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View Full Version : Thoughts on Frank Thomas and being a first ballot HOFer


kruzer31
01-14-2010, 01:45 AM
There is no doubt in my mind that Frank Thomas should be voted in on his first year of eligibility but there are a couple factors that I am worried about.

1. Will voters put him in the same year with Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, and Jeff Kent. ( I dont think Mussina will get in on first try or ever for that matter)

2. Will the voters penalize him for playing in the Steroid Era even though he has never been linked and been an advocate against steroids.

3. The DH stigma that some voters like to attach to players even though Frank played alot of first base in his career.

The numbers don't lie. This is a man who put up some historical numbers while doing it all clean.

.301 career average, 521 home runs, and 1704 RBIs. 22nd all time in RBIs, take away Steroid linked players and he is 18th all time.

That is more RBIs then, Ernie Banks, Reggie Jackson, Mike Schmidt, Harmon Killabrew, Willie McCovey, Al Kaline, Willie Stargell, Mickey Mantle, Eddie Matthews and a hand full of other CURRENT HOFers.

The 521 Home Runs puts him tied for 19th all time. Take away the Steroid players and that ranks him 13th all time. Since Mike Schmidt and Eddie Murray, Frank Thomas, Ken Griffey, and Jim Thome are the only players not linked to steroids to accomplish this feat.

Frank won 2 MVP awards in his career and would have won another in 2000 had Jason Giambi not been juiced up. Looking back on a career, the voters must factor in that Frank WOULD have had 3 MVPs. He did it clean.

Looking at the number of ALL STAR games that Frank made in his career (5), I had to dig deeper because this number is so low.

In 3 of his more dominant seasons as a hitter he was robbed once again by Steroid users and the fact that managers had to select 1 player from every team. Case in point

2000- One of Franks best seasons, the admitted Steroid user Jason Giambi made it over him. McGriff and Sweenys numbers did not compare but a Devil Ray and Royal had to be picked.

2003- I can remember being so upset that Frank was left off the team in his home ball park where he would have qualified for the HR Derby as well. Once again admitted Steroid User Giambi made it, the only Royal that had to make it was Mike Sweeny. Somehow Carl Everett gets picked as a White Sox at DH over Frank and the Tigers only rep was Dimitri Young. Dimitri Young over the Big Hurt in his home park still makes me sick.

2006- When Frank went to Oakland he had a fantastic season and another admitted Steroid User David Ortiz was selected over him.

So, to the HOFers, they need to consider this and at MINIMUM Frank should have been in 8 All Star games if you dig deep enough.

Frank is the only player in all of ML Baseball to speak with Senator Mitchell about Steroids when the union advised against it. THE ONLY PLAYER who did so. He has been an advocate against steroids since the early 90s and hopefully he gets rewarded in 2014.

With all this said, I wish Frank would put himself out there more. I know he did work for TBS and was a bit rusty but when he did some work for Comcast last year he was fantastic. He was more comfortable, is great on camera, and very personable. He needs to get involved with ESPN or MLB Network and give his opinions on the likes of McGwire, Canseco, and others. This could put the stigma of his percieved bad attitude he had as a player behind him. He needs to continue to make his case of doing it clean. Bring more attention to his career and numbers over the years. Maybe he could approach Bud Selig about a program that educates kids on the dangers of steroids. He would be the perfect pitch man going forward with the fight against Steroids.

Frank, you are a first ballot HOFer in my mind, I just hope the voters really dig deep into your career and know how good you really were, doing it the right way.

Thanks Guys, JEFF

Jpgr91
01-14-2010, 01:57 AM
I do not understand the hang up the writers have about electing players in on the first ballot. They did not elect Roberto Alomar on the first ballot this year even though he is considered to be one of the best 2b ever. I think the only way that Frank gets in first ballot is if there is some sort of uprising in the BBWA because Frank is a perfect example of a clean player that put up big numbers in a generation of dirty players.

Whitesox029
01-14-2010, 03:06 AM
I do not understand the hang up the writers have about electing players in on the first ballot. They did not elect Roberto Alomar on the first ballot this year even though he is considered to be one of the best 2b ever. I think the only way that Frank gets in first ballot is if there is some sort of uprising in the BBWA because Frank is a perfect example of a clean player that put up big numbers in a generation of dirty players.
...And I honestly think that's a possibility. I think writers will be extremely relieved to finally be able to vote for a true home run hitter who played the bulk of his career in the 90s without all the steroid hangups that are attached to Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, and co. The same will happen for Jim Thome in his first year.

Shoeless
01-14-2010, 07:17 AM
...And I honestly think that's a possibility. I think writers will be extremely relieved to finally be able to vote for a true home run hitter who played the bulk of his career in the 90s without all the steroid hangups that are attached to Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, and co. The same will happen for Jim Thome in his first year.

Frank was more than a clean player. Frank was actively against PEDs and pushed for more stringent testing throughout the duration of his career. Frank was the only player to participate in the Mitchell report IIRC. That being said, the writers can be idiots so who knows anymore?

TheCommander
01-14-2010, 08:27 AM
There is no doubt in my mind that Frank Thomas should be voted in on his first year of eligibility but there are a couple factors that I am worried about.

1. Will voters put him in the same year with Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, and Jeff Kent. ( I dont think Mussina will get in on first try or ever for that matter)

2. Will the voters penalize him for playing in the Steroid Era even though he has never been linked and been an advocate against steroids.

3. The DH stigma that some voters like to attach to players even though Frank played alot of first base in his career.

The numbers don't lie. This is a man who put up some historical numbers while doing it all clean.

.301 career average, 521 home runs, and 1704 RBIs. 22nd all time in RBIs, take away Steroid linked players and he is 18th all time.

That is more RBIs then, Ernie Banks, Reggie Jackson, Mike Schmidt, Harmon Killabrew, Willie McCovey, Al Kaline, Willie Stargell, Mickey Mantle, Eddie Matthews and a hand full of other CURRENT HOFers.

The 521 Home Runs puts him tied for 19th all time. Take away the Steroid players and that ranks him 13th all time. Since Mike Schmidt and Eddie Murray, Frank Thomas, Ken Griffey, and Jim Thome are the only players not linked to steroids to accomplish this feat.

Frank won 2 MVP awards in his career and would have won another in 2000 had Jason Giambi not been juiced up. Looking back on a career, the voters must factor in that Frank WOULD have had 3 MVPs. He did it clean.

Looking at the number of ALL STAR games that Frank made in his career (5), I had to dig deeper because this number is so low.

In 3 of his more dominant seasons as a hitter he was robbed once again by Steroid users and the fact that managers had to select 1 player from every team. Case in point

2000- One of Franks best seasons, the admitted Steroid user Jason Giambi made it over him. McGriff and Sweenys numbers did not compare but a Devil Ray and Royal had to be picked.

2003- I can remember being so upset that Frank was left off the team in his home ball park where he would have qualified for the HR Derby as well. Once again admitted Steroid User Giambi made it, the only Royal that had to make it was Mike Sweeny. Somehow Carl Everett gets picked as a White Sox at DH over Frank and the Tigers only rep was Dimitri Young. Dimitri Young over the Big Hurt in his home park still makes me sick.

2006- When Frank went to Oakland he had a fantastic season and another admitted Steroid User David Ortiz was selected over him.

So, to the HOFers, they need to consider this and at MINIMUM Frank should have been in 8 All Star games if you dig deep enough.

Frank is the only player in all of ML Baseball to speak with Senator Mitchell about Steroids when the union advised against it. THE ONLY PLAYER who did so. He has been an advocate against steroids since the early 90s and hopefully he gets rewarded in 2014.

With all this said, I wish Frank would put himself out there more. I know he did work for TBS and was a bit rusty but when he did some work for Comcast last year he was fantastic. He was more comfortable, is great on camera, and very personable. He needs to get involved with ESPN or MLB Network and give his opinions on the likes of McGwire, Canseco, and others. This could put the stigma of his percieved bad attitude he had as a player behind him. He needs to continue to make his case of doing it clean. Bring more attention to his career and numbers over the years. Maybe he could approach Bud Selig about a program that educates kids on the dangers of steroids. He would be the perfect pitch man going forward with the fight against Steroids.

Frank, you are a first ballot HOFer in my mind, I just hope the voters really dig deep into your career and know how good you really were, doing it the right way.

Thanks Guys, JEFF

More numbers to add to your stat sheet:

-He is one of four players (Babe Ruth,Ted Williams and Mel Ott are the others) to have at least a .300 batting average, 500 home runs, 1,500 RBI, 1,000 runs and 1,500 walks in a career.

-Thomas is the only player in major league history to have seven consecutive seasons of a .300 average and at least 100 walks, 100 runs, 100 runs batted in, and 20 home runs (from 1991 to 1997). This includes 1994 when he only played 113 games due to the strike.

-There are only six other players in history who have both hit more home runs and have a higher career batting average than Thomas: Hank Aaron, Jimmie Foxx, Babe Ruth, Alex Rodriguez, Manny Ramirez, and Willie Mays.

:bandance:

voodoochile
01-14-2010, 08:28 AM
He's top 20 in runs created (runs + RBI - HR). Every eligible player in the top 50 is in the Hall. That may change when Barroid becomes eligible...

Edit: Obviously Rose is not in and I don't think Pamleiro has hit the ballot yet, but maybe I am wrong.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/RC_career.shtml

asindc
01-14-2010, 09:05 AM
Frank was one of the three best hitters of his era (along with Bonds and Griffey), and has hall of fame numbers that would be impressive in any era. Given that he not only has no suspicion of PEDs associated with his career, but that he aggressively advocated against their use, any suggestion that he is not a first ballot hall of famer is a sad commentary on the current state of hall of fame voting.

DSpivack
01-14-2010, 09:09 AM
Frank was one of the three best hitters of his era (along with Bonds and Griffey), and has hall of fame numbers that would be impressive in any era. Given that he not only has no suspicion of PEDs associated with his career, but that he aggressively advocated against their use, any suggestion that he is not a first ballot hall of famer is a sad commentary on the current state of hall of fame voting.

Do I think he should be a first-ballot HOFer? Yes.

But I don't think he will be. I think being a DH and the reputation of a 'bad attitude' will hurt him.

Warriorjan
01-14-2010, 09:40 AM
I think being on the same ballot as Maddux will hurt him, as Maddux will certainly get in on the first ballot and the writers aren't likely to put in two first ballot players when as a general rule they don't like to put anyone in on the first ballot.

BainesHOF
01-14-2010, 09:41 AM
Thanks for the research. I don't think there should be any question whether Frank should be a first-ballot HOFer. Sports writers aren't the smartest bunch, however. Their voting will be a reflection on them, though, not Frank. His numbers and clean record speak for themselves.

Plus he has a first-ballot nickname!

pmck003
01-14-2010, 09:43 AM
Looking at the number of ALL STAR games that Frank made in his career (5), I had to dig deeper because this number is so low.



I didn't realize that - what a joke. He finished in the top ten for mvp voting 9 times.

Jim Shorts
01-14-2010, 09:48 AM
Wow. Those numbers are just jaw dropping.

g0g0
01-14-2010, 10:00 AM
The thing that gets me about the DH is that it's really a "position." I mean, if you have it in the sport, you should be eligible for honors just like the next guy. Everybody knows some HOF inductees aren't as great as others. Some scoff at relievers. But the truth is MLB has it in the American League and everyone should have their numbers looked at according to their position.

Frank goes in on the first try to thunderous applause. :party:

voodoochile
01-14-2010, 10:25 AM
Remember, that half the time there was no DH at the ASG, so the low number of appearances is at least in part due to that.

SOXfnNlansing
01-14-2010, 10:55 AM
http://mlb.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=123245

We can add this link too. When you look at the bottom of the page, a person really can see how special this guy was.

Lip Man 1
01-14-2010, 10:55 AM
Thomas is also the largest player to ever win a batting title and is one of only 15 players to have won a batting title and hit over 450 home runs. All the others who did this are in the hall save for Bonds, Sheffield and himself.

(And we know that Bonds and Sheffield are going to have issues come up with their possibility of getting in)

Lip

kruzer31
01-14-2010, 10:57 AM
Thanks for the response guys...does anyone else remember being very ticked off when Frank was left off the 2000 and 2003 All Star game? Especially when it was in 2003 in his home ballpark. Man that still burns me

JEFF

tstrike2000
01-14-2010, 10:59 AM
Frank, I believe will be a first ballot HOF'er. Of course the DH thing hurts, but if baseball writers look at his body of work, along with his cooperation and/or volunteering of information during the time of the congressional hearings, that will put him in. I think, too coupled with the fact that guys like Jim Rice have set the bar lower and writers, I would think, are looking for respectable people to put in the Hall, to make up for guys like Sammy, McGwire, etc.

kruzer31
01-14-2010, 11:02 AM
Frank lost out on another Silver Slugger award at DH in 2006 because of David Ortiz taking steroids.

JEFF

spawn
01-14-2010, 11:17 AM
Do I think he should be a first-ballot HOFer? Yes.

But I don't think he will be. I think being a DH and the reputation of a 'bad attitude' will hurt him.
Not only that, but playing in the steroid era will hurt him as well. It's bull****, but I don't think any offensive player that played during that era will be enshrined on the first ballot. He's a first round HOF'er in my eyes.

TheOldRoman
01-14-2010, 11:23 AM
Frank was more than a clean player. Frank was actively against PEDs and pushed for more stringent testing throughout the duration of his career. Frank was the only player to participate in the Mitchell report IIRC. That being said, the writers can be idiots so who knows anymore?I don't think it will matter. The sports media is 1) is shameless, 2) cares little for facts, and 3) loves controversy. I guarantee there will be at least one irrelevant ESPN radio stooge claiming Thomas took roids just to get pub for his show. Aside from that, you will have a bunch of sportswriters who mention it but don't mention it about Frank, saying "Do we really know he didn't take steroids?" That will be just like when renowned piece of crap Steve Rosenbloom wrote a "DID CARLOS QUENTIN TAKE STEROIDS?!?! I never heard of him before this year. He probably didn't, but you never know" piece for the Trib in 2008.

Even though anyone with knowledge of the situation and common sense would see that Frank was explicitly against steroid use and clean himself, expect mediots to link him to it. I said previously that I don't think Frank will get in until his 3rd or 4th ballot, and that was before I knew Maddux was on the same first ballot. Frank deserves to go first ballot, but I don't think he has a chance.

SOXfnNlansing
01-14-2010, 11:49 AM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp_bat.cgi?I=thomafr04:Frank%20Thomas&st=career&compage=&age=

On the bottom, this shows Frank's career numbers compared to the average of 10 similar players. Looking at the numbers is impressive.

That Jimmie Foxx was a stud.

Stoky44
01-14-2010, 11:51 AM
...And I honestly think that's a possibility. I think writers will be extremely relieved to finally be able to vote for a true home run hitter who played the bulk of his career in the 90s without all the steroid hangups that are attached to Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, and co. The same will happen for Jim Thome in his first year.

I started a thread in the Roadhouse about this b/c I did not want to take over this thread with a thought.

DaveFeelsRight
01-14-2010, 12:13 PM
If Roberto Alomar didn't get in on his first try, then Thomas isn't getting in.

Smokey Burg
01-14-2010, 12:14 PM
Kruzer, excellent accumulation of stats and thanks for doing all our homework. Obviously his numbers don't lie and he deserves a first ballot entry IMHO. Unfortunately, the HOF doesn't send me a ballot. However, with Maddux and Glavine on the ballot, I think NL writers will be all over those two and may neglect everyone else, maybe a sympathy vote for Alomar because he didn't make it in this year. Also, in some exclusive NL cities, Frank has a rep of being primarily a DH and the nickname "Big Skirt" is well known. I'm hoping he gets in, but I'm not counting on it. Besides if the HOF continues to send ballots to writers like the moron and his ilk, common sense can be thrown right out the window.

FarmerAndy
01-14-2010, 12:23 PM
I still don't get why the DH thing should be considered in Frank's credentials for the hall.

Frank played in the the 90's and the 00's. In the 90's he was primarily a 1B. In the 00's he was primarily a DH. He'll be going into the hall mostly based on the #'s he put up in the 90's.


Career at 1B: .337 / .453 / .625
Career at DH: .275 / .394 / .505

Frank should be a 1st ballot HOF'er. But if it doesn't happen on the first try, nobody should be that upset. I think it's pretty common knowlege that the people who vote for the hall are not really a qualified bunch. In light of that, some of these things should be taken with a grain of salt.

Zisk77
01-14-2010, 12:26 PM
There is no doubt in my mind that Frank Thomas should be voted in on his first year of eligibility but there are a couple factors that I am worried about.

1. Will voters put him in the same year with Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, and Jeff Kent. ( I dont think Mussina will get in on first try or ever for that matter)

2. Will the voters penalize him for playing in the Steroid Era even though he has never been linked and been an advocate against steroids.

3. The DH stigma that some voters like to attach to players even though Frank played alot of first base in his career.

The numbers don't lie. This is a man who put up some historical numbers while doing it all clean.

.301 career average, 521 home runs, and 1704 RBIs. 22nd all time in RBIs, take away Steroid linked players and he is 18th all time.

That is more RBIs then, Ernie Banks, Reggie Jackson, Mike Schmidt, Harmon Killabrew, Willie McCovey, Al Kaline, Willie Stargell, Mickey Mantle, Eddie Matthews and a hand full of other CURRENT HOFers.

The 521 Home Runs puts him tied for 19th all time. Take away the Steroid players and that ranks him 13th all time. Since Mike Schmidt and Eddie Murray, Frank Thomas, Ken Griffey, and Jim Thome are the only players not linked to steroids to accomplish this feat.

Frank won 2 MVP awards in his career and would have won another in 2000 had Jason Giambi not been juiced up. Looking back on a career, the voters must factor in that Frank WOULD have had 3 MVPs. He did it clean.

Looking at the number of ALL STAR games that Frank made in his career (5), I had to dig deeper because this number is so low.

In 3 of his more dominant seasons as a hitter he was robbed once again by Steroid users and the fact that managers had to select 1 player from every team. Case in point

2000- One of Franks best seasons, the admitted Steroid user Jason Giambi made it over him. McGriff and Sweenys numbers did not compare but a Devil Ray and Royal had to be picked.

2003- I can remember being so upset that Frank was left off the team in his home ball park where he would have qualified for the HR Derby as well. Once again admitted Steroid User Giambi made it, the only Royal that had to make it was Mike Sweeny. Somehow Carl Everett gets picked as a White Sox at DH over Frank and the Tigers only rep was Dimitri Young. Dimitri Young over the Big Hurt in his home park still makes me sick.

2006- When Frank went to Oakland he had a fantastic season and another admitted Steroid User David Ortiz was selected over him.

So, to the HOFers, they need to consider this and at MINIMUM Frank should have been in 8 All Star games if you dig deep enough.

Frank is the only player in all of ML Baseball to speak with Senator Mitchell about Steroids when the union advised against it. THE ONLY PLAYER who did so. He has been an advocate against steroids since the early 90s and hopefully he gets rewarded in 2014.

With all this said, I wish Frank would put himself out there more. I know he did work for TBS and was a bit rusty but when he did some work for Comcast last year he was fantastic. He was more comfortable, is great on camera, and very personable. He needs to get involved with ESPN or MLB Network and give his opinions on the likes of McGwire, Canseco, and others. This could put the stigma of his percieved bad attitude he had as a player behind him. He needs to continue to make his case of doing it clean. Bring more attention to his career and numbers over the years. Maybe he could approach Bud Selig about a program that educates kids on the dangers of steroids. He would be the perfect pitch man going forward with the fight against Steroids.

Frank, you are a first ballot HOFer in my mind, I just hope the voters really dig deep into your career and know how good you really were, doing it the right way.

Thanks Guys, JEFF


Actually Everett was the Texas rangers Representative but he got traded to the Sox just prior to the All-star game and he elected to wear the sox uniform.

g0g0
01-14-2010, 12:59 PM
http://www.baseball-reference.com/friv/scomp_bat.cgi?I=thomafr04:Frank%20Thomas&st=career&compage=&age=

On the bottom, this shows Frank's career numbers compared to the average of 10 similar players. Looking at the numbers is impressive.

That Jimmie Foxx was a stud.

Nice! He measures up quite favorably. Thanks for the stats.

kruzer31
01-14-2010, 01:05 PM
Kruzer, excellent accumulation of stats and thanks for doing all our homework. Obviously his numbers don't lie and he deserves a first ballot entry IMHO. Unfortunately, the HOF doesn't send me a ballot. However, with Maddux and Glavine on the ballot, I think NL writers will be all over those two and may neglect everyone else, maybe a sympathy vote for Alomar because he didn't make it in this year. Also, in some exclusive NL cities, Frank has a rep of being primarily a DH and the nickname "Big Skirt" is well known. I'm hoping he gets in, but I'm not counting on it. Besides if the HOF continues to send ballots to writers like the moron and his ilk, common sense can be thrown right out the window.


Im assuming Alomar gets in before 2014, the 2011 and 2012 ballot will produce no first time HOFers, and I believe none will ever get in that make there debut in 2011.

What is funny to me is how when they mention the first time eligibles for 2011 on MLB Network they have the nerve to put up Al Leiters name and some highlights. Lets be real here people, he has a 0 percent chance of getting in. Just cuz he is a host doesnt mean you have to try to include him.

kruzer31
01-14-2010, 01:06 PM
Actually Everett was the Texas rangers Representative but he got traded to the Sox just prior to the All-star game and he elected to wear the sox uniform.


Still shouldnt have made the team over Frank

TheOldRoman
01-14-2010, 01:39 PM
Aside from that, you will have a bunch of sportswriters who mention it but don't mention it about Frank, saying "Do we really know he didn't take steroids?" That will be just like when renowned piece of crap Steve Rosenbloom wrote a "DID CARLOS QUENTIN TAKE STEROIDS?!?! I never heard of him before this year. He probably didn't, but you never know" piece for the Trib in 2008.

I made the mistake of reading Rick Morrissey today. Morrissey is a well-known Cub appologist, so this should be no surprise. In trashing LaRussa, he mentions that it is a bad idea to have McGwire working with Pujols, whose performance has "raised ebrows". He then says this won't get Pujols out from the "cloud of suspicion". :rolleyes: I have never heard anyone link Pujols to PEDs, other than an erroneous report a few years ago he was in the Mitchell Report. If the press can do this crap to Pujols, they can and will do it to Thomas.

Foulke You
01-14-2010, 02:36 PM
2003- I can remember being so upset that Frank was left off the team in his home ball park where he would have qualified for the HR Derby as well. Once again admitted Steroid User Giambi made it, the only Royal that had to make it was Mike Sweeny. Somehow Carl Everett gets picked as a White Sox at DH over Frank and the Tigers only rep was Dimitri Young. Dimitri Young over the Big Hurt in his home park still makes me sick.

I agree with just about all your points on Frank but I just wanted to clarify something about the 2003 All Star Pick of Carl Everett. It's been a while so you may not recall, Carl Everett started that season as a Texas Ranger playing CF and DH for them and had a fantastic first half which got him selected to the All Star Team as a Ranger. Kenny Williams made the blockbuster trades about a week or two before the All Star Game that brought both Carl Everett and Roberto Alomar to the South Side. Carl Everett thus became an extra White Sox all-star by default so he actually wasn't chosen over Frank directly. I still agree that Thomas was snubbed for that All Star Game but this isn't something that was unique to Frank. It is something that plagues all great White Sox players. Our team struggles to get national recognition and therefore get screwed in All Star selections annually.

kruzer31
01-14-2010, 02:43 PM
I agree with just about all your points on Frank but I just wanted to clarify something about the 2003 All Star Pick of Carl Everett. It's been a while so you may not recall, Carl Everett started that season as a Texas Ranger playing CF and DH for them and had a fantastic first half which got him selected to the All Star Team as a Ranger. Kenny Williams made the blockbuster trades about a week or two before the All Star Game that brought both Carl Everett and Roberto Alomar to the South Side. Carl Everett thus became an extra White Sox all-star by default so he actually wasn't chosen over Frank directly. I still agree that Thomas was snubbed for that All Star Game but this isn't something that was unique to Frank. It is something that plagues all great White Sox players. Our team struggles to get national recognition and therefore get screwed in All Star selections annually.

I do recall this, but like i said, they screwed the Chicago fans by picking Everett over Frank Thomas when they already had Arod and Blalock from the Rangers going. This topic just really bothers me. Sorry.

JEFF

Foulke You
01-14-2010, 03:19 PM
I do recall this, but like i said, they screwed the Chicago fans by picking Everett over Frank Thomas when they already had Arod and Blalock from the Rangers going. This topic just really bothers me. Sorry.

JEFF
You aren't alone. I get annoyed by it as well. I was also bothered by the fact that the Sox didn't have a hometown guy in the HR Derby in our own ballpark for that All Star Game. It seems every year before and after 2003, they always make sure to pick one guy from the host team. I guess that didn't apply to the Sox?

The Sox also had the best record in all of baseball in 2005 and only got 3 all stars picked for the team. It took the fans voting like crazy to get Scott Podsednik in the game as the 4th all star. Even when the Sox have a banner year, they still manage to get snubbed. Of course, it doesn't help that 75% of the fan vote every year is for Yankees and Red Sox players. They really need to quit letting fans get a vote. Anyway, I'm getting a bit off topic here so I'll quit my rant while I'm ahead.:cool:

illinibk
01-14-2010, 03:28 PM
What is funny to me is how when they mention the first time eligibles for 2011 on MLB Network they have the nerve to put up Al Leiters name and some highlights. Lets be real here people, he has a 0 percent chance of getting in. Just cuz he is a host doesnt mean you have to try to include him.

I thought the same thing. Dude was a second quartile guy; certainly not worthy of enshrinement. I would expect he gets a similar showing as Ventura got this year. That being said, Ventura should have received more votes because he was dumb enough to charge Nolan Ryan.

voodoochile
01-14-2010, 03:36 PM
Was 2003 the year the Frank was on the final member fan vote in that someone cracked the ballot on and we stuffed the box like crazy only to have MLB discredit like 200K ballots and give the win to one of the other guys?

samurai_sox
01-14-2010, 03:55 PM
Has Frank even officially retired yet?

Zisk77
01-14-2010, 04:21 PM
Still shouldnt have made the team over Frank

I wasn't saying that he should, in fact he shouldn't have. Just mentioning that he was actually chosen as a ranger not a white sox.

Frontman
01-14-2010, 04:39 PM
Do I think he should be a first-ballot HOFer? Yes.

But I don't think he will be. I think being a DH and the reputation of a 'bad attitude' will hurt him.

Plus how many people will be carry overs from previous years who should of gone in? Bleleven (sp?) didn't get in; and to many he should of this year. Andre Dawson waited quite a few years for the phone call from Cooperstown.

Now, in my book? Frank should go in immediately. I never get the "make 'em wait" concept. Either someone is a Hall of Famer; or they are not.

Hate to say it as it might bring munchman33 running to this thread; but Frank's attitude and demeanor away from the field shouldn't have a bearing on his ability on the field. And on merit alone; Frank should go into the Hall.

soxinem1
01-14-2010, 04:44 PM
Remember, that half the time there was no DH at the ASG, so the low number of appearances is at least in part due to that.

Maybe so, but he should have been on every team as a 1B from 1991-1997 and wasn't. (I know he DH'd a lot in 1991 but 1B was still his position, as he DH'd a lot because of his shoulder)

He also should have been a no-brainer All-Star in 2000 and 2003 (despite a little low BA in 2003 he was still producing runs).

Maybe we should start lobbying the sportswriters now!

Jim Shorts
01-14-2010, 04:48 PM
I'm of the opinion that the writers just might make their message clear when it's Big Frank's turn....maybe it's just hope.

I think that they vote Frank in on the fist ballot. His name and his numbers are comparable to the all time greats. I think they vote Frank in as the first from the "Steroid Era" and putting him on that first ballot just screams their agenda because he was so against PED's during his entire career.

Now, has the Hurt officially retired? Is 2014 the year he is first eligible?

guillen4life13
01-14-2010, 04:55 PM
I belıeve that Jeff Bagwell becomes elıgıble next year or the year after. Gıven the many sımılarıtıes between theır careers, wıth Bagwell gettıng extra poınts for beıng a 1B for hıs whole career, ıf he gets ın on hıs fırst opportunıty, then Frank Thomas will have a better shot. If he doesn't get ın, then Frank wıll be SOL.

Maddux definitely gets ın on hıs fırst ballot. Glavine vs. Thomas should be a toss-up. Both deserve to be 1st ballot electees, but them's the grapes.

Jim Shorts
01-14-2010, 05:07 PM
I belıeve that Jeff Bagwell becomes elıgıble next year or the year after. Gıven the many sımılarıtıes between theır careers, wıth Bagwell gettıng extra poınts for beıng a 1B for hıs whole career, ıf he gets ın on hıs fırst opportunıty, then Frank Thomas will have a better shot. If he doesn't get ın, then Frank wıll be SOL.

Maddux definitely gets ın on hıs fırst ballot. Glavine vs. Thomas should be a toss-up. Both deserve to be 1st ballot electees, but them's the grapes.


Honest question...are Bagwell's numbers HOF worthy?

fram40
01-14-2010, 05:30 PM
I made the mistake of reading Rick Morrissey today. Morrissey is a well-known Cub appologist, so this should be no surprise. In trashing LaRussa, he mentions that it is a bad idea to have McGwire working with Pujols, whose performance has "raised ebrows". He then says this won't get Pujols out from the "cloud of suspicion". :rolleyes: I have never heard anyone link Pujols to PEDs, other than an erroneous report a few years ago he was in the Mitchell Report. If the press can do this crap to Pujols, they can and will do it to Thomas.

I often hear Pujols linked to steroids - based on nothing more than the fact he is from the DR and everyone knows the DR was/is a hotbed of steroids.

btw - reading Morrissey is always a mistake. Just a terrible column today - and most days.

TommyJohn
01-14-2010, 05:30 PM
I don't think Thomas will get in on the first few tries-the DH will be held against him. Never mind that he had his best seasons as a 1st baseman-we had two hometown sportswriters lobby against him getting the MVP in 2000-and it worked! It went to Jason Giambi, 1st baseman and all-around good guy. I think it will be the same when he is up for the hall. Telander will lobby against him. And we all know how Paul Sullivan feels about him-when Thomas left Chicago, the media shoved him out the door with their feet. I don't see sportswriters warming up to the blasphemous DH position.

fram40
01-14-2010, 06:06 PM
whether Frank Thomas deserves it or not - and I certainly believe he does deserve first ballot HOF enshrinement - how can anyone believe that someone who is identified with the WHITE SOX would have such an honor bestowed upon them? Given the amount of disrespect and just plain apathy that seems to follow our beloved White Sox.

Now if he had been a sCrUB his whole career ... the HOF would probably have waived the five year waiting rule.

Frontman
01-14-2010, 07:35 PM
whether Frank Thomas deserves it or not - and I certainly believe he does deserve first ballot HOF enshrinement - how can anyone believe that someone who is identified with the WHITE SOX would have such an honor bestowed upon them? Given the amount of disrespect and just plain apathy that seems to follow our beloved White Sox.

Now if he had been a sCrUB his whole career ... the HOF would probably have waived the five year waiting rule.

Honestly? I don't care about the Cubs or any other team, for that matter when it comes to the Hall. And the White Sox haven't produced the talent that Frank Thomas has in anyone else. We might have had HoF put on a Sox uniform at one point in time during their careers (Jim Thome, Ken Griffey, etc) but Frank is truly a member of the White Sox when he goes into the Hall; first ballot or otherwise.

Dibbs
01-14-2010, 11:50 PM
Frank should hands down be a first ballot Hall of Famer. However, I am starting to feel that he won't make it for his first year. The majority of voters are idiots imo.

cards press box
01-14-2010, 11:51 PM
Frank was more than a clean player. Frank was actively against PEDs and pushed for more stringent testing throughout the duration of his career. Frank was the only player to participate in the Mitchell report IIRC.

This is an excellent point about Frank Thomas' legacy in major league baseball. He didn't whine or complain about guys cheating to become what he legitimately was -- a superior slugger. He had a fantastic career and, when it wasn't popular to do so, he stood up against something wrong when his colleagues were unwilling (or perhaps fearful) to do so. In so doing, Frank Thomas was the Christy Mathewson of the "steroid era."

When fixing ballgames was rampant during the WWI era, just about everyone in baseball ignored the problem with the significant exception of Christy Mathewson who stood up against the problem (and as manager of the Reds, banned star first baseman and notorious fixer Hal Chase from his club). After the Black Sox scandal, everyone in MLB was willing to take a stand* but before 1919, Christy Mathewson stood alone. Isn't the same thing true of Frank Thomas in the late 1990's/early 2000's with regard to the steroid era?

Looking back, the public's generally accepted view of Sammy Sosa and Frank Thomas couldn't have been more wrong, could it? Sosa carefully and skillfully manipulated public opinion, all the while taking steroids. Sosa sold the public a "bill of goods" and many -- especially those in the RF bleachers in Wrigley -- couldn't buy it fast enough. And Big Frank? All he did was play the game honestly and master the art of hitting. What makes me optimistic is that, in the final analysis, the passage of time made it obvious to even the densest among us that Sosa chose to be a cheap and tawdry imitation of a great ballplayer and that Big Frank Thomas was the genuine article.

* As it turned out, MLB's remedy for the gambling scandal was noted Cubs fan Kenesaw M. Landis singling out Chicago AL's franchise to "wear the jacket" for a scandal that had been widespread through all of baseball for years. That opened the door for: (i) New York's AL franchise to become the sport's dominant franchise, (ii) Chicago's NL franchise to have some of their best years for the next 20 years or so and (iii) Chicago's AL franchise to remain moribund until the emergence of the Go-Go Sox in the early '50's. The ulterior motives of Landis are, however, best discussed in a different thread on another day.

SOXfnNlansing
01-14-2010, 11:54 PM
player X and Y ......................... X......Y
......................................runs 1627 1494
......................................hits 3255 2468
..................................doubles 560 495
........................................hrs 504 521
........................................bb 1333 1667
.........................................k 1516 1397.
................................average .287 .301
.............................on base % .359 .419
............................Slugging % .476 .555
.....................................Ops .836 .974

Player X (in the HOF) played 2413 games at 1st base (.993 fielding %)
Player Y (Big Frank) Played 971 games at 1st base (.991 fielding %)
Player X played 572 games at DH
Player Y played 1311 games at DH

Player X was player of the week one time; player of the month 4 times; had 3 silver slugger awards; 3 gold gloves; ROY. Led the league one time in RBI, one time in HR's; one time in OB %

Player Y was player of the week 14 times; player of the month 8 times, MVP two times ('93 was unanimous winner); Silver slugger 4 times; Led the league in OB % four times, OPS four times, Slugging one time, average one time, and runs once.

There is no question if player Y will be in the HOF, but player X was a first ballot inductee. Just look over the resumes and at worse, they are even players imo.

Player X was ROY in '79 (iirc), so they were around eachother for atleast 10 years (peers)

A. Cavatica
01-15-2010, 12:21 AM
player X and Y ......................... X......Y
......................................runs 1627 1494
......................................hits 3255 2468
..................................doubles 560 495
........................................hrs 504 521
........................................bb 1333 1667
.........................................k 1516 1397.
................................average .287 .301
.............................on base % .359 .419
............................Slugging % .476 .555
.....................................Ops .836 .974
Player X (in the HOF) played 2413 games at 1st base (.993 fielding %)
Player Y (Big Frank) Played 971 games at 1st base (.991 fielding %)
Player X played 572 games at DH
Player Y played 1311 games at DH

Player X was player of the week one time; player of the month 4 times; had 3 silver slugger awards; 3 gold gloves; ROY. Led the league one time in RBI, one time in HR's; one time in OB %

Player Y was player of the week 14 times; player of the month 8 times, MVP two times ('93 was unanimous winner); Silver slugger 4 times; Led the league in OB % four times, OPS four times, Slugging one time, average one time, and runs once.

There is no question if player Y will be in the HOF, but player X was a first ballot inductee. Just look over the resumes and at worse, they are even players imo.

Player X was ROY in '79 (iirc), so they were around eachother for atleast 10 years (peers)

Frank was a considerably better hitter than Murray, but Murray was well over 3000 hits and had 200 more RBIs, because of his longevity. 3000 hits is a big milestone. That, plus Murray's defensive skill, will be ammunition for anyone who doesn't think a DH should be elected to the Hall.

SOXfnNlansing
01-15-2010, 12:45 AM
Frank was a considerably better hitter than Murray, but Murray was well over 3000 hits and had 200 more RBIs, because of his longevity. 3000 hits is a big milestone. That, plus Murray's defensive skill, will be ammunition for anyone who doesn't think a DH should be elected to the Hall.

.002 difference? I know that 3 gold gloves>0 gold gloves. I know he did it longer, but look at the other numbers. 2 MVP>0 MPV. Look at the whole picture (not talking to you directly, but the people looking for ammunition to not allow a DH in the HOF).

SOXfnNlansing
01-15-2010, 12:57 AM
player X and Y ......................... X......Y
......................................runs 1249 1494
......................................hits 2452 2468
..................................doubles 373 495
........................................hrs 382 521
........................................bb 670 1667
.........................................k 1423 1397.
................................average .298 .301
.............................on base % .352 .419
............................Slugging % .502 .555
.....................................Ops .854 .974

Player X is in the HOF. He had 2 silver sluggers, Player of the month 4 times, MVP once, led league in hits once, OPS once, RBI twice, slugging twice, and Home runs three times.

See above for player Y. My point about Murray is he was a first ballot inductee. Everyone knows that Frank had a better career than this current player X (this player X waited a lot of years to get in recently, and played in the out field). Probably Frank gets screwed on first ballot, but the joke is on the writers. Anyone who knows baseball knew Frank DOMINATED baseball for at least 6 years. I remember dropping whatever I was doing to watch his at bats in the early to mid 90's. Murray or Rice was up? I went about my business. I would compare Rice with Baines (great players, but one guy played defense and the other didn't). Murray is a great player of all time. He just logged in a ton of playing years, but Frank was a wrecking ball (in the vein of all time).

voodoochile
01-15-2010, 09:28 AM
Frank was a considerably better hitter than Murray, but Murray was well over 3000 hits and had 200 more RBIs, because of his longevity. 3000 hits is a big milestone. That, plus Murray's defensive skill, will be ammunition for anyone who doesn't think a DH should be elected to the Hall.

How many years did Frank's injuries cost him? Murray played in almost 700 more games than Frank did. It's a damned shame his ankle couldn't take the pounding.

Britt Burns
01-15-2010, 10:38 AM
I doubt Frank gets in first ballot, although he should. I think the DH hangup some of the writers have will keep him off...2nd time around he should be in, with plenty of room to spare.

SouthSoxFan
01-15-2010, 12:49 PM
I think Frank will be close on the first try, but miss it. Probably gets around 60% of the vote. There's two other first ballot picks (Maddux and Glavine), and that's more than enough for the voters. Kent won't make it on the first ballot either. Bonds and Clemens will probably be in their 2nd year (denied that first ballot honor), and quite possibly Biggio too (who is a definite HOFer, but questionable first balloter if Alomar isn't). That's quite a crowd, and historically you just don't see more than 3 players voted in at one time.

Working against Frank are his minimal contribution on defense, time spent at DH, and post-season record. Plus, he was really only recognized as the top player at first base for a brief period, which unfortunately was the period around the MLB strike.

SoxFan1979
01-16-2010, 05:14 AM
The Big Hurt could of owned Chicago. Certain circumstances along with his attitude and MJ and the Bulls of course. How can someone as great of a hitter like Frank Thomas fall off like he did? The man coulda been amazing.

NLaloosh
01-16-2010, 05:58 AM
There is no doubt whatsoever that Frank Thomas was one of the 10 best hitters in baseball history and he should be immediately enshrined.

And, as a White Sox fan I'm not concerned (despite the number of morons in the baseball-writing community) that he won't be.

Taliesinrk
01-16-2010, 10:05 PM
There is no doubt whatsoever that Frank Thomas was one of the 10 best hitters in baseball history and he should be immediately enshrined.

And, as a White Sox fan I'm not concerned (despite the number of morons in the baseball-writing community) that he won't be.

I disagree

SteveFakeBlood
01-16-2010, 10:44 PM
I belıeve that Jeff Bagwell becomes elıgıble next year or the year after. Gıven the many sımılarıtıes between theır careers, wıth Bagwell gettıng extra poınts for beıng a 1B for hıs whole career, ıf he gets ın on hıs fırst opportunıty, then Frank Thomas will have a better shot. If he doesn't get ın, then Frank wıll be SOL.

Maddux definitely gets ın on hıs fırst ballot. Glavine vs. Thomas should be a toss-up. Both deserve to be 1st ballot electees, but them's the grapes.

There are a lot of similarities between Bagwell and Frank's career- Frank's numbers are better overall, but he also played 2 1/2 more seasons- granted, he also lost about that much time with injuries. They're similar enough to the point that on Baseball-reference on Frank Thomas's page it lists Bagwell as the most similar hitter career-wise (on Bagwell's page Frank is the third most similar). More bizarre is that Frank and Bagwell were born on the same day (pretty eerie). The difference is that Frank's numbers took more of a downturn at the end of his career than Bagwell's if you look at Frank's prime from 1991-97 vs. Bagwell during that time period (a fair comparison, since 1991 was also the first full season for both players)- it's not even close: Bagwell was a very respectable .304/.409/.945OPS/27/103 (and winning the 1994 MVP Award) during that same period Frank was .330/.452/1.056OPS/36/118.

At any rate, I think if Bagwell makes it on the first ballot next year, Frank also will make it on the first ballot in spite of issues with attitude and writers (although I was a little shocked Alomar didn't make it on the first ballot), those intangibles will hurt him badly and he'll probably barely make it- but I think other intangibles such as his cooperation with the Mitchell Report and outspoken stance against P.E.D.'s (look at the "statement" voters have been making by not voting for McGwire even before his confession, the same voting statement could be made in support of Frank) as well as being so strongly identified with a single team and city in the free agent era and being the greatest hitter in the history of an old and storied franchise.

Then again, maybe I'm completely over-estimating the voters (although I think some of you are underestimating them...).

~Steve

sullythered
01-17-2010, 08:28 PM
The Big Hurt could of owned Chicago. Certain circumstances along with his attitude and MJ and the Bulls of course. How can someone as great of a hitter like Frank Thomas fall off like he did? The man coulda been amazing.
The man was amazing. He didn't fall off precipitously. He declined at the rate that an aging ballplayer should. Everyone's perspective is skewed on how that should work because of the PED's that prolonged dominance for so many cheaters.

soxinem1
01-18-2010, 08:23 AM
How many years did Frank's injuries cost him? Murray played in almost 700 more games than Frank did. It's a damned shame his ankle couldn't take the pounding.

Right on. If Frank doesn't miss most of 2001 and 2005, and half of 2004, he has 600 HR and over 2,700 hits. So yes, the injuries cost him.

But he probably loses his .300 career BA as well. He never came close to hitting .300 after Y2K.

SOXSINCE'70
01-18-2010, 11:01 AM
Frank lost out on another Silver Slugger award at DH in 2006 because of David Ortiz taking steroids.

JEFF

IMO, he also lost out on the 2ooo A.L.
MVP because of Giambi's alleged 'Roid use.:angry:

voodoochile
01-18-2010, 11:20 AM
IMO, he also lost out on the 2ooo A.L.
MVP because of Giambi's alleged 'Roid use.:angry:

That's pretty much accepted as fact. Giambi confessed to starting to use steroids in 2001. Because you know, he was capable of putting up MVP caliber numbers clean but then felt he needed a boost to get over the hump the following year...:rolleyes:

SOXSINCE'70
01-18-2010, 11:22 AM
That's pretty much accepted as fact. Giambi confessed to starting to use steroids in 2001. Because you know, he was capable of putting up MVP caliber numbers clean but then felt he needed a boost to get over the hump the following year...:rolleyes:

Holy Barry Bonds, Batman!

Save McCuddy's
01-18-2010, 12:16 PM
Can never say what these wacko hall of fame voters are going to do, but Thomas is in the Hall of Fame inner circle -- he's no fringe member -- and that should be enough to dispense with the nonsense of making him wait a few induction years before the inevitable ensues.

PennStater98r
01-18-2010, 01:43 PM
Remember, that half the time there was no DH at the ASG, so the low number of appearances is at least in part due to that.

Not so sure this is a reflection of why Thomas wasn't selected as much as Firstbase seems to be similar to relief pitcher/closer. If a team does not have a stand out to select to the all star game - it's 1B or RP that is taken - leaving deserved players off the list - like Frank.