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DirtySox
01-21-2010, 04:29 PM
Some interesting bits and pieces in there. He continues to defend his horrible DH decision, talks on the Bobby rift, and mentions he's disappointed that Rios isn't at SoxFest.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2010/01/ozzie_speaks_on_the_eve_of_sox.html

DirtySox
01-21-2010, 04:41 PM
Some more in depth comments by Ozzie here:

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/01/guillen-doesnt-envision-thome-in-plans.html


I will puke if he has Vizquel DHing.

Craig Grebeck
01-21-2010, 04:45 PM
Some more in depth comments by Ozzie here:

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/01/guillen-doesnt-envision-thome-in-plans.html


I will puke if he has Vizquel DHing.
Come on! You know you can't complain about Vizquel DHing until it actually happens, even if the manager is acting so pumped about it.

kobo
01-21-2010, 04:53 PM
I don't know why anyone is surprised that Vizquel may DH at various times throughout the season. Then again, I'm also part of the minority that thinks the rotating DH is not a bad idea.

Domeshot17
01-21-2010, 04:59 PM
I think Ozzie forgot the Twins (Kubel, 300 28 100), The Yankees (Matsui 270 25 90) and a few others as teams who did pretty okay with a regular DH. So basically, no, The AL is not getting away from the DH, the White Sox and the Oakland A's are. I still don't understand, with anyones logic, how having no position on the field that will slug over .500 is a recipe for winning. Especially when 2 weeks into the season we still won't bunt well, we still hit and run like **** etc. I hate that Ozzie and Kenny are building an NL team in one of the best offensive AL parks. Seriously, why not push the walls back 30 feet then, atleast you would play the park to your team.

Craig Grebeck
01-21-2010, 05:13 PM
I don't know why anyone is surprised that Vizquel may DH at various times throughout the season. Then again, I'm also part of the minority that thinks the rotating DH is not a bad idea.
A rotating DH isn't stupid if you have a glut of good baseball players. The White Sox don't, and would be putting a terrible hitter and solid fielder at designated hitter. Why would that be unsurprising?

Lip Man 1
01-21-2010, 06:22 PM
For what it's worth Jerry Crasnick at ESPN.com has a long piece on the remaining free agents looking for work. Under DH he writes, "it's hard to think that Kenny Williams will go into the season choosing between Andruw Jones or Mark Kotsey."

We'll see...

Lip

roylestillman
01-21-2010, 06:41 PM
Ozzie is on Chicago Tribune Live right now. Moaning a bit about 2009 defense including Wilson Betemit "Betemit? He made errors playing as a DH."

house215
01-21-2010, 07:01 PM
What a terrible interview with Ozzie on CTL. The first thing they talk about is Wrigley Field. David Kaplan is such an awful host.

roylestillman
01-21-2010, 07:04 PM
What a terrible interview with Ozzie on CTL. The first thing they talk about is Wrigley Field. David Kaplan is such an awful host.

Agreed. It is amazing how Kaplan can always turn it back to the Cubs. Of the half hour about 5 minutes was spent talking about the 2010 Sox team.

Save McCuddy's
01-21-2010, 07:07 PM
Come on! You know you can't complain about Vizquel DHing until it actually happens, even if the manager is acting so pumped about it.


I can only hope that it's just "acting".

russ99
01-21-2010, 07:29 PM
My new favorite Ozzie quote is "The DH is whoever is in the lineup". :D:

GoGoCrede
01-21-2010, 08:27 PM
I had no idea there were hard feelings between Ozzie and Jenks.

Dibbs
01-21-2010, 09:26 PM
Kenny should be fired immediately IF he goes into the year with a Kotsay/Jones DH. Ozzie should be immediately fired (literally today) for thinking it is a good idea.

JohnTucker0814
01-21-2010, 09:37 PM
Kenny should be fired immediately IF he goes into the year with a Kotsay/Jones DH. Ozzie should be immediately fired (literally today) for thinking it is a good idea.

Are you serious?

Dibbs
01-21-2010, 09:42 PM
Are you serious?

Yes. Anyone who thinks Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel is a good trio at DH at this point in their careers clearly in not in the right frame of mind to be managing a big league club.

I take it you think it is a good idea?

LoveYourSuit
01-21-2010, 10:02 PM
This DH situation is very upsetting if Kenny and Ozzie believe the crap that comes out of their mouths.

The DH position in the AL is suppose to be an edge not a weakness.

SOXfnNlansing
01-21-2010, 10:27 PM
The DH situation is frightening to imagine, but what makes April/May even worse is having Alexei batting .176 those two months (like he does every year in the cold). That's two glaring offensive holes in the line up. Is Rios going to play as advertised? We have a lot of home games in April (12 of the first 19, with at least 5 of them at night). I can see Juan Pierre, Alexei, Rios, and Jones on the field in full winter garb (ski masks) looking like they don't want to be out there. 17-27 out of the gate would suck bad after the Hawk's win the cup.

Just looking at our team objectively, not being a dark cloud. Hopefully we aren't looking at a long summer:(:

slavko
01-21-2010, 10:32 PM
This DH situation is very upsetting if Kenny and Ozzie believe the crap that comes out of their mouths.

The DH position in the AL is suppose to be an edge not a weakness.

Ozzie that old diplomat. No, folks, he's not going to say "we have a hole the size of Grand Canyon." What would that accomplish? He's saying what he has to say.

That having been said, are we overlooking a potential DH now in the system? Are he and KW smarter than we are?

Baron
01-21-2010, 10:44 PM
This DH situation is very upsetting if Kenny and Ozzie believe the crap that comes out of their mouths.

The DH position in the AL is suppose to be an edge not a weakness.

Honestly last time we heard Kenny talk about the DH situation he didnt sound to crazy about it.It sounded like he would rather bring someone in and he was just going well.....if thats what Ozzie wants....He never closed the door on brining someone in and it sounded like he would rather to do that.Im hoping that he does end up bringing someone in.

Baron
01-21-2010, 10:56 PM
I remember when Lovie Smith a couple years ago when we let Benson go and said we dont need a RB we like the ones we have.He insisted in every interview from then on that we didnt need one.Then right before the season we signed RB Kevin Jones.

Now I think Ozzie is crazy but not this crazy.I hope he is just playing one of these games with the media and the fans like Lovie did when we got rid of Benson.He is not going to come out and say were in trouble guys we have a huge hole in our lineup.Its not really that shocking he came out and said this.

Zisk77
01-21-2010, 11:03 PM
Kenny should be fired immediately IF he goes into the year with a Kotsay/Jones DH. Ozzie should be immediately fired (literally today) for thinking it is a good idea.

I think people who make rash claims on who should be fired, should be fired from posting.:tongue:

Corlose 15
01-21-2010, 11:11 PM
The DH situation is frightening to imagine, but what makes April/May even worse is having Alexei batting .176 those two months (like he does every year in the cold). That's two glaring offensive holes in the line up. Is Rios going to play as advertised? We have a lot of home games in April (12 of the first 19, with at least 5 of them at night). I can see Juan Pierre, Alexei, Rios, and Jones on the field in full winter garb (ski masks) looking like they don't want to be out there. 17-27 out of the gate would suck bad after the Hawk's win the cup.

Just looking at our team objectively, not being a dark cloud. Hopefully we aren't looking at a long summer:(:

Wouldn't it actually be beneficial for the Sox to have a small ball options like Pierre and a lockdown starting staff during the first cold month and a half or so of the season? The power is going to be hard to come by in the cold and it might actually play into the White Sox strengths.

I'm not sure why people are so upset about this. From what it looks like they're going to see how this works the first couple months of the season and then fix things on the fly. The season is 162 games long and the lineup on opening day usually isn't the same as the lineup in September.

LoveYourSuit
01-21-2010, 11:16 PM
Wouldn't it actually be beneficial for the Sox to have a small ball options like Pierre and a lockdown starting staff during the first cold month and a half or so of the season? The power is going to be hard to come by in the cold and it might actually play into the White Sox strengths.

I'm not sure why people are so upset about this. From what it looks like they're going to see how this works the first couple months of the season and then fix things on the fly. The season is 162 games long and the lineup on opening day usually isn't the same as the lineup in September.


2 Questions:

How will they "fix things on the fly?"

And

Why not just build a complete team from day 1 rather than "see how this works?"

Noneck
01-21-2010, 11:17 PM
The way I look at this DH situation is if what we read is true, then the Sox DH is either Quentin or Pierre. If the Sox don't get a DH, then its Jones and Kotsay platooning in RF or CF and Pierre or Quentin in LF.

No way Pierre or Quentin should be in the field and an in shape Jones or Kotsay are DHing.

I didn't include Vizquel because I hope he will just be a fill in for infielders to get a rest.

Baron
01-21-2010, 11:19 PM
2 Questions:

How will they "fix things on the fly?"

And

Why not just build a complete team from day 1 rather than "see how this works?"

Lol exactly.This is how you dont want to go into a season." Well I hope this works and if the **** really hits the fan then we'll just do a half *** patch up job and at that point its all over" Doesnt that sound more appealing than just having a complete team?:rolleyes:

DirtySox
01-21-2010, 11:20 PM
2 Questions:Why not just build a complete team from day 1 rather than "see how this works?"

Yes please.

I'm not looking forward to the utter failure of the DH by committee, and then the subsequent trading of prospects from our already terrible farm system to acquire a decent power bat that we could have signed on the cheap during the offseason.

Tragg
01-21-2010, 11:24 PM
Gullen called a.301 obp performance by Wise "Tremendous", Erstad a ".400 hitter" and his 2007 offense his best yet. I don't know if any of those comments were serious or not, but this clowning with the DH (medicore hitters like Kotsay, Visquel) is in the same realm as the above: in a dimension far removed from reality.

LoveYourSuit
01-21-2010, 11:28 PM
Lol exactly.This is how you dont want to go into a season." Well I hope this works and if the **** really hits the fan then we'll just do a half *** patch up job and at that point its all over" Doesnt that sound more appealing than just having a complete team?:rolleyes:


My whole beef is that looking at the potential of our pitching staff, God hope they don't piss it away because of ths stupid experiment. That would be a shame because this staff has the makings of something special.

The amount of quality starts we pissed away last season makes me want to throw up everytime I think of it.

Thome_Fan
01-21-2010, 11:36 PM
Just out of curiosity, what free agents options that could be a DH are left on the market?

Baron
01-21-2010, 11:43 PM
Just out of curiosity, what free agents options that could be a DH are left on the market?


Thome Dye and Damon are out there...

russ99
01-21-2010, 11:49 PM
Yes please.

I'm not looking forward to the utter failure of the DH by committee, and then the subsequent trading of prospects from our already terrible farm system to acquire a decent power bat that we could have signed on the cheap during the offseason.

Alright, you're on.

Name one decent power bat that we can or could have signed on the cheap... For clarity, we're talking about guys who can go 20/80 and hit around .275.

Dye and Thome need not apply, and Damon won't come cheap.

BTW - has anyone thought that Viciedo could win the job out of Spring Training?

soxfanreggie
01-21-2010, 11:58 PM
When we got Rios, we should have gotten to add this to his contract: Club gets the option if he appears at SoxFest or not. Unless he's sick or has a family emergency, he's there signing autographs.

russ99
01-22-2010, 12:00 AM
When we got Rios, we should have gotten to add this to his contract: Club gets the option if he appears at SoxFest or not. Unless he's sick or has a family emergency, he's there signing autographs.

I don't blame him one iota for not going.

The whole tailspin started last year in Toronto when the fans ganged up on him.

He's put in extra work, let the guy start the season fresh without hundreds of Sox fans getting on him and questioning his hustle.

chisox117
01-22-2010, 12:02 AM
Just out of curiosity, what free agents options that could be a DH are left on the market?

Is Russ Branyan still out there? When he can stay healthy, he's pretty Thome-ish (lefty, low average, lots of power, tons of Ks), and he'd probably come relatively cheap.

DirtySox
01-22-2010, 12:15 AM
Alright, you're on.

Name one decent power bat that we can or could have signed on the cheap... For clarity, we're talking about guys who can go 20/80 and hit around .275.

Dye and Thome need not apply, and Damon won't come cheap.

BTW - has anyone thought that Viciedo could win the job out of Spring Training?

Who the hell says we absolutely need a .275 20/80 DH?

Almost anything would be better than the cluster-**** of Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel at DH.

The Designated Hitter is the spot to stick that one player that can smash the ball, but can't play the field. Thome is a perfect fit. A left-handed, power hitting, high OBP slugger. We don't have one of those. What we have are bench players who should not be seeing everyday playing time at a power position in the lineup. But hey, at least we will have 1 less base clogger right?

slavko
01-22-2010, 12:25 AM
BTW - has anyone thought that Viciedo could win the job out of Spring Training?


See post 19.

Domeshot17
01-22-2010, 12:27 AM
Alright, you're on.

Name one decent power bat that we can or could have signed on the cheap... For clarity, we're talking about guys who can go 20/80 and hit around .275.

Dye and Thome need not apply, and Damon won't come cheap.

BTW - has anyone thought that Viciedo could win the job out of Spring Training?

Why would ANYONE thing Viciedo could win the job? Tyler Flowers has a better chance. Viciedo slugged like **** last year, he needs another year maybe 2 in the minors.

DirtySox
01-22-2010, 12:29 AM
BTW - has anyone thought that Viciedo could win the job out of Spring Training?

Have you looked at his stats? Terrible plate discipline and bad pitch recognition. Major league pitching would eat him alive.

He isn't even the best hitting prospect we have.

Craig Grebeck
01-22-2010, 12:57 AM
Haha to Viciedo winning any job out of spring training.

This team needs a DH. It's that simple.

Lip Man 1
01-22-2010, 01:02 AM
Thome:

According to the Crasnick article, here's the list:

Who's out there? Jim Thome, Gary Sheffield, Brian Giles, Jason Giambi, Jonny Gomes.

Lip

JB98
01-22-2010, 02:27 AM
Thome:

According to the Crasnick article, here's the list:

Who's out there? Jim Thome, Gary Sheffield, Brian Giles, Jason Giambi, Jonny Gomes.

Lip

I'm pretty sure Carlos Delgado and Hank Blalock are still available, too.

I can't believe this organization thinks it can win playing guys like Kotsay and Vizquel at DH. Hopefully, that's just posturing and they have a deal for somebody in the works.

harwar
01-22-2010, 07:01 AM
I believe that Ozzie has always wanted a team that can steal, hit n run, and make things happen without being dependent on the home run and i like the idea even though we have a home run park .. i think the problem may arise from the type of players he is being given to play that way .. now if Andrew Jones and Omar Vizquel were in their prime and not right on the edge of retirement, well then, i kind of think it might just work lol .. maybe Ken Williams has an eye on Adrian Gonzalez sometime in july, but that is a long way off so .. oh, and i don't understand the big deal with Rios not going to Soxfest .. are singing autographs really that important? .. by all reports he's terribly shy so that would just really stress him out .. i just want the Rios from 2006, 07,& 08 to show up this year ..

jabrch
01-22-2010, 08:15 AM
I wish I had the foresight to be able to say I was 100% correct about the future. It would make winning the lottery tonight so much easier.

Craig Grebeck
01-22-2010, 08:26 AM
I wish I had the foresight to be able to say I was 100% correct about the future. It would make winning the lottery tonight so much easier.
So are you criticizing the idea that Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel is a poor route to go for designated hitter, or the idea that the White Sox will go through with this? Are you saying sit on our hands until opening day or until October?

Man, I'm not sure what a message board in Jabrch's envisage would look like.

spawn
01-22-2010, 08:33 AM
When we got Rios, we should have gotten to add this to his contract: Club gets the option if he appears at SoxFest or not. Unless he's sick or has a family emergency, he's there signing autographs.

I don't blame him one iota for not going.

The whole tailspin started last year in Toronto when the fans ganged up on him.

He's put in extra work, let the guy start the season fresh without hundreds of Sox fans getting on him and questioning his hustle.
Thank you. I really couldn't care less if he showed up at Soxfest. I rather he work on what went wrong for him last year than signing autographs.

oldcomiskey
01-22-2010, 08:33 AM
yall cant figure this out? Quentin will one day be a full time DH. Pierre in left, Rios in center and Kotsay/Jones in right. Im not saying I agree with it, or even this is what they should do. But it's coming

akingamongstmen
01-22-2010, 09:12 AM
I've got to believe that Kenny is simply playing the market as any intelligent GM should be right now. Why would he or Ozzie come out and say, "We NEED a DH!"? By saying that they're happy with the rotating DH situation (which is completely absurd in my opinion), they squeeze the market for free agents.

We'll probably sign one of the big bats on the cheap right before pitchers and catchers report for a one year deal and we can all move on with our lives at WSI. My money is still on Thome (probably good for .265 25 80 this season if healthy).

asindc
01-22-2010, 09:30 AM
I've got to believe that Kenny is simply playing the market as any intelligent GM should be right now. Why would he or Ozzie come out and say, "We NEED a DH!"? By saying that they're happy with the rotating DH situation (which is completely absurd in my opinion), they squeeze the market for free agents.

We'll probably sign one of the big bats on the cheap right before pitchers and catchers report for a one year deal and we can all move on with our lives at WSI. My money is still on Thome (probably good for .265 25 80 this season if healthy).

He would say it to alleviate anxiety among many Sox fans about the DH situation. It matters less that it is not the best action to take from a bargaining position standpoint, but as long as some of the more anxious fans among us feel better because he said it, that is what really matters most.

Sargeant79
01-22-2010, 09:30 AM
For the record, I'm not a fan of going into the season without a clear-cut DH either, but playing devil's advocate...

Going into the season with what we have now allows them to not exceed the budget if they are truly bumping up against the limit right now. It also allows them to keep the prospects and cash free that would be needed to make a move in the event that this experiment doesn't work out well.

It also allows them to keep those same prospects and cash that may be needed to make a move if some other unforseen problem arises that needs to be fixed, like a pitching injury or someone else we wouldn't have thought about being suddenly bad.

It also allows them to get a good long look at Andruw Jones, who may actually be capable of putting up that .275/20/80 line that everyone in this thread keeps saying we need out of the DH spot if he truly is in the best shape he has been in for years. He may also be cut in spring training...who know.

I would absolutely prefer they go sign Thome or Damon or someone like that. And it is still January...they might very well do that. But I can also understand why they would go with the strategy that they're stating they're going into the season with.

Jim Shorts
01-22-2010, 09:59 AM
I need a cigarette after reading this mess of a thread.

January 21...it's time to FREAK OUT

akingamongstmen
01-22-2010, 10:00 AM
He would say it to alleviate anxiety among many Sox fans about the DH situation. It matters less that it is not the best action to take from a bargaining position standpoint, but as long as some of the more anxious fans among us feel better because he said, that is what really matters most.

As a fan, I completely agree with you. I'm just saying that it is January 22nd and we've got plenty of time to bring somebody in that will make everybody happy when the season starts. Give Kenny time.

That said, if we move forward with this DH by committe plan, then I'm going to be sniffing glue by the start of the season. It could work if we had several talented (preferably young) hitters with upside to fill that role, but what we really have is a group of past-their-prime guys and no insurance policy. Omar Vizquel as a DH is a joke. Ozzie knows that Vizquel was an elite fielder with a mediocre bat 10 YEARS AGO, right? Right??! Sacrifice bunts only work if there are people on base in the first place. Andruw Jones is washed-up and Kotsay is a good bat off of the bench, nothing more.

asindc
01-22-2010, 10:05 AM
As a fan, I completely agree with you. I'm just saying that it is January 22nd and we've got plenty of time to bring somebody in that will make everybody happy when the season starts. Give Kenny time.

That said, if we move forward with this DH by committe plan, then I'm going to be sniffing glue by the start of the season. It could work if we had several talented (preferably young) hitters with upside to fill that role, but what we really have is a group of past-their-prime guys and no insurance policy. Omar Vizquel as a DH is a joke. Ozzie knows that Vizquel was an elite fielder with a mediocre bat 10 YEARS AGO, right? Right??! Sacrifice bunts only work if there are people on base in the first place. Andruw Jones is washed-up and Kotsay is a good bat off of the bench, nothing more.

I was actually being sarcastic. I did not think teal was necessary. I just think some fans have a difficult time separating what they want from what is best for the team.

russ99
01-22-2010, 10:34 AM
Some people here sound like Cubs fans.

You'd think we'd be happy with a top 5 starting staff, the bullpen strengthened with Bobby coming back plus the addition of Putz and adding the #2 leader in steals the last 4 years at the top of the order.

Do we really think the season can be totally ruined due to how well the #7 spot in the lineup does over the league average? Seriously.

I'd like another bat as much as anyone, (and I would prefer Thome over Nix on the bench) but I like what we have now to start the season.

Craig Grebeck
01-22-2010, 10:51 AM
He would say it to alleviate anxiety among many Sox fans about the DH situation. It matters less that it is not the best action to take from a bargaining position standpoint, but as long as some of the more anxious fans among us feel better because he said it, that is what really matters most.
One would think agents, in this day and age, could just show Kenny Williams his current depth chart and laugh in his face. That's a bargaining chip.

I just want Ozzie to say that the team is evaluating options and they're going to see what happens, rather than say the DH is being phased out of the American League and he doesn't see a point to it anymore. That's troubling.
Some people here sound like Cubs fans.

You'd think we'd be happy with a top 5 starting staff, the bullpen strengthened with Bobby coming back plus the addition of Putz and adding the #2 leader in steals the last 4 years at the top of the order.

Do we really think the season can be totally ruined due to how well the #7 spot in the lineup does over the league average? Seriously.

I'd like another bat as much as anyone, (and I would prefer Thome over Nix on the bench) but I like what we have now to start the season.
I'm actually concerned with how every player performs against the league average, as there are far more question marks on this ballclub than you seem to think.

canOcorn
01-22-2010, 10:54 AM
Man, I'm not sure what a message board in Jabrch's envisage would look like.

It would be a board that agrees with the exact 25/40 man roster that our GM assembles, every FA and draft acquisition, plus every lineup or managerial decision that comes from the manager of the White Sox.

asindc
01-22-2010, 11:44 AM
One would think agents, in this day and age, could just show Kenny Williams his current depth chart and laugh in his face. That's a bargaining chip.

I just want Ozzie to say that the team is evaluating options and they're going to see what happens, rather than say the DH is being phased out of the American League and he doesn't see a point to it anymore. That's troubling.

I'm actually concerned with how every player performs against the league average, as there are far more question marks on this ballclub than you seem to think.

Are you referring to the agents of the many players like Dye, Thome, Blalock, Delgado, Hudson, and other good players who are still sitting at home on Jan. 22, 2010 without a contract? That goes both ways. I don't mind Sox management saying publicly that they are prepared to go into the season without signing any of those players, even if an astute agent is not inclined to believe it. The mere fact that so many significant players still have not been signed should temper their hubris.

This is not to say that the DH position, as currently staffed, is not a concern. My point is that there is still time and still a few viable options to consider. Ozzie can run his mouth all he wants. I will focus on the actions KW takes between now and opening day.

Harry Chappas
01-22-2010, 11:56 AM
One would think agents, in this day and age, could just show Kenny Williams his current depth chart and laugh in his face. That's a bargaining chip.

I just want Ozzie to say that the team is evaluating options and they're going to see what happens, rather than say the DH is being phased out of the American League and he doesn't see a point to it anymore. That's troubling.

I'm actually concerned with how every player performs against the league average, as there are far more question marks on this ballclub than you seem to think.

I'm with Russ. You say you're "worried" about how everyone plays against the league average. What team isn't worried? Name the team that doesn't have a question mark or two? I'd say the Sox have fewer than most.

Frankly, I think the Sox will get enough power from their other positions - probably 20/70 from LF, CF, SS, 2nd, and 1st - to survive with a three-headed monster of Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel at DH. And if they can wrangle someone like Gonzalez mid-season, then I trust Kenny will do everything he can to make it happen.

JB98
01-22-2010, 01:13 PM
I need a cigarette after reading this mess of a thread.

January 21...it's time to FREAK OUT

Who is freaking out?

I don't think it's freaking out to say that plans to use guys like Vizquel and Kotsay at DH are idiotic.

What does Omar Vizquel do well? He plays defense well. If he's gonna be in the lineup, he needs to be in the field somewhere. Because that's what he does well. Putting a player like Vizquel at DH would be a gross misuse of his talent.

The same is true of Kotsay. What is good about Kotsay? His versatility. He's a left-handed stick who has a good record as a pinch-hitter. He plays 1B well. He's lost a step as an outfielder, but can still play the corner spots well. Putting him in the lineup as a DH minimizes his strengths.

I'm perfectly calm. Not freaking out at all. The above is my opinion on this topic.

Craig Grebeck
01-22-2010, 01:49 PM
I'm with Russ. You say you're "worried" about how everyone plays against the league average. What team isn't worried? Name the team that doesn't have a question mark or two? I'd say the Sox have fewer than most.

Frankly, I think the Sox will get enough power from their other positions - probably 20/70 from LF, CF, SS, 2nd, and 1st - to survive with a three-headed monster of Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel at DH. And if they can wrangle someone like Gonzalez mid-season, then I trust Kenny will do everything he can to make it happen.
I want good hitters. Good hitters are normally put at DH. Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel are all bad hitters. This is very simple.

Hitmen77
01-22-2010, 01:52 PM
Who is freaking out?

I don't think it's freaking out to say that plans to use guys like Vizquel and Kotsay at DH are idiotic.

What does Omar Vizquel do well? He plays defense well. If he's gonna be in the lineup, he needs to be in the field somewhere. Because that's what he does well. Putting a player like Vizquel at DH would be a gross misuse of his talent.

The same is true of Kotsay. What is good about Kotsay? His versatility. He's a left-handed stick who has a good record as a pinch-hitter. He plays 1B well. He's lost a step as an outfielder, but can still play the corner spots well. Putting him in the lineup as a DH minimizes his strengths.

I'm perfectly calm. Not freaking out at all. The above is my opinion on this topic.

Well said.

If we can't voice our opinions or concerns about the roster that Ozzie and Kenny say we're going with, then what's the point of a message board?

We may as well just all put "Don't believe a word Kenny and Ozzie say" in our signatures and shut down this board until spring training.

khan
01-22-2010, 01:54 PM
Frankly, I think the Sox will get enough power from their other positions - probably 20/70 from LF, CF, SS, 2nd, and 1st - to survive with a three-headed monster of Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel at DH.
OK. Before you continue to think this, have you looked at the offenses of the GOOD teams in the AL? Have you looked at the power production of the playoff teams?

I recommend you do so before you continue along these lines of thought. Then, look at our SOX's lineup [with the craptacular Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel @ DH]. Just do yourself the favor of comparing the SOX's lineup to the AL playoff teams. Compare THEIR production of HR, RBI, Runs, and their slg% to that of the SOX's. Then get back to us.

And if they can wrangle someone like Gonzalez mid-season, then I trust Kenny will do everything he can to make it happen.
"If" is not a plan. "If" is a hope. "If" was what the mopes on the other side of town did with trying to acquire Peavy. "If" ends up in 3rd place, a sub-.500 record, and wastes one of the best starting rotations in the AL.

Craig Grebeck
01-22-2010, 01:57 PM
I also don't see the utility in going into the season with a glaring hole and a plan to just acquire someone mid-season when the price rises dramatically for such deals. Just ****ing sign Jim Thome for $2 million and if he sucks, get someone else. Don't go with Vizquel/Kotsay/Jones and when they suck get someone else.

russ99
01-22-2010, 05:24 PM
OK. Before you continue to think this, have you looked at the offenses of the GOOD teams in the AL? Have you looked at the power production of the playoff teams?

I recommend you do so before you continue along these lines of thought. Then, look at our SOX's lineup [with the craptacular Kotsay/Jones/Vizquel @ DH]. Just do yourself the favor of comparing the SOX's lineup to the AL playoff teams. Compare THEIR production of HR, RBI, Runs, and their slg% to that of the SOX's. Then get back to us.


"If" is not a plan. "If" is a hope. "If" was what the mopes on the other side of town did with trying to acquire Peavy. "If" ends up in 3rd place, a sub-.500 record, and wastes one of the best starting rotations in the AL.

Do you think we have any chance to match payrolls with the Yankees, Red Sox and Angels?

But hey, if you have an extra $10M laying around, maybe Jerry and Kenny could use it to add a power-hitting DH...

Besides, the plodding homer-or-nothing players got us nowhere the last 4 years. The plan isn't "If". The plan is pitching, defense and athleticsm over homers and leaving tons of guys on base.

Craig Grebeck
01-22-2010, 05:30 PM
Do you think we have any chance to match payrolls with the Yankees, Red Sox and Angels?

But hey, if you have an extra $10M laying around, maybe Jerry and Kenny could use it to add a power-hitting DH...

Besides, the plodding homer-or-nothing players got us nowhere the last 4 years. The plan isn't "If". The plan is pitching, defense and athleticsm over homers and leaving tons of guys on base.
The good news is we won't be leaving anyone on base with such an OBP deficient lineup!

Harry Chappas
01-22-2010, 07:07 PM
The good news is we won't be leaving anyone on base with such an OBP deficient lineup!

I know you guys like "ifs" but what IF Jones (I think he is only 33) revives his career? I realize he has had two god-awful years, but what if the reports of him being in great shape are correct? Could KW being taking a 'wait and see' on the DH until he has seen if the answer is already on the roster? He's never been a great hitter but neither are most of the FA DHs still out there.

I guess I'm of the belief that Kenny knows what he's doing and that he will continue to try to improve this team. I'm sure there is a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes that we don't know about and it would be asinine for Ozzie or Kenny to publicly bemoan the fact that we have a hole at DH. They are saying what anyone would say in that situation.

Hitmen77
01-22-2010, 09:17 PM
10 Questions with Kenny Williams:

http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=7149807&c_id=cws&partnerId=ed-3134762-120017484&source=ed-3134762-120017484

LoveYourSuit
01-22-2010, 10:15 PM
Besides, the plodding homer-or-nothing players got us nowhere the last 4 years. The plan isn't "If". The plan is pitching, defense and athleticsm over homers and leaving tons of guys on base.


Did I miss where hitting HRs is a bad thing :scratch:

Do they not count as runs?

FYI, the Sox were a HR hitting team in 2005... just in case you missed that season.

LoveYourSuit
01-22-2010, 10:21 PM
I know you guys like "ifs" but what IF .....


That's where you need to stop.

You don't go into the season with a HUGE "if" at DH when you have the potential which is this pitching staff.

The Sox are failing to realize that the DH position here the last 20 years has been perhaps the most productive offensive position. Hell, why not just plug Kotsay/Vizquel/ Jones in there since the position is so meaningless :rolleyes:

DirtySox
01-22-2010, 10:23 PM
Hopefully the 2 hour meeting Kenny and Ozzie had knocked some sense into him. Thome was pretty much begging to return. I bet it won't even cost that much.

LoveYourSuit
01-22-2010, 10:28 PM
Hopefully the 2 hour meeting Kenny and Ozzie had knocked some sense into him. Thome was pretty much begging to return. I bet it won't even cost that much.


That's the sad part. Thome is basically knocking on the Sox door for work and these clows are basically telling him "we don't need you."

Patrick134
01-22-2010, 11:56 PM
That's the sad part. Thome is basically knocking on the Sox door for work and these clows are basically telling him "we don't need you."


So they're telling him what the rest of MLB is telling him ? For the record, I like Thome and wouldn't mind him back.

fram40
01-23-2010, 12:54 AM
All this DH discussion reminds that in 2005, Carl Everett was the primary DH. He hit .251/.311/.435 with 23 HR and 87 RBI in 134 games. He was the only DH in the playoffs. He was 34 years old.

For the 2005 season, the Sox DH posted .243/.308/.461 with 33 HR and 108 RBIs. only 76 runs scored.

Craig Grebeck
01-23-2010, 01:08 AM
All this DH discussion reminds that in 2005, Carl Everett was the primary DH. He hit .251/.311/.435 with 23 HR and 87 RBI in 134 games. He was the only DH in the playoffs. He was 34 years old.

For the 2005 season, the Sox DH posted .243/.308/.461 with 33 HR and 108 RBIs. only 76 runs scored.
Awesome. Let me know if our bullpen/rotation are unprecedentedly amazing this season. Sounds like a sensible gameplan.

Tragg
01-24-2010, 12:21 AM
I believe that Ozzie has always wanted a team that can steal, hit n run, and make things happen without being dependent on the home run ..
I agree - and that's fine if you get top-quality speed players. Unfortunately, the Sox haven't had that sort of talent since the 1960s, although it doesn't stop Guillen from trying to force it, such as in 2007, when he created baseball's most impotent offense in the process. Fortunately, there are no Wises, Owens' or Estads on the roster. ( Guillen has this affectation for Kotsay - well, he's better than Wise or Owens anyway)

NardiWasHere
01-24-2010, 11:11 AM
I don't understand how being bad at DH is somehow a good thing.

It's a shame too. This team is close to being good. To waste it by DH-ing Omar Vizquel is just depressing.

Lip Man 1
01-24-2010, 06:25 PM
http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/01/guilen-maintains-stance-on-rotationing-dhs.html

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
01-24-2010, 06:47 PM
It's a shame too. This team is close to being good. To waste it by DH-ing Omar Vizquel is just depressing.

Ozzie is an idiot if he DHs Vizquel, who should only play 3B, SS and 2B. Without a pure DH on the roster, I rotate it among the best hitters on the roster (Jones and Kotsay aren't among them, but are solid defensively), to keep them hitting in as many games as possible. Given the roster as it stands now, I'd break up the DH starts this way:

Quentin: 82 (Jones in RF when Quentin is DH)
Paulie: 40 (Kotsay at 1B when Paulie is DH)
Beckham: 25 (Vizquel at 2B when Beckham is DH)
Rios: 15 (Jones in CF when Rios is DH)

russ99
01-24-2010, 07:05 PM
Ozzie is an idiot if he DHs Vizquel, who should only play 3B, SS and 2B. Without a pure DH on the roster, I rotate it among the best hitters on the roster (Jones and Kotsay aren't among them, but are solid defensively), to keep them hitting in as many games as possible. Given the roster as it stands now, I'd break up the DH starts this way:

Quentin: 82 (Jones in RF when Quentin is DH)
Paulie: 40 (Kotsay at 1B when Paulie is DH)
Beckham: 25 (Vizquel at 2B when Beckham is DH)
Rios: 15 (Jones in CF when Rios is DH)

Also, don't forget that Teahen can play 2B and the corner OF spots while both Vizquel and Beckham can go back to 3B. I'd expect other DHs when Vizquel plays at 2B.

Rios is a very good fielder at all OF positions, so I'd expect the Jones/Kotsay (or whoever else we may get) platoon to be used the last two situatons.

JB98
01-24-2010, 08:16 PM
Ozzie is an idiot if he DHs Vizquel, who should only play 3B, SS and 2B. Without a pure DH on the roster, I rotate it among the best hitters on the roster (Jones and Kotsay aren't among them, but are solid defensively), to keep them hitting in as many games as possible. Given the roster as it stands now, I'd break up the DH starts this way:

Quentin: 82 (Jones in RF when Quentin is DH)
Paulie: 40 (Kotsay at 1B when Paulie is DH)
Beckham: 25 (Vizquel at 2B when Beckham is DH)
Rios: 15 (Jones in CF when Rios is DH)

Frater, I'm not sure I'd put Andruw Jones in CF at this stage of his career. Maybe put him there in spring training a little bit to see if he can still handle the position. In any case, I think Rios is our best defensive outfielder. When he's in the lineup, he needs to be in the field. I wouldn't DH him.

If there's gonna be a DH rotation among players currently on the team, it should be between Jones, Quentin and Paulie.

soxinem1
01-24-2010, 08:27 PM
Frater, I'm not sure I'd put Andruw Jones in CF at this stage of his career. Maybe put him there in spring training a little bit to see if he can still handle the position. In any case, I think Rios is our best defensive outfielder. When he's in the lineup, he needs to be in the field. I wouldn't DH him.

If there's gonna be a DH rotation among players currently on the team, it should be between Jones, Quentin and Paulie.

Rios will be playing the most demanding defensive OF spot, counted on to hit and score runs, and steal bases.

He will benefit from a few games as DH here and there.

JB98
01-24-2010, 08:30 PM
Rios will be playing the most demanding defensive OF spot, counted on to hit and score runs, and steal bases.

He will benefit from a few games as DH here and there.

If he needs a day off, just give him the day off.

Brian26
01-24-2010, 08:31 PM
Backup CF will probably be Jones based on what was discussed this weekend. Kenny made a comment about Pierre's arm on Saturday, and today Farmer or Stone mentioned that Kotsay can no longer play CF because of his back. Nix may not make the team. Jones might be the backup by default.

Frater Perdurabo
01-24-2010, 08:31 PM
Rios will be playing the most demanding defensive OF spot, counted on to hit and score runs, and steal bases.

He will benefit from a few games as DH here and there.

That's what I was thinking, too.

If Rios is going to DH 15 games, I'd make sure all 15 were at the Cell, where the gaps are small. For the same reason, I'd like Quentin to do most of his DH-ing on the road.

JB98
01-24-2010, 08:35 PM
Backup CF will probably be Jones based on what was discussed this weekend. Kenny made a comment about Pierre's arm on Saturday, and today Farmer or Stone mentioned that Kotsay can no longer play CF because of his back. Nix may not make the team. Jones might be the backup by default.

That strikes me as odd. He can play LF and RF, but he can't play CF because of his back? How is CF harder on one's back than LF or RF? :scratch:

I agree with Kenny's comments about Pierre's arm. However, Pierre still has the range necessary to play CF, and I think he is a better backup option there than Jones or Kotsay.

Dibbs
01-24-2010, 11:34 PM
I think people who make rash claims on who should be fired, should be fired from posting.:tongue:

How about I fire myself from posting if Jones/Kotsay/Vizquel turn out to be a successful rotating DH or whatever Ozzie the genius calls it. :smile:

pudge
01-25-2010, 06:43 PM
I don't even care so much about Vizquel DH'ing some games, but is anyone else bothered by the comment that just because he's a "Hall of Famer" he shouldn't have to fill in a few innings in an 11-0 blowout? What is he on the team for if not to fill in when we need him? Why are these guys "too big" to play a few garbage innings? That bothers me more than anything, are we worried about hurting feelings or winning a freakin' division?

Rdy2PlayBall
01-25-2010, 07:01 PM
Some of you have to realize Ozzie may be saying these things to protect his players. He may think his DH situation SUCKS and is telling KW get me a DH now. Maybe this is a way to get better deals out there in the trade market.

just my opinion... I don't like getting riled up over this stuff when we'd probably only be seeing 20rbis less with more runs scored out of our current DH staff.

DickAllen72
01-25-2010, 07:02 PM
I don't even care so much about Vizquel DH'ing some games, but is anyone else bothered by the comment that just because he's a "Hall of Famer" he shouldn't have to fill in a few innings in an 11-0 blowout? What is he on the team for if not to fill in when we need him? Why are these guys "too big" to play a few garbage innings? That bothers me more than anything, are we worried about hurting feelings or winning a freakin' division?
I had similar thoughts when I read his quote about that.

kittle42
01-25-2010, 09:21 PM
we'd probably only be seeing 20rbis less with more runs scored out of our current DH staff.

This projection really has no basis in reality.

Craig Grebeck
01-25-2010, 09:22 PM
This projection really has no basis in reality.
None do--but most at least aspire to. This one clearly does not.

bacon
01-25-2010, 09:37 PM
I also don't see the utility in going into the season with a glaring hole and a plan to just acquire someone mid-season when the price rises dramatically for such deals. Just ****ing sign Jim Thome for $2 million and if he sucks, get someone else. Don't go with Vizquel/Kotsay/Jones and when they suck get someone else.

Thome is out...

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=4858083

thomas35forever
01-25-2010, 09:47 PM
Thome is out...

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=4858083
Let the bitching commence.

I've been quiet on the subject so far, but DH is the one area on the team I'm concerned with. I hope that hole or committee or whatever it is doesn't hurt the Sox because until proven otherwise, I still think the Twins are the team to beat in the division.