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Waysouthsider
01-06-2010, 09:07 AM
So, folks, who gets in the HOF this afternoon?

sox1970
01-06-2010, 09:21 AM
Alomar and Blyleven. Dawson just misses.

aryzner
01-06-2010, 09:26 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/i/magazine/new/emanski_mcgriff.jpg

The Crime Dog himself says, "LET ME IN!"

downstairs
01-06-2010, 12:34 PM
Alomar and Blyleven. Dawson just misses.

Dawson consistently votes higher than Blyleven. I checked the last 3 years, sure it goes back further.

And its a very consistent number they both get.

So I have a hard time believing Blyleven will somehow jump 40+ votes ahead this year for no good reason?

tstrike2000
01-06-2010, 01:04 PM
I can see Dawson and Alomar making it.

sox1970
01-06-2010, 01:25 PM
Dawson consistently votes higher than Blyleven. I checked the last 3 years, sure it goes back further.

And its a very consistent number they both get.

So I have a hard time believing Blyleven will somehow jump 40+ votes ahead this year for no good reason?

Good point, but how many years left of eligibility does Blyleven have? Maybe both make it this year.

roylestillman
01-06-2010, 02:02 PM
It's Andre Dawson (77.9%)

Whitey Herzog gets in from the Vet's comm.

Blylevan got 74.2% missed by 5 votes.

goofymsfan
01-06-2010, 02:05 PM
It's Andre Dawson (77.9%)

Whitey Herzog gets in from the Vet's comm.

So no Alomar?

CHISOXFAN13
01-06-2010, 02:06 PM
Blyleven was five votes shy. He will make it next year.

roylestillman
01-06-2010, 02:06 PM
So no Alomar?

Got 73.7%

Viva Medias B's
01-06-2010, 02:06 PM
How could Roberto Alomar not make it (yet)? EDIT: Are BWAAA writers voting against him because of the spitting incident, which was one exception to usually otherwise mild mannered behavior by Alomar throughout his career?

Viva Medias B's
01-06-2010, 02:08 PM
Where's Jaime Navarro?

ewokpelts
01-06-2010, 02:09 PM
dawson will go in as an expo.

goofymsfan
01-06-2010, 02:09 PM
Got 73.7%

:bandance: On bad behavior, I'm glad he was kept out this year. How close was Edgar?

Viva Medias B's
01-06-2010, 02:10 PM
Bobby Valentine: Reporters are "brain dead."

CHISOXFAN13
01-06-2010, 02:10 PM
:bandance: On bad behavior, I'm glad he was kept out this year. How close was Edgar?

Not even. He got 36.2 pct.

hdog1017
01-06-2010, 02:10 PM
Alomar not making it does not make any sense whatsoever. Did Joe Morgan petition against another 2B getting into the Hall?

goofymsfan
01-06-2010, 02:11 PM
Not even. He got 36.2 pct.

OUCH! Stupid NL writers.

Viva Medias B's
01-06-2010, 02:13 PM
dawson will go in as an expo.

Nice.

dickallen15
01-06-2010, 02:14 PM
Bobby Valentine: Reporters are "brain dead."
I agree. I was working out yesterday and Around the Horn was on one of the TVs. Jay Marriotti has a HOF vote. That is beyond ridiculous.

Viva Medias B's
01-06-2010, 02:15 PM
I agree. I was working out yesterday and Around the Horn was on one of the TVs. Jay Marriotti has a HOF vote. That is beyond ridiculous.

:moron
"I'm not voting for someone who played for the Smut Sox."

DISCLAIMER: We do not know how Mariotti really voted, of course, but none of us would put his voting against Alomar because he was a member of the White Sox past Mariotti.

roylestillman
01-06-2010, 02:17 PM
Link to vote results (bottom of the article:

http://community.baseballhall.org/Page.aspx?pid=569

Viva Medias B's
01-06-2010, 02:18 PM
Link to vote results (bottom of the article:

http://community.baseballhall.org/Page.aspx?pid=569

OMG!!!! How could no one vote for Mike Jackson???

voodoochile
01-06-2010, 02:20 PM
Got 73.7%

That's just wrong, he's probably the greatest 2B ever to play the game (for now, give Beckham 15 years, we'll talk :wink: ).

Edit: I mean of all the players who played 75% of their games at 2B Alomar is top 5 in every single offensive category save HR where he is 9th.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/bsl_finder.cgi#n1=&as=result_batter&offset=0&sum=1&min_year_season=1901&max_year_season=2009&min_season=1&max_season=-1&min_age=0&max_age=99&lg_ID=lgAny&lgAL_team=tmAny&lgNL_team=tmAny&lgFL_team=tmAny&lgAA_team=tmAny&lgPL_team=tmAny&lgUA_team=tmAny&lgNA_team=tmAny&isActive=retired&isHOF=either&bats=any&throws=any&games_prop=75&games_tot=&exactness=anymarked&pos_second_base=1&qualifiersSeason=nomin&minpasValS=502&mingamesValS=100&qualifiersCareer=nomin&minpasValC=3000&mingamesValC=1000&orderby=HR&layout=full&c1bsl=&c1gtlt=gt&c1val=0&c2bsl=&c2gtlt=gt&c2val=0&c3bsl=&c3gtlt=gt&c3val=0&c4bsl=&c4gtlt=gt&c4val=0&c5bsl=&c5gtlt=eq&c5val=1.0&c5bsl_b=&location=pob&locationMatch=is&pob=&pod=&pcanada=&pusa=

WhiteSox5187
01-06-2010, 02:23 PM
That's just wrong, he's probably the greatest 2B ever to play the game (for now, give Beckham 15 years, we'll talk :wink: ).

I don't think he was as good as Rogers Hornsby, but he's up there. My question is: who the hell voted for Dave Segui??

Hitmen77
01-06-2010, 02:23 PM
Congratulations to Andre Dawson. He deserves to be in the Hall of Fame.

He is one of the very few Cubs players over the last 25 years that I liked. By the way, he played 11 seasons for the Expos and 6 for the Cubs. So he may not have much say about going in as an Expo.

tstrike2000
01-06-2010, 02:24 PM
I'm happy for The Hawk, he deserved it. Alomar and Blyleven will be in next year's class.

DSpivack
01-06-2010, 02:29 PM
:bandance: On bad behavior, I'm glad he was kept out this year. How close was Edgar?

Ty Cobb had a bad attitude, too. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be HOFers. What a joke.

WhiteSox5187
01-06-2010, 02:31 PM
OUCH! Stupid NL writers.

You know I read a ton of articles explaining why Edgar should be in the HOF, but Harold Baines put up better numbers than Edgar and no one was pleading his case. And unlike Edgar, Harold was a very good fielder until he destroyed his knees. Christ, Baines numbers are comparable to Jim Rice's and Andre Dawson's and Harold played in more pitcher friendly parks. I can understand if people think he's not a HOFer, that's fine, but had Harold played in Boston or New York, I suspect he'd be getting more votes.

Waysouthsider
01-06-2010, 02:38 PM
You know I read a ton of articles explaining why Edgar should be in the HOF, but Harold Baines put up better numbers than Edgar and no one was pleading his case. And unlike Edgar, Harold was a very good fielder until he destroyed his knees. Christ, Baines numbers are comparable to Jim Rice's and Andre Dawson's and Harold played in more pitcher friendly parks. I can understand if people think he's not a HOFer, that's fine, but had Harold played in Boston or New York, I suspect he'd be getting more votes.


I agree with this totally.....I think the "longevity" with a shortage of stellar seasons workes against HB...but that argument gets conveniently ignored when the player played on the East Coast and had a good relationship with the media.

CHISOXFAN13
01-06-2010, 02:40 PM
I don't think he was as good as Rogers Hornsby, but he's up there. My question is: who the hell voted for Dave Segui??

LOL. I laughed when I saw that, though it pisses me off that writers can vote for a player like that. How in the hell is Segui even on the ballot?

DSpivack
01-06-2010, 02:42 PM
http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/baseball/story/1410959.html

voodoochile
01-06-2010, 02:43 PM
I don't think he was as good as Rogers Hornsby, but he's up there. My question is: who the hell voted for Dave Segui??

Good point and because I'm not a subscriber, actually I lose a lot of data including Hornsby and 4 others who I am blocked from seeing (I assume Sandberg and Morgan are two of them). When I sort the data, the blank lines drop to the bottom artificially inflating Alomar's numbers. Still, he's got some very impressive numbers for a 2B historically

voodoochile
01-06-2010, 02:43 PM
LOL. I laughed when I saw that, though it pisses me off that writers can vote for a player like that. How in the hell is Segui even on the ballot?

Every eligible player is automatically placed on it.

WhiteSox5187
01-06-2010, 02:44 PM
LOL. I laughed when I saw that, though it pisses me off that writers can vote for a player like that. How in the hell is Segui even on the ballot?

I think all you have to do to get on the ballot is play something like ten years.

spawn
01-06-2010, 02:46 PM
Ty Cobb had a bad attitude, too. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be HOFers. What a joke.
Agreed. Alomar should be in.

WhiteSox5187
01-06-2010, 02:47 PM
Good point and because I'm not a subscriber, actually I lose a lot of data including Hornsby and 4 others who I am blocked from seeing (I assume Sandberg and Morgan are two of them). When I sort the data, the blank lines drop to the bottom artificially inflating Alomar's numbers. Still, he's got some very impressive numbers for a 2B historically

I have no clue what you're talking about...but I will agree that Alomar is one of the best second basemen of all time. I never saw Morgan play, but he's as good if not better than Sandberg.

Chez
01-06-2010, 02:48 PM
Eric Karros got two votes! Eric Karros! If I'm Blyleven or Alomar and find out that someone voted for Karros or Burks or Appier or Hentgen instead of me, I'd be more than a little pissed off.

sox1970
01-06-2010, 02:50 PM
Eric Karros got two votes! Eric Karros! If I'm Blyleven or Alomar and find out that someone voted for Karros or Burks or Hentgen instead of me, I'd be more than a little pissed off.

I call these "friend" votes. Robin Ventura has seven friends.

WhiteSox5187
01-06-2010, 02:52 PM
Eric Karros got two votes! Eric Karros! If I'm Blyleven or Alomar and find out that someone voted for Karros or Burks or Appier or Hentgen instead of me, I'd be more than a little pissed off.

Didn't Eric Karros own that batting cage on 111th off of Western? Baseball Alley? If he did, he'd get my vote!

gregoriop
01-06-2010, 02:52 PM
I call these "friend" votes. Robin Ventura has seven friends.


I was about to mention this...


You're in gregoriop's Hall of Fame, Robin!

Lip Man 1
01-06-2010, 02:54 PM
I would think Dawson would go in as an Expo but keep in mind the way MLB handled the entire Montreal situation was an embarrassment. They might not want to draw more attention to that entire stain by having him go in wearing the cap of a franchise that no longer exists.

And it is typical Cub to be bragging about a player that won the MVP honor yet the team finished last...but then Cub fans were always more concerned about individual accomplishments as opposed to winning championships (aka Sammy Sosa)

Lip

gregoriop
01-06-2010, 02:54 PM
Things aren't looking too great for Mark McGwire with 128 votes. On the other hand, Harold Baines has 33 more Hall of Fame votes than Derek Jeter does.

StepsInSC
01-06-2010, 02:55 PM
but Harold Baines put up better numbers than Edgar and no one was pleading his case.

Except for a pretty huge difference in their slash stats, to begin with:

Edgar: 312/418/515
Baines: 289/356/465

voodoochile
01-06-2010, 02:57 PM
I have no clue what you're talking about...but I will agree that Alomar is one of the best second basemen of all time. I never saw Morgan play, but he's as good if not better than Sandberg.

I edited in a link to the BB Reference site where the criteria is retired 2B since 1901. The data is sortable, but the blank out the top 5 players unless you are a subscriber then when you sort it by other criteria, those 5 slots get ignored. It's what I was basing my statement on, actually it drops Alomar down to top 10 in every major category probably, though I'm sure he has more SB and hits than some of the players not showing up.

downstairs
01-06-2010, 03:10 PM
I would think Dawson would go in as an Expo but keep in mind the way MLB handled the entire Montreal situation was an embarrassment. They might not want to draw more attention to that entire stain by having him go in wearing the cap of a franchise that no longer exists.

And it is typical Cub to be bragging about a player that won the MVP honor yet the team finished last...but then Cub fans were always more concerned about individual accomplishments as opposed to winning championships (aka Sammy Sosa)

Lip

He was with Montreal longer. Got his ROY with them. Was 2nd in MVP balloting twice with them. He was only close once with the Cubs, his first year with them when he won. He was in his only winning playoff series with Montreal.

kruzer31
01-06-2010, 03:18 PM
How is Ozzie Smith a first ballot HOF, and Alan Trammel gets no respect, check the stats

Jeff

SaltyPretzel
01-06-2010, 03:20 PM
How is Ozzie Smith a first ballot HOF, and Alan Trammel gets no respect, check the stats

Jeff

Alan Trammel can't do backflips.

downstairs
01-06-2010, 03:22 PM
This whole first ballot junk has to stop. If someone is a hall of famer in your mind, vote for them. End of story.

BleacherBandit
01-06-2010, 03:24 PM
How is Ozzie Smith a first ballot HOF, and Alan Trammel gets no respect, check the stats

Jeff

Never thought about that. There really isn't any catergory where Smith is better than Trammell, aside from the gold gloves. In fact, Trammell had a relatively good BA of .285, while Smith's BA was .262

CHISOXFAN13
01-06-2010, 03:27 PM
Didn't Eric Karros own that batting cage on 111th off of Western? Baseball Alley? If he did, he'd get my vote!

That was Eric Pappas.

Lip Man 1
01-06-2010, 03:30 PM
Down:

Didn't the Expos lose their playoff series in 1981?

Lip

Lip Man 1
01-06-2010, 03:31 PM
http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/01/dawson-uncertain-which-cap-he-will-wear-in-hall.html

Lip

TDog
01-06-2010, 03:39 PM
Eric Karros got two votes! Eric Karros! If I'm Blyleven or Alomar and find out that someone voted for Karros or Burks or Appier or Hentgen instead of me, I'd be more than a little pissed off.

I don't believe anyone uses all 10 votes they are allowed. A ballot with Karros on it certainly had room for Blyleven or Alomar. Usually voters will vote for one or two strong candidates they believe deserve Hall of Fame induction and vote for a couple for other reasons. Sometimes they will vote for players they believe deserve the honor despite having little support. Sometimes they vote for players they developed a friendship or rapport with, knowing there won't be many votes out there. Sometimes voters make a statement by voting for players they know have no chance while leaving off others with great support. There have been voters who have turned in blank ballots because they believe no one on the ballot belongs in the Hall of Fame. I'm not sure if that is allowed anymore, but turning in a ballot with only Karros named on it would accomplish the same thing.

I'm a little surprised Dawson made it. Not having a ballot, I didn't think how I would fill one out, but I didn't expect Dawson to get enough support. I'm surprised Blyleven got as much support as he did. It appears that he is getting more support as more writers who have never seen him pitch become eligible to vote. I know I would never vote for Blyleven.

It's good to see Harold Baines get a little more support, maintaining enough to stay on the ballot. One thing I know is that I would vote for Harold if I had a ballot. I probably would have voted for Robin Ventura, too, because I wouldn't want to see him get shut out.

TDog
01-06-2010, 03:44 PM
How is Ozzie Smith a first ballot HOF, and Alan Trammel gets no respect, check the stats

Jeff

Did you ever see Ozzie Smith play? He is there for his defense. So is Luis Aparicio for that matter, although Aparicio was about base stealing as well.

The Hall of Fame isn't about stats.

goofymsfan
01-06-2010, 03:46 PM
Ty Cobb had a bad attitude, too. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be HOFers. What a joke.

Never said he didn't belong, he does belong, but not as a 1st timer.

Dibbs
01-06-2010, 03:49 PM
I never understood these arrogant jerks who can change their vote from year to year. Alomar should be in. How could you not vote for him?

NardiWasHere
01-06-2010, 03:54 PM
I never understood these arrogant jerks who can change their vote from year to year. Alomar should be in. How could you not vote for him?

I also hate/don't understand the whole "no one has ever gotten in unanimously" thing.

That's just silly

wilburaga
01-06-2010, 04:01 PM
This whole first ballot junk has to stop. If someone is a hall of famer in your mind, vote for them. End of story.

I fully agree, but my impression is it's only getting worse. When I saw that Rickey was left off several ballots last year, I knew Robbie was not going to skate in his first year. For many writers you have to be a complete player to go in on your first ballot. The most interesting case looming is # 35. The DH stigma, the one-dimensional perception, and lack of postseason heroics will hurt him with many writers his first time up, IMHO.

W

kobo
01-06-2010, 04:06 PM
Never said he didn't belong, he does belong, but not as a 1st timer.
Why not? Because he spit on an ump? And now he and the ump, whose name escapes me, are friends and run a charity together. And I think the ump was even endorsing and pushing for Alomar to be inducted. So it appears the two have made up and are friends now and have put the incident behind them. Apparently writers can't do the same.

This notion that some players are first ballot hall of famers and others aren't is antiquated and ridiculous. If you're a HOF player, why does it matter when you're inducted? Alomar is one of the top 5-6 2B of all time. He should have been inducted this year.

thomas35forever
01-06-2010, 04:11 PM
Nice to see Dawson get in. Blyleven has two years of eligibility left, so after today, there's no way he won't get in. Alomar probably should have gotten in first-ballot. I was also shocked Larkin didn't get that many votes. Maybe later on in his eligibility? Finally, Baines is lucky to still be on the ballot year after year. There's no way he'll get in.

That's my take.

russ99
01-06-2010, 04:15 PM
Not even. He got 36.2 pct.

Yikes. If Edgar got that then say goodbye to Frank's first ballot enshrinement...

The Hurt will get closer, but the DH is a stigma for Hall voters.

PalehosePlanet
01-06-2010, 04:17 PM
I have nothing against Andre Dawson, but if Dick Allen is not in the HOF how can Dawson possibly be?

A lifetime .323 OBP? Barely over an .800 career OPS and only one year where he finished above .900, and a OPS+ of 119?

Dick Allen's career OBP is .378, OPS is .912 with 8 years of over .900 and 3 of over 1.000, and an OPS+ of 156.

Not to mention that Allen played in a pitcher's era. Does not make sense.

Zisk77
01-06-2010, 04:25 PM
I hear Dawson is going to petition the committee to go in as a cub.:rolleyes:

voodoochile
01-06-2010, 04:27 PM
Yikes. If Edgar got that then say goodbye to Frank's first ballot enshrinement...

The Hurt will get closer, but the DH is a stigma for Hall voters.

Here's hoping the post career stuff will weigh heavily. There might even be a groundswell to vote him in because of his stance on steroids.

PalehosePlanet
01-06-2010, 04:28 PM
Yikes. If Edgar got that then say goodbye to Frank's first ballot enshrinement...

The Hurt will get closer, but the DH is a stigma for Hall voters.

Not necessarily, Frank's numbers are better across the board, save BA. He also won 2 MVP's to Edgar's 0, and he reached the 500 HR and 1500 RBI milestones, while Edgar didn't come close.

SI1020
01-06-2010, 04:34 PM
I have nothing against Andre Dawson, but if Dick Allen is not in the HOF how can Dawson possibly be?

A lifetime .323 OBP? Barely over an .800 career OPS and only one year where he finished above .900, and a OPS+ of 119?

Dick Allen's career OBP is .378, OPS is .912 with 8 years of over .900 and 3 of over 1.000, and an OPS+ of 156.

Not to mention that Allen played in a pitcher's era. Does not make sense. I agree with you about both players. IMO baseball has more undeserving HOF menbers than the other three major sports, and at least an equal number that do deserve enshrinement have been shut out. I've lost total respect for the selection process.

soxinem1
01-06-2010, 04:51 PM
Not necessarily, Frank's numbers are better across the board, save BA. He also won 2 MVP's to Edgar's 0, and he reached the 500 HR and 1500 RBI milestones, while Edgar didn't come close.

Don't forget Frank did play a lot of 1B. If Paul Molitor gets in, so does he.

My question is: who the hell voted for Dave Segui??

Now we know his supplier is a sportswriter.

Didn't Eric Karros own that batting cage on 111th off of Western? Baseball Alley? If he did, he'd get my vote!

That was Eric Pappas who owned the cages.

Nothing against Hawk, but after Rice was voted in, and now him, the HOF is now called The Hall Of All-Stars by me.

gobears1987
01-06-2010, 04:54 PM
2 Players:

Player A: .289 avg, 2866 hits, 384 HRs, 1628 RBIs...

Player B: .279 avg, 2744 hits, 438 HRs, 1591 RBIs...


Player A is Harold Baines. He is not in Cooperstown. Player B is Andre Dawson. That Northside schmuck just got elected to Cooperstown. Stats tell me Player A deserves Cooperstown more than Player B. BBWAA, you screwed up again.

sox1970
01-06-2010, 05:02 PM
2 Players:

Player A: .289 avg, 2866 hits, 384 HRs, 1628 RBIs...

Player B: .279 avg, 2744 hits, 438 HRs, 1591 RBIs...


Player A is Harold Baines. He is not in Cooperstown. Player B is Andre Dawson. That Northside schmuck just got elected to Cooperstown. Stats tell me Player A deserves Cooperstown more than Player B. BBWAA, you screwed up again.

But Dawson actually won an MVP. He also came in 2nd twice. The 8 gold gloves and 8 all star appearances didn't hurt him either. And he could steal 30 bags a year early in his career. Baines doesn't really come close to Dawson in Hall credentials.

soxinem1
01-06-2010, 05:03 PM
2 Players:

Player A: .289 avg, 2866 hits, 384 HRs, 1628 RBIs...

Player B: .279 avg, 2744 hits, 438 HRs, 1591 RBIs...


Player A is Harold Baines. He is not in Cooperstown. Player B is Andre Dawson. That Northside schmuck just got elected to Cooperstown. Stats tell me Player A deserves Cooperstown more than Player B. BBWAA, you screwed up again.

I agree, but Baines did have 1K more AB's than Dawson, the equivalent of two seasons.

The more logical comparison that should favor Harold is Jim 'No Arm, No Defense, I Hate The Press' Rice. If Hawk gets in because of Rice, okay, but Harold should too then.

I had felt for years that Baines was just a tad below HOF status just because of the DH issue, and the fact that he always seemed to fall just short of a great season.

But since Rice was let in, Baines should be given the HOF plaque as well, just like Bill Veeck predicted he would.

Daver
01-06-2010, 05:05 PM
The baseball hall of fame is a joke, and has been for many years now.

WhiteSox5187
01-06-2010, 05:09 PM
I agree, but Baines did have 1K more AB's than Dawson, the equivalent of two seasons.

The more logical comparison that should favor Harold is Jim 'No Arm, No Defense, I Hate The Press' Rice. If Hawk gets in because of Rice, okay, but Harold should too then.

I had felt for years that Baines was just a tad below HOF status just because of the DH issue, and the fact that he always seemed to fall just short of a great season.

But since Rice was let in, Baines should be given the HOF plaque as well, just like Bill Veeck predicted he would.

Yea, I think the comparison between Baines and Rice is more apt than between Baines and Dawson even though Baseballreference lists them as having similiar stats. Had Baines played in New York or Boston or somewhere more glamorous than the south side, he would be getting more consideration, I'm sure.

TDog
01-06-2010, 05:29 PM
2 Players:

Player A: .289 avg, 2866 hits, 384 HRs, 1628 RBIs...

Player B: .279 avg, 2744 hits, 438 HRs, 1591 RBIs...


Player A is Harold Baines. He is not in Cooperstown. Player B is Andre Dawson. That Northside schmuck just got elected to Cooperstown. Stats tell me Player A deserves Cooperstown more than Player B. BBWAA, you screwed up again.

Jerry Reinsdorf insists, and I tend to agree with him, that Baines would be a shoe-in for the Hall of Fame if the White Sox had never traded him to the Rangers. After Baines left the Sox, he spent most of his career as a platoon player, despite the fact that he had hit very well against a few very good southpaws. Had Baines stayed with the Sox, he would have had well over 3,000 hits. As it was, Baines finished less than a season short of the milestone.

How that would have affected White Sox history raises other questions. The White Sox signed Frank Thomas about a month before they traded Baines. But if Baines stays on the White Sox, and he can't play defense because his knees won't allow it, Thomas remains at first base. The White Sox might not trade for Konerko. Maybe the White Sox win the World Series in 1993, though, and Baines gets his World Series ring as a White Sox player instead of a White Sox coach, with help from Konerko.

I believe Baines belongs in the Hall of Fame. He could have to wait to come before the Veterans Committee to get serious consideration. He was very good at something a lot of hitters with better stats don't do very well at all. He could drive in runs, especially big runs. For example, the game-ending sacrifice fly that clinched the division in 1983 lowered his on-base percentage, but it got the job done.

There remains a prejudice against designated hitters as one-dimensional players -- although Baines was an excellent right fielder with a great arm when he was able to play defense. Part of the prejudice in the Hall of Fame voting stems from the fact that many writers who vote for the Hall of Fame have never covered the American League. Certainly it will hurt Frank Thomas. I doubt it will hurt him enough to keep him out of the Hall of Fame, but I don't think it's automatic that he will get in, especially in the first couple of years he is on the ballot.

Oblong
01-06-2010, 06:17 PM
Yikes. If Edgar got that then say goodbye to Frank's first ballot enshrinement...

The Hurt will get closer, but the DH is a stigma for Hall voters.

I don't think it says much about Frank. Edgar had two things going against him, the DH and his relatively short career due to his late start. And didn't Frank not become a DH full time until later in his career?

I don't have a big issue with Dawson getting in but he was probably 4th or 5th on my list. Blyleven, Larkin, Alomar, Trammell.... not sure how I feel on Edgar if I were really a voter.

ernie14
01-06-2010, 09:23 PM
Why not? Because he spit on an ump? And now he and the ump, whose name escapes me, are friends and run a charity together. And I think the ump was even endorsing and pushing for Alomar to be inducted. So it appears the two have made up and are friends now and have put the incident behind them. Apparently writers can't do the same.

This notion that some players are first ballot hall of famers and others aren't is antiquated and ridiculous. If you're a HOF player, why does it matter when you're inducted? Alomar is one of the top 5-6 2B of all time. He should have been inducted this year.



I believe the umpire was John Hirschbeck.

Absolutely, Robby should have been voted in. I don't really have a problem with Dawson but I don't think he was great I just think he was very good.

Better luck next year, Robby. The writers are idiots sometimes

Lip Man 1
01-06-2010, 09:30 PM
There are only a handful of players in MLB history to have won a batting title and hit over 400 home runs. I think it's 15.

The only ones not in the Hall yet are Frank, Bonds and Sheffield.

Thomas won't have to worry about the DH issue because he played first base regularly through the middle of his career AND he has two MVP awards including at least one (if memory serves) unanimously.

Don't worry.

Lip

TheVulture
01-06-2010, 09:31 PM
Player A is Harold Baines. He is not in Cooperstown. Player B is Andre Dawson. That Northside schmuck just got elected to Cooperstown. Stats tell me Player A deserves Cooperstown more than Player B. BBWAA, you screwed up again.
You're leaving out the fact that Dawson was one of the best defensive OFers to play the game and a burner on the basepaths.

Still, I think he's debatable, whereas Alomar should've been a shoo-in. If I cared more, I'd be shocked that he wasn't voted in.

ernie14
01-06-2010, 09:40 PM
Ty Cobb had a bad attitude, too. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be HOFers. What a joke.

Agreed. Robby Alomar belongs in the Hall. He apologized and umpire John Hirschbeck forgave him a long time ago. Yes, that was a rotten thing to do but he apologized.



Ty Cobb was a rotten guy. Ryne Sandberg is a self-righteous arrogant pompous pig but hey that didn't stop him.

It's all about the stats.

Brian26
01-06-2010, 09:55 PM
How that would have affected White Sox history raises other questions. The White Sox signed Frank Thomas about a month before they traded Baines. But if Baines stays on the White Sox, and he can't play defense because his knees won't allow it, Thomas remains at first base. The White Sox might not trade for Konerko. Maybe the White Sox win the World Series in 1993, though, and Baines gets his World Series ring as a White Sox player instead of a White Sox coach, with help from Konerko.

This is an interesting exercise. I was doing this yesterday in my mind with another scenario, thinking about what would have happened if Harrelson didn't trade Bonilla back to the Pirates for Jose DeLeon. My conclusion was that both Frank and Robin would have never played for the Sox.

asindc
01-06-2010, 09:59 PM
Alomar should have been voted in, period. He is by far the best player in this year's class.

I'm surprised Tim Raines is not getting more love, especially since Larkin is getting more votes than him. Just another example of speed and SBs being underrated in baseball.

Brian26
01-06-2010, 10:00 PM
2 Players:

Player A: .289 avg, 2866 hits, 384 HRs, 1628 RBIs...

Player B: .279 avg, 2744 hits, 438 HRs, 1591 RBIs...


Player A is Harold Baines. He is not in Cooperstown. Player B is Andre Dawson. That Northside schmuck just got elected to Cooperstown. Stats tell me Player A deserves Cooperstown more than Player B. BBWAA, you screwed up again.

Harold was consistently very good throughout his career, but he was never truly dominant like Dawson's '87 season or Frank's '93/'94. Also, Dawson's career average suffered a little towards the end with Boston and Florida.

I still think Dawson deserves it, Harold falls just short, Blyleven deserves it (and will get it next year), and Frank's a shoe-in when his time comes.

petekat
01-06-2010, 10:50 PM
Agree with your support for Harold ultimately receiving some consideration by the Veterans committee, but don't follow your logic in tracking an alternative White Sox history. Harold was traded in 1989. You're saying if the Sox kept him, he would have taken the DH slot, blocking Frank and forcing him to play 1b. Frank was a regular 1b throughout the period you're referring to, from his rookie year in 1990 through 97. He didn't become an everyday DH until 1998. And because Frank was already a DH, this factored little into the decision to trade for Paulie, which took place in the offseason of 98-99. So don't really understand how you associate the Harold trade in 89 to a decision to pick up Paulie nearly a decade later. Maybe you're mixing up the Texas trade with the decision to trade him in 1997, during the White flag summer?



How that would have affected White Sox history raises other questions. The White Sox signed Frank Thomas about a month before they traded Baines. But if Baines stays on the White Sox, and he can't play defense because his knees won't allow it, Thomas remains at first base. The White Sox might not trade for Konerko. Maybe the White Sox win the World Series in 1993, though, and Baines gets his World Series ring as a White Sox player instead of a White Sox coach, with help from Konerko.

.

Tragg
01-06-2010, 11:16 PM
I can't believe it's been 5 years since Alomar played for the Sox.
I'd wait 3-5 years to vote in Alomar because he spit on an umpire. That's just completely unacceptable behavior.

I think Dawson gets it based on the recent definition: put in real good players with long careers who perhaps had 1 great year.
Tim Raines was really good - i don't get the disinterest there either.

soxinem1
01-07-2010, 12:13 AM
Jerry Reinsdorf insists, and I tend to agree with him, that Baines would be a shoe-in for the Hall of Fame if the White Sox had never traded him to the Rangers. After Baines left the Sox, he spent most of his career as a platoon player, despite the fact that he had hit very well against a few very good southpaws. Had Baines stayed with the Sox, he would have had well over 3,000 hits. As it was, Baines finished less than a season short of the milestone.

How that would have affected White Sox history raises other questions. The White Sox signed Frank Thomas about a month before they traded Baines. But if Baines stays on the White Sox, and he can't play defense because his knees won't allow it, Thomas remains at first base. The White Sox might not trade for Konerko. Maybe the White Sox win the World Series in 1993, though, and Baines gets his World Series ring as a White Sox player instead of a White Sox coach, with help from Konerko.

I believe Baines belongs in the Hall of Fame. He could have to wait to come before the Veterans Committee to get serious consideration. He was very good at something a lot of hitters with better stats don't do very well at all. He could drive in runs, especially big runs. For example, the game-ending sacrifice fly that clinched the division in 1983 lowered his on-base percentage, but it got the job done.

There remains a prejudice against designated hitters as one-dimensional players -- although Baines was an excellent right fielder with a great arm when he was able to play defense. Part of the prejudice in the Hall of Fame voting stems from the fact that many writers who vote for the Hall of Fame have never covered the American League. Certainly it will hurt Frank Thomas. I doubt it will hurt him enough to keep him out of the Hall of Fame, but I don't think it's automatic that he will get in, especially in the first couple of years he is on the ballot.

I agree with most of your post regarding Baines and 3,000 hits if he'd have played here instead of being traded in 1989, but I'm not sure how it ties into him and Konerko.

While the fate and destiny of a player is often tied on others, remember this: If Mike Cameron doesn't stink up the joint in his second full season, chances are he's not traded for the then-struggling prospect Konerko.

Zisk77
01-07-2010, 12:14 AM
I can't believe it's been 5 years since Alomar played for the Sox.
I'd wait 3-5 years to vote in Alomar because he spit on an umpire. That's just completely unacceptable behavior.

I think Dawson gets it based on the recent definition: put in real good players with long careers who perhaps had 1 great year.
Tim Raines was really good - i don't get the disinterest there either.

I'm not condoning Robbie for spitting, but the rumor was that the ump called him a slur about Robbie's sexuality (he was rumored to be gay) just prior to be spit on. Which would explain why Robbie acted the way he did... not that it was appropriate.

Of course Robbie couldn't explain that to the press because then he he would have to start answering questions about his sexuality.

Nellie_Fox
01-07-2010, 01:26 AM
I'm not condoning Robbie for spitting, but the rumor was that the ump called him a slur about Robbie's sexuality (he was rumored to be gay) just prior to be spit on. Which would explain why Robbie acted the way he did... not that it was appropriate.

Of course Robbie couldn't explain that to the press because then he he would have to start answering questions about his sexuality.Well, you managed to repeat an unconfirmed rumor about what the ump said and a rumor about Alomar's sexuality, all in one post. Well done.

Tragg
01-07-2010, 11:11 AM
Statistics don't lie.

ONe of the following shortstops is in the Hall of Fame (with 91% of the ballots) and the other will be considered in 3 years.

(Career OPS, homers, fielding percentage).

Player A: .666, 28, .978

Player B: .679, 111, .974

Player A is Ozzie Smith.

Player B? Well in 3 years, will Royce Clayton be welcomed to the Hall?

tstrike2000
01-07-2010, 11:36 AM
Statistics don't lie.

ONe of the following shortstops is in the Hall of Fame (with 91% of the ballots) and the other will be considered in 3 years.

(Career OPS, homers, fielding percentage).

Player A: .666, 28, .978

Player B: .679, 111, .974

Player A is Ozzie Smith.

Player B? Well in 3 years, will Royce Clayton be welcomed to the Hall?

He wasn't nicknamed The Choice for nothing.

TheOldRoman
01-07-2010, 02:08 PM
I fully agree, but my impression is it's only getting worse. When I saw that Rickey was left off several ballots last year, I knew Robbie was not going to skate in his first year. For many writers you have to be a complete player to go in on your first ballot. The most interesting case looming is # 35. The DH stigma, the one-dimensional perception, and lack of postseason heroics will hurt him with many writers his first time up, IMHO.

WThe Hall of Fame is a joke. I can't believe that Raines isn't in. Not letting Alomar in onthe first ballot is ridiculous.

After seeing what happened to Alomar, I have no doubt that Frank won't get in for 3 or 4 years. Those who vote will carry the "he din't play a position" vendetta too far. Robbie will get in on the second try, and he is probably the best 2B of all time. I think Frank is going to have to wait a while, and it is complete bull****.

For an explanation of the voting, look no further than the Chicago voters. Slime like Phil Arvia has a vote. Teddy freakin' Greenstein has a vote. Has he ever covered baseball? I thought he does college sports? Mariotti has a vote. I was looking at a website devoted to getting Raines in, and they listed the people who didn't vote for him a recent year. On the list, there were about 10 names from Chicago. Frank doesn't even have the local press to support him. The local press picked on Frank and made him the bad guy. With lots of Chicago votes, and the majority of the local press hating the Sox and Frank specifically, it might be a good while until he gets in.

sox1970
01-07-2010, 02:54 PM
The Hall of Fame is a joke. I can't believe that Raines isn't in. Not letting Alomar in onthe first ballot is ridiculous.

After seeing what happened to Alomar, I have no doubt that Frank won't get in for 3 or 4 years. Those who vote will carry the "he din't play a position" vendetta too far. Robbie will get in on the second try, and he is probably the best 2B of all time. I think Frank is going to have to wait a while, and it is complete bull****.

For an explanation of the voting, look no further than the Chicago voters. Slime like Phil Arvia has a vote. Teddy freakin' Greenstein has a vote. Has he ever covered baseball? I thought he does college sports? Mariotti has a vote. I was looking at a website devoted to getting Raines in, and they listed the people who didn't vote for him a recent year. On the list, there were about 10 names from Chicago. Frank doesn't even have the local press to support him. The local press picked on Frank and made him the bad guy. With lots of Chicago votes, and the majority of the local press hating the Sox and Frank specifically, it might be a good while until he gets in.

There will be some that won't vote for Frank because they don't vote for anyone on the first ballot, but I don't think too many will hold the DH thing over his head. What he did his first seven seasons was historic, and add two MVPs, and another one that should have been in 2000, plus 500 homers, Frank has nothing to worry about. He'll go in on the first ballot and he'll have at least 80% of the vote.

wilburaga
01-07-2010, 03:54 PM
There will be some that won't vote for Frank because they don't vote for anyone on the first ballot, but I don't think too many will hold the DH thing over his head. What he did his first seven seasons was historic, and add two MVPs, and another one that should have been in 2000, plus 500 homers, Frank has nothing to worry about. He'll go in on the first ballot and he'll have at least 80% of the vote.

I'm going to disagree with you on this one. I think there are enough pockets of resistance amongst the writers to deny Frank his first time up.

1) Writers who don't vote anyone in the first time around
2) Writers with an animus towards the White Sox
3) Writers with an animus towards Frank himself
4) Writers with an animus towards the American League/DH
5) Writers who think first round selection is only for 5 tool players. Let's face it, while Frank is at the very pinnacle in two of the five tools, he's way down the list in two of the three others (baserunning and fielding) and at the very bottom in the last (throwing).
6) Writers who believe some postseason distinction is a necessary ingredient for first round selection. Remember, Frank 0-ferred in two of his four postseason series.

One of us is right. We'll know in a few years.

W