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DirtySox
01-22-2010, 09:59 PM
Sources say 50/50 chance.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2010/01/thome_coming_back_to_the_sox_s.html

gosox41
01-22-2010, 10:02 PM
Sources say 50/50 chance.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2010/01/thome_coming_back_to_the_sox_s.html

Bob

DirtySox
01-22-2010, 10:05 PM
It sounds like Kenny is finally stepping in despite Ozzie's wishes.

JermaineDye05
01-22-2010, 10:06 PM
Smoke screen to keep Kenny alive during Soxfest.

JohnnyInnsbrook
01-22-2010, 10:11 PM
Smoke screen to keep Kenny alive during Soxfest.

Agreed

LoveYourSuit
01-22-2010, 10:26 PM
I think the whole Twins thing is woke up the front office.

Noneck
01-22-2010, 10:39 PM
First of all, I don't like Cowley as a beat reporter and don't believe too much of what he says. So I just hope his comment about getting Thome on the cheap isn't true. At this stage of the off season everyone out there on the market is on the cheap. I just hope if they really want Thome they don't humiliate the guy so he goes elsewhere because of chump change.

hi im skot
01-22-2010, 10:40 PM
I think the whole Twins thing is woke up the front office.

Sure hope so.

Frontman
01-22-2010, 10:43 PM
I wouldn't have a problem with Mr. Incredible being back on the Southside.

DirtySox
01-22-2010, 10:47 PM
I wouldn't have a problem with Mr. Incredible being back on the Southside.

It would probably double the amount of Sox games I attend this year. It would make this team so much better.

MarkZ35
01-22-2010, 10:50 PM
My first thought today when I heard that the Twins were interested in Thome is that they are trying to raise the price so he doesn't return to the Sox or that they want the Sox to spend more money on him. The plan seems to be working out well so far if that is the plan.

oeo
01-22-2010, 10:52 PM
It sounds like Kenny is finally stepping in despite Ozzie's wishes.

:lol: You post this crap in every one of your threads.

Kenny didn't have to sign Andruw Jones. There currently isn't even room on the roster because of Andruw Jones. I don't think Sox or Twins comes true.

Viva Medias B's
01-22-2010, 11:07 PM
If Thome comes back, nice. If not, no big deal.

WhiteSox1989
01-22-2010, 11:14 PM
I wouldn't mind this.

soxinem1
01-22-2010, 11:50 PM
Honestly, if Damon's price drops to $5-6 million I'd rather have him.

But if JT signs for a couple million, why not?

chisoxfanatic
01-22-2010, 11:52 PM
He's definitely welcome back as far as I am concerned. Does anyone think he'd take $1 - $1.5m for a year?

DirtySox
01-22-2010, 11:52 PM
Honestly, if Damon's price drops to $5-6 million I'd rather have him.

But if JT signs for a couple million, why not?

I wouldn't mind Damon either. If he is part of the DH rotation, I like the idea then. Heyman said on Hot Stove today that he's back talking with the Yankees though. Supposedly the only have 2 million left to spend, but Heyman thinks they will spend a bit more if Damon comes down a bit.

thomas35forever
01-23-2010, 12:09 AM
I say sign him for the sake of the sanity of some posters on here.

JermaineDye05
01-23-2010, 12:19 AM
I say sign him for the sake of the sanity of some posters on here.

I'd rather they go insane and have the sox trade for A-Gone but I don't see that happening.

NLaloosh
01-23-2010, 07:38 AM
I say sign him for the sake of the sanity of some posters on here.

I agree. I can't see how it would make much difference. I can't see how Jones and Kotsay could produce that much less especially after factoring in the added defense, speed and small ball skills they would contribute over Thome.

However, even if they did, the Sox could add a big hitter by the AS break. It's not a big deal. And, maybe by then something really good will have developed.

Johnny Damon would be an even better option. However, there's no way that he's coming to the Sox. They would have to outbid every other team including the Yankees which is where he really wants to play. Besides, the Sox don't have the dough for that and the Boras factor precludes it anyway.

Craig Grebeck
01-23-2010, 09:02 AM
I agree. I can't see how it would make much difference. I can't see how Jones and Kotsay could produce that much less especially after factoring in the added defense, speed and small ball skills they would contribute over Thome.

However, even if they did, the Sox could add a big hitter by the AS break. It's not a big deal. And, maybe by then something really good will have developed.

Johnny Damon would be an even better option. However, there's no way that he's coming to the Sox. They would have to outbid every other team including the Yankees which is where he really wants to play. Besides, the Sox don't have the dough for that and the Boras factor precludes it anyway.
Elaborate on each of these. I'd be surprised if Jones is a better baserunner than Jim.

cws05champ
01-23-2010, 09:05 AM
Not only does Thome add protection or safety net, but he won't command to play 150-160 games. If he is the DH for 90-100 games I think it would be a perfect fit.

russ99
01-23-2010, 09:17 AM
Honestly, if Damon's price drops to $5-6 million I'd rather have him.

But if JT signs for a couple million, why not?

We're at $103M, there's no way Jerry OK's to add 5-6 more for a marginal player like Damon, who the Yankees would surely offer 6-7.

I prefer Branyan at $2-3M if we're going to add a player.

IMO - the Thome ship has sailed and trying to outbid someone for a rapidly declining 40 year old to save face smacks of bad managing.

soxinem1
01-23-2010, 09:18 AM
Not only does Thome add protection or safety net, but he won't command to play 150-160 games. If he is the DH for 90-100 games I think it would be a perfect fit.

That plan might actually make him more productive in the long run.http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/icons/icon14.gif

We're at $103M, there's no way Jerry OK's to add 5-6 more for a marginal player like Damon.

I prefer Branyan at $2-3M if we're going to add a player.

I like Branyan too, but Damon is not marginal. 20-25 HR, 75-85 RBI, a good average, OBP, speed from the DH spot, and the ability to still play the OF would make him fit nicely in the #2 spot.

That would put Beckham further down in the order and change this lineup to one of fear. We would have a productive and one of the most versatile batting orders in MLB.

I could see a 200HR, 150 SB team.

russ99
01-23-2010, 09:30 AM
That plan might actually make him more productive in the long run.http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/images/icons/icon14.gif



I like Branyan too, but Damon is not marginal. 20-25 HR, 75-85 RBI, a good average, OBP, speed from the DH spot, and the ability to still play the OF would make him fit nicely in the #2 spot.

That would put Beckham further down in the order and change this lineup to one of fear. We would have a productive and one of the most versatile batting orders in MLB.

I could see a 200HR, 150 SB team.
He's not a marginal player, numbers wise, but I don't think he falls into the kind of guy who would have such an impact that Jerry would blow up the budget for, like A. Gonzalez.

Besides, Rios is hitting #2, Beckham #3. If we add a player he'll be batting at 6 or 7.

soxinem1
01-23-2010, 09:42 AM
He's not a marginal player, numbers wise, but I don't think he falls into the kind of guy who would have such an impact that Jerry would blow up the budget for, like A. Gonzalez.

Besides, Rios is hitting #2, Beckham #3. If we add a player he'll be batting at 6 or 7.

Adding a $12-15 million a year player is blowing up the budget, not $5-6 million.

And if Damon were to join the White Sox, it would not be as a #7 hitter. He would be near the top. Rios could move to the seven spot. I'm not sure a low OBP, high K guy in 32 helps us much.

stevemcstud
01-23-2010, 09:44 AM
He's not a marginal player, numbers wise, but I don't think he falls into the kind of guy who would have such an impact that Jerry would blow up the budget for, like A. Gonzalez.

Besides, Rios is hitting #2, Beckham #3. If we add a player he'll be batting at 6 or 7.

Beckham hitting third? I admit we do not have many other options here but I would rather see Quentin hitting third than Beckham. Something like this:

1. Pierre
2. Beckham
3. Quentin
4. Konerko
5. Rios
6. A.J.
7. Alexei
8. Teahen
9. DH

Of course if we sign Thome he gets slotted in at the 4 spot with RH pitchers.

dickallen15
01-23-2010, 09:44 AM
We're at $103M, there's no way Jerry OK's to add 5-6 more for a marginal player like Damon, who the Yankees would surely offer 6-7.

I prefer Branyan at $2-3M if we're going to add a player.

IMO - the Thome ship has sailed and trying to outbid someone for a rapidly declining 40 year old to save face smacks of bad managing.

Its not outbidding anyone for Thome. He wants to play for the Sox and allegedly would be willing to play for $1 million. If you like Branyan, I don't understand how you couldn't love Thome. Branyan has had one good season. When he was 33. It was comparable to Thome's season last year. He also couldn't finish the season because of a back problem. If you think Branyan at $2-3 million is a good idea, but Damon at $5-6 million is blowing the budget, that also doesn't make sense to me. Then consider Reinsdorf said there is money available to add an established player, I don't know where you get the Sox budgetary limits from.

Frater Perdurabo
01-23-2010, 09:58 AM
For $1 million Thome is a no-brainer.

asindc
01-23-2010, 10:24 AM
Elaborate on each of these. I'd be surprised if Jones is a better baserunner than Jim.

Then you would be in a small, distinct minority. Yes, Thome was/is a smart baserunner, but Jones has never been a slouch at baserunning and is significantly faster on top of that. While Thome often had no hope of scoring from 2nd on a single to LF, Jones has not been nearly as challenged. This is even more true if Jones has lost the weight that has been reported and is in better shape than the last three years. Even if he is not, he has still been a better baserunner than Thome, whether you prefer Thome as the DH or not.

Rocky Soprano
01-23-2010, 10:33 AM
Per, Inside The Sox, Scott Reifert's Twitter:


Ken: Thome not a fit on '10 team unless Ozzie says, but he'll always be part of Sox family.

Craig Grebeck
01-23-2010, 10:43 AM
Then you would be in a small, distinct minority. Yes, Thome was/is a smart baserunner, but Jones has never been a slouch at baserunning and is significantly faster on top of that. While Thome often had no hope of scoring from 2nd on a single to LF, Jones has not been nearly as challenged. This is even more true if Jones has lost the weight that has been reported and is in better shape than the last three years. Even if he is not, he has still been a better baserunner than Thome, whether you prefer Thome as the DH or not.
I have no reason to believe the blurb that was in that SI article. Heyman and Boras must hang out from time to time.

Craig Grebeck
01-23-2010, 10:48 AM
Per, Inside The Sox, Scott Reifert's Twitter:
This season, should it go down the tubes, is 100% on Ozzie.

asindc
01-23-2010, 10:51 AM
I have no reason to believe the blurb that was in that SI article. Heyman and Boras must hang out from time to time.

Like I said, even if Jones is not in better shape than he has been the past 3-4 years, he has been and likely still is a better baserunner than Thome.

Craig Grebeck
01-23-2010, 11:01 AM
Like I said, even if Jones is not in better shape than he has been the past 3-4 years, he has been and likely still is a better baserunner than Thome.
What makes you say that though? Thome is a damn good baserunner.

russ99
01-23-2010, 11:11 AM
This season, should it go down the tubes, is 100% on Ozzie.

The entire season hinges on Thome's .240 bat?

I love the guy, but he just can't play at the level some of you expect anymore.

Sad to say, if given the same number of at bats, Andruw Jones could be more productive.

asindc
01-23-2010, 11:11 AM
What makes you say that though? Thome is a damn good baserunner.

Yes, as I said, Thome was/is a good baserunner, but Jones has been and likely still is a better baserunner.

doublem23
01-23-2010, 11:13 AM
Yes, as I said, Thome was/is a good baserunner, but Jones has been and likely still is a better baserunner.

Yeah, but Andruw Jones never gets on base. OBP under .300 over his past two injury-plagued years.

asindc
01-23-2010, 11:33 AM
Yeah, but Andruw Jones never gets on base. OBP under .300 over his past two injury-plagued years.

I agree with this statement. My point is merely about Jones' superior baserunning skills over Thome's. They both run the bases well, but Jones is just better at it. If someone thinks Thome would be a better DH than Jones for other reasons, I have no argument about that. I think it should be noted, however, that KW's and Ozzie's desire to get away from station-to-station baseball might have led KW to sign Jones on the cheap rather than re-sign Thome (right away, at least).

If that is the motivation, then Jones does make more sense, despite the lower OBP. True, Thome has proven that he is better at getting on base than Jones, but will we score more runs? I think that is a legitimate question to ask since we often needed 3 hits to score Thome from 1st. Everyone, Sox management, players, and fans, have shared the frustration of the last three seasons of that kind of baseball. I think the Jones signing, despite his lower OBP, is an attempt to rectify that. You might think that there were better options available for the money (or close to it), but based on base running skills Thome is not a better option. Based on other skills, I think someone has legitimate argument, though.

DirtySox
01-23-2010, 11:35 AM
Oz on Thome: "we have to make a decision on him before I leave for Miami." That's tomorrow.

http://twitter.com/cst_sox/status/8115649529

Hitmen77
01-23-2010, 11:46 AM
For $1 million Thome is a no-brainer.

I agree. Last year the Sox were able to spend $1 million on a washed up Colon. If Thome can be signed for $1 million, then I doubt it's a money issue.

Per, Inside The Sox, Scott Reifert's Twitter:

Ken: Thome not a fit on '10 team unless Ozzie says, but he'll always be part of Sox family.

Too bad Ozzie's "plan" for 2010 is to have bench-caliber players fill our DH spot (rotated with the starting OFs).

If we had at least an average offensive producer on the roster who could rotate among the starting OFs, then I could see Ozzie's point. But to say that we don't want a DH anymore - even to the point of just starting bench players every day, that's crazy. Maybe Ozzie should just ask Selig to move the Sox NL Central.

....I guess we'll just have to hope that Andruw Jones suddenly reverts back to his 4 years ago form.

Shoeless
01-23-2010, 12:12 PM
I agree. Last year the Sox were able to spend $1 million on a washed up Colon. If Thome can be signed for $1 million, then I doubt it's a money issue.



Too bad Ozzie's "plan" for 2010 is to have bench-caliber players fill our DH spot (rotated with the starting OFs).

If we had at least an average offensive producer on the roster who could rotate among the starting OFs, then I could see Ozzie's point. But to say that we don't want a DH anymore - even to the point of just starting bench players every day, that's crazy. Maybe Ozzie should just ask Selig to move the Sox NL Central.

....I guess we'll just have to hope that Andruw Jones suddenly reverts back to his 4 years ago form.

Cowley says Sox will make a decision by tomorrow. Does that mean there is a chance? Seems to go against everything that has been said by Ozzie about the "Rotating DH"

Craig Grebeck
01-23-2010, 12:19 PM
Sad to say, if given the same number of at bats, Andruw Jones could be more productive.
Come on! Back this up, please. It is simply untrue. All evidence points to Thome being the far, far superior hitter.

DirtySox
01-23-2010, 12:25 PM
Come on! Back this up, please. It is simply untrue. All evidence points to Thome being the far, far superior hitter.

I'm amused at everyone saying Thome is done and washed up despite putting up a 865 OPS with the Sox last year. The highest on the team.

doublem23
01-23-2010, 12:28 PM
The entire season hinges on Thome's .240 bat?

I love the guy, but he just can't play at the level some of you expect anymore.

Sad to say, if given the same number of at bats, Andruw Jones could be more productive.

I mean, Andruw Jones could be more productive, but I doubt that's a bet anyone would like to take.

Craig Grebeck
01-23-2010, 12:28 PM
I'm amused at everyone saying Thome is done and washed up despite putting up a 865 OPS with the Sox last year. The highest on the team.
I would like a .262/.383/.498 line from the heavy side of a platoon, personally. That would look very nice. Even if those numbers were scaled back to .250/.370/.480 it would still be far, far better than the **** Kotsay would put up.

A. Cavatica
01-23-2010, 12:28 PM
I wish they could get something from Ozzie saying he'd resign if the rotating DH rotation of Jones, Kotsay, and Vizquel didn't work out...the worst part of Ozzie winning this issue will be the lack of accountability when the Sox have the worst DH production in the league.

Craig Grebeck
01-23-2010, 12:29 PM
I mean, Andruw Jones could be more productive, but I doubt that's a bet anyone would like to take.
I would take Thome and give a Jones supporter 2-1 odds.

Daver
01-23-2010, 12:33 PM
I wish they could get something from Ozzie saying he'd resign if the rotating DH rotation of Jones, Kotsay, and Vizquel didn't work out...the worst part of Ozzie winning this issue will be the lack of accountability when the Sox have the worst DH production in the league.


People will blame Greg Walker.

Craig Grebeck
01-23-2010, 12:36 PM
People will blame Greg Walker.
And it will be funny. I can't believe Walker can't fix Jones or Kotsay or Vizquel!

tick53
01-23-2010, 01:37 PM
No offense to Thome but as far as I'm concerned, he can get his 600th HR somewhere else, if he can even reach that milestone at this point in his career. I like the new direction of the team. He's slow on the paths and can only do one thing and that's DH. I don't want to see Jim Thome take up a roster spot. Teams are supposed to improve every season. If Thome comes back as every day DH, it will be the same old story. If he comes back in a limited roll, then he's taking up space. I would rather have another shot at a World Series than see a hitter enter the 600 Club. Achieving that is no big deal to me.

He's a great guy and I wish him the best.

Rockabilly
01-23-2010, 01:43 PM
I would rather see the Sox make a trade for a left handed OF with speed and great contact and make Q our DH

MISoxfan
01-23-2010, 02:05 PM
No offense to Thome but as far as I'm concerned, he can get his 600th HR somewhere else, if he can even reach that milestone at this point in his career. I like the new direction of the team. He's slow on the paths and can only do one thing and that's DH. I don't want to see Jim Thome take up a roster spot. Teams are supposed to improve every season. If Thome comes back as every day DH, it will be the same old story. If he comes back in a limited roll, then he's taking up space. I would rather have another shot at a World Series than see a hitter enter the 600 Club. Achieving that is no big deal to me.

He's a great guy and I wish him the best.

Teams can't improve in every single position every single season. Jim Thome's same old story at DH is a pretty good story. We're not improving at DH by going with what we've got, we're regressing.

TomBradley72
01-23-2010, 02:15 PM
If we go with 11 pitchers, I can see a spot for Thome...if we go with 12...then we lose an extra IF or OF, which I don't like:

Pitching-Starters


Jake Peavy
Mark Buehrle
Gavin Floyd
John Danks
Freddie Garcia
Pitching-Bullpen


Bobby Jenks
JJ Putz
Scott Linebrink
Matt Thornton
Tony Pena
LOOGY -TBD
Infielders


Paul Konerko
Mark Teahan
Alexei Ramirez
Gordon Beckham
Omar Vizquel
TBD
Designated Hitter


Jim Thome
Catchers:

A.J. Pierzynski
Roberto Castro
Outfielders:

Carlos Quentin
Alex Rios
Juan Pierre
Mark Kotsay
Andruw Jones

soxinem1
01-23-2010, 02:15 PM
The one thing that stands out in the batting order right now is the lack of LH power, which would likely be a middle of the line-up hitter if he was not the quickest guy on the bases. Those current feasable FA options are:

1. Thome
2. Branyan
3. Blalock
4. Delgado
5. Damon

Except Damon, all are injury risks, all are best suited to the DH spot, and all K a lot. And Branyan was never an every day player until last season.

If Guillen wants a rotating DH that is okay, but against RHP this lineup is lacking big time without another LH run producer.

Damon brings the best option of rotating a player, and one thing the others do not: speed. With a real team-wide running game, he could swipe 25 bases, and the team can swipe at least 150 if everyone does their part.

At the same token, Damon's OBP is pretty strong. Plus, he will easilly score from second on singles, and first on doubles and triples.

Damon also brings depth in case of an injury or replacing a non-producer. Damon in LF or CF in a pinch is not a bad option to have, even if he DH'd 75% of the time, ala Julio Franco on the 1994 White Sox, who also played some 1B when Frank Thomas was not there.

But if they determine that Damon is out of their range $$$$ wise, then you have to believe that the best option is Thome. Having him in the lineup as a DH against most RHP (except those few flamethrowers he has no chance against anymore, be they LH or RH) will protect this lineup way more than Kotsay, Nix, Vizquel (:scratch:), and the others being mentioned.

Ozzie and KW need to realize that they are hampering this lineup and the pitching staff without filling this role properly, and get over this silly idea that they can compete with the lineup as it stands.

soltrain21
01-23-2010, 02:16 PM
I'd rather see this team go with 11 pitchers and sign Thome than go with 12 pitchers. How often do we use that 12th pitcher? Not very often. Especially with our innings eaters this year.

DirtySox
01-23-2010, 02:24 PM
Ozzie on Thome: "The only reason that hold me up with our conversation about Jimmy is I donít know how many at-bats we can give him. itís not fair for Jim or the ballclub to go with that."

http://twitter.com/scottmerkin/status/8120610408

soltrain21
01-23-2010, 02:27 PM
http://twitter.com/scottmerkin/status/8120610408

Doesn't make any sense. I understand platooning the DH with Jones/Thome if you REALLY want. But I picture Kotsay and Vizquel will be playing enough on the field to warrant giving Thome a lot of at-bats at DH.

soxinem1
01-23-2010, 02:33 PM
Doesn't make any sense. I understand platooning the DH with Jones/Thome if you REALLY want. But I picture Kotsay and Vizquel will be playing enough on the field to warrant giving Thome a lot of at-bats at DH.

I agree. Does Ozzie plan on every player on the team having no more than 350 AB's??:scratch:

guillen4life13
01-23-2010, 02:46 PM
If we go with 11 pitchers, I can see a spot for Thome...if we go with 12...then we lose an extra IF or OF, which I don't like:

Pitching-Starters


Jake Peavy
Mark Buehrle
Gavin Floyd
John Danks
Freddie Garcia

Pitching-Bullpen


Bobby Jenks
JJ Putz
Scott Linebrink
Matt Thornton
Tony Pena
LOOGY -TBD

Infielders


Paul Konerko
Mark Teahan
Alexei Ramirez
Gordon Beckham
Omar Vizquel
TBD

Designated Hitter


Jim Thome

Catchers:

A.J. Pierzynski
Roberto Castro

Outfielders:

Carlos Quentin
Alex Rios
Juan Pierre
Mark Kotsay
Andruw Jones



Who are these people?

Dibbs
01-23-2010, 02:57 PM
It sounds like Ozzie is the general manager and not Kenny. I am really starting to lose faith in their decision making capabilities these last few years. However, I think they will do the right thing and bring Jim back, or some other regular DH who can actually hit the ball effectively.

getonbckthr
01-23-2010, 03:19 PM
I'm picturing more of a depth chart instead of roster. I think we can get away with 13 Hitters/12 pitchers and have Thome:

C- AJ, Castro
1B- Konerko, Kotsay
2B- Beckham, Vizquel
SS- Ramirez, Vizquel
3B- Teahen, Vizquel
LF- Pierre, Jones
CF- Rios, Jones
RF- Quentin, Jones
DH- Thome/Jones, Kotsay
SP- Peavy, Buerhle, Floyd, Danks, Garcia
CL- Jenks
LHRP- Thornton, Williams
RHRP- Pena, Linebrink, Putz
Long relief/blowouts- Marquez?

Rdy2PlayBall
01-23-2010, 03:32 PM
I'm picturing more of a depth chart instead of roster. I think we can get away with 13 Hitters/12 pitchers and have Thome:

C- AJ, Castro
1B- Konerko, Kotsay
2B- Beckham, Vizquel
SS- Ramirez, Vizquel
3B- Teahen, Vizquel
LF- Pierre, Jones
CF- Rios, Jones
RF- Quentin, Jones
DH- Thome/Jones, Kotsay
SP- Peavy, Buerhle, Floyd, Danks, Garcia
CL- Jenks
LHRP- Thornton, Williams
RHRP- Pena, Linebrink, Putz
Long relief/blowouts- Marquez?Lol, not for a while. Haha. :lol:

Baron
01-23-2010, 03:36 PM
Come on Ozzie please bring Jim back pleassseeeee

A. Cavatica
01-23-2010, 03:44 PM
Long relief/blowouts- Marquez?

Marquez has no business being on the roster. He can only pitch in blowouts that are so big that you might as well have Thome pitch.

JermaineDye05
01-23-2010, 04:18 PM
Marquez has no business being on the roster. He can only pitch in blowouts that are so big that you might as well have Thome pitch.

I wouldn't write him off until we see how he performs in Charlotte this year. He could be terrible again or he could go back to being fairly decent.

asindc
01-23-2010, 04:31 PM
It sounds like Ozzie is the general manager and not Kenny. I am really starting to lose faith in their decision making capabilities these last few years. However, I think they will do the right thing and bring Jim back, or some other regular DH who can actually hit the ball effectively.

Really?

Peavy
Floyd
Danks
Alexei
TCQ
Pierre
Beckham

None of those deals/moves sustain your faith? KW and Ozzie have made plenty of mistakes, IMO, in the past few years (waiting too long to start process of getting farm system in shape, Fields, not addressing leadoff position for far too long, defensive alignments are some examples), but they still have done plenty that makes me think 2005 and 2008 were not flukes.

I don't know if Thome is the right move, but I don't think a platoon of Jones/Kotsay is the right move, either (I really don't think Ozzie will give Vizquel a significant number of ABs at DH, just an occasional start there). I would prefer Delgado or Blalock if health is not a major concern.

Dibbs
01-23-2010, 05:06 PM
Really?

Peavy
Floyd
Danks
Alexei
TCQ
Pierre
Beckham

None of those deals/moves sustain your faith? KW and Ozzie have made plenty of mistakes, IMO, in the past few years (waiting too long to start process of getting farm system in shape, Fields, not addressing leadoff position for far too long, defensive alignments are some examples), but they still have done plenty that makes me think 2005 and 2008 were not flukes.

I don't know if Thome is the right move, but I don't think a platoon of Jones/Kotsay is the right move, either (I really don't think Ozzie will give Vizquel a significant number of ABs at DH, just an occasional start there). I would prefer Delgado or Blalock if health is not a major concern.

So we have some good players. Doesn't every team? That makes it an even harder pill to swallow. You have this great starting pitching, and then you think Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones are going to DH? Not to mention all of the names on that list you provided still have a lot to prove.

Yes, I am losing a little faith in Kenny and Ozzie. Last year we started the year with Colon and Contreras as our 4th and 5th starter. That is throwing away a season in my book. We also had Betemet & Lillibridge amongst other bums on our opening day 2009 roster. Most of your post lists mistakes made by Ozzie and Kenny and you seem to have a different DH view than Ozzie as well. Maybe you are losing a little faith too, but haven't come to terms with that yet.

asindc
01-23-2010, 05:34 PM
So we have some good players. Doesn't every team? That makes it an even harder pill to swallow. You have this great starting pitching, and then you think Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones are going to DH? Not to mention all of the names on that list you provided still have a lot to prove.

Yes, I am losing a little faith in Kenny and Ozzie. Last year we started the year with Colon and Contreras as our 4th and 5th starter. That is throwing away a season in my book. We also had Betemet & Lillibridge amongst other bums on our opening day 2009 roster. Most of your post lists mistakes made by Ozzie and Kenny and you seem to have a different DH view than Ozzie as well. Maybe you are losing a little faith too, but haven't come to terms with that yet.

Not at all. I note that there are some moves that I disagreed just to point out that I don't think KW and Ozzie are infallible. Just like every team has good players, every team has some hard choices to make in filling out the roster. Financial concerns must be taken into account by every team not based in the NY media market. I know some fans don't like to think about those things, but when evaluating a GMs job, I think it is short-sighted to pretend that it doesn't matter. Not accusing you of such, just noting that while I didn't agree with the moves/lack of moves mentioned, none of those moves, with the possible exception of the leadoff position, can be attributed to financial considerations.

So as you mention Betemit, Lillibridge, Contreras, and Colon, please explain who KW should have signed/played instead of those players, and how much you think it would have cost to bring in their replacements. Or do you really think that KW looked around, saw other players that could be signed for the same money, and then decided that Betemit, Lillibridge, and Colon were better than the other players? (Contreras was under contract, so the only move that could have been made with him was to pay him $12 million (or whatever he made last year) not to pitch. I don't think the Sox are in a position to make that kind of decision.) Bottom line is that I have not lost faith because I don't think for a second that KW and Ozzie did not want better options on the team than Betemit, Lillibridge, Colon, Fields, and Wise. Having Thome's, Contreras', and Dye's money come off the books this year allowed KW to replace Betemit, Lillibridge, Colon, Fields, and Wise with better players. For instance:

Betemit, out---Kotsay, in.
Lillibridge, out---Vizquel, in.
Colon, out---Peavy, in.
Fields, out---Teahan, in.
Wise, out---Rios, in.

And, on a different level...

Pods, out---Pierre, in.

Those moves don't give me the impression that KW preferred the former players over better players. The moves indicate to me that as soon as it became financially viable, KW sought to replace the former players with better players. By the way, what AL team spent less than the Sox last year but assembled a more talented roster?

TheVulture
01-23-2010, 06:25 PM
I agree. Does Ozzie plan on every player on the team having no more than 350 AB's??:scratch:

If that were the case, that would leave the team about 1200-1500 ABs shy of the amount a team normally gets in a season, so I'd have to say no.

A. Cavatica
01-23-2010, 06:39 PM
I wouldn't write him off until we see how he performs in Charlotte this year. He could be terrible again or he could go back to being fairly decent.

He was "fairly decent" in AA ball in 2007 -- 15-9, 3.65 ERA, but allowing well over a hit an inning -- but he has never been even "fairly decent" in AAA, with a 4.69 ERA and a 1.45 WHIP in 2008. He does not have a major league future.

Baron
01-24-2010, 12:08 AM
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=3265646
:D: Bring him back please

JermaineDye05
01-24-2010, 12:55 AM
http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=3265646
:D: Bring him back please

I love Jimmy, but get this guy instead please. He's a much better fit.

(http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=6886157)Link (http://sandiego.padres.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=6886157)

Bobby Thigpen
01-24-2010, 01:28 AM
So we have some good players. Doesn't every team? That makes it an even harder pill to swallow. You have this great starting pitching, and then you think Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones are going to DH? Not to mention all of the names on that list you provided still have a lot to prove.
They do?

thedudeabides
01-24-2010, 10:01 AM
What makes you say that though? Thome is a damn good baserunner.

Can we please stop this Thome is an excellent baserunner talk now? Athletic ability plays a pretty good role in baserunning and Jim has none left. He may have good instincts and make good reads, but he is station to station. He cannot advance two bases any longer on any singles. He was thrown out a few times last year by 20 feet when I thought there wasn't a possibility of a play. He makes that turn and his back tightens, he's straight up and down, and it's like he's running in sand.

There are plenty of reasons to want him back, but making an argument for his baserunning is ridiculous.

NLaloosh
01-24-2010, 10:37 AM
There are plenty of reasons to want him back, but making an argument for his baserunning is ridiculous.

C. G. is just happy whenever he can make an argument of any kind. Don't let it get you excited.

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 10:38 AM
C. G. is just happy whenever he can make an argument of any kind. Don't let it get you excited.
And you're happy to duck out anytime I want to have a discussion about baseball.

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 10:38 AM
Can we please stop this Thome is an excellent baserunner talk now? Athletic ability plays a pretty good role in baserunning and Jim has none left. He may have good instincts and make good reads, but he is station to station. He cannot advance two bases any longer on any singles. He was thrown out a few times last year by 20 feet when I thought there wasn't a possibility of a play. He makes that turn and his back tightens, he's straight up and down, and it's like he's running in sand.

There are plenty of reasons to want him back, but making an argument for his baserunning is ridiculous.
Sorry I'm not bowled over by the argument that Andruw Jones is a superior athlete to anybody, at this point in his career.

thedudeabides
01-24-2010, 10:56 AM
Sorry I'm not bowled over by the argument that Andruw Jones is a superior athlete to anybody, at this point in his career.

I never said a word about Andruw Jones. I'm saying, at this point in this career, Thome is one of the biggest detriments in the league on the basepaths. Speed is not the end all be all when it comes to baserunning, but it certainly plays a major part, and at this point Thome may be the slowest runner in the league trying to advance two bases.

For the record, I'll be surprised if Andruw Jones is on the team come June, but he is still a much better baserunner than Thome, right now. Much better.

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 11:00 AM
I never said a word about Andruw Jones. I'm saying, at this point in this career, Thome is one of the biggest detriments in the league on the basepaths. Speed is not the end all be all when it comes to baserunning, but it certainly plays a major part, and at this point Thome may be the slowest runner in the league trying to advance two bases.

For the record, I'll be surprised if Andruw Jones is on the team come June, but he is still a much better baserunner than Thome, right now. Much better.
Well, agree to disagree. I'd rather have him on first base than Pods.

Thome25
01-24-2010, 11:07 AM
Well, agree to disagree. I'd rather have him on first base than Pods.

Are you serious? Did I read that right? I had to rub my eyes after reading this statement......To quote the principal from the Adam Sandler movie "Billy Madison":

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 11:22 AM
Are you serious? Did I read that right? I had to rub my eyes after reading this statement......To quote the principal from the Adam Sandler movie "Billy Madison":
Yes, I would rather have the smarter baserunner who is far less likely to waste an out on the basepaths. I'm not really sure what the disconnect is here.

102605
01-24-2010, 11:23 AM
Well, agree to disagree. I'd rather have him on first base than Pods.


:rolleyes:

Thome25
01-24-2010, 11:25 AM
Yes, I would rather have the smarter baserunner who is far less likely to waste an out on the basepaths. I'm not really sure what the disconnect is here.

So you'd rather have a baserunner who would always need three hits to score from first rather than a player who could stretch a single into a double by either out running the defender or stealing second?

Pods could also score in one or two hits rather than the almost automatic three it would require Thome to score.

soxinem1
01-24-2010, 11:28 AM
Well, agree to disagree. I'd rather have him on first base than Pods.

Thome has difficulty scoring on anything other than a HR, and even that takes forever. He even has problems scoring from 3B on a sac fly.

True, Pods is not the best baserunner, but he will score from 1B on a double, 2B on a single, and 3B on a sac fly.

I like JT as much as anyone, but reality is reality.

DirtySox
01-24-2010, 11:38 AM
No decision on Thome yet, but Ozzie has changed his flight to Miami to Monday.

Daver
01-24-2010, 11:42 AM
Well, agree to disagree. I'd rather have him on first base than Pods.


This is why I can't take anything you post seriously.

russ99
01-24-2010, 11:45 AM
No decision on Thome yet, but Ozzie has changed his flight to Miami to Monday.

I really wish they end this today.

It's a bad situation all around. Jim won't get even half the at-bats here as elsewhere, he'd take the roster spot of a guy who would be much more versatile, and worst yet we'd miss out in better additions just to curry favor rather than improving the club - while putting our manager on the spot all season...

For everyone's benefit this needs to end. Kenny can operate much better without this kind of spotlight.

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 12:25 PM
This is why I can't take anything you post seriously.
I don't see why this would preclude you and I from having meaningful discussions regarding pitching mechanics, defense, etc.

Perhaps I overvalue the importance of outs on the basepaths; I think you grossly overestimated BA's defensive prowess/potential, but I still will value what you say and we can have animated and enlightening discussions.

I apologize if I've somehow offended someone because of my beliefs regarding baserunning/Thome/Pods/etc. We can agree to disagree on this notion and move on: I'd rather we talk about the need for a DH and how this team can improve itself.

asindc
01-24-2010, 01:02 PM
I don't see why this would preclude you and I from having meaningful discussions regarding pitching mechanics, defense, etc.

Perhaps I overvalue the importance of outs on the basepaths; I think you grossly overestimated BA's defensive prowess/potential, but I still will value what you say and we can have animated and enlightening discussions.

I apologize if I've somehow offended someone because of my beliefs regarding baserunning/Thome/Pods/etc. We can agree to disagree on this notion and move on: I'd rather we talk about the need for a DH and how this team can improve itself.

CG, you don't seriously believe that if Thome and Pods have the same OBP that Thome will score more runs? Or that Thome can play a field position and run as well as Jones, even at this point? Man, I realize that you are advocating for Thome here, but your case is weakened by making such obviously asinine suggestions. Keep in mind we are talking about their baserunning skills and athleticism, not anything else. And yes, Jones has been more athletic than Thome his entire career, which means to expect anything different this year goes against all available evidence. Let the rest of us know when Thome can first-to-third it on a single to left/center nearly as well as Pods, or even play any position on the field, let alone competently like Jones.

You want Thome back. We get it. But if you want to sway the skeptical among us, you should leave the implausible arguments out of it.

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 01:10 PM
CG, you don't seriously believe that if Thome and Pods have the same OBP that Thome will score more runs? Or that Thome can play a field position and run as well as Jones, even at this point? Man, I realize that you are advocating for Thome here, but your case is weakened by making such an obviously asinine suggestions. Keep in mind we are talking about their baserunning skills and athleticism, not anything else. And yes, Jones has been more athletic than Thome his entire career, which means to expect anything different this year goes against all available evidence. Let the rest of us know when Thome can first-to-third it on a single to left/center nearly as well as Pods, or even play any position on the field, let alone competently like Jones.

You want Thome back. We get it. But if you want to sway the skeptical among us, you should leave the implausible arguments out of it.
1. Yes, I stated I would rather have Thome on base than Pods. I stand by that, but I see no purpose in advocating my case when no one will listen. I understand.
2. Never said that Thome could play a position in the field. Not sure where you're pulling that from.
3. Yes, I think Jones is a ****ty athlete. I don't think he's a bad fielder in the corners by any means, but I'm not sure what the guy does well at this point in his career other than that. He may hit left-handed pitching, which would make a Thome/Jones platoon possible.
4. Yes, I want Thome back. Here's my argument, summarized: Thome is the best available fit, given salary, ability, etc. He pounds right-handed pitching, he takes walks, and may be platooned at the position to stay fresh. He is not, and never will be, a worse option than the three-headed monster of bench-players that Ozzie has been advocating.

(And what would it matter regarding your first statement? Thome and Pods probably won't have the same OBP this year, or ever.)

Saufley
01-24-2010, 01:12 PM
Reported on the Score that Ozzie's flight home to Miami will now be on Monday and not today. More Thome talk??

thedudeabides
01-24-2010, 01:18 PM
Well, agree to disagree. I'd rather have him on first base than Pods.

If you truly believe this, I don't think you understand much about baserunning, or utilizing a players skillset.

Hypothetical; down by a run in the ninth, runner on first gets injured. Thome and Pods are the available replacements. Who do you pinch run?

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 01:20 PM
If you truly believe this, I don't think you understand much about baserunning, or utilizing a players skillset.

Hypothetical; down by a run in the ninth, runner on first gets injured. Thome and Pods are the available replacements. Who do you pinch run?
Well, that's a more specific situation. When we're talking about base-stealing, I'll take the superior base-stealer, and the risk involved is necessary. In that instance, I pinch-run Pods. If it's the middle of the fifth inning and the situation is menial, I'll take the guy less likely to run into an out.

Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, and my statement was too concrete -- and I concede that latter point. I wasn't specific enough.

Would you say AJ has been our best base-runner since 2005? I would, hands down.

Baron
01-24-2010, 01:21 PM
http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/01/guilen-maintains-stance-on-rotationing-dhs.html

thedudeabides
01-24-2010, 01:35 PM
Well, that's a more specific situation. When we're talking about base-stealing, I'll take the superior base-stealer, and the risk involved is necessary. In that instance, I pinch-run Pods. If it's the middle of the fifth inning and the situation is menial, I'll take the guy less likely to run into an out.

Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, and my statement was too concrete -- and I concede that latter point. I wasn't specific enough.

Would you say AJ has been our best base-runner since 2005? I would, hands down.

Understood, but regardless of inning, the idea is to score runs, and I still believe Pods gives you the best chance to score the run, and I'm not a fan of Pods.

As far as AJ goes, I would agree he is our smartest, but he is limited by his skillset. Speed absolutely plays a role in baserunning. I think Iguchi, Cabrera, Pods(not last season), Alexei, Quentin(when healthy), Brian Anderson, Getz, were better baserunners. If AJ was faster, he would be one of the best in baseball.

asindc
01-24-2010, 01:35 PM
1. Yes, I stated I would rather have Thome on base than Pods. I stand by that, but I see no purpose in advocating my case when no one will listen. I understand.
2. Never said that Thome could play a position in the field. Not sure where you're pulling that from.
3. Yes, I think Jones is a ****ty athlete. I don't think he's a bad fielder in the corners by any means, but I'm not sure what the guy does well at this point in his career other than that. He may hit left-handed pitching, which would make a Thome/Jones platoon possible.
4. Yes, I want Thome back. Here's my argument, summarized: Thome is the best available fit, given salary, ability, etc. He pounds right-handed pitching, he takes walks, and may be platooned at the position to stay fresh. He is not, and never will be, a worse option than the three-headed monster of bench-players that Ozzie has been advocating.

(And what would it matter regarding your first statement? Thome and Pods probably won't have the same OBP this year, or ever.)

1. Several members here have read your statement about preferring Thome as a baserunner over Pods, as evidenced by the many responses to that statement. We are, in fact, "listening." We simply disagree with that statement.

2. I pull that example as a response to your statement about Jones being no more athletic than Thome. Jones' ability to play a field position and superior running speed both evidence superior athletic ability to Thome.

3. I have no argument with that. My previous statement, as noted, was in response to your statements suggesting that Thome is a better baserunner than Pods and Jones is no more athletic than Thome.

4. As I have stated before, while I don't think Thome is the best option available to fill the DH position, I will not argue against the suggestion. I will reiterate: my previous statement was in response to your statements suggesting that Thome is a better baserunner than Pods and Jones is no more athletic than Thome.

(I made my first statement as an example of how implausible it is to suggest that we should want Thome on base rather than Pods. As a previous poster noted, Pods is much more likely to score from 1st on a double, from 2nd on a single (you had to have been just as frustrated as the rest of us watching Thome, Pauly, and sometimes Dye having to be given the stop sign at 3rd when running from 2nd on a single to the right/center gap), and from 3rd on a sac fly. I think you are focused more on the trees (OBP, outs made on base paths, etc.) and not enough on the forest (scoring runs), which is why I made the statement.)

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 01:54 PM
(I made my first statement as an example of how implausible it is to suggest that we should want Thome on base rather than Pods. As a previous poster noted, Pods is much more likely to score from 1st on a double, from 2nd on a single (you had to have been just as frustrated as the rest of us watching Thome, Pauly, and sometimes Dye having to be given the stop sign at 3rd when running from 2nd on a single to the right/center gap), and from 3rd on a sac fly. I think you are focused more on the trees (OBP, outs made on base paths, etc.) and not enough on the forest (scoring runs), which is why I made the statement.)
I understand that, but here's my counter (and more so to the organization's thoughts regarding the rotating DH): they are too focused on the trees (keeping guys fresh, "small" ball, versatility, etc.) and not enough on the forest (scoring runs).

asindc
01-24-2010, 02:02 PM
I understand that, but here's my counter (and more so to the organization's thoughts regarding the rotating DH): they are too focused on the trees (keeping guys fresh, "small" ball, versatility, etc.) and not enough on the forest (scoring runs).

I understand that concern and share it to some extent, but touting Thome's baserunning smarts does not advance the argument, IMO. After all, Luis Aparicio might be the smartest baserunner ever (just a hypothetical... I don't know how smart a baserunner he actually was), but no one would pinch run him ahead of Pods today (or the past 10 years, for that matter). Don't discount physical ability. It does matter.

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 02:05 PM
I understand that concern and share it to some extent, but touting Thome's baserunning smarts does not advance the argument, IMO. After all, Luis Aparicio might be the smartest baserunner ever (just a hypothetical... I don't know how smart a baserunner he actually was), but no one would pinch run him ahead of Pods today (or the past 10 years, for that matter). Don't discount physical ability. It does matter.
But I think we're getting too hung up on the idea of pinch-running. No one would call on Thome to pinch-run, but he will be smart once he's on base.

asindc
01-24-2010, 02:08 PM
But I think we're getting too hung up on the idea of pinch-running. No one would call on Thome to pinch-run, but he will be smart once he's on base.

It is only an example to put into focus who we would rather have on 1st while one run down, for instance. If you would not put Thome in ahead Pods in that instance, that should tell you all you need to know about who you think is more likely to score in that situation.

JermaineDye05
01-24-2010, 02:29 PM
Despite the fact that I love Thome, I really hope this move doesn't happen.

thedudeabides
01-24-2010, 02:31 PM
Well, that's a more specific situation. When we're talking about base-stealing, I'll take the superior base-stealer, and the risk involved is necessary. In that instance, I pinch-run Pods. If it's the middle of the fifth inning and the situation is menial, I'll take the guy less likely to run into an out.

Perhaps I'm splitting hairs, and my statement was too concrete -- and I concede that latter point. I wasn't specific enough.

Would you say AJ has been our best base-runner since 2005? I would, hands down.

He may be less likely to run into an out, but over the last couple of years, he has killed the momentum in a ton of innings by his lack of ability to advance. It's not something that can be measured statistically, but if you have been watching the games the last couple of years, you'll know exactly what I mean.

DirtySox
01-24-2010, 02:32 PM
Despite the fact that I love Thome, I really hope this move doesn't happen.

Why? Are you hanging your hat on Kenny acquiring someone better, or do you really think Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel will outproduce JT? Maybe it's just me, but I think the decision is fairly obvious.

JermaineDye05
01-24-2010, 02:39 PM
Why? Are you hanging your hat on Kenny acquiring someone better, or do you really think Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel will outproduce JT? Maybe it's just me, but I think the decision is fairly obvious.

I don't know. I can't explain it. It just doesn't feel right.

It seems like signing Thome just for the sake of signing somebody to appease the fans.

I guess in my heart of hearts, I want the Sox to pull off a miracle and get an Adrian Gonzalez or Prince Fielder and I figure a move like this would kill that hope.

Thome's good but I don't know if he's the guy that puts us over the hump.

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 02:41 PM
I don't know. I can't explain it. It just doesn't feel right.

It seems like signing Thome just for the sake of signing somebody to appease the fans.

I guess in my heart of hearts, I want the Sox to pull off a miracle and get an Adrian Gonzalez or Prince Fielder and I figure a move like this would kill that hope.

Thome's good but I don't know if he's the guy that puts us over the hump.
I would say a .260/.380/.490 bat against RHP gets us very close, at least a hell of a lot closer than K/J/V.

JermaineDye05
01-24-2010, 02:52 PM
I would say a .260/.380/.490 bat against RHP gets us very close, at least a hell of a lot closer than K/J/V.

I don't want to be 'close' I want the whole thing.

Granted, we do just need to get into the playoffs and we have as good a chance as anyone with our pitching and I feel this team is already good enough to win the division and Jim Thome (if healthy all year) will only make our chances even better.

If you could tell me that we'd see 2006 Thome, then I'd be all for it. However, Jim has been declining year by year and I'd be surprised if he could give us 30 HR next season.

Give me the guy that will not only give us a great chance to win it this year but also next year.

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 02:56 PM
I don't want to be 'close' I want the whole thing.

Granted, we do just need to get into the playoffs and we have as good a chance as anyone with our pitching and I feel this team is already good enough to win the division and Jim Thome (if healthy all year) will only make our chances even better.

If you could tell me that we'd see 2006 Thome, then I'd be all for it. However, Jim has been declining year by year and I'd be surprised if he could give us 30 HR next season.

Give me the guy that will not only give us a great chance to win it this year but also next year.
I'm guessing the team would have no reservations about cutting Thome loose if Adrian is made available (and affordable). But that's probably not going to happen.

Edit: also, I couldn't care less if he hits 20 or 30 HR, just get on base and hit the **** out of the ball like you always do, Jim.

JermaineDye05
01-24-2010, 03:00 PM
I'm guessing the team would have no reservations about cutting Thome loose if Adrian is made available (and affordable). But that's probably not going to happen.

Edit: also, I couldn't care less if he hits 20 or 30 HR, just get on base and hit the **** out of the ball like you always do, Jim.

Thome's not that good to us if he's not hitting HRs. The past couple of seasons he's been all or nothing.

soxinem1
01-24-2010, 03:00 PM
No decision on Thome yet, but Ozzie has changed his flight to Miami to Monday.

Perhaps so he can be at the press conference Monday at U.S. Cellular Field to announce the signing of free agent 1B/DH Jim Thome??:scratch::?::smile:

Baron
01-24-2010, 03:01 PM
Perhaps to be at the press conference Monday at U.S. Cellualr Field to announce the signing of free agent 1B/DH Jim Thome??:scratch::?::smile:

:praying::praying::praying:

GoSox2K3
01-24-2010, 03:02 PM
Why? Are you hanging your hat on Kenny acquiring someone better, or do you really think Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel will outproduce JT? Maybe it's just me, but I think the decision is fairly obvious.

The problem is that Ozzie's plan is half-baked. He wants to do away with a full time DH and have that position filled by a player that can rotate into defensive positions. That part's good, but that only works if you actually have someone for that position who can fill the big hole in the middle of our lineup.

To say that we're better off having washed up players and bench players to fill a spot in our lineup EVERY DAY makes us better than having a bona fide hitter at DH makes no sense.

Ozzie is going to great pains to try to sell us on this idea. He knows that fans aren't buying this b.s. ....then as usual for the Sox when these plans blow up in their face (like the Colon/Contreres/Marquez plan of 2009), they'll just say nobody had no idea this was coming and it's only the Monday morning QBs who are complaining now.

I really wish they end this today.

It's a bad situation all around. Jim won't get even half the at-bats here as elsewhere, he'd take the roster spot of a guy who would be much more versatile, and worst yet we'd miss out in better additions just to curry favor rather than improving the club - while putting our manager on the spot all season...

For everyone's benefit this needs to end. Kenny can operate much better without this kind of spotlight.

I wished that people would stop thinking that Dunn or Adrian Gonzalez are going to drop into our lap if we just go into the season with bench players when the rest of the league is filling that lineup spot with offensive producers.

If we start the season with Kotsay and Jones, we're stuck with them for the season and to gamble the season on the idea that we'll be in the race and able to land a slugger on July 31 is really quite a stretch.

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 03:02 PM
Thome's not that good to us if he's not hitting HRs. The past couple of seasons he's been all or nothing.
You mean get on base or not get on base? The guy hit .260 against RHP last season, stop acting like he's been a complete failure.

He's not even three true outcomes yet, he still gets hits.

JermaineDye05
01-24-2010, 03:09 PM
You mean get on base or not get on base? The guy hit .260 against RHP last season, stop acting like he's been a complete failure.

He's not even three true outcomes yet, he still gets hits.

He hasn't been a failure, but his power has been declining. This team's problem right now is its lack of power which I don't think Thome solves completely.

soxfan43
01-24-2010, 03:10 PM
perhaps so he can be at the press conference monday at u.s. Cellular field to announce the signing of free agent 1b/dh jim thome??:scratch::?::smile:


1b????

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 03:12 PM
He hasn't been a failure, but his power has been declining. This team's problem right now is its lack of power which I don't think Thome solves completely.
So, other than Prince (who is not on the market, and if he was put on the market would be gobbled up by a team with more to offer) and Adrian (who would also be absorbed by a team with a far better system), who do you want?

Rdy2PlayBall
01-24-2010, 03:17 PM
1b????Why did you change some of his post to no longer CAPS???

GoGoCrede
01-24-2010, 03:19 PM
Why did you change some of his post to no longer CAPS???

This happens sometimes, I've noticed. I've never changed anyone's post when I quote it, but it sometimes goes to lowercase anyway.

Frater Perdurabo
01-24-2010, 03:21 PM
Well, agree to disagree. I'd rather have him on first base than Pods.

Now that's just silly.

EDIT: I agree a Thome/Jones platoon at DH would out-produce a Kotsay/Jones platoon (I think Ozzie is an idiot if he really plans to have Vizquel DH), and in the absence of a deal to acquire an equal hitter who could play the field as well as DH, I would applaud signing Thome to fill that role.

But there is no situation in which I would pinch run Thome for another baserunner. Well, maybe I'd have Thome run for Bengie Molina or Dimitri Young.

EDIT 2: I understand a good argument can be made that you'd rather have Thome than Pods on the roster. But that's not the statement you made that I quoted.

JermaineDye05
01-24-2010, 03:22 PM
so, other than prince (who is not on the market, and if he was put on the market would be gobbled up by a team with more to offer) and adrian (who would also be absorbed by a team with a far better system), who do you want?

http://thedirtypop.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/adam-dunn-2.jpg

russ99
01-24-2010, 03:51 PM
The problem is that Ozzie's plan is half-baked. He wants to do away with a full time DH and have that position filled by a player that can rotate into defensive positions. That part's good, but that only works if you actually have someone for that position who can fill the big hole in the middle of our lineup.

To say that we're better off having washed up players and bench players to fill a spot in our lineup EVERY DAY makes us better than having a bona fide hitter at DH makes no sense.

Ozzie is going to great pains to try to sell us on this idea. He knows that fans aren't buying this b.s. ....then as usual for the Sox when these plans blow up in their face (like the Colon/Contreres/Marquez plan of 2009), they'll just say nobody had no idea this was coming and it's only the Monday morning QBs who are complaining now.

I wished that people would stop thinking that Dunn or Adrian Gonzalez are going to drop into our lap if we just go into the season with bench players when the rest of the league is filling that lineup spot with offensive producers.

If we start the season with Kotsay and Jones, we're stuck with them for the season and to gamble the season on the idea that we'll be in the race and able to land a slugger on July 31 is really quite a stretch.

My question is would what we have in the middle of the lineup now be good enough? With Quentin & Konerko we have power, we have Rios for speed/average and Teahen with a little pop, but more a doubles hitter.

Do we really need another power bat?

Truth is, even if we got Thome, he'd hit 6th or 7th. His days of batting 3rd are long over.

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 03:52 PM
My question is would what we have in the middle of the lineup now be good enough? With Quentin & Konerko we have power, we have Rios for speed/average and Teahen with a little pop, but more a doubles hitter.

Do we really need another power bat?

Truth is, even if we got Thome, he'd hit 6th or 7th. His days of batting 3rd are long over.
Duh, but why does that mean we shouldn't sign him?

asindc
01-24-2010, 04:03 PM
Duh, but why does that mean we shouldn't sign him?

Well, while I am not opposed to bringing Thome back, where he does bat in the lineup really does matter in terms of keeping the line moving. I would think he would bat 6th behind Pierre, Rios, Beckham, TCQ, and Pauly, in whatever order you want to put them in.

doublem23
01-24-2010, 04:08 PM
This happens sometimes, I've noticed. I've never changed anyone's post when I quote it, but it sometimes goes to lowercase anyway.

It's a little fix FWC put into the code at WSI, if you only reply in caps, the entire post is put in lowercase letters, preventing crazy posts that are unreadable because they are completely capitalized.

I'm guessing the poster just replied, "1B???" which WSI took as a full-on crazy caps-locked post, so it takes the entire post (quoted included) and decapitalizes everything.

Really helps readability around here.

Chrisaway
01-24-2010, 04:47 PM
Am I the only person on here that thinks the 'DH by committee' is a good idea? I mean I wont hate it if we bring Jimmy back but I like the idea of getting some of our utility guys AB's and giving TCQ and Paulie a day off from fielding once in awhile. Plus Thome struck out alot and clogged the bases. I like Jim Thome but I just don't see him as a full time DH anymore. I know its scary but the game is changing and I like Ozzie's new approach and I'm willing to eat crow if it doesn't work out.

Danielgosox38
01-24-2010, 04:53 PM
Am I the only person on here that thinks the 'DH by committee' is a good idea? I mean I wont hate it if we bring Jimmy back but I like the idea of getting some of our utility guys AB's and giving TCQ and Paulie a day off from fielding once in awhile. Plus Thome struck out alot and clogged the bases. I like Jim Thome but I just don't see him as a full time DH anymore. I know its scary but the game is changing and I like Ozzie's new approach and I'm willing to eat crow if it doesn't work out.


It would be a good idea, if we had the right players that could be productive at it. We don't. So no, it's not a good idea.

russ99
01-24-2010, 04:57 PM
Am I the only person on here that thinks the 'DH by committee' is a good idea? I mean I wont hate it if we bring Jimmy back but I like the idea of getting some of our utility guys AB's and giving TCQ and Paulie a day off from fielding once in awhile. Plus Thome struck out alot and clogged the bases. I like Jim Thome but I just don't see him as a full time DH anymore. I know its scary but the game is changing and I like Ozzie's new approach and I'm willing to eat crow if it doesn't work out.

No, I think it's a good idea too.

But my concern is what if Quentin or Konerko gets hurt... We don't have much backup in the middle of the order.

But I'm not advocating bringing back Thome, I'd prefer someone who can play part-time at a position and at DH and not expect to play every day.

I also think it would be a smarter idea to see what we have in Jones and Kotsay, and then move on better players during the season rather than make a desperation move for a bottom of the barrel FA.

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 05:11 PM
No, I think it's a good idea too.

But my concern is what if Quentin or Konerko gets hurt... We don't have much backup in the middle of the order.

But I'm not advocating bringing back Thome, I'd prefer someone who can play part-time at a position and at DH and not expect to play every day.

I also think it would be a smarter idea to see what we have in Jones and Kotsay, and then move on better players during the season rather than make a desperation move for a bottom of the barrel FA.
How can adding a player at a good salary be characterized as desperate?

Am I the only person on here that thinks the 'DH by committee' is a good idea? I mean I wont hate it if we bring Jimmy back but I like the idea of getting some of our utility guys AB's and giving TCQ and Paulie a day off from fielding once in awhile. Plus Thome struck out alot and clogged the bases. I like Jim Thome but I just don't see him as a full time DH anymore. I know its scary but the game is changing and I like Ozzie's new approach and I'm willing to eat crow if it doesn't work out.
What is the value in giving a surplus of ABs to Kotsay/Vizquel/Jones?

soxinem1
01-24-2010, 05:35 PM
It would be a good idea, if we had the right players that could be productive at it. We don't. So no, it's not a good idea.

I agree.

I remember in 1984 Sparky Anderson used a rotating DH in a season when DET was tough. He used Darrell Evans, Lance Parrish, Barbaro Garbey, Alan Trammell, and Johnny Grubb as his primary DH's, and mixed a few others into a few starts as well. All of these players were quite productive, and played a lot in the field too.

But most of the names we have as DH candidates leave the rest of the lineup woefully unprotected. Thus using Big Jim 80-100 times starting as the DH (and other times entering as a PH/DH) could make him a productive 300-400 AB option.

thedudeabides
01-24-2010, 05:35 PM
Am I the only person on here that thinks the 'DH by committee' is a good idea? I mean I wont hate it if we bring Jimmy back but I like the idea of getting some of our utility guys AB's and giving TCQ and Paulie a day off from fielding once in awhile. Plus Thome struck out alot and clogged the bases. I like Jim Thome but I just don't see him as a full time DH anymore. I know its scary but the game is changing and I like Ozzie's new approach and I'm willing to eat crow if it doesn't work out.

No, I think it is a good idea, as well. We may not have the ideal players to execute it as of now, but we'll see what the roster looks like when the season starts(I fully expect Kenny to make another move). The idea, as Ozzie and Kenny talked about this weekend, and at other times, is to have flexibility, and use it as a way to improve your defense. When it's talked about as Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel being the DH, it's more that they are being used in lieu of a DH. They will be getting more at bats in the field than the DH spot. Kotsay is a good defender at 1B and in corner OF spots, Jones can still play the corners, and Vizquel plays three infield spots well. They in fact, may be better defenders than Pierre, Quentin, and Teahan. So, they will spell those guys and still let them get their at bats, at the same time improving the defense. If Omar Vizquel is getting regular at bats as a DH, than it is a terrible plan. If that happens, I will be getting in line to call Ozzie crazy. But, that does not seem to be the plan. Also, Ozzie likes to play his bench players back to back days, or more, to get them in the flow of the game.

This is the way teams are going in the AL. Other than the Sox, the Red Sox, and Indians were the only teams to really use a pure DH. A lot of that had to do with contractual issues. If they could get rid of Ortiz and Hafners contracts, my guess is they would. Teams are adjusting in the post PED era. You aren't going to see as many one dimensional, lumbering, older DH types, because without PED's guys don't hold up and hit very well when they are approaching 40. You see what is happening to guys like Vlad and Dye. Age and injuries can catch up fast, and many careers end in the mid 30's.

As far as Thome goes, I'm not sure he can hold up much longer, and the Sox organization may know that. He has said himself, he isn't very good without regular at bats. He's not likely to get that because of injuries, and a platoon possibility. He's been struggling to get through a season and is starting to decline, this could easily be the year that he falls off the cliff completely. The Sox training staff knows him well, and they know how hard he has to constantly prepare and rehab his back, just to get his at bats in. They know he can't keep that up forever.

My final thought is that Kenny hasn't given Ozzie the type of team he likes since 2005. If he is going to be your manager, you eventually have to give him what he wants.

Sorry, for the long winded response.

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 05:48 PM
No, I think it is a good idea, as well. We may not have the ideal players to execute it as of now, but we'll see what the roster looks like when the season starts(I fully expect Kenny to make another move). The idea, as Ozzie and Kenny talked about this weekend, and at other times, is to have flexibility, and use it as a way to improve your defense. When it's talked about as Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel being the DH, it's more that they are being used in lieu of a DH. They will be getting more at bats in the field than the DH spot. Kotsay is a good defender at 1B and in corner OF spots, Jones can still play the corners, and Vizquel plays three infield spots well. They in fact, may be better defenders than Pierre, Quentin, and Teahan. So, they will spell those guys and still let them get their at bats, at the same time improving the defense. If Omar Vizquel is getting regular at bats as a DH, than it is a terrible plan. If that happens, I will be getting in line to call Ozzie crazy. But, that does not seem to be the plan. Also, Ozzie likes to play his bench players back to back days, or more, to get them in the flow of the game.

This is the way teams are going in the AL. Other than the Sox, the Red Sox, and Indians were the only teams to really use a pure DH. A lot of that had to do with contractual issues. If they could get rid of Ortiz and Hafners contracts, my guess is they would. Teams are adjusting in the post PED era. You aren't going to see as many one dimensional, lumbering, older DH types, because without PED's guys don't hold up and hit very well when they are approaching 40. You see what is happening to guys like Vlad and Dye. Age and injuries can catch up fast, and many careers end in the mid 30's.

As far as Thome goes, I'm not sure he can hold up much longer, and the Sox organization may know that. He has said himself, he isn't very good without regular at bats. He's not likely to get that because of injuries, and a platoon possibility. He's been struggling to get through a season and is starting to decline, this could easily be the year that he falls off the cliff completely. The Sox training staff knows him well, and they know how hard he has to constantly prepare and rehab his back, just to get his at bats in. They know he can't keep that up forever.

My final thought is that Kenny hasn't given Ozzie the type of team he likes since 2005. If he is going to be your manager, you eventually have to give him what he wants.

Sorry, for the long winded response.
I don't know where you're getting this whole DHing Vizquel isn't the plan thing from. It very much appears to be the plan, and I've seen no reports that contradict that awful idea.

thedudeabides
01-24-2010, 05:56 PM
I don't know where you're getting this whole DHing Vizquel isn't the plan thing from. It very much appears to be the plan, and I've seen no reports that contradict that awful idea.

It's been talked about directly at Soxfest this weekend, and I've heard it several times in interviews. Listen to some of the interviews in full, not just Ozzie's little quotes in papers that have been truncated.

Show me where it has been said he will be the regular DH?

I know you don't like Ozzie, and can't wait to blast him for this, but I'm not inclined to get upset about something that hasn't happened yet.

Frater Perdurabo
01-24-2010, 06:00 PM
Well, while I am not opposed to bringing Thome back, where he does bat in the lineup really does not matter in terms of keeping the line moving. I would think he would bat 6th behind Pierre, Rios, Beckham, TCQ, and Pauly, in whatever order you want to put them in.

I like the idea of batting Thome in the 6/7 spot, so that he is in a position to hit with runners on base. But Teahen and AJ also belong in the bottom third of the order. Consequently, this would allow opposing teams to bring in a LH reliever to face several LH hitters in succession.

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 06:10 PM
It's been talked about directly at Soxfest this weekend, and I've heard it several times in interviews. Listen to some of the interviews in full, not just Ozzie's little quotes in papers that have been truncated.

Show me where it has been said he will be the regular DH?

I know you don't like Ozzie, and can't wait to blast him for this, but I'm not inclined to get upset about something that hasn't happened yet.
No one ever said he would be the regular DH, myself included. It's about him being used there occasionally, in this bull**** rotation.

chunk
01-24-2010, 06:13 PM
I really can't believe people like the rotating Jones/Kotsay DH idea.

DirtySox
01-24-2010, 06:14 PM
Some recent comments on the situation here:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/2009035,white-sox-williams-guillen-cowley-012410.article

Lillian
01-24-2010, 06:15 PM
I like the idea of batting Thome in the 6/7 spot, so that he is in a position to hit with runners on base. But Teahen and AJ also belong in the bottom third of the order. Consequentlyl, this would allow opposing teams to bring in a LH reliever to face several LH hitters in succession.

That is a very good point. The Sox need a left handed power bat, but it has to be one that can hit in the middle of the order. That would provide protection for Quentin and break up the string of right handed hitters starting with Beckham, Quentin, Konerko, Rios and maybe Jones.
Thome is no longer a clean up hitter, nor even a #5 hitter.
This move makes little sense to me. To acquire Thome and bat him in lower third of the order with two other left handed hitters, Teahen and A.J., is not likely to be very productive.

Frater Perdurabo
01-24-2010, 06:22 PM
That is a very good point. The Sox need a left handed power bat, but it has to be one that can hit in the middle of the order. That would provide protection for Quentin and break up the string of right handed hitters starting with Beckham, Quentin, Konerko, Rios and maybe Jones.
Thome is no longer a clean up hitter, nor even a #5 hitter.
This move makes little sense to me. To acquire Thome and bat him in lower third of the order with two other left handed hitters, Teahen and A.J., is not likely to be very productive.

Thome is not an ideal #4, but in this lineup that's where I'd put him:

Pierre, Beckham, TCQ, Thome, PK, AJ, Rios, Teahen, Alexei

Chrisaway
01-24-2010, 06:24 PM
It would be a good idea, if we had the right players that could be productive at it. We don't. So no, it's not a good idea.
Our utility guys aren't big mashers per say but they aren't chopped liver either. You really think it'll be the end of the world if we have Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel at the bottom of the order a couple of days a week? I think we have plenty of pop in the middle of our order with PK/TCQ/Rios. It's just a matter of keeping them all healthy which if something happens, I have faith in KW getting someone to fill in. I don't think Thome is a fit. I'd have been ok with a Damon or Matsui but that aint happening so lets just see what we got and go from there.

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 06:30 PM
Our utility guys aren't big mashers per say but they aren't chopped liver either. You really think it'll be the end of the world if we have Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel at the bottom of the order a couple of days a week? I think we have plenty of pop in the middle of our order with PK/TCQ/Rios. It's just a matter of keeping them all healthy which if something happens, I have faith in KW getting someone to fill in.
I think by a "couple of days a week" you mean every game.

soxfan43
01-24-2010, 06:31 PM
Why did you change some of his post to no longer CAPS???

I have no idea how that happened. I just hit reply, typed and hit submit.

asindc
01-24-2010, 06:36 PM
I like the idea of batting Thome in the 6/7 spot, so that he is in a position to hit with runners on base. But Teahen and AJ also belong in the bottom third of the order. Consequently, this would allow opposing teams to bring in a LH reliever to face several LH hitters in succession.

I meant to say, "...really does matter in terms of keeping the line moving."

thedudeabides
01-24-2010, 06:39 PM
No one ever said he would be the regular DH, myself included. It's about him being used there occasionally, in this bull**** rotation.

Again, I don't think you are looking at this rotation in the right light, or objectively at all. I would expect Quentin and Konerko to get about half the games at DH. The rest split up between Kotsay, Jones, Teahen, and Pierre. That seems to be the buzz and general feeling of most at Soxfest this weekend. If Vizquel DH's about 5 times, because someone is banged up and they need a bat at the top of the order, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

This all will be moot if the Sox acquire another player, which to me seems likely. It came out today that Kenny was in serious discussions with Chad Tracy and Nick Johnson, before they moved on. I'm guessing he is still looking. Just because Ozzie doesn't want Thome to DH, doesn't mean he is opposed to getting another bat.

You are clearly pretty upset about this, but I'm certainly not going to be pissed about this before any of it actually happens, and very well may never happen.

JermaineDye05
01-24-2010, 06:44 PM
I seriously still think that this whole rumor was something to distract the fans during SoxFest. The timing couldn't have been more perfect.

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 06:44 PM
You are clearly pretty upset about this, but I'm certainly not going to be pissed about this before any of it actually happens, and very well may never happen.
Well, when the manager is running around town talking about giving 500 precious at-bats to three bench players, I'm not going to toss my hands in the air and say "Ozzie being Ozzie!"

He's stonewalling what would be a solid acquisition on a team that is one bat short of being a pennant contender.

chunk
01-24-2010, 07:12 PM
Again, I don't think you are looking at this rotation in the right light, or objectively at all. I would expect Quentin and Konerko to get about half the games at DH. The rest split up between Kotsay, Jones, Teahen, and Pierre. That seems to be the buzz and general feeling of most at Soxfest this weekend. If Vizquel DH's about 5 times, because someone is banged up and they need a bat at the top of the order, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

This all will be moot if the Sox acquire another player, which to me seems likely. It came out today that Kenny was in serious discussions with Chad Tracy and Nick Johnson, before they moved on. I'm guessing he is still looking. Just because Ozzie doesn't want Thome to DH, doesn't mean he is opposed to getting another bat.

You are clearly pretty upset about this, but I'm certainly not going to be pissed about this before any of it actually happens, and very well may never happen.

Of "Kotsay, Jones, Teahen, and Pierre", only Teahen is even average. You can't rotate those players and expect solid production. If PK and TCQ are DHing half the time, that means Kotsay is starting at 1b 40 games, and Jones is starting 40 games in the OF. That's not including their spots in the DH rotation, which would put them at about 60-80 starts each. That's unacceptable.

hi im skot
01-24-2010, 07:50 PM
Some recent comments on the situation here:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/2009035,white-sox-williams-guillen-cowley-012410.article

Typical ****-stirring from Cowley.

DumpJerry
01-24-2010, 07:55 PM
Perhaps so he can be at the press conference Monday at U.S. Cellular Field to announce the signing of free agent 1B/DH Jim Thome??:scratch::?::smile:
If Thome plays one game at First, he will miss the next seven games with his knees and back recovering from the experience.

asindc
01-24-2010, 07:58 PM
Typical ****-stirring from Cowley.

Exactly.

thedudeabides
01-24-2010, 08:15 PM
Well, when the manager is running around town talking about giving 500 precious at-bats to three bench players, I'm not going to toss my hands in the air and say "Ozzie being Ozzie!"

He's stonewalling what would be a solid acquisition on a team that is one bat short of being a pennant contender.

I learned a long time ago not to take what Ozzie says to the press too seriously, or Kenny for that matter.

I'm not thrilled with their current offense, but I just think you are way too high on Thome right now, and refuse to look at any of the negatives, as far as he goes. You just pencil in his past numbers as if they are a given.

I'm also willing to give Ozzie the type of team he wants for once, since 2005. He is the manager and should have his say. Kenny has done a lot of things against Ozzie's will the last few seasons, some good and some bad. A majority here thought the 2005 offense was going to be bad, and the 2006 offense would be unstoppable. Ozzie can be a good manager when given what he wants.

I still hope they make another acquisition, but I'm not ready to write off the season just yet if they don't.

chunk
01-24-2010, 08:35 PM
I learned a long time ago not to take what Ozzie says to the press too seriously, or Kenny for that matter.

I'm not thrilled with their current offense, but I just think you are way too high on Thome right now, and refuse to look at any of the negatives, as far as he goes. You just pencil in his past numbers as if they are a given.

I'm also willing to give Ozzie the type of team he wants for once, since 2005. He is the manager and should have his say. Kenny has done a lot of things against Ozzie's will the last few seasons, some good and some bad. A majority here thought the 2005 offense was going to be bad, and the 2006 offense would be unstoppable. Ozzie can be a good manager when given what he wants.

I still hope they make another acquisition, but I'm not ready to write off the season just yet if they don't.

The 2006 offense was excellent, it was the pitching that fell apart. Pretty much every pitcher saw a decline. I don't really know what you mean when you say give Ozzie the team he wants. I don't see why it wouldn't have been the team he wanted the past few years.

soxinem1
01-24-2010, 08:37 PM
If Thome plays one game at First, he will miss the next seven games with his knees and back recovering from the experience.

That is just the press release to make it look good. We all know there are no plans for JT to even bring a glove to the park, no matter who he ends up playing for in 2010.:smile:

The 2006 offense was excellent, it was the pitching that fell apart. Pretty much every pitcher saw a decline. I don't really know what you mean when you say give Ozzie the team he wants. I don't see why it wouldn't have been the team he wanted the past few years.

The pitching was so-so all year, the defense was mediocre, and the offense took a crap after the ASB. Not a good combo by any means.

thedudeabides
01-24-2010, 08:42 PM
The 2006 offense was excellent, it was the pitching that fell apart. Pretty much every pitcher saw a decline. I don't really know what you mean when you say give Ozzie the team he wants. I don't see why it wouldn't have been the team he wanted the past few years.

The offense struggled in the second half of 2006, but I do agree the pitching was a bigger problem.

Every offsesason since 2006 he said he wanted less of the station to station, high strikeout type offense. He has also talked about wanting to improve the defense, and every year Kenny keeps giving him poor defensive players. Since 2005 they have not been on the same page regarding the roster.

Frater Perdurabo
01-24-2010, 08:47 PM
The Trib quoted (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0125-white-sox-brite-chicago--20100124,0,6100155.story) Ozzie as saying this:

"If we're down 11-0 in the third inning and I want to give one of the (starting position players) a day off, I don't want to put Vizquel out there. They did it to me (as a player). Vizquel is a Hall of Famer."

Vizquel's feelings are a reason to keep another backup infielder?

There are good arguments to be made against acquiring Thome (although I favor signing him for the right price), but this is a stupid reason.

If Ozzie is just blowing smoke, he's insulting our intelligence. If it really is a reason why he doesn't want Thome, it shows his lack of intelligence.

thedudeabides
01-24-2010, 08:57 PM
The Trib quoted (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0125-white-sox-brite-chicago--20100124,0,6100155.story) Ozzie as saying this:



Vizquel's feelings are a reason to keep another backup infielder?

There are good arguments to be made against acquiring Thome (although I favor signing him for the right price), but this is a stupid reason.

If Ozzie is just blowing smoke, he's insulting our intelligence. If it really is a reason why he doesn't want Thome, it shows his lack of intelligence.

And you are taking this out of context. That was his response to carrying only one backup infielder, an option they may be forced into if they sign Thome and carry 12 pitchers. If they are down 11-0, he can't take out an infielder because if one gets hurt he doesn't have a backup.

But, don't let that get in your way of bashing Ozzie.

Baron
01-24-2010, 09:12 PM
The one thing I cant understand is that 60 percent of people who voted want the DH rotation we have.......:scratch:

Frater Perdurabo
01-24-2010, 09:41 PM
And you are taking this out of context. That was his response to carrying only one backup infielder, an option they may be forced into if they sign Thome and carry 12 pitchers. If they are down 11-0, he can't take out an infielder because if one gets hurt he doesn't have a backup.

But, don't let that get in your way of bashing Ozzie.

There are plenty of good reasons to carry two backup infielders. If Ozzie wants two infielders because he's concerned about emergency situations, then he would have said so.

Protecting Omar Vizquel's feelings - because he might feel insulted being used in garbage time to protect a starter, which is the essence of what Ozzie actually said - is a bad reason.

Brian26
01-24-2010, 09:43 PM
And you are taking this out of context. That was his response to carrying only one backup infielder, an option they may be forced into if they sign Thome and carry 12 pitchers. If they are down 11-0, he can't take out an infielder because if one gets hurt he doesn't have a backup.

Lots on indications this weekend that the Sox will go with an 11-man staff, FWIW.

thedudeabides
01-24-2010, 09:44 PM
There are plenty of good reasons to carry two backup infielders.

Protecting Omar Vizquel's feelings is a bad reason.

You're missing the point of the response. It wasn't about hurting his feelings. It was about the Sox being in a bad position with only one backup infielder. But, read into it however you want.

thedudeabides
01-24-2010, 09:47 PM
Lots on indications this weekend that the Sox will go with an 11-man staff, FWIW.

I was hearing the same. I think that's what will have to happen if they bring on Thome or any other outfielder/1B type player.

Hopefully, that would be the solution to appease Ozzie and Kenny. I think the Sox have the starting staff to do it.

Frater Perdurabo
01-24-2010, 10:08 PM
You're missing the point of the response. It wasn't about hurting his feelings. It was about the Sox being in a bad position with only one backup infielder. But, read into it however you want.

I'm basing my response on Ozzie's quote. You're the one who is re-interpreting it.

Rdy2PlayBall
01-24-2010, 10:31 PM
Can we trade Jones? If we do there is room for Thome. I know it's mean... but come on. :P

oeo
01-24-2010, 10:37 PM
Can we trade Jones? If we do there is room for Thome. I know it's mean... but come on. :P

Trade him for what? Jones should have never been signed. As it currently stands, he's not a very good fit and now he's just wasting a roster spot.

russ99
01-24-2010, 10:39 PM
Trade him for what? Jones should have never been signed. As it currently stands, he's not a very good fit and now he's just wasting a roster spot.

No, Jones was signed for a very low deal (500k) with incentives. A smart signing if he pans out, no big deal if he doesn't.

Typical Kenny reclamation project, btw - and his track record has been pretty good with those.

And maybe you should see him play before deeming him a bad fit. IMO, Thome's a worse fit since he can't play the field.

oeo
01-24-2010, 10:41 PM
No, Jones was signed for a very low deal (500k) with incentives. A smart signing if he pans out, no big deal if he doesn't.

Typical Kenny reclamation project, btw - and his track record has been pretty good with those.

And maybe you should see him play before deeming him a bad fit. IMO, Thome's a worse fit since he can't play the field.

I don't care about his contract. He's not good anymore, and he likely used PED's. Brian Anderson would have been a better signing.

Better yet, you keep that roster spot open to sign someone worthwhile.

oeo
01-24-2010, 10:44 PM
The 2006 offense was excellent, it was the pitching that fell apart. Pretty much every pitcher saw a decline. I don't really know what you mean when you say give Ozzie the team he wants. I don't see why it wouldn't have been the team he wanted the past few years.

The 2006 offense disappeared in the latter part of the year, and the rotation actually stepped up.

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 10:51 PM
No, Jones was signed for a very low deal (500k) with incentives. A smart signing if he pans out, no big deal if he doesn't.

Typical Kenny reclamation project, btw - and his track record has been pretty good with those.

And maybe you should see him play before deeming him a bad fit. IMO, Thome's a worse fit since he can't play the field.
So, even though Jones is ****ing garbage with the bat the fact that he can play the field makes him a better fit when we need a designated hitter?

My head hurts.

Thome25
01-24-2010, 11:21 PM
So, even though Jones is ****ing garbage with the bat the fact that he can play the field makes him a better fit when we need a designated hitter?

My head hurts.

This is from the guy who made WSI collectively open up the Excedrin bottles by suggesting that he'd rather have Thome on 1st base instead of Pods.

With all due respect CG, I thank God that you're not in management in any capacity for our baseball club that resides on the southside of Chicago.

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 11:30 PM
This is from the guy who made WSI collectively open up the Excedrin bottles by suggesting that he'd rather have Thome on 1st base instead of Pods.

With all due respect CB, I thank God that you're not in management in any capacity for our baseball club that resides on the southside of Chicago.
Spare me the melodrama. I already agreed there was nuance to my position, and simply stated that I thought Thome was less likely to run into an out.

Now, if you want to dispute what you actually quoted, go right ahead. I suspect you have no defense though, and would rather pull upon something I said earlier in the thread.

BadBobbyJenks
01-24-2010, 11:31 PM
This is from the guy who made WSI collectively open up the Excedrin bottles by suggesting that he'd rather have Thome on 1st base instead of Pods.

With all due respect CB, I thank God that you're not in management in any capacity for our baseball club that resides on the southside of Chicago.

I really dont know why people are having a hard time grasping the idea that Thome is a better baserunner than Pods. Pods is a better base-stealer, but not a baserunner.

Thome25
01-24-2010, 11:39 PM
I really dont know why people are having a hard time grasping the idea that Thome is a better baserunner than Pods. Pods is a better base-stealer, but not a baserunner.

You could possibly have all of the baserunning smarts in the world (as you and CB are apparently suggesting that Thome indeed has.) and that gets wiped out by default because Thome runs like he has his feet in quicksand AND a piano on his back, not to mention a gimpy back.

Pods is a better baserunner than Thome on his worst day because of this and this is coming from one of the biggest Thome fans around......(check the screen name.)

Craig Grebeck
01-24-2010, 11:45 PM
You could possibly have all of the baserunning smarts in the world (as you and CB are apparently suggesting that Thome indeed has.) and that gets wiped out by default because Thome runs like he has his feet in quicksand AND a piano on his back, not to mention a gimpy back.

Pods is a better baserunner than Thome on his worst day because of this and this is coming from one of the biggest Thome fans around......(check the screen name.)
That's great that you think that. Again, I disagree. Your opinion does not supersede mine, and mine does not supersede yours. So let's discuss what you quoted a few posts above.

Domeshot17
01-24-2010, 11:52 PM
The rotating DH can be a good idea. If you were the Yankees, you could have a solid rotation. However, the 3 man DH rotation the sox plan to use makes the combination of Vizquel, Andruw Jones, and Kotsay a full time DH.

Over the last 3 seasons: Andruw Jones has hit about .205 with about a .700 OPS in around 1000 at bats.

Mark Kotsay has hit about .265 with an OPS under .700. Take away 1 bad year, he is a valuable pinch hitter hitting about .270 with a very low .700 ops

Omar Vizquel has hit about .240 with an OPS under .650

(these are rough averages give or take a few points).


Since you guys all love the idea of rotating those 3, to keep them fresh, and get them plenty of at bats, we are going to give the trio 500 at bats, so they can hit, what appears to work to about 245 with an ops of about 700 and about 100 of strikeouts if Andruw gets 300 AB.

Or you can have Jim Thome who, I will DOWNGRADE his 3 year average and play him at 240 average, 850 OPS with about 135-145 ks.

Keep in mind, when regards to striking out, the Sox struck out great last year. We were in the top 5 fewest strike outs in the league, and our offense was PATHETIC. Just because you don't strike out doesn't make your offense effective. Infact, 8 of the 10 offenses in the MLB struck out more than the white sox. The 2 exceptions, the Yankees, and the Twins, who had 1 fewer K than we did.

The trio will get on base, roughly, at .310 (31% of the time). Thome will get on base at .365 (36.5% of the time). Thome will create (score plus drive in), roughly in a full season lets say 150 runs (drives in 90, scores 60). I would be hard pressed to say the trio can do 120 based on their past 3 years.

If you did a platoon of Thome and Jones lefty righty, you may actually get thome at 260 with a 380 OBP and a 900 OPS. Jones may upgrade to 240 with a 800 OPS. All of the sudden we have an effective DH.

I am not pulling numbers out of thin air, these are what these guys track records show.

The OBP alone makes this make too much sense. If you have a bunch of guys who can hit 280-300 for a change, why put a guy infront of them whos on base 31% of the time versus 36-37%.

Thome at 1-1.5 Mil makes FAR too much sense, and a much better low risk move versus Andruw Jones at 500k.

beasly213
01-24-2010, 11:59 PM
The rotating DH can be a good idea. If you were the Yankees, you could have a solid rotation. However, the 3 man DH rotation the sox plan to use makes the combination of Vizquel, Andruw Jones, and Kotsay a full time DH.

Over the last 3 seasons: Andruw Jones has hit about .205 with about a .700 OPS in around 1000 at bats.

Mark Kotsay has hit about .265 with an OPS under .700. Take away 1 bad year, he is a valuable pinch hitter hitting about .270 with a very low .700 ops

Omar Vizquel has hit about .240 with an OPS under .650

(these are rough averages give or take a few points).


Since you guys all love the idea of rotating those 3, to keep them fresh, and get them plenty of at bats, we are going to give the trio 500 at bats, so they can hit, what appears to work to about 245 with an ops of about 700 and about 100 of strikeouts if Andruw gets 300 AB.

Or you can have Jim Thome who, I will DOWNGRADE his 3 year average and play him at 240 average, 850 OPS with about 135-145 ks.

Keep in mind, when regards to striking out, the Sox struck out great last year. We were in the top 5 fewest strike outs in the league, and our offense was PATHETIC. Just because you don't strike out doesn't make your offense effective. Infact, 8 of the 10 offenses in the MLB struck out more than the white sox. The 2 exceptions, the Yankees, and the Twins, who had 1 fewer K than we did.

The trio will get on base, roughly, at .310 (31% of the time). Thome will get on base at .365 (36.5% of the time). Thome will create (score plus drive in), roughly in a full season lets say 150 runs (drives in 90, scores 60). I would be hard pressed to say the trio can do 120 based on their past 3 years.

If you did a platoon of Thome and Jones lefty righty, you may actually get thome at 260 with a 380 OBP and a 900 OPS. Jones may upgrade to 240 with a 800 OPS. All of the sudden we have an effective DH.

I am not pulling numbers out of thin air, these are what these guys track records show.

The OBP alone makes this make too much sense. If you have a bunch of guys who can hit 280-300 for a change, why put a guy infront of them whos on base 31% of the time versus 36-37%.

Thome at 1-1.5 Mil makes FAR too much sense, and a much better low risk move versus Andruw Jones at 500k.


I love it when you analyze
:hawk

Thome25
01-24-2010, 11:59 PM
So, even though Jones is ****ing garbage with the bat the fact that he can play the field makes him a better fit when we need a designated hitter?

My head hurts.

Here's the discussion you've been asking for CG. Guillen is tired of having a guy who can DH and only that and is therefore making our club far less versatile.

He is looking for a player who can play the field more than once every three years AND DH. Teams are pulling away from the notion that a DH has to be a DH and only that.

I'm not convinced that Jones is the guy that can fill that role nor am I suggesting that he should be in it purely because he can still play the field.

But IMO your idea that we need a DH and only that is flat-out wrong. We need players who can hit, run, field, AND DH a little too.

The pure DH I.E. a player who is at the end of his career, who can't field anymore, can't (or never did) run very well, but can still hit a little bit is going the way of the dinosaur.

If you're going to be a player who ties up the DH slot for 150-160 games then, you'd better put up monster numbers ala Adam Dunn....otherwise, it's "DH by committee" with players who can still play the field once in a while.

DirtySox
01-25-2010, 12:02 AM
The rotating DH can be a good idea. If you were the Yankees, you could have a solid rotation. However, the 3 man DH rotation the sox plan to use makes the combination of Vizquel, Andruw Jones, and Kotsay a full time DH.

Over the last 3 seasons: Andruw Jones has hit about .205 with about a .700 OPS in around 1000 at bats.

Mark Kotsay has hit about .265 with an OPS under .700. Take away 1 bad year, he is a valuable pinch hitter hitting about .270 with a very low .700 ops

Omar Vizquel has hit about .240 with an OPS under .650

(these are rough averages give or take a few points).


Since you guys all love the idea of rotating those 3, to keep them fresh, and get them plenty of at bats, we are going to give the trio 500 at bats, so they can hit, what appears to work to about 245 with an ops of about 700 and about 100 of strikeouts if Andruw gets 300 AB.

Or you can have Jim Thome who, I will DOWNGRADE his 3 year average and play him at 240 average, 850 OPS with about 135-145 ks.

Keep in mind, when regards to striking out, the Sox struck out great last year. We were in the top 5 fewest strike outs in the league, and our offense was PATHETIC. Just because you don't strike out doesn't make your offense effective. Infact, 8 of the 10 offenses in the MLB struck out more than the white sox. The 2 exceptions, the Yankees, and the Twins, who had 1 fewer K than we did.

The trio will get on base, roughly, at .310 (31% of the time). Thome will get on base at .365 (36.5% of the time). Thome will create (score plus drive in), roughly in a full season lets say 150 runs (drives in 90, scores 60). I would be hard pressed to say the trio can do 120 based on their past 3 years.

If you did a platoon of Thome and Jones lefty righty, you may actually get thome at 260 with a 380 OBP and a 900 OPS. Jones may upgrade to 240 with a 800 OPS. All of the sudden we have an effective DH.

I am not pulling numbers out of thin air, these are what these guys track records show.

The OBP alone makes this make too much sense. If you have a bunch of guys who can hit 280-300 for a change, why put a guy infront of them whos on base 31% of the time versus 36-37%.

Thome at 1-1.5 Mil makes FAR too much sense, and a much better low risk move versus Andruw Jones at 500k.

/Applaud

Doesn't matter though, Thome is a baseclogger and/or softball player.

Craig Grebeck
01-25-2010, 12:05 AM
Here's the discussion you've been asking for CB. Guillen is tired of having a guy who can DH and only that is therefore making our club far less versatile.

He is looking for a player who can play the field more than once every three years AND DH. Teams are pulling away from the notion that a DH has to be a DH and only that.

I'm not convinced that Jones is the guy that can fill that role nor am I suggesting that he should be in it purely because he can still play the field.

But IMO your idea that we need a DH and only that is flat-out wrong. We need players who can hit, run, field, AND DH a little too.

The pure DH I.E. a player who is at the end of his career, who can't field anymore, can't (or never did) run very well, but can still hit a little bit is going the way of the dinosaur.

If you're going to be a player who ties up the DH slot for 150-160 games then, you'd better put up monster numbers ala Adam Dunn....otherwise, it's "DH by committee" with players who can still play the field once in a while.
Adam Dunn's career line: .248/383/.520.

Jim Thome's line last season: .249/.372/.493

Not really far off, and when you use him solely against RHP, he's a good bit better. I don't see a huge difference between Thome and Dunn (and there is a difference, just not a gulf), and when you consider the money/players involved, it's a no-brainer.

I appreciate that you buy the company line, but I'd rather not.

JermaineDye05
01-25-2010, 12:17 AM
Adam Dunn's career line: .248/383/.520.

Jim Thome's line last season: .249/.372/.493

Not really far off, and when you use him solely against RHP, he's a good bit better. I don't see a huge difference between Thome and Dunn (and there is a difference, just not a gulf), and when you consider the money/players involved, it's a no-brainer.

I appreciate that you buy the company line, but I'd rather not.

Except for the fact that Adam Dunn can still give you 35-40+ HR and 100+ RBI.

I say that's way more valuable considering Thome has been falling off the past couple of seasons.

Thome25
01-25-2010, 12:18 AM
Adam Dunn's career line: .248/383/.520.

Jim Thome's line last season: .249/.372/.493

Not really far off, and when you use him solely against RHP, he's a good bit better. I don't see a huge difference between Thome and Dunn (and there is a difference, just not a gulf), and when you consider the money/players involved, it's a no-brainer.

I appreciate that you buy the company line, but I'd rather not.

Thome is a one-dimensional player at this point in his career. His only strong point is his hitting. But, the man is going to be 40 years old. His decline has already started and is only going to be worse.

I can understand KW and Guillen's trepidation on a player like Thome. At some point, they are going to be on the wrong side of his decline. Might as well cut bait now while we're still on the high side of his abilities.

Someday soon, he won't be able to hit anymore OR field and how do we depend on a player like that?

Domeshot17
01-25-2010, 12:20 AM
Thome is a one-dimensional player at this point in his career. His only strong point is his hitting. But, the man is going to be 40 years old. His decline has already started and is only going to be worse.

I can understand KW and Guillen's trepidation on a player like Thome. At some point, they are going to be on the wrong side of his decline. Might as well cut bait now while we're still on the high side of his abilities.

Someday soon, he won't be able to hit anymore OR field and how do we depend on a player like that?

We'll sign him to a 1 year deal so Ozzie can start him. The bulk of WSI will applaud Kenny for his lightning in a bottle approach to signing free agents, comment on how shrewd he is, and we will debate it.

Craig Grebeck
01-25-2010, 12:24 AM
Except for the fact that Adam Dunn can still give you 35-40+ HR and 100+ RBI.

I say that's way more valuable considering Thome has been falling off the past couple of seasons.
Yeah, I'm talking rate statistics. I couldn't care less what his RBI totals are.

If Thome has an OPS within 30-40 points of Dunn for 1/10 the price, great work.

Thome is a one-dimensional player at this point in his career. His only strong point is his hitting. But, the man is going to be 40 years old. His decline has already started and is only going to be worse.
Good thing he's going to DH. That would pretty much be the one dimension he'd be paid for.

I can understand KW and Guillen's trepidation on a player like Thome. At some point, they are going to be on the wrong side of his decline. Might as well cut bait now while we're still on the high side of his abilities.
...not if the alternative is the three-headed ****show that will be a J/K/V platoon.

Someday soon, he won't be able to hit anymore OR field and how do we depend on a player like that?
As opposed to J/K/V, each of whom can field and can't hit. But they're our rotating DHs, so what the hell do I know?

JermaineDye05
01-25-2010, 12:26 AM
Yeah, I'm talking rate statistics. I couldn't care less what his RBI totals are.


:o:

The whole argument this whole offseason has been if the Sox are going to be able to drive in enough runs this season to outscore their opposition.

What good is Jim Thome to us if he's not driving in runs? We might as well save our money then and stick with the rotating DH.

Craig Grebeck
01-25-2010, 12:28 AM
:o:

The whole argument this whole offseason has been if the Sox are going to be able to drive in enough runs this season to outscore their opposition.

What good is Jim Thome to us if he's not driving in runs? We might as well save our money then and stick with the rotating DH.
Again, run production does not equal RBI. One can care about production and not care about counting statistics.

Domeshot17
01-25-2010, 12:29 AM
:o:

The whole argument this whole offseason has been if the Sox are going to be able to drive in enough runs this season to outscore their opposition.

What good is Jim Thome to us if he's not driving in runs? We might as well save our money then and stick with the rotating DH.

I don't think he was saying that. I think what he meant is RBI's are a bad stat to judge a hitter on. Alot depends on other guys in the lineup with him. If Thome hits 245-OBP 380 slugs 500, the runs will come.

SoxNation05
01-25-2010, 12:44 AM
When I asked Ozzie who the DH was going to be he replied: "Who's gonna be da DH? Ahh, whoever is der ahahar! No, we are gonna platoon 'em."

This was also the first time I have spoken to Ozzie without getting sworn at... Oh, and I'm fifteen.

kittle42
01-25-2010, 01:01 AM
/Applaud

Doesn't matter though, Thome is a baseclogger and/or softball player.

Totally agree. Anyone against a Thome signing really needs to rethink just how much bias they have given the "baseclogger" attitude many have had here the past few years.

Dusty Baker was once mocked for such a comment.

kittle42
01-25-2010, 01:03 AM
When I asked Ozzie who the DH was going to be he replied: "Who's gonna be da DH? Ahh, whoever is der ahahar! No, we are gonna platoon 'em."

This was also the first time I have spoken to Ozzie without getting sworn at... Oh, and I'm fifteen.

Ozzie needs to get over his desire to be Jerry Manuel and/or his desire to coach in the NL.

Craig Grebeck
01-25-2010, 01:09 AM
Ozzie needs to get over his desire to be Jerry Manuel and/or his desire to coach in the NL.
I love that Manuel messing with a lineup earned him a pejorative nickname and Ozzie's just keeping guys fresh!

oeo
01-25-2010, 02:27 AM
I love that Manuel messing with a lineup earned him a pejorative nickname and Ozzie's just keeping guys fresh!

I doubt Ozzie messes with the lineup any more than other managers. The only times you see those types of changes are when it's not being productive. Once something works, he sticks with it.

It's Dankerific
01-25-2010, 03:03 AM
Why is Ozzie making this decision?

Where is KW?

Nellie_Fox
01-25-2010, 03:25 AM
Why is Ozzie making this decision?

Where is KW?Either the general manager should give the manager the type of team he wants, or he should get rid of the manager. He should not force players on the manager whom he does not want.

RedPinStripes
01-25-2010, 03:35 AM
Either the general manager should give the manager the type of team he wants, or he should get rid of the manager. He should not force players on the manager whom he does not want.

I think KW is finally doing that. Last few years weren't all Ozzie's guys.

asindc
01-25-2010, 09:53 AM
I really dont know why people are having a hard time grasping the idea that Thome is a better baserunner than Pods. Pods is a better base-stealer, but not a baserunner.

I can't believe there is more than one person even debating this point. BBJ, which one would you put in as pinch runner in any given situation where it is warranted? I guarantee that if Ozzie had both on the bench and he chose Thome over Pods, an overwhelming majority of the fans, media, and most importantly, other baseball managers and executives would question his sanity, and rightly so.

Let me state this very plainly: Thome is a smarter player than Pods in all aspects of the game, and that includes base running. However, since Thome lacks the physical ability to perform base running skills even remotely as well as Pods, Pods should be selected as a base runner over Thome in any given situation where the decision might have to be made. I will add that even with such being the case, it should not automatically disqualify Thome from being a part-time DH.

asindc
01-25-2010, 10:02 AM
The rotating DH can be a good idea. If you were the Yankees, you could have a solid rotation. However, the 3 man DH rotation the sox plan to use makes the combination of Vizquel, Andruw Jones, and Kotsay a full time DH.

Over the last 3 seasons: Andruw Jones has hit about .205 with about a .700 OPS in around 1000 at bats.

Mark Kotsay has hit about .265 with an OPS under .700. Take away 1 bad year, he is a valuable pinch hitter hitting about .270 with a very low .700 ops

Omar Vizquel has hit about .240 with an OPS under .650

(these are rough averages give or take a few points).


Since you guys all love the idea of rotating those 3, to keep them fresh, and get them plenty of at bats, we are going to give the trio 500 at bats, so they can hit, what appears to work to about 245 with an ops of about 700 and about 100 of strikeouts if Andruw gets 300 AB.

Or you can have Jim Thome who, I will DOWNGRADE his 3 year average and play him at 240 average, 850 OPS with about 135-145 ks.

Keep in mind, when regards to striking out, the Sox struck out great last year. We were in the top 5 fewest strike outs in the league, and our offense was PATHETIC. Just because you don't strike out doesn't make your offense effective. Infact, 8 of the 10 offenses in the MLB struck out more than the white sox. The 2 exceptions, the Yankees, and the Twins, who had 1 fewer K than we did.

The trio will get on base, roughly, at .310 (31% of the time). Thome will get on base at .365 (36.5% of the time). Thome will create (score plus drive in), roughly in a full season lets say 150 runs (drives in 90, scores 60). I would be hard pressed to say the trio can do 120 based on their past 3 years.

If you did a platoon of Thome and Jones lefty righty, you may actually get thome at 260 with a 380 OBP and a 900 OPS. Jones may upgrade to 240 with a 800 OPS. All of the sudden we have an effective DH.

I am not pulling numbers out of thin air, these are what these guys track records show.

The OBP alone makes this make too much sense. If you have a bunch of guys who can hit 280-300 for a change, why put a guy infront of them whos on base 31% of the time versus 36-37%.

Thome at 1-1.5 Mil makes FAR too much sense, and a much better low risk move versus Andruw Jones at 500k.

I think this is the crux of the analysis, and it is why CG and BBJ continue to insist that Thome is a better base runner than Pods against all evidence to the contrary. We often saw Thome get on base 36% of the time, but it also often took 3 hits to get him in from 1st. If the DH platoon (I don't think Vizquel will get more than 5-7 starts at DH this year, if that much) gets on 31% of the time but has a better chance of scoring from 1st base based on what the next two batters accomplish, then this might be a wash.

I don't know if it could be reasonably projected as such, I am just suggesting that this is the kind of analysis I think the FO is doing when evaluating Thome's possible effectiveness against other options. I will say this: If KW is doing this kind of analysis while laboring under the belief that Thome is a better base runner than Pods and a better athlete than Jones, I will be among those ripping him mercilessly.

asindc
01-25-2010, 10:05 AM
Adam Dunn's career line: .248/383/.520.

Jim Thome's line last season: .249/.372/.493

Not really far off, and when you use him solely against RHP, he's a good bit better. I don't see a huge difference between Thome and Dunn (and there is a difference, just not a gulf), and when you consider the money/players involved, it's a no-brainer.

I appreciate that you buy the company line, but I'd rather not.

Except for the fact that Adam Dunn can still give you 35-40+ HR and 100+ RBI.

I say that's way more valuable considering Thome has been falling off the past couple of seasons.

... and Adam Dunn does not run like he is wearing lead ankle bracelets. That is an important consideration.

russ99
01-25-2010, 10:20 AM
Ozzie needs to get over his desire to be Jerry Manuel and/or his desire to coach in the NL.

Well, when Bud and his team of chuckleheads abolishes the DH (teal?), you'd say Ozzie was a forward thinker...

Again, I think Andruw is a high-risk move, but a better risk than Thome. We don't want to see another Fisk situation where the team has to cut a fan favorite at the end of his career.

If Kenny brought in a different slugger who wasn't 37-40 years old (like Blalock) I'd have zero problem with that.

Kenny should still keep looking.

soxfan43
01-25-2010, 10:26 AM
Maybe I'm just crazy, but isn't a main factor being mostly ignored in this decision? the Quentin factor? I think a big reason they want to keep the DH spot flexible is so they can move Quentin there a few days a week in an attempt to keep him healthy.

I'm not totally convinced one way or another on the Thome situation but I think that between Jones, Kotsay, and some of the guys that may start in AAA (Viciedo, Flowers, Danks), the Sox can make the DH by committee work.

sox1970
01-25-2010, 10:36 AM
Maybe I'm just crazy, but isn't a main factor being mostly ignored in this decision? the Quentin factor? I think a big reason they want to keep the DH spot flexible is so they can move Quentin there a few days a week in an attempt to keep him healthy.

I'm not totally convinced one way or another on the Thome situation but I think that between Jones, Kotsay, and some of the guys that may start in AAA (Viciedo, Flowers, Danks), the Sox can make the DH by committee work.

I think it will help Konerko too. I just like the idea of keeping those guys fresh, see if you can catch lightning in a bottle with Jones, and then make a move for a real bat around the deadline if you need it (Adrian Gonzalez). If they sign Thome, all they're doing is junking the plan they've had for 2010 all along. Don't do it.

white sox bill
01-25-2010, 11:42 AM
Love Thome to death.

But pass on bringing him back.

ShoelessJoeS
01-25-2010, 12:18 PM
Love Thome to death.

But pass on bringing him back.My sentiments exactly. We have enough aging veterans on this team, and others that will need time off from playing the field every now and then. Sorry, Big Jim.

khan
01-25-2010, 12:41 PM
A team's slg% and OBP are strongly correlated to a team's success in MLB. A team's ability to score runs is also strongly correlated to a team's success in MLB.

A team's DH being able to field well is not so well-correlated to a team's success.

With these in mind, I'd be happy with JT or another high OBP, high slg% type being added to the mix. I'd be less-happy with a team that is constructed with an obvious hole in it; The SOX were so-constructed in 2009, which left the team struggling all year long. [I don't believe that the in-season acquisitions did much to change that, nor would they do so in 2010.]

Gammons Peter
01-25-2010, 12:47 PM
A team's slg% and OBP are strongly correlated to a team's success in MLB.

Yes, but Thome's OBP means nothing (its actually a negative) because it takes 4 singles to score him from first base.

DO NOT WANT

Domeshot17
01-25-2010, 12:53 PM
Yes, but Thome's OBP means nothing (its actually a negative) because it takes 4 singles to score him from first base.

DO NOT WANT

And this is the type of argument that just makes my head spin.

It has already been established Jim Thome will both score more runs and drive in more runs than the 3 headed DH tandem we have. So no, Jim Thome being better than the 3 we have is not a negative thing.

By your incorrect line of thinking, the Sox should ditch Carlos Quentin for Joey Gathright since Carlos is slow.

Domeshot17
01-25-2010, 12:55 PM
I think KW is finally doing that. Last few years weren't all Ozzie's guys.

Ozzie had a lot of what he wanted last year. The Sox rarely struck out, they stole a ton of bases, They had a bunch of "athletic" hit and run guys. They also sucked. So what now, we give Ozzie different low strike out, hit and run guys that suck and it will change?

asindc
01-25-2010, 12:57 PM
And this is the type of argument that just makes my head spin.

It has already been established Jim Thome will both score more runs and drive in more runs than the 3 headed DH tandem we have. So no, Jim Thome being better than the 3 we have is not a negative thing.

By your incorrect line of thinking, the Sox should ditch Carlos Quentin for Joey Gathright since Carlos is slow.

Nothing of the sort has been established. If you want to proclaim that Thome has been a better hitter than whatever DH platoon the Sox might have had in past seasons with the players mentioned, I doubt that anyone will argue with you. But I think your statement assumes that Thome will produce at his career average this year and whichever players make up the DH platoon will be no better at scoring runs once on base than Thome will be.

Domeshot17
01-25-2010, 01:04 PM
Nothing of the sort has been established. If you want to proclaim that Thome has been a better hitter than whatever DH platoon the Sox might have had in past seasons with the players mentioned, I doubt that anyone will argue with you. But I think your statement assumes that Thome will produce at his career average this year and whichever players make up the DH platoon will be no better at scoring runs once on base than Thome will be.

Actually if you read, I averaged the Viz/Kotsay/Jones platoon out at their previous 3 year averages, and I dropped Jim Thomes some. Jim Thome, even at a massive reduction, should post an OPS over 100 points higher, which a similar batting average. None of the 3 guys we plan to use are high average hitters. I would go so far to say Our 3 headed monster of crap won't produce as many runs as Thome did in under 400 at bats last year.

chunk
01-25-2010, 01:05 PM
Yes, but Thome's OBP means nothing (its actually a negative) because it takes 4 singles to score him from first base.

DO NOT WANT
Only in the Dusty Baker school of baseball is a high OBP a negative. Also, four singles to score from first?

It's really easy. Compare the players in the DH platoon, assumed to be Kotsay and Jones. Both can be reasonably expected to put up a OPS around 730 or so, at best. Thome, even with some age related decline, is still likely to have an OPS of 840+. Given these fairly rational assumptions, it can be assumed that Thome would be a better offensive choice than the DH platoon.

russ99
01-25-2010, 01:15 PM
Only in the Dusty Baker school of baseball is a high OBP a negative. Also, four singles to score from first?

It's really easy. Compare the players in the DH platoon, assumed to be Kotsay and Jones. Both can be reasonably expected to put up a OPS around 730 or so, at best. Thome, even with some age related decline, is still likely to have an OPS of 840+. Given these fairly rational assumptions, it can be assumed that Thome would be a better offensive choice than the DH platoon.

OPS is not a good judge here, as the "S" part heavily influences the total.

Again, do we want more homers or more runs? I guess some people prefer fireworks to winning games, to paraphrase Ozzie.

asindc
01-25-2010, 01:18 PM
Actually if you read, I averaged the Viz/Kotsay/Jones platoon out at their previous 3 year averages, and I dropped Jim Thomes some. Jim Thome, even at a massive reduction, should post an OPS over 100 points higher, which a similar batting average. None of the 3 guys we plan to use are high average hitters. I would go so far to say Our 3 headed monster of crap won't produce as many runs as Thome did in under 400 at bats last year.

I did read all of that in your earlier post. Projecting a higher OPS for Thome does not "establish" anything, the least of which is him having the ability to score more efficiently once on base.

Domeshot17
01-25-2010, 01:18 PM
OPS is not a good judge here, as the "S" part heavily influences the total.

Again, do we want more homers or more runs? I guess some people prefer fireworks to winning games, to paraphrase Ozzie.

Thome gives you both

LoveYourSuit
01-25-2010, 01:18 PM
Am I the only one starting to feel ashamed that a guy like Jim Thome is being held hostage like this with this team (Ozzie) not being able to make up their mind on him?

Say yes or no already. This guy does not deserve to be treated this way.

Rocky Soprano
01-25-2010, 01:28 PM
Am I the only one starting to feel ashamed that a guy like Jim Thome is being held hostage like this with this team (Ozzie) not being able to make up their mind on him?

Say yes or no already. This guy does not deserve to be treated this way.

Very well said.

Part of me wants to see Ozzie get exactly what he wants so that if he fails they can sack his ass. If he succeeds then great, we should of listend to him a long time ago.

Craig Grebeck
01-25-2010, 01:29 PM
Just so we're clear on a few things, I wanted to clarify the following arguments:

1. Thome's high OBP is a detriment. Getting on-base is a bad thing if you aren't fast.
2. A player who reaches base at a good clip and slugs at a high percentage is not as good as a player, or group of players, who hit 10-20 points higher but do not get on base and do not slug for anything.
3. Gravity is bull****.
4. Home runs suck.

JermaineDye05
01-25-2010, 01:33 PM
Am I the only one starting to feel ashamed that a guy like Jim Thome is being held hostage like this with this team (Ozzie) not being able to make up their mind on him?

Say yes or no already. This guy does not deserve to be treated this way.

Agreed. Thome deserves better than this.

On that note, I hope the Sox say no. There are better options out there via trade or free agency than Big Jim right now. I'm thankful for all he did with us but I think now is the time to say goodbye. Hopefully bring him back as a coach when he eventually retires which is not too far away.

LoveYourSuit
01-25-2010, 01:33 PM
Just so we're clear on a few things, I wanted to clarify the following arguments:

1. Thome's high OBP is a detriment. Getting on-base is a bad thing if you aren't fast.
2. A player who reaches base at a good clip and slugs at a high percentage is not as good as a player, or group of players, who hit 10-20 points higher but do not get on base and do not slug for anything.
3. Gravity is bull****.
4. Home runs suck.

I guess that's what I'm reading here and also what Ozzie the genius thinks.



I'm not saying Thome is Albert Pujols today, but given the other options "in house," he sure would feel like Albert Pujols to me.

I wish this team would have been a bit more aggresive with Matsui and this conversation/arguement would not be taking place.

sox1970
01-25-2010, 01:34 PM
Am I the only one starting to feel ashamed that a guy like Jim Thome is being held hostage like this with this team (Ozzie) not being able to make up their mind on him?

Say yes or no already. This guy does not deserve to be treated this way.

I don't look at it that way. He's a free agent like anyone else without a team, and the Sox are evaluating if they can use him. The easy thing to do would be to stick with the original plan, and move on without a DH-only player. He's fortunate that the Sox are even a possibility at this point.

LoveYourSuit
01-25-2010, 01:35 PM
Agreed. Thome deserves better than this.

On that note, I hope the Sox say no. There are better options out there via trade or free agency than Big Jim right now. I'm thankful for all he did with us but I think now is the time to say goodbye. Hopefully bring him back as a coach when he eventually retires which is not too far away.


Based on $$$ and prospects having to be traded away, I don't see another better option.

Craig Grebeck
01-25-2010, 01:35 PM
I don't look at it that way. He's a free agent like anyone else without a team, and the Sox are evaluating if they can use him. The easy thing to do would be to stick with the original plan, and move on without a DH-only player. He's fortunate that the Sox are even a possibility at this point.
I'd say the Sox are fortunate that so many options at DH still exist this late in the process, otherwise they'd be stuck with the cluster**** of a platoon K/J/V would provide.

NorthSideSox72
01-25-2010, 01:35 PM
Just so we're clear on a few things, I wanted to clarify the following arguments:

1. Thome's high OBP is a detriment. Getting on-base is a bad thing if you aren't fast.
2. A player who reaches base at a good clip and slugs at a high percentage is not as good as a player, or group of players, who hit 10-20 points higher but do not get on base and do not slug for anything.
3. Gravity is bull****.
4. Home runs suck.

I blame these bizarre arguments on the media-hyped idea (not reality) that the 2005 Sox won on small ball. No, they won on pitching, more pitching, pitching again... then home runs, then defense, then timely hitting... then small ball. In that order. The 2005 team was very, very good, even by WS champion standards, in SMALL part because they could play the game multiple ways. But make no mistake, that team's 200 home runs were the number one reason on offense that they did so well.

Domeshot17
01-25-2010, 01:36 PM
Agreed. Thome deserves better than this.

On that note, I hope the Sox say no. There are better options out there via trade or free agency than Big Jim right now. I'm thankful for all he did with us but I think now is the time to say goodbye. Hopefully bring him back as a coach when he eventually retires which is not too far away.

I have a feeling if he walks away, its for good. No Team Ambassador, no Coach etc. The Sox are essentially telling him look, thanks for carrying the offense the last few years, but we would rather go with a giant sack of crap in Andruw Jones who hasn't had one respectable offensive stat in his last 1000 at bats.

LoveYourSuit
01-25-2010, 01:36 PM
I don't look at it that way. He's a free agent like anyone else without a team, and the Sox are evaluating if they can use him. The easy thing to do would be to stick with the original plan, and move on without a DH-only player. He's fortunate that the Sox are even a possibility at this point.


Yeah, but doesn't it feel like Thome is like begging to come back to the Sox?

Craig Grebeck
01-25-2010, 01:38 PM
I blame these bizarre arguments on the media-hyped idea (not reality) that the 2005 Sox won on small ball. No, they won on pitching, more pitching, pitching again... then home runs, then defense, then timely hitting... then small ball. In that order. The 2005 team was very, very good, even by WS champion standards, in SMALL part because they could play the game multiple ways. But make no mistake, that team's 200 home runs were the number one reason on offense that they did so well.
I concur, on every point. That team was led by unforeseeable and dominant performances by Cotts/Politte/Hermanson.

LoveYourSuit
01-25-2010, 01:39 PM
I have a feeling if he walks away, its for good. No Team Ambassador, no Coach etc. The Sox are essentially telling him look, thanks for carrying the offense the last few years, but we would rather go with a giant sack of crap in Andruw Jones who hasn't had one respectable offensive stat in his last 1000 at bats.


I'm Thome and asking myself "I can't play for them because they prefer that?":scratch:

At least Big Frank left here and saw his replacement being Jim Thome. Hell, you pack your bags and say "what can you do." But this sack of crap is no replacement for a Jim Thome, I don't care if Jim hits .240 again.

Domeshot17
01-25-2010, 01:40 PM
I'm Thome and asking myself "I can't play for them because they prefer that?":scratch:

At least Big Frank left here and saw his replacement being Jim Thome. Hell, you pack your bags and say "what can you do." But this sack of crap is no replacement for a Jim Thome, I don't care if Jim hits .240 again.

If he hits .240 again, its still 20 points higher than Andruw Jones, if not more.

Craig Grebeck
01-25-2010, 01:41 PM
I'm Thome and asking myself "I can't play for them because they prefer that?":scratch:

At least Big Frank left here and saw his replacement being Jim Thome. Hell, you pack your bags and say "what can you do." But this sack of crap is no replacement for a Jim Thome, I don't care if Jim hits .240 again.
If Jim hits .240, he'll probably go .365/.480 in the OBP/SLG departments, whereas Jones would go .305/.490 or something. I guess you either take slugging and on-base skills or just slugging. I'm with the former, myself.

khan
01-25-2010, 01:41 PM
Just so we're clear on a few things, I wanted to clarify the following arguments:

1. Thome's high OBP is a detriment. Getting on-base is a bad thing if you aren't fast.
2. A player who reaches base at a good clip and slugs at a high percentage is not as good as a player, or group of players, who hit 10-20 points higher but do not get on base and do not slug for anything.
3. Gravity is bull****.
4. Home runs suck.

Actually, I read the stupid arguments as this:

1. Thome's high OBP and high slg% are a detriment. The SOX's craptacular team slg% and OBP in 2009 should be lowered in 2010, so that the team can compete.
2. A player who reaches base at a good clip and slugs at a high percentage is not as good as a player, or group of players, who hit 10-20 points higher but do not get on base and do not slug for anything.
3. A DH's defensive abilities mean more to a team than his offensive abilities.
4. Home runs suck, and scoring runs PERIOD sucks.

asindc
01-25-2010, 01:41 PM
Based on $$$ and prospects having to be traded away, I don't see another better option.

Unless you think Delgado or Blalock will command substantially more money than Thome, I think those two are far better options.

soxinem1
01-25-2010, 01:43 PM
Yeah, but doesn't it feel like Thome is like begging to come back to the Sox?

Sure does. And who can blame him.

Would you want to end your career in that **** park that has that plastic turf in TAM?

Does he look forward to playing outdoors when it is 39 degrees in April and May in MIN?

Or maybe go back to CLE and have no chance on winning in what might be his last season, and still have most of the resident jackasses boo you for leaving nearly a decade ago?

dickallen15
01-25-2010, 01:43 PM
Kotsay is a back up at this point. He was DFA'd by Boston. I know he hit pretty well in Sept. but chances are he's closer to the player that nearly was released. He hasn't had an OPS above .746 since 2004.

I laugh at any Andruw Jones love, even the Kenny Williams, he has something to prove crap. He's had something to prove for a while and it didn't mean crap. He hit below .200 after April last year and struck out a ton his final 100 AB. He is such a high character guy that when he signed a 2 year contract worth close to 40 million, he showed up looking like a beached whale and was beyond worthless. He was playing for a contract before that and hit .220. If you don't like Jim Thome offensively, Andruw Jones is going to put you in a rubber room.

The reason there is a debate is because Thome wants to be with the White Sox. It allegedly won't cost much and the Sox appear to have a glaring hole offensively. If the Sox would have adequately filled this hole, no one would have batted an eye if he signed for $1 million with Minnesota, but they have not. If they don't want Thome, they better have their eyes on someone else.

LoveYourSuit
01-25-2010, 01:44 PM
Unless you think Delgado or Blalock will command substantially more money than Thome, I think those two are far better options.


Hank Blalock SUCKS so bad. He was playing at a hitter's paradise and he was awful.

Delgado is still to me a huge Wild Card because of his health. But yes if healthy he is so much better than Thome. No question.

Craig Grebeck
01-25-2010, 01:44 PM
Unless you think Delgado or Blalock will command substantially more money than Thome, I think those two are far better options.
Blalock and Jones were awesome as the DH platoon for Texas last season. Better replicate that success!

JermaineDye05
01-25-2010, 01:45 PM
Just so we're clear on a few things, I wanted to clarify the following arguments:

1. Thome's high OBP is a detriment. Getting on-base is a bad thing if you aren't fast.
2. A player who reaches base at a good clip and slugs at a high percentage is not as good as a player, or group of players, who hit 10-20 points higher but do not get on base and do not slug for anything.
3. Gravity is bull****.
4. Home runs suck.

1) Thome's OBP has declined since he got here from an amazing .410 in 2006 to .366 in 2009. Now .366 is nothing to sneeze at, it's still pretty good. Thome's OBP is not what I'm concerned about though.
2) Jim's slugging has also been declining from .598 in 2006 to .481 in 2009
3) This one made me laugh. Well played :D:.
4) This is my main concern with Thome. Homeruns most certainly do not suck. The problem is, Thome's power has been on decline that he doesn't hit as much as he used to. In his monster year with us in 2006, Big Jim hit 42. Since then his has dropped to the mid 30s in 2007 and 2008 (not bad at all), to a major drop-off in 2009 when he hit only 23. Granted he did wind up on the bench with the Dodgers for the last month of the season.

Also alarming is that Jim's walks have been on the steady decline as well from 107 (2006), 95 (2007), 91 (2008), 69 (2009).

I don't know if Jim can do what I feel we need from the DH position this year which is roughly 30+ HR and about 90 RBI. I don't feel our platoon can do that either, so I am in no way in favor of this team standing pat at the DH spot.

Don't forget also that Jim has also had nagging injuries the past couple of years that have really hurt us.

DirtySox
01-25-2010, 01:46 PM
Blalock? Seriously? Far better?! :lol:

Craig Grebeck
01-25-2010, 01:47 PM
1) Thome's OBP has declined since he got here from an amazing .410 in 2006 to .366 in 2009. Now .366 is nothing to sneeze at, it's still pretty good. Thome's OBP is not what I'm concerned about though.
2) Jim's slugging has also been declining from .598 in 2006 to .481 in 2009
3) This one made me laugh. Well played :D:.
4) This is my main concern with Thome. Homeruns most certainly do not suck. The problem is, Thome's power has been on decline that he doesn't hit as much as he used to. In his monster year with us in 2006, Big Jim hit 42. Since then his has dropped to the mid 30s in 2007 and 2008 (not bad at all), to a major drop-off in 2009 when he hit only 23. Granted he did wind up on the bench with the Dodgers for the last month of the season.

Also alarming is that Jim's walks have been on the steady decline as well from 107 (2006), 95 (2007), 91 (2008), 69 (2009).

I don't know if Jim can do what I feel we need from the DH position this year which is roughly 30+ HR and about 90 RBI. I don't feel our platoon can do that either, so I am in no way in favor of this team standing pat at the DH spot.

Don't forget also that Jim has also had nagging injuries the past couple of years that have really hurt us.
As far as your HR and BB arguments go, you need to look at rates and not counting statistics. The rates will tell you if he's truly declining or if it's a matter of playing time.

JermaineDye05
01-25-2010, 01:50 PM
As far as your HR and BB arguments go, you need to look at rates and not counting statistics. The rates will tell you if he's truly declining or if it's a matter of playing time.

His nagging injuries could also factor into his playing time.

Craig Grebeck
01-25-2010, 01:51 PM
His nagging injuries could also factor into his playing time.
Of course. Consider that he's coming on to start about 100-120 games for us.

This team isn't leaning on him, they would be utilizing his primary skillset--hitting the **** out of the ball against RHP. He's the perfect fit.

JermaineDye05
01-25-2010, 01:53 PM
I feel I should note that I'm not for bringing Jim back if he's going to be the full time DH.

If he's going to be part of a platoon, then I feel a little better.

Domeshot17
01-25-2010, 02:10 PM
I feel I should note that I'm not for bringing Jim back if he's going to be the full time DH.

If he's going to be part of a platoon, then I feel a little better.

I think that is what has a ton of us excited. Thome won't be back as a full time DH. He will be back as a righty only platoon. You know before the All Star break last year (basically before his 2 weeks of nagging injuries then his trade) Jim Thome had an OBP versus RHP of over .400, I believe closer to .410!!! He had an OPS over .900! His full season righty splits for us were fine, .260 average, 390 OBP 890 OPS.

He can work in the plans. He gets the 300-350 at bats versus righties. Versus lefties you rotate the DH and play Jones and Kotsay. You treat Vizquel just like you would any back up IF. While I like Jayson Nix, He is replaceable.

If Thome can give us 350 at bats, hit 260 with 18 homers 60 rbis and a 875 OPS in a limited role, thats about as good as we can get for the money. It also makes him very fresh heading into the playoffs.

EMel9281
01-25-2010, 02:20 PM
I think that is what has a ton of us excited. Thome won't be back as a full time DH. He will be back as a righty only platoon. You know before the All Star break last year (basically before his 2 weeks of nagging injuries then his trade) Jim Thome had an OBP versus RHP of over .400, I believe closer to .410!!! He had an OPS over .900! His full season righty splits for us were fine, .260 average, 390 OBP 890 OPS.

He can work in the plans. He gets the 300-350 at bats versus righties. Versus lefties you rotate the DH and play Jones and Kotsay. You treat Vizquel just like you would any back up IF. While I like Jayson Nix, He is replaceable.

If Thome can give us 350 at bats, hit 260 with 18 homers 60 rbis and a 875 OPS in a limited role, thats about as good as we can get for the money. It also makes him very fresh heading into the playoffs.

I couldn't have said this any better. I have been reading all of the posts and the Ozzie quotes, and I feel that this is a no brainer. Bring him back!

He hits against RHP's, and sits against lefties. He becomes part of the platoon. I wouldn't see why JT would think that he would be able to be a full-time DH at this point in his career. Like the other teams interested, TB and MIN, he would split time. It makes sense. Most of us want him here. He wants to be here. Just make it happen and lets move beyond this already.

dickallen15
01-25-2010, 02:20 PM
I blame these bizarre arguments on the media-hyped idea (not reality) that the 2005 Sox won on small ball. No, they won on pitching, more pitching, pitching again... then home runs, then defense, then timely hitting... then small ball. In that order. The 2005 team was very, very good, even by WS champion standards, in SMALL part because they could play the game multiple ways. But make no mistake, that team's 200 home runs were the number one reason on offense that they did so well.

That's right, BTW, no one complained when Iguchi hit a homer off Boomer Wells after a ball rolled through Tony G.'s legs which gave the White Sox the lead, even though apparently they would have preferred he hit a single. No one complained when Paulie hit two three run homers in back to back games in the ALCS, even though a single or a double is much much better. No one complained when Paulie hit a GS and gave the WS the lead in Game 2 of the 2005 WS even though it probably would have been much better if he hit a single and stole a base. No one complained when Pods homered to win the game, even though the same scenerio probably was more preferable. No one complained when Geoff Blum homered in game 3 to give the White Sox the lead even though it would have been much better if he were able to bunt for a hit, steal second, get sacraficed to third and scored on a WP or another hit. No one seemed to complain when Thome launched a bomb in game 163 in 2008. Mark Kotsay batting would have been so much better.

I know the White Sox have been homer or bust for a lot of the past 6 or 7 years at least, but I don't know exactly when a home run became a bad thing. People want to give up runs just so the White Sox aren't home run or bust. They just need to score. Who cares how they do it? They are going to have to homer in their park.

Corlose 15
01-25-2010, 02:25 PM
I think that is what has a ton of us excited. Thome won't be back as a full time DH. He will be back as a righty only platoon. You know before the All Star break last year (basically before his 2 weeks of nagging injuries then his trade) Jim Thome had an OBP versus RHP of over .400, I believe closer to .410!!! He had an OPS over .900! His full season righty splits for us were fine, .260 average, 390 OBP 890 OPS.

He can work in the plans. He gets the 300-350 at bats versus righties. Versus lefties you rotate the DH and play Jones and Kotsay. You treat Vizquel just like you would any back up IF. While I like Jayson Nix, He is replaceable.

If Thome can give us 350 at bats, hit 260 with 18 homers 60 rbis and a 875 OPS in a limited role, thats about as good as we can get for the money. It also makes him very fresh heading into the playoffs.

This works for me. Thome as part of a rotation I'm in favor of. Thome as a full time DH I don't like. Hopefully he's ok with that because he really can't have that much of a market clamoring for his services.

I think it all depends on how many pitchers Ozzie wants to take north as well. The Sox have 12 straight games to start the season after the opener and Ozzie usually likes to take 12 pitchers. If they do so, and take Thome that leaves only Vizquel as the backup infielder. With this rotation they might be able to get away with that since the top 4 will all eat up their innings but one of the keys to bullpen success this year is preventing overuse.

Corlose 15
01-25-2010, 02:31 PM
That's right, BTW, no one complained when Iguchi hit a homer off Boomer Wells after a ball rolled through Tony G.'s legs which gave the White Sox the lead, even though apparently they would have preferred he hit a single. No one complained when Paulie hit two three run homers in back to back games in the ALCS, even though a single or a double is much much better. No one complained when Paulie hit a GS and gave the WS the lead in Game 2 of the 2005 WS even though it probably would have been much better if he hit a single and stole a base. No one complained when Pods homered to win the game, even though the same scenerio probably was more preferable. No one complained when Geoff Blum homered in game 3 to give the White Sox the lead even though it would have been much better if he were able to bunt for a hit, steal second, get sacraficed to third and scored on a WP or another hit. No one seemed to complain when Thome launched a bomb in game 163 in 2008. Mark Kotsay batting would have been so much better.

I know the White Sox have been homer or bust for a lot of the past 6 or 7 years at least, but I don't know exactly when a home run became a bad thing. People want to give up runs just so the White Sox aren't home run or bust. They just need to score. Who cares how they do it? They are going to have to homer in their park.

I just think they need to be able to score in more than one way so that on those days in April and May when it's cold in Chicago and the ball isn't flying they can still score as well as when their thumpers go into slumps.

The '05 team was able to be successful, especially in close games, because they had a very good rotation and an absolutely lights out bullpen that saved leads. Hermanson, Cotts, and Politte were all phenomenal in '05. I think this team is a close to being able to do that with their outstanding rotation and what has the chance to be a VERY good bullpen, as well as some options offensively. Get Thome in here to feast on RH pitching and you've got some necessary thump to go along with the smallball.

Lip Man 1
01-25-2010, 02:34 PM
North Side:

In 2005 the Sox won with (all together now) BALANCE.

They had great pitching AND (I want to emphasize this point) they could beat you with a blast, a bloop or a bunt.

They were in the top five in the league in the following hitting / offensive areas:

home runs
sacrifice bunts
infield hits
stolen bases
sacrifice flys

That's being able to win close games in various ways....for the millionth time...THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH HOME RUNS.

But if you can't score runs in other ways than that you're screwed. I'd think the results from the past decade speak far better than I'm able to in this regard.

When the Sox were hitting home run after home run, but couldn't score in other ways and didn't have a 5th starter, they failed to get to the post season.

When they had good pitching AND a balanced offense, they won a World Series.

Coincidence?

:scratch:

Do I think they need another bat in the lineup? ABSOLUTELY.

Am I comfortable with what Ozzie is saying right now about his DH? NO.

Do I think there is still time for a signing or a deal to help provide more adequate balance in this lineup. YES.

Lip

Nellie_Fox
01-25-2010, 02:34 PM
That's right, BTW, no one complained when Iguchi hit a homer off Boomer Wells after a ball rolled through Tony G.'s legs which gave the White Sox the lead, even though apparently they would have preferred he hit a single. No one complained when Paulie hit two three run homers in back to back games in the ALCS, even though a single or a double is much much better. No one complained when Paulie hit a GS and gave the WS the lead in Game 2 of the 2005 WS even though it probably would have been much better if he hit a single and stole a base. No one complained when Pods homered to win the game, even though the same scenerio probably was more preferable. No one complained when Geoff Blum homered in game 3 to give the White Sox the lead even though it would have been much better if he were able to bunt for a hit, steal second, get sacraficed to third and scored on a WP or another hit. No one seemed to complain when Thome launched a bomb in game 163 in 2008. Mark Kotsay batting would have been so much better.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Nli4O4ibZMY/SPZ3l3cpYrI/AAAAAAAAAvs/yZTy_mu--1U/s400/strawman+III.jpg

You kicked his ass!

NorthSideSox72
01-25-2010, 02:48 PM
North Side:

In 2005 the Sox won with (all together now) BALANCE.

They had great pitching AND (I want to emphasize this point) they could beat you with a blast, a bloop or a bunt.

They were in the top five in the league in the following hitting / offensive areas:

home runs
sacrifice bunts
infield hits
stolen bases
sacrifice flys

That's being able to win close games in various ways....for the millionth time...THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH HOME RUNS.

But if you can't score runs in other ways than that you're screwed. I'd think the results from the past decade speak far better than I'm able to in this regard.

When the Sox were hitting home run after home run, but couldn't score in other ways and didn't have a 5th starter, they failed to get to the post season.

When they had good pitching AND a balanced offense, they won a World Series.

Coincidence?

:scratch:

Do I think they need another bat in the lineup? ABSOLUTELY.

Am I comfortable with what Ozzie is saying right now about his DH? NO.

Do I think there is still time for a signing or a deal to help provide more adequate balance in this lineup. YES.

Lip

I don't disagree on any particular point here. In fact, my post specifically said that they were good because they could play multiple ways. But power was a bigger factor than small ball, without a doubt.

The other thing is, if we want a balanced attack (Wes Studi, is that you?), look at what changed in the past year - we added Pierre, Rios, and Beckham to the starting lineup, and added Vizquel to the bench - all of whom give Ozzie more of that flexibility he wants. But the side effect of that is that we also lost some power. The projections I've seen put this team around 180 HR with the current lineup. Playing in the park and the league we do, I think the pendulum has swung too far, and we need that one more power bat for the middle of the lineup.

And finally, you have to look at the actual picture of what is being discussed here. What we are really looking at is:

Option A: Kotsay/Jones at DH
Option B: Thome/Jones at DH

Kotsay is not a small ball player, at all. If were debating Thome versus Damon, well then, this would be a very good argument to have. I can see either one making sense. But we're not - we're talking a .730-ish OPS vs RH split semi-slow guy, versus a .850-.900 vs RH split slower guy. To me, that is no contest, and its not really about small ball anyway.

So again, the argument that signing Thome somehow makes the team less able to manufacture runs or play small ball, is unfounded in any sort of logic.

oeo
01-25-2010, 03:35 PM
Am I the only one starting to feel ashamed that a guy like Jim Thome is being held hostage like this with this team (Ozzie) not being able to make up their mind on him?

Say yes or no already. This guy does not deserve to be treated this way.

Not really. I doubt he has many teams after him, and I still really question whether he's going to have a job, period.

spawn
01-25-2010, 03:45 PM
Am I the only one starting to feel ashamed that a guy like Jim Thome is being held hostage like this with this team (Ozzie) not being able to make up their mind on him?

Say yes or no already. This guy does not deserve to be treated this way.
He's not being held hostage. If there was another team willing to sign him, then that's exactly what would've happened. I don't know why it's automatically assumed that it's the Sox have the decision on whether to sign him or not. If TB or Minnesota come up with an offer for him, he's free to sign with them. No one is preventing him from doing anything.

LoveYourSuit
01-25-2010, 04:02 PM
He's not being held hostage. If there was another team willing to sign him, then that's exactly what would've happened. I don't know why it's automatically assumed that it's the Sox have the decision on whether to sign him or not. If TB or Minnesota come up with an offer for him, he's free to sign with them. No one is preventing him from doing anything.

Because his first choice is the Sox. I bet he will retire if he doesn't come here. Let the guy know, is he coming or not. Plain and simple.

asindc
01-25-2010, 04:13 PM
Because his first choice is the Sox. I bet he will retire if he doesn't come here. Let the guy know, is he coming or not. Plain and simple.

Perhaps the Sox are exploring other options before making a decision on Thome, or just carefully considering the pros and cons before deciding.

PalehosePlanet
01-25-2010, 04:14 PM
At this point we have the look of a National League team that's being forced to use a DH because we're playing at an AL park. Only instead of doing it for 9 games it's all 162.

I wonder if Ozzie realizes just how bad the NL has fared in this scenario over the years. I understand he loves the NL style game --- good for him --- but it won't work in the AL. Not when even Vizquel is considered as part of the rotation at DH.

The first time Omar DH's I'll probably throw up on myself.