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View Full Version : Deal Not Final: Halladay to PHI, Lee to SEA, HOLY ****!


JermaineDye05
12-14-2009, 03:57 PM
Link (http://twitter.com/SI_jonHeyman)

Rocky Soprano
12-14-2009, 03:59 PM
Wow!

soltrain21
12-14-2009, 04:00 PM
Why would they trade Lee? That seems like a pretty lateral move.

JermaineDye05
12-14-2009, 04:01 PM
Why would they trade Lee? That seems like a pretty lateral move.

Halladay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lee

soltrain21
12-14-2009, 04:02 PM
Halladay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lee

Not quite.

Rocky Soprano
12-14-2009, 04:03 PM
Now he is saying Lee may not be the pitcher going to SEA.

soltrain21
12-14-2009, 04:04 PM
Now he is saying Lee may not be the pitcher going to SEA.

It's probably Cole Hamels.

DirtySox
12-14-2009, 04:04 PM
Wow.

I'm liking the M's aggressiveness this offseason.

DaveFeelsRight
12-14-2009, 04:05 PM
Don't like that they're giving up Lee, considering he was definitely one of their best pitchers in the playoffs; especially the world series.

JermaineDye05
12-14-2009, 04:05 PM
Either way, I can't help but smile at this (if it goes down).

Jog on, Yankees and Sawx.

oeo
12-14-2009, 04:06 PM
Not quite.

Halladay at least has a lengthy track record, especially compared to Lee's which consists of only two really good years. He's going to be mighty good in the NL.

At least the Yankees and Red Sox are not involved. Mariners are shaping up to be a tough team.

JermaineDye05
12-14-2009, 04:07 PM
Don't like that their giving up Lee, considering he was definitely one of their best pitchers in the playoffs; especially the world series.

Halladay is so much better. Just imagine how good he'll be in the NL.

RedHeadPaleHoser
12-14-2009, 04:07 PM
Seattle is definitely showing they're interested in winning a division next year.

PaleHoser
12-14-2009, 04:07 PM
Why would they trade Lee? That seems like a pretty lateral move.

I've read Phillies have tried to extend Cliff Lee and he's not interested.

If the Phillies can sign Halladay to an extension this trade is a no brainer, even if Cliff Lee is the one to go.

Jim Shorts
12-14-2009, 04:08 PM
I've read Phillies have tried to extend Cliff Lee and he's not interested.

Not interested in giving Phila a discount.

pythons007
12-14-2009, 04:09 PM
What is Toronto going to get in the deal?

LoveYourSuit
12-14-2009, 04:10 PM
Roy > Cliff.


Hell of a move for Phil.

Foulke You
12-14-2009, 04:12 PM
What is Toronto going to get in the deal?
A guaranteed 5th place finish. :tongue:

DirtySox
12-14-2009, 04:14 PM
What is Toronto going to get in the deal?

Hopefully oodles of prospects. They need them. I hope they get Drabek.

dickallen15
12-14-2009, 04:16 PM
Jon Heyman is reporting Halladay to Philadelphia, Cliff Lee to Seattle, prospects to Toronto. Not done yet, but supposedly players agreed upon just awaiting Halladay signing an extension.

LoveYourSuit
12-14-2009, 04:16 PM
When do the Blue Jays move out of Toronto and into the states?


Talk about a crappy franchise.

DirtySox
12-14-2009, 04:17 PM
Thread in the What's the Score.

chisox616
12-14-2009, 04:19 PM
You really can't blame Toronto for trading Halladay though. He specifically said he was not going to sign an extension with them, and he was not going to allow them to trade him midseason.

That's crazy that they actually pulled it off, I seriously thought they would be get worse than what the Twins received for Santana. I'm excited to see who they got.

soxinem1
12-14-2009, 04:24 PM
MLB Trade Rumors and MLB Network both say Halladay has scheduled a physical with PHI, and that the Phills are negotiating an extension with Halladay's agent.

Supposedly TOR gets six or seven players from SEA and Philly combined.

ClLee, while very solid, is more than expendable for Halladay. Big Roy has a better track record by far, and Lee has been a little iffy when talking extension, so he might cost as much or more at this time next year, depending on the 2010 season he has.

It is noted though that they may have jumped the gun on ClLee going to the M's, that Cole Hammels may be the other LH.

doublem23
12-14-2009, 04:24 PM
According to SI, the Blue Jays, Phillies, and Mariners have agreed to a 3-team-deal that sends Roy Halladay to Philadelphia and Cliff Lee to Seattle.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/12/14/phillies.halladay.lee/index.html?eref=BrkNews

DSpivack
12-14-2009, 04:25 PM
Wts?

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-14-2009, 04:26 PM
Good for the Phils. Hopefully they get him extended.

skobabe8
12-14-2009, 04:26 PM
Why trade Lee? Contract issues?

doublem23
12-14-2009, 04:27 PM
Why trade Lee? Contract issues?

Lee's an FA after 2010 so probably.

VMSNS
12-14-2009, 04:42 PM
Wow. King Felix and Cliff Lee in the same rotation. :o:

I'm really liking what Seattle is up to.

soxinem1
12-14-2009, 04:44 PM
Wow. King Felix and Cliff Lee in the same rotation. :o:

I'm really liking what Seattle is up to.

Maybe, but they need a better line up.

Metalthrasher442
12-14-2009, 05:00 PM
Maybe, but they need a better line up.

I agree, but maybe Ichiro will be getting some chances to win a ring down the line. He more deserves. One of the greatest hitters of our generation and he's not talked about nearly as much as Pujols or any of those guys.

DirtySox
12-14-2009, 05:06 PM
Both Aumont and Taylor are headed to Toronto so far.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
12-14-2009, 05:42 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4742072

Phillies get Halladay and are expected to ship Cliff Lee to Seattle. Other specifics are unknown.

Well, I can see why they would trade Lee since he's going to be a FA...but Lee was untouchable ever since he put on a Phillies jersey. Let's see how the move back to the AL affects him.

I'm thinking Seattle and Philly give up prospects to Toronto to complete the trade.

DirtySox
12-14-2009, 05:43 PM
Supposedly Michael Saunders, and Tyson Gillies are going to the Jays as well.

Interestingly, all the prospects from the M's (Aumont/Gillies/Saunders) are Canadians. Kinda cool.

KMcMahon817
12-14-2009, 05:44 PM
Halladay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lee

I disagree heavily.

JermaineDye05
12-14-2009, 05:46 PM
I disagree heavily.

Are you a baseball GM?

MtGrnwdSoxFan
12-14-2009, 05:47 PM
Wow, my fault...didn't see the thread at WTS. Delete, please.

tstrike2000
12-14-2009, 05:48 PM
Toronto throwing in the white flag I guess.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
12-14-2009, 05:51 PM
I figured PHI would have traded some of their better prospects and made a run for it in 2010 with Halladay, Lee, and Hamels leading the charge.

Not a bad rotation, but now it appears Seattle is tired of being afterthoughts and wants to win now. Lee and Hernandez is a great 1-2 punch.

KRS1
12-14-2009, 05:56 PM
I disagree heavily.


A agree with him completely. Look at what Lee did before 08', he was mediocre as it gets. Two good seasons in a row is nice, but he nowhere in the solar system of Halladay when it comes to dominance when healthy. Just one example of the dominance difference, Cliff has exactly two years with less hits given up than IP in 200+ innings thrown, Roy has five. Forget the numbers and just look at stuff and Halladay wins that one hands down. Roy is as dominant as anyone when his stuff is on, and that's the case much more often than not.

chunk
12-14-2009, 05:56 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4742072

Phillies get Halladay and are expected to ship Cliff Lee to Seattle. Other specifics are unknown.

Well, I can see why they would trade Lee since he's going to be a FA...but Lee was untouchable ever since he put on a Phillies jersey. Let's see how the move back to the AL affects him.

I'm thinking Seattle and Philly give up prospects to Toronto to complete the trade.

Lee will have the game's best defense behind him. He'll be fine.

If you look at this as Lee(the prospects it took to acquire Lee) + the prospects now, man the Phillies are giving up a ton.

Pablo_Honey
12-14-2009, 05:57 PM
As long as Halladay stays out of American League, especially not with the Yankees or Red Sox, I'm happy. Still, the supposed return from Mariners is a little weak. I was expecting Triunfel in the deal since the Jays seem to have been wanting a shortstop prospect for a while. Oh well, I hope the Jays get some better prospects from Phillies so that we can finally see a postseason without the Yankees and Red Sox. Bad news is that we are gonna have to face Lee again, which means we are basically SOL if we are facing Seattle.

DSpivack
12-14-2009, 05:57 PM
Supposedly Michael Saunders, and Tyson Gillies are going to the Jays as well.

Interestingly, all the prospects from the M's (Aumont/Gillies/Saunders) are Canadians. Kinda cool.

That's a bit much if Lee is a one-year rental, no? Who did the Phillies give up? Nice deal for them if they're giving up comparatively less than Seattle, while getting the better pitcher whose contract they can extend.

Sargeant79
12-14-2009, 05:59 PM
As long as Halladay stays out of American League, especially not with the Yankees or Red Sox, I'm happy. Still, the supposed return from Mariners is a little weak. I hope the Jays get some better prospects from Phillies so that they can finally see a postseason without the Yankees and Red Sox. Bad news is that we are gonna have to face Lee again, which means we are basically SOL if we are facing Seattle.

IIRC, we have been one of the only teams that has been able to actually get to Lee over the last couple years.

DirtySox
12-14-2009, 06:00 PM
That's a bit much if Lee is a one-year rental, no? Who did the Phillies give up? Nice deal for them if they're giving up comparatively less than Seattle while getting the better pitcher whose contract they can extend.

Dunno.

Nothing is official yet. But even if he is a one year rental, they will definitely be offering him arbitration thus netting some draft picks which has to be taken into consideration.

KMcMahon817
12-14-2009, 06:01 PM
Are you a baseball GM?

Are you?

You made the assertion that Halladay and Lee are not in the same class of pitchers, and that's wrong. Halladay may edge Cliff out by a little bit, but he's older, and probably will cost more than Lee in the future.

Not to mention, the Phils gave up their #2 prospect and top non-pitching prospect in their farm system. The trade just seems like a wash to me. On top of all of that, Halladay makes about 10 million more than Lee does this season.

Trading for Halladay will improve any pitching staff, but giving up Lee and your best prospect for Halladay just doesn't make a ton of sense to me. Unless, as previously stated, the Phils dont think they can get a deal together with Lee by the end of next year, then the deal makes more sense.
But, you're right I am not a GM, but nor are you.

DirtySox
12-14-2009, 06:06 PM
Travis D'Arnaud is supposedly in the deal somewhere as well.

KMcMahon817
12-14-2009, 06:10 PM
Lee will have the game's best defense behind him. He'll be fine.

If you look at this as Lee(the prospects it took to acquire Lee) + the prospects now, man the Phillies are giving up a ton.

That's another thing to think about:

Carlos Carrasco, Jason Knapp, Lou Marson, and Jason Donald to the Indians, plus Cliff Lee to the Mariners and probably Michael Taylor to the Blue Jays for Halladay.

That's pretty darn spendy.

JermaineDye05
12-14-2009, 06:39 PM
Are you?

You made the assertion that Halladay and Lee are not in the same class of pitchers, and that's wrong. Halladay may edge Cliff out by a little bit, but he's older, and probably will cost more than Lee in the future.

Not to mention, the Phils gave up their #2 prospect and top non-pitching prospect in their farm system. The trade just seems like a wash to me. On top of all of that, Halladay makes about 10 million more than Lee does this season.

Trading for Halladay will improve any pitching staff, but giving up Lee and your best prospect for Halladay just doesn't make a ton of sense to me. Unless, as previously stated, the Phils dont think they can get a deal together with Lee by the end of next year, then the deal makes more sense.
But, you're right I am not a GM, but nor are you.

I'm not a GM but I can tell which of these two is the better pitchers.

In the past 4 seasons :

Cliff Lee has gone 55-35 with a 5.39 ERA 546/171 K/BB and a 1.282 WHIP

Roy Halladay has gone 69-33 with a 3.10 ERA 685/156 BB and a 1.129 WHIP

Now granted, Cliff was hurt in one of those seasons so if we were to throw out that season as an anomaly and go back yet another season, his record would look like

68-32 with a 3.45 ERA 623/187 K/BB and a 1.240 WHIP

Either way, Roy appears to be the better of the two by a pretty good margin. Halladay may be older but only by a year. Another thing to consider: Cliff Lee has only once had a full season with an ERA below 3. Roy Halladay has done that 3 times (2 of those times in the past 2 seasons). Halladay has never had an ERA over 4 for a full season (unless you count 2004 where he had an ERA at 4.20 in 19 GS). Lee has done that twice (one of those years with an ERA over 5).

KMcMahon817
12-14-2009, 07:17 PM
I'm not a GM but I can tell which of these two is the better pitchers.

In the past 4 seasons :

Cliff Lee has gone 55-35 with a 5.39 ERA 546/171 K/BB and a 1.282 WHIP

Roy Halladay has gone 69-33 with a 3.10 ERA 685/156 BB and a 1.129 WHIP

Now granted, Cliff was hurt in one of those seasons so if we were to throw out that season as an anomaly and go back yet another season, his record would look like

68-32 with a 3.45 ERA 623/187 K/BB and a 1.240 WHIP

Either way, Roy appears to be the better of the two by a pretty good margin. Halladay may be older but only by a year. Another thing to consider: Cliff Lee has only once had a full season with an ERA below 3. Roy Halladay has done that 3 times (2 of those times in the past 2 seasons). Halladay has never had an ERA over 4 for a full season (unless you count 2004 where he had an ERA at 4.20 in 19 GS). Lee has done that twice (one of those years with an ERA over 5).

I never disagreed with that, but you're just looking at pitcher for pitcher statistics. There's a lot more that goes into this deal and looking at the big picture, I don't think the Phillies got the best deal if this all goes down.

Either way, good for the Phillies, I am happy Halladay is out of the AL.

JermaineDye05
12-14-2009, 07:37 PM
I never disagreed with that, but you're just looking at pitcher for pitcher statistics. There's a lot more that goes into this deal and looking at the big picture, I don't think the Phillies got the best deal if this all goes down.

Either way, good for the Phillies, I am happy Halladay is out of the AL.

Well, you did say that you disagreed "heavily" with my assertion that Roy Halladay > Cliff Lee.

Now, I may have embellished a little with my use of ">"'s, however my point was simply that Roy Halladay was the better pitcher of the two by a pretty good margin. I'm not arguing whether this is a good move for the Phillies or not. In the long run it may turn out to be bad, but right now they look like the team to beat in the NL once again.

DirtySox
12-14-2009, 07:59 PM
The players involved keep changing. Supposedly Aumont isn't part of the deal, but Blanton and Happ could be in it.

DirtySox
12-14-2009, 08:06 PM
Now Drabek might be in the deal, which would be huge for the Jays.

http://twitter.com/JSalisburyCSN/status/6679492263

cws05champ
12-14-2009, 08:12 PM
Now Drabek might be in the deal, which would be huge for the Jays.

http://twitter.com/JSalisburyCSN/status/6679492263

This deal just got much worse for the Phillies if true. The Phillies are giving up a top 15 pitcher in the game to get a top 5 pitcher. They shouldn't be giving up their top pitching and hitting prospect as well.

DirtySox
12-14-2009, 08:16 PM
Add another possible name to the list. Triunfel might be involved.

Trades are fun!

http://twitter.com/JonathanMayoB3/status/6679569130

tm1119
12-14-2009, 08:18 PM
Ive never seen so many different rumors about 1 trade. Now its coming out that both Blanton and Happ took physicals today and could be involved somehow. This is 1 that we are just going to wait and see, and then judge when its finally official. And from what Im reading that could be 2 to 3 more days.

DirtySox
12-14-2009, 08:23 PM
Aumont, Gillies, Triunfel, Saunders, Morrow, D'Arnaud, Happ, Blanton, Brown, Taylor, Drabek.

There is the list of players mentioned thus far. I hope the Jays end up with at least Drabek or Brown from Philly.

veeter
12-14-2009, 08:27 PM
I like the way Philly's GM works.

DirtySox
12-14-2009, 08:56 PM
Drabek in, Aumont not.

http://twitter.com/elliottbaseball/status/6681144488

DirtySox
12-14-2009, 09:30 PM
Aumont in, but to Philly. This is fun.

http://twitter.com/elliottbaseball/status/6682312434

DirtySox
12-14-2009, 10:21 PM
Latest update has Toronto getting Taylor, D'Arnaud, and either Drabek or Happ from Philly.

Philadelphia would receive Halladay, Aumont and another prospect from Seattle, probably Gillies.

The M's would only be getting Lee.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4742072

That is a nice haul for the Jays if true.

KMcMahon817
12-14-2009, 10:26 PM
Latest update has Toronto getting Taylor, D'Arnaud, and either Drabek or Happ from Philly.

Philadelphia would receive Halladay, Aumont and another prospect from Seattle, probably Gillies.

The M's would only be getting Lee.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4742072

That is a nice haul for the Jays if true.

That's a little ridiculous. I am convinced that Amaro is not all there if he gives up Lee AND Drabek/Happ AND Taylor. There is only one player in baseball that is worth that, plus all the prospects they gave up for Lee and his name is Albert Pujols.

cws05champ
12-14-2009, 10:44 PM
That's a little ridiculous. I am convinced that Amaro is not all there if he gives up Lee AND Drabek/Happ AND Taylor. There is only one player in baseball that is worth that, plus all the prospects they gave up for Lee and his name is Albert Pujols.
Agreed, I don't think anyone has a clue what the final deal will be. In my mind if the Phillies were giving up Taylor/Drabek in the deal, they really shouldn't be giving up Lee as well. It just wouldn't make sense to get the M's involved. Just extend Halladay, go for it next year with Roy and Cliff, and let Lee walk and get the draft picks after next season.

DirtySox
12-14-2009, 10:56 PM
Agreed, I don't think anyone has a clue what the final deal will be. In my mind if the Phillies were giving up Taylor/Drabek in the deal, they really shouldn't be giving up Lee as well. It just wouldn't make sense to get the M's involved. Just extend Halladay, go for it next year with Roy and Cliff, and let Lee walk and get the draft picks after next season.

Agreed. Getting Cliff Lee for Aumont and Gillies is a steal for the M's if that's how it shakes out. They would even recoup two draft picks at the end of the season by offering him arbitration and him walking away. I'm amused watching this whole thing unfold.

pythons007
12-15-2009, 10:18 AM
Looks like Halladay has agreed to a deal with Philly. Set the three way deal in motion!

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4744730

skobabe8
12-15-2009, 10:43 AM
Looks like Halladay has agreed to a deal with Philly. Set the three way deal in motion!

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4744730

Stop trying to break basbeball news and get back to work.

soxinem1
12-15-2009, 10:45 AM
Agreed. Getting Cliff Lee for Aumont and Gillies is a steal for the M's if that's how it shakes out. They would even recoup two draft picks at the end of the season by offering him arbitration and him walking away. I'm amused watching this whole thing unfold.

PHI does get $6 million in the deal too, but they extended Halladay for 3 yr/$60 million with two vesting options.

It also looks like TOR gets drabek, who could be in their rotation by 2010 seasons end.

But I agree with you, SEA might just be the one who makes out the best in the long run.

BadBobbyJenks
12-15-2009, 07:00 PM
Wow I just don't get it at all for the Phillies. You went and got Lee last year because you didn't want to trade Drabeck so now you deal Lee and Drabeck for Halladay? It is an upgrade, but not an upgrade worth losing your best pitching prospect over.

Great trade for Toronto and the Mariners.

TheVulture
12-16-2009, 02:47 AM
Look at what Lee did before 08', he was mediocre as it gets.

Mediocre is out of baseball after a couple years of getting beaten to a pulp.

KRS1
12-16-2009, 04:21 AM
Mediocre is out of baseball after a couple years of getting beaten to a pulp.

As far as defining pretty indefinable things, this definition is not even close. Mediocre is pretty much every fifth starter in the league and a good bunch of #4s. Plenty of mediocre pitchers stick around in some way or another. Cliff Lee was mediocre as all hell before 08' with the exclusion of one good season in 05'.