and Hardy (replacing Harris), likely to have Slowey for longer than half the season, and scouts have been raving over how great Liriano has looked recently. Not only were they better than the Sox, but they've improved over that. The Sox have added Teahen, Putz, Jones, and Vizquel. Teahen is a below average bat, especially at 3rd, Putz might be a great reliever if he's healthy, and Jones and Vizquel are in all likelihood junk. Not much improvement for a not that good team, and certainly not enough to catch up to a better team.

dickallen15
02-04-2010, 06:51 PM
I don't know Dickallen or his history, but the Gophers play (at least used to) baseball there too.


Yes, I played baseball against the Gophers.

Noneck
02-04-2010, 07:04 PM
The Twins just got better. They're the clear favorites in this division now.

I believe they always were the favorite.

SoxGirl4Life
02-04-2010, 07:27 PM
shoot me.

TheVulture
02-04-2010, 07:31 PM
The Twins signed Hudson? OMGs the sky is falling!!! Look out!

Taliesinrk
02-04-2010, 07:38 PM
Here's to hoping that this is actually a good thing for the Sox. If we're lucky, it will force KW's hand in having to acquire a hitter.

spawn
02-04-2010, 07:42 PM
So to recap:

The Sox sign: Omar Vizquel and Andrew Jones.

The Twins sign: Jim Thome and Orlando Hudson.

I try not to be a dark cloud...but this just blows my mind. Ozzie had better pray his NL lineup wins the AL Central. I still have confidence that if the DH by committee fails, that KW will sign a big bat. I just hope the division hasn't been lost by then.

asindc
02-04-2010, 07:48 PM
That kind of production at 2b is actually pretty good and is certainly better than a league average 2nd baseman. Hell, at this point it's better than what we can expect out of most Sox players (LF, 3b, SS, CF, C, DH).

Hudson may not be an impact player, but he certainly upgrades the Twins. Look at it this way. The Twins were a better team than the Sox last year, and have added Hudson (replacing Punto), Thome (replacing Kubel, who now replaces Young), and Hardy (replacing Harris), likely to have Slowey for longer than half the season, and scouts have been raving over how great Liriano has looked recently. Not only were they better than the Sox, but they've improved over that. The Sox have added Teahen, Putz, Jones, and Vizquel. Teahen is a below average bat, especially at 3rd, Putz might be a great reliever if he's healthy, and Jones and Vizquel are in all likelihood junk. Not much improvement for a not that good team, and certainly not enough to catch up to a better team.

Please see my earlier post where I made a similar comment about Hudson. By the way, I think you forgot about two other additions for our team, as well as a player on our side that did not play anywhere close to a full season. Of course, that does not include the players being replaced on our side. I know some here don't think replacing Young in the OF with Kubel will have a negative impact on the Twinkees' defense, but I disagree. I assume that by citing Thome you expect him to have a significant impact on their lineup. I do not.

asindc
02-04-2010, 07:58 PM
So to recap:

The Sox sign: Omar Vizquel and Andrew Jones.

The Twins sign: Jim Thome and Orlando Hudson.

I try not to be a dark cloud...but this just blows my mind. Ozzie had better pray his NL lineup wins the AL Central. I still have confidence that if the DH by committee fails, that KW will sign a big bat. I just hope the division hasn't been lost by then.

If you don't mind, I will add to that recap the following:

The Sox sign/acquire:

Peavy (replacing Contreras)
Rios (replacing Wise/BA)
Pierre (replacing Pods)
Teahan (replacing Fields)
Putz (replacing Dotel)


The Twinkees sign/acquire:

Hardy (replacing Harris)
Pavano (replacing ???)

The above does not include the Twinkees getting Neshek back for full season and Sox getting TCQ for full season.

chunk
02-04-2010, 08:02 PM
Please see my earlier post where I made a similar comment about Hudson. By the way, I think you forgot about two other additions for our team, as well as a player on our side that did not play anywhere close to a full season. Of course, that does not include the players being replaced on our side. I know some here don't think replacing Young in the OF with Kubel will have a negative impact on the Twinkees' defense, but I disagree. I assume that by citing Thome you expect him to have a significant impact on their lineup. I do not.

You're right, I forgot about Pierre, who will most likely continue to be terrible. I assume that you think I forgot about Rios. I didn't, because I was talking about the offseason moves and who knows what kind of production he'll provide. Yes, it will be great to have Peavy pitch the whole season. But that too, was not an offseason move. With the exception of Beckham replacing Getz, we haven't really upgraded at any position. But going from Beckham to Teahen is a stepdown.

You don't think Kubel in left and Thome at DH would be significantly better than Young in left and Kubel at DH? It's not like Young is great defensively.


If you don't mind, I will add to that recap the following:

The Sox sign/acquire:

Peavy (replacing Contreras)
Rios (replacing Wise/BA)
Pierre (replacing Pods)
Teahan (replacing Fields)
Putz (replacing Dotel)


The Twinkees sign/acquire:

Hardy (replacing Harris)
Pavano (replacing ???)

The above does not include the Twinkees getting Neshek back for full season and Sox getting TCQ for full season.

I think this is somewhat disingenuous because Rios and Peavy were midseason moves and made with 2009 in mind as well as the future. If we're including midseason moves the Twins also added Rauch. The problem is that the Sox haven't done anything to improve since the start of the offseason. Teahen is not replacing Fields. Teahen is replacing Beckham, who is replacing Getz. Pierre is replacing TCQ, who is replacing Dye.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-04-2010, 08:30 PM
Hey guys. by the way. The guys not that good...

I'd take Rios over him any day, who cares that Rios has a bad year... geeze.
Them losing Cabrera kind of sucks don't it? Oh, and the little bit of Crede they had? Thome is a waist of a roster spot, and their pitching isn't all that great. You guys are showing more Twin love than the Hawk does.

veeter
02-04-2010, 08:31 PM
Let's see how they play while actually being considered the favorite. The target is now on their backs.

asindc
02-04-2010, 08:32 PM
You're right, I forgot about Pierre, who will most likely continue to be terrible. I assume that you think I forgot about Rios. I didn't, because I was talking about the offseason moves and who knows what kind of production he'll provide. Yes, it will be great to have Peavy pitch the whole season. But that too, was not an offseason move. With the exception of Beckham replacing Getz, we haven't really upgraded at any position. But going from Beckham to Teahen is a stepdown.

You don't think Kubel in left and Thome at DH would be significantly better than Young in left and Kubel at DH? It's not like Young is great defensively.




I think this is somewhat disingenuous because Rios and Peavy were midseason moves and made with 2009 in mind as well as the future. If we're including midseason moves the Twins also added Rauch. The problem is that the Sox haven't done anything to improve since the start of the offseason. Teahen is not replacing Fields. Teahen is replacing Beckham, who is replacing Getz. Pierre is replacing TCQ, who is replacing Dye.

I'm looking at it from this standpoint: If the players who were acquired since the beginning of last season had played for each team, how much more do you think the Twinkees have improved versus the Sox? How much did each of those players impact the final outcome of the 2009 season versus the players they replaced? I count Rios, Peavy, Pavano, and (I forgot about) Rauch as additions for the 2010 season since none of those players played a majority of their games last year with their current teams. Hence, they are upgrades over what the teams had for most of the 2009 season. You and I disagree about Pierre. He will give us at least the same offense as Pods and is a definite upgrade over Pods on defense. He is not terrible.

Speaking of which, no I do not think Kubel-LF/Thome-DH is an upgrade over Young-LF/Kubel-DH. Young is a slightly below defensive player who got the vast majority of starts in LF last year for the Twinkees when Kubel was available to play LF. Why? Because Kubel is even worse than Young defensively, and his banged-up knees won't allow him to get any better. Besides, I don't think Thome will play enough to matter.

As far as Teahan is concerned, he is replacing Getz/Nix's offensive production, as well as Fields' 79 games of woe (since we will still have Beckham's offensive production) and Beckham's defense at 3B. Improvement on offense, wash on defense. Beckham is replacing Getz/Nix's defense. Improvement on defense.

chunk
02-04-2010, 08:35 PM
^^ see, I guess it's hard to say because the smart and obvious move is Thome Dh Kubel Left, but Gardenhire is actually quite like Ozzie and loves his bunting and grinding, so Young probably will get significant PT. And then the rotating OF thing makes it hard to compare since it's now Pierre Rios TCQ, instead of 2009's TCQ Pods Rios Dye. How will we replace Dye's production? but that's another conversation all together. If anything, the major roster overhaul which led to the confusion is an indictment on KW's inability to construct a solid team two of the last three seasons.

I've heard the Kubel is actually getting healthy, plus I would question whether the defensive downgrade is larger than the offensive upgrade.

Hey guys. by the way. The guys not that good...

I'd take Rios over him any day, who cares that Rios has a bad year... geeze.
Them losing Cabrera kind of sucks don't it? Oh, and the little bit of Crede they had? Thome is a waist of a roster spot, and their pitching isn't all that great. You guys are showing more Twin love than the Hawk does.

You're gonna say them losing Crede sucks but that Thome is a waste of a roster spot? Really?

Rdy2PlayBall
02-04-2010, 08:51 PM
You're gonna say them losing Crede sucks but that Thome is a waste of a roster spot? Really?They have a DH, that would have produced what Thome is going to produce for them. They didn't need him. And I didn't say losing Crede sucked... that was you putting my sentences together. What little bit of Crede they had is gone. All this production from these players adds up. They haven't improved that much by adding this 60rbi 10HR guy. Some of you pissed your pants crying over getting Teahen... which I say is the same type of producer with more potential IMO.

ESPN always underestimates the Sox, and a lot of you are falling into their trap...
(not aimed at you chuck or anyone specific... you didn't really say anything that make me say this to you

Is this a Sox form? When the Sox are good, they are always supposed to be the favorites... :scratch:

Corlose 15
02-04-2010, 08:54 PM
That kind of production at 2b is actually pretty good and is certainly better than a league average 2nd baseman. Hell, at this point it's better than what we can expect out of most Sox players (LF, 3b, SS, CF, C, DH).

Hudson may not be an impact player, but he certainly upgrades the Twins. Look at it this way. The Twins were a better team than the Sox last year, and have added Hudson (replacing Punto), Thome (replacing Kubel, who now replaces Young), and Hardy (replacing Harris), likely to have Slowey for longer than half the season, and scouts have been raving over how great Liriano has looked recently. Not only were they better than the Sox, but they've improved over that. The Sox have added Teahen, Putz, Jones, and Vizquel. Teahen is a below average bat, especially at 3rd, Putz might be a great reliever if he's healthy, and Jones and Vizquel are in all likelihood junk. Not much improvement for a not that good team, and certainly not enough to catch up to a better team.

Even though Peavy was acquired at the trade deadeline he's a lock to make more than 3 starts this year for the Sox so he can be considered an offseason addition. There is no reason to think that Putz isn't healthy since he had the surgery quite a while ago and we've heard nothing but good things about his progression.

As for your OPS arguments, before last year Rios hadn't had an OPS below .798 since '05, and Ramirez had an .792 OPS in '08.

The last time Teahen wasn't jerked all around the field and he posted an .874 OPS. Now he's being moved back to a position that he's most comfortable in and into a ballpark where he figures to hit more homeruns than he did in KC. It's not out of the realm of possibility that his numbers could improve. It's also not out of the realm of possibilty that Ramirez could rebound back up to his rookie year levels or that Rios could go back to his career average levels.

Here's the kicker, Andruw Jones last year posted an OPS of .782:cool::D:

Twins_Morneau
02-04-2010, 10:33 PM
Gotta hand it to Mauer, he sure is forcing management to make moves before he signs.

DumpJerry
02-04-2010, 10:55 PM
Well, might as well sell all my season tickets before nobody wants 'em. According to WSI, the Sox have no chance this year.

FGarcia34
02-04-2010, 11:33 PM
are we seriously concerned about orlando hudson?!?!

dont get me wrong, the guy is a solid ball player but he's not really that big of a threat.

his addition makes the twinks lineup very nice, but it's really difficult to win in the american league without top of the line pitching. they just don't have the horses to do it.

as for our dh situation, i still think they are doing this in a trial and error. i think everyone is going to get their shot at it during the first half, and if it gets bad enough we could even see viciedo get his shot as well...but if we are in it at the trade deadline, and our only hole is needing a hitter, i have complete faith that kenny will put the right pieces together for a division championship.

plus, they we no longer have to play in the homer dome. we sucked so bad in there that it seriously couldnt get any worse at a new ballpark.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
02-04-2010, 11:49 PM
are we seriously concerned about orlando hudson?!?! Evidently.

dont get me wrong, the guy is a solid ball player but he's not really that big of a threat. Well, judging from the reaction, it seems like the guy is what Albert Pujols aspires to be.

his addition makes the twinks lineup very nice (agreed) but it's really difficult to win in the american league without top of the line pitching. they just don't have the horses to do it. Unfortunately, they somehow did last year.

as for our dh situation, i still think they are doing this in a trial and error. (which is not the best way to go if you otherwise have the pieces to contend) i think everyone is going to get their shot at it during the first half, and if it gets bad enough we could even see viciedo get his shot as well (God forbid.) but if we are in it at the trade deadline, and our only hole is needing a hitter, i have complete faith that kenny will put the right pieces together for a division championship. Definitely...let's hope the Padres/Nats are so out of it that they have no choice but to give up Gonzalez or more realistically, Dunn...but let's also hope that our offense can at least tread water until then.

plus, they we no longer have to play in the homer dome. we sucked so bad in there that it seriously couldnt get any worse at a new ballpark.

My comments in purple.

OzzieBall2004
02-05-2010, 12:30 AM
My comments in purple.

I hope purple is the new teal and I'm just way behind.

They somehow did last year? Yeah, that's absolutely right...somehow...meaning it defied logic. They kept their act together and watched the first place team self-destruct. Detroit's first basemen...the one they expect to bat .300, hit 35 home runs, and drive in 110+ runs...went on a late night bender during the biggest series of their season. But then again, David Wells claims to have thrown a perfect game while he was still drunk, so maybe that doesn't mean a damn thing.

We also have Peavy now. The 2007-2009 Cy Young winners have been Greinke, Lincecum, Cliff Lee, Sabathia, and Peavy. We have one of the best pitchers in all of baseball. Please accept that. Bartolo Colon started 12 games for us last year...that's almost 10% of the season.

Dwell on the DH crap all you want, but remember that our DH in 2005 hit .251/.311 with 23 bombs in 135 games. I'm not saying that's adequate or something to strive for, but at least it tells me you can have a below average DH and still win a World Series. You act like getting Adrian Gonzalez would just make this team competitive...if we got him we'd have to be favorites to make the ALCS. We'd be adding a lefty power bat and a gold glove first basemen. We'd be adding one of the 10 best all around players in baseball. I don't think that's going to happen and I'm not banking on it, but don't act like our only shot this year is adding one of the best players in the game.

tm1119
02-05-2010, 12:41 AM
If the rumors are true that Liriano looks healthy and his former self then , yes, we are in trouble here. But until I see that, we still have just as good of a shot as they do. Their pitching is weak without Liriano being good, that is going to hurt their chances at being a good team. As of right now we are both mediocre teams. It will most likely come down to who stays healthiest, or what team can have a breakout/surprise season from an unsuspected player. This of course is assuming that no further moves are made by either team.


I would also like to add that when mentioning the Twins moves no one has mentioned JJ Hardy. If he has a bounce back year and hits .270 with 20 hr's their lineup is going to be pretty sick.

CF- Spann
2B- O. Hudson
C- Mauer
1B- Morneau
DH- Kuble/Thome
RF- Cuddyer
SS- Hardy
LF- Young
3B- Harris(?)

Thats going to be a hard lineup to out score.

WhiteSoxFan84
02-05-2010, 12:53 AM
Did the Twins sign Orlando Hudson or Albert Pujols better looking, yet equally talented brother, Alejandro Pujols?

Bottomline is this: on paper, the Sox are a better team than the Twins. I'll go as far as to say MUCH better.

I just can't see how anyone can tell me that the following --Baker/Slowey/Pavano/Blackburn/Duensing or Liriano -- is better than this;
Peavy/Buehrle/Floyd/Danks/Garcia.

Factor in the new stadium the Twins will be playing in and that alone could completely change the way this team has to play ball. They'll still be managed by a great bunch, but this transition from indoors to outdoors in the freezing cold come April, May, and September, may be a little too much for them to get used to in just one year.

I usually fear them but not this year. Mauer, Morneau, and Cuddyer will still do their thing offensively. Nathan will probably remain dominant. A couple of the arms in the rotation will have solid seasons. But that's it. These make shift rotations, bullpens, and lineups have to run their course eventually.

Four final points:
1) Thome will hurt them with his strikeouts in huge situations.
2) Trading Carlos Gomez may come back to bite them in the butt. He seemed like the spark plug of the team and I might be completely mistaken here, but he may have been a much bigger influence in the clubhouse than we'll ever know.
3) Hudson is a Sox killer (.363/.415/.965, 33 H, 10 XBH, 23 RBI, in 91 ABs), so get ready to hear that from Hawk each time he comes up to bat.
4) But! Hudson sucks when it (usually) matters most, .252 career BA in the month of September (502 ABs), including .227 last September.

stevemcstud
02-05-2010, 01:01 AM
Just whipped this up real quick:

Span - .311 / 23SB / 8HR vs. Pierre - .308 / 30SB / 0HR

Hudson - .283 / 8SB / 9HR / 62 RBI vs. Ramirez - .277 / 14SB / 15HR / 68RBI

Mauer - .365 / 28HR / 96 RBI vs. Quentin .236 / 21 HR / 56 RBI (hurt last year, projects out at 30HR 90 RBI for the season)

Morneau - .274 / 30HR / 100 RBI vs. Konerko - .277 / 28HR / 88 RBI

Cuddyer - .276 / 32HR / 94 RBI vs. AJ Pierzynski - .300 / 14 HR / 49 HR

Kubel - .300 / 28HR / 103 RBI vs. Jones - .220 / 34 HR / 86 RBI (projected full season based on last year. If you mix in Kotsay against RHP who had a .290 BA last year against them you wide up more like .250 / 29 HR / 80 RBI)

Hardy - .229 / 11HR / 47 RBI vs. Teahen - .271 / 12 HR / 50 RBI

Young - .284 / 12HR / 60 RBI vs. Beckham - .270 / 14 HR / 63 RBI (called up in late May)

Punto - .228 / 1HR / 38RBI / 16SB vs. Rios - .247 / 17HR / 71 RBI / 24 SB

What does all this add up to?

Twins BA = .272 White Sox BA = .271

Twins HR = 162 White Sox HR = 159

MtGrnwdSoxFan
02-05-2010, 01:28 AM
I hope purple is the new teal and I'm just way behind. Nope. That's just the color I use to make my points when I don't feel like breaking a quote into separate pieces.

They somehow did last year? Yeah, that's absolutely right...somehow...meaning it defied logic. (Indeed.) They kept their act together and watched the first place team self-destruct. (Not arguing that.) Detroit's first basemen...the one they expect to bat .300, hit 35 home runs, and drive in 110+ runs (and considering he hit .324-34-103, I can't say their expectations are unjustified)...went on a late night bender during the biggest series of their season. (That just proves Cabrera is an idiot, not that he ultimately didn't live up to his offensive expectations) But then again, David Wells claims to have thrown a perfect game while he was still drunk, so maybe that doesn't mean a damn thing.

We also have Peavy now. The 2007-2009 Cy Young winners have been Greinke, Lincecum, Cliff Lee, Sabathia, and Peavy. We have one of the best pitchers in all of baseball. Please accept that. (Believe me, I'm trying, but it's hard to believe that a Cy Young winner just fell onto our laps like that) Bartolo Colon started 12 games for us last year...that's almost 10% of the season. You seem to have me confused for one of the guys that thinks our situation is hopeless...I never said such a thing.

Dwell on the DH crap all you want, but remember that our DH in 2005 hit .251/.311 with 23 bombs in 135 games. I'm not saying that's adequate or something to strive for, but at least it tells me you can have a below average DH and still win a World Series. (Correct, but we also had a multi-faceted offense that year. This year seems to be a bit lacking in the power department, even if Quentin and Konerko return to their normal power levels. You can't deny that.) You act like getting Adrian Gonzalez would just make this team competitive...if we got him we'd have to be favorites to make the ALCS. (Where did I say that adding Gonzalez would "just" make this team competitive? With this staff, we could have a team of 9 Neifi Perez-es and still be close to .500) We'd be adding a lefty power bat and a gold glove first basemen. We'd be adding one of the 10 best all around players in baseball. I don't think that's going to happen and I'm not banking on it, but don't act like our only shot this year is adding one of the best players in the game. (I never was, hence the "realistically, Adam Dunn would be a likelier option" statement following that. The context being that if the Sox were in striking distance, but still having some trouble with the offense, that they would go out and get a solid hitter on a hopeless team looking to shed payroll. As is now, this team is a contender for the AL Central. If we get a masher like Dunn...well, I feel we can switch "AL Central" with "World Series")

I'm not a ledge jumper, but this offense, and namely this little DH experiment, concerns me. I just don't want to see this awesome staff wasted by a subpar offense.

WhiteSox5187
02-05-2010, 02:52 AM
Just whipped this up real quick:

Span - .311 / 23SB / 8HR vs. Pierre - .308 / 30SB / 0HR

Hudson - .283 / 8SB / 9HR / 62 RBI vs. Ramirez - .277 / 14SB / 15HR / 68RBI

Mauer - .365 / 28HR / 96 RBI vs. Quentin .236 / 21 HR / 56 RBI (hurt last year, projects out at 30HR 90 RBI for the season)

Morneau - .274 / 30HR / 100 RBI vs. Konerko - .277 / 28HR / 88 RBI

Cuddyer - .276 / 32HR / 94 RBI vs. AJ Pierzynski - .300 / 14 HR / 49 HR

Kubel - .300 / 28HR / 103 RBI vs. Jones - .220 / 34 HR / 86 RBI (projected full season based on last year. If you mix in Kotsay against RHP who had a .290 BA last year against them you wide up more like .250 / 29 HR / 80 RBI)

Hardy - .229 / 11HR / 47 RBI vs. Teahen - .271 / 12 HR / 50 RBI

Young - .284 / 12HR / 60 RBI vs. Beckham - .270 / 14 HR / 63 RBI (called up in late May)

Punto - .228 / 1HR / 38RBI / 16SB vs. Rios - .247 / 17HR / 71 RBI / 24 SB

What does all this add up to?

Twins BA = .272 White Sox BA = .271

Twins HR = 162 White Sox HR = 159

I never ever ever thought I'd make this argument, but what are the respective OBPs that go with this? Also, your projections for Jones are, well, projections, can he stay healthy enough to do that for us consistently? The Red Sox thought so little of Kotsay they DFA'd him for god's sake not to mention he has health issues as well, you also have Quentin in there and are assuming he can stay healthy. Ditto with Konerko.

Now, IF Jones can stay healthy and manages to find his form, if Kotsay played like he did for us last year, if Konerko can stay healthy, if Quentin can stay healthy and put up '08 numbers for us and if Pierre can put up an OBP better than his .330ish one for LA and the Cubs, we'll be fine! But, those are a hell of a lot of ifs.

doublem23
02-05-2010, 03:02 AM
We are in ****ing trouble.

oeo
02-05-2010, 04:15 AM
If the rumors are true that Liriano looks healthy and his former self then , yes, we are in trouble here.

All because he dominated winter ball. :lol: Give him the Cy Young right now! Did his devastating slider magically appear again in a few months? Take a look at Kerry Wood's slider during his 20 strikeout game and what happened to it after TJ surgery.

We are in ****ing trouble.

No we're ****ing not. And much like in July when people were posting the same things after the Tigers acquired Jarrod Washburn, the player won't be a difference maker. They would have been better off spending that money on some pitching.

RedHeadPaleHoser
02-05-2010, 07:00 AM
I'm not a ledge jumper, but this offense, and namely this little DH experiment, concerns me. I just don't want to see this awesome staff wasted by a subpar offense.

I believe.

I believe KW will step in to save this team in the event that the current DH setup is ineffective.

I believe the White Sox have invested in their starting rotation for the next 2-3 years and will not let one side of the game cause the other to go down in flames.

Bring on the Twins. The games count when they are played.

It's Friday, and I'm in a good ****ing mood. Pitchers and catchers report in two weeks. :gulp:

spawn
02-05-2010, 07:22 AM
If you don't mind, I will add to that recap the following:

The Sox sign/acquire:

Peavy (replacing Contreras)
Rios (replacing Wise/BA)
Pierre (replacing Pods)
Teahan (replacing Fields)
Putz (replacing Dotel)


The Twinkees sign/acquire:

Hardy (replacing Harris)
Pavano (replacing ???)

The above does not include the Twinkees getting Neshek back for full season and Sox getting TCQ for full season.
Yeah, I know. My post was just an initial reaction to the signing. I think the Sox are definitely improved over what we started last season with. The DH by committee thing just makes me nervous.

I think I'll back away from the ledge now...:tongue:

asindc
02-05-2010, 08:15 AM
I never ever ever thought I'd make this argument, but what are the respective OBPs that go with this? Also, your projections for Jones are, well, projections, can he stay healthy enough to do that for us consistently? The Red Sox thought so little of Kotsay they DFA'd him for god's sake not to mention he has health issues as well, you also have Quentin in there and are assuming he can stay healthy. Ditto with Konerko.

Now, IF Jones can stay healthy and manages to find his form, if Kotsay played like he did for us last year, if Konerko can stay healthy, if Quentin can stay healthy and put up '08 numbers for us and if Pierre can put up an OBP better than his .330ish one for LA and the Cubs, we'll be fine! But, those are a hell of a lot of ifs.

I hope you don't mind if I add a few more ifs:

... if Liriano can stay healthy and manages to find his form...
... if Thome plays like he did last year (for the Sox)...
... if Mauer's back holds up while catching...
... if Kubel's knees hold up while playing more games in the OF...
... if Morneau can stay healthy and put up '08 numbers, and
... if Hardy can put up an OBP better than his .320ish for Milwaukee the past four years, the Twinkees will be fine!


Those are also a hell of a lot of ifs, enough to make a Twinkees fan say
We are in ****ing trouble.

salty99
02-05-2010, 08:22 AM
We were in trouble before this signing. How do I know? Baseball Prospectus says so!!!

CPditka
02-05-2010, 08:52 AM
O-dog is a really nice signing. I can only hope this put a little pressure on KW/JR to sign Damon.

On paper the Twins are tough. That makes my skin crawl.

tstrike2000
02-05-2010, 09:25 AM
Nice signing for them, unfortunately.

Hitmen77
02-05-2010, 10:12 AM
Dwell on the DH crap all you want, but remember that our DH in 2005 hit .251/.311 with 23 bombs in 135 games. I'm not saying that's adequate or something to strive for, but at least it tells me you can have a below average DH and still win a World Series.

First of all, the concerns over DH aren't "crap". This isn't the NL, the pennant contenders in the AL are going to fill this spot in the lineup with solid offensive producers. The apparent plan to go with bench players likely puts us at a big disadvantage if we expect this team to be a pennant contender.

Second, I hope KW isn't making his decisions expecting Jones/Kotsay to hit .251 with 23 HRs, because that's a long shot to happen. I also sure hope he's not thinking "well, we won the World Series with weak production at DH in 2005, therefore we can go all the way this year with bench players at DH!". I'm sick and tired of people citing the 2005 DH numbers, it doesn't mean that the Sox can just blow off this spot in the lineup in 2010.

You act like getting Adrian Gonzalez would just make this team competitive...if we got him we'd have to be favorites to make the ALCS. We'd be adding a lefty power bat and a gold glove first basemen. We'd be adding one of the 10 best all around players in baseball. I don't think that's going to happen and I'm not banking on it, but don't act like our only shot this year is adding one of the best players in the game. Is this supposed to be in deep pink? I don't know why people think, if we go into the season with bench players for our DH, that means we'll have A. Gonzalez land in our laps in June. To be honest, we most likely don't have the farm system depth to outbid other teams for his services.

DirtySox
02-05-2010, 10:27 AM
Twins payroll is sitting around 96 million with this signing. Rumor has it they are still after Washburn too.

khan
02-05-2010, 10:33 AM
The twins have a 2nd freaking baseman that will likely have a higher OPS than our ****ing DH. [Yeah, Andruw Jones had a .782 OPS, but that was in limited duty, on a GREAT offensive team, and represents his BEST OPS in 4 years...]

KW has to fix this. While we all pump up the starting pitching, the sad truth is that there is a higher correlation between a team's offense and eventual success.

Again:

The top 4 runs scoring teams in the AL last year all went to the playoffs. NONE of the top 6 team ERAs in the AL made the playoffs. The SOX offense sucked a horse's ass last year, and it appears that scant improvements have been made hereto fore. And there are more than one team in the AL Central alone that have better offenses than our SOX.

KenBerryGrab
02-05-2010, 10:47 AM
The Twins are "out-Soxing" us.

russ99
02-05-2010, 10:49 AM
O-dog is a really nice signing. I can only hope this put a little pressure on KW/JR to sign Damon.

On paper the Twins are tough. That makes my skin crawl.

On paper means nothing...

If the porch in right at Target Field is a short as some say, their pitching is going to take a big hit.

Let's see some real games before freaking out about how great the Twins are and how doomed the Sox are over one position in the batting order...

I still maintain the Sox will score plenty of runs, just not as much of the "station-to-station wish for a 3-run homer" variety.

thedudeabides
02-05-2010, 10:59 AM
The twins have a 2nd freaking baseman that will likely have a higher OPS than our ****ing DH. [Yeah, Andruw Jones had a .782 OPS, but that was in limited duty, on a GREAT offensive team, and represents his BEST OPS in 4 years...]

KW has to fix this. While we all pump up the starting pitching, the sad truth is that there is a higher correlation between a team's offense and eventual success.

Again:

The top 4 runs scoring teams in the AL last year all went to the playoffs. NONE of the top 6 team ERAs in the AL made the playoffs. The SOX offense sucked a horse's ass last year, and it appears that scant improvements have been made hereto fore. And there are more than one team in the AL Central alone that have better offenses than our SOX.

I see you repeatedly using this argument, but that was one year. In 2008 the playoff teams offense was 2,5,9, and 11 in scoring. While the pitching rankings were 2,3,4, and 6.

There are plently of examples of teams throughtout the decade that have had great pitching and mediocre hitting in the playoffs and winning pennants. More so than slugging teams in the lower half in pitching.

The bottom line is there are more ways than one to win in baseball. If the Sox don't have a top 5 offense, they aren't screwed.

voodoochile
02-05-2010, 11:08 AM
I see you repeatedly using this argument, but that was one year. In 2008 the playoff teams offense was 2,5,9, and 11 in scoring. While the pitching rankings were 2,3,4, and 6.

There are plently of examples of teams throughtout the decade that have had great pitching and mediocre hitting in the playoffs and winning pennants. More so than slugging teams in the lower half in pitching.

The bottom line is there are more ways than one to win in baseball. If the Sox don't have a top 5 offense, they aren't screwed.

Holy crap you mean someone used selective stats to defend their position? No ****ing way...:rolleyes:

I do find it interesting that the Twinkees seem to have so quickly changed their makeup and philosophy now that they are playing outdoors. I wonder if they are expecting it to be a serious hitter's park.

CPditka
02-05-2010, 11:10 AM
I know its just "on paper" but thats all we have to go off of right now. Chances are one of Thome or Hudson will be hurt by Memorial day and i'll feel better. But for now, Id really like a DH.


On paper means nothing...

If the porch in right at Target Field is a short as some say, their pitching is going to take a big hit.

Let's see some real games before freaking out about how great the Twins are and how doomed the Sox are over one position in the batting order...

I still maintain the Sox will score plenty of runs, just not as much of the "station-to-station wish for a 3-run homer" variety.

TheOldRoman
02-05-2010, 11:14 AM
The twins have a 2nd freaking baseman that will likely have a higher OPS than our ****ing DH. [Yeah, Andruw Jones had a .782 OPS, but that was in limited duty, on a GREAT offensive team, and represents his BEST OPS in 4 years...]

KW has to fix this. While we all pump up the starting pitching, the sad truth is that there is a higher correlation between a team's offense and eventual success.

Again:

The top 4 runs scoring teams in the AL last year all went to the playoffs. NONE of the top 6 team ERAs in the AL made the playoffs. The SOX offense sucked a horse's ass last year, and it appears that scant improvements have been made hereto fore. And there are more than one team in the AL Central alone that have better offenses than our SOX.-A full year of Beckham
-Alexei with another year under his belt after struggling but improving in some areas last year
-Teahen replacing Getz, and having the security of settling at his natural position
-A full year of normal Rios (unless you think he will continue to hit his weight) replacing Wise/Anderson
-A full year of healthy Quentin (which he is at this point)
-Having a leadoff hitter the entire season

Not all of those were offseason moves, but sometimes you can count on improvement from young guys and bounce backs from guys with track records who had ****ty years. I am not saying that the offense will be great or that Kenny should stop looking for a DH, but I think the offense is significantly improved in several areas.

Pablo_Honey
02-05-2010, 11:20 AM
KW has to fix this. While we all pump up the starting pitching, the sad truth is that there is a higher correlation between a team's offense and eventual success.
Here's a very simple fact: Kenny is not God. He likes to trade away prospects but besides Hudson and Flowers, we have no one else that other teams want. Kenny just can't create these prospects out of thin air. Sure, Kenny could trade Hudson and Flowers but unless it's A-Gon Kenny's bringing back (which has a probability as good as being struck by lightning 3 times and survive) the cost is too much.

Besides, the offense has potential to be good. Granted, it will be great if and only if both Ramirez, Rios, Quentin, Beckham and Teahen play up to their potentials. However, all these guys are young and the end result will be a rather cost-effective young offense. Adding a decent bat to be our DH will have very little impact on our offense. I don't like Jones/Kotsay as DH but I would hate it even more if we ponied up like 6 mil for Damon.

The top 4 runs scoring teams in the AL last year all went to the playoffs. NONE of the top 6 team ERAs in the AL made the playoffs.
Just being a little nitpicky here: Boston and New York were in the top 6 for team ERA and they made the postseason just fine.

khan
02-05-2010, 11:24 AM
The bottom line is there are more ways than one to win in baseball. If the Sox don't have a top 5 offense, they aren't screwed.
I agree with this. But this SOX team doesn't even look to have an AVERAGE offense. This SOX team looks like the offense will be craptacular, when compared to the immediate competition.

The other thing I take issue with is this tendency on the part of KW to construct incomplete teams. He did so in 2007, 2003, 2004, and this year's team looks to be incomplete as well. When he made the effort to put together more complete teams [i.e. without OBVIOUS holes, as he did in 2005, 2006, and 2008] the team is competitive.

thedudeabides
02-05-2010, 11:27 AM
I agree with this. But this SOX team doesn't even look to have an AVERAGE offense. This SOX team looks like the offense will be craptacular, when compared to the immediate competition.

The other thing I take issue with is this tendency on the part of KW to construct incomplete teams. He did so in 2007, 2003, 2004, and this year's team looks to be incomplete as well. When he made the effort to put together more complete teams [i.e. without OBVIOUS holes, as he did in 2005, 2006, and 2008] the team is competitive.

I think this team has less holes than any team we've fielded since 2006. The biggest hole is the easiest to replace. A bat that fields any position on the diamond. Much, much easier than starting pitching, CF, or SS.

khan
02-05-2010, 11:28 AM
Holy crap you mean someone used selective stats to defend their position? No ****ing way...:rolleyes:
For brevity's sake, yes.

But take the opposing view for a moment:

Do you LIKE having what looks like a ****ty DH situation? Do you LIKE the fact that the division's pre-season favorites are likely to have a better lineup than the SOX? Do you LIKE the fact that their 2nd baseman will likely produce better than the SOX's DH?

I do find it interesting that the Twinkees seem to have so quickly changed their makeup and philosophy now that they are playing outdoors. I wonder if they are expecting it to be a serious hitter's park.
Maybe their superior scouting, high-quality field management, and intelligent front office know something that the SOX don't.

You know, like its the ****ING AMERICAN LEAGUE, not the weak-sauce NL. And you're allowed to have a DH, and some offense. [Just a guess, though...]

khan
02-05-2010, 11:41 AM
-A full year of Beckham
-Alexei with another year under his belt after struggling but improving in some areas last year
-Teahen replacing Getz, and having the security of settling at his natural position
-A full year of normal Rios (unless you think he will continue to hit his weight) replacing Wise/Anderson
-A full year of healthy Quentin (which he is at this point)
-Having a leadoff hitter the entire season

1. While I believe that Beckham will improve, I think that it is reasonable to be wary of him having a sophomore slump.
2. Alexei is in the prime of his career. [He'll be 29 in Sept.] He is what he is. He is unlikely to make much improvement, unless he and Andruw start injecting each other a la Clemens and Canseco.
3. Teahen is not an offensive plus at his position. Other 3rd basemen produce much more than he will. Added to this is that he's not a plus defender.
4. Rios and Quentin have to PROVE it. One has been a china doll, the other has been weighed down by his obese contract. Until they show otherwise, they remain question marks.
5. The most irritating thing to me is KW not assembling a complete team. Sure, we'll have a leadoff man all year. But many [this poster included] still see a YAWNING hole in the lineup. He STILL has assembled an incomplete team, with respect to a DH situation that very well might be ****ty.

-Not all of those were offseason moves, but sometimes you can count on improvement from young guys and bounce backs from guys with track records who had ****ty years.
Who has a "track record?"
Quentin has a "track record" of getting injured.
Rios has a "track record" of statistical decline in recent seasons.
Teahen has a "track record" of being a lesser offensive player at his position, when compared to his peers at 3rd base.
Oh, and BTW, Konerko has a "track record" of sucking for months at a time. [He's also going to be 34 years old on Opening Day.]

-I am not saying that the offense will be great or that Kenny should stop looking for a DH, but I think the offense is significantly improved in several areas.
I'm not being negative, but presenting a balanced view. While our competitors in Minnesota have ADDED to their lineup, our SOX have added a few bench players and improved the DH's defense. That, and $2.00 will get you a ride on the CTA, unless you're a senior citizen.

asindc
02-05-2010, 11:42 AM
For brevity's sake, yes.

But take the opposing view for a moment:

Do you LIKE having what looks like a ****ty DH situation? Do you LIKE the fact that the division's pre-season favorites are likely to have a better lineup than the SOX? Do you LIKE the fact that their 2nd baseman will likely produce better than the SOX's DH?


Maybe their superior scouting, high-quality field management, and intelligent front office know something that the SOX don't.

You know, like its the ****ING AMERICAN LEAGUE, not the weak-sauce NL. And you're allowed to have a DH, and some offense. [Just a guess, though...]

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2421741&postcount=118

voodoochile
02-05-2010, 11:44 AM
For brevity's sake, yes.

But take the opposing view for a moment:

Do you LIKE having what looks like a ****ty DH situation? Do you LIKE the fact that the division's pre-season favorites are likely to have a better lineup than the SOX? Do you LIKE the fact that their 2nd baseman will likely produce better than the SOX's DH?


Maybe their superior scouting, high-quality field management, and intelligent front office know something that the SOX don't.

You know, like its the ****ING AMERICAN LEAGUE, not the weak-sauce NL. And you're allowed to have a DH, and some offense. [Just a guess, though...]

I'm not going to sit here and freak out over might bes which won't be known until a few months into the season.

I know... I know... calls for calm should be met with derision and sneers, preferably while looking down the nose at us unfortunates who just don't understand that baseball is played on paper before the Super Bowl is complete, but I'll stick to my Pollyanna ways and assume that KW and OG have the best interests of the team in mind and if the problem proves as broken as some suggest it might be they will fix it.

Oh and regardless of how I feel about our offense (and I think its problems have been vastly blown WAY out of proportion by the naysayers) I simply LOVE our pitching. I'm freaking ecstatic over it in fact. I have great faith it will prove to be one of the best if not the best pitching staff the Sox have ever fielded. So I'm less worried about the offense than I might be if we were fielding last year's staff...

Pablo_Honey
02-05-2010, 11:44 AM
The other thing I take issue with is this tendency on the part of KW to construct incomplete teams. He did so in 2007, 2003, 2004, and this year's team looks to be incomplete as well. When he made the effort to put together more complete teams [i.e. without OBVIOUS holes, as he did in 2005, 2006, and 2008] the team is competitive.
Let's see:
2005 - IMO, 2005 was a result of almost the entire pitching staff having career years, and our offense wasn't all that great. (Don't believe me? Sox were in the bottom half for runs scored)
2006 - No obvious holes? Aww come on, Kenny got rid of Aaron ****ing Rowand and replaced him with Brian Anderson. In all seriousness, the Sox looked better than 2005 on paper but the pitching staff came back down to earth and the offense having a career year couldn't salvage it. Seriously, if only we had Rowand...
2008 - IIRC, Jerry Owens was a starting outfielder until an injury and Quentin stepped in, Uribe was our 2nd baseman until Alexei took over, and Danks and Floyd were penciled in as starting pitchers. Things looked pretty terrible at the start of the season until unproven guys stepped up BIG time.

In hindsight, it may look like Kenny was amazing but really, he caught a few breaks here and there. He always builds to be competitive. He puts faith in wrong players at times but there is usually a reason Kenny had faith in these players and sometimes it turns out for the best.

khan
02-05-2010, 11:45 AM
I think this team has less holes than any team we've fielded since 2006. The biggest hole is the easiest to replace. A bat that fields any position on the diamond. Much, much easier than starting pitching, CF, or SS.

I certainly hope you're right.

But, at this point of the offseason, I have the same feeling about THIS team as I did last offseason:

That the team was OBVIOUSLY incomplete. [BTW, I'm sure you like the linebrink-Pena RH setup combo, right? I fear that we'll be wishing that Dotel were still here by the ASB.]

voodoochile
02-05-2010, 11:46 AM
I certainly hope you're right.

But, at this point of the offseason, I have the same feeling about THIS team as I did last offseason:

That the team was OBVIOUSLY incomplete. [BTW, I'm sure you like the linebrink-Pena RH setup combo, right? I fear that we'll be wishing that Dotel were still here by the ASB.]

Really? Wow... I'm shocked... How can anyone say that this team isn't VASTLY improved from the 2/5/2009 version? :scratch:

khan
02-05-2010, 11:48 AM
Oh and regardless of how I feel about our offense (and I think its problems have been vastly blown WAY out of proportion by the naysayers) I simply LOVE our pitching. I'm freaking ecstatic over it in fact. I have great faith it will prove to be one of the best if not the best pitching staff the Sox have ever fielded. So I'm less worried about the offense than I might be if we were fielding last year's staff...

Great. Now, show us how a team can win without scoring some runs.

Pablo_Honey
02-05-2010, 11:51 AM
Really? Wow... I'm shocked... How can anyone say that this team isn't VASTLY improved from the 2/5/2009 version? :scratch:
Blasphemy! Teahen will suck, Pierre will suck, Rios will suck even more, Quentin will get injured, Ramirez will continue to suck, Beckham will be sophomore-jinxed, and...HOLY CRAP THE SKY IS FALLING!

Nellie_Fox
02-05-2010, 11:51 AM
Great. Now, show us how a team can win without scoring some runs.I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that they will score some runs.

I just love hyperbole.

khan
02-05-2010, 11:52 AM
How can anyone say that this team isn't VASTLY improved from the 2/5/2009 version? :scratch:
I didn't speak to impovements. I'm speaking towards the completeness/incompleteness of a team.

Irrespective of how "great" a pitching rotation looks, without some offense, the team may suffer. If Pena/linebrink/the injured JJ Putz can't do as well or better than Dotel did last season, the bullpen is a weakness.

In mythology, Achilles was a great warrior, but he had a fatal flaw. The 2009 team had all sorts of fatal flaws, due to its incomplete nature. The 2010 team looks to have fatal flaws as well.

spawn
02-05-2010, 11:53 AM
Really? Wow... I'm shocked... How can anyone say that this team isn't VASTLY improved from the 2/5/2009 version? :scratch:
I was thinking the same thing. As I've stated, I'm not completely sold on who this team has rotating at DH, but for the most part this team is head and houlders above what they threw out there last season. I mean, Peavy and Garcia in, Contreras an Colon out. Jones, Vizquel, Kotsay, RIos in. Betemit, Lillibridge, Fields, Wise, out. Pierre in, Owens out. That's as far as I ned to go to show the improvement over last season's club.

Pablo_Honey
02-05-2010, 11:55 AM
Great. Now, show us how a team can win without scoring some runs.
Ask the 2009 Mariners. They had some crap offense but they didn't do so bad now did they?

spawn
02-05-2010, 11:55 AM
In mythology, Achilles was a great warrior, but he had a fatal flaw. The 2009 team had all sorts of fatal flaws, due to its incomplete nature. The 2010 team looks to have fatal flaws as well.
Now we're comparing the team to heroes in freakin' Greek mythology? Good Lord. :rolling:

Twins_Morneau
02-05-2010, 11:57 AM
The Twins are "out-Soxing" us.

Yea complete role reversal, we got the power (you guys have the pitching), we going to have a 100+ million dollar payroll, outdoor stadium. Hopefully this means we get a World Series like you guys got in '05.

spawn
02-05-2010, 11:57 AM
I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that they will score some runs.

Nope. They will get shut out in 137 games this season.

voodoochile
02-05-2010, 11:57 AM
I didn't speak to impovements. I'm speaking towards the completeness/incompleteness of a team.

Irrespective of how "great" a pitching rotation looks, without some offense, the team may suffer. If Pena/linebrink/the injured JJ Putz can't do as well or better than Dotel did last season, the bullpen is a weakness.

In mythology, Achilles was a great warrior, but he had a fatal flaw. The 2009 team had all sorts of fatal flaws, due to its incomplete nature. The 2010 team looks to have fatal flaws as well.

Okay, well, I think you're overstating the "incompleteness" factor. Also, isn't the RH setup situation actually Pena/Putz?

Nellie_Fox
02-05-2010, 11:57 AM
Now we're comparing the team to heroes in freakin' Greek mythology? Good Lord. :rolling:Thank you.

khan
02-05-2010, 12:01 PM
Let's see:
2005 - IMO, 2005 was a result of almost the entire pitching staff having career years, and our offense wasn't all that great. (Don't believe me? Sox were in the bottom half for runs scored)
Sure. But KW did a great job shoring up the bullpen and leadoff spots [solving TWO holes] by shipping out Lee for Podsednik and Vizcaino. Hermanson and Jenks solved the closer hole. AJ solved the Catcher hole. And JD replaced Ordonez.

This team was very much complete, and the results showed as much.

2006 - No obvious holes? Aww come on, Kenny got rid of Aaron ****ing Rowand and replaced him with Brian Anderson. In all seriousness, the Sox looked better than 2005 on paper but the pitching staff came back down to earth and the offense having a career year couldn't salvage it. Seriously, if only we had Rowand...
Sure. But the team was reasonably complete, and the record reflected as much, despite the AL Central being the best in MLB. I agree that the failings of a few individuals were what kep that team from winning the division.

2008 - IIRC, Jerry Owens was a starting outfielder until an injury and Quentin stepped in, Uribe was our 2nd baseman until Alexei took over, and Danks and Floyd were penciled in as starting pitchers. Things looked pretty terrible at the start of the season until unproven guys stepped up BIG time.
But there were solutions in-house for many apparent holes in the team, which you've already mentioned. The pitching was "good enough," the defense was "good enough," and the offense was "good enough" to get us to the blackout game. The loss of Quentin was a game changer in the playoffs, but the team was complete enough to get there in the first place.

What is the in-house solution for the [probably] crappy DH this year?

In hindsight, it may look like Kenny was amazing but really, he caught a few breaks here and there. He always builds to be competitive. He puts faith in wrong players at times but there is usually a reason Kenny had faith in these players and sometimes it turns out for the best.
And I posit that KW is doing so with benchwarmers like Kotsay and Jones.

khan
02-05-2010, 12:03 PM
Okay, well, I think you're overstating the "incompleteness" factor. Also, isn't the RH setup situation actually Pena/Putz?

OK, so the RH setup solution is a guy that many here have bitched about, and another coming off surgery?

That's supposed to be a solid, proven solution?

voodoochile
02-05-2010, 12:05 PM
OK, so the RH setup solution is a guy that many here have bitched about, and another coming off surgery?

That's supposed to be a solid, proven solution?

I'm done...

spawn
02-05-2010, 12:06 PM
I'm done...
It's just not worth it anymore, is it?

khan
02-05-2010, 12:06 PM
Now we're comparing the team to heroes in freakin' Greek mythology? Good Lord. :rolling:

Sure. Because Voodoo is speaking to "improvements," while I'm speaking to the possibilities of this team having a fatal flaw or two. I'm speaking to this roster [again] being incomplete in it's construction. So what if the flaw is a "different" one than last year's team. I posit that the team is still incomplete.

What's wrong with that?

spawn
02-05-2010, 12:10 PM
Sure. Because Voodoo is speaking to "improvements," while I'm speaking to the possibilities of this team having a fatal flaw or two. I'm speaking to this roster [again] being incomplete in it's construction. So what if the flaw is a "different" one than last year's team. I posit that the team is still incomplete.

What's wrong with that?
Absolutely nothing.

I think I'll take my cue from Voodoo. The drama here is getting a little too over the top for me.

TheOldRoman
02-05-2010, 12:10 PM
1. While I believe that Beckham will improve, I think that it is reasonable to be wary of him having a sophomore slump.
2. Alexei is in the prime of his career. [He'll be 29 in Sept.] He is what he is. He is unlikely to make much improvement, unless he and Andruw start injecting each other a la Clemens and Canseco.
3. Teahen is not an offensive plus at his position. Other 3rd basemen produce much more than he will. Added to this is that he's not a plus defender.
4. Rios and Quentin have to PROVE it. One has been a china doll, the other has been weighed down by his obese contract. Until they show otherwise, they remain question marks.
5. The most irritating thing to me is KW not assembling a complete team. Sure, we'll have a leadoff man all year. But many [this poster included] still see a YAWNING hole in the lineup. He STILL has assembled an incomplete team, with respect to a DH situation that very well might be ****ty.


Who has a "track record?"
Quentin has a "track record" of getting injured.
Rios has a "track record" of statistical decline in recent seasons.
Teahen has a "track record" of being a lesser offensive player at his position, when compared to his peers at 3rd base.
Oh, and BTW, Konerko has a "track record" of sucking for months at a time. [He's also going to be 34 years old on Opening Day.]


I'm not being negative, but presenting a balanced view. While our competitors in Minnesota have ADDED to their lineup, our SOX have added a few bench players and improved the DH's defense. That, and $2.00 will get you a ride on the CTA, unless you're a senior citizen.Jim Thome is not an addition to the line-up. He is a glorified bench player. Gardenhire basically said Thome's declining, oft-injured ass will be a part time player. He won't bench Young. Kubel is the full time DH, so other than his days off and 20 or so games he starts in the outfield, Thome won't be starting. I don't dislike Thome at all, but lets not pretend like the Twins acquired a superstar in his prime. The Sox may have made the wrong decision to do DH by committee (if that is final), but they didn't make the wrong decision about not bringing Thome back.

Jim Thome has a "track record" of getting injured and his numbers are in decline. Hudson has a "track record" of getting injured and his numbers are in a decline over the last three years. Joe Mauer has a "track record" of getting injured, also.

We know pretty much what we will get from Konerko. Teahen is a player I believe will improve immensely, but that is my opinion. Rios has a "track record" of being an all-star calibur player (two-time). Have you even looked at his contract? People spew this garabge as if he had Barry Zito's contract. He is getting paid 10 or 12 million a year for the next 4 years. ZOMG! Obese! He had a horrible year, but if he plays to his career norm and gives stellar defense in center (which he does), his contract is not bad. Beckham very well may have a rough season, but I am not worried about him. However, it is nonsense to say Ramirez is all he ever wil be. Age isn't everything (and please throw out that he is "allegedly 29" here). Players adjust to the leagues they play in. His average and power numbers were down last year (in a transition year with him becoming SS), but he did improve his eye significantly (2.5x as many walks) and improved his OBP even with his average dipping. I think he will improve this year.

kittle42
02-05-2010, 12:11 PM
Nope. They will get shut out in 137 games this season.

So you're saying they'll come close to last year's total? :tongue:

khan
02-05-2010, 12:13 PM
Absolutely nothing.

I think I'll take my cue from Voodoo. The drama here is getting a little too over the top for me.

I agree:

Let's not discuss the White Sox on a White Sox board.

TheOldRoman
02-05-2010, 12:17 PM
Nope. They will get shut out in 137 games this season.Yes, but in the 25 games they do score runs, they will score 35 a game, making the final numbers look respectable. Such is the Walker way.:tongue:

thedudeabides
02-05-2010, 12:18 PM
I certainly hope you're right.

But, at this point of the offseason, I have the same feeling about THIS team as I did last offseason:

That the team was OBVIOUSLY incomplete. [BTW, I'm sure you like the linebrink-Pena RH setup combo, right? I fear that we'll be wishing that Dotel were still here by the ASB.]

Lat years team had holes at 3b, CF, 2B, 4th starter, 5th starter, bench, depth, and the same exact bullpen questions. I have no idea how you can possibly feel the same.

Predicting bullpens is next to impossible. You could make this argument against every team in baseball.

Great. Now, show us how a team can win without scoring some runs.

2008 Devil Rays 9th in runs(in AL), AL Champs
2008 Angels 10th in runs(in AL), , AL West Champs
2007 Cleveland 6th(in AL), , lost in ALCS
2006 Minnesota 8th in runs(in AL), , AL Central Champs
2006 Oakland 9th in runs(in AL), , AL West Champs, lost in ALCS
2005 White Sox 9th in runs(in AL), , WS Champs
2005 Angels 7th in runs(in AL), , AL West Champs, lost in ALCS
2004 Minnesota 10th in runs(in AL), , AL Central Champs
2004 Angels 7th in runs(in AL), , Al West Champs

I can continue if you would like.........

asindc
02-05-2010, 12:20 PM
1. While I believe that Beckham will improve, I think that it is reasonable to be wary of him having a sophomore slump.
2. Alexei is in the prime of his career. [He'll be 29 in Sept.] He is what he is. He is unlikely to make much improvement, unless he and Andruw start injecting each other a la Clemens and Canseco.
3. Teahen is not an offensive plus at his position. Other 3rd basemen produce much more than he will. Added to this is that he's not a plus defender.
4. Rios and Quentin have to PROVE it. One has been a china doll, the other has been weighed down by his obese contract. Until they show otherwise, they remain question marks.
5. The most irritating thing to me is KW not assembling a complete team. Sure, we'll have a leadoff man all year. But many [this poster included] still see a YAWNING hole in the lineup. He STILL has assembled an incomplete team, with respect to a DH situation that very well might be ****ty.


Who has a "track record?"
Quentin has a "track record" of getting injured.
Rios has a "track record" of statistical decline in recent seasons.
Teahen has a "track record" of being a lesser offensive player at his position, when compared to his peers at 3rd base.
Oh, and BTW, Konerko has a "track record" of sucking for months at a time. [He's also going to be 34 years old on Opening Day.]


I'm not being negative, but presenting a balanced view. While our competitors in Minnesota have ADDED to their lineup, our SOX have added a few bench players and improved the DH's defense. That, and $2.00 will get you a ride on the CTA, unless you're a senior citizen.

1. While I believe that Duensing will improve, I think that it is reasonable to be wary of him having a sophomore slump.
2. Hudson is in the prime of his career. [He'll be 31 this season.] He is what he is. He is unlikely to make much improvement, unless he and Thome start injecting each other a la Clemens and Canseco.
3. Harris is not an offensive plus at his position. Other 3rd basemen produce much more than he will. Added to this is that he's not a plus defender.
4. Liriano and Young have to PROVE it. One has been a head case, the other has been weighed down by injuries and high expectations. Until they show otherwise, they remain question marks.
5. The most apparent thing to me is Bill Smith not assembling a complete team. Sure, they'll have yet another fat, slow LH DH for the entire year (maybe). But many [this poster included] still see a YAWNING hole in the lineup. He STILL has assembled an incomplete team, with respect to the starting rotation and bullpen situation that very well might be ****ty.


Who has a "track record?"
Kubel has a "track record" of getting injured.
Baker has a "track record" of statistical decline in recent seasons.
Harris has a "track record" of being a lesser offensive player at his position, when compared to his peers at 3rd base.
Oh, and BTW, Hudson has a "track record" of sucking for months at a time. [He's also going to be 31 years old on Opening Day.]


I'm not being positive, yet I am trying to maintain the pretense of a balanced view. While the competitors in Chicago have ADDED to their lineup since the middle of last season, the Twinkees have added a few fair-to-middling players (one of whom will take bats away from someone in the already-existing LH Kubel/RH Cuddyer/LH Morneau/LH Mauer DH rotation) and improved the rotation's and bullpen's OBP. That, and $2.00 will get you a ride on the Metro Transit, unless you're a senior citizen.

khan
02-05-2010, 12:22 PM
Jim Thome is not an addition to the line-up. He is a glorified bench player. Gardenhire basically said Thome's declining, oft-injured ass will be a part time player.

OK. Let's say for a moment that he is a glorified bench player. He's a lefty bat off the bench, and a backup solution for DH vs. tough righties. Compared to OUR lefty bat off the bench, he's STILL better than Kotsay.

We know pretty much what we will get from Konerko. Teahen is a player I believe will improve immensely, but that is my opinion.
I posit that it is likely that Minnesota will be better than the SOX at these two positions, PLUS @ DH as well. Do you disagree?

Rios has a "track record" of being an all-star calibur player (two-time). Have you even looked at his contract? People spew this garabge as if he had Barry Zito's contract. He is getting paid 10 or 12 million a year for the next 4 years. ZOMG! Obese! He had a horrible year, but if he plays to his career norm and gives stellar defense in center (which he does), his contract is not bad.
So you're suggesting that Rios' offensive production was worth $5.9M in 2009, and $9.7M in 2010?

I guess I have a different standard for a guy who was below the Mendoza Line with the Sox. [Even BA hit above .200 with stellar defense, but he did so for millions less.] He has yet to earn his new contract. Therefore, it is an obese contract until he does so, IMO.

Beckham very well may have a rough season, but I am not worried about him. However, it is nonsense to say Ramirez is all he ever wil be. Age isn't everything (and please throw out that he is "allegedly 29" here). Players adjust to the leagues they play in. His average and power numbers were down last year (in a transition year with him becoming SS), but he did improve his eye significantly (2.5x as many walks) and improved his OBP even with his average dipping. I think he will improve this year.
Agreed about Beckham. I also think that Ramirez may improve, but that the degree of his improvement won't be a stunning leap from 2009 to 2010. Very rarely do players make HUGE leaps in performance at 29 years old or older, unless you're Brady Anderson.

TheOldRoman
02-05-2010, 12:27 PM
1. While I believe that Duensing will improve, I think that it is reasonable to be wary of him having a sophomore slump.
2. Hudson is in the prime of his career. [He'll be 31 this season.] He is what he is. He is unlikely to make much improvement, unless he and Thome start injecting each other a la Clemens and Canseco.
3. Harris is not an offensive plus at his position. Other 3rd basemen produce much more than he will. Added to this is that he's not a plus defender.
4. Liriano and Young have to PROVE it. One has been a head case, the other has been weighed down by injuries and high expectations. Until they show otherwise, they remain question marks.
5. The most apparent thing to me is Bill Smith not assembling a complete team. Sure, they'll have yet another fat, slow LH DH for the entire year (maybe). But many [this poster included] still see a YAWNING hole in the lineup. He STILL has assembled an incomplete team, with respect to the starting rotation and bullpen situation that very well might be ****ty.


Who has a "track record?"
Kubel has a "track record" of getting injured.
Baker has a "track record" of statistical decline in recent seasons.
Harris has a "track record" of being a lesser offensive player at his position, when compared to his peers at 3rd base.
Oh, and BTW, Hudson has a "track record" of sucking for months at a time. [He's also going to be 31 years old on Opening Day.]


I'm not being positive, yet I am trying to maintain the pretense of a balanced view. While the competitors in Chicago have ADDED to their lineup since the middle of last season, the Twinkees have added a few fair-to-middling players (one of whom will take bats away from someone in the already-existing LH Kubel/RH Cuddyer/LH Morneau/LH Mauer DH rotation) and improved the rotation's and bullpen's OPS. That, and $2.00 will get you a ride on the Metro Transit, unless you're a senior citizen.:worship:

voodoochile
02-05-2010, 12:32 PM
I agree:

Let's not discuss the White Sox on a White Sox board.

No, I just don't want to discuss this particular issue for the 10,000,000th time with someone who already has made up their mind (read: you) and is willing to continue beating the discussion into the ground. I don't like banging my head against the wall either...

Feel free to talk about the Sox all you want and if you can find people who will continue to discuss this particular topic with you, have fun.

Honestly, can you tone down the rhetoric just a little bit? This particular post was really over the top ridiculous...

PalehosePlanet
02-05-2010, 12:34 PM
Belliard was hitting the **** out of the ball, it's not like Hudson fell off a cliff. He had a poor month at the wrong time.


CG, it's not as simple as that. I was in LA for 3 weeks last season and watched a bunch of Dodger games and went to a couple. I'm telling you the stats are deceiving.

I saw simple three hoppers getting by him in the hole; I saw him not score from 2nd on singles twice where he had Vin Scully stumped for words. Overall, he looked slow and old; 32 going on 40. He looked nothing like the player we saw on the base paths and in the field a few years ago.

Every Dodger fan I talked to wanted him gone.

Now I understand what you're saying: Yes he is infinitely better than Punto offensively (who isn't?) and therefore he is an overall improvement to their team. I was initially responding to a poster that was surprised that no one had offered him a multi-year contract thus far. The reason is simple: His skills are slipping --- fast!

Why do you think they went out and got Belliard? When a 5'3" 300 lb. journeyman 2B with zero range replaces you during a pennant push you're in no position to demand 9 million a year.

khan
02-05-2010, 12:39 PM
Duensing
He may improve, or he may not. But I don't see Twins fans taking it as a given, as many are here with Beckham.

2. Hudson
Again, I don't see Twins fans counting on a huge improvement from him, as some here are for Ramirez.
3. Harris
Harris is a utility IF. Why compare him to the SOX's starter.
4. Liriano and Young
I can agree to these two being question marks, but then so too are Quentin and Rios.
5. Bill Smith not assembling a complete team. Sure, they'll have yet another fat, slow LH DH for the entire year (maybe). But many [this poster included] still see a YAWNING hole in the lineup. He STILL has assembled an incomplete team, with respect to the starting rotation and bullpen situation that very well might be ****ty.
Their bullpen is as incomplete as the SOX. They have far fewer [apparent] holes in their lineup. They are a more complete team than the SOX at this point.

Kubel has a "track record" of getting injured.
Far less so than Quentin. By the way, he's better than the SOX's DH. And he's damn good, too.
Baker has a "track record" of statistical decline in recent seasons.
I can agree to this.
Harris has a "track record" of being a lesser offensive player at his position, when compared to his peers at 3rd base.
He's a utility IF.
Oh, and BTW, Hudson has a "track record" of sucking for months at a time. [He's also going to be 31 years old on Opening Day.]
Hudson is also likely to be their 6th or 7th best offensive player. Konerko is supposed to carry this offense. I don't know about you, but I'd feel more comfortable with their offense than relying on a 34 year old PK.

While the competitors in Chicago have ADDED to their lineup since the middle of last season,
Who?
The <.200 batting average of Rios?
The [likely] ex-roider Jones?
The middling Mark Teahen?
The former DFA'ed Kotsay?

the Twinkees have added a few fair-to-middling players (one of whom will take bats away from someone in the already-existing LH Kubel/RH Cuddyer/LH Morneau/LH Mauer DH rotation) and improved the rotation's and bullpen's OBP.
Yep:

They've added Thome [who again is better as a LH bat off the bench than Kotsay], and Hudson. By the way, their offense was already lightyears ahead of the SOX's, even before adding these pieces.

russ99
02-05-2010, 12:54 PM
Now really. If the Sox offense is as messed up as you claim, then what difference would a Thome or Damon make? Guys who hit .300 with 40+ hrs don't grow on trees... Would you give up Peavy, Buehrle and Danks to sign a guy like Holliday?

It sucks that opening day is two months away to prove many of these assumptions wrong.

asindc
02-05-2010, 01:31 PM
Khan,

Who is going to be the Twinkees' starting 3rd baseman this year?

The Dude
02-05-2010, 01:33 PM
I just don't see how Orlando Hudson is a difference maker in this division.

He is a difference maker in that the Twins plugged yet another hole in their lineup. No longer do they need to rely on Punto and his 200 batting average. This has got to be one of the more complete Twins lineups in quite some time. Here's how I see the Sox and Twins stacking up:

Offense: Twins
Defense: Twins
Starting Pitching: Sox
Relief Pitching: Tie
Manager: Twins

Really we only have them by the starting pitching. I think the Twins must be the odds on favorites for the division championship. But this is on paper and how many times have the Sox looked much better than the Twins on paper. Regardless, I look forward to this season and the hopes of stomping on the Twins and proving myself wrong!:gulp:

spawn
02-05-2010, 01:36 PM
I agree:

Let's not discuss the White Sox on a White Sox board.
This post definiely isn't overly dramatic.

asindc
02-05-2010, 01:47 PM
He is a difference maker in that the Twins plugged yet another hole in their lineup. No longer do they need to rely on Punto and his 200 batting average. This has got to be one of the more complete Twins lineups in quite some time. Here's how I see the Sox and Twins stacking up:

Offense: Twins
Defense: Twins
Starting Pitching: Sox
Relief Pitching: Tie
Manager: Twins

Really we only have them by the starting pitching. I think the Twins must be the odds on favorites for the division championship. But this is on paper and how many times have the Sox looked much better than the Twins on paper. Regardless, I look forward to this season and the hopes of stomping on the Twins and proving myself wrong!:gulp:

I give the Sox the edge in defense:

P: Sox
C: Twins
1b: Twins
2b: Sox
3b: Sox
SS: Sox
LF: Sox (whether it is Young or Kubel in LF for the Twinkees)
CF: Sox
RF: Tie

As far as bullpen, I'll give the slight edge to the Twinkees because of Nathan, but if the others on either side perform to career norms (including Jenks), then the slight edge shifts to the Sox, IMO.

Oh, a couple of notes about Gardenhire:

1) He played Morneau 163 games in 2008, which contributed to his Sept. swoon that year and probably his breakdown at the end of last season;

2) He started Young in LF for 108 games last year when Kubel was available. When they had Young/Gomez/Span/Cuddyer/Kubel in their OF rotation, they had LH Kubel/LH Span/LH Morneau/LH Mauer/RH Cuddyer/RH Young for a DH rotation. Yet, he started Young at DH for 8 games.

oeo
02-05-2010, 01:55 PM
He is a difference maker in that the Twins plugged yet another hole in their lineup. No longer do they need to rely on Punto and his 200 batting average. This has got to be one of the more complete Twins lineups in quite some time.

So the difference he's making up is a hole filled? I don't think that's what Corlose was implying. People are saying this move puts the Twins over the top, now they're the division favorites, etc. In other words, they're acting like they just acquired Joe Mauer, not Orlando Hudson. People are just now realizing that Twins have a good offense? It's the only reason they were halfway good last year.

Also, their lineup is no more complete than it was at the end of last year when they had Cabrera. Hudson wasn't a very good offensive player when he played in Toronto...he was okay, just not great like he was in Arizona. They also still have a platoon of Brendan Harris and Nick Punto at third base.

I get the feeling that people are still upset that the Sox didn't sign Hudson last year and this is just the frustration coming out further because this move doesn't mean much in the big picture. Hudson is only a shell of what he was in Arizona just a few years ago, both offensively and defensively. I'll take our second baseman every day of the week.

PalehosePlanet
02-05-2010, 01:57 PM
Khan,

Who is going to be the Twinkees' starting 3rd baseman this year?

It is, of course, none other than Brendan Harris. Yes, the same one he keeps referring to as a utility player.

TheOldRoman
02-05-2010, 02:05 PM
I give the Sox the edge in defense:

P: Sox
C: Twins
1b: Twins
2b: Sox
3b: Sox
SS: Sox
LF: Sox (whether it is Young or Kubel in LF for the Twinkees)
CF: Sox
RF: TieI agree mostly. However, if Hudson is healthy he will be great defensively. Also, Cuddyer is really bad, so I think CQ will have an advantage over him. Of course, this doesn't mean much.

TheVulture
02-05-2010, 02:30 PM
So the difference he's making up is a hole filled? I don't think that's what Corlose was implying. People are saying this move puts the Twins over the top, now they're the division favorites, etc. .

I know I'm playing both sides of the fence here, but plugging an average major league starter in at a weak spot can make a huge difference. Take the Sox and Aaron Rowand, for example. Average major league starters don't just grow on trees - that's why they're major leaguers, the best of the best. The consensus seemed to be that Rowand with the Sox was overall basically an average CFer, yet the Sox went how many years without a suitable replacement? Hopefully, Rios will be that player, but as of yet, he hasn't been. How many guys did they plug in out there that couldn't play at the level of an "average" CFer? How much has it hurt the Sox to throw Erstad, Mackowiack, Owens, Anderson, Wise, etc. out there the last four years?

Granted a player like Hudson or Rowand isn't going to elevate a team to another level on his own, but you multiple the difference over 25 roster spots and that's the difference between the good teams and the bad ones.

voodoochile
02-05-2010, 02:37 PM
I know I'm playing both sides of the fence here, but plugging an average major league starter in at a weak spot can make a huge difference. Take the Sox and Aaron Rowand, for example. Average major league starters don't just grow on trees - that's why they're major leaguers, the best of the best. The consensus seemed to be that Rowand with the Sox was overall basically an average CFer, yet the Sox went how many years without a suitable replacement? Hopefully, Rios will be that player, but as of yet, he hasn't been. How many guys did they plug in out there that couldn't play at the level of an "average" CFer? How much has it hurt the Sox to throw Erstad, Mackowiack, Owens, Anderson, Wise, etc. out there the last four years?

Granted a player like Hudson or Rowand isn't going to elevate a team to another level on his own, but you multiple the difference over 25 roster spots and that's the difference between the good teams and the bad ones.

Just curious, but how would you rate the position players the Sox have signed right now? I think most of them fit the definition of major league average or better...

oeo
02-05-2010, 02:38 PM
I know I'm playing both sides of the fence here, but plugging an average major league starter in at a weak spot can make a huge difference. Take the Sox and Aaron Rowand, for example. Average major league starters don't just grow on trees - that's why they're major leaguers, the best of the best. The consensus seemed to be that Rowand with the Sox was overall basically an average CFer, yet the Sox went how many years without a suitable replacement? Hopefully, Rios will be that player, but as of yet, he hasn't been. How many guys did they plug in out there that couldn't play at the level of an "average" CFer? How much has it hurt the Sox to throw Erstad, Mackowiack, Owens, Anderson, Wise, etc. out there the last four years?

Granted a player like Hudson or Rowand isn't going to elevate a team to another level on his own, but you multiple the difference over 25 roster spots and that's the difference between the good teams and the bad ones.

A difference maker to me is a top-of-the-rotation starter, a Silver Slugger, etc. No one said he didn't add anything to their team, he's just not a 'difference maker.' In other words, Hudson isn't going to make or break their season. They already had a good lineup without Hudson, where they really need help is on the opposite side of the ball.

As for the whole CF situation, that was their own fault. They were indecisive on what to do with Anderson so they just kept throwing platoon situations out there.

dickallen15
02-05-2010, 02:56 PM
A difference maker to me is a top-of-the-rotation starter, a Silver Slugger, etc. No one said he didn't add anything to their team, he's just not a 'difference maker.' In other words, Hudson isn't going to make or break their season. They already had a good lineup without Hudson, where they really need help is on the opposite side of the ball.

As for the whole CF situation, that was their own fault. They were indecisive on what to do with Anderson so they just kept throwing platoon situations out there.

He supposedly is a couple of wins better than Punto. Considering 3 of the past 4 seasons Minnesota has either won or lost the division by one game, each win is important to them. Its definitely an upgrade.

tstrike2000
02-05-2010, 02:57 PM
Health and DH aside, I like the Sox's chances offensively this year. If our position players hit anywhere near their career averages, we should be able to score some runs, especially with the station-to-station mentality hopefully behind us this year. This could be one of the best team speed teams we've had since I can remember.

thedudeabides
02-05-2010, 03:41 PM
I agree mostly. However, if Hudson is healthy he will be great defensively. Also, Cuddyer is really bad, so I think CQ will have an advantage over him. Of course, this doesn't mean much.

Hudson is no where near the defender he used to be. One of the reasons the Dodgers sat him last year was because of how far his range has fallen. It really hasn't been very good in a few years. Age and injuries have caught up to him. They actually referred to him as "Slow Dog" in LA. He has lost a ton of athletic ability, but he can still hit.

There defense as a whole is going to be pretty average this year. Cuddyer, Kubel, and Young are all below average to bad outfielders, and Span is pretty average when playing CF. They are going to have two very sure handed ,and smart, defensive players up the middle that have very little range.

Also, they aren't exactly station-to-station, but they have lost a lot of speed, and are going to be on the slower side overall. Especially if they do put Kubel in left and have Thome DH. It's going to be surprising for people to see how slow Hardy and Hudson are for middle infielders.

This really is a completely different Twins team. They made an adjustment to the new stadium fast.

It's possible the Sox will be the more athletic team, and may end up being the better defensive team this year.

People are drooling over their lineup, rightfully so, but they have as many flaws as the Sox. Maybe more.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-05-2010, 03:55 PM
Ok. How come we are allowed to use career averages and that sort of stuff when it comes to the Twins lineups... but when we talk about the Sox...

Quentin - 12rbis, 5hr, hurt the rest of the season
Rios - .230, 50rbis, 10hr
Pierre - .330 OBP, OH EM GEE!!! * His average is .348 people :doh:*
Teahen - career down year coming up
Ramirez - is best years are behind him
Jones - was on roids, hes no longer a baseball player
Putz - 5.50 ERA

... all based off of 2009? I realize if hurts, but you guys have to look deep into last year and see that Bartolo Colon, Contreras, Clayton Richard, Bettamit, Wise, Anderson, and Fields ALL started games at one point for us.

-Our pitching is vastly imporved...
-having Beckham, Rios, Pierre, and Teahen for the full season is >>>>>> Getz, Pods, Fields, Wise/BA
-Ozzie is happy
-Dye was terrible the last half of last year, we aren't losing much
-We're faster
-BETTER DEFENSE!!!
-Quentin hopefully wont be hurt

We are easily 15 games better than last year...
+ Hudson isn't that good...

spawn
02-05-2010, 03:57 PM
We are easily 15 games better than last year...

I don't think this is a 94-win team...not easily anyway.

oeo
02-05-2010, 04:10 PM
He supposedly is a couple of wins better than Punto. Considering 3 of the past 4 seasons Minnesota has either won or lost the division by one game, each win is important to them. Its definitely an upgrade.

I'd like to see the formula where certain players equal a certain amount of wins. Does that include defense? I bet Punto's range at second base is better than Hudson's.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-05-2010, 04:18 PM
I don't think this is a 94-win team...not easily anyway.Then we overachieved last year. We are 15 wins better than that TEAM. I guess that's better wording.

DirtySox
02-05-2010, 04:28 PM
I'd like to see the formula where certain players equal a certain amount of wins. Does that include defense? I bet Punto's range at second base is better than Hudson's.

Hudson was worth 2.9 last year while Punto was worth 1.3 WAR.

TheOldRoman
02-05-2010, 04:35 PM
Hudson was worth 2.9 last year while Punto was worth 1.3 WAR.Do you have any measure of their comparative worth that are actually relevant?

1989
02-05-2010, 05:07 PM
Hudson was worth 2.9 last year while Punto was worth 1.3 WAR.

Do you have a list of the projected starting lineups for both the Sox and Twins?

mzh
02-05-2010, 05:08 PM
Hudson was worth 2.9 last year while Punto was worth 1.3 WAR.
Do you have any measure of their comparative worth that are actually relevant?

I don't know how relevent WAR is, but i heard that the Dodgers were surprised by his lack of speed and range. Apparently his nickname was "Slow-Dog"

soxinem1
02-05-2010, 05:22 PM
They've got all the components. The only thing they are a little short on is SP, but if those 5 are only mediocre at best I still think they are the favorites.

Keith Law says they are favorites:

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4890362&name=law_keith&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fesp n%2fblog%2findex%3fentryID%3d4890362%26name%3dlaw_ keith%26campaign%3drss%26source%3dESPNHeadlines

Hudson isn't that good...

I actually like WAS signing Kennedy better, at least $ per $, he might produce the same numbers with a little better defense.

Ranger
02-05-2010, 05:56 PM
http://twitter.com/washingnats/status/8642565803

That lineup is looking mighty nice. If the pitching is adequate, I think this team runs away with the division.

I wouldn't get too worked up over it. The '06 Sox were supposed to run away with it, too.

Ranger
02-05-2010, 05:59 PM
It only puts them in a better position to compete with the White Sox.

And who won the division that year?

There is a very strong contingent of optimists here. Some have trouble with any kind of criticism or concern with the team or management.


And you could say there are many here that are completely the opposite. Some people are never optimistic and they assume the worst case scenario will always play out.

Daver
02-05-2010, 06:00 PM
Then we overachieved last year. We are 15 wins better than that TEAM. I guess that's better wording.

We will agree to disagree, the team as it is comprised now is worse than the 09 team.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-05-2010, 06:03 PM
We will agree to disagree, the team as it is comprised now is worse than the 09 team.Seriously?

chisox117
02-05-2010, 06:04 PM
Keith Law says they are favorites:

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4890362&name=law_keith&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fesp n%2fblog%2findex%3fentryID%3d4890362%26name%3dlaw_ keith%26campaign%3drss%26source%3dESPNHeadlines



I don't see Law picking the Twins to win the division anywhere in the article (unless its part of "Insider" content, which I don't get). He says that they have again made themselves into contenders with their offseason moves.

Ranger
02-05-2010, 06:06 PM
We will agree to disagree, the team as it is comprised now is worse than the 09 team.

You're referring to the Sox? No, it isn't. Better rotation, comparable bullpen, opening day lineup better than last year's. I doubt they're a 90-win team or anything, but there is no reason this team shouldn't be better than it was.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
02-05-2010, 06:07 PM
I wouldn't get too worked up over it. The '06 Sox were supposed to run away with it, too.

..and the reason the Sox didn't that year was because the Twins and Tigers came out of nowhere and made the AL Central the best division in baseball that year. The Sox played great, but the Twins/Tigers caught lightning in a bottle that year.

3 90-win teams in the ALC that year...no one saw that coming, especially those that routinely pencil the ALC as the "Comedy Central" every year, where 82 wins is considered "winning the division handily".

That said, I think the Twins are the favorites, but the Sox/Tigers will be in it as well. Now, I don't think it's going to be like '06, but it will come down to the last week of the season, I think.

Ranger
02-05-2010, 06:21 PM
..and the reason the Sox didn't that year was because the Twins and Tigers came out of nowhere and made the AL Central the best division in baseball that year. The Sox played great, but the Twins/Tigers caught lightning in a bottle that year.



Yes. And? The point is that, unless you're fielding an All Star team, there is too much unpredictability to be ignored. The Sox should have the best rotation in the division, but that doesn't mean it will. On paper, Thome and Hudson should provide a boost to that lineup, but really, how much of a boost?

I think it's overstating it to say those moves put the Twins over the top. It seems to be more likely that some Sox fans are freaking out because the Sox haven't signed anyone yet, and the inactivity is making them feel anxious.

If Thome plays as little as it sounds like he's going to play, I think they're going to be hard-pressed to get significant production out of him. Hudson is also declining a bit. I certainly wouldn't expect him to blow up like he did at the beginning of last season.

The Twins improved, but it doesn't worry me as much as it worries others here. I think it was going to be competitive division anyway. This isn't a game-changer.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
02-05-2010, 06:36 PM
Yes. And? The point is that, unless you're fielding an All Star team, there is too much unpredictability to be ignored. The Sox should have the best rotation in the division, but that doesn't mean it will. On paper, Thome and Hudson should provide a boost to that lineup, but really, how much of a boost? I agree with you there...the great thing about baseball is that, unless you're a Royals/Pirates/Nationals/Orioles fan, your team is capable of popping out of nowhere and making it to the playoffs. Who thought the Marlins/Giants/Mariners/Rangers would be in contention for the whole year? I think Thome/Hudson will help, but not to the extent that everyone is saying.

I think it's overstating it to say those moves put the Twins over the top. It seems to be more likely that some Sox fans are freaking out because the Sox haven't signed anyone yet, and the inactivity is making them feel anxious. Because the market for DH's is dwindling by the day, and people aren't sold on the idea of a washed-up former 10x GGer and a bench player making up the DH position. So whenever someone that can swing a bat reasonably well gets signed, expect more of the same.

If Thome plays as little as it sounds like he's going to play, I think they're going to be hard-pressed to get significant production out of him. Hudson is also declining a bit. I certainly wouldn't expect him to blow up like he did at the beginning of last season. Well, from what I've heard, the Twins park caters to lefty hitters, so if that holds true, I think the Twins will find a spot for Thome to get as many ABs as he can, at least at home. Hudson I'm not as worried about.

The Twins improved, but it doesn't worry me as much as it worries others here. I think it was going to be competitive division anyway. This isn't a game-changer. No, but it does improve the Twins' chances, and in the case of Thome, it simultaneously weakened the Sox' chances, so it was a double whammy in that respect.

Comments in purple.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-05-2010, 06:45 PM
Comments in purple.It sounds like you think Thome and Hudson are tho all stars just added to the team. They have improved, but no where near the level of improvement guys like Rios, HEALTHY Quentin, Peavy, EXPERIENCED Beckham, and Teahen can bring. Teahen's and Hudson's stats are very comparable, with Teahen having more potential.

Daver
02-05-2010, 07:05 PM
Seriously?

Yes.

Craig Grebeck
02-05-2010, 07:15 PM
It sounds like you think Thome and Hudson are tho all stars just added to the team. They have improved, but no where near the level of improvement guys like Rios, HEALTHY Quentin, Peavy, EXPERIENCED Beckham, and Teahen can bring. Teahen's and Hudson's stats are very comparable, with Teahen having more potential.
Not seeing it.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-05-2010, 07:33 PM
Not seeing it.Lets look at career averages....

Teahen: 70 RBIs | 14 HRs | .269 AVG | 10 SB | 35 2B | .331 OBP
Hudson: 69 RBIs | 12 HRs | .282 AVG | 8 SB | 34 SB | .348 OBP

Teahen is 4 years younger, and is moving to a better team. It's expected by many that he will improve in this new park and team. More slightly more RBIs, HRs, SBs, 2Bs. Teahen has a lower AVG and OBP, which is all anyone here cared about, so I guess I lose.

Hudson has better stats overall, but Teahen is 4 years younger, and is expected to only improve, while Hudson has shown that this is the consistent level he will compete. My point was that they are comparable, which they very well are... With Teahen making a move to a better organization, being younger, and playing in one position, I think he has more potential.

chisox117
02-05-2010, 07:36 PM
Lets look at career averages....

Teahen: 70 RBIs | 14 HRs | .269 AVG | 10 SB | 35 2B | .331 OBP
Hudson: 69 RBIs | 12 HRs | .282 AVG | 8 SB | 34 SB | .348 OBP

Teahen is 4 years younger, and is moving to a better team. It's expected by many that he will improve in this new park and team. More slightly more RBIs, HRs, SBs, 2Bs. Teahen has a lower AVG and OBP, which is all anyone here cared about, so I guess I lose.

Hudson has better stats overall, but Teahen is 4 years younger, and is expected to only improve, while Hudson has shown that this is the consistent level he will compete. My point was that they are comparable, which they very well are... With Teahen making a move to a better organization, being younger, and playing in one position, I think he has more potential.

Additionally, Hudson's numbers will likely suffer with a return to the AL.

Craig Grebeck
02-05-2010, 07:40 PM
Lets look at career averages....

Teahen: 70 RBIs | 14 HRs | .269 AVG | 10 SB | 35 2B | .331 OBP
Hudson: 69 RBIs | 12 HRs | .282 AVG | 8 SB | 34 SB | .348 OBP

Teahen is 4 years younger, and is moving to a better team. It's expected by many that he will improve in this new park and team. More slightly more RBIs, HRs, SBs, 2Bs. Teahen has a lower AVG and OBP, which is all anyone here cared about, so I guess I lose.

Hudson has better stats overall, but Teahen is 4 years younger, and is expected to only improve, while Hudson has shown that this is the consistent level he will compete. My point was that they are comparable, which they very well are... With Teahen making a move to a better organization, being younger, and playing in one position, I think he has more potential.
As far as I can tell, Teahen strikes out more, walks less, makes more sporadic contact, and hits for comparable power. Sweet.

Patrick134
02-05-2010, 07:49 PM
As far as I can tell, Teahen strikes out more, walks less, makes more sporadic contact, and hits for comparable power. Sweet.


This isn't fantasy baseball, where no owners would have taken Podsednik over Carlos Lee.

Craig Grebeck
02-05-2010, 07:55 PM
This isn't fantasy baseball, where no owners would have taken Podsednik over Carlos Lee.
Stretch!

Rdy2PlayBall
02-05-2010, 07:57 PM
As far as I can tell, Teahen strikes out more, walks less, makes more sporadic contact, and hits for comparable power. Sweet.I said they were comparable. And the point about him going to the AL only helps prove my case more. Teahen's potential in our park and our lineup (compared to the Royals) makes his power numbers have a chance of being MUCH higher than Hudsons... and his lack of comfort in KC can only hurt his average and relaxation at the plate. Flipping a guy around the field can cause a lot of problems with their offense.

Out of the two additions, Teahen improves the Sox more than Hudson improves the Twins. Our defense got better, theirs got worse. Their offense got a great addition, ours also got a "comparably great" addition. Their 2B production was bad in 2009, with Beckham moving over, we no longer have the lack of consistancy at 2B. These are two different types of players we are talking about, that's why I'm not going to fight over AVG and OBP.

btw, I don't think 6 more walks a season is that big of a deal

asindc
02-05-2010, 07:58 PM
This isn't fantasy baseball, where no owners would have taken Podsednik over Carlos Lee.

I thank you for saying this, for it is quite relevant.

Craig Grebeck
02-05-2010, 07:58 PM
I said they were comparable. And the point about him going to the AL only helps prove my case more. Teahen's potential in our park and our lineup (compared to the Royals) makes his power numbers have a chance of being MUCH higher than Hudsons... and his lack of comfort in KC can only hurt his average and relaxation at the plate. Flipping a guy around the field can cause a lot of problems with their offense.

Out of the two additions, Teahen improves the Sox more than Hudson improves the Twins. Our defense got better, theirs got worse. Their offense got a great addition, ours also got a "comparably great" addition. Their 2B production was bad in 2009, with Beckham moving over, we no longer have the lack of consistancy at 2B. These are two different types of players we are talking about, that's why I'm not going to fight over AVG and OBP.
Ah, the old platitudes over concrete evidence argument.

asindc
02-05-2010, 08:00 PM
Ok. How come we are allowed to use career averages and that sort of stuff when it comes to the Twins lineups... but when we talk about the Sox...

Quentin - 12rbis, 5hr, hurt the rest of the season
Rios - .230, 50rbis, 10hr
Pierre - .330 OBP, OH EM GEE!!! * His average is .348 people :doh:*
Teahen - career down year coming up
Ramirez - is best years are behind him
Jones - was on roids, hes no longer a baseball player
Putz - 5.50 ERA

... all based off of 2009? I realize if hurts, but you guys have to look deep into last year and see that Bartolo Colon, Contreras, Clayton Richard, Bettamit, Wise, Anderson, and Fields ALL started games at one point for us.

-Our pitching is vastly imporved...
-having Beckham, Rios, Pierre, and Teahen for the full season is >>>>>> Getz, Pods, Fields, Wise/BA
-Ozzie is happy
-Dye was terrible the last half of last year, we aren't losing much
-We're faster
-BETTER DEFENSE!!!
-Quentin hopefully wont be hurt

We are easily 15 games better than last year...
+ Hudson isn't that good...

... and I especially thank you for saying this. Perspective, people... please!

Craig Grebeck
02-05-2010, 08:01 PM
I thank you for saying this, for it is quite relevant.
You've got to be kidding me.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-05-2010, 08:02 PM
Ah, the old platitudes over concrete evidence argument.The guy walks 6 more times a season, I don't think that's enough for me to give up 3 more Runs, 2 more SBs, 2 more HRs, and 1 more RBI... :scratch:

OBP is such a stupid stat, especially when it doesn't even lead to more runs scored, just more people left on base.

Daver
02-05-2010, 08:04 PM
Out of the two additions, Teahen improves the Sox more than Hudson improves the Twins. Our defense got better, theirs got worse.

Teahen is not an improvement at 3rd base, and neither is Beckham at second, the outfield defense is not improved at all either.

Craig Grebeck
02-05-2010, 08:05 PM
The guy walks 6 more times a season, I don't think that's enough for me to give up 3 more Runs, 2 more SBs, 2 more HRs, and 1 more RBI... :scratch:

OBP is such a stupid stat, especially when it doesn't even lead to more runs scored, just more people left on base.
There's plenty of correlative evidence that shows higher OBP = more runs scored.

asindc
02-05-2010, 08:06 PM
Ah, the old platitudes over concrete evidence argument.

It is no less concrete than definitively stating that--

--a 39-year-old overweight slugger with a checkered fitness history will maintain the same level of production while playing less, or

--KW and Ozzie are not working as hard as they should to make the team better, or

--the Twinkees are going to be better defensively than the Sox because of Hudson at 2nd and Hardy at SS, or

--Gardenhire is too smart to play Young in LF ahead of Kubel, even though he did exactly that for the majority of games last season.

I could go on, but the point is made.

asindc
02-05-2010, 08:07 PM
You've got to be kidding me.

No, quite serious.

DirtySox
02-05-2010, 08:08 PM
OBP is such a stupid stat, especially when it doesn't even lead to more runs scored, just more people left on base.

lolwut

asindc
02-05-2010, 08:09 PM
There's plenty of correlative evidence that shows higher OBP = more runs scored.

Yes in general, but not in the specific case you two are discussing. That's why context is important when evaluating players.

Craig Grebeck
02-05-2010, 08:09 PM
No, quite serious.
No, really, please tell me the relevance of the White Sox clearing payroll by dumping Carlos Lee when comparing Hudson to Teahen.

asindc
02-05-2010, 08:09 PM
Teahen is not an improvement at 3rd base, and neither is Beckham at second, the outfield defense is not improved at all either.

I disagree.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-05-2010, 08:10 PM
Teahen is not an improvement at 3rd base, and neither is Beckham at second, the outfield defense is not improved at all either.Pierre and Rios is not better than Dye and Wise????
How can you say Beckham and Teahen isn't better than Beckham and Getz? Beckham will move to a more SS-like position, and Teahen is better than Beckham at 3B. Your post is really throwing me off because I don't understand it at all.

Craig Grebeck
02-05-2010, 08:10 PM
It is no less concrete than definitively stating that--

--a 39-year-old overweight slugger with a checkered fitness history will maintain the same level of production while playing less, or

--KW and Ozzie are not working as hard as they should to make the team better, or

--the Twinkees are going to be better defensively than the Sox because of Hudson at 2nd and Hardy at SS, or

--Gardenhire is too smart to play Young in LF ahead of Kubel, even though he did exactly that for the majority of games last season.

I could go on, but the point is made.
I don't understand the point of this post.

Craig Grebeck
02-05-2010, 08:11 PM
Pierre and Rios is not better than Dye and Wise????
How can you say Beckham and Teahen isn't better than Beckham and Getz? Beckham will move to a more SS-like position, and Teahen is better than Beckham at 3B. Your post is really throwing me off because I don't understand it at all.
On what are you basing this Teahen is better than Beckham stuff?

Rdy2PlayBall
02-05-2010, 08:12 PM
There's plenty of correlative evidence that shows higher OBP = more runs scored.My point was that Teahen has more runs scored on average than Hudson, dispite Hudson's higher OBP. There's some "concrete evidence" for yah...

Craig Grebeck -On what are you basing this Teahen is better than Beckham stuff?
Professionals telling me Teahen is better defensively at 3B than Beckham. I kind of trust them more then WSI people who clearly don't like Teahen.

Daver
02-05-2010, 08:15 PM
My point was that Teahen has more runs scored on average than Hudson, dispite Hudson's higher OBP. There's some "concrete evidence" for yah...


Professionals telling me Teahen is better defensively at 3B than Beckham. I kind of trust them more then WSI people who clearly don't like Teahen.

Professional what?

Craig Grebeck
02-05-2010, 08:16 PM
My point was that Teahen has more runs scored on average than Hudson, dispite Hudson's higher OBP. There's some "concrete evidence" for yah...

1. That's irrelevant.
2. Did you scale it to plate appearances?

Professionals telling me Teahen is better defensively at 3B than Beckham. I kind of trust them more then WSI people who clearly don't like Teahen.
Who are these professionals? I've got no problem with Teahen, I just don't think he's a good baseball player.

asindc
02-05-2010, 08:17 PM
No, really, please tell me the relevance of the White Sox clearing payroll by dumping Carlos Lee when comparing Hudson to Teahen.

Carlos Lee being traded had the ancillary effect of clearing payroll, but the primary purpose was to improve the offense of the team. That was accomplished even though Pods had up until that point a lower career OPS than Lee and all indications were that it would continue to be so. Thus, the comparison made between Teahan's acquisition and Hudson's acquisition without analyzing their comparative stats is quite similar. The point made was that a player can in fact improve a team more than another player with more impressive stats because he fits the team's scene better. Such was the case with Pods vs. Lee. The poster is saying such will be the case with Teahan on Sox vs. Hudson on Twinkees.

Craig Grebeck
02-05-2010, 08:17 PM
Carlos Lee being traded had the ancillary effect of clearing payroll, but the primary purpose was to improve the offense of the team. That was accomplished even though Pods had up until that point a lower career OPS than Lee and all indications were that it would continue to be so. Thus, the comparison made between Teahan's acquisition and Hudson's acquisition without analyzing their comparative stats is quite similar. The point made was that a player can in fact improve a team more than another player with more impressive stats because he fits the team's scene better. Such was the case with Pods vs. Lee. The poster is saying such will be the case with Teahan on Sox vs. Hudson on Twinkees.
****ing hell, I don't want to rehash this bull**** argument for the 1,000th time, but this team wins the title with Carlos Lee's production in 2005.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-05-2010, 08:18 PM
Professional what?Musicians. :cool:

Like, all the sports analysts that do this stuff for a living, also KW... who I would consider "professionals" in their field.

asindc
02-05-2010, 08:18 PM
I don't understand the point of this post.

I'm not surprised.

Craig Grebeck
02-05-2010, 08:20 PM
Musicians. :cool:

Like, all the sports analysts that do this stuff for a living, also KW... who I would consider "professionals" in their field.
So no professionals?
I'm not surprised.
I've not argued half of the points you brought up, for one, and secondly: my arguments are, you know, constructed and thought-out, unlike the ones I'm combating in this thread.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-05-2010, 08:21 PM
So no professionals?
Um? Should I say people more creditable than just negative fans? I really don't know what you want.

Btw, my comments seem more thought out than yours; because your's are just sarcastic points with nothing put into it but your opinions on the stats presented to you... and how you can make them look like Teahen sucks.

Craig Grebeck
02-05-2010, 08:21 PM
Um? Should I say people more creditable than just negative fans? I really don't know what you want.
Well, if there are so many analysts, link me.

asindc
02-05-2010, 08:24 PM
I've not argued half of the points you brought up, for one, and secondly: my arguments are, you know, constructed and thought-out, unlike the ones I'm combating in this thread.

I made those points not as a direct rebuttal to specific points you made with respect to those issues, but to note that your accusation that the poster was simply making assertions without evidence is really the equivalent of saying that he is speculating. We all are at this point. Some cite stats, some summarize their personal assessment of players based on personal scouting (watching them play), some do a combination of both.

Daver
02-05-2010, 08:25 PM
Musicians. :cool:

Like, all the sports analysts that do this stuff for a living, also KW... who I would consider "professionals" in their field.

Sports analysts are professional talent evaluators like my ass chews gum, and KW makes decisions based on many factors, Juan Pierre is a crappy outfielder in every aspect, but he can get on base and lead off.

dickallen15
02-05-2010, 08:25 PM
****ing hell, I don't want to rehash this bull**** argument for the 1,000th time, but this team wins the title with Carlos Lee's production in 2005.

Obviously moving Lee might have created some more opportunities money-wise to improve the roster, but I agree with you, whoever thinks swapping out Lee for Podsednik made all the difference in the world and the 2005 White Sox would not have been as good with Lee in LF instead of Pods is kidding themselves. Pods scored 80 runs and drove in 25.

Daver
02-05-2010, 08:27 PM
Obviously moving Lee might have created some more opportunities money-wise to improve the roster, but I agree with you, whoever thinks swapping out Lee for Podsednik made all the difference in the world and the 2005 White Sox would not have been as good with Lee in LF instead of Pods is kidding themselves. Pods scored 80 runs and drove in 25.

He also made pitchers nervous and altered their approach to the plate when he was on base, a small thing yes, but the game is made up of many small things.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-05-2010, 08:33 PM
Well, if there are so many analysts, link me.I REALLY wish I had youtube videos of all the CSN, ESPN, and WGN critiques... but I'm sorry. I don't have that power, sinse no one cares about the Sox on youtube... I'm not into reading articles around the internet. But I will say I never heard Teahen is worse than Beckham at 3rd, and I have heard he is better. I know you won't believe me since I'm not throwing you links, but yah... I know what I heard.

KW didn't straight up say "Teahen is better than Beckham at 3rd" but he didn't say something a long the lines that their defense is improved from the trade. There's no denying that.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-05-2010, 08:34 PM
Sports analysts are professional talent evaluators like my ass chews gum, and KW makes decisions based on many factors, Juan Pierre is a crappy outfielder in every aspect, but he can get on base and lead off.He's not a crappy outfielder... he just has a weak arm. There is a difference. HE HAS A CRAPPY ARM, but not crappy defense...

Patrick134
02-05-2010, 08:38 PM
You can't just look at stats and say you'd win more or less with one guy over another. The guy who hits 15 points lower may have better running speed, or the guy may be bad in certain situations.

Daver
02-05-2010, 08:42 PM
He's not a crappy outfielder... he just has a weak arm. There is a difference. HE HAS A CRAPPY ARM, but not crappy defense...

No, he's a crappy outfielder, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that. The White Sox as of right now now will have a crappy LFer, a good CFer, and a mediocre LFer with injury issues playing right.

If I drink enough kool-aid maybe I can see 90 wins too.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-05-2010, 08:55 PM
No, he's a crappy outfielder, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that. The White Sox as of right now now will have a crappy LFer, a good CFer, and a mediocre LFer with injury issues playing right.

If I drink enough kool-aid maybe I can see 90 wins too.I guess if I drank enough kool-aid I'd find that humorous too. I think I'm don't with this thread, it's like a waste of my time.

HUDSON IS A ****ING BEAST!!!! Teahen is <<<<< Josh Fields!!!! WWOOOOO!!!! :bandance:

Patrick134
02-05-2010, 09:02 PM
No, he's a crappy outfielder, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that. The White Sox as of right now now will have a crappy LFer, a good CFer, and a mediocre LFer with injury issues playing right.

If I drink enough kool-aid maybe I can see 90 wins too.


Outfield defense is hardly the barometer. Look at the recent teams that have won. I'd rather have 3 gold glovers too, but it's not happening anywhere.

1989
02-05-2010, 09:08 PM
Sports analysts are professional talent evaluators like my ass chews gum, and KW makes decisions based on many factors, Juan Pierre is a crappy outfielder in every aspect, but he can get on base and lead off.

He can?

oeo
02-05-2010, 10:51 PM
No, he's a crappy outfielder, it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see that.

Apparently it does.

A. Cavatica
02-05-2010, 10:57 PM
The Sox should focus on their own weaknesses and not worry about what the Twins are doing. Would it have been better to sign Hudson at $5M and leave Beckham at third, instead of trading for Teahen? Probably not; Hudson is not obviously better than Teahen. Would it have been better to sign Hudson than Vizquel? Probably, but then somebody's going to be unhappy about playing time. Hudson wasn't a great fit for us.

Should we have signed Thome? Yes, if there are no further acquisitions; but there are still good hitters out there who can play a position once in a while. Dye and Damon, to name two. Damon's a better fit for this team than Dye, but Dye is probably a better fit than Thome would have been, even though he bats right.

Sure, the Twins may have gotten a bargain in Hudson, but we might have gotten a bigger one in Andruw Jones. Now, I don't expect Jones to contribute much, but Jones in his prime was way better than Hudson in his. And Jones came cheaper.

Sam Spade
02-06-2010, 03:35 AM
I agree:

Let's not discuss the White Sox on a White Sox board.

Discussing the twins is discussing the white sox. You can't really separate the two. They are like black and white, good and evil, or yin and yang. Two opposing entities that are a part of one thing, the al central division.

Sam Spade
02-06-2010, 03:41 AM
Marlins/Giants/Mariners/Rangers.
So you'd be happy being "in contention" for the year. I won't be surprised if we end up having the same fate as the giants or mariners last year.

Seems like we could do better. I'm waiting until spring training is midway through before making any predictions, but the twins appear to be favorites to me. They currently have a much better offense, and it will beat us up at home, and in their new hitters park, if that's what it turns out to be.

kittle42
02-06-2010, 06:18 AM
I guess if I drank enough kool-aid I'd find that humorous too. I think I'm don't with this thread, it's like a waste of my time.

The common reaction of someone losing an argument.

voodoochile
02-06-2010, 08:15 AM
The common reaction of someone losing an argument.

And people who get tired of being told the Sox will suck over and over and over again. Comes a point it's not a discussion anymore, so you simply walk away...

Craig Grebeck
02-06-2010, 08:24 AM
And people who get tired of being told the Sox will suck over and over and over again. Comes a point it's not a discussion anymore, so you simply walk away...
Being a little extreme, no? I don't think this team will suck per se, but I also don't think we'll be very good without the addition of a premium offensive player. Is that really so frustrating?

Craig Grebeck
02-06-2010, 08:30 AM
Btw, my comments seem more thought out than yours; because your's are just sarcastic points with nothing put into it but your opinions on the stats presented to you... and how you can make them look like Teahen sucks.
I have no idea how and why I glossed over this last night (I'll blame it on stomach flu), but this is hilarious. Nowhere have I said Teahen sucks. Is he good? No. I don't think he's good, I think he's quite average to not good. He's shown flashes, but so have a lot of guys.

The extremism in arguing in this thread is unbelievable. I never said the Sox would suck. I never said Teahen would either. I just don't think either are slated to be particularly good this season.

SI1020
02-06-2010, 09:16 AM
And people who get tired of being told the Sox will suck over and over and over again. Comes a point it's not a discussion anymore, so you simply walk away... I doubt anyone wants the Sox to suck this year. It just appears to some of us this team has a lot of holes, and at best a lot of ifs. Outside of the SP, which should be in the top 5 of MLB, a lot of things have to break well for the team. That's just the way I see it. Of course I hope I'm wrong.

dickallen15
02-06-2010, 09:38 AM
He also made pitchers nervous and altered their approach to the plate when he was on base, a small thing yes, but the game is made up of many small things.

Yes, but it resulted in him scoring 80 times, good for 68th in MLB in 2005. He also only drove in 25 runs. The 9 hitter and the 2 hitter for the 2005 White Sox each drove in about 70, so the opportunities excuse can't be used. He was 0-7 with the bases loaded with 1 RBI, on a walk. He led the lead in CS. I appreciate they used Carlos Lee's money on Pods plus others, but the argument that Pods was a better player than Lee in 2005 is silly.

SI1020
02-06-2010, 10:02 AM
And you could say there are many here that are completely the opposite. Some people are never optimistic and they assume the worst case scenario will always play out. It takes some degree of loyalty, stability and dare I say it optimism to root for this team since Eisenhower was President. They just don't look very good to me at this point. The Sox have a history of confounding the prognosticators, being either good or bad when they were supposed to be the opposite. So we will have to see. Still, the first time OG pencils in Vizquel at DH you will hear me scream in cyberspace.

voodoochile
02-06-2010, 10:08 AM
It takes some degree of loyalty, stability and dare I say it optimism to root for this team since Eisenhower was President. They just don't look very good to me at this point. The Sox have a history of confounding the prognosticators, being either good or bad when they were supposed to be the opposite. So we will have to see. Still, the first time OG pencils in Vizquel at DH you will hear me scream in cyberspace.

I'll be very surprised if that happens very often if at all. I'd think OG would be much more likely to give an IF a "day off" as DH and put Omar at their position than to simply pencil in Omar as the DH.

dickallen15
02-06-2010, 10:22 AM
I'll be very surprised if that happens very often if at all. I'd think OG would be much more likely to give an IF a "day off" as DH and put Omar at their position than to simply pencil in Omar as the DH.

I agree. If Ozzie "needs" Vizquel in the line-up he should be playing defense. If he "needs" him in the line-up and still wants to rest him from the field, he's playing too much and the White Sox are in deep trouble.

Waysouthsider
02-06-2010, 10:47 AM
So to recap:

The Sox sign: Omar Vizquel and Andrew Jones.

The Twins sign: Jim Thome and Orlando Hudson.

I try not to be a dark cloud...but this just blows my mind. Ozzie had better pray his NL lineup wins the AL Central. I still have confidence that if the DH by committee fails, that KW will sign a big bat. I just hope the division hasn't been lost by then.

I agree with this SOOOOOoooooo much...Good God, man, when you look at the Twins spending money and getting great players I'm really hating what's being done on the Southside. And now the Tigers look to be getting Damon....I'd of preferred him over Jones as well....even though I detest him....! :?:

raul12
02-06-2010, 11:00 AM
Yes, but it resulted in him scoring 80 times, good for 68th in MLB in 2005. He also only drove in 25 runs. The 9 hitter and the 2 hitter for the 2005 White Sox each drove in about 70, so the opportunities excuse can't be used. He was 0-7 with the bases loaded with 1 RBI, on a walk. He led the lead in CS. I appreciate they used Carlos Lee's money on Pods plus others, but the argument that Pods was a better player than Lee in 2005 is silly.

2005 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any other year in my lifetime. I really don't give a **** if Lee was a better player than Pods, we won the World ****ing Series! This fantasy league (and I love fantasy baseball) obsession that there is a direct correlation between isolated pure stats and winning drives me crazy. Yes, they are important, but it is a team game, and each player has to fit into the team's make-up. If you can't see that, I'm not sure you've been mistaken and have been watching golf instead of baseball all your life.

asindc
02-06-2010, 11:43 AM
I agree with this SOOOOOoooooo much...Good God, man, when you look at the Twins spending money and getting great players I'm really hating what's being done on the Southside. And now the Tigers look to be getting Damon....I'd of preferred him over Jones as well....even though I detest him....! :?:

You might want to read the entire exchange before agreeing with spawn. It is as follows:

So to recap:

The Sox sign: Omar Vizquel and Andrew Jones.

The Twins sign: Jim Thome and Orlando Hudson.

I try not to be a dark cloud...but this just blows my mind. Ozzie had better pray his NL lineup wins the AL Central. I still have confidence that if the DH by committee fails, that KW will sign a big bat. I just hope the division hasn't been lost by then.

If you don't mind, I will add to that recap the following:

The Sox sign/acquire:

Peavy (replacing Contreras)
Rios (replacing Wise/BA)
Pierre (replacing Pods)
Teahan (replacing Fields)
Putz (replacing Dotel)


The Twinkees sign/acquire:

Hardy (replacing Harris)
Pavano (replacing ???)

The above does not include the Twinkees getting Neshek back for full season and Sox getting TCQ for full season.

Yeah, I know. My post was just an initial reaction to the signing. I think the Sox are definitely improved over what we started last season with. The DH by committee thing just makes me nervous.

I think I'll back away from the ledge now...:tongue:

Just thought you might want to know to what you are agreeing.

asindc
02-06-2010, 11:50 AM
I agree with this SOOOOOoooooo much...Good God, man, when you look at the Twins spending money and getting great players I'm really hating what's being done on the Southside. And now the Tigers look to be getting Damon....I'd of preferred him over Jones as well....even though I detest him....! :?:

By the way, two points:

1) The Sox have also spent money. The Sox payroll is higher than the Twinkees' for what it is worth. As was noted earlier in this thread, you might reasonably argue about how that spent money has been allocated, but there is not dispute that they have spent, starting with the Rios and Peavy acquisitions.

2) The Twinkees have acquired since mid-season last year the following players--
Pavano
Rauch
Thome
Hardy
Hudson

Among those players, only Hardy is what I would consider exceptional. None of them should cause any undue angst for Sox fans.

Craig Grebeck
02-06-2010, 12:38 PM
Yes, we have a higher payroll than the Twins. That's not exactly something to be proud of. They are nearing our level now. Yikes.

asindc
02-06-2010, 12:47 PM
Yes, we have a higher payroll than the Twins. That's not exactly something to be proud of. They are nearing our level now. Yikes.

By the way, two points:

1) The Sox have also spent money. The Sox payroll is higher than the Twinkees' for what it is worth. As was noted earlier in this thread, you might reasonably argue about how that spent money has been allocated, but there is not dispute that they have spent, starting with the Rios and Peavy acquisitions.

2) The Twinkees have acquired since mid-season last year the following players--
Pavano
Rauch
Thome
Hardy
Hudson

Among those players, only Hardy is what I would consider exceptional. None of them should cause any undue angst for Sox fans.

Noted only in response to the lament that the Twinkees are spending. I guess I could have simply responded, "so what?"

Craig Grebeck
02-06-2010, 12:49 PM
Noted only in response to the lament that the Twinkees are spending. I guess I could have simply responded, "so what?"
Well, to me it's worth something. They are locking up Mauer and spending money. That's frightening.

DirtySox
02-06-2010, 12:54 PM
Well, to me it's worth something. They are locking up Mauer and spending money. That's frightening.

Couple that with a decent farm system and minor league development.

Yikes indeed.

kittle42
02-06-2010, 12:57 PM
Well, to me it's worth something. They are locking up Mauer and spending money. That's frightening.

By my calculations, the Twins now have amassed 45 cents.

Frater Perdurabo
02-06-2010, 01:11 PM
By my calculations, the Twins now have amassed 45 cents.

Some schtick never gets old. :redneck

Rdy2PlayBall
02-06-2010, 01:31 PM
Wow. People would think we have 16+ pages talking about Hudson...
Let's start a thread about how the Twins will kick our asses instead of using this one.

Craig Grebeck
02-06-2010, 01:57 PM
Wow. People would think we have 16+ pages talking about Hudson...
Let's start a thread about how the Twins will kick our asses instead of using this one.
I will send you $100 if you find a post I've made in this thread that says, explicitly, the Twins will kick our asses.

voodoochile
02-06-2010, 02:01 PM
I will send you $100 if you find a post I've made in this thread that says, explicitly, the Twins will kick our asses.

Not every comment is directed at you, Craig...

I know...

I know...

They should be...:D:

DirtySox
02-06-2010, 02:04 PM
I support Craig's tyrannical reign over forum topics. It makes for good reading.

Craig Grebeck
02-06-2010, 02:29 PM
Not every comment is directed at you, Craig...

I know...

I know...

They should be...:D:
I know, I know. But when you're the posterboy for negativity, ego prevails!

Rdy2PlayBall
02-06-2010, 02:29 PM
I will send you $100 if you find a post I've made in this thread that says, explicitly, the Twins will kick our asses.How about that one?

I wasn't talking about you. And I don't remember putting quotes around the "kicking our asses" part, just saying what the overall mood is around here.

Craig Grebeck
02-06-2010, 02:31 PM
How about that one?

I wasn't talking about you. And I don't remember putting quotes around the "kicking our asses" part, just saying what the overall mood is around here.
Again, that's not the mood at all. That's how you perceive concern. Concern is not panic; ambivalence is not negativity.

voodoochile
02-06-2010, 02:39 PM
Again, that's not the mood at all. That's how you perceive concern. Concern is not panic; ambivalence is not negativity.

How about the raw ripping anger dripping out of some of the posts?

Are you honestly going to sit there and say there's no negativity, just concern expressed in this thread?

Even for someone who sides with the "concerned" folks, I think that's a bit much.

Oh and this isn't the only thread on this topic. This is by my count the 4th incarnation of "The Sox need Thome or they are doomed/oh crap the Twinkees signed Thome the Sox are doomed" thread we've had in roughly the last 6 weeks. Are you going to say there isn't a single instance of negativity in ANY of those 1500+ posts?

:scratch:

Craig Grebeck
02-06-2010, 02:41 PM
How about the raw ripping anger dripping out of some of the posts?

Are you honestly going to sit there and say there's no negativity, just concern expressed in this thread?

Even for someone who sides with the "concerned" folks, I think that's a bit much.

Oh and this isn't the only thread on this topic. This is by my count the 4th incarnation of "The Sox need Thome or they are doomed/oh crap the Twinkees signed Thome the Sox are doomed" thread we've had in roughly the last 6 weeks. Are you going to say there isn't a single instance of negativity in ANY of those 1500+ posts?

:scratch:
I think your use of negativity is pretty broad. I think there's concern that using three **** ballplayers to cover 600+ PA is an idiotic idea, and I think that's entirely justifiable, relevant, and smart. Is it negative? Perhaps. I'm more ambivalent about the club's chances, as I don't think we're very good at all. 81-85 wins may get us in, doesn't mean we're good. I don't see how that's negative.

voodoochile
02-06-2010, 02:47 PM
I think your use of negativity is pretty broad. I think there's concern that using three **** ballplayers to cover 600+ PA is an idiotic idea, and I think that's entirely justifiable, relevant, and smart. Is it negative? Perhaps. I'm more ambivalent about the club's chances, as I don't think we're very good at all. 81-85 wins may get us in, doesn't mean we're good. I don't see how that's negative.

It's not just about that. People are hammering the defense and the relief pitching and ignoring the starting pitching when making an analysis. People are claiming the team is actually worse than last year's squad at the same time. I also agree that Sox players are being evaluated by their worst season while Twinkee players are being assessed based on their best possiblitiies. The truth is likely in the middle...

It's like the lack of full time DH has triggered some hind brain response and again, it's not just you...

oeo
02-06-2010, 02:52 PM
I know, I know. But when you're the posterboy for negativity, ego prevails!

I think that would be HomeFish.

Craig Grebeck
02-06-2010, 03:14 PM
It's not just about that. People are hammering the defense and the relief pitching and ignoring the starting pitching when making an analysis. People are claiming the team is actually worse than last year's squad at the same time. I also agree that Sox players are being evaluated by their worst season while Twinkee players are being assessed based on their best possiblitiies. The truth is likely in the middle...

It's like the lack of full time DH has triggered some hind brain response and again, it's not just you...
Do people have no right to slam the defense, or question the relief pitching? I guess I don't know where Sox players are being evaluated by their worst seasons either. Perhaps Twins position players are more likely to improve/sustain performance, as they are younger and more talented.

Rdy2PlayBall
02-06-2010, 03:29 PM
Do people have no right to slam the defense, or question the relief pitching? I guess I don't know where Sox players are being evaluated by their worst seasons either. Perhaps Twins position players are more likely to improve/sustain performance, as they are younger and more talented.OH EM GE! We are 1.3 years older! :whiner:
http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/rosters/_/sort/null/order/false
Beckham, Alexei, Teahen, Pierre, Rios, Quentin, Danks, and Floyd... a major part of the core of this team, are far from the need to be concerned about age. They are in their prime and or young stages in their carrers.... The only point where age matters on a team is when we have something like Dye, Thome, and Konerko as the powerhouse of our team. Also, being older isn't always a bad thing. We have someone old in Vizquel and Konerko... but they can be great leaders/tutors, who can still perform in their specific areas. We have an old bench, that's about it.