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Rockabilly
01-26-2010, 11:34 AM
According to a report out here in San Fran on sports radio.

Taliesinrk
01-26-2010, 11:44 AM
According to a report out here in San Fran on sports radio.

If the Sox sign him, I'd bet money that it means the roster (at least offensively) is set. I'd also bet money that the boards blow up because some here will lose it.

PalehosePlanet
01-26-2010, 11:45 AM
According to a report out here in San Fran on sports radio.

This would have made sense prior to our acquiring Pierre. I just don't see it now; we need a slugger type of player.

Rockabilly
01-26-2010, 11:45 AM
I hope we stay away from Winn.

psyclonis
01-26-2010, 11:46 AM
Hes a good RF with speed but no power.
Even if he signs for ~$3M/1, where would he play now that we have Pierre? :scratch:
EDIT: more like where would Pierre play...

DirtySox
01-26-2010, 11:46 AM
While he doesn't possess great offensive abilities, he would be a great boost defensively. That would allow Quentin/Pierre to DH a great bit. Kind of like.

rowand33
01-26-2010, 12:09 PM
He's not a terrible player, but he has no power and can't hit lefties. I don't think he really fits.

If we're not getting Thome, the only real free agent I have interest in is Delgado I guess.

Saufley
01-26-2010, 12:18 PM
Last I heard about Delgado is that he doesn't look too healthy with that bad hip of his.

thedudeabides
01-26-2010, 12:34 PM
Last I heard about Delgado is that he doesn't look too healthy with that bad hip of his.

He is supposedly limping out to the field in the DR winter league. Most think he will be relegated to full time DH duties. Never really thought he was an option, as he has stated in the past he didn't want to play here.

As far as Winn goes, he would upgrade the roster. If he's playing right the Sox will have one of the better defensive outfields in baseball.

PaleHoser
01-26-2010, 12:36 PM
If this happens, maybe Quentin DH's to save the wear and tear on his foot?

JohnnyInnsbrook
01-26-2010, 12:42 PM
He's not a terrible player, but he has no power and can't hit lefties. I don't think he really fits.

If we're not getting Thome, the only real free agent I have interest in is Delgado I guess.


wow your not kidding!!! VS. LEFT: .158 / .384
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=3837

SephClone89
01-26-2010, 12:47 PM
If this happens, maybe Quentin DH's to save the wear and tear on his foot?

There's an idea. A near-everyday outfield of Pierre, Rios and Winn, with Quentin mostly DHing. In that case Jones wouldn't make the roster, though, and relying on Quentin as DH would be risky, though not much riskier than the current platoon prospect.

kobo
01-26-2010, 01:01 PM
and relying on Quentin as DH would be risky, though not much riskier than the current platoon prospect.
Relying on Quentin to be a full time right fielder is riskier than him being a full time DH.

jej254
01-26-2010, 01:06 PM
i'll take him. solid defensively. can play all three spots if needed. can steal some bases. .286 career hitter. switch hitter. played for kane county cougars. been very durable. but people will cry cause he isnt thome.

Domeshot17
01-26-2010, 01:07 PM
Oh God no. An OF of Pierre Rios and Winn may actually not combine for 30 home runs

kittle42
01-26-2010, 01:07 PM
i'll take him. solid defensively. can play all three spots if needed. can steal some bases. .286 career hitter. switch hitter. played for kane county cougars. been very durable. but people will cry cause he isnt thome.

Ooh, sign me up!

kittle42
01-26-2010, 01:08 PM
Oh God no. An OF of Pierre Rios and Winn may actually not combine for 30 home runs

Haven't you heard? We don't really need home runs. Speed and being able to play multiple positions - no matter how much you generally suck otherwise, is key!

russ99
01-26-2010, 01:12 PM
Hm. I guess the determining factor if "you suck" is how many homers you hit.

So let's see:
>40 is awesome
>30 is OK
<25 is bad
<10 is you don't belong in the big leagues regardless of what else you bring to the table.

What happened to "In Kenny we Trust"??

Maybe some of you should watch a few innings of 2010 Sox baseball first before griping and predetermining how awful the team is.

Considering where we were last year at this time, I'm very optimistic.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 01:18 PM
Hm. I guess the determining factor if "you suck" is how many homers you hit.

So let's see:
>40 is awesome
>30 is OK
<25 is bad
<10 is you don't belong in the big leagues regardless of what else you bring to the table.

What happened to "In Kenny we Trust"??

Maybe some of you should watch a few innings of 2010 Sox baseball first before griping and predetermining how awful the team is.

Considering where we were last year at this time, I'm very optimistic.
Would you prefer everyone just post the same thing after acquisitions?

Domeshot17
01-26-2010, 01:36 PM
Hm. I guess the determining factor if "you suck" is how many homers you hit.

So let's see:
>40 is awesome
>30 is OK
<25 is bad
<10 is you don't belong in the big leagues regardless of what else you bring to the table.

What happened to "In Kenny we Trust"??

Maybe some of you should watch a few innings of 2010 Sox baseball first before griping and predetermining how awful the team is.

Considering where we were last year at this time, I'm very optimistic.

(1) Kenny hasn't picked him up. For all we know this is another typical Rockabilly Rumor.

(2) You can't just completely ignore power and hope to win, it doesn't work in the AL. Look at the teams who consistently win in the AL, they slug AND they pitch.

chunk
01-26-2010, 01:51 PM
Hm. I guess the determining factor if "you suck" is how many homers you hit.

So let's see:
>40 is awesome
>30 is OK
<25 is bad
<10 is you don't belong in the big leagues regardless of what else you bring to the table.

What happened to "In Kenny we Trust"??

Maybe some of you should watch a few innings of 2010 Sox baseball first before griping and predetermining how awful the team is.

Considering where we were last year at this time, I'm very optimistic.

Is an OPS of 670 enough to say he sucks? If last years numbers are an indication of things to come, an OF of Pierre, Rios, and Winn would be comically bad. If Rios bounces back I'd upgrade it to hilariously bad.

AzureJazzMan
01-26-2010, 02:09 PM
According to a report out here in San Fran on sports radio.

Hey Rock, what station is it on? I'll tune it in on the internet while I work.

oeo
01-26-2010, 02:14 PM
I'd rather have Winn than Jones.

I really don't think homeruns are going to be much of a problem as is actually getting on base and scoring runs. Homeruns will come in the Cell. It won't be your typical Sox team that hits 200+, but 170-180 is not out of the question, which would be middle of the pack in the AL.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 02:15 PM
I'd rather have Winn than Jones.

I really don't think homeruns are going to be much of a problem as is actually getting on base and scoring runs. Homeruns will come in the Cell. It won't be your typical Sox team that hits 200+, but 170-180 is not out of the question, which would be middle of the pack in the AL.
..which wouldn't be a problem, provided that we had guys who reach base. We don't.

chunk
01-26-2010, 02:16 PM
I'd rather have Winn than Jones.

I really don't think power is going to be much of a problem as is actually getting on base and scoring runs. Homeruns will come in the Cell. It won't be your typical Sox team that hits 200+, but 170-180 is not out of the question, which would be middle of the pack in the AL.

KW doesn't appear to care about OBP though.

Plus wasn't Ozzie worried about Thome's ability to hit lefties? Winn's #s against lefties last year were abysmal.

oeo
01-26-2010, 02:18 PM
..which wouldn't be a problem, provided that we had guys who reach base. We don't.

Which is exactly what I said...

KW doesn't appear to care about OBP though.

I know. I saw a quote that when asked about Pierre's OBP, he said, "I'll take his SB potential." Why didn't someone come right back with, "how do you steal a base if you're not actually on base?"

dickallen15
01-26-2010, 02:22 PM
Which is exactly what I said...



I know. I saw a quote that when asked about Pierre's OBP, he said, "I'll take his SB potential." Why didn't someone come right back with, "how do you steal a base if you're not actually on base?"

Or question Ozzie when he said he would rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 homers because he was looking for production. Its very bizaare at 35th and Shields right now.

russ99
01-26-2010, 02:33 PM
Which is exactly what I said...



I know. I saw a quote that when asked about Pierre's OBP, he said, "I'll take his SB potential." Why didn't someone come right back with, "how do you steal a base if you're not actually on base?"

The guy hits .280-.300 and rarely strikes out. I'd rather see a guy like Pierre put the ball in play, than guys like Dunn with 120+ Ks and a higher OBP, which is slightly power-inflated.

DirtySox
01-26-2010, 02:36 PM
The guy hits .280-.300 and rarely strikes out. I'd rather see a guy like Pierre put the ball in play, than guys like Dunn with 120+ Ks and a higher OBP, which is slightly power-inflated.

You would prefer Juan Pierre on your team over Adam Dunn?

Lillian
01-26-2010, 02:38 PM
That proposed trade of A. Gonzalez for our farm system is looking better every day. Give them what they want, including Hudson, and worry about it in 2012. This team really needs a big bat if they are serious about a run at the World Series.

Domeshot17
01-26-2010, 02:48 PM
What is with this fallacy that to be a good offensive team you don't need homers and you need to not strike out?

8 of the top 10 offenses in baseball struck out more than the White Sox last year

Only 5 teams had FEWER K's than the White Sox last year. The Sox were the 6th toughest team to strike out in baseball, 4th in the AL.

7 of the top 10 offenses in Baseball had more homers than the Sox

EVERY 200 Homer team was in the top 10 in offense in baseball

The Sox were in the bottom half of slugging in the league, and only the Royals slugged less than us last year in the Al Central.

The Chicago White Sox had EXACTLY 2 MORE Extra Base Hits.........than the Pittsburgh Pirates.

The Sox were 20th in the league in OPS.

So again, tell me which of these Problems Randy Winn fixes and why he is a better addition than Adam Dunn ?

Jim Shorts
01-26-2010, 02:51 PM
What's bizarre is people are taking KW and OG so literally on January 26.


Hasn't anyone learned that trying to figure out what KW and OG are up to by listening to what they say is a futile exercise? Even in late Feb, late June, before the final waiver line....

SI1020
01-26-2010, 02:52 PM
Or question Ozzie when he said he would rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 homers because he was looking for production. Its very bizaare at 35th and Shields right now. Yes it is.

Gammons Peter
01-26-2010, 02:53 PM
That proposed trade of A. Gonzalez for our farm system is looking better every day. Give them what they want, including Hudson, and worry about it in 2012. This team really needs a big bat if they are serious about a run at the World Series.


Yes it does.
The only problem is that it was never a proposed trade.

thedudeabides
01-26-2010, 02:56 PM
What's bizarre is people are taking KW and OG so literally on January 26.


Hasn't anyone learned that trying to figure out what KW and OG are up to by listening to what they say is a futile exercise? Even in late Feb, late June, before the final waiver line....

You would think people would have learned. It's really just a handful that are getting really upset, in a lot of different threads, about a roster that's not yet finalized.

oeo
01-26-2010, 02:59 PM
You would think people would have learned. It's really just a handful that are getting really upset, in a lot of different threads, about a roster that's not yet finalized.

First off, I haven't seen anyone that's really upset. There are people concerned whether this team will be able to score enough runs to win.

Secondly, what possible changes do you see happening? The roster is pretty much set and there isn't anyone out there that can be that big bat this team is sorely lacking.

dickallen15
01-26-2010, 03:00 PM
You would think people would have learned. It's really just a handful that are getting really upset, in a lot of different threads, about a roster that's not yet finalized.

I used to agree with you, but this seems pretty eched. I don't know what happened along the way where a DH is poison with the White Sox. They have employed 3 of the best who ever played in Baines, Thomas and Thome. Also remember I don't think anyone really believed Dewayne Wise would be leading off and playing CF last year. It turns out they weren't kidding. I hope this is all a joke, but when your manager would rather have a player steal 50 bases than hit 50 homers, you have to question the thought process.

thedudeabides
01-26-2010, 03:23 PM
First off, I haven't seen anyone that's really upset. There are people concerned whether this team will be able to score enough runs to win.

Secondly, what possible changes do you see happening? The roster is pretty much set and there isn't anyone out there that can be that big bat this team is sorely lacking.

I don't mean like screaming from the rooftops pissed, but enough where a few posters just seem to not be able to let it go, and rush to repeat the same mantra over and over in a number of threads. I have seem some harsh statements about management. Nothing out of the ordinary.

I used to agree with you, but this seems pretty eched. I don't know what happened along the way where a DH is poison with the White Sox. They have employed 3 of the best who ever played in Baines, Thomas and Thome. Also remember I don't think anyone really believed Dewayne Wise would be leading off and playing CF last year. It turns out they weren't kidding. I hope this is all a joke, but when your manager would rather have a player steal 50 bases than hit 50 homers, you have to question the thought process.

I put my opinions down about it quite a bit in the Thome thread. It's etched that Ozzie didn't want Thome, not that he doesn't want another player added to the mix. It's obvious they are exploring a lot of options. Thome, Nick Johnson, Chad Tracy, and now Winn have been linked to the Sox just in the past couple of weeks. Imagine all of the talks we haven't heard about. I don't think they are done.

rowand33
01-26-2010, 03:34 PM
He's not a terrible player, but he has no power and can't hit lefties. I don't think he really fits.

If we're not getting Thome, the only real free agent I have interest in is Delgado I guess.

I take that back; I'd be most interested in Gomes at this point...

DickAllen72
01-26-2010, 03:37 PM
That proposed trade of A. Gonzalez for our farm system is looking better every day. Give them what they want, including Hudson, and worry about it in 2012. This team really needs a big bat if they are serious about a run at the World Series.
Agreed 100%.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 04:02 PM
The guy hits .280-.300 and rarely strikes out. I'd rather see a guy like Pierre put the ball in play, than guys like Dunn with 120+ Ks and a higher OBP, which is slightly power-inflated.
Ah, yes, Adam Dunn, the "slight" power hitter.

soxinem1
01-26-2010, 04:11 PM
Hes a good RF with speed but no power.
Even if he signs for ~$3M/1, where would he play now that we have Pierre? :scratch:
EDIT: more like where would Pierre play...

This is all a part of Ozzie's plan to revolutionize MLB and the DH.

With Juan as DH, Ozzie will bet the ranch that he will break the all-time record for most SB's in a season for a full-time DH............. and the fewest RBI's as well.

What is with this fallacy that to be a good offensive team you don't need homers and you need to not strike out?

8 of the top 10 offenses in baseball struck out more than the White Sox last year

Only 5 teams had FEWER K's than the White Sox last year. The Sox were the 6th toughest team to strike out in baseball, 4th in the AL.

7 of the top 10 offenses in Baseball had more homers than the Sox

EVERY 200 Homer team was in the top 10 in offense in baseball

The Sox were in the bottom half of slugging in the league, and only the Royals slugged less than us last year in the Al Central.

The Chicago White Sox had EXACTLY 2 MORE Extra Base Hits.........than the Pittsburgh Pirates.

The Sox were 20th in the league in OPS.

So again, tell me which of these Problems Randy Winn fixes and why he is a better addition than Adam Dunn ?

I agree. Another slap hitter (who is not much younger and less productive than Thome, BTW) will make the 1988 White Sox lineup look like mashers compared to this one.

CPditka
01-26-2010, 04:41 PM
If we were going to sign Winn, why would we do the Pierre deal. Keep the prospects and get a very similar player... Those prospects could go a long way towards getting a bat midseason.

munchman33
01-26-2010, 04:50 PM
I don't mean like screaming from the rooftops pissed, but enough where a few posters just seem to not be able to let it go, and rush to repeat the same mantra over and over in a number of threads. I have seem some harsh statements about management. Nothing out of the ordinary.




That isn't nearly as annoying as the mantra of "the roster isn't finalized, there's plenty of time left."

This team isn't going to score runs, and there aren't a lot of ways left to make it score runs. We are going to live and die by our pitching. While our pitching is good, that situation was simply unnecessary.

Maybe Jim Thome as DH was a bad idea. But leaving the DH to Kotsay and Jones? That's a terrible option. Every team in the American League goes into every game with a decided advantage over our squad. Some NL teams too.

Maybe we could let our righties try hitting lefty this year? You know, so we're more flexible?

I love Ozzie. But his logic on the DH position is faulty at best.

SSrep
01-26-2010, 04:58 PM
Maybe it's just a way to incorporate the new slogan, 'Wynn or Dye?...Trying'

Rdy2PlayBall
01-26-2010, 05:13 PM
Please no.

dwalteroo
01-26-2010, 05:23 PM
Maybe it's just a way to incorporate the new slogan, 'Wynn or Dye?...Trying'

:clap: Fantastic, and hilarious.

russ99
01-26-2010, 06:07 PM
You would prefer Juan Pierre on your team over Adam Dunn?

Not necessarily, I'd prefer both.

But this idea that someone "sucks" because of his OBP or even worse OPS - which is heavily weighted towards HR hitters, is ridiculous.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:08 PM
Not necessarily, I'd prefer both.

But this idea that someone "sucks" because of his OBP or even worse OPS - which is heavily weighted towards HR hitters, is ridiculous.
Explain, please. I want to know why a player with a low OBP is valuable (in offensive terms, as this is an offensive discussion -- save the defense for another time.).

russ99
01-26-2010, 06:14 PM
Explain, please. I want to know why a player with a low OBP is valuable (in offensive terms, as this is an offensive discussion -- save the defense for another time.).

What's you're idea of a good OBP - .400? IMO - .350 from a player that brings other things to the table like a high average, 40-50 steals, 100 runs and a low K rate, .350 is OK.

If we had $150M to spend on players like the Yankees, than .400 would be a reasonable bottom level, but Pierre is a pretty good leadoff guy, regardless of some of the past numbers, where he played part-time and had some bad injuries.

Craig Grebeck
01-26-2010, 06:19 PM
What's you're idea of a good OBP - .400? IMO - .350 from a player that brings other things to the table like a high average, 40-50 steals, 100 runs and a low K rate, .350 is OK.

If we had $150M to spend on players like the Yankees, than .400 would be a reasonable bottom level, but Pierre is a pretty good leadoff guy, regardless of some of the past numbers, where he played part-time and had some bad injuries.
The odds of Juan Pierre reaching a .350 OBP are, well, not good.

What injuries were those exactly?

steely712
01-26-2010, 07:39 PM
What about Dye? Everyone keeps mentioning people like Winn, but what did Dye ever do to not be on our radar, other than half of last year he has been our best player and am wondering why his name isn't being mentioned at all. I will take Dye over any of the free agents still available out there right now, Quentin and Dye could easily platoon at DH and Right field.

:scratch:

tm1119
01-26-2010, 08:43 PM
wow your not kidding!!! VS. LEFT: .158 / .384
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=3837

Seems like a down year as a right handed hitter though. He is a life time .280 .332 hitter as a righty against left handed pitchers.

As for signing him? I dont really see the point, but it certainly wouldnt hurt anything either. At this point adding any decent hitter will be an upgrade to our offense. Winn would be a solid bottom of the order hitter to give Quentin days off at DH, and would also provide a lot better D as well. He better be cheap if he comes here though.

A. Cavatica
01-26-2010, 09:08 PM
That proposed trade of A. Gonzalez for our farm system is looking better every day. Give them what they want, including Hudson, and worry about it in 2012. This team really needs a big bat if they are serious about a run at the World Series.

As long as they can teach him to bunt, hit to the opposite field and steal bases. Extra-base hits are for the birds.

rdivaldi
01-26-2010, 10:16 PM
There seems to be quite a bit of chest thumping about what is bad/average/good in terms of hitting. To end some of the speculating here are the 2009 AL splits (BA/OBP/OPS). Do with them as you may, these are here to help.

For reference the average AL hitter was: .267/.336/.764

C: .254/.316/.724
1B: .271/.351/.832
2B: .275/.336/.764
3B: .269/.338/.762
SS: .274/.329/.719
LF: .267/.338/.780
CF: .265/.329/.733
RF: .278/.353/.803
DH: .255/.337/.780

Batting 1st: .284/.355/.775
2nd: .277/.337/.767
3rd: .274/.348/.805
4th: .265/.347/.810
5th: .273/.344/.803
6th: .265/.335/.785
7th: .257/.322/.736
8th: .252/.318/.716
9th: .245/.305/.654

Lillian
01-27-2010, 04:14 AM
What about Dye? Everyone keeps mentioning people like Winn, but what did Dye ever do to not be on our radar, other than half of last year he has been our best player and am wondering why his name isn't being mentioned at all. I will take Dye over any of the free agents still available out there right now, Quentin and Dye could easily platoon at DH and Right field.

:scratch:

Didn't Dye say that he would not accept a D.H. role? There is no way that he should see any playing time on defense if he signed with the Sox, at least not in the outfield. Quentin, Rios, Pierre, Jones and Kotsay are all better defensive options than Dye. If he wants to come back to D.H., at a greatly reduced salary, that wouldn't be a bad move. However, that still wouldn't satisfy the need for a left handed bat.

ike from nj
01-27-2010, 04:50 AM
Explain, please. I want to know why a player with a low OBP is valuable (in offensive terms, as this is an offensive discussion -- save the defense for another time.).

Take Pods from 2005-2006. He did numerous things that made him valuable. He would make the pitcher have to worry about him at first. Throwing over. Pitch outs etc. Also, how many games did he get a lead off hit, stole second and end up scoring in the first inning to put the sox up 1-0? There are other ways you can contribute. Is there a statistic for % of time scoring once reaching base? A huge complaint with Thome/Dye and the rest of the slow players is that they couldnt score on a single from 2nd base. That was the primary excuse people had here for AJ's RBI numbers. These types of players do not have that problem. And how about avoiding double plays either by stealing 2nd base or beating a throw to 1st? Look, nobody is going to say a Pods/Pierre type player is going to be the AL MVP. However, those types of players can be valuable.

asindc
01-27-2010, 07:56 AM
Take Pods from 2005-2006. He did numerous things that made him valuable. He would make the pitcher have to worry about him at first. Throwing over. Pitch outs etc. Also, how many games did he get a lead off hit, stole second and end up scoring in the first inning to put the sox up 1-0? There are other ways you can contribute. Is there a statistic for % of time scoring once reaching base? A huge complaint with Thome/Dye and the rest of the slow players is that they couldnt score on a single from 2nd base. That was the primary excuse people had here for AJ's RBI numbers. These types of players do not have that problem. And how about avoiding double plays either by stealing 2nd base or beating a throw to 1st? Look, nobody is going to say a Pods/Pierre type player is going to be the AL MVP. However, those types of players can be valuable.

Excellent point. I have yet to see such a statistic, but it is why using OBP and OPS does not reflect a player's entire value in many cases, especially guys whose game is predicated on speed. Harold Reynolds has talked about this in saying that OPS is a limited statistic, since it assumes that virtually all players will score at the same rate once they reach base, all else being equal. And it is not just the individual player being inefficient at scoring once on base that hurts a team. His below average ability to score directly hinders the ability to score of those who follow him in the batting order.

Gammons Peter
01-27-2010, 08:34 AM
Excellent point. I have yet to see such a statistic, but it is why using OBP and OPS does not reflect a player's entire value in many cases, especially guys whose game is predicated on speed. Harold Reynolds has talked about this in saying that OPS is a limited statistic, since it assumes that virtually all players will score at the same rate once they reach base, all else being equal. And it is not just the individual player being inefficient at scoring once on base that hurts a team. His below average ability to score directly hinders the ability to score of those who follow him in the batting order.


Yes, take a look at Mr. OBP Thome. He scored 55 runs, 23 of those came from his own home runs. That means that all of those wonderful walks he took, plus all of his singles and reaches from errors & fielders choice earned him about 30 runs scored....big deal.

dickallen15
01-27-2010, 09:08 AM
Yes, take a look at Mr. OBP Thome. He scored 55 runs, 23 of those came from his own home runs. That means that all of those wonderful walks he took, plus all of his singles and reaches from errors & fielders choice earned him about 30 runs scored....big deal.

Of course you mention Thome's worst year scoring runs. He's usually good for 90+ over the course of his career. Better than Kotsay. Better than Jones. Better than Vizquel.
In fact using their career stats over 162 game avg.

Thome 105 runs/162 games
Jones 94 runs/162 games
Vizquel 81 runs/162 games
Kotsay 77 runs/162 games

None are at the peek of their careers. They all are in the final days. I'd take Thome over the rest any day.

munchman33
01-27-2010, 09:23 AM
Of course you mention Thome's worst year scoring runs. He's usually good for 90+ over the course of his career. Better than Kotsay. Better than Jones. Better than Vizquel.
In fact using their career stats over 162 game avg.

Thome 105 runs/162 games
Jones 94 runs/162 games
Vizquel 81 runs/162 games
Kotsay 77 runs/162 games

None are at the peek of their careers. They all are in the final days. I'd take Thome over the rest any day.

Thome was noticabley slower last year. Scoring runs was never a problem for him before, especially with his high OBP. But his high OBP last year did not lead to a lot of runs, specifically because he became SO slow that it took three hits to score him.

dickallen15
01-27-2010, 09:27 AM
Thome was noticabley slower last year. Scoring runs was never a problem for him before, especially with his high OBP. But his high OBP last year did not lead to a lot of runs, specifically because he became SO slow that it took three hits to score him.

His OBP was lower last year than normal. He's definitely on the downslope but so are the other 3. He is the best offensive player of the four even at this point.

Gammons Peter
01-27-2010, 09:31 AM
Of course you mention Thome's worst year scoring runs. He's usually good for 90+ over the course of his career. Better than Kotsay. Better than Jones. Better than Vizquel.
In fact using their career stats over 162 game avg.

Thome 105 runs/162 games
Jones 94 runs/162 games
Vizquel 81 runs/162 games
Kotsay 77 runs/162 games

None are at the peek of their careers. They all are in the final days. I'd take Thome over the rest any day.


my mistake, I should have used his stats from when he was in his 20's and early 30's

munchman33
01-27-2010, 09:31 AM
His OBP was lower last year than normal. He's definitely on the downslope but so are the other 3. He is the best offensive player of the four even at this point.

That's assuming Jones, who's in shape for the first time in five years, doesn't hit better. Not to mention, while Jones didn't score that often last year, he scored more often when he was on base, and nearly matched Thome's runs scored. Add to that he can play the outfield, and there's a pretty good case for him over Thome.

Now, I don't necessarily buy that case. We're debating bad options. And if Thome was here instead, it would only be another option that MIGHT pan out. With the plethera of available DH candadites this offseason, it's a little tough to swallow that our situation ended up a debate between a Kotsay/Jones platoon or Jim Thome. Because neither should have been option ten.

russ99
01-27-2010, 09:47 AM
Of course you mention Thome's worst year scoring runs. He's usually good for 90+ over the course of his career. Better than Kotsay. Better than Jones. Better than Vizquel.

The dude's 40. He might have a small bump from last years numbers, but it's more likely he'll equal or recede from what he did last year.

dickallen15
01-27-2010, 09:48 AM
The dude's 40. He might have a small bump from last years numbers, but it's more likely he'll equal or recede from what he did last year.
You can say the same about his replacements.

munchman33
01-27-2010, 09:50 AM
You can say the same about his replacements.

Can you? None of them are 40, and Jones has actually been trending up.

dickallen15
01-27-2010, 10:14 AM
Can you? None of them are 40, and Jones has actually been trending up.
The last 3 years Jones has hit a combined .207. He sucks. He hit below .200 in 2008 and below .200 after April 2009. If that's trending up, you should work for Boras.

BTW, there's a lot of mentions of Jones being 32 or 33. That's been questioned for years. Many believe Jones is at least a couple of years older than his listed age. It could explain his massive drop off, at least partially.

34 Inch Stick
01-27-2010, 10:15 AM
His runs scored might have been reduced because of Dye's horrible BA with RISP.

munchman33
01-27-2010, 10:30 AM
His runs scored might have been reduced because of Dye's horrible BA with RISP.

Thome never has a good BA. His high OBP is a function of his walks, so he wouldn't be in scoring position.

munchman33
01-27-2010, 10:31 AM
The last 3 years Jones has hit a combined .207. He sucks. He hit below .200 in 2008 and below .200 after April 2009. If that's trending up, you should work for Boras.

BTW, there's a lot of mentions of Jones being 32 or 33. That's been questioned for years. Many believe Jones is at least a couple of years older than his listed age. It could explain his massive drop off, at least partially.

You know very well Jones' value on offense is not his BA. By that logic, I could make a case against Thome based on how his steals have gone down.

dickallen15
01-27-2010, 10:35 AM
You know very well Jones' value on offense is not his BA. By that logic, I could make a case against Thome based on how his steals have gone down.

And neither is Thome's. Its about power. Thome still has more power than Jones, and gets on base at a more frequent clip. Its not like Jones runs well anymore. Thome is better. I'm not going to cry the Sox didn't bring him back, but against a RHP Jim Thome is a far better option as a DH than Kotsay or Jones or Vizquel.

chunk
01-27-2010, 10:37 AM
That's assuming Jones, who's in shape for the first time in five years, doesn't hit better. Not to mention, while Jones didn't score that often last year, he scored more often when he was on base, and nearly matched Thome's runs scored. Add to that he can play the outfield, and there's a pretty good case for him over Thome.


How many years now have people been saying that Jones is in shape and motivated to play for a contract?

Not necessarily, I'd prefer both.

But this idea that someone "sucks" because of his OBP or even worse OPS - which is heavily weighted towards HR hitters, is ridiculous.

OPS is easily the best slash stat in terms of predicting runs scored. There is a massive correlation between OPS and runs scored.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/ops-for-the-masses/

Yes, take a look at Mr. OBP Thome. He scored 55 runs, 23 of those came from his own home runs. That means that all of those wonderful walks he took, plus all of his singles and reaches from errors & fielders choice earned him about 30 runs scored....big deal.

Think of it this way. You can't score runs if you don't get on base. Therefore, it's plainly simple that the guy who gets on base most has the highest likelihood of scoring runs. Of course, following that you have to have good hitters behind you, which wasn't really the case last year.

asindc
01-27-2010, 10:43 AM
How many years now have people been saying that Jones is in shape and motivated to play for a contract?



OPS is easily the best slash stat in terms of predicting runs scored. There is a massive correlation between OPS and runs scored.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/ops-for-the-masses/



Think of it this way. You can't score runs if you don't get on base. Therefore, it's plainly simple that the guy who gets on base most has the highest likelihood of scoring runs. Of course, following that you have to have good hitters behind you, which wasn't really the case last year.

Would that have been the case this year, given who we have on the roster now?

chunk
01-27-2010, 10:47 AM
I'd say our roster now is equal to or worse than last year.

DSpivack
01-27-2010, 10:51 AM
I'd say our roster now is equal to or worse than last year.

I think Peavy alone tips the scales in favor of 2010.

spawn
01-27-2010, 10:51 AM
I'd say our roster now is equal to or worse than last year.
I'd say you have no idea what you're talking about.

chunk
01-27-2010, 10:57 AM
I think Peavy alone tips the scales in favor of 2010.

I'm sorry, I meant in regards to hitting. Pitching is clearly upgraded.

khan
01-27-2010, 11:03 AM
That's assuming Jones, who's in shape for the first time in five years, doesn't hit better.
I must have missed the press conference where MLB legalized PEDs, enabling Andruw Jones to have his first decent year since they started testing. Jones being in shape [based on ONE superfluous account] means relatively little, to tell you the truth...

Not to mention, while Jones didn't score that often last year, he scored more often when he was on base, and nearly matched Thome's runs scored.
Sure. Jones did so on one of the best offenses in the AL, while Thome was on one of the worst in the league. Being able to score runs is a function of your team mates abilities to get you in, once the individual hitter gets on base. [Which Thome did last year, and ALL of his career.]

Add to that he can play the outfield, and there's a pretty good case for him over Thome.
So can Pierre, Rios, Quentin, Kotsay, Teahen, and Nix. I'd say that Jones [the DH] as a backup OF is pretty much a moot point. For that matter, having enough depth in the OF is a moot point, since 6 in big league roster have already shown the ability to play the OF, BEFORE considering Jones.

Having a team that can slug better than last year and get on base, and score more runs than last year IS a cogent point.

Now, I don't necessarily buy that case. We're debating bad options. And if Thome was here instead, it would only be another option that MIGHT pan out. With the plethera of available DH candadites this offseason, it's a little tough to swallow that our situation ended up a debate between a Kotsay/Jones platoon or Jim Thome. Because neither should have been option ten.
Sure. Given the [probable] financial realities of this team, Thome was the best option of the three, whether we like it or not.

asindc
01-27-2010, 11:10 AM
I'd say our roster now is equal to or worse than last year.

Let's see, here's my take on it...

2009 - 2010

Starting pitching
Buehrle - Peavy: upgrade
Danks - Buehrle: slight upgrade
Floyd - Danks: upgrade
Contreras - Floyd: huge upgrade
Colon - Garcia/Hudson: ?? Even, I suppose



Relief pitching
Slight upgrade with Putz addition, though Carrasco will be missed.



Hitters and Defense combined
C- same
1B- same
2B- significant upgrade
3B- slight upgrade
SS- slight upgrade (he will improve, IMO)
LF- significant upgrade
CF- significant upgrade
RF- significant upgrade (TCQ over Dye)



DH- As of now, slight downgrade, given that TCQ, Quentin, Kotsay, and Jones will share ABs (no, I don't think Vizquel will get enough ABs at DH to worry about it).

Bench- upgrade



So IMO, the vast majority of the roster has been upgraded. I'm curious as to why you think the 2009 roster is no better than equal to the 2009 edition.

dickallen15
01-27-2010, 11:30 AM
Let's see, here's my take on it...

2009 - 2010

Starting pitching
Buehrle - Peavy: upgrade
Danks - Buehrle: slight upgrade
Floyd - Danks: upgrade
Contreras - Floyd: huge upgrade
Colon - Garcia/Hudson: ?? Even, I suppose



Relief pitching
Slight upgrade with Putz addition, though Carrasco will be missed.



Hitters and Defense combined
C- same
1B- same
2B- significant upgrade
3B- slight upgrade
SS- slight upgrade (he will improve, IMO)
LF- significant upgrade
CF- significant upgrade
RF- significant upgrade (TCQ over Dye)



DH- As of now, slight downgrade, given that TCQ, Quentin, Kotsay, and Jones will share ABs (no, I don't think Vizquel will get enough ABs at DH to worry about it).

Bench- upgrade



So IMO, the vast majority of the roster has been upgraded. I'm curious as to why you think the 2009 roster is no better than equal to the 2009 edition.

Teahan is a slight upgrade over Beckham at 3b? Pierre is a significant upgrade over the 2009 edition of Pods or Quentin? Rios is a significant upgrade over Rios? Putz, a guy who still is not 100% is already an upgrade over Dotel? The team may well be better than last year. Peavy alone probably does that. We all hope it is. I hope they make another move or two myself. Another quality bat and I will agree the team has definitely improved significantly. Of course it must improve significantly.

asindc
01-27-2010, 11:34 AM
Teahan is a slight upgrade over Beckham at 3b? Pierre is a significant upgrade over the 2009 edition of Pods or Quentin? Rios is a significant upgrade over Rios? Putz, a guy who still is not 100% is already an upgrade over Dotel? The team may well be better than last year. Peavy alone probably does that. We all hope it is. I hope they make another move or two myself. Another quality bat and I will agree the team has definitely improved significantly. Of course it must improve significantly.

Teahan is a slight upgrade over Fields.

Pierre is a signficiant upgrade over Pods.

Rios is a signficant upgrade over Wise/Anderson.

Putz is an upgrade over the number of guys we had to shuttle through the bullpen (i.e., MacDougal).

dickallen15
01-27-2010, 11:39 AM
Teahan is a slight upgrade over Fields.

Pierre is a signficiant upgrade over Pods.

Rios is a signficant upgrade over Wise/Anderson.

Putz is an upgrade over the number of guys we had to shuttle through the bullpen (i.e., MacDougal).

Fields hardly played. Beckham was the Sox 3B most of the year.

Pierre will be hardpressed to match Pods 2009 numbers.

Rios is an upgrade over Wise/Anderson, unless he plays like last year.

Putz is still a question mark. I like the signing, but Cooper said he's not healthy yet. He could be huge.

DirtySox
01-27-2010, 11:49 AM
Fields hardly played. Beckham was the Sox 3B most of the year.

Pierre will be hardpressed to match Pods 2009 numbers.

Rios is an upgrade over Wise/Anderson, unless he plays like last year.

Putz is still a question mark. I like the signing, but Cooper said he's not healthy yet. He could be huge.

Agree with all of this, but where did Cooper say Putz isn't healthy? I thought I read the exact opposite.

dickallen15
01-27-2010, 11:52 AM
Agree with all of this, but where did Cooper say Putz isn't healthy? I thought I read the exact opposite.
At Soxfest he said he's not ready to pitch yet. Maybe not healthy was a bad term to use. I should have used not 100% or not fully recovered from his surgery as of yet.

Craig Grebeck
01-27-2010, 12:17 PM
Can you? None of them are 40, and Jones has actually been trending up.
No, he's not. He had a good first half of the year and then fell hard enough to make Jermaine Dye blush.

thomas35forever
01-27-2010, 02:39 PM
Buster Olney just reported Winn's signing with the Yankees pending a physical.

asindc
01-27-2010, 02:42 PM
Buster Olney just reported Winn's signing with the Yankees pending a physical.

That might preclude all Damon to NYY talk and maybe further depresss the market for him.

psyclonis
01-27-2010, 02:44 PM
if the Yanks got him for just $2M, the market for Damon has to be horrible. Hopefully KW sees this. :smile:

tstrike2000
01-27-2010, 02:49 PM
Buster Olney just reported Winn's signing with the Yankees pending a physical.

Good because getting him would not be a Winn win situation for the Sox.

thedudeabides
01-27-2010, 02:51 PM
Was there ever any confirmed interest from the Sox, or was this just some random radio blurb from SF that only Rockabilly heard?

kittle42
01-27-2010, 03:03 PM
Was there ever any confirmed interest from the Sox, or was this just some random radio blurb from SF that only Rockabilly heard?

I doubt it ever occurred.

Craig Grebeck
01-27-2010, 03:04 PM
I doubt it ever occurred.
Same here.

Well, come our way Johnny. I will welcome you with open arms.

thedudeabides
01-27-2010, 03:12 PM
Same here.

Well, come our way Johnny. I will welcome you with open arms.

It has to increase the Sox chances, it they are in fact interested. I could still see the Braves, A's, and Tigers becoming interested again at a reduced price. If the Yankees are in fact eliminated it's like the bidding has just been reset.

DirtySox
01-27-2010, 03:12 PM
It has to increase the Sox chances, it they are in fact interested. I could still see the Braves, A's, and Tigers becoming interested again at a reduced price. If the Yankees are in fact eliminated it's like the bidding has just been reset.

That article you posted earlier said that Boras is trying to get the Tigers and Reds interested.

Craig Grebeck
01-27-2010, 03:14 PM
It has to increase the Sox chances, it they are in fact interested. I could still see the Braves, A's, and Tigers becoming interested again at a reduced price. If the Yankees are in fact eliminated it's like the bidding has just been reset.
I think the A's are satisfied with Ryan Sweeney, which seems odd, but a glance at his statistics shows a good deal of potential (especially when his stellar defense is considered).

I would love, love, love Damon.

thedudeabides
01-27-2010, 03:18 PM
That article you posted earlier said that Boras is trying to get the Tigers and Reds interested.

I forgot about the Reds. There is really no telling what that team will do. I guess they have been interested in Orlando Cabrera, but don't think they can afford him. I can't imagine he's more expensive than Damon. Also, him playing in the NL is quite risky at this point. I can't see him starting 140-150 games in the outfield.

asindc
01-27-2010, 03:26 PM
That article you posted earlier said that Boras is trying to get the Tigers and Reds interested.

I don't see the Tigers getting seriously involved, and even if they do I doubt that they would want to outbid the Sox for him.

Jrbear98
01-27-2010, 03:35 PM
Randy Winn Sign's with Yanks;

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/comments/sources-yankees-winn-agree-to-deal-322067.html

#1swisher
01-27-2010, 04:13 PM
Randy Winn Sign's with Yanks;

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/comments/sources-yankees-winn-agree-to-deal-322067.html


Believed to be in the $2 million range.


http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/yankeesblog/yankees_sign_randy_winn_damon_likely_Ylk6Yx1X7Bvm7 rfe1wlxkI

kittle42
01-27-2010, 04:15 PM
Randy Winn Sign's with Yanks

Worse call than the Yankees signing Winn.

russ99
01-27-2010, 05:52 PM
Hm, Damon could now be a possibility, but would Boras diminish the chances of one client (Jones) over another in Damon?

DickAllen72
01-27-2010, 05:55 PM
Hm, Damon could now be a possibility, but would Boras diminish the chances of one client (Jones) over another in Damon?
Reports now are that Tampa Bay is ready to offer him $7M to be their full time DH. If true, I doubt JR beats that. Better sell the farm for Adrian Gonzalez.

cards press box
01-27-2010, 06:10 PM
Reports now are that Tampa Bay is ready to offer him $7M to be their full time DH. If true, I doubt JR beats that.

I doubt that is true. I can't imagine Tampa Bay paying Damon $7 million when they are already on the hook to pay DH Pat Burrell $9 million this year.

I think the A's are satisfied with Ryan Sweeney, which seems odd, but a glance at his statistics shows a good deal of potential (especially when his stellar defense is considered).

I would love, love, love Damon.

I agree that Damon would be an excellent DH/LF for the Sox and, with the Yankees signing Randy Winn today, the Damon market appears to be totally collapsing. The Sox' chances of getting Damon on their terms went up dramatically today.

Nellie_Fox
01-28-2010, 12:15 AM
There's now a thread about Winn signing with the Yankees, so this one has outlived its purpose.