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spawn
01-11-2010, 03:15 PM
I just got a text from ESPN stating this. About damn time.

Edit: Here's a link:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4816607

GoGoCrede
01-11-2010, 03:15 PM
Per ESPN text alerts.

He admitted it in a statement to the AP.

Shoeless_Jeff
01-11-2010, 03:16 PM
Meanwhile http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4816607

I don't think he needs to worry about preparing a HOF speech.

GoGoCrede
01-11-2010, 03:16 PM
Beat me. ESPN texts are so handy.

cbone
01-11-2010, 03:17 PM
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/34809569/ns/sports-baseball/

aryzner
01-11-2010, 03:17 PM
Well.

That only took 10+ years.

Marqhead
01-11-2010, 03:18 PM
Nothing good can be said about what he did, but at least he came clean.

Boondock Saint
01-11-2010, 03:19 PM
I wonder how much of this "honesty" was brought on by his pathetic results in the HOF voting...

VenturaFan23
01-11-2010, 03:22 PM
Shocking.

spawn
01-11-2010, 03:22 PM
I wonder how much of this "honesty" was brought on by his pathetic results in the HOF voting...
My thoughts exactly.

JermaineDye05
01-11-2010, 03:22 PM
Jeez I don't think I've been this surprised since I found out Tim Lincecum smoked pot.

Madvora
01-11-2010, 03:28 PM
Meanwhile http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4816607

I don't think he needs to worry about preparing a HOF speech.
Awesome. Keep em coming!

gr8mexico
01-11-2010, 03:28 PM
Wait Mark McGwire used steroids? :o:
Now your going to tell me Sammy Sosa is white.

Jerko
01-11-2010, 03:29 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100111/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_steroids_mcgwire

Boondock Saint
01-11-2010, 03:30 PM
Jeez I don't think I've been this surprised since I found out Tim Lincecum smoked pot.

Hey, congratulations! You assumed that someone with long hair smokes pot! I'm not sure where you should pick up your medal, though.

Shoeless_Jeff
01-11-2010, 03:31 PM
Jeez I don't think I've been this surprised since I found out Tim Lincecum smoked pot.

:rolling:

tstrike2000
01-11-2010, 03:32 PM
He couldn't think that an admittance to steroids would garner him any future Hall of Fame votes, so why come out now? My only thought is that now that he's back in the MLB, he probably doesn't want to answer questions all the time about it. This is besides the fact that this is one of the worst kept secrets anyway.

Shoeless_Jeff
01-11-2010, 03:33 PM
Awesome. Keep em coming!

Oops. I originally posted that in the thread about La Russa wanting to bring McGwire back on the bench.

soxinem1
01-11-2010, 03:34 PM
Shocking....... Positively shocking.....

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Lj5KP8OgZVk/R7zvsDQTReI/AAAAAAAABQc/RefYdNigov4/s400/T4trademarklogo96.jpg

However this does open a new debate.

If A-Rod gets in after admitting, how do you keep McGwire out in the future? Sure, they were different players, but admittedly, Sosa and Mac did help bring baseball out of a difficult post-1994 period.

Some Yahoo will begin trumpeting this sooner or later.

RKMeibalane
01-11-2010, 03:34 PM
And the sun rises in the east...

pythons007
01-11-2010, 03:35 PM
Who didn't think he took steriods? For that matter who doesn't think Sosa or Bonds took steriods? I mean for a record to be held for almost 40 years and then repeatedly being not just broke but demolished from 1998-2001 is a joke.

I can't wait until Slappy Sammy comes out and admits he took roids. Barry Bonds head size had to expand by almost 3 or 4 hat sizes!

Mac was always a decent size guy but Sosa and Bonds were rails. Barry's thigh his rookie season was probably the same size and his bicep when he stopped playing baseball.

Sosa is just an all around cheater, and didn't care about anyone but his egotistical self!

Viva Medias B's
01-11-2010, 03:37 PM
I cannot believe it.

GoGoCrede
01-11-2010, 03:38 PM
Well, we know what ESPN will be talking about for the next month. I usually get a million text alerts from them about the aftermath.

spawn
01-11-2010, 03:40 PM
Well, we know what ESPN will be talking about for the next month. I usually get a million text alerts from them about the aftermath.
Yep. I'm in that boat as well. :tongue:

thomas35forever
01-11-2010, 03:41 PM
No one should be surprised. I hope writers stop voting for him for the Hall now.

g0g0
01-11-2010, 03:42 PM
I'm glad he admitted it and don't care about him coming back as a pinch hitter or whatever St. Louis wants to do with him. But I don't want him in the HOF or any other doper for that matter. If you admit it you should be stricken from the records, plain and simple.

:canseco

*Artificial Ingredients

white sox bill
01-11-2010, 03:44 PM
Anyone here find it interesting that Mark uses the excuse of quicker recovery from injury/surgery as reason to use? Like he didn't know his performance would be enhanced.

kittle42
01-11-2010, 03:48 PM
Apparently, unlike Mr. McGwire, you are all here to talk about the past.

JermaineDye05
01-11-2010, 03:48 PM
Hey, congratulations! You assumed that someone with long hair smokes pot! I'm not sure where you should pick up your medal, though.

It's not just the long hair. He just has that look about him. I don't know what that specific look is, but he has it. After coming across a great deal of smokers through school, it's pretty easy to spot whether someone smokes or not. Though more times than not it has to do with the smell than the look. I honestly don't think many people were surprised when they heard that Tim was caught with pot, maybe his parents.

soxinem1
01-11-2010, 03:49 PM
Anyone here find it interesting that Mark uses the excuse of quicker recovery from injury/surgery as reason to use? Like he didn't know his performance would be enhanced.

Especially when you could notice just from his baseball card photos that he had gotten bigger in no time.

I guess the side benefits like hitting a pitch 550 feet that was swung at two inches from his ankle were too much to pass up.

VeeckAsInWreck
01-11-2010, 03:51 PM
I think Mark McGwire will get into the Baseball Hall Of Fame in Cooperstown, NY.

However he will have to pay the $16.50 entry fee at the door.

GoGoCrede
01-11-2010, 03:51 PM
I think Mark McGwire will get into the Baseball Hall Of Fame in Cooperstown, NY.

However he will have to pay the $16.50 entry fee at the door.

:rolling:

Viva Medias B's
01-11-2010, 03:53 PM
ESPN has Bob Knight on to get his reaction to this. Urgent, obviously.

If I were ESPN, I'd be seeking Jose Canseco's reaction.

gregoriop
01-11-2010, 03:57 PM
Expected, but sad. He was never a jerk about anything that I could remember and seemed like a decent enough guy. I was a fan as a kid.

voodoochile
01-11-2010, 03:57 PM
Thanks, Mark now get the **** out of here and take your "record" with you...

Barroid, ShamME* you're next...

GoGoCrede
01-11-2010, 03:57 PM
ESPN has Bob Knight on to get his reaction to this. Urgent, obviously.

If I were ESPN, I'd be seeking Jose Canseco's reaction.

I imagine him having a huge list on his wall and crossing McGwire's name out with a huge black Sharpie, then sitting down with a smug look on his face.

Boondock Saint
01-11-2010, 03:57 PM
It's not just the long hair. He just has that look about him. I don't know what that specific look is, but he has it. After coming across a great deal of smokers through school, it's pretty easy to spot whether someone smokes or not. Though more times than not it has to do with the smell than the look. I honestly don't think many people were surprised when they heard that Tim was caught with pot, maybe his parents.

:rolleyes:

tstrike2000
01-11-2010, 03:58 PM
ESPN has Bob Knight on to get his reaction to this. Urgent, obviously.

If I were ESPN, I'd be seeking Jose Canseco's reaction.

Bob Knight? Does ESPN want to throw the chair at him or something?

white sox bill
01-11-2010, 03:58 PM
Apparently, unlike Mr. McGwire, you are all here to talk about the past.
Yes agreed. This is old news. Nothing new here. I'm unsubscribing from this thread. I'm much more worried about this 2010 Sox team competing..

Metalthrasher442
01-11-2010, 04:02 PM
:rolleyes:

Although I agree with that face for that statement, we had a heated debate about this during the thread when Lincecum got caught. So I think we should leave at this before this gets ugly haha. People smoke weed and people who call it pot don't smoke. So you either do or you don't. I'm going to try and not get offended during this thread haha.

happydude
01-11-2010, 04:03 PM
Nothing good can be said about what he did, but at least he came clean.

Yes and he deserves to be acknowledged for doing so no matter how long it took. But at this point he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. He got ripped for refusing to confess the obvious....now he's going to get ripped for confessing years after the fact and/or accused of only fessing up for reasons unrelated to a pure desire to be honest.

Boondock Saint
01-11-2010, 04:05 PM
Yes agreed. This is old news. Nothing new here. I'm unsubscribing from this thread. I'm much more worried about this 2010 Sox team competing..

:duck:

You see, the rock is a metaphor for the reference that just flew over your head.

Lip Man 1
01-11-2010, 04:05 PM
Certainly this isn't a surprise. I think it's good for him, the game and obviously was part of the Cardinals request for him to return as hitting coach.

The question now is, when do frauds like Sosa, Bonds and Palmeiro finally 'fess up' to things?

Lip

spawn
01-11-2010, 04:06 PM
Apparently, unlike Mr. McGwire, you are all here to talk about the past.
:rolling: I guess he decided he needed to talk about the past now, seeing as his HOF numbers are as weak as Scott Podsednik's throwing arm.

VeeckAsInWreck
01-11-2010, 04:06 PM
I imagine him having a huge list on his wall and crossing McGwire's name out with a huge black Sharpie, then sitting down with a smug look on his face.

Jose Canseco should print some "Jose Was Right" T-shirts that he could sell after a new player he named in his book gets revealed.

tstrike2000
01-11-2010, 04:06 PM
Certainly this isn't a surprise. I think it's good for him, the game and obviously was part of the Cardinals request for him to return as hitting coach.

The question now is, when do frauds like Sosa, Bonds and Palmeiro finally 'fess up' to things?

Lip

Bonds, never. The others? Perhaps.

Viva Medias B's
01-11-2010, 04:08 PM
B&B totally torching TLR.

spawn
01-11-2010, 04:08 PM
If I were ESPN, I'd be seeking Jose Canseco's reaction.
Why? Because he ratted out his fellow ballplayers for a profit? I definitely don't need to see Canseco's face on my television screen anytime soon.

Boondock Saint
01-11-2010, 04:09 PM
Jose Canseco should print some "Jose Was Right" T-shirts that he could sell after a new player he named in his book gets revealed.

I will always hate Canseco more than other steroid users, Bonds included. He sold out his teammates for money and, more than likely, the chance to come off as the good guy.

beasly213
01-11-2010, 04:10 PM
B&B totally torching TLR.

What's TLR?

Also Bonds admitted to taking PEDs but he said he didn't know they were PEDs being put into his body.

Viva Medias B's
01-11-2010, 04:10 PM
I will always hate Canseco more than other steroid users, Bonds included. He sold out his teammates for money and, more than likely, the chance to come off as the good guy.

I agree with this sentiment, even though I would find his reaction to this interesting.

Viva Medias B's
01-11-2010, 04:11 PM
What's TLR?

Also Bonds admitted to taking PEDs but he said he didn't know they were PEDs being put into his body.

Tony La Russa

sox1970
01-11-2010, 04:12 PM
LaRussa respects McGwire more than ever. Ok, Tony. :rolleyes:

spawn
01-11-2010, 04:21 PM
LaRussa respects McGwire more than ever. Ok, Tony. :rolleyes:
Can you blame him? I mean, he cheated, then in '05 had a chance to show real courage and come clean before Congress but admitted nothing, and finally, while trying to rebuild his career and reputation so he has a better chance of making the HOF, has decided to admit to using. How can you not respect that?

Viva Medias B's
01-11-2010, 04:30 PM
Can you blame him? I mean, he cheated, then in '05 had a chance to show real courage and come clean before Congress but admitted nothing, and finally, while trying to rebuild his career and reputation so he has a better chance of making the HOF, has decided to admit to using. How can you not respect that?

Like Dusty Baker and other managers of players who used steroids, La Russa was an enabler by looking the other way when he knew damn well what was going on.

cws05champ
01-11-2010, 04:44 PM
Can you blame him? I mean, he cheated, then in '05 had a chance to show real courage and come clean before Congress but admitted nothing, and finally, while trying to rebuild his career and reputation so he has a better chance of making the HOF, has decided to admit to using. How can you not respect that?
I think it was more the fact that he is now the Cardinals hitting coach. He was going to have to talk to the media everyday and didn't want himself to be a distraction come spring training. Maybe the HOF played into it a little, but he had to get this out of the way sooner or later.

getonbckthr
01-11-2010, 04:53 PM
Wait Mark McGwire used steroids? :o:
Now your going to tell me Sammy Sosa is white.
http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/117074/thumbs/s-SAMMY-SOSA-SKIN-large.jpg

Viva Medias B's
01-11-2010, 05:02 PM
:tool
Statement (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20100111&content_id=7900902&vkey=pr_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)

Shoeless
01-11-2010, 05:08 PM
:tool
Statement (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20100111&content_id=7900902&vkey=pr_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)

Can't Bud Selig do anything right?

getonbckthr
01-11-2010, 05:15 PM
It should be noted Mark Mcguire never broke MLB's rules. Morally ya very wrong but MLB-wise no rules broken.

Viva Medias B's
01-11-2010, 05:18 PM
Per Frank O. Pinion on KTRS-AM (550) (http://www.ktrs.com/) in St. Louis, a John Rooney interview with Mark McGwire is scheduled to air around 4:40 p.m.

SOXfnNlansing
01-11-2010, 05:20 PM
By waiting a week to 'announce' his drug use is disingenuous. He knew that there would be a chance he'd get under the magic 5% in the HOF voting if he announced it before the vote.

There will probably be too many short memories come next year's vote.

voodoochile
01-11-2010, 05:21 PM
Can't Bud Selig do anything right?

Yeah, I love the serious tone he takes, I'd love to read a press release from Bud that depicts how the average fan feels about this crap...

:tool:
"O rly? Mark use steroids? No ****? Well spank my ass and call me Shirley I had no ****ing clue. You're going to sit there and tell me Mark used steroids? Mark McGwire? I'm stunned. Actually, I'm not, I'm just stunned he finally decided to talk about the past and then actually told the truth. This isn't news people, I mean come on. We, the PTB in baseball made a pact with the devil many years ago. We might have done something about it sooner, but then we screwed up and canceled the 1994 Series and you folks really let us hear it with your wallets for the next few years, so we decided to treat you like the suckers you are.... er... I mean... let the players juice until their eyeballs exploded to create a media storm around an artificially created home run race and thus get you cheap bastards to start spending money again. I'm too ****ing old to find a new career and I really really need you to support me, so again, when you tell me Mark was juicing I say again... No ****?"

:rolleyes:

voodoochile
01-11-2010, 05:22 PM
It should be noted Mark Mcguire never broke MLB's rules. Morally ya very wrong but MLB-wise no rules broken.

Yeah and AIG didn't break any laws when they handed out those bonuses fall 2008 either...:rolleyes:

Thome_Fan
01-11-2010, 05:39 PM
I imagine him having a huge list on his wall and crossing McGwire's name out with a huge black Sharpie, then sitting down with a smug look on his face.

I'm picturing the dude from Billy Madison.

"Whoa, I'm sure glad I made THAT phone call."

GoGoCrede
01-11-2010, 05:41 PM
I'm picturing the dude from Billy Madison.

"Whoa, I'm sure glad I made THAT phone call."

That's EXACTLY what I was picturing when I wrote that post! :tongue:

Nellie_Fox
01-11-2010, 05:45 PM
It should be noted Mark Mcguire never broke MLB's rules. Morally ya very wrong but MLB-wise no rules broken.
And a federal crime. I love how so many people just dismiss that part.

#1swisher
01-11-2010, 05:50 PM
And a federal crime. I love how so many people just dismiss that part.

La Russa just said, that he didn't lie in front of Congress. We will see.

october23sp
01-11-2010, 05:50 PM
I'm picturing the dude from Billy Madison.

"Whoa, I'm sure glad I made THAT phone call."
http://ickyjoey.com/PeopleToKill.JPG

guillensdisciple
01-11-2010, 05:52 PM
I hate this so much. When will this disappear, when will these idiots stop talking.

Just round these fools in a corner and kick them out of baseball. I am so sick of all this crap.

getonbckthr
01-11-2010, 05:55 PM
And a federal crime. I love how so many people just dismiss that part.
I keep forgetting that.
La Russa just said, that he didn't lie in front of Congress. We will see.
That was in regards to the post where I said Mcguire didn't break any MLB rules. I did forget that even though not against MLB rules it was against federal law.

getonbckthr
01-11-2010, 05:56 PM
I hate this so much. When will this disappear, when will these idiots stop talking.

Just round these fools in a corner and kick them out of baseball. I am so sick of all this crap.
Personally I would rather not hear anymore of it and I wish none of this would have come out. I wish I could have gone to my grave knowing that the game I grew up loving was free of this scandal.

WhiteSox5187
01-11-2010, 05:56 PM
And a federal crime. I love how so many people just dismiss that part.

Correct me if I'm wrong here Nellie, but isn't there also a rule from the midst of the cocaine scandals of the 1980s that says no player may use any drug unless prescribed by a doctor?

FireMariotti
01-11-2010, 05:57 PM
And a federal crime. I love how so many people just dismiss that part.

I don't get that part either.
It's like saying that its ok to stab a guy on second base because there is no rule against it. It's still a crime.

WhiteSox5187
01-11-2010, 06:05 PM
I don't get that part either.
It's like saying that its ok to stab a guy on second base because there is no rule against it. It's still a crime.

Ooooh, you may have just found a major loop hole! "AJ goes in for the slide...oooh, and down goes Jeter!"

getonbckthr
01-11-2010, 06:31 PM
Maybe its just me, but if I was releasing an announcement like McGuire did I think I would have waited a couple weeks and do it the Thursday or Friday before the Super Bowl and hope it would get lost.

grenda12
01-11-2010, 06:47 PM
Although this doesnt surprise me any but with this coming out, Do you think this will take the spotlight off Tiger Woods?

getonbckthr
01-11-2010, 06:51 PM
Although this doesnt surprise me any but with this coming out, Do you think this will take the spotlight off Tiger Woods?
I kind of think the Tiger Woods stuff has started to go away.

roylestillman
01-11-2010, 07:23 PM
The interview with him on the MLB network right now is pretty gripping, but the guy is still in full denial. He absolutely feels that he did steroids for "health purposes" and that he feels that he would have hit the number of home runs because of "the gifts he was given." He still is giving the talking points from the original statements. But when he breaks down and talks about the Marris family, and how they have a right to feel that Roger still holds the record you can see the doubt.

roylestillman
01-11-2010, 07:37 PM
Costas is pretty good on this. He asked point blank if McGwire thought his numbers he put up were "authentic" to which McGwire responded that he thought "yes they were." Nice long pause by Costas after that one. McGwire is not going to come out of this well, no matter how many tears.

Jim Shorts
01-11-2010, 07:38 PM
The interview with him on the MLB network right now is pretty gripping, but the guy is still in full denial. He absolutely feels that he did steroids for "health purposes" and that he feels that he would have hot the number of home runs because of "the gifts he was given." He still is giving the talking points from the original statements. But when he breaks down and talks about the Marris family, and how they have a right to feel that Roger still holds the record you can see the doubt.

And this is just slightly less transparent than his congressional testimony...and the denial/admittance will keep him out forever as far as the writers are concerned.

McGuire needs a far better PR person...

Viva Medias B's
01-11-2010, 07:48 PM
Goose Gossage was just on the Score and told Laurence Holmes that he would not welcome McGwire in the Hall of Fame.

Brian26
01-11-2010, 07:57 PM
Verducci ripping him apart now.

Joe Magrane ripping him apart.

Ken Rosenthal says he blew it. Says it was "as bad as his performance in front of Congress."

Verducci and Rosenthal question why there is so much anguish if he only did it for "health reasons."

Vasgersian talks about "cringe moments for the viewer" during the interview.

getonbckthr
01-11-2010, 08:03 PM
Rosenthal has been pounding him all day justifiably so.

Viva Medias B's
01-11-2010, 08:03 PM
Verducci ripping him apart now.

Joe Magrane ripping him apart.

Ken Rosenthal says he blew it. Says it was "as bad as his performance in front of Congress."

Verducci and Rosenthal question why there is so much anguish if he only did it for "health reasons."

I wonder how the comments of these MLB Network analysts will compare with their counterparts on ESPN.

getonbckthr
01-11-2010, 08:06 PM
I wonder how the comments of these MLB Network analysts will compare with their counterparts on ESPN.
Would ESPN even acknowledge this interview on MLBN?

roylestillman
01-11-2010, 08:07 PM
Verducci ripping him apart now.

Joe Magrane ripping him apart.

Ken Rosenthal says he blew it. Says it was "as bad as his performance in front of Congress."

Verducci and Rosenthal question why there is so much anguish if he only did it for "health reasons."

Vasgersian talks about "cringe moments for the viewer" during the interview.

Harold Reynolds says they are being too hard on him.

Viva Medias B's
01-11-2010, 08:12 PM
Ed Farmer is now on the Score to talk about this. He is not defending McGwire certainly, but he sounds somewhat sympathetic to why McGwire made his admission today.

Meanwhile, McGwire talked (http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/commishs-hot-stove/commishs-hot-stove/2010/01/mcgwire-interview-with-bernie-miklasz/) to Bernie Miklasz of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

WhiteSox5187
01-11-2010, 08:20 PM
Would ESPN even acknowledge this interview on MLBN?

I only read Neyer's article which was essentially saying "if writers had a pill that would allow them to write without pain, they would take it, so why criticize McGwire?" I think MLBN has been much more critical about the use of steroids where as ESPN has struck me as being more apologetic.

God damn I wish I had MLBN! I wish I had cable!

WhiteSox5187
01-11-2010, 08:23 PM
Harold Reynolds says they are being too hard on him.

It seems to me that historically players are far more sympatethic towards fellow players. I don't think I've heard a contemporary of McGwire criticize him or other steroid users specifically, I've heard them generally criticize steroid users but if someone asked a former player "what do you think about so and so using steroids?" the typical response it seems to me is usually "So and so was a great player and I'm surprised he felt the need the to use steroids, it's certainly not something I would have done." I don't think I've ever heard anyone say "So and so is then a cheater and a fraud," or anything like that. But maybe someone can find some quote to prove me wrong.

getonbckthr
01-11-2010, 08:27 PM
Here's my issue with HGH and steroids. We all kow its cheating and its wrong. However I earn $30,000 a year if your gonna tell me with the help of a few pills and some needles I'm gonna make a jump to 3 million dollars and the side effects being the public looking down on me and losing years off of my life I don't know if I could say no.

ernie14
01-11-2010, 08:35 PM
i wonder how much of this "honesty" was brought on by his pathetic results in the hof voting...


all of it

haganaga
01-11-2010, 08:36 PM
I'm not 100% sure where I stand with the whole "steroids users in the HOF" argument but one thing I'm sure of. Because Mark McGwire used steroids and HGH, he spent less time on the DL, allowing him more at-bats which gave him more chances to hit those 583 home runs. My guess is without the help, he's just about done after the 1994 season and gets a few more "hobbling around" years. Even if you give him the 1996 and 1997 totals (52 and 58 homers after two seasons of 9 each), he ends his career with 387 dingers. Respectable but in no way historic. Then he goes on to hit another 196 in his final 4 seasons? He clearly gained a distinct competitive advantage over those whose bodies broke down as they got older and couldn't keep up to keep hitting homers. You know what, after typing this out, I've decided. If I had a vote, I wouldn't vote for him. I can see why some might, but I wouldn't.

Imagine if people like Don Mattingly, Keith Hernandez, Dale Murphy and Alan Trammel juiced.

getonbckthr
01-11-2010, 08:37 PM
all of it
I disagree. I think it was a deal with the Cardinals and LaRussa. He can come back but must come clean.

Brian26
01-11-2010, 08:39 PM
I disagree. I think it was a deal with the Cardinals and LaRussa. He can come back but must come clean.

I agree. He was going to need to address it with the media before Spring Training started, so it was only a matter of time within the next month before it went down.

WhiteSox5187
01-11-2010, 08:39 PM
Here's my issue with HGH and steroids. We all kow its cheating and its wrong. However I earn $30,000 a year if your gonna tell me with the help of a few pills and some needles I'm gonna make a jump to 3 million dollars and the side effects being the public looking down on me and losing years off of my life I don't know if I could say no.

I completely understand the logic for the marginal player who is trying to get into the majors and/or keep his job at the majors. If someone came up to me and said "take this and you can become a major league baseball player" I would take it in a heartbeat. What I don't understand is why a guy like Barry Bonds, one of the best whoever played without steroids, would feel the need to take them.

getonbckthr
01-11-2010, 08:45 PM
I completely understand the logic for the marginal player who is trying to get into the majors and/or keep his job at the majors. If someone came up to me and said "take this and you can become a major league baseball player" I would take it in a heartbeat. What I don't understand is why a guy like Barry Bonds, one of the best whoever played without steroids, would feel the need to take them.
Jealousy. Look at Barry Bonds before we can assume he started juicing. He was the best overall player in baseball. Yet he wasn't getting the attention. barry is an egomaniac. Thomas and Griffey had the video games and shoe deals. McGwire and Sosa were the ones given credit for "saving baseball" yet Bonds was better than all of them.

mccoydp
01-11-2010, 09:04 PM
One fraud down, two more to go: Sosa and Bonds.

I'm getting tired of the people who keep countering his admission with "steroids were legal in MLB at the time." They were illegal in the U.S. as of 1990, when they became classified in the same category as narcotics and barbiturates.

Dibbs
01-11-2010, 09:22 PM
What a courageous man Mark McGwire is. Finally coming clean after ALL of these years.

"I didn't want to look like Arnold", "they weren't large doses", "why did I have to play in the steroid era?"

This guy is a joke.

munchman33
01-11-2010, 09:44 PM
One fraud down, two more to go: Sosa and Bonds.

I'm getting tired of the people who keep countering his admission with "steroids were legal in MLB at the time." They were illegal in the U.S. as of 1990, when they became classified in the same category as narcotics and barbiturates.

And would you hold someone out of the Hall of Fame if they, say, smoked weed? Because that's illegal.

What is they got in a bar fight? Or got a speeding ticket?

I don't want players who took steroids in the Hall. But the argument that they weren't banned substances in baseball is VERY valid. And that's even without the obvious truth that management wanted players to take steroids.

mccoydp
01-11-2010, 09:58 PM
And would you hold someone out of the Hall of Fame if they, say, smoked weed? Because that's illegal.

What is they got in a bar fight? Or got a speeding ticket?

I don't want players who took steroids in the Hall. But the argument that they weren't banned substances in baseball is VERY valid. And that's even without the obvious truth that management wanted players to take steroids.

I'm not talking about any of the things that you just mentioned. I'm talking specifically about steroids. They are a federally banned substance, unless their use is specifically prescribed by a doctor.

The federal ban of steroids should be coupled with the MLB ban, IMO; they shouldn't be exclusive of each other.

Additionally, weed isn't exactly a performance enhancing drug that could have helped someone like McGuire crush 62+ HR in a season. The only "enhancement" he would have gotten from toking weed would have been the increased need for munchies.

You make an excellent point at the end: MLB is just as guilty as the players in this whole mess. They, as an organization, just wanted a few feel-good seasons to ease our pain after the butt-****ing they gave us in 1994.

munchman33
01-11-2010, 10:07 PM
I'm not talking about any of the things that you just mentioned. I'm talking specifically about steroids. They are a federally banned substance, unless their use is specifically prescribed by a doctor.

The federal ban of steroids should be coupled with the MLB ban, IMO; they shouldn't be exclusive of each other.

Additionally, weed isn't exactly a performance enhancing drug that could have helped someone like McGuire crush 62+ HR in a season. The only "enhancement" he would have gotten from toking weed would have been the increased need for munchies.

You make an excellent point at the end: MLB is just as guilty as the players in this whole mess. They, as an organization, just wanted a few feel-good seasons to ease our pain after the butt-****ing they gave us in 1994.

Weed could help someone with nerve problems relax, actually. Any drug can be considered "performance-enhancing" when you think about it. Some more than others, perhaps, but baseball didn't ban any substances. Baseball does hold players accountable if they get into criminal trouble, but the Hall specifically has NEVER considered criminal trouble to be an issue outside of accusations of fixing baseball games. There is no precedent for holding people out for simply breaking the law, and players using before baseball took action are only guilty of that.

kittle42
01-11-2010, 10:11 PM
Who is this McGuire fellow some of you are talking about?

mccoydp
01-11-2010, 10:25 PM
Who is this McGuire fellow some of you are talking about?

Holy crapola, I can't believe I did that. :redface:

That's as bad as the Buehrle and Alexei mistakes I see regularly. And Javy "Vasquez" to boot!

Frontman
01-11-2010, 10:47 PM
And would you hold someone out of the Hall of Fame if they, say, smoked weed? Because that's illegal.

What is they got in a bar fight? Or got a speeding ticket?

I don't want players who took steroids in the Hall. But the argument that they weren't banned substances in baseball is VERY valid. And that's even without the obvious truth that management wanted players to take steroids.

So, if Derek Jeter charges the mound and murders Josh Beckett in a Yankees/Red Sox game; should it count against him when it comes time for his Hall of Fame vote?

You know, since THAT isn't against the rules in major league baseball, either.

Stop making excuses for the fact that baseball as a whole turned a blind eye to ILLEGAL behavior of this players.

munchman33
01-11-2010, 11:11 PM
So, if Derek Jeter charges the mound and murders Josh Beckett in a Yankees/Red Sox game; should it count against him when it comes time for his Hall of Fame vote?

You know, since THAT isn't against the rules in major league baseball, either.

Stop making excuses for the fact that baseball as a whole turned a blind eye to ILLEGAL behavior of this players.

You would put murdering another player during a game on the same level as steroid use?

And physically harming other players IS in the baseball rulebook. That's why we see ejections.

It's purely a legal issue, and as far as those go, using steroids is hardly a big deal by comparison to even most other illegal drugs.

Like I said, I don't want steroid users in the Hall. But that's only based on personal feelings. Steroid users before baseball's ban did not break any baseball rules other than the blanket rule not to break the law. And that rule doesn't keep people out of the Hall of fame. There's more than 70 years of HOF precedent fighting against that argument.

WhiteSox5187
01-11-2010, 11:13 PM
So, if Derek Jeter charges the mound and murders Josh Beckett in a Yankees/Red Sox game; should it count against him when it comes time for his Hall of Fame vote?



It will certainly cost him the Boston vote.

voodoochile
01-11-2010, 11:20 PM
You would put murdering another player during a game on the same level as steroid use?

And physically harming other players IS in the baseball rulebook. That's why we see ejections.
It's purely a legal issue, and as far as those go, using steroids is hardly a big deal by comparison to even most other illegal drugs.

Like I said, I don't want steroid users in the Hall. But that's only based on personal feelings. Steroid users before baseball's ban did not break any baseball rules other than the blanket rule not to break the law. And that rule doesn't keep people out of the Hall of fame. There's more than 70 years of HOF precedent fighting against that argument.

The problem I have with your argument is that it ignores the ramifications on the game itself. A guy goes home smokes a joint then goes back to play baseball the next day, it really doesn't affect the game that much. Even if he is using Coke or Heroin off the job, the worst it would do is cost him money in the long run as he simply wouldn't perform up to the same standards he would while sober. Really those are on the same par with alcohol abuse.

Steroid use isn't recreational though. It's got one purpose, to enable players to play more often and play at a higher level.

From a purely baseball perspective, steroids actually are ethically worse than these other illegal drugs you keep dragging into the conversation because unlike those drugs, steroids warp the game and allow average players to become good and good players to become great. It also forces amateur players to feel they need to juice to compete and that's not fair to those kids or their parents.

Steroids are the worst scandal/problem in baseball since the gambling stuff got cleaned up many decades ago. Calling it anything less is a disservice to the sport and the clean players who play it and minimizing it by saying, "same as any other drug" is simply poor logic, IMO.

munchman33
01-11-2010, 11:27 PM
The problem I have with your argument is that it ignores the ramifications on the game itself. A guy goes home smokes a joint then goes back to play baseball the next day, it really doesn't affect the game that much. Even if he is using Coke or Heroin off the job, the worst it would do is cost him money in the long run as he simply wouldn't perform up to the same standards he would while sober. Really those are on the same par with alcohol abuse.

Steroid use isn't recreational though. It's got one purpose, to enable players to play more often and play at a higher level.

From a purely baseball perspective, steroids actually are ethically worse than these other illegal drugs you keep dragging into the conversation because unlike those drugs, steroids warp the game and allow average players to become good and good players to become great. It also forces amateur players to feel they need to juice to compete and that's not fair to those kids or their parents.

Steroids are the worst scandal/problem in baseball since the gambling stuff got cleaned up many decades ago. Calling it anything less is a disservice to the sport and the clean players who play it and minimizing it by saying, "same as any other drug" is simply poor logic, IMO.

I know semi-pro basketball players who can't play a decent game without toking up first (which is why I mentioned before as a way to calm the nerves). Alcohol can have that same relaxing effect. Caffeine can keep you alert.

I'm not arguing that steroids didn't make a huge difference, and yes probably more than other drugs. But they weren't against the rules. Certainly not anymore than taking coke, punching a cop, spitting on a child, or mistreating a pet. And, as I said before, illegal activity has only kept people out who cheated TO LOSE. Guys that cheated to win are all over the hall, some of them celebrated.

voodoochile
01-11-2010, 11:41 PM
I know semi-pro basketball players who can't play a decent game without toking up first (which is why I mentioned before as a way to calm the nerves). Alcohol can have that same relaxing effect. Caffeine can keep you alert.

I'm not arguing that steroids didn't make a huge difference, and yes probably more than other drugs. But they weren't against the rules. Certainly not anymore than taking coke, punching a cop, spitting on a child, or mistreating a pet. And, as I said before, illegal activity has only kept people out who cheated TO LOSE. Guys that cheated to win are all over the hall, some of them celebrated.

People believe that crap, but it's rarely true, the actual case of the guy who performs better with a buzz on are mostly anecdotal in nature and often come down to one guy remembering one time he was buzzed and got hot. You'll notice that the vast majority of drug stories from baseball revolve around stimulants (coke and amphetamines). Oh and caffeine isn't illegal.

munchman33
01-11-2010, 11:46 PM
People believe that crap, but it's rarely true, the actual case of the guy who performs better with a buzz on are mostly anecdotal in nature and often come down to one guy remembering one time he was buzzed and got hot. You'll notice that the vast majority of drug stories from baseball revolve around stimulants (coke and amphetamines). Oh and caffeine isn't illegal.

I don't disagree with you, but I still don't see the historical basis for Hall exclusion. Cheating to win doesn't keep people out of the hall, and neither does breaking the law. The only things to ever keep people out of the hall are throwing games and not being good enough (though, admittedly not good enough has been getting plenty of players in the last few years).

goon
01-11-2010, 11:48 PM
I know semi-pro basketball players who can't play a decent game without toking up first (which is why I mentioned before as a way to calm the nerves). Alcohol can have that same relaxing effect. Caffeine can keep you alert.


Yes, but caffeine, alcohol and other recreational drugs don't give you an edge physically. When people refer to "performance-enhancing drugs" they are only talking about drugs that have a physical effect, not emotional or psychological.

By now we should all know this...

voodoochile
01-11-2010, 11:52 PM
I don't disagree with you, but I still don't see the historical basis for Hall exclusion. Cheating to win doesn't keep people out of the hall, and neither does breaking the law. The only things to ever keep people out of the hall are throwing games and not being good enough (though, admittedly not good enough has been getting plenty of players in the last few years).

Right, but these kinds of boosts haven't been available on a widespread basis. It's brand new territory, Munch. You can't compare this to other forms of cheating to win. Corked bats and spitballs aren't on the same level with 50 pounds of additional muscle.

munchman33
01-11-2010, 11:54 PM
Yes, but caffeine, alcohol and other recreational drugs don't give you an edge physically. When people refer to "performance-enhancing drugs" they are only talking about drugs that have a physical effect, not emotional or psychological.

By now we should all know this...

All drugs have a physical effect, and it's impossible not to have a physical effect when something affects you psychologically. But that's semantics. The real issue, as I keep bringing up, is precedent. And there's no precedent for people that cheat to win or people that break the law or people that break the law and cheat to win from being kept out of the hall of fame. No matter the record, how much they cheated, admitting they cheated...if someone was good enough, they simply got in. It's a hall full of good players, criminals, and guys who cheated their way to success. Oh, and Jim Rice, who was simply a mediocre ballplayer.

munchman33
01-11-2010, 11:54 PM
Right, but these kinds of boosts haven't been available on a widespread basis. It's brand new territory, Munch. You can't compare this to other forms of cheating to win. Corked bats and spitballs aren't on the same level with 50 pounds of additional muscle.

Aren't they? And those were actually against baseball rules when people did them. People in the HOF right now.

Boondock Saint
01-11-2010, 11:57 PM
All drugs have a physical effect, and it's impossible not to have a physical effect when something affects you psychologically. But that's semantics. The real issue, as I keep bringing up, is precedent. And there's no precedent for people that cheat to win or people that break the law or people that break the law and cheat to win from being kept out of the hall of fame. No matter the record, how much they cheated, admitting they cheated...if someone was good enough, they simply got in. It's a hall full of good players, criminals, and guys who cheated their way to success. Oh, and Jim Rice, who was simply a mediocre ballplayer.

I'm willing to bet that none of Bonds, Sosa, McGwire or Palmeiro (and possibly Clemens, too) make it to the HOF. That's one hell of a way to set a precedent right there.

thedudeabides
01-11-2010, 11:59 PM
I wonder how the comments of these MLB Network analysts will compare with their counterparts on ESPN.

I turned on ESPN to see. Honestly, I think it's just as bad these guys act disgusted about it. They were blasting McGuire, which is understandable, but all they kept talking about is how they all knew. Olney, and a lot of these guys were in the middle of it. How did they not know? Or call anyone out? If they knew, they should have been calling it out. If they didn't uncover it, they didn't do their jobs.

The press ignored it as much as the fans.

munchman33
01-12-2010, 12:02 AM
I'm willing to bet that none of Bonds, Sosa, McGwire or Palmeiro (and possibly Clemens, too) make it to the HOF. That's one hell of a way to set a precedent right there.

Well, you might be right. And I'd be happy. But it sure would be unfair to those players, who simply followed baseball's lead (in both not banning steroids outright and lauding historical cheaters with their highest honors).

Besides, HOF votes now are pretty meaningless. There are guys in there that are basically just above average. It wouldn't surprise me to see those guys left out, as it's more about the sportwriters' egos than it is about the player. And most of the fringe guys outside the hall are better than the fringe guys in it.

voodoochile
01-12-2010, 12:08 AM
Aren't they? And those were actually against baseball rules when people did them. People in the HOF right now.

No, clearly not. I mean no one cheated their way to breaking the HR record 5 times in 3 years or whatever. I mean it took 30 years for Maris to top Ruth and then it required extra games and an asterisk. Then ShamME* alone crushed it 3 times in a 4 year span.

Just check the number of known cheats littering this list...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/HR_season.shtml

Edit: I count 27 of the top 60 seasons occurring between 1995 and 2002 on that list. That's ridiculous...

Boondock Saint
01-12-2010, 12:15 AM
Well, you might be right. And I'd be happy. But it sure would be unfair to those players, who simply followed baseball's lead (in both not banning steroids outright and lauding historical cheaters with their highest honors).

Besides, HOF votes now are pretty meaningless. There are guys in there that are basically just above average. It wouldn't surprise me to see those guys left out, as it's more about the sportwriters' egos than it is about the player. And most of the fringe guys outside the hall are better than the fringe guys in it.

These cheaters knew that what they were doing was against the rules. If you want to talk about unfair, I'd say it's pretty unfair that these guys wait until they retire or get caught, then play the role of the ashamed victim. They didn't care enough about honesty when they were making millions of dollars, so why come clean now? I think it's because the HOF doesn't want them, and they think that their honesty will strike a chord with the voters.

Nellie_Fox
01-12-2010, 12:48 AM
There is no precedent for holding people out for simply breaking the law, and players using before baseball took action are only guilty of that.There's no precedent for anything until it's established. It's time to establish this one.

WhiteSox1989
01-12-2010, 01:07 AM
You would put murdering another player during a game on the same level as steroid use?

And physically harming other players IS in the baseball rulebook. That's why we see ejections.

It's purely a legal issue, and as far as those go, using steroids is hardly a big deal by comparison to even most other illegal drugs.

Like I said, I don't want steroid users in the Hall. But that's only based on personal feelings. Steroid users before baseball's ban did not break any baseball rules other than the blanket rule not to break the law. And that rule doesn't keep people out of the Hall of fame. There's more than 70 years of HOF precedent fighting against that argument.

This reminds me of the Damon interview after the whole A Rod thing last year.

Reporter: Johnny what could be worse than taking steroids?
Damon: Ummm..murdering someone.

munchman33
01-12-2010, 01:37 AM
No, clearly not. I mean no one cheated their way to breaking the HR record 5 times in 3 years or whatever. I mean it took 30 years for Maris to top Ruth and then it required extra games and an asterisk. Then ShamME* alone crushed it 3 times in a 4 year span.

Just check the number of known cheats littering this list...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/HR_season.shtml

Edit: I count 27 of the top 60 seasons occurring between 1995 and 2002 on that list. That's ridiculous...

These cheaters knew that what they were doing was against the rules. If you want to talk about unfair, I'd say it's pretty unfair that these guys wait until they retire or get caught, then play the role of the ashamed victim. They didn't care enough about honesty when they were making millions of dollars, so why come clean now? I think it's because the HOF doesn't want them, and they think that their honesty will strike a chord with the voters.

To be fair, you can't call them "cheaters" guys. That would seem to indicate MLB deemed taking steroids as cheating. They did not. There's a long list in the MLB rule book of what is cheating, and steroids was not there when these guys were taking. As much as you hate them for it, nothing said "don't take steroids, it's cheating." And no, breaking the law was not considered "cheating" either, only detrimental behaviour that could lead to fines and suspensions. Before steroids were made against the rules, only on field activities were considered cheating.

There's no precedent for anything until it's established. It's time to establish this one.

Fine, but punishing players ex post facto is a little harsh, don't you think?

Nellie_Fox
01-12-2010, 01:42 AM
Fine, but punishing players ex post facto is a little harsh, don't you think?It's not ex post facto. The HOF has long had a "character" qualification. Violating the laws of the land to gain a competitive edge is poor character.

And no, I don't think Gaylord Perry belongs in the HOF either, because he was an admitted cheater. Just thought I'd head that question off. And I'm sure you'll trot out other guys of "questionable character," but mistakes made in the past, or choices made in times of different values, don't then require that all future choices must be based on those lowered standards.

munchman33
01-12-2010, 01:53 AM
It's not ex post facto. The HOF has long had a "character" qualification. Violating the laws of the land to gain a competitive edge is poor character.

And no, I don't think Gaylord Perry belongs in the HOF either, because he was an admitted cheater. Just thought I'd head that question off. And I'm sure you'll trot out other guys of "questionable character," but mistakes made in the past, or choices made in times of different values, don't then require that all future choices must be based on those lowered standards.

Gaylord Perry actually broke the rules though. None of these guys did. Did they take advantage of the system? Absolutely. But they played within the rules. I don't want them in, but it would be unfair to punish someone for working within a broken system.

Nellie_Fox
01-12-2010, 02:03 AM
Gaylord Perry actually broke the rules though. None of these guys did. Did they take advantage of the system? Absolutely. But they played within the rules. I don't want them in, but it would be unfair to punish someone for working within a broken system.We're going around in circles. He violated federal and state laws to get a competitive advantage. That violates the "character" provision in my book.

Since neither you nor I have a vote for the HOF, and thus what we each think doesn't matter, I think I have grown tired of the debate.

munchman33
01-12-2010, 02:09 AM
We're going around in circles. He violated federal and state laws to get a competitive advantage. That violates the "character" provision in my book.

Since neither you nor I have a vote for the HOF, and thus what we each think doesn't matter, I think I have grown tired of the debate.

Well Nellie, that's the whole issue. I think it's pretty ****ty too. But if I DID have a vote, I'd probably let some of them in. Given the rules of the age, it's the right thing to do. Any vote otherwise is letting my personal feelings override the facts at hand.

RadioheadRocks
01-12-2010, 02:10 AM
In this corner... Less Filling!

In this corner... Tastes Great!

Let's get ready to RRRRRRuuuuuummmmbbbbllllleeeeeeee!!!!!!

goon
01-12-2010, 02:33 AM
All drugs have a physical effect, and it's impossible not to have a physical effect when something affects you psychologically.

It's not about having an effect, it's about have a positive result.

No one gains anything by using recreational drugs when playing a sport. That's a total fabrication. If you are talking about being more focused, whatever, but if you can't see the difference between coffee and steroids, then your judgement is skewed.

Chewing tobacco is going to keep you awake for the game, it isn't going to help you hit the ball 30 feet further.

munchman33
01-12-2010, 02:56 AM
It's not about having an effect, it's about have a positive result.

No one gains anything by using recreational drugs when playing a sport. That's a total fabrication. If you are talking about being more focused, whatever, but if you can't see the difference between coffee and steroids, then your judgement is skewed.

Chewing tobacco is going to keep you awake for the game, it isn't going to help you hit the ball 30 feet further.

Still wasn't against the rules....

WhiteSox5187
01-12-2010, 03:22 AM
Still wasn't against the rules....

Well there was that rule that said no player may be under any controlled substance unless prescribed by a doctor that was on the record since at least 1991, but don't let that get in the way of your argument.

Frontman
01-12-2010, 07:36 AM
You would put murdering another player during a game on the same level as steroid use?

And physically harming other players IS in the baseball rulebook. That's why we see ejections.

It's purely a legal issue, and as far as those go, using steroids is hardly a big deal by comparison to even most other illegal drugs.

Like I said, I don't want steroid users in the Hall. But that's only based on personal feelings. Steroid users before baseball's ban did not break any baseball rules other than the blanket rule not to break the law. And that rule doesn't keep people out of the Hall of fame. There's more than 70 years of HOF precedent fighting against that argument.

My point is that the "Well it wasn't against the rules of baseball" needs to stop being used as a blanket excuse for these steroid users who did use. And as its already been said, they cast a shadow so that we doubt every player who is great, seemingly to the point that some consider "Well, nobody from this era should be allowed into the Hall."

I've used this example as an over the top example. Ok fine; murdering a player is too heavy handed. How about kidnapping then? The player isn't hurt; he's just kept from participating in a key game. Is that fine?

Simply put, it isn't. These players who used should never be allowed into the Hall unless they do one thing:

Buy a ticket.

Kilroy
01-12-2010, 09:01 AM
No one gains anything by using recreational drugs when playing a sport.

Tell that to Lawrence Taylor.

asindc
01-12-2010, 09:13 AM
Tell that to Lawrence Taylor.

Or Doc Ellis.

Waysouthsider
01-12-2010, 09:30 AM
I didn't get to see the Costas interview until this morning. I'm fascinated and disgusted by:

1.) it was God who helped Mark, not steroids
2.) He "doesn't remember" what he took.
3.) He didn't take drugs to enhance performance but only for health reasons.
4.) He wouldn't have done it at all if it wasn't for the era he played in.
5.) He would have done just as well without steroids.
6.) Roger Maris' wife has a right to be disappointed, but yet, the steroids didn't affect his ability to break the single season record.
7.) Jose Canseco who has been right about all of these guys lied in his book about Mark's using steroids with him.

Finally, I'm disgusted by his drama queen emotionalism talking about wanting to come clean when he has only come clean when backed into the corner and absolutely forced to do so....

I don't know how anyone can possibly consider Mark McJuicer's statement or interviews yesterday as "coming clean"...it just sounded like rationalization, justification, projection, and playing the victim.

voodoochile
01-12-2010, 10:20 AM
To be fair, you can't call them "cheaters" guys. That would seem to indicate MLB deemed taking steroids as cheating. They did not. There's a long list in the MLB rule book of what is cheating, and steroids was not there when these guys were taking. As much as you hate them for it, nothing said "don't take steroids, it's cheating." And no, breaking the law was not considered "cheating" either, only detrimental behaviour that could lead to fines and suspensions. Before steroids were made against the rules, only on field activities were considered cheating.



Fine, but punishing players ex post facto is a little harsh, don't you think?


I can call them whatever the heck I want to. It's an opinion statement. They cheated.

voodoochile
01-12-2010, 10:25 AM
I didn't get to see the Costas interview until this morning. I'm fascinated and disgusted by:

1.) it was God who helped Mark, not steroids
2.) He "doesn't remember" what he took.
3.) He didn't take drugs to enhance performance but only for health reasons.
4.) He wouldn't have done it at all if it wasn't for the era he played in.
5.) He would have done just as well without steroids.
6.) Roger Maris' wife has a right to be disappointed, but yet, the steroids didn't affect his ability to break the single season record.
7.) Jose Canseco who has been right about all of these guys lied in his book about Mark's using steroids with him.

Finally, I'm disgusted by his drama queen emotionalism talking about wanting to come clean when he has only come clean when backed into the corner and absolutely forced to do so....

I don't know how anyone can possibly consider Mark McJuicer's statement or interviews yesterday as "coming clean"...it just sounded like rationalization, justification, projection, and playing the victim.

Yep regardless of the "era" he played in, it's not like a gang of roving steroid pushers tackled him yanked down his pants and injected his ass.

Everyone was doing it is not germane to the issue. If all the players had decided to jump off a bridge would he have done that too? Only if there was a big fat pot of money to land in...

thedudeabides
01-12-2010, 10:27 AM
Or Doc Ellis.


On a lighter note, Robin Williams latest HBO special, he has a bit about Doc Ellis pithing a no hitter on acid. It was pretty funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO281JqXQdc

Warning: foul language.

voodoochile
01-12-2010, 11:11 AM
On a lighter note, Robin Williams latest HBO special, he has a bit about Doc Ellis pithing a no hitter on acid. It was pretty funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO281JqXQdc

Warning: foul language.

And Robin gets it right, Doc doing that is not a testament to the helpful effects of being on acid to physical performance, but an amazing feat because he WAS on acid.

You want to know about the long term effects of taking recreational drugs on playing sports, go read the end of life interviews with Micky Mantle. Drugs are a crutch that addicts rely on and justify, not something that makes you a better performer.

Stimulants are the rare exception, but they have to be ones that don't have other effects to be seriously helpful and all of them reach a point of diminishing return as hard core addiction kicks in...

SI1020
01-12-2010, 11:23 AM
And Robin gets it right, Doc doing that is not a testament to the helpful effects of being on acid to physical performance, but an amazing feat because he WAS on acid.

You want to know about the long term effects of taking recreational drugs on playing sports, go read the end of life interviews with Micky Mantle. Drugs are a crutch that addicts rely on and justify, not something that makes you a better performer.

Stimulants are the rare exception, but they have to be ones that don't have other effects to be seriously helpful and all of them reach a point of diminishing return as hard core addiction kicks in... The "greenies" of yesteryear are hardly comparable to the powerful designer PEDs used by some of today's athletes. Also, as you stated long term use is going to tank your performance, not enhance it.

thomas35forever
01-12-2010, 12:45 PM
How Tim Kurkjian can say these home run records can't be taken away is beyond me.

Marqhead
01-12-2010, 12:49 PM
How Tim Kurkjian can say these home run records can't be taken away is beyond me.

The thing about Tim Kurkjian is, well, he's not very good at his job.

Viva Medias B's
01-12-2010, 01:33 PM
The thing about Tim Kurkjian is, well, he's not very good at his job.

He's an ESPN dope. God, I wish the hell I had MLBN on my cable system. Memo to Wide Open West: Where is MLBN?

Nellie_Fox
01-12-2010, 02:29 PM
How Tim Kurkjian can say these home run records can't be taken away is beyond me.
Because it opens a whole can of worms. If the homerun is taken off the books, does it also come off the pitcher's earned run average? His won/lost totals? Do they go back and change the outcome of the game? After all, the home that won the game "didn't happen." Do they give Frank Thomas his MVP, and then cancel the nullification of his contract due to the "diminished skills" clause that would not have been invoked?

The records will be forever tainted. I think we'll just have to live with that.

spawn
01-12-2010, 02:39 PM
Because it opens a whole can of worms. If the homerun is taken off the books, does it also come off the pitcher's earned run average? His won/lost totals? Do they go back and change the outcome of the game? After all, the home that won the game "didn't happen." Do they give Frank Thomas his MVP, and then cancel the nullification of his contract due to the "diminished skills" clause that would not have been invoked?

The records will be forever tainted. I think we'll just have to live with that.
I agree completely. Also, What about the pitchers that tested positive? Do you take away their wins? In Roger Clemens case, take away strikeouts? Where do you draw the line? I agree that we'll just have to deal with the records being tainted.

Marqhead
01-12-2010, 03:00 PM
Because it opens a whole can of worms. If the homerun is taken off the books, does it also come off the pitcher's earned run average? His won/lost totals? Do they go back and change the outcome of the game? After all, the home that won the game "didn't happen." Do they give Frank Thomas his MVP, and then cancel the nullification of his contract due to the "diminished skills" clause that would not have been invoked?

The records will be forever tainted. I think we'll just have to live with that.

I agree completely. Also, What about the pitchers that tested positive? Do you take away their wins? In Roger Clemens case, take away strikeouts? Where do you draw the line? I agree that we'll just have to deal with the records being tainted.

I guess I was thinking more in terms of what will be recognized as the all time records. I don't advocate striking anything from the books because of the problems you both present. I think it is plausible to say McGwire's 70 home runs are no longer recognized as the 2nd most in history. Of course it isn't easy to accept that, and to a great extent we will probably have to live with the notion that a lot of the modern day records are tainted.

downstairs
01-12-2010, 03:25 PM
I guess I was thinking more in terms of what will be recognized as the all time records. I don't advocate striking anything from the books because of the problems you both present. I think it is plausible to say McGwire's 70 home runs are no longer recognized as the 2nd most in history. Of course it isn't easy to accept that, and to a great extent we will probably have to live with the notion that a lot of the modern day records are tainted.

Even if someone had the "authority" to do that, it would all be for a silly show. You and I know Bonds hit the most homeruns all time and in a single season. It sucks, but you can't un-think or un-remember it.

I really think the key is to just get beyond it, and fast.

And then I guess hope someone else breaks it down the road.

Marqhead
01-12-2010, 03:49 PM
Even if someone had the "authority" to do that, it would all be for a silly show. You and I know Bonds hit the most homeruns all time and in a single season. It sucks, but you can't un-think or un-remember it.

I really think the key is to just get beyond it, and fast.

And then I guess hope someone else breaks it down the road.

Yeah it'll be nice when Arod finally breaks it. Oh wait....:D:

I'm in that same boat. As much as I wish there weren't cheaters in the MLB, it really just doesn't matter as much as I thought it might. I guess knowing how wide spread PED use was makes it seem less of an offense.

Hopefully the game gets cleaner and these records get wiped out by clean, more likable athletes.

Frontman
01-12-2010, 05:34 PM
Yeah it'll be nice when Arod finally breaks it. Oh wait....:D:

I'm in that same boat. As much as I wish there weren't cheaters in the MLB, it really just doesn't matter as much as I thought it might. I guess knowing how wide spread PED use was makes it seem less of an offense.

Hopefully the game gets cleaner and these records get wiped out by clean, more likable athletes.

What Mark is hoping for is to be the hitting coach who coaches Albert to breaking the single season record.

SOXSINCE'70
01-12-2010, 07:04 PM
And the sun rises in the east...

I know it's true because Steve Stone told me so.:D:

doublem23
01-12-2010, 08:24 PM
I'm not even going to bother trying to pick through this thread but I will say that Joe Posnanski is, once again, a sane voice in a world of sports banter that's otherwise dominated by buffoons like Mariotti and Woody Page.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/joe_posnanski/01/12/posnanski.mcgwire/index.html?eref=sihp

Game. Set. Match.

Viva Medias B's
01-12-2010, 10:12 PM
Jose Canseco was scheduled to be on "Larry King Live" to react to all this tonight, but he cancelled his appearance at the last minuite saying he was "having a breakdown."

DSpivack
01-12-2010, 10:37 PM
I'm not even going to bother trying to pick through this thread but I will say that Joe Posnanski is, once again, a sane voice in a world of sports banter that's otherwise dominated by buffoons like Mariotti and Woody Page.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/joe_posnanski/01/12/posnanski.mcgwire/index.html?eref=sihp

Game. Set. Match.

Would he say the same for Barry Bonds?

thedudeabides
01-12-2010, 11:37 PM
Would he say the same for Barry Bonds?

There is so much double talk, it's impossible to believe anything. I just watched McGwire give Bob Ley an interview(who I think is maybe the last journalist at ESPN) and completely discounts Conseco. Is McGwire any better? Or more believable?

DSpivack
01-12-2010, 11:49 PM
There is so much double talk, it's impossible to believe anything. I just watched McGwire give Bob Ley an interview(who I think is maybe the last journalist at ESPN) and completely discounts Conseco. Is McGwire any better? Or more believable?

I view McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, et al in a more or less equal light. If he wasn't a total sleazebag, I would actually have some respect for Canseco. At least he's honest. Maybe.

SOXfnNlansing
01-12-2010, 11:56 PM
I just love Bob Ley. He's the only thing good at ESPN.

thedudeabides
01-13-2010, 12:44 AM
I just love Bob Ley. He's the only thing good at ESPN.

Couldn't agree more.

spawn
01-13-2010, 06:53 AM
There is so much double talk, it's impossible to believe anything. I just watched McGwire give Bob Ley an interview(who I think is maybe the last journalist at ESPN) and completely discounts Conseco. Is McGwire any better? Or more believable?
The more McGwire talks, the less credible he sounds IMO. So, he believes that his steroid use had nothing to do with his putting up the numbers he did, yet he apologizes to the Maris family, and is completely tearful about it now? So what is he apologizing for? He did it to recover from injuries, yet he continued to use them even when he was healthy? It just doesn't add up. Bryan Burwell was interviewed on the Score last night, and he had some interesting things to say. I guess the consulting firm Ari Fleischer is who McGwire used to craft his "apology". He believes McGwire is full of ****, as do I. Burwell has a nice article as well:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/bryanburwell/story/CC1F3190BBD68941862576A9001B26B8?OpenDocument

thedudeabides
01-13-2010, 10:08 AM
The more McGwire talks, the less credible he sounds IMO. So, he believes that his steroid use had nothing to do with his putting up the numbers he did, yet he apologizes to the Maris family, and is completely tearful about it now? So what is he apologizing for? He did it to recover from injuries, yet he continued to use them even when he was healthy? It just doesn't add up. Bryan Burwell was interviewed on the Score last night, and he had some interesting things to say. I guess the consulting firm Ari Fleischer is who McGwire used to craft his "apology". He believes McGwire is full of ****, as do I. Burwell has a nice article as well:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/bryanburwell/story/CC1F3190BBD68941862576A9001B26B8?OpenDocument

I'm not trying to turn this into a politics thing, but he sounds a little bit like Blagojevich. He seems convinced he didn't do anything wrong. There are excuses stacked on top of excuses. He talks about how he wishes he didn't play in the steroid era. He still made the decision to put the dangerous drugs into his body, nobody else is responsible for that. The guy had 49 homeruns his rookie year, supposedly clean. Did he really need steroids?

spawn
01-13-2010, 10:14 AM
I'm not trying to turn this into a politics thing, but he sounds a little bit like Blagojevich. He seems convinced he didn't do anything wrong. There are excuses stacked on top of excuses. He talks about how he wishes he didn't play in the steroid era. He still made the decision to put the dangerous drugs into his body, nobody else is responsible for that. The guy had 49 homeruns his rookie year, supposedly clean. Did he really need steroids?
That's my issue with it. If you're going to apologize, then apologize. Don't say things like "I wish I hadn't played in the steroid era". Well, as you said, no one forced him into using. Also, there were plenty of players that played during that era that didn't use. If he was only using them to get healthy again, then why is he sorry for taking them? Why is he apologizing? It just all rings very hollow to me.

Noneck
01-13-2010, 12:05 PM
The one thing that no one has brought up is why is McGwire actually doing this now? To get a hitting instructors job just doesn't make sense. This will never lead to a managerial position or anything higher. For the love of the game? I am sorry but to go through all this for that doesn't make sense either. I don't see Sosa, Bonds or any of the other juicers knocking on anyone's door. Is this guy busted? Did he go through all his money already?

VeeckAsInWreck
01-13-2010, 12:10 PM
In case anyone missed it, here's Canseco on MLB Network last night.

http://mlbnetwork.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=7148561&topic_id=7417714

FarWestChicago
01-16-2010, 07:43 AM
In case you feel sorry McGroids (http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/34847507/ns/sports-baseball/).

happydude
01-16-2010, 12:46 PM
In case you feel sorry McGroids (http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/34847507/ns/sports-baseball/).

That's a very damning article but I would believe that it simply validates what the great majority of us think, anyway. McGwire's claim that he only used steroids/HGH to recover from various injuries rings hollow for the reasons already pointed out in this thread by Spawn and others. It is likely that those who believe him are either big fans of his or those who vouched for him previously and now will look for ways to regain their own credibility (like LaRussa).

Honestly, it should be clear that using steroids to "only recover from inuries" is, in fact, a method of performance enhancement. There are countless athletes in every sport that, but for injury, would have played better/longer.

That being said, it may be time to stop dissecting his "apology". He said what he said. We don't have to believe it to the word; we're entitled to our opinions.

The bottom line is that no matter the truthfulness or sincerity of his apology he's clearly going to be regarded as less of a baseball player than he appeared to be in the 90's and that won't change no matter what he says or doesn't say. We all may be better served by moving on.

southside rocks
01-16-2010, 03:31 PM
Jose Canseco was scheduled to be on "Larry King Live" to react to all this tonight, but he cancelled his appearance at the last minuite saying he was "having a breakdown."

I think that means he ran out of hair gel.



Honestly, it should be clear that using steroids to "only recover from injuries" is, in fact, a method of performance enhancement. There are countless athletes in every sport that, but for injury, would have played better/longer.


Frank Thomas, for example. And Ken Griffey, Jr. I totally agree with you.

Nellie_Fox
01-17-2010, 01:10 AM
I think that means he ran out of hair gel.Canseco has destroyed his health with steroids. Don't understated the psychological toll of the stress he's going through with trying to get his own body functioning correctly again.

Frontman
01-17-2010, 01:43 AM
To be fair, you can't call them "cheaters" guys. That would seem to indicate MLB deemed taking steroids as cheating. They did not. There's a long list in the MLB rule book of what is cheating, and steroids was not there when these guys were taking. As much as you hate them for it, nothing said "don't take steroids, it's cheating." And no, breaking the law was not considered "cheating" either, only detrimental behaviour that could lead to fines and suspensions. Before steroids were made against the rules, only on field activities were considered cheating.


Ok, then lets call them what they are:

Liars, criminals, and felons.

Sounds like the people who belong in the Hall of Fame, right?

Oh, and one thing I want to say to every pinhead who calls in/texts/posts on a message board that spitball and doctor ball pitchers are cheaters as well and don't be long in the hall of fame:

You can examine a ball to see scuffs and spit. You can't examine a player (as they claim right to medical privacy) prior to random drug testing being introduced. Rolly Fingers got away with it because the umpire didn't examine the ball.

Nellie_Fox
01-17-2010, 02:28 AM
Oh, and one thing I want to say to every pinhead who calls in/texts/posts on a message board that spitball and doctor ball pitchers are cheaters as well and don't belong in the hall of fame:

You can examine a ball to see scuffs and spit. You can't examine a player (as they claim right to medical privacy) prior to random drug testing being introduced. Rolly Fingers got away with it because the umpire didn't examine the ball.


[S]pitball and doctor ball pitchers are cheaters as well and don't belong in the hall of fame.


Call me a pinhead all you wish. I don't give a damn if the umpires failed to catch them. I despise when people say "it's not cheating if you don't get caught." Their cheating existed whether or not anyone caught them, and they don't belong in the HOF. Gaylor Perry bragged about it.

Frontman
01-17-2010, 10:18 AM
[S]pitball and doctor ball pitchers are cheaters as well and don't belong in the hall of fame.


Call me a pinhead all you wish. I don't give a damn if the umpires failed to catch them. I despise when people say "it's not cheating if you don't get caught." Their cheating existed whether or not anyone caught them, and they don't belong in the HOF. Gaylor Perry bragged about it.

I'm not talking about guys like you who don't want any cheaters in the hall, Nellie (so please don't think the pinhead was for you) but its the Bonds and McGwire apologists who point to Gaylor Perry and say, "Well, he's in; so Bonds/Sosa/McGwire belong in."

No, they don't. The Hall isn't like a retirement pension. It's an award bestowed on a player. But just like we can't turn back the clock and return Henry Aaron and Roger Maris to the home run kings; we can't go back and pull Perry out of the Hall of Fame.

But we certainly can keep out the criminal cheaters.

WhiteSox5187
01-18-2010, 12:53 AM
The Onion's take: http://www.theonion.com/content/news/mark_mcgwire_admits_it_was_really

SOXSINCE'70
01-18-2010, 12:45 PM
The Onion's take: http://www.theonion.com/content/news/mark_mcgwire_admits_it_was_really

The scary part: I'd be more likely to belive "The Onion"
than Mark McGwire.

soxfanatlanta
01-18-2010, 12:56 PM
The Onion's take: http://www.theonion.com/content/news/mark_mcgwire_admits_it_was_really

I think the last paragraph was my favorite part.

TommyJohn
01-18-2010, 01:34 PM
Well, St. Louie fans let their feelings be known-they gave him a sustained standing ovation at the team's fan convention. I guess those of us who actually care about how the game is played are the weirdos. That's how it feels, anyway. I would never applaud that lying piece of **** under any circumstances.

TornLabrum
01-18-2010, 04:22 PM
Well, St. Louie fans let their feelings be known-they gave him a sustained standing ovation at the team's fan convention. I guess those of us who actually care about how the game is played are the weirdos. That's how it feels, anyway. I would never applaud that lying piece of **** under any circumstances.

St. Louis fans want to concentrate on the future, not the past.

SOXSINCE'70
01-18-2010, 07:58 PM
St. Louis fans want to concentrate on the future, not the past.

:roflmao:

RadioheadRocks
01-19-2010, 12:33 AM
I'm not talking about guys like you who don't want any cheaters in the hall, Nellie (so please don't think the pinhead was for you) but its the Bonds and McGwire apologists who point to Gaylor Perry and say, "Well, he's in; so Bonds/Sosa/McGwire belong in."

No, they don't. The Hall isn't like a retirement pension. It's an award bestowed on a player. But just like we can't turn back the clock and return Henry Aaron and Roger Maris to the home run kings; we can't go back and pull Perry out of the Hall of Fame.

But we certainly can keep out the criminal cheaters.

And therein lies the whole issue... the horse has already left the barn.