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Sockinchisox
01-26-2010, 05:07 PM
http://www.twincities.com/ci_14272117?nclick_check=1

SOXfnNlansing
01-26-2010, 05:09 PM
I can't get the link to work:scratch:

Nevermind, it works now :)

Foulke You
01-26-2010, 05:10 PM
Ugh. It just had to be the Twins...

Rdy2PlayBall
01-26-2010, 05:11 PM
Well. He will have at least 50 RBIs against us. Yippee!

DaveFeelsRight
01-26-2010, 05:14 PM
calling it now, thome is gonna hurt us.

DumpJerry
01-26-2010, 05:15 PM
Well. He will have at least 50 RBIs against us. Yippee!
During the 2010 season? Care to make a wager on that?:rolleyes:

doublem23
01-26-2010, 05:15 PM
GOD ****ING DAMNIT

If the Sox blow the division this year because they have no offense, Ozzie better be fired out of a cannon into Lake Michigan.

getonbckthr
01-26-2010, 05:15 PM
Buerhle, Danks, Thornton and wicked Peavy i'm not too concerned.

Rdy2PlayBall
01-26-2010, 05:16 PM
calling it now, thome is gonna hurt us.I think my post before it called it first. :(:

But yah... there is no way he goes the season without pissing us off at least once. He will probably win them more games too, so that will hurt. This guy might want to get the rest of his 30 homeruns or so this year, he might have one of those pre-free agency booming seasons.

During the 2010 season? Care to make a wager on that?:rolleyes:Can against us mean against other teams in baseball but they link back to us somehow in the division... so theoretically they are against us? Then YES! :D

doublem23
01-26-2010, 05:16 PM
Buerhle, Danks, Thornton and wicked Peavy i'm not too concerned.

I can't wait to lose all those games 1-0.

JermaineDye05
01-26-2010, 05:18 PM
I actually feel that Jim will be retired come the end of the season.

DumpJerry
01-26-2010, 05:19 PM
Did any of you doom amd gloom guys actually read the link? They're sticking with Kubel as their primary DH and using Jim off the bench.

doublem23
01-26-2010, 05:20 PM
Did any of you doom a gloom guys actually read the link? They're sticking with Kubel as their primary DH and using Jim off the bench.

So the Twins have 2 better DHs than we do?

****ING AWESOME

:Rocker:

JermaineDye05
01-26-2010, 05:20 PM
GOD ****ING DAMNIT

If the Sox blow the division this year because they have no offense, Ozzie better be fired out of a cannon into Lake Michigan.

Seriously the love for Thome is ****ing ridiculous. People are not only acting like this is the Thome from the 90's, but also that we're in the AL East. This move doesn't bother me the least except for the fact that I see one of my favorite players on my least favorite team, but hey that's baseball.

getonbckthr
01-26-2010, 05:21 PM
I can't wait to lose all those games 1-0.
:darkclouds:
Guys lets relax here. What is Thome gonna do? Hit 25-26 hrs with a .249 average? Give Jayson Nix 500 AB's and he'll get ya the same thing (based on his 1 full season).

JermaineDye05
01-26-2010, 05:21 PM
Did any of you doom amd gloom guys actually read the link? They're sticking with Kubel as their primary DH and using Jim off the bench.

I'm more concerned of Kubel than I am of Jim Thome to be perfectly honest.

Rdy2PlayBall
01-26-2010, 05:21 PM
Did any of you doom amd gloom guys actually read the link? They're sticking with Kubel as their primary DH and using Jim off the bench.I don't understand why he would sign that kind of deal. If he's going to get 600... Two years of playing just most of the time is easily enough. Now he may need 3.

getonbckthr
01-26-2010, 05:22 PM
So the Twins have 2 better DHs than we do?

****ING AWESOME

:Rocker:
Well you only use one DH in the lineup.

doublem23
01-26-2010, 05:22 PM
:darkclouds:
Guys lets relax here. What is Thome gonna do? Hit 25-26 hrs with a .249 average? Give Jayson Nix 500 AB's and he'll get ya the same thing (based on his 1 full season).

Thome hits .249 = .360 OBP. Nix his .249 = OBP .251.

doublem23
01-26-2010, 05:23 PM
Well you only use one DH in the lineup.

Unless you're the Sox in which case you have 0.

Frontman
01-26-2010, 05:23 PM
Is ANYTHING official yet?

Lundind1
01-26-2010, 05:24 PM
This bothers the hell out of me. It seems that most of the time, the first game back, whoever the ex-Sox player is, manages to kill us. This time it was Ozzie's call, supposedly. I would take Thome over whoever they decide to stick in that hole.

And they said it was over the number of AB's. BULL. I am really starting to wonder about the value of anything the Sox front office has to say.

JermaineDye05
01-26-2010, 05:25 PM
Unless you're the Sox in which case you have 0.

The Sox also have 3 aces (possibly 4). I find that much more valuable than one DH.

Rdy2PlayBall
01-26-2010, 05:25 PM
Thome hits .249 = .360 OBP. Nix his .249 = OBP .251.Nix steals 80% successfully. Can runs the bases. Can play almost every position. I'd almost rather have Nix. Also, I'm not saying it would, but I believe his avg. would go up to around .260 with a full season. Just like Brian Anderson's would go up to .750 with a full season.

DirtySox
01-26-2010, 05:25 PM
If the Sox blow the division this year because they have no offense, Ozzie better be fired out of a cannon into Lake Michigan.

Seconded.

And this isn't about Jim Thome specifically. It's about not signing a clear upgrade for peanuts compared to our current pitiful DH option(s).

doublem23
01-26-2010, 05:26 PM
\
And they said it was over the number of AB's. BULL. I am really starting to wonder about the value of anything the Sox front office has to say.

If Ozzie was going to have seriously problems fitting JIM THOME in the lineup over guys like Andruw Jones and Mark Kotsay, he needs to be hit over the head with a baseball bat.

Lundind1
01-26-2010, 05:26 PM
Well you only use one DH in the lineup.

Doesn't matter. If you have a position that will contribute night in and night out for 162 games offensively, it could be the difference between the 2009 White Sox and actually winning the division with 95 wins.

getonbckthr
01-26-2010, 05:27 PM
Unless you're the Sox in which case you have 0.
This isn't something to get worked up about. Now if the situation was the Sox and Twins were fighting over Lackety, Figgins or Holliday and the Twins got the guy and we didnt then I would be upset. However this is a great guy on the tail end of his career who just signed an incentive based contract to come off the bench. I just don't see this hurting us.

soxinem1
01-26-2010, 05:27 PM
http://www.tvland.com/photogallery/photos/Psycho.jpg

This isn't something to get worked up about. Now if the situation was the Sox and Twins were fighting over Lackety, Figgins or Holliday and the Twins got the guy and we didnt then I would be upset. However this is a great guy on the tail end of his career who just signed an incentive based contract to come off the bench. I just don't see this hurting us.

Who will be facing us in at least 15 of the 19 times we play MIN.

Lundind1
01-26-2010, 05:27 PM
If Ozzie was going to have seriously problems fitting JIM THOME in the lineup over guys like Andruw Jones and Mark Kotsay, he needs to be hit over the head with a baseball bat.

That is why I am starting to wonder what the deal is here with the move that they have made.

doublem23
01-26-2010, 05:28 PM
This isn't something to get worked up about. Now if the situation was the Sox and Twins were fighting over Lackety, Figgins or Holliday and the Twins got the guy and we didnt then I would be upset. However this is a great guy on the tail end of his career who just signed an incentive based contract to come off the bench. I just don't see this hurting us.

He's coming off the bench because the "smallball" Twins have more pop in their lineup than we do.

And it hurts us because he's not here. Every day Thome sits on the bench in Minnesota that's one more day we're starting Jones, Kotsay, or (GOD FORBID) Vizquel.

Danielgosox38
01-26-2010, 05:28 PM
The Sox also have 3 aces (possibly 4). I find that much more valuable than one DH.

Can't win if you can't score.

DumpJerry
01-26-2010, 05:30 PM
I don't understand why he would sign that kind of deal. If he's going to get 600... Two years of playing just most of the time is easily enough. Now he may need 3.
Maybe it was the only offer he got?

JermaineDye05
01-26-2010, 05:30 PM
Can't win if you can't score.

Neither can the other team.

Lundind1
01-26-2010, 05:31 PM
Can't win if you can't score.

The real telltale sign will be which team scores more runs in the regular season. If I had my call, I would put money on the Twins. I am tired of hearing that they are going to "fail" in a new ballpark.

I just have a hard time seeing this Sox lineup scoring more runs. Now with that said....Prove me wrong this season.

JermaineDye05
01-26-2010, 05:31 PM
I love how some people act as if we have Jones, Vizquel, Kotsay at 1-9 throughout the lineup.

soxinem1
01-26-2010, 05:33 PM
He's coming off the bench because the "smallball" Twins have more pop in their lineup than we do.

And it hurts us because he's not here. Every day Thome sits on the bench in Minnesota that's one more day we're starting Jones, Kotsay, or (GOD FORBID) Vizquel.

Thome is going to play if he hits, plain and simple. They will not put up with Delmon Young's crap production long. Kubel will just move to LF.

Then we'll have to worry about JT hitting us like in his CLE days, and Kubel hitting us like he does in every at bat.

Ozzie will respond by having Vizquel/Nix/Kotsay in the DH role batting 9th.

DirtySox
01-26-2010, 05:33 PM
I love how some people act as if we have Jones, Vizquel, Kotsay at 1-9 throughout the lineup.

Sunday games might well have all of them in the lineup as well as Castro. Sickening.

JermaineDye05
01-26-2010, 05:34 PM
The real telltale sign will be which team scores more runs in the regular season. If I had my call, I would put money on the Twins. I am tired of hearing that they are going to "fail" in a new ballpark.

I just have a hard time seeing this Sox lineup scoring more runs. Now with that said....Prove me wrong this season.

The sox may not score much but the pitching staff is going to give up a whole lot less.

Then again this is baseball so anything could happen. Hell, Jake Peavy could lose 20 games with an ERA at 7 while Andruw Jones could hit 60+ HRs and drive in 150+.

Let's wait until the season until we start passing judgment. Nothing is set in stone.

JermaineDye05
01-26-2010, 05:35 PM
Sunday games might well have all of them in the lineup as well as Castro. Sickening.

I'm gonna put money down and say that if the White Sox win the world series this year, it will be on a Sunday. Wouldn't that be a sweet slice of irony?

getonbckthr
01-26-2010, 05:37 PM
Hypothetically lets say mid-May rolls around and Jones/Kotsay isn't the DH answer do you honestly believe Kenny, Jerry and Ozzie are gonna sit there and let them hold us back? At the deadline you figure A-Gonzalez will be available as will probably Dunn. Who knows pending on how the Brewers and Astros seasons go Fielder, Lee and Berkman may even be available. Ya it sucks seeing Thome with the Twins from a personal/fan point of view. From a pure baseball point of view its not as bad as everyone is making it to be.

doublem23
01-26-2010, 05:38 PM
I love how some people act as if we have Jones, Vizquel, Kotsay at 1-9 throughout the lineup.


Juan Pierre - 4 of his last 5 seasons have been mediocre at best.
Gordon Beckham - Shining star, he's good
Paul Konerko - Love Paulie, still think he's got some good left in the tank but when he's your most proven source of power, wow you are lacking in muscle
Carlos Quentin - 50% chance he'll be a beast, 50% chance he'll miss 120 games because of injury
Alex Rios - Everyone is high on him because of his tools, but performance has been lacking. Hit under .200 in 41 games here last year, for ****'s sake.
AJ Pierzynski - When he is your 2nd best, proven bat, that is some offensive trouble
Mark Teahen - Career OPS under 100. Seriously.
Alexei Ramirez - 50% chance he'll be a best, 50% chance he'll swing at everything within 20 yards of the plate.
Crap DH - :puking:

JermaineDye05
01-26-2010, 05:39 PM
Hypothetically lets say mid-May rolls around and Jones/Kotsay isn't the DH answer do you honestly believe Kenny, Jerry and Ozzie are gonna sit there and let them hold us back? At the deadline you figure A-Gonzalez will be available as will probably Dunn. Who knows pending on how the Brewers and Astros seasons go Fielder, Lee and Berkman may even be available. Ya it sucks seeing Thome with the Twins from a personal/fan point of view. From a pure baseball point of view its not as bad as everyone is making it to be.

Exactly.

SoxNation05
01-26-2010, 05:40 PM
So the Twins have 2 better DHs than we do?

****ING AWESOME

:Rocker:

I would rather say that then what a Twin's fan would have to say: "So the Sox have 4 starting pitchers better than our ace?"

doublem23
01-26-2010, 05:40 PM
Sunday games might well have all of them in the lineup as well as Castro. Sickening.

Sunday Lineup:



Nix, LF
Bacon, 2B
Quentin, DH
Jones, RF
Rios, CF
Teahen, 3B
Kotsay, 1B
Vizquel, SS
Castro, C

/head asplode

doublem23
01-26-2010, 05:42 PM
Hypothetically lets say mid-May rolls around and Jones/Kotsay isn't the DH answer do you honestly believe Kenny, Jerry and Ozzie are gonna sit there and let them hold us back? At the deadline you figure A-Gonzalez will be available as will probably Dunn. Who knows pending on how the Brewers and Astros seasons go Fielder, Lee and Berkman may even be available. Ya it sucks seeing Thome with the Twins from a personal/fan point of view. From a pure baseball point of view its not as bad as everyone is making it to be.

It would be a lot nicer to just get someone now, so that we don't have to watch miserable baseball for months and ultimately blow the division by 5 games because we lost 10 games in April and May by a run.

getonbckthr
01-26-2010, 05:42 PM
As far as the sox offense goes why do people feel we won't score? Because we won't have a softball team out there?

DirtySox
01-26-2010, 05:43 PM
Sunday Lineup:



Pierre, CF
Bacon, 2B
Quentin, DH
Jones, RF
Rios, LF
Teahen, 3B
Kotsay, 1B
Nix, SS
Castro, C

/head asplode

It gets worse. You forgot Vizquel.

GoGoCrede
01-26-2010, 05:43 PM
**** my life. :whiner:

I've already given them Joe, what more do they want?!?!?

doublem23
01-26-2010, 05:44 PM
It gets worse. You forgot Vizquel.

I know, I just edited it. I knew there was somebody else on this team that sucks.

getonbckthr
01-26-2010, 05:45 PM
Juan Pierre - 4 of his last 5 seasons have been mediocre at best.
Gordon Beckham - Shining star, he's good
Paul Konerko - Love Paulie, still think he's got some good left in the tank but when he's your most proven source of power, wow you are lacking in muscle
Carlos Quentin - 50% chance he'll be a beast, 50% chance he'll miss 120 games because of injury
Alex Rios - Everyone is high on him because of his tools, but performance has been lacking. Hit under .200 in 41 games here last year, for ****'s sake.
AJ Pierzynski - When he is your 2nd best, proven bat, that is some offensive trouble
Mark Teahen - Career OPS under 100. Seriously.
Alexei Ramirez - 50% chance he'll be a best, 50% chance he'll swing at everything within 20 yards of the plate.
Crap DH - :puking:

Dodgers screwed him over when the acquired manny ramirez.

SoxNation05
01-26-2010, 05:45 PM
This makes Randy Winn seem a lot better.

JermaineDye05
01-26-2010, 05:47 PM
Juan Pierre - 4 of his last 5 seasons have been mediocre at best.
Gordon Beckham - Shining star, he's good
Paul Konerko - Love Paulie, still think he's got some good left in the tank but when he's your most proven source of power, wow you are lacking in muscle
Carlos Quentin - 50% chance he'll be a beast, 50% chance he'll miss 120 games because of injury
Alex Rios - Everyone is high on him because of his tools, but performance has been lacking. Hit under .200 in 41 games here last year, for ****'s sake.
AJ Pierzynski - When he is your 2nd best, proven bat, that is some offensive trouble
Mark Teahen - Career OPS under 100. Seriously.
Alexei Ramirez - 50% chance he'll be a best, 50% chance he'll swing at everything within 20 yards of the plate.
Crap DH - :puking:



Look at the Twins lineup and tell me, outside of Morneau and Mauer, are you really that concerned? Then look at their pitching rotation, are you ****ing kidding me?

Then again it's the Twins and they're always there.

A lot of things can look great or dismal when you merely look at what's on paper. Wait until the season. This team could actually wind up meshing well together and do something special that we haven't seen for just over 4 years.

doublem23
01-26-2010, 05:48 PM
Dodgers screwed him over when the acquired manny ramirez.

That certainly explains why he sucked ass with the Marlins in 2005, the Cubs in 2006, and the Dodgers for all of 2007 and the pre-Manny days in 2008.

LoveYourSuit
01-26-2010, 05:48 PM
Hypothetically lets say mid-May rolls around and Jones/Kotsay isn't the DH answer do you honestly believe Kenny, Jerry and Ozzie are gonna sit there and let them hold us back? At the deadline you figure A-Gonzalez will be available as will probably Dunn. Who knows pending on how the Brewers and Astros seasons go Fielder, Lee and Berkman may even be available. Ya it sucks seeing Thome with the Twins from a personal/fan point of view. From a pure baseball point of view its not as bad as everyone is making it to be.


Yeah, Great. The old let's piss away games in April and May mentality because they don't count on the scheduled :rolleyes:

Let's have extended Spring Training for those months to find out Kotsay and Jones suck.



Honestly, I thought Sox fans were better than this.

Not saying Thome is the greatest thing out there, but he sure looks like a good piece of steak right now compared to the crappy gound beef we are going to get served this year.

doublem23
01-26-2010, 05:49 PM
Look at the Twins lineup and tell me, outside of Morneau and Mauer, are you really that concerned? Then look at their pitching rotation, are you ****ing kidding me?

Then again it's the Twins and they're always there.

A lot of things can look great or dismal when you merely look at what's on paper. Wait until the season. This team could actually wind up meshing well together and do something special that we haven't seen for just over 4 years.

The Twins actually have intelligent coaches. We have this idiot.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/greg_walker_autograph.jpg
YOU CAN'T GET ON BASE IF YOU DON'T SWING THE BAT, ALEXEI. I DON'T CARE IF THAT PITCH BOUNCED IN, SWING FROM THE HEELS!!!

SoxNation05
01-26-2010, 05:50 PM
Look at the Twins lineup and tell me, outside of Morneau and Mauer, are you really that concerned? Then look at their pitching rotation, are you ****ing kidding me?

Then again it's the Twins and they're always there.

A lot of things can look great or dismal when you merely look at what's on paper. Wait until the season. This team could actually wind up meshing well together and do something special that we haven't seen for just over 4 years.
So you must really want a first round ass whoopin'.

russ99
01-26-2010, 05:50 PM
That's one heck of a pessamistic approach: Here's my glass a bit more than half full one...


Juan Pierre - 2nd in SB the last 5 years - puts the ball in play, doesn't K. Gives us a real lead-off man like Pods in 2005/2009, but with better numbers
Alex Rios - Has great tools, could thrive in the 2 hole where there's less pressure and he can excel at getting on base, stealing bases, and moving up runners.
Gordon Beckham - Could have a Longoria-like breakout this year
Carlos Quentin - Is healthy, could better his 2007 numbers
Paul Konerko - Nice pop, underrated D. Hoping for an above-average year with less bad streaks.
Mark Teahen - Good doubles hitter, is the key bat to remove the leave lots of guys on base problem. In his prime, can match or exceed his 2006 numbers.
AJ Pierzynski - As always we'll get a good offensive year from A.J.
DH Platoon - Kotsay could hit close to .300 vs. lefties and Jones can hit 30 HRs vs righties. Not a bad balance, with others added at times.
Alexei Ramirez - Could be a real weapon at the bottom of the order, a second lead-off guy with less plate patience. Could reach Uribe-like power numbers in his 3rd year

DirtySox
01-26-2010, 05:50 PM
Look at the Twins lineup and tell me, outside of Morneau and Mauer, are you really that concerned? Then look at their pitching rotation, are you ****ing kidding me?


The rotation isn't that bad. I'm also afraid of Span, Kubel, and Cuddyer.

LoveYourSuit
01-26-2010, 05:51 PM
Look at the Twins lineup and tell me, outside of Morneau and Mauer, are you really that concerned? Then look at their pitching rotation, are you ****ing kidding me?

Then again it's the Twins and they're always there.

A lot of things can look great or dismal when you merely look at what's on paper. Wait until the season. This team could actually wind up meshing well together and do something special that we haven't seen for just over 4 years.



Morneau, Mauer, Cuddyear (sp?), Kubel.

All 4 guys are head shoulders above anything we have in the middle of our order.

doublem23
01-26-2010, 05:52 PM
Look at the Twins lineup and tell me, outside of Morneau and Mauer, are you really that concerned? Then look at their pitching rotation, are you ****ing kidding me?

Then again it's the Twins and they're always there.

A lot of things can look great or dismal when you merely look at what's on paper. Wait until the season. This team could actually wind up meshing well together and do something special that we haven't seen for just over 4 years.

I've tried to be patient with all of Ozzie's little experiments (Wise leading off, Erstad & Mackowiak everyday, Fields @ 3B everyday... come on) but this is beyond ridiculous. There is a glaring hole in our lineup and I cannot believe anyone who has watched baseball since the 1970s doesn't see it.

I'll give 2010 to Ozzie. He's earned my trust, he's won a World Series, bla bla bla. Fine. Prove me wrong, Ozzie, otherwise I want blood.

getonbckthr
01-26-2010, 05:52 PM
That certainly explains why he sucked ass with the Marlins in 2005, the Cubs in 2006, and the Dodgers for all of 2007 and the pre-Manny days in 2008.
The only bad season he has had was 2005 and that wasn't horrible. His defense is above average. His arm is average at best but being in LF will somewhat negate it.

SoxNation05
01-26-2010, 05:53 PM
The rotation isn't that bad. I'm also afraid of Span, Kubel, and Cuddyer.

If Quentin plays like 2009 Quentin, Kubel will have more production than anyone on this team.

getonbckthr
01-26-2010, 05:54 PM
The rotation isn't that bad. I'm also afraid of Span, Kubel, and Cuddyer.

Morneau, Mauer, Cuddyear (sp?), Kubel.

All 4 guys are head shoulders above anything we have in the middle of our order.
Nobody has a clue how their game will transfer to the new place. they may be better, same or worse.

SoxNation05
01-26-2010, 05:54 PM
I've tried to be patient with all of Ozzie's little experiments (Wise leading off, come on) but this is beyond ridiculous. There is a glaring hole in our lineup and I cannot believe anyone who has watched baseball since the 1970s doesn't see it.

I'll give 2010 to Ozzie. He's earned my trust, he's won a World Series, bla bla bla. Fine. Prove me wrong, Ozzie, otherwise I want blood.

I cannot believe a mod is actually pissed and is posting the truth.

DirtySox
01-26-2010, 05:55 PM
Nobody has a clue how their game will transfer to the new place. they may be better, same or worse.

From everything I've heard, it's a hitters park. They certainly have hitting.

getonbckthr
01-26-2010, 05:56 PM
If Quentin plays like 2009 Quentin, Kubel will have more production than anyone on this team.
If what they say about the new stadium is true Kubel might be an MVP canidate. Supposedly its a lefty pull hitter dream, which he is. He may hit 37-40 homers this year.

doublem23
01-26-2010, 05:56 PM
Nobody has a clue how their game will transfer to the new place. they may be better, same or worse.

Mauer, Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel, and even Span aren't little rope-a-dope, dinky hitters like Lew Ford, Carlos Gomez, or that ******* SS they have. Those guys are legit big league hitters who will hit anywhere. Yeah, maybe the Twins won't be able to piranha you to death any more, but right now they've got way more muscle than we do.

getonbckthr
01-26-2010, 05:57 PM
From everything I've heard, it's a hitters park. They certainly have hitting.
I think Kubel will benefit, Span and cuddyer I feel will regress.

LoveYourSuit
01-26-2010, 05:58 PM
I don't know how JR and KW would allow Ozzie to call shots like this. This is one of the most idiotic proposals I have seen, this of the DH position. Very comparable to Lovie and the whole WR situation with the Bears and screwing Hester's career.

Daver
01-26-2010, 05:59 PM
I cannot believe a mod is actually pissed and is posting the truth.

Why?

Thatguyoverthere
01-26-2010, 06:00 PM
Minnesota's lineup is good enough that if we had it, we'd easily be favorites to win it all this year.

getonbckthr
01-26-2010, 06:01 PM
I don't know how JR and KW would allow Ozzie to call shots like this. This is one of the most idiotic proposals I have seen, this of the DH position. Very comparable to Lovie and the whole WR situation with the Bears and screwing Hester's career.
Simple, Ozzie makes the lineups. If Ozzie is dead set on a rotating DH where Thome would only play 1-2 games a week he has no value to our team based on money and a roster spot.

LoveYourSuit
01-26-2010, 06:01 PM
I cannot believe a mod is actually pissed and is posting the truth.


It's great to see.

But it's a no brainer. This DH situation/proposal is perhaps one of the dumbest moves I have seen from any of our local coaches in this town. And there is a list of very dumb people running our pro ball clubs in this town's history. Ozzie has some stones, God Bless him. He is playing with fire here.

getonbckthr
01-26-2010, 06:02 PM
Minnesota's lineup is good enough that if we had it, we'd easily be favorites to win it all this year.
Combined with our staff, absolutely. However besides Nathan nothing about the other 11 pitchers scare me.

getonbckthr
01-26-2010, 06:04 PM
It's great to see.

But it's a no brainer. This DH situation/proposal is perhaps one of the dumbest moves I have seen from any of our local coaches in this town. And there is a list of very dumb people running our pro ball clubs in this town's history. Ozzie has some stones, God Bless him. He is playing with fire here.
Some say we played with fire in 05 and that worked fine. Paper wise the 05 roster may have been the worst of the opening day rosters n the past 5 seasons, ironically that was our best year.

doublem23
01-26-2010, 06:06 PM
I don't know how JR and KW would allow Ozzie to call shots like this. This is one of the most idiotic proposals I have seen, this of the DH position. Very comparable to Lovie and the whole WR situation with the Bears and screwing Hester's career.

I understand Ozzie and KW and, to a degree, JR are all on the same page and I like that they all respect each other (much better than they all being at each others' throats), and I'm willing to give Ozzie the benefit of the doubt and let's see how this strategy works, but if the Sox don't win their division because their offense would be bad by NL standards, then he better be fired the night they get eliminated from the postseason.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:08 PM
:darkclouds:
Guys lets relax here. What is Thome gonna do? Hit 25-26 hrs with a .249 average? Give Jayson Nix 500 AB's and he'll get ya the same thing (based on his 1 full season).
*pokes self in eye*

Ever hear of OBP?

It's like if that worldly, omnipotent baseball man himself Hawk Harrelson makes a declaration, surely it must be true!

Jones and Kotsay will be an embarrassment. Anyone who bemoans Thome's health should probably check Kotsay's injury history.

HomeFish
01-26-2010, 06:08 PM
OH NOES, the Twins now have an aging slugger who can no longer run or play the field. Whatever shall we do.

TDog
01-26-2010, 06:08 PM
Well. He will have at least 50 RBIs against us. Yippee!

He probably won't start against Buehrle or Danks. when he comes in late to pinch hit, I hope Thornton is ready for him. Even if he does, I would rather face Thome at DH than Mauer on a day off from catching or any of the other left-handed hitters the Twins use at DH.

I don't know how small the Twins' new ballpark will play, but Thome was hitting a lot of his home runs last year to right and right center. There is the infield shift that hurts his batting average, but when he hits fly balls, he is hardly a dead-pull hitter.

I really don't believe signing someone who can only come off the bench to hit improves the Twins much.

DirtySox
01-26-2010, 06:09 PM
OH NOES, the Twins now have an aging slugger who can no longer run or play the field. Whatever shall we do.

Yes. That's certainly what the discussion is about.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:09 PM
He probably won't start against Buehrle or Danks. when he comes in late to pinch hit, I hope Thornton is ready for him. Even if he does, I would rather face Thome at DH than Mauer on a day off from catching or any of the other left-handed hitters the Twins use at DH.

I don't know how small the Twins' new ballpark will play, but Thome was hitting a lot of his home runs last year to right and right center. There is the infield shift that hurts his batting average, but when he hits fly balls, he is hardly a dead-pull hitter.

I really don't believe signing someone who can only come off the bench to hit improves the Twins much.
Well, I think it gives them options, should Young continue to be abysmal. It also keeps the White Sox from improving themselves.

doublem23
01-26-2010, 06:09 PM
OH NOES, the Twins now have an aging slugger who can no longer run or play the field. Whatever shall we do.

Play Jones and Kotsay everyday! YEAH!

JB98
01-26-2010, 06:09 PM
I hope the Sox pitching is as good as advertised, because the offense is going to be short this year (barring an additional acquisition before the season starts).

asindc
01-26-2010, 06:10 PM
Thome is going to play if he hits, plain and simple. They will not put up with Delmon Young's crap production long. Kubel will just move to LF.

Then we'll have to worry about JT hitting us like in his CLE days, and Kubel hitting us like he does in every at bat.

Ozzie will respond by having Vizquel/Nix/Kotsay in the DH role batting 9th.

That will significantly worsen their OF defense. Not saying that you are incorrect, but that is not a move without risks.

doublem23
01-26-2010, 06:10 PM
That will significantly worsen their OF defense. Not saying that you are incorrect, but that is not a move without risks.

Nobody wins or loses championships based on the defensive prowess of their LF.

MarySwiss
01-26-2010, 06:11 PM
I'm trying to figure out which I hate worse, Twins or Vikings. :angry:

Jerko
01-26-2010, 06:11 PM
I like Jim's OBP but as stated earlier, it takes 3 hits to score the guy if he walks. Sorry, he's a nice guy, I hope he returns after his playing days, but I'm not ready to crown the Twins just yet. And who knows how that field is gonna play? Wind conditions, weather, etc, etc.

Tragg
01-26-2010, 06:11 PM
Damn, Double.
You sound like me talking about DeWayne Wise last year. LOL

Preach on!

GoGoCrede
01-26-2010, 06:11 PM
I'm trying to figure out which I hate worse, Twins or Vikings. :angry:

Why choose? There's enough hatred to go around. :cool:

doublem23
01-26-2010, 06:13 PM
I like Jim's OBP but as stated earlier, it takes 3 hits to score the guy if he walks. Sorry, he's a nice guy, I hope he returns after his playing days, but I'm not ready to crown the Twins just yet. And who knows how that field is gonna play? Wind conditions, weather, etc, etc.

Thank god we've got Andruw Jones, who never gets on base, to keep the basepaths clear.

DumpJerry
01-26-2010, 06:13 PM
My gut tells me that if there are any regrets come October, it's not that we did not sign Jim, but that we did not have a Full-time DH. In other words, I'm not sure how big a season Jim will have (to make us wish he he had put up the numbers with us instead), but what kind of production our DH position will produce.

The other feeling I've been getting over the past few days as the Thome stuff was playing out is that the Sox think Jordan Danks is more MLB ready than us fans realize.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:13 PM
For ****'s sake, I've never seen so much ambivalence over a ballclub based on a new field. Guess what? Mauer's still going to crank, Morneau will crank, Kubel will crank, their defense will be stellar and their bullpen solid. They are head and shoulders above us, as of January 26 (bolded for those who refuse to comment on the 2010 season until 2110).

asindc
01-26-2010, 06:14 PM
I would rather say that then what a Twin's fan would have to say: "So the Sox have 4 starting pitchers better than our ace?"

Thank you. Question for some: If you could have Adrian Gonzalez as our DH and put him in our current lineup, but have to accept last year's starting rotation as of Opening Day last year (as they were at the time), would you do it?

asindc
01-26-2010, 06:15 PM
It would be a lot nicer to just get someone now, so that we don't have to watch miserable baseball for months and ultimately blow the division by 5 games because we lost 10 games in April and May by a run.

Who and for what price?

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:15 PM
My gut tells me that if there are any regrets come October, it's not that we did not sign Jim, but that we did not have a Full-time DH. In other words, I'm not sure how big a season Jim will have (to make us wish he he had put up the numbers with us instead), but what kind of production our DH position will produce.

The other feeling I've been getting over the past few days as the Thome stuff was playing out is that the Sox think Jordan Danks is more MLB ready than us fans realize.
Which, even if that were the case -- and I'm almost certain the front office can't be that stupid -- adding Thome wouldn't preclude the White Sox from allowing Danks to come up in the summer. They could just cut the guy.

Anyone feeling great about paying Kotsay the same amount Jim Thome commanded?

doublem23
01-26-2010, 06:15 PM
Thank you. Question for some: If you could have Adrian Gonzalez as our DH and put him in our current lineup, but have to accept last year's starting rotation as of Opening Day last year (as they were at the time), would you do it?

No because even with Adrian Gonzalez, our offense is still subpar. Its just not HORRENDOUSLY TERRIBLE

Lundind1
01-26-2010, 06:16 PM
I'm sure that we could get Carl Everett from the Newark Bears for a steal.

DirtySox
01-26-2010, 06:16 PM
For ****'s sake, I've never seen so much ambivalence over a ballclub based on a new field. Guess what? Mauer's still going to crank, Morneau will crank, Kubel will crank, their defense will be stellar and their bullpen solid. They are head and shoulders above us, as of January 26 (bolded for those who refuse to comment on the 2010 season until 2110).

Yep. I have the terrible feeling that this team is going to be what last year's Giants were.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:16 PM
Thank you. Question for some: If you could have Adrian Gonzalez as our DH and put him in our current lineup, but have to accept last year's starting rotation as of Opening Day last year (as they were at the time), would you do it?
What is the relevance of this question?

I fail to see how having an actual DH is exclusive from having a solid 1-5 pitching staff.

DumpJerry
01-26-2010, 06:16 PM
Thank god we've got Andruw Jones, who never gets on base, to keep the basepaths clear.
Given how "inexpensive" (I would love for someone to give me half a million for six months' work!) Jones' contract is, I think the front office signed him figuring he could be a placeholder for Jordan Danks during the season. If Danks tears it up down there and Jones is, well, Jones, DFAing Jones won't cost a ton of money to bring up Danks.

doublem23
01-26-2010, 06:16 PM
Who and for what price?

I don't give a ****, trade everyone in the farm. I don't give a **** how the Barons or Knights do this year. Go for it. We have the best rotation in the American League. GO FOR IT!

Lundind1
01-26-2010, 06:17 PM
Anyone feeling great about paying Kotsay the same amount Jim Thome commanded?

Feelin kinda sick to the old stomach now.

doublem23
01-26-2010, 06:17 PM
Given how "inexpensive" (I would love for someone to give me half a million for six months' work!) Jones' contract is, I think the front office signed him figuring he could be a placeholder for Jordan Danks during the season. If Danks tears it up down there and Jones is, well, Jones, DFAing Jones won't cost a ton of money to bring up Danks.

If Jordan Danks spends a second on the roster before September, you should call your ticket rep and ask for a refund.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:18 PM
If Jordan Danks spends a second on the roster before September, you should call your ticket rep and ask for a refund.
Truth. Danks may be good someday, but he's got a ton of work to do.

KW could remedy a lot of this by signing Orlando Hudson, but I just don't see that happening.

DumpJerry
01-26-2010, 06:18 PM
Which, even if that were the case -- and I'm almost certain the front office can't be that stupid -- adding Thome wouldn't preclude the White Sox from allowing Danks to come up in the summer. They could just cut the guy.
That is more expensive than cutting Andruw Jones for Danks.

Lundind1
01-26-2010, 06:18 PM
Given how "inexpensive" (I would love for someone to give me half a million for six months' work!) Jones' contract is, I think the front office signed him figuring he could be a placeholder for Jordan Danks during the season. If Danks tears it up down there and Jones is, well, Jones, DFAing Jones won't cost a ton of money to bring up Danks.

Isn't there something going on with Jordan's contract still or were they able to finally get him to sign something for the first time in 6 years?

DirtySox
01-26-2010, 06:19 PM
Isn't there something going on with Jordan's contract still or were they able to finally get him to sign something for the first time in 6 years?

Huh?

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:20 PM
That is more expensive than cutting Andruw Jones for Danks.
Well Jerry can solicit donations, then, so he can field an actual ballclub. I pledge $8.

doublem23
01-26-2010, 06:21 PM
That is more expensive than cutting Andruw Jones for Danks.

Yes, but there's also a chance Thome will be an OK player, whereas Andruw Jones is terrible at baseball.

DumpJerry
01-26-2010, 06:21 PM
Isn't there something going on with Jordan's contract still or were they able to finally get him to sign something for the first time in 6 years?
:scratch:He was drafted in 2008. Did I fall asleep and wake up in 2014?

asindc
01-26-2010, 06:22 PM
Minnesota's lineup is good enough that if we had it, we'd easily be favorites to win it all this year.

I imagine that many Twinkee fans are saying the same thing about our starting rotation.

DumpJerry
01-26-2010, 06:22 PM
Yes, but there's also a chance Thome will be an OK player, whereas Andruw Jones is terrible at baseball.
Wasn't Josh Fields an Oklahoma player?:tongue:

Had to throw some levity into the discussion......

DumpJerry
01-26-2010, 06:23 PM
I imagine that many Twinkee fans are saying the same thing about our starting rotation.
Bingo.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:25 PM
I will go on record right now that I would not be surprised if the Twins post a lower team ERA than the White Sox. And I will bet anyone here that the Sox, should they stand pat, will not come within 40 runs of the Twins.

Oh, the wonders of defense!

asindc
01-26-2010, 06:25 PM
Nobody wins or loses championships based on the defensive prowess of their LF.

What has all this carping and caterwauling about Pierre's weak arm been about then?

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:26 PM
What has all this carping and caterwauling about Pierre's weak arm been about then?
People overlooking his glaring offensive deficiencies? I don't know. Nor do I care.

asindc
01-26-2010, 06:29 PM
What is the relevance of this question?

I fail to see how having an actual DH is exclusive from having a solid 1-5 pitching staff.

I'm trying to gauge just how much some here want KW to spend to get the kind of DH that would make the offense less than "horrendously bad" and at least "subpar."

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:30 PM
I'm trying to gauge just how much some here want KW to spend to get the kind of DH that would make the offense less than "horrendously bad" and at least "subpar."
Enough to be in contention? I don't pay the bills, at some point J.R. is going to have to pony up if he wants this team to contend.

Actually, I'd have been alright with $1.5 million. I'd have even spent the money on Matsui and told Kotsay, Vizquel, and Jones to piss up a rope while using internal/NRI options to fill their roles.

Crying about not having enough money after spending so much money on the bench is, well, foolish, and indicative of poor planning.

asindc
01-26-2010, 06:30 PM
Truth. Danks may be good someday, but he's got a ton of work to do.

KW could remedy a lot of this by signing Orlando Hudson, but I just don't see that happening.

EDIT: Never mind. I re-read your post.

doublem23
01-26-2010, 06:32 PM
If Danks is not good now, which of the Twinkees starting pitchers is good?

Jordan Danks.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:32 PM
If Danks is not good now, which of the Twinkees starting pitchers is good?
I know you're fighting with about twenty people about the sheer stupidity of Ozzie Guillen right now, but you may want to go back and read what I actually said.

Jerko
01-26-2010, 06:32 PM
Thank god we've got Andruw Jones, who never gets on base, to keep the basepaths clear.

I didnt say anything about Andrew Jones but I refuse to whine like we lost 1998 Jim Thome. This talk of bringing him back was a joke IMO. I wont miss seeing him striking out or hitting directly into the shift 70 percent of the time, sorry. i dont like the DH by committee but it's not the end of the world here.

Lundind1
01-26-2010, 06:33 PM
:scratch:He was drafted in 2008. Did I fall asleep and wake up in 2014?

He was drafted originally by the Sox, opted not to sign, went to college, and got drafted again by the Sox in 08. Last I had heard was they were still talking longer term contract with Jordan.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:35 PM
I didnt say anything about Andrew Jones but I refuse to whine like we lost 1998 Jim Thome. This talk of bringing him back was a joke IMO. I wont miss seeing him striking out or hitting directly into the shift 70 percent of the time, sorry. i dont like the DH by committee but it's not the end of the world here.
So in other words, you didn't like option A, even though it means we will probably have to deal with option B, even though it's indisputable that A will outperform B.

Gotcha.

Domeshot17
01-26-2010, 06:35 PM
The fact we are a coinflip to compete against the twins shows you how far we really are from competing against the Yankees and Red Sox.

Oh, and don't compare Beckham to Longoria, I love Gordon, he isn't on that level. Longoria is going to be one of the 3-5 best hitters in all of baseball for a very very long time if he already isn't. Longoria is a tremendous defensive player.

Beckham's rookie year- 103 games 378 ABs 28 doubles 14 homers 63 RBI (slugged 460)
Longoria's rookie year- 113 games 448 ABs 31 doubles 27 homers 86 RBI
(slugged 531)

Beckham's rookie year 500 AB translation- 37 doubles 18.5 (I'll round up to 19) Homers 84 RBI

Longoria stays about the same, tack on a few more doubles and homers and rbis. Comes about 34 doubles 30 homers 99 RBI

Longoria hit 44 doubles 33 homers 113 RBI last year. Beckham has not shown that kind of power at all. I would be thrilled with Gordon at 40 doubles 20 homer 90 RBI, that is a very good season, but Longoria is perennial MVP candidate in the making. Beckham is the type that could make a few all star games. It isn't a knock to Gordon, but while I see him as a very good player, I don't see him on that elite, best of the best level.

The other thing that scares me is, (and I feel the same way about him as a I do Rios for us), The Twins may have added a guy just as good offensive as Beckham if he bounces back to his previous 2 year form in JJ Hardy. If Beckham gave us 280 30 doubles 25 homers 75 RBI with an 800 OPS, most would be pretty happy. I think Becks eventually will be a far better hitter than Hardy, but Hardy was a stud before struggling last year a lot like Rios for us. Both teams need those guys to turn it around.

asindc
01-26-2010, 06:35 PM
Enough to be in contention? I don't pay the bills, at some point J.R. is going to have to pony up if he wants this team to contend.

Actually, I'd have been alright with $1.5 million. I'd have even spent the money on Matsui and told Kotsay, Vizquel, and Jones to piss up a rope while using internal/NRI options to fill their roles.

Crying about not having enough money after spending so much money on the bench is, well, foolish, and indicative of poor planning.

Matsui was my first choice for DH, but I don't know if KW approached him or not.

Jerko
01-26-2010, 06:37 PM
So in other words, you didn't like option A, even though it means we will probably have to deal with option B, even though it's indisputable that A will outperform B.

Gotcha.

i dont think its indisputable.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:37 PM
i dont think its indisputable.
Well, then convince me how Jones and Kotsay will be on the same planet production wise as Jim Thome. I'm ready.

thomas35forever
01-26-2010, 06:39 PM
You just know this is gonna bite us right in the ass. I've been by Ozzie for a long time, but if the Twinkies win the division and our offense sucks ass, I will gladly call for his firing.:cuss:

asindc
01-26-2010, 06:40 PM
So in other words, you didn't like option A, even though it means we will probably have to deal with option B, even though it's indisputable that A will outperform B.

Gotcha.

That's just it, CG. It is not indisputable. I think you and some other are downplaying the chances that Thome will regress dramatically this year. At some point, all players fall off the table. It was posted in another thread that it is quite possible that the Sox trainers' evaluation of Thome's fitness weighed significantly into this decision. It is all speculation, of course, but it cannot be taken as a given that Thome will perform close to career norms this year. The guy could barely move half the time last season.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:40 PM
I'm willing to support this rotating DH system so long as the backers (Russ, jabrch, etc.) accept that Ozzie's job should be on the line. Lose the division with this rotation, and he should be gone. No questions asked.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:41 PM
That's just it, CG. It is not indisputable. I think you and some other are downplaying the chances that Thome will regress dramatically this year. At some point, all players fall off the table. It was posted in another thread that it is quite possible that the Sox trainers' evaluation of Thome's fitness weighed significantly into this decision. It is all speculation, of course, but it cannot be taken as a given that Thome will perform close to career norms this year. The guy could barely move half the time last season.
If the trainers have more confidence in Mark Kotsay remaining healthy than Jim Thome, I suggest they return to medical school.

Back problems aren't all the same, and Thome's back is in much better condition (as in: has not been operated on). This isn't a matter of health, it's a matter of intelligence. Ozzie lacks the latter.

Daver
01-26-2010, 06:42 PM
He was drafted originally by the Sox, opted not to sign, went to college, and got drafted again by the Sox in 08. Last I had heard was they were still talking longer term contract with Jordan.

Why in the hell would the Sox be looking to sign a player they control for at least another six years to any kind of contract?

thedudeabides
01-26-2010, 06:42 PM
Enough to be in contention? I don't pay the bills, at some point J.R. is going to have to pony up if he wants this team to contend.

Actually, I'd have been alright with $1.5 million. I'd have even spent the money on Matsui and told Kotsay, Vizquel, and Jones to piss up a rope while using internal/NRI options to fill their roles.

Crying about not having enough money after spending so much money on the bench is, well, foolish, and indicative of poor planning.

Matsui had said he would play for the Yankees or on the west coast. You can't make players play here.

Also, J.R. has said the money is there for the right player. He proved that last year.

getonbckthr
01-26-2010, 06:42 PM
To be perfect honest I would rather we kept Fields and Getz opposed to the money we blew on Teahen. The money we would have saved from having Getz/Fields/Nix opposed to Teahen/Vizquel would have allowed us to sign a legitimate DH without questions.

Domeshot17
01-26-2010, 06:43 PM
I'm willing to support this rotating DH system so long as the backers (Russ, jabrch, etc.) accept that Ozzie's job should be on the line. Lose the division with this rotation, and he should be gone. No questions asked.

Ozzie isn't even confident enough to say his job should be on the line over it. Just like it wasn't on the line over Mackowiak, and Erstad and Colon etc.

getonbckthr
01-26-2010, 06:44 PM
I'm curious as to the progress of Viciedo. Also is there a chance that Mitchell could be like Beckham?

thedudeabides
01-26-2010, 06:44 PM
If the trainers have more confidence in Mark Kotsay remaining healthy than Jim Thome, I suggest they return to medical school.

Back problems aren't all the same, and Thome's back is in much better condition (as in: has not been operated on). This isn't a matter of health, it's a matter of intelligence. Ozzie lacks the latter.

:rolleyes: The Sox have one of the best training staffs in baseball.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:46 PM
:rolleyes: The Sox have one of the best training staffs in baseball.
Duh. And because they're so good, I highly doubt they'd blow the whistle on $1.5 million spent on Thome to swing the bat vs. $1.5 million spent on Kotsay to swing and field.

asindc
01-26-2010, 06:46 PM
If the trainers have more confidence in Mark Kotsay remaining healthy than Jim Thome, I suggest they return to medical school.

Back problems aren't all the same, and Thome's back is in much better condition (as in: has not been operated on). This isn't a matter of health, it's a matter of intelligence. Ozzie lacks the latter.

Since neither one of us is a trainer, we can't take that as a given, either, despite the fact that Thome's back has not been operated on. It is not just about his back, I'm talking about his overall fitness. I don't know if it a matter of health or not, just speculating as I said before, but it is not implausible that the Sox don't think Thome will be able to stay fit enough to make an impact with this ballclub.

Lundind1
01-26-2010, 06:46 PM
Why in the hell would the Sox be looking to sign a player they control for at least another six years to any kind of contract?

Well, having worked in minor league baseball, the parent club often signs the elite prospects to contracts. That is the first step to adding them to the 40 man roster.

If Jordan shows a good spring training effort, then it would not be out of the question that he gets signed to this kind of contract for his rights, quite possibly added to the 40 man, and we would see him in September.

Domeshot17
01-26-2010, 06:46 PM
I'm curious as to the progress of Viciedo. Also is there a chance that Mitchell could be like Beckham?

Dayan SLUGGED .391 in Double A, he isn't ready.

Mitchell has just started the long road of tearing his swing down to learn to use his tools properly. He has was and will be a long term project.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:46 PM
I'm curious as to the progress of Viciedo. Also is there a chance that Mitchell could be like Beckham?
Look up Viciedo's progression. Encouraging, but nowhere near ready.

And a NO! to Mitchell.

Lundind1
01-26-2010, 06:47 PM
Ozzie isn't even confident enough to say his job should be on the line over it. Just like it wasn't on the line over Mackowiak, and Erstad and Colon etc.

Those were not made as clear that they were his choice for players, Thome was.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:47 PM
Since neither one of us is a trainer, we can't take that as a given, either, despite the fact that Thome's back has not been operated on. It is not just about his back, I'm talking about his overall fitness. I don't know if it a matter of health or not, just speculating as I said before, but it is not implausible that the Sox don't think Thome will be able to stay fit enough to make an impact with this ballclub.
And your speculation is, well, lacking a certain amount of logic. If they're content spending $1.5 million on Kotsay, despite his awful injury history, they are certainly open to adding a player with Thome's injury profile.

It's about Ozzie. I think that's abundantly clear, and KW has said as much.

thedudeabides
01-26-2010, 06:48 PM
Duh. And because they're so good, I highly doubt they'd blow the whistle on $1.5 million spent on Thome to swing the bat vs. $1.5 million spent on Kotsay to swing and field.

Duh. Really?

They would if they feel one can stay healthy and one can't. I will put my trust in them they know better than you or I.

Over By There
01-26-2010, 06:48 PM
This thread reminds me in a lot of ways of the Miguel Cabrera trade thread a couple years ago. A division rival acquires a slugger and WSI loses it's ****, proclaiming that the other team is unquestionably better than the Sox, months before the season.

The only thing "indisputable" is that if this player was named anything but "Jim Thome" there would be a lot fewer crocodile tears around here. I'm not a huge fan of the DH by committee approach either, but for everyone to jump off a bridge because we didn't sign the 2010 version of Jim Thome is kind of embarrassing. Not surprising, but embarrassing.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:49 PM
Duh. Really?

They would if they feel one can stay healthy and one can't. I will put my trust in them they know better than you or I.
For ****'s sake, I'm not arguing that the training staff is somehow less knowledgeable than I am. I'm saying that there's no reason to think they blew the whistle on Thome's health and okay'd Kotsay. That flies in the face of all evidence and logic.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:49 PM
This thread reminds me in a lot of ways of the Miguel Cabrera trade thread a couple years ago. A division rival acquires a slugger and WSI loses it's ****, proclaiming that the other team is unquestionably better than the Sox, months before the season.

The only thing "indisputable" is that if this player was named anything but "Jim Thome" there would be a lot fewer crocodile tears around here. I'm not a huge fan of the DH by committee approach either, but for everyone to jump off a bridge because we didn't sign the 2010 version of Jim Thome is kind of embarrassing. Not surprising, but embarrassing.
You should probably examine the context of people's complaints, rather than analyzing in isolation. It can be enlightening.

thedudeabides
01-26-2010, 06:51 PM
For ****'s sake, I'm not arguing that the training staff is somehow less knowledgeable than I am. I'm saying that there's no reason to think they blew the whistle on Thome's health and okay'd Kotsay. That flies in the face of all evidence and logic.

How does that fly in the face of logic? They think Kotsay can stay healthy and Thome cant.

Nevermind, you are arguing about 50 different points, and these threads are ridiculous.

Over By There
01-26-2010, 06:51 PM
You should probably examine the context of people's complaints, rather than analyzing in isolation. It can be enlightening.

I don't think I'm the one who needs to take a step back for "context."

getonbckthr
01-26-2010, 06:51 PM
And your speculation is, well, lacking a certain amount of logic. If they're content spending $1.5 million on Kotsay, despite his awful injury history, they are certainly open to adding a player with Thome's injury profile.

It's about Ozzie. I think that's abundantly clear, and KW has said as much.
I don't think Kotsay was brought back with intentions of him being a starter.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:51 PM
How does that fly in the face of logic? They think Kotsay can stay healthy and Thome cant.

Nevermind, you are arguing about 50 different points, and these threads are ridiculous.
No, I think it does. Does Kotsay's injury history make you confident he can stay healthy with a sizable amount of at-bats?

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:52 PM
I don't think I'm the one who needs to take a step back for "context."
If you think people are simply freaking out over the Twins adding just another slugger, you need to step back and look at our current DH situation.
I don't think Kotsay was brought back with intentions of him being a starter.
Well, them's the breaks. They're making him one by default.

DumpJerry
01-26-2010, 06:52 PM
I don't think Kotsay was brought back with intentions of him being a starter.
Kotsay is one of the best pinch hitters around. That is why he was brought here. I've also read that his clubhouse leadership works well with younger players.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:53 PM
Kotsay is one of the best pinch hitters around. That is why he was brought here. I've also read that his clubhouse leadership works well with younger players.
Starting him will really help utilize that strength.

Lundind1
01-26-2010, 06:54 PM
Kotsay is one of the best pinch hitters around. That is why he was brought here. I've also read that his clubhouse leadership works well with younger players.

I fear that they would try to make him a every day player. But then again, at least he can play in the field.

Jerko
01-26-2010, 06:54 PM
Well, then convince me how Jones and Kotsay will be on the same planet production wise as Jim Thome. I'm ready.

We'll have to wait and see. Thome's health is always an issue, he's a year older, and his numbers from last year are hardly lofty. I'm not saying Jones or Kotsay are better individually, but at the end of the season, I'd say that the DH spot can produce 55 runs scored and 77 rbi. Would I like a better dh? Sure I would, but the difference from last year's dh production to this years isn't going to be as vast as some people think IMO.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:55 PM
We'll have to wait and see. Thome's health is always an issue, he's a year older, and his numbers from last year are hardly lofty. I'm not saying Jones or Kotsay are better individually, but at the end of the season, I'd say that the DH spot can produce 55 runs scored and 77 rbi. Would I like a better dh? Sure I would, but the difference from last year's dh production to this years isn't going to be as vast as some people think IMO.
What about OBP? SLG?

thedudeabides
01-26-2010, 06:55 PM
No, I think it does. Does Kotsay's injury history make you confident he can stay healthy with a sizable amount of at-bats?


How would I know. If they seem to think so, I'm fine with it. There is little reason to question our training staff, but you seem to have the answers to everything so I'll just let you decide.

Also, I have no idea how many at bats they have in mind for him, and no matter how much you think you know, you don't either.

asindc
01-26-2010, 06:57 PM
And your speculation is, well, lacking a certain amount of logic. If they're content spending $1.5 million on Kotsay, despite his awful injury history, they are certainly open to adding a player with Thome's injury profile.

It's about Ozzie. I think that's abundantly clear, and KW has said as much.

It is not just about injury history, it is about each player's fitness to perform the role envisioned. We don't know what the trainers' evaluation of Kotsay and Thome is at the present, but that certainly factors into the analysis. In other words, it is not simply about what has happened in the past, it is about what is the case now and what is likely to be in the future.

One of the reasons why I had been lukewarm about Thome's return all along is that I really wonder if he will be able to provide enough ABs to make a difference, even if he performs close to career norms. You think that he could have, so we disagree about that. Both of us are speculating, however. I do know this: Thome will be platooning in a strictly DH situation with 3, maybe 4, other LH hitters and at least 1 RH hitter. Therefore, I don't know how much impact he will have with the Twinkees.

aryzner
01-26-2010, 06:59 PM
Just got home only to find this out.

Ugh. He's going to look bad in a Twins uniform just like Crede did. :\

Best of luck to him, though - except against the Sox.

thomas35forever
01-26-2010, 07:01 PM
KW could remedy a lot of this by signing Orlando Hudson, but I just don't see that happening.
:hawk
"Where's he gonna play?"

Over By There
01-26-2010, 07:07 PM
If you think people are simply freaking out over the Twins adding just another slugger, you need to step back and look at our current DH situation.

Sometimes you need to go back and read posts, too, you know. I acknowledged that the Sox have a problem at DH. I understand there is frustration related to that. My point is that people are freaking out in large part because the player in question is Jim Thome. That is who we're discussing in this thread, yes? And while Jim Thome is not the ingredient that is going to push the White Sox to the World Series, some (including yourself) have chosen this occasion to declare the Twins a superior team to the Sox. It's an overreaction to this discrete event, just like the Cabrera trade, plain and simple.

JermaineDye05
01-26-2010, 07:08 PM
Some people need to get their heads out of their asses and realize that Jim Thome is a bench player in this stage of his career. Him signing with the Twins and not with us has little effect with what will or would have happened this year.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 07:08 PM
How would I know. If they seem to think so, I'm fine with it. There is little reason to question our training staff, but you seem to have the answers to everything so I'll just let you decide.

Also, I have no idea how many at bats they have in mind for him, and no matter how much you think you know, you don't either.
1. There is little reason to speculate that the training staff had concerns over Thome's health without cross-checking such a thought with the signing of Kotsay (for $1.5 million, mind you). It doesn't add up.
2. I have a good idea of how many they have envisioned for him, given the roster's current construction. I admit that I don't know, but I'd say it's more than 250.

It is not just about injury history, it is about each player's fitness to perform the role envisioned. We don't know what the trainers' evaluation of Kotsay and Thome is at the present, but that certainly factors into the analysis. In other words, it is not simply about what has happened in the past, it is about what is the case now and what is likely to be in the future.

One of the reasons why I had been lukewarm about Thome's return all along is that I really wonder if he will be able to provide enough ABs to make a difference, even if he performs close to career norms. You think that he could have, so we disagree about that. Both of us are speculating, however. I do know this: Thome will be platooning in a strictly DH situation with 3, maybe 4, other LH hitters and at least 1 RH hitter. Therefore, I don't know how much impact he will have with the Twinkees.
1. Since we don't know what the trainers thought of Thome, why speculate that that was why he wasn't signed, especially when one considers all the evidence that points to Ozzie's obstinacy?
2. You don't know if Thome can provide enough ABs? Because of injuries or Ozzie? Contrary to Ozzie's statements, he does actually fill out the lineup card.

And t35, Hudson can play all over the infield and DH on off-days. He's a guy I'd be willing to actually give 500 AB to. The three-headed monster of Jones-Kotsay-Vizquel shouldn't be allowed anywhere near that number.

Jerko
01-26-2010, 07:10 PM
What about OBP? SLG?

What about striking out 33% of the time, refusing to try to advance a runner, even with that shift on, or not being able to score from 2nd on a hit? That stuff adds up too. I'm not happy with the current DH rotation, but I was frustrated as hell with Thome last year and i dont think its going to be that big of a dropoff, if any

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 07:10 PM
Sometimes you need to go back and read posts, too, you know. I acknowledged that the Sox have a problem at DH. I understand there is frustration related to that. My point is that people are freaking out in large part because the player in question is Jim Thome. That is who we're discussing in this thread, yes? And while Jim Thome is not the ingredient that is going to push the White Sox to the World Series, some (including yourself) have chosen this occasion to declare the Twins a superior team to the Sox. It's an overreaction to this discrete event, just like the Cabrera trade, plain and simple.
No, not really. This isn't a discrete event. This is a cheap option being taken off the market. This is indicative of how terribly the Sox overpaid for Mark Kotsay. This is indicative of their current plan to roll with an NL style of play in the American League.

Color me bothered.

Some people need to get their heads out of their asses and realize that Jim Thome is a bench player in this stage of his career. Him signing with the Twins and not with us has little effect with what will or would have happened this year.
You really wouldn't take his production at DH? If Jim Thome is solely a bench player, pray tell, what does that make Jones/Kotsay/Vizquel?

I'll say NRI.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 07:11 PM
What about striking out 33% of the time, refusing to try to advance a runner, even with that shift on, or not being able to score from 2nd on a hit? That stuff adds up too. I'm not happy with the current DH rotation, but I was frustrated as hell with Thome last year and i dont think its going to be that big of a dropoff, if any
Jim Thome wasn't paid to do any of those things well. He was paid to hit the **** out of the ball and reach base. He did that.

Complaining about Thome's inability to handle the bat is like complaining about your garbage man's inability to help you with your taxes.

And if you were sick of Thome's lack of bat-handling skills, just wait until you see Andruw Jones.

asindc
01-26-2010, 07:12 PM
1. There is little reason to speculate that the training staff had concerns over Thome's health without cross-checking such a thought with the signing of Kotsay (for $1.5 million, mind you). It doesn't add up.
2. I have a good idea of how many they have envisioned for him, given the roster's current construction. I admit that I don't know, but I'd say it's more than 250.


1. Since we don't know what the trainers thought of Thome, why speculate that that was why he wasn't signed, especially when one considers all the evidence that points to Ozzie's obstinacy?
2. You don't know if Thome can provide enough ABs? Because of injuries or Ozzie? Contrary to Ozzie's statements, he does actually fill out the lineup card.

And t35, Hudson can play all over the infield and DH on off-days. He's a guy I'd be willing to actually give 500 AB to. The three-headed monster of Jones-Kotsay-Vizquel shouldn't be allowed anywhere near that number.

For the same reason you are speculating that Thome is more fit than Kotsay and therefore worth spending more money on than Kotsay.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 07:13 PM
For the same reason you are speculating that Thome is more fit than Kotsay and therefore worth spending more money on than Kotsay.
I am just going off of each man's injury history, and the severity of each. If you think there's a snowball's chance in hell that Kotsay's back looks cleaner than Thome's, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

JermaineDye05
01-26-2010, 07:14 PM
No, not really. This isn't a discrete event. This is a cheap option being taken off the market. This is indicative of how terribly the Sox overpaid for Mark Kotsay. This is indicative of their current plan to roll with an NL style of play in the American League.

Color me bothered.


You really wouldn't take his production at DH? If Jim Thome is solely a bench player, pray tell, what does that make Jones/Kotsay/Vizquel?

I'll say NRI.

Jones/Kotsay/Vizquel are in the same boat. Neither of them should be an everyday player and I don't expect them to be.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 07:15 PM
Jones/Kotsay/Vizquel are in the same boat. Neither of them should be an everyday player and I don't expect them to be.
Then what do you expect? They're going to combine to make an everyday player.

Someone's got to DH, unless Ozzie plans on batting the pitcher.

Daver
01-26-2010, 07:18 PM
Someone's got to DH, unless Ozzie plans on batting the pitcher.

Might be a better option in the long run.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 07:19 PM
Might be a better option in the long run.
Too bad Garland was signed today.

SOXfnNlansing
01-26-2010, 07:23 PM
wow, I actually sat here and read all 176 previous posts! We all loved Jimmy. He was going to probably play here in 2010, hit .256 with 17 hrs and drive in 51 runs in a limited role. Not the end of the world not having that guy.

Opening day is in 10 weeks. Let's see who is signed, how spring training goes, then form an opinion about our DH situation.

asindc
01-26-2010, 07:26 PM
I am just going off of each man's injury history, and the severity of each. If you think there's a snowball's chance in hell that Kotsay's back looks cleaner than Thome's, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

Like I said, speculating. We both know this: Kotsay was fit enough to play in the OF at the end of last year, and also play 1B. We don't know if Thome was fit enough to do those things. Kotsay's ability to play multiple positions in one of the reason the Sox signed him, the same role he played in Boston. The announcement of the Twinkees' signing of Thome indicated that he would platoon in the DH role. Given all that, you might want to offer that bridge to one of the following: Terry Francona, Theo Epstein, and Bill Smith, unless you think someone being fit enough to DH part time is the equivalent of being fit enough to play multiple field positions along with batting in the same game.

Lip Man 1
01-26-2010, 07:28 PM
I tend to think this will turn out like the Joe Crede signing. He'll produce some for a little while before getting hurt.

I don't think this signing will have the impact that so are thinking it will have.

Lip

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 07:28 PM
Like I said, speculating. We both know this: Kotsay was fit enough to play in the OF at the end of last year, and also play 1B. We don't know if Thome was fit enough to do those things. Kotsay's ability to play multiple positions in one of the reason the Sox signed him, the same role he played in Boston. The announcement of the Twinkees' signing of Thome indicated that he would platoon in the DH role. Given all that, you might want to offer that bridge to one of the following: Terry Francona, Theo Epstein, and Bill Smith, unless you think someone being fit enough to DH part time is the equivalent of being fit enough to play multiple field positions along with batting in the same game.
Yes, Kotsay was fit enough to appear in 40 games last season. Something tells me that's not a good indication of his health.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 07:28 PM
I tend to think this will turn out like the Joe Crede signing. He'll produce some for a little while before getting hurt.

I don't think this signing will have the impact that so are thinking it will have.

Lip
It's not the Twins' adding of Jimbo, it's our utter and complete lack of appreciation for offense.

thedudeabides
01-26-2010, 07:35 PM
wow, I actually sat here and read all 176 previous posts! We all loved Jimmy. He was going to probably play here in 2010, hit .256 with 17 hrs and drive in 51 runs in a limited role. Not the end of the world not having that guy.

Opening day is in 10 weeks. Let's see who is signed, how spring training goes, then form an opinion about our DH situation.

That would be the logical thing to do, but emotions are running pretty high in this thread. I guess I'll just come back some other time to discuss it when people have calmed down because this is going nowhere.

gobears1987
01-26-2010, 07:35 PM
Is anyone seriously scared of Jim Thome's bat? I think Kubel is far better and if Thome takes away Kubel ABs, then GOOD! I love Thome, but his best days are long behind him.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 07:37 PM
Is anyone seriously scared of Jim Thome's bat? I think Kubel is far better and if Thome takes away Kubel ABs, then GOOD! I love Thome, but his best days are long behind him.
Sadly, Ron Gardenhire knows what he's doing, and Thome will probably take away from Delmon Young -- who is terrible.

That would be the logical thing to do, but emotions are running pretty high in this thread. I guess I'll just come back some other time to discuss it when people have calmed down because this is going nowhere.
I swear this place would be desolate if some people had their way. Is there ever a time when fans shouldn't be sitting back and waiting?

october23sp
01-26-2010, 07:38 PM
Good thing I was never a HUGE fan of his.

Hitmen77
01-26-2010, 07:40 PM
Hypothetically lets say mid-May rolls around and Jones/Kotsay isn't the DH answer do you honestly believe Kenny, Jerry and Ozzie are gonna sit there and let them hold us back? At the deadline you figure A-Gonzalez will be available as will probably Dunn. Who knows pending on how the Brewers and Astros seasons go Fielder, Lee and Berkman may even be available. Ya it sucks seeing Thome with the Twins from a personal/fan point of view. From a pure baseball point of view its not as bad as everyone is making it to be.

I'd hate to think Ozzie and Kenny's plan for 2010 is to tread water until July 31 and then hope we can somehow pull of a trade for Dunn and Gonzalez.....because we all know those guys will just fall into our laps, nobody else is going to go after them and the Sox have the farm system depth to outbid other teams for them.

veeter
01-26-2010, 07:43 PM
I know, I just edited it. I knew there was somebody else on this team that sucks.Double, you are cracking me up. I'm telling you right now it's going to be o.k. Sox win the divison by five games.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 07:47 PM
Double, you are cracking me up. I'm telling you right now it's going to be o.k. Sox win the divison by five games.
Welp, can't argue with that.

veeter
01-26-2010, 07:49 PM
Welp, can't argue with that.No need to.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 07:49 PM
No need to.
Could you at least rationalize or explain such confidence?

Hitmen77
01-26-2010, 07:51 PM
Some people need to get their heads out of their asses and realize that Jim Thome is a bench player in this stage of his career. Him signing with the Twins and not with us has little effect with what will or would have happened this year.

It's not just about Thome. It's about passing on Thome and then presumably passing on anybody but bench players for DH. We'll see if KW makes another move, but they sure sound like they're going with Kotsay and Jones (and don't hide behind the tired old "don't believe anything Kenny says" line).

I love how some people act as if we have Jones, Vizquel, Kotsay at 1-9 throughout the lineup.

Um, not quite. It's the Sox taking what should be one of their strongest offensive positions (DH) and making it one of their weakest in the lineup. But if hyperbole helps you think you're winning this debate, then more power to you.

The Sox also have 3 aces (possibly 4). I find that much more valuable than one DH.

As much as I like Floyd and Danks, the Sox do NOT have four aces.

veeter
01-26-2010, 07:52 PM
Could you at least rationalize or explain such confidence?Because, I felt that way before the Twins signed Thome. And the signing doesn't change my mind.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 07:53 PM
Because, I felt that way before the Twins signed Thome. And the signing doesn't change my mind.
Yeah, yeah, I got the whole blind faith thing -- I meant a concrete, analytical explanation for why the White Sox are so obviously going to win the division with such ease.

Rdy2PlayBall
01-26-2010, 07:53 PM
Sunday Lineup:



Nix, LF
Bacon, 2B
Quentin, DH
Jones, RF
Rios, CF
Teahen, 3B
Kotsay, 1B
Vizquel, SS
Castro, C

/head asplodeI highly doubt Pierre will miss more than 3 games unless of injury. I know this was posted like 5 pages ago.. just searching. :P Part of having younger players is not having Sunday lineups like these. The only reason we did is BECAUSE of Thome, Konerko, and Dye. Now, all we have is Konerko, who will probably just be a DH on his days off. This DH rotation may be a good way to give our players days off while helping the defense, and not changing the offense.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 07:54 PM
I highly doubt Pierre will miss more than 3 games unless of injury. I know this was posted like 5 pages ago.. just searching. :P Part of having younger players is not having Sunday lineups like these. The only reason we did is BECAUSE of Thome, Konerko, and Dye. Now, all we have is Konerko, who will probably just be a DH on his days off. This DH rotation may be a good way to give our players days off while helping the defense, and not changing the offense.
In other words: it will be a good way to ensure that a subpar offense is always equally subpar! Yippeeeee!

We'll be consistent, at least.

thedudeabides
01-26-2010, 07:56 PM
Sadly, Ron Gardenhire knows what he's doing, and Thome will probably take away from Delmon Young -- who is terrible.


I swear this place would be desolate if some people had their way. Is there ever a time when fans shouldn't be sitting back and waiting?

I would have a rational discussion, but this isn't rational. It's incomplete information, and you are using a ton of assumptions to benefit your argument.

I'll discuss it with you some other time, down the road.

Right now, you are arguing with 20 different people about 10 different topics, and stomping around like a teenager who got his keys taken away.

veeter
01-26-2010, 08:00 PM
Yeah, yeah, I got the whole blind faith thing -- I meant a concrete, analytical explanation for why the White Sox are so obviously going to win the division with such ease.It's all blind faith. All predictions are guesses. And at this stage, saying Thome is going to do 'this or that', or that the Sox offense is going to suck, is just a guess. I know I'm not providing you with what you want, but I like the Sox roster.

asindc
01-26-2010, 08:03 PM
Sadly, Ron Gardenhire knows what he's doing, and Thome will probably take away from Delmon Young -- who is terrible.


I swear this place would be desolate if some people had their way. Is there ever a time when fans shouldn't be sitting back and waiting?

You do realize that Delmon Young played a majority of the games in LF for the Twinkees last year (98) when Kubel and Cuddyer were available to him? Kubel played 29 games in LF (30 in RF), while Cuddyer played 0 games in LF. By the way, Young DHed 8 games last year. Point is that even with superior hitters available, Gardenhire started Young in LF a majority of the time when either Cuddyer, Kubel, or Span (whichever one was not DHing or playing another position that day) was available.

1989
01-26-2010, 08:11 PM
So what DHs are still on the market? Johnny Damon? Jermaine Dye?

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 08:13 PM
It's all blind faith. All predictions are guesses. And at this stage, saying Thome is going to do 'this or that', or that the Sox offense is going to suck, is just a guess. I know I'm not providing you with what you want, but I like the Sox roster.
Well, then I only ask that you say why you like it, or what it is you like about it.

I would have a rational discussion, but this isn't rational. It's incomplete information, and you are using a ton of assumptions to benefit your argument.

I'll discuss it with you some other time, down the road.

Right now, you are arguing with 20 different people about 10 different topics, and stomping around like a teenager who got his keys taken away.
1. Are you not using assumptions to benefit your argument?
2. I know, I know, we can't talk until ST opens, and then Opening Day, and then the All-Star Break, and then the Trading Deadline, and then the Waiver deadline, and then October, and by that time we can't discuss anything until the offseason. What fun!
3. Sorry my style of debate doesn't suit you. I'm multi-tasking. It's enjoyable.
You do realize that Delmon Young played a majority of the games in LF for the Twinkees last year (98) when Kubel and Cuddyer were available to him? Kubel played 29 games in LF (30 in RF), while Cuddyer played 0 games in LF. By the way, Young DHed 8 games last year. Point is that even with superior hitters available, Gardenhire started Young in LF a majority of the time when either Cuddyer, Kubel, or Span (whichever one was not DHing or playing another position that day) was available.
Young has now sucked for three consecutive years. I'm guessing he'll be on a short leash.

soxinem1
01-26-2010, 08:18 PM
That will significantly worsen their OF defense. Not saying that you are incorrect, but that is not a move without risks.

1983 White Sox LF-Ron Kittle
1993 White Sox LF-Tim Raines
2000 White Sox LF-Carlos Lee
2005 White Sox LF-Scott Podsednik
2008 White Sox LF-Carlos Quentin

Kubel cannot be any worse in LF than the LF on any of these playoff teams. LF is where you hide your weakest OF defender.

beasly213
01-26-2010, 08:30 PM
Well.. I was wrong about the Twins not signing him. :redface:

Ah well, But I don't see why Thome wants to do this. He has to get to the park at least five hours early every day to prepare. I'm thinking that's going to get real old real quick for him if he's not an every day player.

Add in the fact he is an awful pinch hitter I really don't get this move by the twins or Thome.

Jim.. May you have as much success with the Twins as Joe Crede had.

JermaineDye05
01-26-2010, 08:34 PM
It's not just about Thome. It's about passing on Thome and then presumably passing on anybody but bench players for DH. We'll see if KW makes another move, but they sure sound like they're going with Kotsay and Jones (and don't hide behind the tired old "don't believe anything Kenny says" line).




As much as I like Floyd and Danks, the Sox do NOT have four aces.

Them passing on Thome doesn't mean they'll be passing on other potential possibilities for DH. It could easily just be that they didn't feel that Jim Thome was more than a bench player in this stage in his career and considering the bench was already full, signing him would have been pretty pointless.

I think of John Danks like I did Zack Greinke. Loads of potential just waiting to explode. John Danks is a #1 in the making, the question is just when it will happen. I believe Peter Gammons or someone else at ESPN said regarding Danks and Greinke, something along the lines of the only question mark with those two was which one of them would win a Cy Young first.

veeter
01-26-2010, 08:43 PM
Well, then I only ask that you say why you like it, or what it is you like about it. I love the pitching staff. I think Quentin is going to play more like the 2008 Quentin. I think Alex Rios is going to have a solid year. I think Beckham's numbers will only get better. I think they finally have guys that can lay down a bunt. It's a small item, but I've seen the Sox lose many games over the last ten years because they couldn't bunt. Pierre can't throw, but not many balls are going to hit the ground with He and Rios in center and left. AJ and Peavy's leadership is going to be huge. I'm hopeful that Kotsay and Jones can at least put the ball in play, and come up with a few big hits. The bullpen is improved. They have holes and weaknesses like all clubs. But I just feel they are easily the class of the division.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 08:55 PM
I think of John Danks like I did Zack Greinke. Loads of potential just waiting to explode. John Danks is a #1 in the making, the question is just when it will happen. I believe Peter Gammons or someone else at ESPN said regarding Danks and Greinke, something along the lines of the only question mark with those two was which one of them would win a Cy Young first.
That would make Peter Gammons or someone else a complete idiot in every sense.

Danks is damn solid, but Greinke is, well, the next Greg Maddux.

getonbckthr
01-26-2010, 08:58 PM
That would make Peter Gammons or someone else a complete idiot in every sense.

Danks is damn solid, but Greinke is, well, the next Greg Maddux.
Pencil Grienke in for 355 wins and a statue in Cooperstown, got it.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 08:59 PM
Pencil Grienke in for 355 wins and a statue in Cooperstown, got it.
It's an apt comparison. Dispute it if you disagree.

Red Barchetta
01-26-2010, 09:01 PM
Seriously the love for Thome is ****ing ridiculous. People are not only acting like this is the Thome from the 90's, but also that we're in the AL East. This move doesn't bother me the least except for the fact that I see one of my favorite players on my least favorite team, but hey that's baseball.

I agree. It was tough watching Dye, Konerko and Thome run the bases the last few years. It's time for a change, however I still think KW has another deal to pull off before the season starts.

whitem0nkey
01-26-2010, 09:06 PM
yep, first Joe Crede and now Thome. were doomed.



DOOMED!!


Meh, Thome, is not good enough to be on this team, rotating DH whatever.

And I love everything he did for the sox while he played with us, nothing but love for those year, and best of luck to him.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 09:09 PM
yep, first Joe Crede and now Thome. were doomed.



DOOMED!!


Meh, Thome, is not good enough to be on this team, rotating DH whatever.

And I love everything he did for the sox while he played with us, nothing but love for those year, and best of luck to him.
So he's not better than Kotsay/Jones?

whitem0nkey
01-26-2010, 09:14 PM
So he's not better than Kotsay/Jones?

if he would have brought us closer to a championship he would be on this team, but Ozzie and Kenny dont think so. so yeah he is not. I have no reason not to trust their judgment.

for him to be "good enough" he would have to play the field not just bat. he does not bring enough to the table.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 09:16 PM
if he would have brought us closer to a championship he would be on this team, but Ozzie and Kenny dont think so. so yeah he is not. I have no reason not to trust their judgment.

for him to be "good enough" he would have to play the field not just bat. he does not bring enough to the table.
I agree. We should have a platoon at designated hitter comprised of players who can field but can't hit. Reinventing the wheel, that Ozzie.

NoNeckEra
01-26-2010, 09:25 PM
"Add in the fact he is an awful pinch hitter I really don't get this move by the twins or Thome."

This comment makes the most sense to me. Any time he comes up as a PH, the opposing mgr will bring in a situational lefty and Thome will strike out.

He'll DH maybe 50 games and hit 10 homers with a .225 ave.

This decision by the Sox took guts, and I'm glad to see it.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 09:32 PM
I'm glad to see people are convinced by the 99 PA sample size to say that Thome sucks as a pinch hitter.

Yes, it takes guts to go without a designated hitter; along those lines, it also takes guts to cover oneself in raw meat and enter the lion's den.

JermaineDye05
01-26-2010, 09:45 PM
That would make Peter Gammons or someone else a complete idiot in every sense.

Danks is damn solid, but Greinke is, well, the next Greg Maddux.

That's easy for you to say when Greinke just won the Cy Young.

Danks hasn't hit that level yet but he has the potential.

Frater Perdurabo
01-26-2010, 09:47 PM
A few predictions:

The Sox will win (and lose) a lot of low-scoring games;

KW will try to acquire a LH slugger midseason;

Only 85 wins will be needed to win the AL Central this year;

If the Sox win the division, Ozzie deserves to be AL Manager of the Year;

If the Sox fail to win the division, Ozzie deserves to be fired

sullythered
01-26-2010, 09:47 PM
Jim Thome is a better hitter than any of the other options we have on the team. That is a point of fact. The man led our team in OPS last year. Had we signed him, the "he's a bad pinch hitter" theory would have been moot, because he would have hit his way into the everyday DH role. For this reason, I am dissapointed. Can a team still succeed despite not having a good hitter in the DH spot? Sure. But you make it easier on yourself if you do.

Rohan
01-26-2010, 09:48 PM
I'm canceling my season ticket plan.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 09:50 PM
A few predictions:

The Sox will win (and lose) a lot of low-scoring games;

KW will try to acquire a LH slugger midseason;

Only 85 wins will be needed to win the AL Central this year;

If the Sox win the division, Ozzie deserves to be AL Manager of the Year;

If the Sox fail to win the division, Ozzie deserves to be fired
Is 85 wins with the best rotation in baseball really cause for celebration? Especially when that number would no doubt higher with the addition of a true DH?

CHISOXFAN13
01-26-2010, 09:52 PM
I don't understand why he would sign that kind of deal. If he's going to get 600... Two years of playing just most of the time is easily enough. Now he may need 3.

What's so tough to understand? There isn't a team in MLB willing to give him every day at-bats. Pretty simple.

SoxandtheCityTee
01-26-2010, 09:56 PM
This move doesn't bother me the least except for the fact that I see one of my favorite players on my least favorite team, but hey that's baseball.

Yeah it is, but I still hate it when players I like go there. Crede, now Thome -- yuck.

NoNeckEra
01-26-2010, 09:57 PM
Jim Thome is a better hitter than any of the other options we have on the team. That is a point of fact. The man led our team in OPS last year. Had we signed him, the "he's a bad pinch hitter" theory would have been moot, because he would have hit his way into the everyday DH role. For this reason, I am dissapointed. Can a team still succeed despite not having a good hitter in the DH spot? Sure. But you make it easier on yourself if you do.

1) If Thome was such a good hitter, he would have gotten a better deal as a "free agent" than a part time gig with the Twins for 1.5 mil.
2) Thome walks a lot. That's a good thing. But he offsets that by clogging up the bases when he IS on base, and hitting into double plays.
3) If you hitch yourself to Thome as your fulltime DH, you handcuff yourself to the "all or nothing" style of offense all the time. Now you have flexibility and more team speed with Kotsay as your lefty.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 09:58 PM
1) If Thome was such a good hitter, he would have gotten a better deal as a "free agent" than a part time gig with the Twins for 1.5 mil.
2) Thome walks a lot. That's a good thing. But he offsets that by clogging up the bases when he IS on base, and hitting into double plays.
3) If you hitch yourself to Thome as your fulltime DH, you handcuff yourself to the "all or nothing" style of offense all the time. Now you have flexibility and more team speed with Kotsay as your lefty.
...and less slugging ability, on-base ability! Winning combination!

thedudeabides
01-26-2010, 10:00 PM
...and less slugging ability, on-base ability! Winning combination!


You do realize not everybody in this thread is talking directly to you? Is it just your goal to respond to every person in every thread regarding this topic?

I would like to see what some other people have to say about this without you chiming in every post.

TDog
01-26-2010, 10:02 PM
I'm glad to see people are convinced by the 99 PA sample size to say that Thome sucks as a pinch hitter.

Yes, it takes guts to go without a designated hitter; along those lines, it also takes guts to cover oneself in raw meat and enter the lion's den.

There is some reason for pessimism about Jim Thome's ability to be a successful pinch-hitter, and it isn't simply based on a small sample size.

During the last couple of seasons with the Sox, Thome hasn't been at all strong in the late innings, when pinch-hitting is probably going to be taking place, hitting .234 in the seventh, eighth and ninth in 2009 and .211 in the last three innings in 2008. He didn't get a hit in extra-innings last season. That covers more than 300 plate appearances, which probably is also a small sample size, depending on who is doing the analysis. But fans who watched a lot of games also knew that Thome didn't do well against southpaw relievers who often came in to face him in late-inning clutch situations.

I expect Carlos Quentin to get most of the at bats at designated hitter for the Sox next year, and I expect the Sox will be a better team for it.

sullythered
01-26-2010, 10:11 PM
1) If Thome was such a good hitter, he would have gotten a better deal as a "free agent" than a part time gig with the Twins for 1.5 mil.
2) Thome walks a lot. That's a good thing. But he offsets that by clogging up the bases when he IS on base, and hitting into double plays.
3) If you hitch yourself to Thome as your fulltime DH, you handcuff yourself to the "all or nothing" style of offense all the time. Now you have flexibility and more team speed with Kotsay as your lefty.
I said he is better than anybody else we have for the role. None of those guys would get full time roles anywhere else, either.

Also, we're a faster team in general now. Just having Jim Thome doesn't make you "all or nothing." I would also rather have somebody "clogging" the bases than not getting on them at all.

sullythered
01-26-2010, 10:13 PM
There is some reason for pessimism about Jim Thome's ability to be a successful pinch-hitter, and it isn't simply based on a small sample size.

During the last couple of seasons with the Sox, Thome hasn't been at all strong in the late innings, when pinch-hitting is probably going to be taking place, hitting .234 in the seventh, eighth and ninth in 2009 and .211 in the last three innings in 2008. He didn't get a hit in extra-innings last season. That covers more than 300 plate appearances, which probably is also a small sample size, depending on who is doing the analysis. But fans who watched a lot of games also knew that Thome didn't do well against southpaw relievers who often came in to face him in late-inning clutch situations.

I expect Carlos Quentin to get most of the at bats at designated hitter for the Sox next year, and I expect the Sox will be a better team for it.
I would be cool with this. But if it is the case, I would like the Sox to pick up a starting caliber major league outfielder to take his place. We don't have one of those right now.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 10:15 PM
You do realize not everybody in this thread is talking directly to you? Is it just your goal to respond to every person in every thread regarding this topic?

I would like to see what some other people have to say about this without you chiming in every post.
Aw, shucks. I'm interested in procuring from somebody, anybody, actually, explanations for their positions.

There is some reason for pessimism about Jim Thome's ability to be a successful pinch-hitter, and it isn't simply based on a small sample size.

During the last couple of seasons with the Sox, Thome hasn't been at all strong in the late innings, when pinch-hitting is probably going to be taking place, hitting .234 in the seventh, eighth and ninth in 2009 and .211 in the last three innings in 2008. He didn't get a hit in extra-innings last season. That covers more than 300 plate appearances, which probably is also a small sample size, depending on who is doing the analysis. But fans who watched a lot of games also knew that Thome didn't do well against southpaw relievers who often came in to face him in late-inning clutch situations.

I expect Carlos Quentin to get most of the at bats at designated hitter for the Sox next year, and I expect the Sox will be a better team for it.
Given Quentin's personality, I don't think DH is a role for him. As someone on another board said this week, a few bad at-bats and Quentin will probably hang himself in the cage.

Also, Quentin at DH means Kotsay is in RF most of the time. Let me know how that works out. His back won't allow it for long.

thedudeabides
01-26-2010, 10:20 PM
Aw, shucks. I'm interested in procuring from somebody, anybody, actually, explanations for their positions.


Maybe, you would get more if you dropped the smart ass remarks and condescending know-it-all tone. I've had meaningful discussions with you in the past, but you seem to have taken this Thome thing so personally you are just overrunning all of these threads, and trying to bully people into answers, when they are not even talking to you. I think everybody is clear what your position is, I was just curious to hear form others without you jumping in and making it about you.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 10:24 PM
Maybe, you would get more if you dropped the smart ass remarks and condescending know-it-all tone. I've had meaningful discussions with you in the past, but you seem to have taken this Thome thing so personally you are just overrunning all of these threads, and trying to bully people into answers, when they are not even talking to you. I think everybody is clear what your position is, I was just curious to hear form others without you jumping in and making it about you.
You can direct further tips on posting to my inbox.

Back to the actual task at hand, what do we do when Kotsay gets hurt? Jones full time? So, then what if he sucks?

Domeshot17
01-26-2010, 10:26 PM
So I don't get it. Again, most of you ARE COMFORTABLE with Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones combining for 500 at bats instead of getting a viable starting OF or DH?

voodoochile
01-26-2010, 10:27 PM
You can direct further tips on posting to my inbox.

Back to the actual task at hand, what do we do when Kotsay gets hurt? Jones full time? So, then what if he sucks?

Well whatever we do when those things inevitably happen the fix won't include Jim Thome. Now you can continue whining about it if you want to, but the milk has been spilled and it's flowed under the bridge so it seems to me it's a bit moot, but whatever, carry on...

I knew this thread would be an epic meltdown the minute I saw the title...

voodoochile
01-26-2010, 10:28 PM
So I don't get it. Again, most of you ARE COMFORTABLE with Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones combining for 500 at bats instead of getting a viable starting OF or DH?

Love to see another big bat on this team, but it's not going to be Jim Thome...

WhiteSox1989
01-26-2010, 10:33 PM
This sucks. Not just because we have to see Thome in a Twins uniform. But because it really looks like Ozzie meant what he said about the rotation DH. Boo.

beasly213
01-26-2010, 10:34 PM
So I don't get it. Again, most of you ARE COMFORTABLE with Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones combining for 500 at bats instead of getting a viable starting OF or DH?


No not at all. But I didn't want the Sox to sign Thome and am glad they didn't. Again if Thome wasn't such a great guy and he was the exact same player not nearly as many people on this board would be wanting him back.

We've let go of fan favorites in the past and done just fine.

thedudeabides
01-26-2010, 10:34 PM
So I don't get it. Again, most of you ARE COMFORTABLE with Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones combining for 500 at bats instead of getting a viable starting OF or DH?

I haven't really seen anybody that's comfortable with it. I know I'm not. Some just don't think Thome was the answer, some are willing to let it play out a bit, and some are just not willing to write the season off because of it yet.

DSpivack
01-26-2010, 10:53 PM
No not at all. But I didn't want the Sox to sign Thome and am glad they didn't. Again if Thome wasn't such a great guy and he was the exact same player not nearly as many people on this board would be wanting him back.

We've let go of fan favorites in the past and done just fine.

It's not like Thome sucked last year. He led the Sox in OPS.

DSpivack
01-26-2010, 11:07 PM
You do realize that Delmon Young played a majority of the games in LF for the Twinkees last year (98) when Kubel and Cuddyer were available to him? Kubel played 29 games in LF (30 in RF), while Cuddyer played 0 games in LF. By the way, Young DHed 8 games last year. Point is that even with superior hitters available, Gardenhire started Young in LF a majority of the time when either Cuddyer, Kubel, or Span (whichever one was not DHing or playing another position that day) was available.

This move would make sense to me for the Twins if Thome could hit lefties. But he's not much better at it than is Kubel. Both are good DH options against righties and struggle against southpaws. That's where I'm confused.

Nellie_Fox
01-27-2010, 12:27 AM
Guess what? Mauer's still going to crank, Morneau will crank, Kubel will crank, their defense will be stellar and their bullpen solid. And they have no starting pitching.

I imagine that many Twinkee fans are saying the same thing about our starting rotation.Yes, they are. I have lunch with them every day.

Pear-Zin-Ski
01-27-2010, 12:33 AM
:whiner:

Soxman219
01-27-2010, 01:20 AM
I don't see a problem with this. I like Thome but he wasn't going to help a lot. All we have to do is go injury-free and we'll be fine. The talent is there and we can finally score runs without trying to hit the long ball all the time. I don't understand why people are complaining.

Danielgosox38
01-27-2010, 05:05 AM
I don't see a problem with this. I like Thome but he wasn't going to help a lot. All we have to do is go injury-free and we'll be fine. The talent is there and we can finally score runs without trying to hit the long ball all the time. I don't understand why people are complaining.


How many languages do people have to say it in to get people to get a very simple concept? :scratch:

spawn
01-27-2010, 06:57 AM
This thread has been very entertaining.

RedHeadPaleHoser
01-27-2010, 07:04 AM
It sucks to see Thome in the blue pinstripes, but I'm not all that worried about him hurting us.

We have some intelligence on our pitching staff. They know what Thome likes to go after. Use it against him.

I'm no less happy about our DH situation, but no reason to start hand wringing just yet. I am very curious to see how much home field advantage the Twins do have playing outdoors.

Let's not forget Dr. Pain got Jim ready for everyday use - gotta keep that regimen up even if you don't play.

DumpJerry
01-27-2010, 07:19 AM
We have some intelligence on our pitching staff. They know what Thome likes to go after. Use it against him.
Jim feasts on pitches left over the Plate. Burls and Peavey are experts at painting the corners and the other three starters aren't too bad at it, either.

asindc
01-27-2010, 08:00 AM
Aw, shucks. I'm interested in procuring from somebody, anybody, actually, explanations for their positions.


Given Quentin's personality, I don't think DH is a role for him. As someone on another board said this week, a few bad at-bats and Quentin will probably hang himself in the cage.

Also, Quentin at DH means Kotsay is in RF most of the time. Let me know how that works out. His back won't allow it for long.

Since you (and a couple of other posters) have asked this before in other threads, you might want to take a few moments and read the posts listed in the linked post below from another thread that you have been participating in the past few days:

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2418719&postcount=454

white sox bill
01-27-2010, 08:22 AM
I'm more worried about how Thome my homey does when we aren't playing Twins. As one poster said, we have the scoop on Jim. Beckham plays a short right field and Alexi and Teahen move over one position.

I don't doubt Jim will burn us maybe a time or two. But in the big picture, I think we are better off letting someone else DH.

g0g0
01-27-2010, 08:47 AM
Sucks he signed with the Twinks, but good luck to him. I don't think he'll find that ring in MN though.

asindc
01-27-2010, 09:27 AM
I will summarize my thoughts on Thome (again) for those who keep asking, though I suspect at least one or two posters who visit this thread will ask again at some point. Before I do, however, I want to give my assessment of the DH options we have now.

Going into this offseason, I thought that the DH position would be filled rather easily among these candidates, in no particular order:

Jermaine Dye
Jim Thome
Carlos Delgado
Hideki Matsui
Hank Blalock
Russell Branyan
Xavier Nady
Ryan Garko

Upon hearing about Ozzie's comments about DH by committee, my thinking has not changed.


Players from the list above that are no longer available:

Thome
Matsui
Nady

I wanted Matsui, but I don't know if the Sox pursued him or if the Sox was among his preferred teams. I've never been a big fan of Nady, but I think he would have been effective here in a OF/DH rotation. My thoughts on Thome are coming up shortly.


Additional players have been brought up in media/fan speculation:

Johnny Damon
Randy Winn

So the revised list is as such:

Jermaine Dye
Carlos Delgado
Hank Blalock
Russell Branyan
Ryan Garko
Johnny Damon
Randy Winn

Here are my thoughts on each:

Dye
Pros:
1) Has been very productive slugger until 2nd half of last season.
2) Can play some RF in a pinch (maybe 4-5 games during season).
3) Is known and well-liked by Sox players and management.
Cons:
1) His drop off last season is alarming, as it is typical of the sudden decline that some players go through.
2) Did not handle Rios' arrival as well as I would have liked.
3) Does not want to play DH, the position he is best suited for at this point.
4) Right handed.

Delgado
Pros:
1) When healthy, can mash the ball with the best.
2) Can play some IB.
Cons:
1) Latest reports are that he is still limping.
2) Indicated in the past that he did not want to play here.

Blalock
Pros:
1) Can still hit for power.
Cons:
1) Strike out machine.
2) Often hurt, which limits him to DH at this point in his career at age 29.

Branyan
Pros:
1) Prototypical LH slugger.
2) Had best year last year at age 33.
3) Can play 1B.
Cons:
1) Strike out machine.
2) Given history, it is a gamble that he will come close to 2009 production.

Garko
Pros:
1) Has some power to go with decent OBP numbers.
2) Can play both 1B and OF.
3) Still only 29 years old.
Cons:
1) Right handed.
2) Mets are known to be very interested, so given his age and consistent production, might be priced higher than what Sox want to pay.

Damon
Pros:
1) Exceptional offensive player in all aspects of the game.
2) Is ideal for the OF/DH rotation that Ozzie envisions.
3) Is the kind of player JR and KW might be willing to go over budget to get.
Cons:
1) Best player on the list, and as such will command highest price among those on this list.
2) Never a great fielder, might become even more limited at age 36.

Winn
Pros:
1) Offers defensive upgrade for rotation.
2) Switch hitter.
Cons:
1) To the extent he had any power at all, those days are long gone.
2) His speed has diminished significantly as well at age 35.

As this post is getting rather lengthy, I will summarize my thoughts (again) on the Thome decision in another post.

asindc
01-27-2010, 09:27 AM
While I understand to some extent why some are upset about the Sox decision to not re-sign Thome, I agree with that decision. Here is why:

Pros for bringing him back:
1) Left handed power hitter with high OBP.
2) Great clubhouse guy.
3) Is known and well-liked by Sox players and management.

Cons against bringing him back:
1) Can only DH, which does not fit into team's plans for 2010 season.
2) His fitness is a concern, which might limit his ABs to the point that he cannot significantly contribute.
3) Despite being such a smart player overall, including base running, his inefficient scoring ability once on base hinders not only his ability to score, but also the ability of those who directly follow him in the batting lineup. Simply put, his inefficient scoring ability offsets his high OBP.
4) Strike out machine.

As I have said before, I would not have protested a decision to bring him back, but I would not have done so myself if it was up to me, given the other options available. I prefer the following players, in this order:

Damon
Garko
Branyan
Dye
Blalock
Delgado

This is my analysis, which is a combination of fact, speculation, and opinion. I have expressed most of this in various threads over the past few days. Similar thoughts and opinions have been expressed by other posters over the past few days. My speculation and opinion is based on my observations of each player's production in the past and what I have read/heard about each player's current status.

I know this much: The Sox management know much more about the situation than any of us do. This should not prevent anyone from disagreeing with this decision, of course, but we should realize that we don't have all the information at our disposal. While the facts in this post are presented as given, the speculation and opinion are not.