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View Full Version : Will Buehrle make the HOF?


esbrechtel
01-20-2010, 10:48 PM
All this HOF talk of who makes it and who wont has me wondering what do people here think about Buehrle's chances on making the hall.

Not too many pitchers have both a no hitter and a perfect game. While those two good games doesn't warrant the hall he also was a main piece in at least 1 World Series Championship.

He currently has 135 wins in 10 seasons. If he were to average 15 wins a season he would have to pitch 11 more seasons to hit 300 (putting him at 42). He has stated that he doesn't want to be that guy pitching so late in his career do people buy that?

Dub25
01-20-2010, 11:04 PM
All this HOF talk of who makes it and who wont has me wondering what do people here think about Buehrle's chances on making the hall.

Not too many pitchers have both a no hitter and a perfect game. While those two good games doesn't warrant the hall he also was a main piece in at least 1 World Series Championship.

He currently has 135 wins in 10 seasons. If he were to average 15 wins a season he would have to pitch 11 more seasons to hit 300 (putting him at 42). He has stated that he doesn't want to be that guy pitching so late in his career do people buy that?

I didn't vote because I think it is too early to say. I love Mark since he has been here... heck one of my dogs is named Buehrle. I had to correct the vet because they tried to spell it Burley. Then they said what kind of name is that? Jerks. Anyway, I think he can be but I'm afraid he might retire to a tree stand in the woods to hunt deer to soon.

DumpJerry
01-20-2010, 11:11 PM
He and Randy Johnson are the only pitchers with a no-hitter and a separate perfect game who is not in the HoF. That will change in five years.

soxfanreggie
01-20-2010, 11:27 PM
He and Randy Johnson are the only pitchers with a no-hitter and a separate perfect game who is not in the HoF. That will change in five years.

He has the "stuff" to win crucial games and throw no-hitters, but I'm not sure he pitches long enough to get enough wins to his credit. Unless he has a few more All-Star apperances or a Cy Young winning season, it might be a hard sell to some voters.

Dub25
01-20-2010, 11:43 PM
He has the "stuff" to win crucial games and throw no-hitters, but I'm not sure he pitches long enough to get enough wins to his credit. Unless he has a few more All-Star apperances or a Cy Young winning season, it might be a hard sell to some voters.

Well said. Right now, is he Jimmy Key?

Zisk77
01-20-2010, 11:46 PM
It depends on how long Mark wants to play. If he retires at the end of his contract then, no. If he wants to pitch into his 40's then he could win 300 games and be a shoe-in.

ewokpelts
01-21-2010, 09:17 AM
he's a borderline candidate. I voted yes, but it may take 9 or 12 years for him to get in.

Durable starter. high winnign percentage, no hitter/perfect game. WS ring(and save). if he can hit 250 wins, he'll have a good shot.

DSpivack
01-21-2010, 10:19 AM
A HOFer to me should be a guy who is clearly among the top of his sport at the time. Buehrle has always been good, but never great. I don't think he's a HOFer.

haganaga
01-21-2010, 10:48 AM
Well said. Right now, is he Jimmy Key?
Jimmy Key. What's he like, 50? I could hit him.

eastchicagosoxfan
01-21-2010, 10:48 AM
I voted no. He needs several more good seasons. The past four seasons he's won 50 games. He needs a five year stretch similiar to his 2001-2005 seasons. He won 81 games over those five seasons. If he pitches long enough, say 10-12 more seasons, he would have a great chance if he averages 14-15 wins a year. He hasn't averaged that figure his past four seasons, so it's no sure thing he'll pitch better in the future. Buehrle has also indicated that won't pitch fo several more seasons. He can certainly change his mind. I think there is a wild card aspect to Buerhle; he's been unhittable. I can see him with more no hitters. Would six more seasons and a career record of 225-165 with four no hitters get him elected?

Railsplitter
01-21-2010, 10:56 AM
No. He'll need a 20 win season, and a Cy Young before we can talk about that.

1917
01-21-2010, 10:58 AM
I voted NO, not because I don't want him too, I just think the way that the HOF is, I don't see it happening, UNLESS he gets 300 wins, which I doubt. The only outside chance he has is if he has a CY Young to add to his resume.

eriqjaffe
01-21-2010, 03:28 PM
A HOFer to me should be a guy who is clearly among the top of his sport at the time. Buehrle has always been good, but never great. I don't think he's a HOFer."

Buehrle's a very good pitcher, but not really HoF caliber.

I see his chances of getting into the HoF as far less than those of Jack Morris, and I honestly don't see Jack Morris getting in.

pythons007
01-21-2010, 03:48 PM
I don't think anyone is going to see another 300 game winner in MLB history due to 5 man rotations, reduced innnings, pitch counts, bullpens, ect. Eventually you're going to see the 300 number come down lower as a factor for HOF voting, IMHO.

Buehrle is a good pitcher, he's never had a dominating year. He seems to just produce without anyone knowing it. When he threw his no hitter and perfect game, it was second hand news almost in Chicago. They way the media treated this I thought was terrible.

I think the two no hitters he's thrown will help him when he does finally retire. I think he'll be a borderline when he finally retires. Maybe he'll be the Jim Rice of pitchers.

Everyone on here suggesting that he's going to win 300 games is out of their minds...

mshawks
01-21-2010, 03:57 PM
Buerhle is simply NOT a great pitcher. He has had good to very good seasons, but he isn't even a borderline candidate. I bet he'll get less than 10% of the vote on his first try. After looking at their career stats, the Jimmy Key comparison is right on.

Domeshot17
01-21-2010, 04:11 PM
Most people here have it right. He is a white sox hall of fame guy, but clearly not mlb HOF calibur. Especially when you consider a couple of his "all star" seasons (qouted it because in 06 he only got to go because Ozzie picked the staff) he fell apart in the 2nd half. He hasn't DOMINATED since early in his career, no cy young award, and he isn't a stats guy, and stats get you in the HOF. He is basically a young Jamie Moyer.

hi im skot
01-21-2010, 04:14 PM
When he threw his no hitter and perfect game, it was second hand news almost in Chicago. They way the media treated this I thought was terrible.


That's just flat out wrong.

mshawks
01-21-2010, 05:04 PM
That's just flat out wrong.


I thought the perfect game got the right amount of local and national attention. It was the lead story on local news casts and Sportscenter and it made the front page in all the papers. What else could have been done?

pythons007
01-21-2010, 05:14 PM
That's just flat out wrong.

I thought the perfect game got the right amount of local and national attention. It was the lead story on local news casts and Sportscenter and it made the front page in all the papers. What else could have been done?

I may have exaggerated it a tad, but I remember the likes of the boob on Chicago Tribune Live saying that Kerry Wood's 20K game was just as impressive. :puking:

Noneck
01-21-2010, 05:17 PM
Most people here have it right. He is a white sox hall of fame guy, but clearly not mlb HOF calibur. Especially when you consider a couple of his "all star" seasons (qouted it because in 06 he only got to go because Ozzie picked the staff) he fell apart in the 2nd half. He hasn't DOMINATED since early in his career, no cy young award, and he isn't a stats guy, and stats get you in the HOF. He is basically a young Jamie Moyer.

I look at him and see a Kenny Rogers-Jamie Moyer combo. That doesn't get you into the Hall, I agree with you.

KenBerryGrab
01-21-2010, 05:32 PM
I don't care whether he makes it to the Hall if he can take our Sox to the postseason another time or three.

doublem23
01-21-2010, 05:59 PM
and he isn't a stats guy, and stats get you in the HOF.

That is absolutely not true, the BBWAA doesn't understand any stats beyond AVE, HR, RBI, W-L, and ERA.

Save McCuddy's
01-21-2010, 06:32 PM
No shame in the hall of very good.

doublem23
01-21-2010, 07:16 PM
This will all depend on Mark's desire to keep playing, but the fact that he has never spent a day on the DL during his 10-year-MLB career should tell you the kind of ridiculous durability he has.

And, to keep the Jamie Moyer comparisons in perspective, Moyer at age 30: 166 G, 136 GS, 852 IP, 46-63, 525 K, 1.455 WHIP

Mark Buehrle at age 30: 326 G, 301 GS, 2061 IP, 135-97, 1188 K, 1.268 WHIP

Comparing Mark Buehrle to Jamie Moyer is like comparing Frank Thomas to Chili Davis.

soxfanreggie
01-21-2010, 11:49 PM
That is absolutely not true, the BBWAA doesn't understand any stats beyond AVE, HR, RBI, W-L, and ERA.

Aren't those still stats though?

Nellie_Fox
01-22-2010, 01:00 AM
That is absolutely not true, the BBWAA doesn't understand any stats beyond AVE, HR, RBI, W-L, and ERA.I heard them discussing the BBWAA voters on XM MLB Homeplate recently, and they said that membership had been extended to some "new media" types, including some SABRmetricians.

doublem23
01-22-2010, 01:23 AM
I heard them discussing the BBWAA voters on XM MLB Homeplate recently, and they said that membership had been extended to some "new media" types, including some SABRmetricians.

Yeah, wow, they have what? 5 members that even understand what a basic slash line is now? At least 90% of the BBWAA are idiots like Corky Simpson (http://deadspin.com/5125268/octogenarian-writer-leaves-rickey-henderson-off-hof-ballot-hilarity-ensues) (who didn't vote for Rickey Henderson for the HOF last year but did manage to squeeze in a vote for Matt Williams), and yet they hold the keys to the Hall of Fame.

If you want to learn something about baseball, arguably, the worst group to seek information from is the BBWAA. They don't know ****.

SOX ADDICT '73
01-22-2010, 01:33 AM
What else could have been done?
Parade.

Zisk77
01-22-2010, 08:11 AM
The guy Mark is comparable to is Tom Glavine. If he plays as long as Glavine did he will amass 300 wins, which will put him in the hall of fame. The question will be whether mark will want to play that long & will he wear a sox or cardinal cap on his plaque.

cards press box
01-22-2010, 09:52 AM
He and Randy Johnson are the only pitchers with a no-hitter and a separate perfect game who is not in the HoF. That will change in five years.

And the other four are in the Hall of Fame:

Sandy Koufax
Jim Bunning
Addie Joss
Cy Young

As you say, Johnson will certainly be elected to the Hall of Fame. Given Buerhle's inclusion on this highly exclusive list (as well as his other accomplishments), I have to think that Buerhle is at least in the Hall of Fame conversation.

tick53
01-22-2010, 12:55 PM
If he was eligible today, the answer is no but he has a lot of time ahead of him yet.

Warriorjan
01-22-2010, 02:02 PM
I don't think he'll pitch long enough to merit consideration. I believe him when he says he won't be around as long as some of these other guys have stuck around. He also needs a couple of dominant years.

khan
01-22-2010, 02:41 PM
With Jim Rice and Andre Dawson in, it's already the "Hall of Pretty Good."

So with a few more years, Buehrle will be considered a "pretty-good-for-long-enough-so-we'll-let-him-in" type of guy.

In any case, by the time Buehrle will be eligible, I fully expect most [if not all] newspapers to be out of business, so maybe there will be another mechanism to vote players into or out of the Hall of Pretty Good.

downstairs
01-22-2010, 02:43 PM
With Jim Rice and Andre Dawson in, it's already the "Hall of Pretty Good."

So with a few more years, Buehrle will be considered a "pretty-good-for-long-enough-so-we'll-let-him-in" type of guy.

In any case, by the time Buehrle will be eligible, I fully expect most [if not all] newspapers to be out of business, so maybe there will be another mechanism to vote players into or out of the Hall of Pretty Good.

I gotta agree with you. By the time Burls retires, I'll be in the hall of fame for being a fairly good fan.

guillen4life13
01-22-2010, 04:00 PM
Buehrle is somewhere between Tom Glavine and David Wells. I don't think he's far enough into Glavine territory... yet. He's had a couple mediocre-bad seasons. If Buehrle pitched better in 2006, the Sox likely go into the playoffs instead of Detroit).

But, I do think that Buehrle is going to get better. He doesn't rely on great physical attributes. He just pitches smart and at a fast pace. He will only get smarter, and I think his fast pace will stay on for a long time.

It's really up to him, but if he were to sustain his performance and stay healthy, he will get it. He isn't a major star, but his accomplishments may start to pile up. Especially ERA and IP. He may retire with 260-280 wins (if he stays around through age 38). If he can win another World Series, go to 5 more ASG, and maybe average 16 wins with a sub 3.70 ERA average and 200+ IP, he will have a legit shot. That's another 128 wins (263 for the career) with great endurance. Add another no-no and he would be in business.

If the Sox can, as a whole, play more consistently on offense and be more consistent with bullpen pitching, Buehrle will have one more more 20 win seasons. His win total will increase. I don't think he'd be able to win 300 unless he pitched into his early 40's. Hey may be durable enough to do it, but he will retire earlier than that.

soxinem1
01-27-2010, 11:26 AM
He and Randy Johnson are the only pitchers with a no-hitter and a separate perfect game who is not in the HoF. That will change in five years.

If he pitched as long as Jamie Moyer, which he already has stated he will not, he might have a chance at 300, but he would have to start winning more.

Buehrle has not won a lot of games in the last four seasons. He's only averaged 12.5 wins in that time frame. He would really have to pick up the pace.

The no-no (how close it came to being a perfecto too!!) and perfect game are nice, but the overall numbers are not there. Not even close.

chunk
01-27-2010, 11:46 AM
If he pitched as long as Jamie Moyer, which he already has stated he will not, he might have a chance at 300, but he would have to start winning more.

Buehrle has not won a lot of games in the last four seasons. He's only averaged 12.5 wins in that time frame. He would really have to pick up the pace.

The no-no (how close it came to being a perfecto too!!) and perfect game are nice, but the overall numbers are not there. Not even close.

Buerhle is funny, because he's the prototypical BBWAA hof pick. Pretty good numbers, but the history is there with the no hitter, perfect game, WS win (and save). He doesn't have the great numbers, but he has what the writers like. Because remember, the BBWAA is made up of mostly idiots who care more about narratives than actual facts. So depending on how much longer he pitches and how much the membership of the BBWAA changes, he actually might have a good shot, regardless of whether he deserves it.

TheOldRoman
01-27-2010, 11:57 AM
Buerhle is funny, because he's the prototypical BBWAA hof pick. Pretty good numbers, but the history is there with the no hitter, perfect game, WS win (and save). He doesn't have the great numbers, but he has what the writers like. Because remember, the BBWAA is made up of mostly idiots who care more about narratives than actual facts. So depending on how much longer he pitches and how much the membership of the BBWAA changes, he actually might have a good shot, regardless of whether he deserves it.I don't know if you mean he won a game in the series or just that he won a ring. He actually didn't pick up a victory in game 2. Bobby blew the save and got the win.

I agree that it depends on how long Mark plays. If he pitched in NY or Boston, he would already be pretty much automatic barring an immediate fall off, but that is besides the point. If he pitches 8-10 more years and stays at around the same level for most of them, maybe picking up another no-no, he has a good chance. He definately has a shot at 300 wins if he wants to pitch that long, but right now it doesn't look like he will.

pythons007
01-27-2010, 12:10 PM
If he pitches another 10 years and repeats what he's already done, he'll sit at 270 wins. He has had a drop off in wins the last couple years. Unless he pulls a Gregg Maddux and can raddle of a decade worth of 15+ wins, he'll never get to 300. I'd love to see him in the HOF, I love the guy. He is my favorite Sox player, but I just can't see him or anyone for that matter reaching 300 wins.

How the game has changed in the past 10.5 years and how teams rely so heavily on the bullpen, you're not going to see a 300 game winner for a long long time.

jabrch
01-27-2010, 12:12 PM
If he retires today - no way. But he has a lot of time until the final letter is written in this story.

chunk
01-28-2010, 01:54 AM
I don't know if you mean he won a game in the series or just that he won a ring. He actually didn't pick up a victory in game 2. Bobby blew the save and got the win.

I agree that it depends on how long Mark plays. If he pitched in NY or Boston, he would already be pretty much automatic barring an immediate fall off, but that is besides the point. If he pitches 8-10 more years and stays at around the same level for most of them, maybe picking up another no-no, he has a good chance. He definately has a shot at 300 wins if he wants to pitch that long, but right now it doesn't look like he will.

Yeah I meant that he has the ring. He fits everything the "narrative" types care about. If he was with Boston or the Yankees he'd pretty much be the pitcher version of Jim Rice.

soxinem1
01-28-2010, 10:53 AM
Yeah I meant that he has the ring. He fits everything the "narrative" types care about. If he was with Boston or the Yankees he'd pretty much be the pitcher version of Jim Rice.

Buehrle is a light version of Andy Petitte, and he is not HOF material.

I am sure NY writers will hype him though, HGH and all.

Tragg
01-28-2010, 12:11 PM
Phil Niekro, Gaylord Perry weren't great pitchers, to name 2..
Bert Blyeleven, whom many people think should be in, wasn't great.
Tom Glavine wasn't great. He'll be in.
MB isn't great, but if he pitches long enough, he should get in based on the above standard.

veeter
01-28-2010, 02:33 PM
I voted yes, but it all depends on how long he decides to pitch.