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Waysouthsider
01-02-2010, 12:54 PM
Anyone out there recall how many games the Sox lost by one run last season? Seems like it was an extraordinary amount.

So, the question is, now that it looks like the pitching is pretty well settled...where in the world are we going to find the offensive production we needed last season? Especially since we've lost Dye and Thome. Andruw Jones and Alex Rios? :scratch:

I read Merkin's article today and although I don't want to be paranoid, either he's overly optimistic or I'm over anxious!

dickallen15
01-02-2010, 01:04 PM
Anyone out there recall how many games the Sox lost by one run last season? Seems like it was an extraordinary amount.

So, the question is, now that it looks like the pitching is pretty well settled...where in the world are we going to find the offensive production we needed last season? Especially since we've lost Dye and Thome. Andruw Jones and Alex Rios? :scratch:

I read Merkin's article today and although I don't want to be paranoid, either he's overly optimistic or I'm over anxious!

If the White Sox are done adding offense, I think your worry is legit. The season is still 3 months away, I'm almost positive they will be adding another bat, despite what they have suggested.

voodoochile
01-02-2010, 01:04 PM
Well manufacturing a run or two will probably be easier this year, but the Sox should also need less run with the pitching staff they've assembled.

Don't discount guys like Rios having a bounceback year or Teahen having a real solid offensive year playing at UCSF the whole season. Those two guys get in the area of .830 OPS and the runs will come.

Jones is a complete crapshoot. He might be great he might be a total bust. I wouldn't be shocked to see the Sox add a Thome or someone else cheap toward the end of ST, but wouldn't be surprised if KW left it until the trade deadline and then went and got Dunn or someone similar who will be on the block if Jones proves to be through.

russ99
01-02-2010, 01:24 PM
I think the problem here is people are comparing our recent acquisitions, especially the middle of the order bats, to Thome and Dye from a few years ago.

If you compare them to Thome and Dye of last year, it looks to me that the current cast can improve upon that production. The other point is these guys are much more athletic overall, and we won't live or die on the homer so much. We'll see more double RBIs and less stranded baserunners than in years past.

And I doubt Kenny is banking on Andruw Jones making an impact, as he could be decent or could be cut this spring. I'm sure he'll get us another bat fairly cheaply before Spring Training opens.

dickallen15
01-02-2010, 01:37 PM
I think the problem here is people are comparing our recent acquisitions, especially the middle of the order bats, to Thome and Dye from a few years ago.

If you compare them to Thome and Dye of last year, it looks to me that the current cast can improve upon that production. The other point is these guys are much more athletic overall, and we won't live or die on the homer so much. We'll see more double RBIs and less stranded baserunners than in years past.

And I doubt Kenny is banking on Andruw Jones making an impact, as he could be decent or could be cut this spring. I'm sure he'll get us another bat fairly cheaply before Spring Training opens.


Just from last year, Dye should have been an All Star the first half. Thome put up good numbers, in fact, Thome's OPS in his seasons with the White
Sox is the same as Matt Holliday's career OPS. Is Pierre going to match Pods 2009 production at the top of the order? I know Rios should improve and if he can get back to at least his 2007 numbers it would help. He has been trending downward. Quentin needs to stay healthy. Jones is a shot in the dark. If the Cubs signed him to the same contract and Cubs message boards had quotes that he was primed for a comeback, we would all laugh. Hendry would be an idiot and the Cubs fans wouldn't know what they are talking about. Its worth the 500k, but expectations should be very low. Teahan, maybe he does break out, but chances are he is what he is. The Sox need another bat pretty badly IMO. I'm hoping for Damon or Vlad.

Redus Redux
01-02-2010, 02:15 PM
Last July, Andruw had 8 HR in 67 at bats

dickallen15
01-02-2010, 02:23 PM
Last July, Andruw had 8 HR in 67 at bats
And then finished the year 13-76 a .171 AVG with 0 homers and 24 strikeouts, looking exactly like he looked in LA. Signing him wasn't a big gamble, but expecting anything more than a part timer who may hit a few homers and hover around .200 is a reach. Obviously there's a chance he may find something, but no one should count on it.

nsolo
01-02-2010, 09:13 PM
Just from last year, Dye should have been an All Star the first half. Thome put up good numbers, in fact, Thome's OPS in his seasons with the White
Sox is the same as Matt Holliday's career OPS. Is Pierre going to match Pods 2009 production at the top of the order? I know Rios should improve and if he can get back to at least his 2007 numbers it would help. He has been trending downward. Quentin needs to stay healthy. Jones is a shot in the dark. If the Cubs signed him to the same contract and Cubs message boards had quotes that he was primed for a comeback, we would all laugh. Hendry would be an idiot and the Cubs fans wouldn't know what they are talking about. Its worth the 500k, but expectations should be very low. Teahan, maybe he does break out, but chances are he is what he is. The Sox need another bat pretty badly IMO. I'm hoping for Damon or Vlad.
yes, they need a productive bat in the lineup, but with Walker as the hitting coach the ole' sphincter tends to spasm.

soxinem1
01-02-2010, 10:00 PM
And then finished the year 13-76 a .171 AVG with 0 homers and 24 strikeouts, looking exactly like he looked in LA. Signing him wasn't a big gamble, but expecting anything more than a part timer who may hit a few homers and hover around .200 is a reach. Obviously there's a chance he may find something, but no one should count on it.

He also finished the year with a torn hamstring. Jones was putting up solid numbers until that time. I know pulling one is hell, tearing one must be pure hell.

While I agree with you about not putting any hopes on Jones making a major impact, I still would not be suprised if he is the next $500,000 signing version of Esteban Loaiza.

WhiteSox5187
01-02-2010, 10:03 PM
He also finished the year with a torn hamstring. Jones was putting up solid numbers until that time. I know pulling one is hell, tearing one must be pure hell.

While I agree with you about not putting any hopes on Jones making a major impact, I still would not be suprised if he is the next $500,000 signing version of Esteban Loaiza.

I'd be stunned if Andruw Jones winds up winning twenty games and coming second in Cy Young voting.

soxinem1
01-02-2010, 10:07 PM
I'd be stunned if Andruw Jones winds up winning twenty games and coming second in Cy Young voting.

I meant him producing for a ridiculously low cost. I think you knew that too.

Jurr
01-02-2010, 10:58 PM
If the Sox have a more varied offensive attack, the opposing pitchers won't be able to concentrate on the mitt and have the mindset of "if I keep them in the park, they won't score".

I'm excited about the prospect of moving away from station to station baseball. Every player on this roster will see a spike in HR production (those that weren't here last year). The park plays to that.

However, going up the middle, going opposite field, manufacturing runs, and getting sac bunts down is a team mindset. It's contagious, much the same way hitting homers is. Good fundamental offensive baseball will beat a slugging ballclub any day of the week. Ask the Twins. They've pretty much owned us every year but '05 and '08.

Domeshot17
01-02-2010, 11:43 PM
Personally think we are going to be disappointed. The Cell plays poorly to double hitters. I am a fan of having them in the lineup, but you can't ignore power completely, and we are. Move the fences back then, so the park plays to the team. But a middle of the order of Beckham Quentin Konerko or AJ or Rios or whoever ozzie runs out there is one of the weakest in the AL. Its like, okay we needed some doubles and some speed, so we ignore power completely to get it. The truth is it won't score many more runs than last year. Especially with no lefty bat in the middle.

We are expecting all of the following to happen to just be okay offensively:

Rios bounces back
Beckham continues to grow
Quentin stays healthy (if he goes down, right now, the season might as well be over)
Teahen goes from a very average hitter and average fielder to above at both
Konerko does not decline
Pierre finds a way to get on base higher than 33% of the time.
Andruw Jones wakes up thinking its 2002

So many what if scenerios. Just wish we would add someone consistent and solid versus all these crap shoots.

And in terms of Merkin's piece, you know, its fun to read, but he gets paid to write good things about the White Sox.

Daver
01-02-2010, 11:57 PM
The problem is that this is not a good defensive team, good pitching + mediocre hitting + below average defense = a team that finishes near .500.

LoveYourSuit
01-03-2010, 12:04 AM
The problem is that this is not a good defensive team, good pitching + mediocre hitting + below average defense = a team that finishes near .500.


Daver, what's your stand on baseball and defense? You don't talk about it enough.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-03-2010, 01:01 AM
If the following were the offensive stats leaders for the ChiSox in 2010, would you be happy?

Avg: .290, .283, .270
OBP: .375, .351, .342
OPS: .909, .846, .780
HR: 40, 31, 23
RBI: 100, 87, 86
R: 98, 80, 77


(If anyone is a ridiculous stathead and somehow realized that these are the offensive leaders from the 2005 squad, mad props)


My point, before anyone asks, is that if our pitching staff is as solid as it appears to be on paper right now, we won't need much offense.

Craig Grebeck
01-03-2010, 01:08 AM
If the following were the offensive stats leaders for the ChiSox in 2010, would you be happy?

Avg: .290, .283, .270
OBP: .375, .351, .342
OPS: .909, .846, .780
HR: 40, 31, 23
RBI: 100, 87, 86
R: 98, 80, 77


(If anyone is a ridiculous stathead and somehow realized that these are the offensive leaders from the 2005 squad, mad props)


My point, before anyone asks, is that if our pitching staff is as solid as it appears to be on paper right now, we won't need much offense.
And that is a losing strategy. Hoping for good pitching (with poor defense behind them, mind you) so we can put out a below-average offense is pathetic.

Thatguyoverthere
01-03-2010, 01:13 AM
I refuse to believe that KW would settle with the lineup we have now. He should know better than anybody that the Sox need a middle of the order hitter. If the Sox go into the season with a Kotsay/Jones duo as their DH I will be :angry:. There's absolutely no way we would compete for a championship with our current lineup. When I think of next year, I have always imagined at the very least another solid hitter in our lineup, whether that simply means a Vlad or Delgado or even Thome again. However, if we go into the season with this lineup and end up getting Dunn at the trade deadline, I may be OK with that scenario, but of course there's no guarantee. But still, KW can't be satisified with this lineup, can he? He even said himself that Kotsay and Jones were bench players, not starters. He has to be working on getting another hitter.

Domeshot17
01-03-2010, 01:13 AM
And that is a losing strategy. Hoping for good pitching (with poor defense behind them, mind you) so we can put out a below-average offense is pathetic.

Agreed. Also, would the 2005 Sox take the 2010 Red Sox or Yankees? Seriously? In the AL to win it all you are going to need a great rotation (The Sox don't even have one of the top 2, but I would put them 3), a great bull pen (maybe we have it, maybe we don't), very good defense (not us) and a very good offense (definitely not us). I am not saying the Sox can not compete, or we should give the title to the Yanks or Boston today. However, this team is built to win 87-88 games and hope they get lucky and hot in October. That strategy rarely works.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-03-2010, 01:42 AM
And that is a losing strategy. Hoping for good pitching (with poor defense behind them, mind you) so we can put out a below-average offense is pathetic.

I'd love for the Sox to land Adrian Gonzalez, Matt Holliday, and Alex Rodriguez, don't get me wrong.

But we don't have any of those guys and I'm looking at the roster as it is currently constructed which is stronger, on paper, at the pitching front than it is offensively.

However, that's not to say that the offense is hopeless. Looking at the potential starting lineup (completely unofficial, obviously):
1) Pierre LF
2) Beckham 2B
3) Quentin RF
4) Konerko 1B
5) Pierzynski C
6) Rios CF
7) Kotsay/Jones DH
8) Ramirez SS
9) Teahen 3B

If Quentin, Rios, and Ramirez can improve off of their horrible seasons last year, then that lineup won't be bad at all. Let's take a look at that lineup with Baseball-Reference.com's 162 Game Avg. for each player:
.................(BA, OBP, HR, RBI)
1) Pierre LF (.301, .348, 1, 44, 52 SB)
2) Beckham 2B (.270, .347, 22, 99)
3) Quentin RF (.254, .349, 31, 97)
4) Konerko 1B (.277, .352, 31, 100)
5) Pierzynski C (.286, .326, 15, 72)
6) Rios CF (.281, .330, 16, 77, 22 SB)
7) Kotsay/Jones DH (.281, .336, 12, 67 | .257, .338, 33, 99)
8) Ramirez SS (.283, .326, 21, 83)
9) Teahen 3B (.269, .331, 14, 70)

It should be noted that Beckham only has 1 year of MLB experience, Jones' best days are behind him, and a few other issues that would question how serious those averages should be taken. All that aside, I'm counting over 170 HRs from the potential starting lineup (averaged out Kotsay/Jones HR average to 22.5), which is pretty solid.

Craig Grebeck
01-03-2010, 01:44 AM
I'd love for the Sox to land Adrian Gonzalez, Matt Holliday, and Alex Rodriguez, don't get me wrong.

But we don't have any of those guys and I'm looking at the roster as it is currently constructed which is stronger, on paper, at the pitching front than it is offensively.

However, that's not to say that the offense is hopeless. Looking at the potential starting lineup (completely unofficial, obviously):
1) Pierre LF
2) Beckham 2B
3) Quentin RF
4) Konerko 1B
5) Pierzynski C
6) Rios CF
7) Kotsay/Jones DH
8) Ramirez SS
9) Teahen 3B

If Quentin, Rios, and Ramirez can improve off of their horrible seasons last year, then that lineup won't be bad at all. Let's take a look at that lineup with Baseball-Reference.com's 162 Game Avg. for each player:
.................(BA, OBP, HR, RBI)
1) Pierre LF (.301, .348, 1, 44, 52 SB)
2) Beckham 2B (.270, .347, 22, 99)
3) Quentin RF (.254, .349, 31, 97)
4) Konerko 1B (.277, .352, 31, 100)
5) Pierzynski C (.286, .326, 15, 72)
6) Rios CF (.281, .330, 16, 77, 22 SB)
7) Kotsay/Jones DH (.281, .336, 12, 67 | .257, .338, 33, 99)
8) Ramirez SS (.283, .326, 21, 83)
9) Teahen 3B (.269, .331, 14, 70)

It should be noted that Beckham only has 1 year of MLB experience, Jones' best days are behind him, and a few other issues that would question how serious those averages should be taken. All that aside, I'm counting over 170 HRs from the potential starting lineup (averaged out Kotsay and Jones' HR average to 22.5), which is pretty solid.
I'm not asking for Matt Holliday. Or Alex Rodriguez. Or Adrian Gonzalez. Give me someone competent. Utilize the designated hitter. Et cetera.

WhiteSoxFan84
01-03-2010, 06:43 AM
I'm not asking for Matt Holliday. Or Alex Rodriguez. Or Adrian Gonzalez. Give me someone competent. Utilize the designated hitter. Et cetera.

And we continue to agree. I personally thought Hideki Matsui would've been the perfect available option at DH for us. Too late on that. I started a thread not too long ago centered on Adam Dunn being THE missing piece on that offense and I'll continue saying that. As long as he's a guy that just adds 35-45 HRs to our lineup and we don't look to him each time we need a clutch hit, he'd be ideal. That's not to say he can't deliver a clutch hit, but if we expected that then we'd quickly be disappointed after strikeout #50 of 200 of the year.

But, again, we have to go by what we have right now. And truthfully, Kotsay/Jones isn't the worst DH situation in the AL. Just look at the Indians. What are they paying that steroid abusing failure?

Let's give it a chance (if we have to) before we declare it a failure. And I have a feeling that if the platoon at DH concept falls flat on its face, KW won't wait long to make a move.

Frater Perdurabo
01-03-2010, 08:22 AM
Rather than sign a "pure DH," why not shoot higher and make a trade for a legit RF who can play good defense, hit for a .280+ average and and 30 homers, and then move Quentin to DH?

Craig Grebeck
01-03-2010, 09:09 AM
Rather than sign a "pure DH," why not shoot higher and make a trade for a legit RF who can play good defense, hit for a .280+ average and and 30 homers, and then move Quentin to DH?
Well, those guys are hard to find for one. Secondly, lots of research shows that moving a young player to DH doesn't always pay off -- and quite often results in regression. Honestly, our best defensive alignment might put Pierre in CF and Rios in RF, as it would keep Quentin in LF. His defense is a liability at this point.

Just give me Jim Thome at $2m a year. Not asking for much -- just want a masher with a damn good OBP.

johnny_mostil
01-03-2010, 10:37 AM
And that is a losing strategy. Hoping for good pitching (with poor defense behind them, mind you) so we can put out a below-average offense is pathetic.

The problem with the 'poor defense' conventional wisdom is that the 2009 White Sox finished second-best in the league in runs allowed in a strong hitting-friendly park with a supposedly suspect bullpen and Jose Contreras and Bartolo Colon as the primary fourth and fifth starters. The evidence suggests something, somewhere, is dramatically wrong with the conventional wisdom. Even taking into account a few extra games with Cleveland and Kansas City, somehow the 2009 team was preventing a whole lot of runs from scoring.

SCCWS
01-03-2010, 11:21 AM
In the AL to win it all you are going to need a great rotation (The Sox don't even have one of the top 2, but I would put them 3), a great bull pen (maybe we have it, maybe we don't), very good defense (not us) and a very good offense (definitely not us). I am not saying the Sox can not compete, or we should give the title to the Yanks or Boston today. However, this team is built to win 87-88 games and hope they get lucky and hot in October. That strategy rarely works.

Then how did Yankees win in 2009 w following rankings???? Hitting ( 1), Pitching ( 4th) Defense (10th). They had good not great starting pitching, poor defense and how did they do?

balke
01-03-2010, 11:41 AM
I'm pretty comfortable with the Sox starting the season like this. I wouldn't want to see them sign an old man for DH who is slow. They should be able to manufacture better this year and to play better defense.

I'd like to see what the offense has first. Then if need be - get that bat for RF or DH or 3B at the deadline. Maybe even 1B?

russ99
01-03-2010, 12:45 PM
What poor defense? Beckham's at second where he could be a gold glover; Paulie who's above average at first; Ramirez who has the range but needs a bit more maturity, which will come especially with Vizquel to teach him; and Teahen who's around average at 3B but is better than anyone we've had since Crede wasn't hurt. And if anyone has a bad game or two, we have Omar who can play any IF position.

Outfield D is excellent. Pierre has a weak arm but excellent range; Rios is a top 10 CF; and Quentin or Andruw will make us forget about Dye in RF, and both have the arm. And Kotsay is in reserve who can play any OF position.

We have a top 5 starting staff and if everyone remains and things fall into place a top 10 relief staff.

Pitching and defense wins championships. Kenny tried the sluggers-over-everything approach and it didn't work.

I'm optimistic that we can get in the playoffs this year, even without the bat that will be coming in. And when you get in the playoffs with our kind of pitching staff anything can happen.

DSpivack
01-03-2010, 01:20 PM
The problem with the 'poor defense' conventional wisdom is that the 2009 White Sox finished second-best in the league in runs allowed in a strong hitting-friendly park with a supposedly suspect bullpen and Jose Contreras and Bartolo Colon as the primary fourth and fifth starters. The evidence suggests something, somewhere, is dramatically wrong with the conventional wisdom. Even taking into account a few extra games with Cleveland and Kansas City, somehow the 2009 team was preventing a whole lot of runs from scoring.

Pitching was our strong suit in 2009. I think we had one of the biggest differences between runs allowed and earned runs allowed. That says a lot to me.

thedudeabides
01-03-2010, 01:44 PM
Well, those guys are hard to find for one. Secondly, lots of research shows that moving a young player to DH doesn't always pay off -- and quite often results in regression. Honestly, our best defensive alignment might put Pierre in CF and Rios in RF, as it would keep Quentin in LF. His defense is a liability at this point.

Just give me Jim Thome at $2m a year. Not asking for much -- just want a masher with a damn good OBP.

I strongly disagree. That is just weakening the defense. Pierre is a below average centerfielder, but good in left field. A good outfield defense starts with a good centerfielder. This alignment puts them below average in center and left and strong in right, instead of above average in center and left, and below average in right.

A good defense starts with being strong up the middle. For the first time in a long time the Sox have that possibility with Rios is CF. With the current roster, there is zero reason for Pierre to be in CF.

dickallen15
01-03-2010, 01:53 PM
What poor defense? Beckham's at second where he could be a gold glover; Paulie who's above average at first; Ramirez who has the range but needs a bit more maturity, which will come especially with Vizquel to teach him; and Teahen who's around average at 3B but is better than anyone we've had since Crede wasn't hurt. And if anyone has a bad game or two, we have Omar who can play any IF position.

Outfield D is excellent. Pierre has a weak arm but excellent range; Rios is a top 10 CF; and Quentin or Andruw will make us forget about Dye in RF, and both have the arm. And Kotsay is in reserve who can play any OF position.

We have a top 5 starting staff and if everyone remains and things fall into place a top 10 relief staff.

Pitching and defense wins championships. Kenny tried the sluggers-over-everything approach and it didn't work.

I'm optimistic that we can get in the playoffs this year, even without the bat that will be coming in. And when you get in the playoffs with our kind of pitching staff anything can happen.

I don't know how you can call Beckham a GG at a position he hasn't played. As for Teahan, even the sabermetric guys have him ranked low. He was in the bottom 5 of defensive 3rd basemen in MLB last year. As for being the best defensive 3B since Crede, well, that's been one season and the one guy who played that position you are calling a GG candidate at 2B. Pitching and defense does win, but you actually have to improve the defense, not just will it to be better.

DirtySox
01-03-2010, 02:03 PM
I'm pretty comfortable with the Sox starting the season like this. I wouldn't want to see them sign an old man for DH who is slow. They should be able to manufacture better this year and to play better defense.

What is with this anti-slugger sentiment lately? This is the AL. The DH is for that one big bat who might not be able to run or field especially well. You take those deficiencies in exchange for the ability to pound the living **** out of ball. The offense is woeful right now despite it being more "athletic." The idea of rotating in bench players for that spot is idiotic. In a division that has come down to play-in games the last 2 years Kenny can't afford to sit on his hands with this one.

oeo
01-03-2010, 02:30 PM
I don't know how you can call Beckham a GG at a position he hasn't played. As for Teahan, even the sabermetric guys have him ranked low. He was in the bottom 5 of defensive 3rd basemen in MLB last year. As for being the best defensive 3B since Crede, well, that's been one season and the one guy who played that position you are calling a GG candidate at 2B. Pitching and defense does win, but you actually have to improve the defense, not just will it to be better.

'Even the sabermetric guys have him ranked low'? What the hell does that mean? :scratch:

Teahen was supposed to be the starting 2B last year. He spent Spring Training learning a new position, just like he's done the majority of his career. Then he was moved to 3B after Gordon's injury. Not being yanked around and knowing what position he's going to play the next day will probably help him alone, both offensively and defensively.

The defense is the best it's been in at least a few years. Our outfield will cover more ground than it has since probably 2005, even with Quentin in RF and Alexei showed great strides at the end of last year. I don't see who can disagree with that. The defense will be fine, I'm just worried whether we can win all these close games with our suspect bullpen. Or even put up the 2-4 runs it's going to take to actually hand a lead to the bullpen.

Domeshot17
01-03-2010, 02:51 PM
'Even the sabermetric guys have him ranked low'? What the hell does that mean? :scratch:

Teahen was supposed to be the starting 2B last year. He spent Spring Training learning a new position, just like he's done the majority of his career. Then he was moved to 3B after Gordon's injury. Not being yanked around and knowing what position he's going to play the next day will probably help him alone, both offensively and defensively.

The defense is the best it's been in at least a few years. Our outfield will cover more ground than it has since probably 2005, even with Quentin in RF and Alexei showed great strides at the end of last year. I don't see who can disagree with that. The defense will be fine, I'm just worried whether we can win all these close games with our suspect bullpen. Or even put up the 2-4 runs it's going to take to actually hand a lead to the bullpen.

I think our defense has been so bad lately that people mistake average for good. Teahen, even when he was a full time 3b, was average at best at 3rd. He won't hurt you, he isn't very good, he is average. Alexei has good range at SS, and also seems to fall asleep a ton, no one knows where he will be. Gordon is a huge wild card, he could be awesome at 2b, he could be average, we just have no idea. Konerko has always been solid. Rios is a fine CF. He won't win a gold glove but he should be in the middle of that 2nd tier of CF, better than every CF defensively not named Anderson in a long time. Pierre is Pods with better vision to the ball, so another guy slightly above average, although his arm is about as strong as my dogs. Quentin is a below average LF moving to RF, not ideal, but probably equal to a hobbling around JD.

Its a bunch of guys who are steady. Ramirez is the real wild card. He has the chance to be a plus defender if he can focus and be more mentally tough. Rios could be a plus defender, as could Beckham. that is our best quality is we could be pretty solid up the middle. Corner OF and Corner IF is about as average as it gets.

Domeshot17
01-03-2010, 02:56 PM
What is with this anti-slugger sentiment lately? This is the AL. The DH is for that one big bat who might not be able to run or field especially well. You take those deficiencies in exchange for the ability to pound the living **** out of ball. The offense is woeful right now despite it being more "athletic." The idea of rotating in bench players for that spot is idiotic. In a division that has come down to play-in games the last 2 years Kenny can't afford to sit on his hands with this one.


It is just ignorance. Earlier offseason and end of last year, there was all this clamoring to be like the Twins..... Why did the twins win this year? 4 players hit 28 or more home runs, those same 4 all drove in 94 or more runs. 2 of them did it hitting .300 or more. all 4 slugged over 500 and all 4 had atleast 30 doubles. Their lead off man had a .390 OBP.

So many people seem to think its just about speed or being more athletic. Its about having a guy at the top of the order who is on so the guys in the middle can drive him in. Do we even have 1 guy on our team we think can go .300-.375-.500 with 30 doubles 28 homers and 95 rbis Let alone 4?

oeo
01-03-2010, 03:26 PM
I think our defense has been so bad lately that people mistake average for good. Teahen, even when he was a full time 3b, was average at best at 3rd. He won't hurt you, he isn't very good, he is average. Alexei has good range at SS, and also seems to fall asleep a ton, no one knows where he will be. Gordon is a huge wild card, he could be awesome at 2b, he could be average, we just have no idea. Konerko has always been solid. Rios is a fine CF. He won't win a gold glove but he should be in the middle of that 2nd tier of CF, better than every CF defensively not named Anderson in a long time. Pierre is Pods with better vision to the ball, so another guy slightly above average, although his arm is about as strong as my dogs. Quentin is a below average LF moving to RF, not ideal, but probably equal to a hobbling around JD.

Its a bunch of guys who are steady. Ramirez is the real wild card. He has the chance to be a plus defender if he can focus and be more mentally tough. Rios could be a plus defender, as could Beckham. that is our best quality is we could be pretty solid up the middle. Corner OF and Corner IF is about as average as it gets.

Average is fine, as long as we can score some runs. Make the plays that need to be made. That was the major problem last year with our defense, we weren't making the plays that needed to be made. I don't agree that you can sacrifice offense to have a superb defense, you need to score in the AL. I don't care how good your pitching and defense is, if you can't consistently score, you're not going to win the American League.

dickallen15
01-03-2010, 04:33 PM
'Even the sabermetric guys have him ranked low'? What the hell does that mean? :scratch:

Teahen was supposed to be the starting 2B last year. He spent Spring Training learning a new position, just like he's done the majority of his career. Then he was moved to 3B after Gordon's injury. Not being yanked around and knowing what position he's going to play the next day will probably help him alone, both offensively and defensively.

The defense is the best it's been in at least a few years. Our outfield will cover more ground than it has since probably 2005, even with Quentin in RF and Alexei showed great strides at the end of last year. I don't see who can disagree with that. The defense will be fine, I'm just worried whether we can win all these close games with our suspect bullpen. Or even put up the 2-4 runs it's going to take to actually hand a lead to the bullpen.

Last year Pierre had his best defensive year in a long time, chances are he will regress. How come Quentin won't struggle in RF since you use excuses for Teahan? Teahan isn't a very good 3B defensively, that's just a fact. Beckham has never played 2b. He might be great, he might not. I think Alexei has potential to be very good, but the jury is still out. The defense was poor last year, and if its been upgraded, it hasn't been a huge upgrade.

Domeshot17
01-03-2010, 04:42 PM
Average is fine, as long as we can score some runs. Make the plays that need to be made. That was the major problem last year with our defense, we weren't making the plays that needed to be made. I don't agree that you can sacrifice offense to have a superb defense, you need to score in the AL. I don't care how good your pitching and defense is, if you can't consistently score, you're not going to win the American League.

I feel the same way. That is why I think its vital to get a real slugging DH. I wonder if Kenny is posturing here with the idea that:

The Central is really weak this year outside the Twins. It, by all accounts, should be a 2 team race. If we can hang around until July THEN add an Adam Dunn, he costs us 5-6 mil, not 10.

LoveYourSuit
01-03-2010, 04:52 PM
What is with this anti-slugger sentiment lately? This is the AL. The DH is for that one big bat who might not be able to run or field especially well. You take those deficiencies in exchange for the ability to pound the living **** out of ball. The offense is woeful right now despite it being more "athletic." The idea of rotating in bench players for that spot is idiotic. In a division that has come down to play-in games the last 2 years Kenny can't afford to sit on his hands with this one.


Yeah, you can't play against your homefiled strength if you plan to win. If the Sox played in Comerica, yes you can live with a pedestrian power hitting team. But if you play like this at the Cell, the opposition will gain an upper hand on you I don't care how great we think our pitching staff will be.

I believe our offense to be good needs to hit 200 HRs every season.

Frater Perdurabo
01-03-2010, 05:04 PM
The Central is really weak this year outside the Twins. It, by all accounts, should be a 2 team race. If we can hang around until July THEN add an Adam Dunn, he costs us 5-6 mil, not 10.

I think this is the plan.

oeo
01-03-2010, 05:09 PM
Last year Pierre had his best defensive year in a long time, chances are he will regress. How come Quentin won't struggle in RF since you use excuses for Teahan? Teahan isn't a very good 3B defensively, that's just a fact. Beckham has never played 2b. He might be great, he might not. I think Alexei has potential to be very good, but the jury is still out. The defense was poor last year, and if its been upgraded, it hasn't been a huge upgrade.

Pierre has also played most of his career in CF. The defense has improved because Pierre > Quentin in LF, a full year of Rios in CF, Teahen being at least as good as Beckham at 3B, Alexei's improvement at SS, and Beckham's athletic ability at 2B.

Quentin hasn't shown to be a very good defender, plus his arm strength is not consistent and he's not very accurate with it. Be prepared to see singles stretched to doubles and a lot of testing of Quentin's arm going first to third.

I feel the same way. That is why I think its vital to get a real slugging DH. I wonder if Kenny is posturing here with the idea that:

The Central is really weak this year outside the Twins. It, by all accounts, should be a 2 team race. If we can hang around until July THEN add an Adam Dunn, he costs us 5-6 mil, not 10.

We need to see how the Twins new park plays first. Their pitching was crap last year, and as you said, they won because of their offense. They've become quite the slugging offense. What if the ball doesn't fly well out of that place? OTOH, it could be a launching pad, which means they'll look a lot like a typical White Sox team.

Daver
01-03-2010, 05:14 PM
Pierre has also played most of his career in CF. The defense has improved because Pierre > Quentin in LF, a full year of Rios in CF, Teahen being at least as good as Beckham at 3B, Alexei's improvement at SS, and Beckham's athletic ability at 2B.

Quentin hasn't shown to be a very good defender, plus his arm strength is not consistent and he's not very accurate with it. Be prepared to see singles stretched to doubles and a lot of testing of Quentin's arm going first to third.

Teahen is not as good as Beckham was, based solely on what I have seen of Gordon's play he is not an upgrade over Getz, Alexei is a big if, and this team has not improved defensively at all over last year.

oeo
01-03-2010, 05:16 PM
Teahen is not as good as Beckham was, based solely on what I have seen of Gordon's play he is not an upgrade over Getz, Alexei is a big if, and this team has not improved defensively at all over last year.

I'm willing to take the bet that Gordon will be a better second baseman than Getz. Probably not from Day 1, but by the end of the year, yes. Not only does he have the athletic ability, he's a smarter baseball player.

We'll see when the games are played, but I'd also put money on this being a better defensive team.

dickallen15
01-03-2010, 05:18 PM
Pierre has also played most of his career in CF. The defense has improved because Pierre > Quentin in LF, a full year of Rios in CF, Teahen being at least as good as Beckham at 3B, Alexei's improvement at SS, and Beckham's athletic ability at 2B.

Quentin hasn't shown to be a very good defender, plus his arm strength is not consistent and he's not very accurate with it. Be prepared to see singles stretched to doubles and a lot of testing of Quentin's arm going first to third.



We need to see how the Twins new park plays. Their pitching was crap last year, and as you said, they won because of their offense. They've become quite the slugging offense. What if the ball doesn't fly well out of that place?

They also did pretty well when they didn't hit homers. As long as Mauer, Morneau, Kubel and Cuddyer are healthy, they have some pop. Span isn't bad. If Hardy bounces back, and if they sign either Cabrera or Hudson to play 2b, they will have a stacked line up no matter how the park plays. Delmon Young still has a ton of ability, but he's a question mark. Its a good thing they did make that trade because Garza and Bartlett would look very good in Minneapolis right now. I do know the White Sox didn't lose at the Metrodome last year because of the park. The Twins certainly have question marks, but right now, they have to be the favorite, which of course means nothing.

Pierre can't throw at all. He's a slight upgrade defensively to Pods. Not exactly a defensive wizard. Rios didn't have a stellar defensive year last year, but I agree he is an improvement, but the White Sox can improve defensively and still not be very good.

oeo
01-03-2010, 05:31 PM
They also did pretty well when they didn't hit homers. As long as Mauer, Morneau, Kubel and Cuddyer are healthy, they have some pop. Span isn't bad. If Hardy bounces back, and if they sign either Cabrera or Hudson to play 2b, they will have a stacked line up no matter how the park plays. Delmon Young still has a ton of ability, but he's a question mark. Its a good thing they did make that trade because Garza and Bartlett would look very good in Minneapolis right now. I do know the White Sox didn't lose at the Metrodome last year because of the park. The Twins certainly have question marks, but right now, they have to be the favorite, which of course means nothing.

Not just homeruns. What if the ball hangs in general, in the gaps, on short fly balls, etc. You never know until the games are played. It could be an extremely good pitcher's park.

I don't get how they're the favorite. They're two totally different teams. The Sox have a huge advantage in pitching and the Twins have a huge advantage in hitting.

Pierre can't throw at all. He's a slight upgrade defensively to Pods. Not exactly a defensive wizard. Rios didn't have a stellar defensive year last year, but I agree he is an improvement, but the White Sox can improve defensively and still not be very good.

Pierre's arm in LF is much less of a problem than Quentin's in RF. He showed to be a pretty good LF last year. Rios is much better than Pods/Wise.

Even if they're not 'very good', they don't have to be. They need to make the plays that need to be made, something they could not do at all 2009. Make the plays, you don't need to be superb unless your pitching is junk.

dickallen15
01-03-2010, 06:01 PM
Not just homeruns. What if the ball hangs in general, in the gaps, on short fly balls, etc. You never know until the games are played. It could be an extremely good pitcher's park.

I don't get how they're the favorite. They're two totally different teams. The Sox have a huge advantage in pitching and the Twins have a huge advantage in hitting.



Pierre's arm in LF is much less of a problem than Quentin's in RF. He showed to be a pretty good LF last year. Rios is much better than Pods/Wise.

Even if they're not 'very good', they don't have to be. They need to make the plays that need to be made, something they could not do at all 2009. Make the plays, you don't need to be superb unless your pitching is junk.

I think you're selling short their pitching. Baker, Blackburn are very good.
Duesing looked pretty decent. If Slowey or Liriano can make it back with Pavano the 5th guy, they could have a much better than average rotation and have Nathan at the end with guys like Guerrier in the middle. They have a solid roster.

russ99
01-03-2010, 07:47 PM
It is just ignorance. Earlier offseason and end of last year, there was all this clamoring to be like the Twins..... Why did the twins win this year? 4 players hit 28 or more home runs, those same 4 all drove in 94 or more runs. 2 of them did it hitting .300 or more. all 4 slugged over 500 and all 4 had atleast 30 doubles. Their lead off man had a .390 OBP.

So many people seem to think its just about speed or being more athletic. Its about having a guy at the top of the order who is on so the guys in the middle can drive him in. Do we even have 1 guy on our team we think can go .300-.375-.500 with 30 doubles 28 homers and 95 rbis Let alone 4?

It's all about balance. The homer or nothing philosophy doesn't work. If we have 2-3 sluggers (Konerko, Quentin, either Teahen or Jones) that will be enough. And we have lots of athleticism to make up for less power.

Domeshot17
01-03-2010, 08:13 PM
It's all about balance. The homer or nothing philosophy doesn't work. If we have 2-3 sluggers (Konerko, Quentin, either Teahen or Jones) that will be enough. And we have lots of athleticism to make up for less power.


Did you really just call TEAHEN a slugger?

No, simply put, you are wrong, and it is not enough. Konerko probably won't hit 30 homers, Quentin hasn't proven he can stay healthy, and if Teahen is our 3rd slugger,or Andruw Jones is a full time DH, We are screwed. We shouldn't be thinking about playing with the Twins. We should be thinking of playing with the Yanks and Red Sox, whom we will need to go through to win a world title. Athletecism does not score runs, slugging does. Speed may get you to first, but you don't steal home very often. The key is balance, but you need guys who can hit 30 homers and 30 doubles, not one or the other. Its pretty simple.

delben91
01-03-2010, 08:33 PM
Personally think we are going to be disappointed. The Cell plays poorly to double hitters.

The key is balance, but you need guys who can hit 30 homers and 30 doubles, not one or the other. Its pretty simple.

I'm honestly confused. The cell plays poorly to doubles hitters, but we need a power hitter that can hit homers and doubles? So the cell plays poorly to guys that hit only doubles, but well for guys that hit both homers and doubles?

What distinction am I missing here?

Frater Perdurabo
01-03-2010, 08:46 PM
Teahen, Beckham and Rios are "doubles hitters." Some of their XBHs that would be doubles in other parks will be homers at the Cell. But their ability to hit line drives into the gaps will allow them to hit doubles in Detroit and KC.

These three should just keep doing what they have done best in the past, which is hit the ball hard on a line, and not try to swing for the fences. If they try to swing for the fences, their home HR totals probably won't increase, they will just fly out more on the road, and they will strike out more overall.

If they just try to hit the ball hard on a line, they will hit more doubles AND more homers, and they will drive in more runs.

Domeshot17
01-03-2010, 09:00 PM
I'm honestly confused. The cell plays poorly to doubles hitters, but we need a power hitter that can hit homers and doubles? So the cell plays poorly to guys that hit only doubles, but well for guys that hit both homers and doubles?

What distinction am I missing here?

30 doubles doesn't really make a hitter a doubles hitter. Its fantastic for us, but really not great. My point was, Guys like Rios who made a living on 40-50 doubles a year should expect to see those numbers drop some.

My point was, people seem to think to get away from home run or nothing hitters we need to abandon the home run. Its a bull**** line of thinking that won't work. To get away from home run or nothing offense, you need sluggers who can hit homers and doubles. Last year IIRC we did not have 1 30 homer hitter, and we had 1 guy go over 30 doubles, on the last day of the season or last couple. Also, a good example of what I am saying, the Twins had 4 guys SLUG over .500 last year. We had none. The only 1 remotely close, Thome.

johnny_mostil
01-03-2010, 09:00 PM
However, going up the middle, going opposite field, manufacturing runs, and getting sac bunts down is a team mindset. It's contagious, much the same way hitting homers is. Good fundamental offensive baseball will beat a slugging ballclub any day of the week. Ask the Twins. They've pretty much owned us every year but '05 and '08.

Disagree. This is not 1910. Ask the Yankees, Phillies, and Red Sox fans how they won the last three championships. Manufactured runs don't make any difference at all. It's an artillery duel.

Domeshot17
01-03-2010, 09:08 PM
Disagree. This is not 1910. Ask the Yankees, Phillies, and Red Sox fans how they won the last three championships. Manufactured runs don't make any difference at all. It's an artillery duel.

Correct. Plus, the Twins are just a horrid myth of an example:

(1) The Sox have no one even close to the calibur of Mauer or Morneau offensively.

(2) The twins had 4 hitters last year who would have led our team in slugging.

(3) their lead off man got on base nealy 40% of the time!

Frater Perdurabo
01-03-2010, 09:17 PM
Correct. Plus, the Twins are just a horrid myth of an example:

(1) The Sox have no one even close to the calibur of Mauer or Morneau offensively.

(2) The twins had 4 hitters last year who would have led our team in slugging.

(3) their lead off man got on base nealy 40% of the time!

All of this is true. But it's also true that virtually everyone on the Twins - including their "big four" - ALSO can do the little things. That doesn't mean they are all stealing lots of bases, but almost all of them can go first to third and/or score from second on a single to RF. Most of them can score from first on a double to RF. Most of them can put down a bunt when called upon (obviously their big four are not asked to do so very often). Most of them can hit a sac fly when asked. Most of them can hit a ground ball to the right side when asked. The Twins offense shows that power and the ability to manufacture runs are not mutually exclusive. Even their crappiest players, like Nick Punto, at least can do those little things, as we have learned repeatedly over the years.

The problem is that the Sox have had a history of stacking their lineup with one-dimensional sluggers. When they slug well, they score runs in bunches. When the don't slug well, they lose. The 2005 Sox offense was different. It hit home runs, hit doubles, and manufactured runs.

Ranger
01-03-2010, 09:42 PM
Personally think we are going to be disappointed. The Cell plays poorly to double hitters. I am a fan of having them in the lineup, but you can't ignore power completely, and we are. Move the fences back then, so the park plays to the team. But a middle of the order of Beckham Quentin Konerko or AJ or Rios or whoever ozzie runs out there is one of the weakest in the AL. Its like, okay we needed some doubles and some speed, so we ignore power completely to get it. The truth is it won't score many more runs than last year. Especially with no lefty bat in the middle.

We are expecting all of the following to happen to just be okay offensively:

Rios bounces back
Beckham continues to grow
Quentin stays healthy (if he goes down, right now, the season might as well be over)
Teahen goes from a very average hitter and average fielder to above at both
Konerko does not decline
Pierre finds a way to get on base higher than 33% of the time.
Andruw Jones wakes up thinking its 2002

So many what if scenerios. Just wish we would add someone consistent and solid versus all these crap shoots.

And in terms of Merkin's piece, you know, its fun to read, but he gets paid to write good things about the White Sox.

How can any park "play poorly" to doubles-hitters? Doubles are never a bad thing. They may not have the power they used to have (which, by the way, is EXACTLY what most fans were begging for anyway. Trust me, I know. I talked to those people every night for 4 years. A lot of fans tired of the "HR or nothing" offense.), but it's never a bad thing to have some gap hitters.

So, basically people wanted an offense that wasn't so reliant on the home run. Well, here it is. What did you think was going to happen when they replaced guys like Thome and Dye with different types of hitters?

Also, Merkin does not get paid to write favorably. He's not encouraged, nor is he forced to do so.


And that is a losing strategy. Hoping for good pitching (with poor defense behind them, mind you) so we can put out a below-average offense is pathetic.

Why does everyone assume this is going to be a poor defense? This years' team will be nothing like last year's

mzh
01-03-2010, 09:43 PM
All of this is true. But it's also true that virtually everyone on the Twins - including their "big four" - ALSO can do the little things. That doesn't mean they are all stealing lots of bases, but almost all of them can go first to third and/or score from second on a single to RF. Most of them can score from first on a double to RF. Most of them can put down a bunt when called upon (obviously their big four are not asked to do so very often). Most of them can hit a sac fly when asked. Most of them can hit a ground ball to the right side when asked. The Twins offense shows that power and the ability to manufacture runs are not mutually exclusive. Even their crappiest players, like Nick Punto, at least can do those little things, as we have learned repeatedly over the years.

The problem is that the Sox have had a history of stacking their lineup with one-dimensional sluggers. When they slug well, they score runs in bunches. When the don't slug well, they lose. The 2005 Sox offense was different. It hit home runs, hit doubles, and manufactured runs.

My guess is that is one of the reasons that Vizquel was brought in as well- he is a friend of Ozzie's but is also a very good fundamental baseball player. He can mentor Alexei and Beckham and Teahen on doing the small things that Sox teams in the last decade have historically struggled with and the Twins have excelled at: bunting, moving from first to third, hitting to the opposite field, etc.

Even if Alexei suddenly learns how to bunt and Beckham doesn't go through a sophmore slump and gives us the same level of production as last year, we still need a dimension of power. Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones and Juan Pierre don't exactly strike fear into the hearts of opposing pitching. While a good team needs to know how to do the little things, they also need a good balance. Right now we have a plethora of 2, 5, and 6 hitters,We need someone proven who can hit 30+ homers and slug over .500 just to balance out this lineup.

MISoxfan
01-03-2010, 09:43 PM
30 doubles doesn't really make a hitter a doubles hitter. Its fantastic for us, but really not great. My point was, Guys like Rios who made a living on 40-50 doubles a year should expect to see those numbers drop some.

My point was, people seem to think to get away from home run or nothing hitters we need to abandon the home run. Its a bull**** line of thinking that won't work. To get away from home run or nothing offense, you need sluggers who can hit homers and doubles. Last year IIRC we did not have 1 30 homer hitter, and we had 1 guy go over 30 doubles, on the last day of the season or last couple. Also, a good example of what I am saying, the Twins had 4 guys SLUG over .500 last year. We had none. The only 1 remotely close, Thome.

I realize that remotely close is subjective, but I think Konerko's .489 is pretty close too.

MISoxfan
01-03-2010, 09:48 PM
It is just ignorance. Earlier offseason and end of last year, there was all this clamoring to be like the Twins..... Why did the twins win this year? 4 players hit 28 or more home runs, those same 4 all drove in 94 or more runs. 2 of them did it hitting .300 or more. all 4 slugged over 500 and all 4 had atleast 30 doubles. Their lead off man had a .390 OBP.

So many people seem to think its just about speed or being more athletic. Its about having a guy at the top of the order who is on so the guys in the middle can drive him in. Do we even have 1 guy on our team we think can go .300-.375-.500 with 30 doubles 28 homers and 95 rbis Let alone 4?

The Twins only had 1 guy put up .300-.375-.500 wit 30 doubles and 28 home runs and he was the MVP.

Daver
01-03-2010, 09:58 PM
Why does everyone assume this is going to be a poor defense? This years' team will be nothing like last year's


Speaking only for myself, the White Sox did nothing to improve a below average defensive team, Teahen is not an upgrade over who is replacing, Beckham at second is not an upgrade over Getz, Pierre is not an upgrade over Podsednick, Rios is an upgrade over Wise, but not over Anderson, and Quentin is a downgrade from Dye. AJ has never been strong defensively, Alexei takes lapses that seem to last for weeks, and Konerko is still Konerko.

Please enlighten me on how this team improved defensively.

WhiteSox5187
01-03-2010, 10:18 PM
Speaking only for myself, the White Sox did nothing to improve a below average defensive team, Teahen is not an upgrade over who is replacing, Beckham at second is not an upgrade over Getz, Pierre is not an upgrade over Podsednick, Rios is an upgrade over Wise, but not over Anderson, and Quentin is a downgrade from Dye. AJ has never been strong defensively, Alexei takes lapses that seem to last for weeks, and Konerko is still Konerko.

Please enlighten me on how this team improved defensively.

A few of the people in baseball that I've talked to (they are friends of my dad's, it's not like I have a rolodex of people in baseball) thought that Getz had awful range and that Beckham should have been playing second base as he was a better player in every aspect. I'm not so sure about Quentin being worse than Dye, Quentin gets awful reads off the ball, but Dye wasn't exactly Andre Dawson in right field either. I think Tehan will be equal to Beckham at the very least at third as Beckham was very green early on there (though he learned a hell of a lot by the end of the season and was a fairly good third baseman). I'm also curious to see what, if any, impact Vizquel might have on Alexei.

Waysouthsider
01-03-2010, 10:39 PM
I'm also curious to see what, if any, impact Vizquel might have on Alexei.


I just hope he can get him to pay attention!!! :D:

oeo
01-04-2010, 05:23 AM
How can any park "play poorly" to doubles-hitters? Doubles are never a bad thing.

They're not a bad thing, that's not what he was saying. The Cell has small gaps and a small field in general, so it's more difficult to hit a double (and a triple is just about impossible unless you have major wheels or something crazy happens). On the one hand, if it's hit hard enough it's a dinger, on the other hand, if it's not, it's likely to get tracked down. That's why when people say the Cell is a hitter's park, they're way off base. It's easy to do one thing in the Cell: hit homeruns, and that's it. After that, it's a pretty piss poor park for a hitter.

Ranger
01-04-2010, 12:59 PM
Speaking only for myself, the White Sox did nothing to improve a below average defensive team, Teahen is not an upgrade over who is replacing, Beckham at second is not an upgrade over Getz, Pierre is not an upgrade over Podsednick, Rios is an upgrade over Wise, but not over Anderson, and Quentin is a downgrade from Dye. AJ has never been strong defensively, Alexei takes lapses that seem to last for weeks, and Konerko is still Konerko.

Please enlighten me on how this team improved defensively.


Alright, I'll enlighten you by telling you that you're pretty much wrong about every single player you've just mentioned except for Konerko and AJ...you are right about that. Although AJ's strength isn't throwing out runners, he's a pretty good backstop. Pierre IS better than Podsednik, Beckham IS better than Getz, Quentin will be just fine in right (it's not as if Dye was spectacular out there last year), Alexei started to play a whole lot better in the last two months of the season (the trend in the right direction). I also don't agree that Anderson is better than Rios. They're both pretty comparable.

dickallen15
01-04-2010, 01:36 PM
Alright, I'll enlighten you by telling you that you're pretty much wrong about every single player you've just mentioned except for Konerko and AJ...you are right about that. Although AJ's strength isn't throwing out runners, he's a pretty good backstop. Pierre IS better than Podsednik, Beckham IS better than Getz, Quentin will be just fine in right (it's not as if Dye was spectacular out there last year), Alexei started to play a whole lot better in the last two months of the season (the trend in the right direction). I also don't agree that Anderson is better than Rios. They're both pretty comparable.

Anderson is better than Rios defensively. Quentin in RF may be better than Dye, but he's not going to remind anyone of Dwight Evans. Pierre may be better than Pods, but that's like saying Dick Vitale has more hair than Michael Jordan. I don't know how anyone can think Beckham is better than Getz since we haven't seen him play 2B, and I believe Getz at 2B and Beckham at 3B is better defensively than Beckham at 2B and Teahan at 3B, although it remains to be seen. Anyway the difference isn't that big. Alexei's improvement, I didn't really notice. He has a lot of ability. He just is lost a lot of the time. The defense might be slightly worse right now than last season, or it might be slightly better. Defense isn't a White Sox strength right now.

pudge
01-04-2010, 01:39 PM
All that aside, I'm counting over 170 HRs from the potential starting lineup (averaged out Kotsay/Jones HR average to 22.5), which is pretty solid.

I completely disagree. As a matter of fact, for as much as we recall how lowly the 2005 offense could be, they hit 200 homers - that's 30 more than you're projecting, and your projections could be even lower.

All this disgust over homers is just a fools game. Now, I do agree our lineup was too slow, but that's a different argument.

LoveYourSuit
01-04-2010, 01:43 PM
Alright, I'll enlighten you by telling you that you're pretty much wrong about every single player you've just mentioned except for Konerko and AJ...you are right about that. Although AJ's strength isn't throwing out runners, he's a pretty good backstop. Pierre IS better than Podsednik, Beckham IS better than Getz, Quentin will be just fine in right (it's not as if Dye was spectacular out there last year), Alexei started to play a whole lot better in the last two months of the season (the trend in the right direction). I also don't agree that Anderson is better than Rios. They're both pretty comparable.


Case and point, it still is a very average defensive ball club. Comparing these guys to who they are replacing is like looking for tallest midgets.

An average defensive club to me should give you a high powered offense. I am OK with that. But it looks to me like we are getting the worst of both worlds here if we do not add a big masher for the middle of the order.

Regardless of where we all stand on this, we do agree that it would be a tremendous shame to let such a promising pitching staff go to waste by either lack of run support or guys not catching the ball.

doublem23
01-04-2010, 01:59 PM
A few of the people in baseball that I've talked to (they are friends of my dad's, it's not like I have a rolodex of people in baseball) thought that Getz had awful range and that Beckham should have been playing second base as he was a better player in every aspect. I'm not so sure about Quentin being worse than Dye, Quentin gets awful reads off the ball, but Dye wasn't exactly Andre Dawson in right field either. I think Tehan will be equal to Beckham at the very least at third as Beckham was very green early on there (though he learned a hell of a lot by the end of the season and was a fairly good third baseman). I'm also curious to see what, if any, impact Vizquel might have on Alexei.

Yeah, this Getz/Beckham thing makes me laugh every time. I liked Chris Getz a lot, but I just do not know what people saw from him that makes him some sort of elite defender at 2B. It's so ridiculous, I don't even bother with responding to it any more.

Bacon a downgrade at 2B over Getz. :rolling:

SI1020
01-04-2010, 02:11 PM
Anderson is better than Rios defensively. Quentin in RF may be better than Dye, but he's not going to remind anyone of Dwight Evans. Pierre may be better than Pods, but that's like saying Dick Vitale has more hair than Michael Jordan. I don't know how anyone can think Beckham is better than Getz since we haven't seen him play 2B, and I believe Getz at 2B and Beckham at 3B is better defensively than Beckham at 2B and Teahan at 3B, although it remains to be seen. Anyway the difference isn't that big. Alexei's improvement, I didn't really notice. He has a lot of ability. He just is lost a lot of the time. The defense might be slightly worse right now than last season, or it might be slightly better. Defense isn't a White Sox strength right now. What he said.

oeo
01-04-2010, 02:21 PM
I don't know how anyone can think Beckham is better than Getz since we haven't seen him play 2B, and I believe Getz at 2B and Beckham at 3B is better defensively than Beckham at 2B and Teahan at 3B, although it remains to be seen.

Considering Getz isn't a great defender to begin with, it's not far out. He showed very little range, his arm is 10x weaker than Beckham's (which will make the double play turn and balls up the middle a lot closer), Beckham is a smarter baseball player, Beckham is more athletic, should I go on...? He's not being compared to a Gold Glove second baseman here, he's being compared to an average, at best, second baseman.

Anderson is better than Rios defensively. Quentin in RF may be better than Dye, but he's not going to remind anyone of Dwight Evans. Pierre may be better than Pods, but that's like saying Dick Vitale has more hair than Michael Jordan. I don't know how anyone can think Beckham is better than Getz since we haven't seen him play 2B, and I believe Getz at 2B and Beckham at 3B is better defensively than Beckham at 2B and Teahan at 3B, although it remains to be seen. Anyway the difference isn't that big. Alexei's improvement, I didn't really notice. He has a lot of ability. He just is lost a lot of the time. The defense might be slightly worse right now than last season, or it might be slightly better. Defense isn't a White Sox strength right now.

If you didn't notice Alexei's improvement in the second half, specifically the last month, then you weren't paying attention. And that's not a rip at you, the Sox were out of it, it's tough to fully get into the games. He showed incredible range to his left and worked out those bad throws he was making earlier in the year. IIRC, Ozzie either benched him or scolded him at one point to stop being lazy and he showed a lot of improvement.

thedudeabides
01-04-2010, 02:23 PM
Yeah, this Getz/Beckham thing makes me laugh every time. I liked Chris Getz a lot, but I just do not know what people saw from him that makes him some sort of elite defender at 2B. It's so ridiculous, I don't even bother with responding to it any more.

Bacon a downgrade at 2B over Getz. :rolling:

I don't really get it either. Getz was a poor defender at 2b last year. I'm glad people have already made up their minds about him and Teahen defensively, as I think they will both exceed peoples expectations.

People here are talking like Teahen is Josh Fields at third. He is pretty much a league average third basemen with a chance to be better when given a full season at the position.

And whoever is saying that the Sox current defensive outfield isn't drastically better is kidding themselves. Dye may have been the worst regular corner outfielder in baseball last year, and Podsednick isn't far behind. Not to mention Pods spent a good amount of time in CF. Our outfield defense last year was one of the worst I have seen. With Rios in CF and Pierre in LF for a full season, that could be a drastic improvement, not just a slight improvement. I have to admit I'm not sure what to expect out of Carlos in right. A lot if that depends on his health. I also think he will spend a fair share of his time as the DH.

dickallen15
01-04-2010, 02:54 PM
Considering Getz isn't a great defender to begin with, it's not far out. He showed very little range, his arm is 10x weaker than Beckham's (which will make the double play turn and balls up the middle a lot closer), Beckham is a smarter baseball player, Beckham is more athletic, should I go on...? He's not being compared to a Gold Glove second baseman here, he's being compared to an average, at best, second baseman.



If you didn't notice Alexei's improvement in the second half, specifically the last month, then you weren't paying attention. And that's not a rip at you, the Sox were out of it, it's tough to fully get into the games. He showed incredible range to his left and worked out those bad throws he was making earlier in the year. IIRC, Ozzie either benched him or scolded him at one point to stop being lazy and he showed a lot of improvement.

Looking at Bill James book, Getz' RF was among the top 7 in baseball at 2B. Range was never Alexei's problem. Its concentration, and that is not something that anyone can say is fixed with any certainty.

Noneck
01-04-2010, 02:58 PM
Since this conversation has turned to defense this what I would like. Push back the fences as far as you can, get a excellent centerfielder (do the likes of Jim Landis, Ken Berry or Jimmy Piersall exist anymore?), Rios to right, put Beckam back at 3rd, Vizquel at 2nd (Teahen fills in), sign Henry Blanco if can still throw and let him play 60 games and give AJ some DH time, Flip Flop Quentin and Pierre in left and DH. Teach the pitchers how to hold base runners. Go with your best defense and ride the 4 starters.

dickallen15
01-04-2010, 02:59 PM
Yeah, this Getz/Beckham thing makes me laugh every time. I liked Chris Getz a lot, but I just do not know what people saw from him that makes him some sort of elite defender at 2B. It's so ridiculous, I don't even bother with responding to it any more.

Bacon a downgrade at 2B over Getz. :rolling:

He might not be a downgrade, but wouldn't Teahan be a downgrade at 3B from Beckham? I don't see a vastly improved defense.

dickallen15
01-04-2010, 03:00 PM
I don't really get it either. Getz was a poor defender at 2b last year. I'm glad people have already made up their minds about him and Teahen defensively, as I think they will both exceed peoples expectations.

People here are talking like Teahen is Josh Fields at third. He is pretty much a league average third basemen with a chance to be better when given a full season at the position.

And whoever is saying that the Sox current defensive outfield isn't drastically better is kidding themselves. Dye may have been the worst regular corner outfielder in baseball last year, and Podsednick isn't far behind. Not to mention Pods spent a good amount of time in CF. Our outfield defense last year was one of the worst I have seen. With Rios in CF and Pierre in LF for a full season, that could be a drastic improvement, not just a slight improvement. I have to admit I'm not sure what to expect out of Carlos in right. A lot if that depends on his health. I also think he will spend a fair share of his time as the DH.

First you say whoever is saying the current OF defense isn't drastically better is kidding themselves then in the same paragraph say it could be a drastic improvement. You have kidded yourself. :smile:

voodoochile
01-04-2010, 03:09 PM
I don't really get it either. Getz was a poor defender at 2b last year. I'm glad people have already made up their minds about him and Teahen defensively, as I think they will both exceed peoples expectations.

People here are talking like Teahen is Josh Fields at third. He is pretty much a league average third basemen with a chance to be better when given a full season at the position.

And whoever is saying that the Sox current defensive outfield isn't drastically better is kidding themselves. Dye may have been the worst regular corner outfielder in baseball last year, and Podsednick isn't far behind. Not to mention Pods spent a good amount of time in CF. Our outfield defense last year was one of the worst I have seen. With Rios in CF and Pierre in LF for a full season, that could be a drastic improvement, not just a slight improvement. I have to admit I'm not sure what to expect out of Carlos in right. A lot if that depends on his health. I also think he will spend a fair share of his time as the DH.

The other side of that OF coin is using BA as the standard to judge whether Rios will be an upgrade. Even if in theory BA was a better defender, the reality is he wasn't playing and ended up getting traded. So the reality is CF defense has taken a big jump from last year's team. Now I know we can get into a debate about whether BA should have been playing, but I'm hoping we won't go there for the 10,000,000th time. The fact is he WASN'T playing so the CF defense this year will be improved from where it was the majority of last year in actuality.

thedudeabides
01-04-2010, 03:14 PM
First you say whoever is saying the current OF defense isn't drastically better is kidding themselves then in the same paragraph say it could be a drastic improvement. You have kidded yourself. :smile:

Sorry if the wording was confusing, I meant to say it will be a drastic improvement. :wink:

doublem23
01-04-2010, 03:15 PM
He might not be a downgrade, but wouldn't Teahan be a downgrade at 3B from Beckham? I don't see a vastly improved defense.

Since I generally don't watch Royals games other than when they play us, I really can't comment on Teahen's defense. He's played a grand total of 77 games against us in his career, and maybe at best, 1/2 of them have been at 3B. I do not believe I have enough information to make wild conclusions of his defensive prowess.

Bacon was good at 3B, but he was also very raw and had extreme problems with balls hit to his right. He was great, when taken in the context of his career path, but anyone making definitive statements like Bacon @ 3B, Getz @ 2B > Bacon @2B, Teahen @ 3B on January 4th is just being dark cloud to be a dark cloud. That's definitely not an opinion worth taking too seriously.

dickallen15
01-04-2010, 03:19 PM
The other side of that OF coin is using BA as the standard to judge whether Rios will be an upgrade. Even if in theory BA was a better defender, the reality is he wasn't playing and ended up getting traded. So the reality is CF defense has taken a big jump from last year's team. Now I know we can get into a debate about whether BA should have been playing, but I'm hoping we won't go there for the 10,000,000th time. The fact is he WASN'T playing so the CF defense this year will be improved from where it was the majority of last year in actuality.
Rios was playing CF and RF with last years team. The defense was still terrible.

dickallen15
01-04-2010, 03:24 PM
Since I generally don't watch Royals games other than when they play us, I really can't comment on Teahen's defense. He's played a grand total of 77 games against us in his career, and maybe at best, 1/2 of them have been at 3B. I do not believe I have enough information to make wild conclusions of his defensive prowess.

Bacon was good at 3B, but he was also very raw and had extreme problems with balls hit to his right. He was great, when taken in the context of his career path, but anyone making definitive statements like Bacon @ 3B, Getz @ 2B > Bacon @2B, Teahen @ 3B on January 4th is just being dark cloud to be a dark cloud. That's definitely not an opinion worth taking too seriously.
Its not being a dark cloud. I would think the Beckham at 3b Getz at 2B vs. Beckham at 2b and Teahan at 3B is probably similar defensively, and either a slight upgrade or a slight downgrade. Certainly not drastic improvement. The White Sox need to have a real good offense. I suppose we could just go with the company line and say everything will be great. Of course last year many did that and thought guys like Lillibridge and Marquez would be huge contributors. I

voodoochile
01-04-2010, 03:48 PM
Rios was playing CF and RF with last years team. The defense was still terrible.

Only for the last 6 weeks of the season and actually that's when the defense started to show improvement though most of it was due to Ramirez making a leap of progress at SS, IMO.

voodoochile
01-04-2010, 03:52 PM
Its not being a dark cloud. I would think the Beckham at 3b Getz at 2B vs. Beckham at 2b and Teahan at 3B is probably similar defensively, and either a slight upgrade or a slight downgrade. Certainly not drastic improvement. The White Sox need to have a real good offense. I suppose we could just go with the company line and say everything will be great. Of course last year many did that and thought guys like Lillibridge and Marquez would be huge contributors. I

Will Teahen's improved bat (compared to Getz) be enough to offset any loss of defense the team might experience.

Ranger
01-04-2010, 03:56 PM
Rios was playing CF and RF with last years team. The defense was still terrible.

You really think Rios had anything to do with the poor overall team defense last year?

dickallen15
01-04-2010, 04:04 PM
You really think Rios had anything to do with the poor overall team defense last year?
He wasn't very good last year. I'm just saying he was with the team for a while and it certainly wasn't like night and day defensively when he was in there. Of course he was in RF sometimes and CF sometimes.

dickallen15
01-04-2010, 04:06 PM
Will Teahen's improved bat (compared to Getz) be enough to offset any loss of defense the team might experience.

I really don't know how much of an upgrade his bat is. Getz did little things. His 25 steals in 27 attempts will be missed IMO.Teahan the last couple of years hasn't hit many homers, doesn't get on base particularly often and fans a bunch. I still don't understand acquiring him. They are obviously hoping for a breakout, and hopefully he comes through.

tstrike2000
01-04-2010, 04:12 PM
My biggest concern is actually right field. Teahen should be adequate at 3B, Alexei should be fine provided he stops throwing the damn ball in the dirt, and 2B I think will be alright. However, Quentin has to prove to me he can throw people out at 3B or home from right. Arm strength isn't going to matter if he's not on the mark.

TheOldRoman
01-04-2010, 04:17 PM
I suppose we could just go with the company line and say everything will be great. Of course last year many did that and thought guys like Lillibridge and Marquez would be huge contributors. Sigh. We went through this a few weeks ago. Everyone jumped all over you and you scurried away.

I suppose we could just go with the anti-company line and say everything will be catastrophic. Of course in the past few years many did that and thought guys like Quentin and Floyd would be huge flops.

voodoochile
01-04-2010, 05:14 PM
I really don't know how much of an upgrade his bat is. Getz did little things. His 25 steals in 27 attempts will be missed IMO.Teahan the last couple of years hasn't hit many homers, doesn't get on base particularly often and fans a bunch. I still don't understand acquiring him. They are obviously hoping for a breakout, and hopefully he comes through.

Well Teahen posted an OPS 60+ points higher than Getz while going 8/9 in SB attempts. Most of the OPS difference was due to a higher slg% which most people assume will actually go up playing at USCF 81 games a year. Since Getz played here last year we already know what his numbers are.

I don't know if Teahen will steal more bases or less this coming year but at the worst including Getz's extra SB they are a wash offensively and I for one expect Teahen's numbers to go up.

Daver
01-04-2010, 07:33 PM
Alright, I'll enlighten you by telling you that you're pretty much wrong about every single player you've just mentioned except for Konerko and AJ...you are right about that. Although AJ's strength isn't throwing out runners, he's a pretty good backstop. Pierre IS better than Podsednik, Beckham IS better than Getz, Quentin will be just fine in right (it's not as if Dye was spectacular out there last year), Alexei started to play a whole lot better in the last two months of the season (the trend in the right direction). I also don't agree that Anderson is better than Rios. They're both pretty comparable.

As usual, we will agree to disagree, the White Sox outfield is going to get run on by anyone with even average speed, and an infield that has a below average third baseman, an erratic SS, less than a rookie at second, and a decent first baseman. Suffice it to say I hope most grounders get hit towards the mound, most of the pitchers are decent fielders.

Ranger
01-04-2010, 07:59 PM
As usual, we will agree to disagree, the White Sox outfield is going to get run on by anyone with even average speed, and an infield that has a below average third baseman, an erratic SS, less than a rookie at second, and a decent first baseman. Suffice it to say I hope most grounders get hit towards the mound, most of the pitchers are decent fielders.


I guess we will. You're holding a hyper-pessimistic view of the roster. The outfield is not going to be nearly as bad as you think. They had a pretty good defensive team at one time...even with Podsednik in left field. Pierre is better than Podsednik. Rios is a very good center fielder and Quentin will be fine in right field.

You just simply weren't paying close enough atention if you didn't see Ramirez get better by the end of last season. And Beckham being a rookie has nothing to do with anything. You're basically saying that a rookie is incapable of playing well defensively, even though every single scout said upon his draft that he'd be pretty good at second base. Konerko is also actually pretty good on defense.

This defense will be better.

thedudeabides
01-04-2010, 08:07 PM
As usual, we will agree to disagree, the White Sox outfield is going to get run on by anyone with even average speed, and an infield that has a below average third baseman, an erratic SS, less than a rookie at second, and a decent first baseman. Suffice it to say I hope most grounders get hit towards the mound, most of the pitchers are decent fielders.

In todays game it's much more important to be able to go out and get the ball. Teams today aren't nearly as aggressive on the basepaths as they used to be. Besides, Rios throws well and Quentin's arm isn't bad. Pierre can't throw a lick, but that's why he's in left.

TomBradley72
01-04-2010, 08:38 PM
My $0.02:


Quentin is a solid LF..but from watching him the past few years..I'd project him to be barely adequate/possibly below average in RF...I hope I'm wrong. Not much of a drop from Dye, but not much of an upgrade either.
Teahan is a "placeholder" at best at 3rd base...strikes out a lot, power numbers will probably go up at the Cell...I'd like him as some type of 'super sub"...but he's not a long term answer at 3rd.
Beckham will be average defensively at 2nd base...but a "plus" as far as his offense goes. Getz wasn't much above average there anyway. I think they think this is his best fit for the long run, so instead of wasting another year at 3rd...they made the Getz/Teahan move.
Ramirez is the key to the defense...if he becomes a GG type SS...our defense "up the middle" looks dramatically different..he was on a positive trend in the 2nd half...but has a way to go.

Ranger
01-04-2010, 08:51 PM
In todays game it's much more important to be able to go out and get the ball. Teams today aren't nearly as aggressive on the basepaths as they used to be. Besides, Rios throws well and Quentin's arm isn't bad. Pierre can't throw a lick, but that's why he's in left.

We have to keep in mind that Pierre is not playing center field. He's much better in left than he is in center.

Ranger
01-04-2010, 08:54 PM
My $0.02:


Quentin is a solid LF..but from watching him the past few years..I'd project him to be barely adequate/possibly below average in RF...I hope I'm wrong. Not much of a drop from Dye, but not much of an upgrade either.
Teahan is a "placeholder" at best at 3rd base...strikes out a lot, power numbers will probably go up at the Cell...I'd like him as some type of 'super sub"...but he's not a long term answer at 3rd.
Beckham will be average defensively at 2nd base...but a "plus" as far as his offense goes. Getz wasn't much above average there anyway. I think they think this is his best fit for the long run, so instead of wasting another year at 3rd...they made the Getz/Teahan move.
Ramirez is the key to the defense...if he becomes a GG type SS...our defense "up the middle" looks dramatically different..he was on a positive trend in the 2nd half...but has a way to go.


What about Quentin is it that makes you think he won't play well in right? I don't think he's going to be a gold glover, but I doubt he's going to hurt them out there.

Teahen is going to be bterr than people realize, now that he has an everyday position and knows the job is his. That kind of thing goes a long way.

Beckahm will be at least average at second. He's definitely not going to hurt them.

I agree with you on Ramirez. He's heading in the right direction but needs to prove it for a full year.

Daver
01-04-2010, 09:00 PM
You just simply weren't paying close enough atention if you didn't see Ramirez get better by the end of last season. And Beckham being a rookie has nothing to do with anything. You're basically saying that a rookie is incapable of playing well defensively, even though every single scout said upon his draft that he'd be pretty good at second base. Konerko is also actually pretty good on defense.


I have all the games recorded, you're confusing a short stint of playing decent when compared to a few months of playing badly.

And I think you have an optimistic look at Beckham playing a position he has never played before against the best hitters on the planet behind a pitching staff that induces a lot of ground balls. He was about average as a middle infielder in college, he's not in college anymore.

Sorry, I ain't gonna drink the kool-aid.

Ranger
01-04-2010, 09:07 PM
I have all the games recorded, you're confusing a short stint of playing decent when compared to a few months of playing badly.

And I think you have an optimistic look at Beckham playing a position he has never played before against the best hitters on the planet behind a pitching staff that induces a lot of ground balls. He was about average as a middle infielder in college, he's not in college anymore.

Sorry, I ain't gonna drink the kool-aid.


It's not optimism. It's reality. There is every reason to believe those two guys will play well at their positions this year. Beckham was average at shortstop (the tougher position), not second base. He was the best athlete on the team which is why he played there. He was destined to be moved to second base from the beginning.

And I'm fully aware of Alexei's troubles early on, but don't you think the most important thing is the recent trend? How could you not? I mean, if he had finished poorly over the last two months and had suddenly forgotten how to play defense, I think it would be more likely he's gonna have it rough this year. But he got better as the season went on. And it wasn't a short stint, it was about 2 months. Maybe you should go back to some of your recordings and watch them.

doublem23
01-04-2010, 09:11 PM
And I think you have an optimistic look at Beckham playing a position he has never played before against the best hitters on the planet behind a pitching staff that induces a lot of ground balls. He was about average as a middle infielder in college, he's not in college anymore.

That's verbatim what people said about Beckham's move to 3B (myself included) and he was good, very good for a guy learning on the fly.

Whatever, he's going to be miles better than Getz.

khan
01-04-2010, 09:14 PM
To the point of this thread, the offense [as currently constructed] isn't very good. While there is still time before Opening Day, I will continue to hope for a middle-of-the-order bat to fix some of this.


Carry on, then...

thomas35forever
01-04-2010, 09:31 PM
Have we plugged up all the holes on offense? No. Does that mean we won't? No. I won't get too worried about this until ST. I might have concerns about it then. If that's the case, the rotation better be ready to have a heckuva season or 2010 could be as bad as '09.

NLaloosh
01-05-2010, 12:03 AM
It's not optimism. It's reality. There is every reason to believe those two guys will play well at their positions this year. Beckham was average at shortstop (the tougher position), not second base. He was the best athlete on the team which is why he played there. He was destined to be moved to second base from the beginning.

And I'm fully aware of Alexei's troubles early on, but don't you think the most important thing is the recent trend? How could you not? I mean, if he had finished poorly over the last two months and had suddenly forgotten how to play defense, I think it would be more likely he's gonna have it rough this year. But he got better as the season went on. And it wasn't a short stint, it was about 2 months. Maybe you should go back to some of your recordings and watch them.

I think that Ozzie Guillen knows a bit about playing SS. He's also had Uribe there and he likes Ramirez at SS and is confident with him. Also, having Omar here can only help him get even better.

And, I watched all of the games last year and he was never bad at any point.

guillensdisciple
01-05-2010, 12:43 AM
I don't see why people are so down on this team offensively. If you look at the White Sox in the last month you will see the rise of Quentin back into his actual potential. That guy was huge for the White Sox in 2008 and having him under perform and lose playing time due to injury is what did us in last year. Alexei will be consistent, and Beckham will only get better. To add on to these points, the addition of Pierre and Teahen means we have some stability in the third base and outfield positions that we did not have last year. Our defense will be improved, and it cost us a good 5- 10 games last year at the least.

While it does suck losing someone like Dye, I do believe you can find an adequate replacement or make due with Andruw Jones/ Tyler Flowers. They have the capacity to play up to the standard of a pure dh and will probably do us more good than actual harm. To tell you the truth, I was most worried about our defensive look coming into the offseason, and I am happy to see taht Kenny has gone a long way in improving that. The hitting will work itself out. A lot of what we saw last year was really crappy, and should not have been the true performance of the White Sox. This year will see the ascendancy of Quentin and Beckham into stardom.

soxfanatlanta
01-05-2010, 07:37 AM
This year will see the ascendancy of Quentin and Beckham into stardom.

I'll agree with you with Beckham, but I am leery about relying on TCQ's bat; he gets hurt too often.

TomBradley72
01-05-2010, 12:23 PM
What about Quentin is it that makes you think he won't play well in right? I don't think he's going to be a gold glover, but I doubt he's going to hurt them out there.



I'm concerned about his overall range in RF....he may not "hurt us"....but I think ideally he's a LF. Like I said in my post...he's not an upgrade over Dye...but probably not much of a downgrade either.

SI1020
01-05-2010, 01:51 PM
I'm concerned about his overall range in RF....he may not "hurt us"....but I think ideally he's a LF. Like I said in my post...he's not an upgrade over Dye...but probably not much of a downgrade either. I agree. TCQ would be best in LF. Another thing. We're moving players around like chess pieces and expecting them to shine at their new positions. It would be nice if they performed adequately. It's entirely possible they won't. As of now a lot of things have to fall into place for the Sox in 2010. Yes you can say that about a lot of teams but I'd prefer not to say it so emphatically about mine.

Ranger
01-05-2010, 03:27 PM
I'm concerned about his overall range in RF....he may not "hurt us"....but I think ideally he's a LF. Like I said in my post...he's not an upgrade over Dye...but probably not much of a downgrade either.

Well, there you go. I wouldn't expect a negative difference, and if there is, it won't be significant enough to matter.

I agree. TCQ would be best in LF. Another thing. We're moving players around like chess pieces and expecting them to shine at their new positions. It would be nice if they performed adequately. It's entirely possible they won't. As of now a lot of things have to fall into place for the Sox in 2010. Yes you can say that about a lot of teams but I'd prefer not to say it so emphatically about mine.

But it is also entirely possible that they will. They're certainly capable of it. Quentin is not a stranger to RF...he's played there before and has played there at this level. The move isn't going to be a shock to him or anything.

TomBradley72
01-05-2010, 03:43 PM
Well, there you go. I wouldn't expect a negative difference, and if there is, it won't be significant enough to matter.



Unfortunately Ranger...I think Dye wasn't exactly a "benchmark" RF the past few years...so while we're not seeing a drop off....I don't think TCQ really belongs in RF.

I probably put more value on outfield defense than most people...I'd like to see a stonger defense out there...but this is a team of compromises.

Daver
01-05-2010, 03:49 PM
I agree. TCQ would be best in LF. Another thing. We're moving players around like chess pieces and expecting them to shine at their new positions. It would be nice if they performed adequately. It's entirely possible they won't. As of now a lot of things have to fall into place for the Sox in 2010. Yes you can say that about a lot of teams but I'd prefer not to say it so emphatically about mine.

I was told that the optimism of players performing well in new positions was in fact, reality.

Suffice it to say I'll believe it when I see it.

LoveYourSuit
01-05-2010, 03:54 PM
All I will say is that I don't mind losing offensive power and "thump" at the expense of having good defense.

Right now I still see a suspect defense and a power-less line-up.

My only optmism will hang on Peavy-Buehrle-Gavin-Danks-Garcia taking that mound every 5th day. It will be a tragedy if we let this go to waste because of lack of run support and mediocre defense.

khan
01-05-2010, 04:39 PM
I don't see why people are so down on this team offensively.
Really? I'll try to help you.

If you look at the White Sox in the last month you will see the rise of Quentin back into his actual potential.
You will also see that Quentin was on the DL much more than a man his age should be. For that matter, why should we as SOX fans count on him? He hasn't shown the ability to REMAIN healthy. By extension, Quentin can't help the offense, the team, and his contract negotiations from the trainer's room.

Alexei will be consistent,
I can agree to this.

and Beckham will only get better.
Or maybe opponents will figure him out. Or maybe he'll get "incumbent's disease" and become lazier. Or maybe he'll listen to Walker, and regress as a hitter. There are any number of reasons why he might have a sophomore slump, or simply not progress. [I think that he will progress in 2010, but wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't.]

To add on to these points, the addition of Pierre and Teahen means we have some stability in the third base and outfield positions that we did not have last year.
Exactly what proportion of "stability" does Pierre provide that Pods didn't last season. For that matter, what proportion of "stability" does Teahen have over Beckham?

Moreover, exactly how does this support your support of what looks like a middling offense as currently comprised?

While it does suck losing someone like Dye, I do believe you can find an adequate replacement or make due with Andruw Jones/ Tyler Flowers.
Funny that Flowers is confirmed to have been a PED cheat, while Jones' performance "magically" crapified once they started testing. Add onto this that Flowers' looooooooonng swing was ripe for strikeouts last season, while Jones seems to get ****tier and ****ter with each passing non-PED year. I don't know about you, but Dye might do as well at the bat as these two in 2010.

The hitting will work itself out.
Do you really believe this? Compared to the Twins, this offense sucks. Look at their numbers from 2009, and then look at the SOX's numbers. For that matter, compare the SOX's 2009 numbers to that of the other playoff teams in both the NL and AL. You will then understand why many of us here are concerned about the offense of the SOX.

Assembling an incomplete team [as KW did in 2009 and 2007] usually doesn't "work itself out."

A lot of what we saw last year was really crappy, and should not have been the true performance of the White Sox.
OK. Why should we as fans hope for a "magical" improvement in this team's ****ty offense?

This year will see the ascendancy of Quentin and Beckham into stardom.
Or, we could see Quentin on the DL for months, while Beckham regresses. I HOPE NOT, but it is equally possible for them to emerge as it is for them to regress.

Ranger
01-05-2010, 04:40 PM
Unfortunately Ranger...I think Dye wasn't exactly a "benchmark" RF the past few years...so while we're not seeing a drop off....I don't think TCQ really belongs in RF.

I probably put more value on outfield defense than most people...I'd like to see a stonger defense out there...but this is a team of compromises.

That's the thing though, he probably does belong out there and was in line to play RF for teh D-backs until he got hurt and then eventually traded. The only reason he didn't start in RF here was because the Sox had Dye.

There should be no reason at all (unless he's hurt) that he can't play the position because he's more than capable of it.

I was told that the optimism of players performing well in new positions was in fact, reality.

Suffice it to say I'll believe it when I see it.

Why is it optimistic to assume something might happen that is entirely possible, if not likely, to happen? Nobody is going to be asked to anything above their capabilities.

It's not a stretch to think Quentin can play RF, or Beckham can play 2B, or for Teahen to play third...especially since Teahen isn't going ot be moved all over the damn field like he had been.

It's not optimism...it's completely realistic.

Ranger
01-05-2010, 04:45 PM
Really? I'll try to help you.


You will also see that Quentin was on the DL much more than a man his age should be. For that matter, why should we as SOX fans count on him? He hasn't shown the ability to REMAIN healthy. By extension, Quentin can't help the offense, the team, and his contract negotiations from the trainer's room.


I can agree to this.


Or maybe opponents will figure him out. Or maybe he'll get "incumbent's disease" and become lazier. Or maybe he'll listen to Walker, and regress as a hitter. There are any number of reasons why he might have a sophomore slump, or simply not progress. [I think that he will progress in 2010, but wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't.]


Exactly what proportion of "stability" does Pierre provide that Pods didn't last season. For that matter, what proportion of "stability" does Teahen have over Beckham?

Moreover, exactly how does this support your support of what looks like a middling offense as currently comprised?


Funny that Flowers is confirmed to have been a PED cheat, while Jones' performance "magically" crapified once they started testing. Add onto this that Flowers' looooooooonng swing was ripe for strikeouts last season, while Jones seems to get ****tier and ****ter with each passing non-PED year. I don't know about you, but Dye might do as well at the bat as these two in 2010.


Do you really believe this? Compared to the Twins, this offense sucks. Look at their numbers from 2009, and then look at the SOX's numbers. For that matter, compare the SOX's 2009 numbers to that of the other playoff teams in both the NL and AL. You will then understand why many of us here are concerned about the offense of the SOX.

Assembling an incomplete team [as KW did in 2009 and 2007] usually doesn't "work itself out."


OK. Why should we as fans hope for a "magical" improvement in this team's ****ty offense?


Or, we could see Quentin on the DL for months, while Beckham regresses. I HOPE NOT, but it is equally possible for them to emerge as it is for them to regress.


I was going to respond seriously to this until I saw the Walker comment. Yeah, hitters have gotten worse because they listened to him. Like that time Quentin put up an MVP season, or that time Dye put up an MVP quality season. Ugh.

Daver
01-05-2010, 04:52 PM
I was going to respond seriously to this until I saw the Walker comment. Yeah, hitters have gotten worse because they listened to him. Like that time Quentin put up an MVP season, or that time Dye put up an MVP quality season. Ugh.

What's even more amusing is the fact that he actually believes that.

khan
01-05-2010, 04:59 PM
I was going to respond seriously to this until I saw the Walker comment. Yeah, hitters have gotten worse because they listened to him. Like that time Quentin put up an MVP season, or that time Dye put up an MVP quality season. Ugh.
Did I actually need to put that in teal for you?

The overarching point I was making to guillendisciple is that it shouldn't be taken as a given that Beckham and Quentin will ascend into stardom.

khan
01-05-2010, 05:01 PM
What's even more amusing is the fact that he actually believes that.

What's even more amuzing is your ability to read minds. I'm still not a big fan of Walker's, but I also don't think that he's entirely to blame, either.

dickallen15
01-05-2010, 05:01 PM
That's the thing though, he probably does belong out there and was in line to play RF for teh D-backs until he got hurt and then eventually traded. The only reason he didn't start in RF here was because the Sox had Dye.

There should be no reason at all (unless he's hurt) that he can't play the position because he's more than capable of it.



Why is it optimistic to assume something might happen that is entirely possible, if not likely, to happen? Nobody is going to be asked to anything above their capabilities.

It's not a stretch to think Quentin can play RF, or Beckham can play 2B, or for Teahen to play third...especially since Teahen isn't going ot be moved all over the damn field like he had been.

It's not optimism...it's completely realistic.

The Teahan argument is weak. He has played a lot of 3B and while he has been moved around, its not like he plays every position every year. When he became the exclusive 3B last year he was horrid, despite a lot of experience there. I don't know why he suddenly is going to be good. If you look at his career, its not as if he came to the park wondering what position he would play that day very much.

Daver
01-05-2010, 05:12 PM
What's even more amuzing is your ability to read minds. I'm still not a big fan of Walker's, but I also don't think that he's entirely to blame, either.

It's almost as good as you insisting your opinion is fact, that's amusing too.

guillensdisciple
01-05-2010, 05:22 PM
Did I actually need to put that in teal for you?

The overarching point I was making to guillendisciple is that it shouldn't be taken as a given that Beckham and Quentin will ascend into stardom.


While it is not a given, why should the assumption be that they will regress instead of do better. Don't rookies who perform well their first year have a tendency to perform better the following years, or do superstars climb out of gutters to perform well? Also, assuming his health (and I see your point here, because it is an assumption) why should I not expect Quentin to post all- star numbers.

I am assuming the best case scenarios here, while you are assuming the worst. Either one could be wrong, but why choose to go the negative way when the season has not even started yet. They are healthy now, they are potential all-stars when healthy, so why should I assume they will fail when they are healthy?

asindc
01-05-2010, 05:52 PM
As usual, we will agree to disagree, the White Sox outfield is going to get run on by anyone with even average speed, and an infield that has a below average third baseman, an erratic SS, less than a rookie at second, and a decent first baseman. Suffice it to say I hope most grounders get hit towards the mound, most of the pitchers are decent fielders.

Daver,

You have made your belief that the 2010 Sox will be a poor defensive team your mantra this offseason. Well, tell us what you think either should have been done or should yet be done to improve the following positions:

P: Take the whole rotation as a collective;

C: If not AJ, then who and how?

1B: PK. Who do you replace him with, and how?

2B: Beckham. What should have been done instead of moving him to 2B?

SS: Alexei. What should be done here?

3B: Teahan. Should the Sox have not signed him and done something else? (This question, of course, assumes that the Sox did not try something else before signing Teahan or is not trying something else now. Come to think of it, all these questions assume such.)

LF: Pierre. See Teahan.

CF: Rios. See Teahan and Pierre.

RF: See Teahan, Pierre, and Rios.


Comparing the 2009 Sox to the projected (so far) 2010 Sox, here is how I assess it:

P: Improved, with Peavy replacing Colon and Garcia replacing Contreras.

C: Same.

IB: Same.

2B: Improved, based on Beckham's quick adaptation last year to a position he had not played in the minors or in college.

3B: Slightly improved, based on Teahan's experience at the position, which is his most natural.

SS: Improved, based on Alexei's improved focus during the last few weeks of the season.

LF: Improved, based on Pierre's significantly better range and ball recognition.

CF: Improved, based on Rio's career track record... and the fact that he will hit well enough to play every day.

RF: Slightly better, given that TCQ is an average defender with an average arm, which makes him a slight upgrade from 2009 Dye.

Daver
01-05-2010, 06:07 PM
Daver,

You have made your belief that the 2010 Sox will be a poor defensive team your mantra this offseason. Well, tell us what you think either should have been done or should yet be done to improve the following positions:

P: Take the whole rotation as a collective;

C: If not AJ, then who and how?

1B: PK. Who do you replace him with, and how?

2B: Beckham. What should have been done instead of moving him to 2B?

SS: Alexei. What should be done here?

3B: Teahan. Should the Sox have not signed him and done something else? (This question, of course, assumes that the Sox did not try something else before signing Teahan or is not trying something else now. Come to think of it, all these questions assume such.)

LF: Pierre. See Teahan.

CF: Rios. See Teahan and Pierre.

RF: See Teahan, Pierre, and Rios.


Comparing the 2009 Sox to the projected (so far) 2010 Sox, here is how I assess it:

P: Improved, with Peavy replacing Colon and Garcia replacing Contreras.

C: Same.

IB: Same.

2B: Improved, based on Beckham's quick adaptation last year to a position he had not played in the minors or in college.

3B: Slightly improved, based on Teahan's experience at the position, which is his most natural.

SS: Improved, based on Alexei's improved focus during the last few weeks of the season.

LF: Improved, based on Pierre's significantly better range and ball recognition.

CF: Improved, based on Rio's career track record... and the fact that he will hit well enough to play every day.

RF: Slightly better, given that TCQ is an average defender with an average arm, which makes him a slight upgrade from 2009 Dye.

My opinion means nothing, I don't work for the White Sox.

asindc
01-05-2010, 08:12 PM
My opinion means nothing, I don't work for the White Sox.

Fine. Anyone else who has expressed dismay about their belief that the 2010 Sox will be worse defensively (or at least not any better) than the 2009 Sox want to tell us what the Sox should have done or should do to make the team better defensively?

Daver
01-05-2010, 08:34 PM
Fine. Anyone else who has expressed dismay about their belief that the 2010 Sox will be worse defensively (or at least not any better) than the 2009 Sox want to tell us what the Sox should have done or should do to make the team better defensively?

Just to clarify a bit, the White Sox have fielded bad defensive teams for most of the decade.

doublem23
01-05-2010, 11:44 PM
Just to clarify a bit, the White Sox have fielded bad defensive teams for most of the decade.

A decade in which they had the 9th best winning percentage in baseball.

SI1020
01-06-2010, 12:21 AM
A decade in which they had the 9th best winning percentage in baseball. In 05 when they won it all they were 4th lowest in errors in the AL. Taking everything into consideration IMO only Oakland fielded better that year. Last year they had the second highest number of errors and were just awful by almost any metric you want to use. It would be optimistic to say that they could improve that to adequate in just one year, given the personnel on the team.

TomBradley72
01-06-2010, 09:59 AM
A decade in which they had the 9th best winning percentage in baseball.

We're #9, We're #9!

We're in the top 3rd!