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View Full Version : Hmmmm....? That old nagging offensive question comes around again....


Waysouthsider
01-28-2010, 08:23 AM
Well, after reading all of the Thome posts....I'm just reminded again about our offense. One argument that is coming up frequently is that the strength of our pitching will make up for the lack of bats.

My concern is that over and over again last year teams threw unknown, crappy, young, mediocre, first-timers, etc. against what was pretty darned good pitching on our part (allowing for the problems at 4/5 slots) and we continuously lost games by 1 run. AND our hitters looked like little league guys.

We mostly have the same bats, we still have Walker, and I'm not always convinced of Ozzie's small ball abilities. Didn't it seem like we were running all the time last year, often when it costs us games? Like a kid with a new toy, Ozzie seemed to be using it too much and our aggressiveness costs us games. Some of that was due to Pods, but really?

I'm still not sold....plus it pisses me off that of all the teams Thome goes to it has to be the ****ing twinkies. AND adding insult to injury Gardy makes that ignorant/racial comment about Thome being able to understand what his manager is saying.

This week just pissed me off....:angry:

And made me more anxious! :o:

ike from nj
01-28-2010, 08:32 AM
Look, who know show the season will play out. And I know people are sick of bringing up 2005, but there were not that high of expectations for that team. I am actually very excited about this offense. They keys in my opinion are TCQ getting back to form and staying healhty, Beckham continuing to progress, Rios playing close to his potential and Alexei. If those 4 guys have good seasons, I am confident the Sox offense will be good enough when combined with their pitching. We pretty much know what Pierre, Pauly, and AJ will bring. If things come together, which usually happens when teams have good seasons, the Sox offense will not be an issue.

russ99
01-28-2010, 08:41 AM
Look, who know show the season will play out. And I know people are sick of bringing up 2005, but there were not that high of expectations for that team. I am actually very excited about this offense. They keys in my opinion are TCQ getting back to form and staying healhty, Beckham continuing to progress, Rios playing close to his potential and Alexei. If those 4 guys have good seasons, I am confident the Sox offense will be good enough when combined with their pitching. We pretty much know what Pierre, Pauly, and AJ will bring. If things come together, which usually happens when teams have good seasons, the Sox offense will not be an issue.

+1

I'd also like to see Sox fans give this team a chance. I know it's hard because we're used to seeing 3 or more 40 HR guys in the lineup, but if things come together (which I know isn't a sure thing) than this lineup can score lots of runs in many different ways and play exciting baseball.

Besides, while some bashers are gone, it looks to me that 6 to 8 guys in the lineup are capable of 20 homers each, so the long ball isn't completely going away.

pythons007
01-28-2010, 09:03 AM
I love the change in offense. I like to be able to score runs other than always relying on a homer. I want to be able to hit a sac fly to score a run, I want to be able to score from second on a hit to left, I want to see people able to tag up and move to the next base, I want to see people who can steal bases!!

For as long as I can remember the Sox have always lived and died on the home run since Comiskey II has been open. Sure the home run is sexy and I like to see them, but to have your offense based around it is silly! Now I'm not saying I want my offense to resemble the Twins, because that doesn't work all the time either, but balance does!

Carolina Kenny
01-28-2010, 09:33 AM
Look, the potential for WS Corpse Ball lasting all summer has me throwing up in my Cheerios.

Will they play Corpse Ball or Ozzie Ball, or No Catch The Ball? Who knows.
I'm on the fence until this group proves themselves on the field.

In the meantime anything could happen, and anything probably will.

voodoochile
01-28-2010, 09:48 AM
Oh yippie another thread for people to rant about the lack of DH in... woohoo?

spawn
01-28-2010, 10:10 AM
Oh yippie another thread for people to rant about the lack of DH in... woohoo?
Well, without Brian Anderson around and a real CF in place, people don't have anything else to bitch about I guess. :shrug:

voodoochile
01-28-2010, 10:12 AM
Well, without Brian Anderson around and a real CF in place, people don't have anything else to bitch about I guess. :shrug:

:stirpot:

spawn
01-28-2010, 10:19 AM
:stirpot:
Who, me? Nooooooo.....


:redneck

SI1020
01-28-2010, 10:24 AM
Well, without Brian Anderson around and a real CF in place, people don't have anything else to bitch about I guess. :shrug: A real CF in place? I hope so, but based on what I saw last year pardon me if I remain the skeptic. I shouldn't have to add this, but please don't assume I'm a FOBA. I'm not.

Jim Shorts
01-28-2010, 10:28 AM
A real CF in place? I hope so, but based on what I saw last year pardon me if I remain the skeptic. I shouldn't have to add this, but please don't assume I'm a FOBA. I'm not.

Ok, I'll bite. What about Rios' defense last year has you being skeptical?

asindc
01-28-2010, 10:28 AM
Well, without Brian Anderson around and a real CF in place, people don't have anything else to bitch about I guess. :shrug:

So, the DH position has become the new BA? >>>shudder<<<

voodoochile
01-28-2010, 10:29 AM
A real CF in place? I hope so, but based on what I saw last year pardon me if I remain the skeptic. I shouldn't have to add this, but please don't assume I'm a FOBA. I'm not.

:rolling:

Sorry, I'm just picturing you backing up and trying to type at the same time...

No worries, how about potentially a real CF in place.

spawn
01-28-2010, 10:35 AM
So, the DH position has become the new BA? >>>shudder<<<
I know. Scary, huh?

Craig Grebeck
01-28-2010, 10:50 AM
Yes, I know, it's crazy to think the White Sox would be stupid to head into the season without a DH.

Save me the "can't talk about the team before ST/Opening Day/All-Star Break/Trading Deadline/Waiver Deadline/Roster Expansion/Off-Season/SoxFest" bull****.

voodoochile
01-28-2010, 10:52 AM
Yes, I know, it's crazy to think the White Sox would be stupid to head into the season without a DH.

Save me the "can't talk about the team before ST/Opening Day/All-Star Break/Trading Deadline/Waiver Deadline/Roster Expansion/Off-Season/SoxFest" bull****.

We got it. You've posted it at least 3 times now. You can stop...:rolleyes:

Rdy2PlayBall
01-28-2010, 10:52 AM
Wise, Bettamit, Fields, Anderson, Pods, Getz = Pierre, Beckham, Rios, Teahen ??? :scratch:

A healthy Quentin can easily make up the lost production of Thome. And the Pierre, Beckham, Teahen squad can EASILY make up the poor production from the other guys, and cover the production lost from Dye.

You act like we started the season with Rios, Pods, and Beckham... We sucked last year because we didn't get the "same" team until the end of the season... and Quentin was injured.

How is this roster NOT better than 08'?

Everyone bitched about how slow we are, and now that we are fast, everyone is bitching were not fat and HR hungry. I will admit, were not perfect... but a lot of you are underestimating how much better this team is. Just compare the 2009 starting roster to the 2010 starting roster. It's 20 games better on paper.

Craig Grebeck
01-28-2010, 10:53 AM
We got it. You've posted it at least 3 times now. You can stop...:rolleyes:
So I have a cap on how many times I can talk about the DH situation, but you can deride such complaints endlessly and endlessly? The elitism regarding any complaining around here is awful.

voodoochile
01-28-2010, 10:57 AM
So I have a cap on how many times I can talk about the DH situation, but you can deride such complaints endlessly and endlessly? The elitism regarding any complaining around here is awful.

No you can stop whining about people saying that we need to see the team play before we can make a decision.

I don't care if you folks want to rehash this argument for the 10th time in the last few weeks. It really doesn't matter. It's the over the top hyperbole and even now accusing me of being elitist. You're the one who's complaining about other people calling for rational thought and a chance to see how things will actually go before saying the team is doomed. Now who's being elitist?

soxinem1
01-28-2010, 10:58 AM
http://www.chicagoist.com/attachments/chicago_benjy/2005_12_sports_frank_thomas.jpg

'I want to play. Whaddaya say we let by-gones be by-gones, KW? I can solve this problem!!'

Craig Grebeck
01-28-2010, 11:02 AM
No you can stop whining about people saying that we need to see the team play before we can make a decision.

I don't care if you folks want to rehash this argument for the 10th time in the last few weeks. It really doesn't matter. It's the over the top hyperbole and even now accusing me of being elitist. You're the one who's complaining about other people calling for rational thought and a chance to see how things will actually go before saying the team is doomed. Now who's being elitist?
I'm sorry if I think there's significant -- if not overwhelming -- evidence pointing to the fact that Jones and Kotsay suck. I'm not saying the team is doomed, they could still slide into the playoffs, it's the idea that we can pretend we're in the NL and it will somehow benefit us.

And I'm sorry, you can go back and read any of the threads about the DH situation, or any thread where someone is called a dark cloud, or an Ozzie hater, or any number of terms. The threads pretty much speak for themselves -- those who complain about a ballclub with a glaring hole and a stupid manager somehow lead a depraved existence. Again, I apologize if I don't need to watch Andruw Jones' fat ass (and save me the Heyman blurb) before I decide he can't play baseball at a high level anymore, or wait for Mark Kotsay's back to break before I call him fragile, or see Omar Vizquel at DH before I take Ozzie at his word (something he's repeated over, and over, and over...).

This ballclub has a poor offense and a great pitching staff. Don't deride those who want to improve the club's chances. 2005 was not a formula, it was a year where our pitching staff was unprecedentedly amazing, and trying to assemble an average team that could over-perform ala 2005 is, well, stupid.

SI1020
01-28-2010, 11:03 AM
Ok, I'll bite. What about Rios' defense last year has you being skeptical? I found every phase of Rios' game to be putrid last year.

:rolling:

Sorry, I'm just picturing you backing up and trying to type at the same time...

No worries, how about potentially a real CF in place. I alway like to laugh, even at my own expense. I hope I'm not laughing to keep from crying at Rios next year.

asindc
01-28-2010, 11:08 AM
I found every phase of Rios' game to be putrid last year.

I alway like to laugh, even at my own expense. I hope I'm not laughing to keep from crying at Rios next year.

So did, I imagine, every other Sox fan, including those who think he will play much better in 2010.

voodoochile
01-28-2010, 11:12 AM
I'm sorry if I think there's significant -- if not overwhelming -- evidence pointing to the fact that Jones and Kotsay suck. I'm not saying the team is doomed, they could still slide into the playoffs, it's the idea that we can pretend we're in the NL and it will somehow benefit us.

And I'm sorry, you can go back and read any of the threads about the DH situation, or any thread where someone is called a dark cloud, or an Ozzie hater, or any number of terms. The threads pretty much speak for themselves -- those who complain about a ballclub with a glaring hole and a stupid manager somehow lead a depraved existence. Again, I apologize if I don't need to watch Andruw Jones' fat ass (and save me the Heyman blurb) before I decide he can't play baseball at a high level anymore, or wait for Mark Kotsay's back to break before I call him fragile, or see Omar Vizquel at DH before I take Ozzie at his word (something he's repeated over, and over, and over...).

This ballclub has a poor offense and a great pitching staff. Don't deride those who want to improve the club's chances. 2005 was not a formula, it was a year where our pitching staff was unprecedentedly amazing, and trying to assemble an average team that could over-perform ala 2005 is, well, stupid.

I don't mind if people have different opinions, I really would prefer it stay civil though. I haven't attacked you at all - trying to have rational discussions in the middle of this **** storm though is tough. I'd prefer people at least tried to respect each other's opinions and didn't let this devolve into a flame war or accusations of elitism, etc.

SI1020
01-28-2010, 11:12 AM
So did, I imagine, every other Sox fan, including those who think he will play much better in 2010. I'm not saying he won't. Of course I hope he does. I don't root for the Sox so I can take joy in their losses. This guy just sets off the alarm bells for me. As the sports cliche for the ages goes, if Rios gets his game back that would be huge.

asindc
01-28-2010, 11:14 AM
I'm not saying he won't. Of course I hope he does. I don't root for the Sox so I can take joy in their losses. This guy just sets off the alarm bells for me. As the sports cliche for the ages goes, if Rios gets his game back that would be huge.

Believe me, I understand your concern and share it to some extent. I worry if he has the stones to max out on his capabilities. I'm not expecting his best year yet, but I think he will be close to career norms.

Craig Grebeck
01-28-2010, 11:17 AM
I think there's more evidence to justify people being hopeful about Rios. I don't think he was ever as good as hyped -- take the proposed Lincecum swap as a starting point -- but I do think he was and is a solid player. Guys with his skillset don't just lose it.

SephClone89
01-28-2010, 11:27 AM
I am sick of every. single. topic. on WSI discussing the same damn thing.:angry:

voodoochile
01-28-2010, 11:32 AM
I am sick of every. single. topic. on WSI discussing the same damn thing.:angry:

Hey, Spawn tried to hijack it into a BA argument, but so far, no luck. Try the Parking Lot, until pitchers and catchers report, conversation is going to be minimal on the Sox side and this is a hot and fairly new topic given that Thome just signed yesterday with a division rival...

Rdy2PlayBall
01-28-2010, 11:33 AM
I am sick of every. single. topic. on WSI discussing the same damn thing.:angry:Ya. They all get a little repetitive.

"The Sox suck! Thome was our savior and now the Twins will win the 85 games required to win the division! Wah wa wa... :whiner: :angry:"

doublem23
01-28-2010, 11:35 AM
I am sick of every. single. topic. on WSI discussing the same damn thing.:angry:

I think that's because most of us notice there's only one thing wrong with this team right now and that is a total lack of offensive punch.

Starting pitching - Great, arguably the best in the A.L.

Bullpen - Solid, potential to be very, very good, but bullpen arms fluctuate so wildly over the years that it's very hard to accurately predict what will happen. At any rate, our SP staff should eat enough innings to keep from overtaxing the bullpen so that should help.

Defense - I'm not as down on the Sox defensively as most, and I think they have a chance to be pretty average defensively. Not terribly wild about our OF defense, but we play in a small park with clean lines so that should help. Overall, I'm not going to get terribly worked up about defense.

Lineup - Sucks.

spawn
01-28-2010, 11:39 AM
Hey, Spawn tried to hijack it into a BA argument, but so far, no luck.
I'm actually really surprised it didn't work. I though BA discussions trumped everything.

Nellie_Fox
01-28-2010, 11:44 AM
I'm actually really surprised it didn't work. I though BA discussions trumped everything.Has dankerific been here yet?

SephClone89
01-28-2010, 11:45 AM
I think that's because most of us notice there's only one thing wrong with this team right now and that is a total lack of offensive punch.



So confine it to one thread.

All of these things bleed together.

voodoochile
01-28-2010, 11:50 AM
So confine it to one thread.

All of these things bleed together.

No worries, the one in WTS got closed when it approached 500 and Thome singed with the Twinkies. Now that thread discussing said signing is approaching 500 so soon it will get closed and the discussion will move here. See how that works? :tongue:

spawn
01-28-2010, 11:50 AM
Has dankerific been here yet?
Ah...probably not. There's still hope!

kittle42
01-28-2010, 12:01 PM
I'm actually really surprised it didn't work. I though BA discussions trumped everything.

He can't even start on the Royals.

asindc
01-28-2010, 12:05 PM
He can't even start on the Royals.

You did that on purpose!:D:

thedudeabides
01-28-2010, 12:13 PM
You did that on purpose!:D:

Now, we are picking up some steam. I also hear that Rowand may be available to add to the OF/DH mix. :duck:

SI1020
01-28-2010, 12:19 PM
Now, we are picking up some steam. I also hear that Rowand may be available to add to the OF/DH mix. :duck: I never understood the Rowand bashing.

spawn
01-28-2010, 12:21 PM
I never understood the Rowand bashing.
:shrug: He's overrated. He's a corner OF playing CF. The reason he made so many great catches is because he didn't read the ball off the bat well. Good thing he has makeup speed.

SI1020
01-28-2010, 12:50 PM
:shrug: He's overrated. He's a corner OF playing CF. The reason he made so many great catches is because he didn't read the ball off the bat well. Good thing he has makeup speed. A really overworked phrase around here. I guess I was watching somebody else. I often wonder who is considered good defensively and how one comes to that conclusion? Suffice to say I disagree with your assessment and again in order to head off further trouble, I had no problem with the trade that sent him to Philadelphia.

spawn
01-28-2010, 12:51 PM
A really overworked phrase around here. I guess I was watching somebody else. I often wonder who is considered good defensively and how one comes to that conclusion? Suffice to say I disagree with your assessment and again in order to head off further trouble, I had no problem with the trade that sent him to Philadelphia.
Well, that's your right. :shrug:

russ99
01-28-2010, 12:54 PM
http://www.chicagoist.com/attachments/chicago_benjy/2005_12_sports_frank_thomas.jpg

'I want to play. Whaddaya say we let by-gones be by-gones, KW? I can solve this problem!!'

No teal needed. I'd love to see Frank get one more shot here.

But he's not a lefty...

tstrike2000
01-28-2010, 01:17 PM
I know. Scary, huh?

It's too bad we can't bring back BA to be our DH to keep everyone happy.

JB98
01-28-2010, 01:21 PM
Since the Sox apparently like what they have and are going into the season with the lineup as it is, here is my concern:

We will need flawless execution to score runs. We need to get bunts down, hit behind runners, steal some bags, be smart on the bases, get the man in from third with less than two outs, hit with RISP, etc.

Alas, our offensive execution has been horse**** over the last three and a half years. It was very, very bad last year. Is it going to change? I'm not going to take that on faith. The team needs to show me they can do it before I can believe in them. Until then, this looks like a third-place roster to me.

WhiteSox5187
01-28-2010, 01:27 PM
Since the Sox apparently like what they have and are going into the season with the lineup as it is, here is my concern:

We will need flawless execution to score runs. We need to get bunts down, hit behind runners, steal some bags, be smart on the bases, get the man in from third with less than two outs, hit with RISP, etc.

Alas, our offensive execution has been horse**** over the last three and a half years. It was very, very bad last year. Is it going to change? I'm not going to take that on faith. The team needs to show me they can do it before I can believe in them. Until then, this looks like a third-place roster to me.

If this were any other division in baseball, I'd agree with you. Here are my concerns with the offense: 1. Can Quentin and Konerko stay healthy a full year? If they stay healthy, the I think it is safe to assume that they can be productive.

2. Can Alex Rios bounce back? Really, he can't be much worse than he was last year.

3. I think it's foolish to count on Jones and Kotsay for anything other than good production off the bench. They're kind of like Jayson Nix or Alex Cintron, play him every couple of days and they're good, play them as starters and their holes get exposed.

tstrike2000
01-28-2010, 01:28 PM
Since the Sox apparently like what they have and are going into the season with the lineup as it is, here is my concern:

We will need flawless execution to score runs. We need to get bunts down, hit behind runners, steal some bags, be smart on the bases, get the man in from third with less than two outs, hit with RISP, etc.

Alas, our offensive execution has been horse**** over the last three and a half years. It was very, very bad last year. Is it going to change? I'm not going to take that on faith. The team needs to show me they can do it before I can believe in them. Until then, this looks like a third-place roster to me.

We should have more of a lineup to do this. Of course, that does mean the team will have to actually focus more on the bunting like they mentioned doing at Soxfest. No offense to Chisoxgirl, but having people like Pods off the bases should help with the baserunning part as well.

voodoochile
01-28-2010, 01:49 PM
What about Jones' number last year make people so sure he'll be unable to produce this year?

In 82 games and 281 AB he posted 18 doubles and 17 HR. If he gets 500 AB that translates to 30 of each. He posted a .459 slg and took some walks (would be about 75 over 500 AB - I didn't actually do the math on it). The ONLY part of his offense that wasn't solid was his batting average. Honestly, if he can post the same slash line this year in the hitter's friendly park known as USCF then he can bat 6th and hopefully get some chances to drive in some runs.

Aside from the batting average, I expect the rest of his line to look like Thome's.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3520

Craig Grebeck
01-28-2010, 02:03 PM
What about Jones' number last year make people so sure he'll be unable to produce this year?

In 82 games and 281 AB he posted 18 doubles and 17 HR. If he gets 500 AB that translates to 30 of each. He posted a .459 slg and took some walks (would be about 75 over 500 AB - I didn't actually do the math on it). The ONLY part of his offense that wasn't solid was his batting average. Honestly, if he can post the same slash line this year in the hitter's friendly park known as USCF then he can bat 6th and hopefully get some chances to drive in some runs.

Aside from the batting average, I expect the rest of his line to look like Thome's.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3520
I think the concerns regarding Jones are valid for the following reasons:

1. He absolutely fell apart last season. Second half line: .185/.310/.333
2. His statline hasn't resembled Thome's in years, and I don't see that starting next season--unless Thome falls off a huge, huge cliff.
3. A road line of .199/.294/.411

I think counting on him for any production this season would be a huge mistake.

jabrch
01-28-2010, 02:31 PM
He can't even start on the Royals.


Because the manager and the GM don't like him because he got in a fight with their cousin....or because he isn't able to hit MLB pitching...not sure which.

:D:

swisherfan
01-28-2010, 02:32 PM
I am not worried about our offense.....now if Rios reverts back to his sub-Mendoza batting ave and Q is hurt again then that could be a problem....bottom line is we have 4 solid starters that are going to keep us in a lot of games.....and Freddy ain't a bad 5......the DH by committee could blow up in Ozzie's face....I personally don't think Jones will amount to anything, hope I am wrong.....i do like Kotsay but he has little power.....

SI1020
01-28-2010, 02:32 PM
Since the Sox apparently like what they have and are going into the season with the lineup as it is, here is my concern:

We will need flawless execution to score runs. We need to get bunts down, hit behind runners, steal some bags, be smart on the bases, get the man in from third with less than two outs, hit with RISP, etc.

Alas, our offensive execution has been horse**** over the last three and a half years. It was very, very bad last year. Is it going to change? I'm not going to take that on faith. The team needs to show me they can do it before I can believe in them. Until then, this looks like a third-place roster to me. Looks about like that to me too.

I think the concerns regarding Jones are valid for the following reasons:

1. He absolutely fell apart last season. Second half line: .185/.310/.333
2. His statline hasn't resembled Thome's in years, and I don't see that starting next season--unless Thome falls off a huge, huge cliff.
3. A road line of .199/.294/.411

I think counting on him for any production this season would be a huge mistake. And this.

jabrch
01-28-2010, 02:33 PM
Until then, this looks like a third-place roster to me.

Behind who? I assume the Minnesota Thomes, who else?

jabrch
01-28-2010, 02:35 PM
What about Jones' number last year make people so sure he'll be unable to produce this year?

In 82 games and 281 AB he posted 18 doubles and 17 HR. If he gets 500 AB that translates to 30 of each. He posted a .459 slg and took some walks (would be about 75 over 500 AB - I didn't actually do the math on it). The ONLY part of his offense that wasn't solid was his batting average. Honestly, if he can post the same slash line this year in the hitter's friendly park known as USCF then he can bat 6th and hopefully get some chances to drive in some runs.

Aside from the batting average, I expect the rest of his line to look like Thome's.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3520


Most guys leaving Texas don't hit as well - so there is reason to believe that...but as I posted, the difference in terms of overall production last year between the two, if you look at everything, is not significant. Not sure if that is damning to Jimmy or to Andruw...

Craig Grebeck
01-28-2010, 02:41 PM
Most guys leaving Texas don't hit as well - so there is reason to believe that...but as I posted, the difference in terms of overall production last year between the two, if you look at everything, is not significant. Not sure if that is damning to Jimmy or to Andruw...
Yeah, I think you may want to re-look at what I posted, or check the statsheets again. There most definitely is a significant difference.

twsoxfan5
01-28-2010, 03:02 PM
This team is not perfect right now but it is better then it was last year. It is that simple. I can't believe people are this upset about 40 year old Jim Thome not being on this team. Maybe I am biased though b/c I have never really liked his style of play. Fat, old, slow, often injured power hitters are not my favorite kind of players. Great guy though, so I guess I can tip my hat to him.

2009 Opening Day Lineup:
CF DeWayne Wise (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/DeWayne_Wise)
2B Chris Getz (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/Chris_Getz)
LF Carlos Quentin (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/Carlos_Quentin)
DH Jim Thome (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/Jim_Thome)
RF Jermaine Dye (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/Jermaine_Dye)
1B Paul Konerko (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/Paul_Konerko)
C A.J. Pierzynski (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/A.J._Pierzynski)
SS Alexei Ramírez (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/Alexei_Ram%C3%ADrez)
3B Josh Fields (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/Josh_Fields_(infielder))

Predicted 2010:
CF: Alex Rios
2B: Gordon Beckham
LF: Juan Pierre
DH: Andruw Jones
RF: Carlos Quentin
1B: Paul Konerko
C: AJ Pierzynski
SS: Alexei Ramirez
3B: Mark Teahen

If this line up does not look way better to you then I think you hate baseball. You can make the argument for sure that Thome is better then Jones, but you don't even know that. As far as I'm concerned I am much more excited about this team than I was about last year's team and this is not even including the much better pitching staff.

dickallen15
01-28-2010, 03:13 PM
This team is not perfect right now but it is better then it was last year. It is that simple. I can't believe people are this upset about 40 year old Jim Thome not being on this team. Maybe I am biased though b/c I have never really liked his style of play. Fat, old, slow, often injured power hitters are not my favorite kind of players. Great guy though, so I guess I can tip my hat to him.

2009 Opening Day Lineup:
CF DeWayne Wise (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/DeWayne_Wise)
2B Chris Getz (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/Chris_Getz)
LF Carlos Quentin (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/Carlos_Quentin)
DH Jim Thome (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/Jim_Thome)
RF Jermaine Dye (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/Jermaine_Dye)
1B Paul Konerko (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/Paul_Konerko)
C A.J. Pierzynski (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/A.J._Pierzynski)
SS Alexei Ramírez (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/Alexei_Ram%C3%ADrez)
3B Josh Fields (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/wiki/Josh_Fields_(infielder))

Predicted 2010:
CF: Alex Rios
2B: Gordon Beckham
LF: Juan Pierre
DH: Andruw Jones
RF: Carlos Quentin
1B: Paul Konerko
C: AJ Pierzynski
SS: Alexei Ramirez
3B: Mark Teahen

If this line up does not look way better to you then I think you hate baseball. You can make the argument for sure that Thome is better then Jones, but you don't even know that. As far as I'm concerned I am much more excited about this team than I was about last year's team and this is not even including the much better pitching staff.

You're assuming the opening day line up in 2009 was the regular line up for 162 games. It simply isn't true. It was a below average team. There are a lot of teams that will have a better opening day line up than the 2009 White Sox in 2010 and will have zero chance at making the playoffs.

Craig Grebeck
01-28-2010, 03:15 PM
You can make the argument for sure that Thome is better then Jones, but you don't even know that.
As subjective as these discussions often are, I think I most certainly know that.

twsoxfan5
01-28-2010, 03:36 PM
As subjective as these discussions often are, I think I most certainly know that.

I guess we will just wait and see.

twsoxfan5
01-28-2010, 03:38 PM
You're assuming the opening day line up in 2009 was the regular line up for 162 games. It simply isn't true. It was a below average team. There are a lot of teams that will have a better opening day line up than the 2009 White Sox in 2010 and will have zero chance at making the playoffs.

You are right that the opening day line up was not the one used throughout the season. The lineup did improve as the season went along and now it is even better. I don't love this lineup but I like it better then last years.

voodoochile
01-28-2010, 03:48 PM
You are right that the opening day line up was not the one used throughout the season. The lineup did improve as the season went along and now it is even better. I don't love this lineup but I like it better then last years.

Going Position by Position...

1B PK = PK
2B Beckham >>> Getz/Nix
SS TCM 10 >= TCM 09
3B Teahen = Beckham 09
LF Pierre = Pods (though not TCQ)
CF Rios > Pods et al including Rios
RF TCQ = Dye
C AJ = AJ
DH Jones < Thome

KMcMahon817
01-28-2010, 03:51 PM
Yes, I know, it's crazy to think the White Sox would be stupid to head into the season without a DH.

Save me the "can't talk about the team before ST/Opening Day/All-Star Break/Trading Deadline/Waiver Deadline/Roster Expansion/Off-Season/SoxFest" bull****.

Yeah, you used that one yesterday.

asindc
01-28-2010, 03:54 PM
Going Position by Position...

1B PK = PK
2B Beckham >>> Getz/Nix
SS TCM 10 >= TCM 09
3B Teahen = Beckham 09
LF Pierre = Pods (though not TCQ)
CF Rios > Pods et al including Rios
RF TCQ = Dye
C AJ = AJ
DH Jones < Thome

I agree with those, except I would do..

RF- TCQ > Dye

twsoxfan5
01-28-2010, 04:00 PM
Going Position by Position...

1B PK = PK
2B Beckham >>> Getz/Nix
SS TCM 10 >= TCM 09
3B Teahen = Beckham 09
LF Pierre = Pods (though not TCQ)
CF Rios > Pods et al including Rios
RF TCQ = Dye
C AJ = AJ
DH Jones < Thome

Can't argue with that.

doublem23
01-28-2010, 04:05 PM
I agree with those, except I would do..

RF- TCQ > Dye

That depends on if its the TCQ of 2008 who was healthy for almost the entire season for the only time in his career, or if it will be the TCQ of every other of his pro seasons in which he is injury-prone and a non-factor.

JB98
01-28-2010, 09:24 PM
We should have more of a lineup to do this. Of course, that does mean the team will have to actually focus more on the bunting like they mentioned doing at Soxfest. No offense to Chisoxgirl, but having people like Pods off the bases should help with the baserunning part as well.

Well, maybe. Getz and Pods were "small-ballers." They were subtracted this offseason. Bringing in Pierre and Teahen to replace them is pretty much a wash, unless Teahen has the big breakout season that KW hopes for -- a big if.

Last year's club actually did have some speed at the top and at the bottom, and the strikeout count really wasn't that high. But they didn't score nearly enough runs, primarily because they couldn't advance runners and the hitting with RISP was dreadful for most of the year.

The Sox have been talking about better offensive execution for years. I'm just going to be skeptical until they prove to me that they can do it.

I'm very concerned that this championship-caliber pitching staff is going to go to waste because of an inept offense. Like I said earlier, a lack of offensive execution will leave us right where we were last year -- third place.

Lip Man 1
01-28-2010, 10:40 PM
JB:

That last few lines is very true.

Lip

jabrch
01-28-2010, 10:44 PM
a lack of offensive execution will leave us right where we were last year -- third place.

Serious Q - Behind who? The Minnesota Thomes and ? I'm not smart enough to predict the outcome of a baseball season. But I'm willing to bet a significant amount that this team doesn't finish behind KC, Cleveland or Detroit.

JB98
01-29-2010, 12:17 AM
Serious Q - Behind who? The Minnesota Thomes and ? I'm not smart enough to predict the outcome of a baseball season. But I'm willing to bet a significant amount that this team doesn't finish behind KC, Cleveland or Detroit.

Minnesota and Detroit.

The Tigers have taken a step back offensively, but I'm fearful that the Sox have as well.

In any case, does it really matter who finishes second or third? The Sox need much, much better offensive execution this year if they hope to win the division -- even with the best rotation in the Central.

We have outstanding pitching, yet I'm not convinced this is a .500 team, let alone a playoff team. I'm not sold on this team offensively, nor am I sold that the Sox will play strong defense to support the pitching.

Could the Sox put it together and win the division? Well, anything can happen, but I don't have high expectations coming into the year. I've been surprised before. Hopefully, I will be surprised this season.

Hitmen77
01-29-2010, 08:57 AM
Going Position by Position...

1B PK = PK
2B Beckham >>> Getz/Nix
SS TCM 10 >= TCM 09
3B Teahen = Beckham 09
LF Pierre = Pods (though not TCQ)
CF Rios > Pods et al including Rios
RF TCQ = Dye
C AJ = AJ
DH Jones < Thome

Good list. To make things easier (since we're only talking about offense here), I'd even say you should just compare Beckham 10 to Beckham 09 and then Teahen to Getz/Nix.

Teahen should be an improvement over Getz. As far as Beckham, he's got a bright future but for 2010 vs. 2009 it depends on how he continues to adjust to MLB pitching.

The problem with Jones his that, the way he has played the last 3 seasons, he could be struggling to stay above .200. If he does that, then what? Start Kotsay every day? Or perhaps the Sox will have to go to Flowers or Viciedo in that hole?

The two guys that really need to succeed this year are Quentin and Rios. If they have a repeat of their 09 struggles, then we're in big trouble.


Minnesota and Detroit.

The Tigers have taken a step back offensively, but I'm fearful that the Sox have as well.

In any case, does it really matter who finishes second or third? The Sox need much, much better offensive execution this year if they hope to win the division -- even with the best rotation in the Central.

We have outstanding pitching, yet I'm not convinced this is a .500 team, let alone a playoff team. I'm not sold on this team offensively, nor am I sold that the Sox will play strong defense to support the pitching.

Could the Sox put it together and win the division? Well, anything can happen, but I don't have high expectations coming into the year. I've been surprised before. Hopefully, I will be surprised this season.

Well said.

I can easily see our team finishing 3rd again behind DET and MIN. Of course there are bright spots on this team (the rotation) and I'm hopeful that they can surprise me. But that lineup still had glaring holes and the defense is suspect.

asindc
01-29-2010, 09:11 AM
Good list. To make things easier (since we're only talking about offense here), I'd even say you should just compare Beckham 10 to Beckham 09 and then Teahen to Getz/Nix.

Teahen should be an improvement over Getz. As far as Beckham, he's got a bright future but for 2010 vs. 2009 it depends on how he continues to adjust to MLB pitching.

The problem with Jones his that, the way he has played the last 3 seasons, he could be struggling to stay above .200. If he does that, then what? Start Kotsay every day? Or perhaps the Sox will have to go to Flowers or Viciedo in that hole?

The two guys that really need to succeed this year are Quentin and Rios. If they have a repeat of their 09 struggles, then we're in big trouble.




Well said.

I can easily see our team finishing 3rd again behind DET and MIN. Of course there are bright spots on this team (the rotation) and I'm hopeful that they can surprise me. But that lineup still had glaring holes and the defense is suspect.

It is within the realm of possibility, of course, but if every team plays up to par, I think Detroit will be lucky to finish within 5 games of the Sox. Granderson, Polanco, Edwin Jackson, and Rodney have not been replaced by comparable or better players, unless you think Austin Jackson, Polanco's replacement, Scherzer, and Schlereth are on par or upgrades.

asindc
01-29-2010, 09:30 AM
Good list. To make things easier (since we're only talking about offense here), I'd even say you should just compare Beckham 10 to Beckham 09 and then Teahen to Getz/Nix.

Teahen should be an improvement over Getz. As far as Beckham, he's got a bright future but for 2010 vs. 2009 it depends on how he continues to adjust to MLB pitching.

The problem with Jones his that, the way he has played the last 3 seasons, he could be struggling to stay above .200. If he does that, then what? Start Kotsay every day? Or perhaps the Sox will have to go to Flowers or Viciedo in that hole?

The two guys that really need to succeed this year are Quentin and Rios. If they have a repeat of their 09 struggles, then we're in big trouble.




Well said.

I can easily see our team finishing 3rd again behind DET and MIN. Of course there are bright spots on this team (the rotation) and I'm hopeful that they can surprise me. But that lineup still had glaring holes and the defense is suspect.

I agree, but I think that is far less likely to happen than Detroit regressing offensively and defensively.

jabrch
01-29-2010, 10:54 AM
The Tigers have taken a step back offensively, but I'm fearful that the Sox have as well.

Neither offense is great - but Detroit's pitching is also bad; both the back 3/5 of their rotaiton AND their pen. I don't see how we finish behind them. Doesn't mean it can't happen - but I don't see it. I'm completely unsure what Minny will look like in the new park - so I don't know.

In any case, does it really matter who finishes second or third?

It does in the context of your statement (that you made more than once) that the Sox will finish third.

The Sox need much, much better offensive execution this year if they hope to win the division -- even with the best rotation in the Central.

Not sure what that means - if they have the best pitching in the central, and deliver the same offensive production as last year, they could still win this division. This remains a bad division with 2 really bad teams and no dominant team. The Minnesota Thome's are no more comfortable than we are. And we have no clue how leaving the dome will impact them, if at all.

We have outstanding pitching, yet I'm not convinced this is a .500 team, let alone a playoff team. I'm not sold on this team offensively, nor am I sold that the Sox will play strong defense to support the pitching.

Me neither - I have no clue what this team will be. But I'm no more convinced that they will make the playoffs than I am that they won't. Hard to predict with any surety.

Could the Sox put it together and win the division? Well, anything can happen,

Sure - anything can happen - but that needs to be put in context. It's not impossible that any team win the division this year...but the question is likelihood. The Indians and Royals - anything can happen - but it would be a miracle. The Tigers? a major surprise. The Sox or the Thomes? I'm calling it a coin toss. Neither team is great - but both teams have some of the key parts. Health, variance in performance, impacts from unexpected players, farms, and a million other variables play into it.

but I don't have high expectations coming into the year. I've been surprised before. Hopefully, I will be surprised this season.

I have no expectations - too hard to predict. But having no expectations is different than hanging myself over expectations of failure (not that you are doing that...) I'm more than willing to go into the season without expectations and see how things go. Is it that you "don't have high expectations" or that you have "expectations of a negative outcome" - because those are two different things. When you say that (if XXX happens) that you think we will finish 3rd, that's different to me. That's having expectations of failure. I honestly don't see how the Tigers are better than this club just looking at the two rosters. For all the handwringing over our DH, they are going to trot out Carlos Guillen who is not the player he was a few years ago. Adam Everett and Ramon Santiago? I'll take Alexei and Gordon. Inge or Teahen? I like our side there. Sure - I'll take Miguel Cabrerra over PK - no doubt. Jackson/Rayburn/Ordonez vs Pierre/Rios/TCQ? Feels like a coin toss to me. Can't make predictions there with any confidence.

Bottom line - I'm not calling this team a Division Champ today, but I am surely not calling it out of the race. In fact, I won't predict anyone is a lock to be better than us given what we have seen so far.

Craig Grebeck
01-29-2010, 10:56 AM
I think I might end up jumping out a window if I have to read jabrch refer to Minnesota as the Thomes all season.

I get it. You think we're crying about Thome. We're not, we're crying about Ozzie's philosophy. There are a million other reasons to fear the Twins.

JB98
01-29-2010, 01:21 PM
Neither offense is great - but Detroit's pitching is also bad; both the back 3/5 of their rotaiton AND their pen. I don't see how we finish behind them. Doesn't mean it can't happen - but I don't see it. I'm completely unsure what Minny will look like in the new park - so I don't know.



It does in the context of your statement (that you made more than once) that the Sox will finish third.



Not sure what that means - if they have the best pitching in the central, and deliver the same offensive production as last year, they could still win this division. This remains a bad division with 2 really bad teams and no dominant team. The Minnesota Thome's are no more comfortable than we are. And we have no clue how leaving the dome will impact them, if at all.



Me neither - I have no clue what this team will be. But I'm no more convinced that they will make the playoffs than I am that they won't. Hard to predict with any surety.



Sure - anything can happen - but that needs to be put in context. It's not impossible that any team win the division this year...but the question is likelihood. The Indians and Royals - anything can happen - but it would be a miracle. The Tigers? a major surprise. The Sox or the Thomes? I'm calling it a coin toss. Neither team is great - but both teams have some of the key parts. Health, variance in performance, impacts from unexpected players, farms, and a million other variables play into it.



I have no expectations - too hard to predict. But having no expectations is different than hanging myself over expectations of failure (not that you are doing that...) I'm more than willing to go into the season without expectations and see how things go. Is it that you "don't have high expectations" or that you have "expectations of a negative outcome" - because those are two different things. When you say that (if XXX happens) that you think we will finish 3rd, that's different to me. That's having expectations of failure. I honestly don't see how the Tigers are better than this club just looking at the two rosters. For all the handwringing over our DH, they are going to trot out Carlos Guillen who is not the player he was a few years ago. Adam Everett and Ramon Santiago? I'll take Alexei and Gordon. Inge or Teahen? I like our side there. Sure - I'll take Miguel Cabrerra over PK - no doubt. Jackson/Rayburn/Ordonez vs Pierre/Rios/TCQ? Feels like a coin toss to me. Can't make predictions there with any confidence.

Bottom line - I'm not calling this team a Division Champ today, but I am surely not calling it out of the race. In fact, I won't predict anyone is a lock to be better than us given what we have seen so far.

You obviously have a different personality than I do. I'm willing to make predictions. Sometimes, I'm proven right. Other times, I eat my words.

jabrch
01-29-2010, 01:23 PM
You obviously have a different personality than I do. I'm willing to make predictions. Sometimes, I'm proven right. Other times, I eat my words.


I make a living (building and supporting technology that is designed for) making predictions. But I do it with facts and data. Making predictions of the unpredictable is a different story.

JB98
01-29-2010, 01:31 PM
I make a living (building and supporting technology that is designed for) making predictions. But I do it with facts and data. Making predictions of the unpredictable is a different story.

Like I said, you obviously have a different personality than I do.

FielderJones
01-29-2010, 01:47 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100128&content_id=7989492&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

asindc
01-29-2010, 02:47 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100128&content_id=7989492&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

I'm not surprised.

Hitmen77
01-29-2010, 03:00 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100128&content_id=7989492&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

I wonder what it would cost the Sox to land a productive hitter in May or June or July?

This article doesn't totally close the door on the possibility of the Sox signing Damon in the offseason (I'm assuming if his price falls far enough), but suggests that the Sox are going to go with Jones/Kotsay into the season and then maybe look for someone midseason if that doesn't work out.

voodoochile
01-29-2010, 03:02 PM
I wonder what it would cost the Sox to land a productive hitter in May or June or July?

This article doesn't totally close the door on the possibility of the Sox signing Damon in the offseason (I'm assuming if his price falls far enough), but suggests that the Sox are going to go with Jones/Kotsay into the season and then maybe look for someone midseason if that doesn't work out.

That also give Flowers and Viciedo time to develop in Charlotte. Not saying I expect them to become the answer, but I can also see why the Sox might think it could happen...

Craig Grebeck
01-29-2010, 03:46 PM
That also give Flowers and Viciedo time to develop in Charlotte. Not saying I expect them to become the answer, but I can also see why the Sox might think it could happen...
I just can't. Flowers' bat will take a bit to come around, and he needs to catch. Dayan would need to be unconscious and a completely different hitter to reach MLB in 2010.

dickallen15
01-29-2010, 03:47 PM
I was shocked to read the Sox were 8-59 in games they scored less than 4 runs. You would think they would win at least a couple games a month when scoring 3.

You need to score runs in the AL. Please KW, bring in some more offense.

kittle42
01-29-2010, 04:45 PM
I was shocked to read the Sox were 8-59 in games they scored less than 4 runs. You would think they would win at least a couple games a month when scoring 3.

You need to score runs in the AL. Please KW, bring in some more offense.

Exactly. And 3 of those starters we love so much were also starters last year - it's not like all these less-than-4-run-games were being lost by everyone but Buehrle, Danks, and Floyd.

voodoochile
01-29-2010, 04:59 PM
Exactly. And 3 of those starters we love so much were also starters last year - it's not like all these less-than-4-run-games were being lost by everyone but Buehrle, Danks, and Floyd.

No, but when you replace two washed up older pitchers with Jake ****ing Peavy and Freddy Garcia (who pitched acceptably last year in the time he was on the team) then you do expect to win a few more of those games when you score less runs. 15-52 gets them a game 163...

asindc
01-29-2010, 05:33 PM
Exactly. And 3 of those starters we love so much were also starters last year - it's not like all these less-than-4-run-games were being lost by everyone but Buehrle, Danks, and Floyd.

And, of course, there is no reason to believe that Danks and Floyd will get better. None at all.