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Rockabilly
12-12-2009, 04:02 PM
I'm hoping that KW picks up a another starter. If its Wang, Bedard, Davis or anyone cheap.

I have a feeling Garcia won't be fully healthy and don't want to run into the same problems we did this past season with Contreras and Colon.

Never can have to much pitching

DirtySox
12-12-2009, 04:04 PM
I'd imagine Hudson is the 5th starter insurance.

Crede24Thome25
12-12-2009, 04:05 PM
I'm hoping that KW picks up a another starter. If its Wang, Bedard, Davis or anyone cheap.

I have a feeling Garcia won't be fully healthy and don't want to run into the same problems we did this past season with Contreras and Colon.

Never can have to much pitching

I was just thinking the same thing, would love to give Wang a try.

Rockabilly
12-12-2009, 04:06 PM
I'd imagine Hudson is the 5th starter insurance.


I like to keep Hudson in the pen at least for the 1st half of the season.

LoveYourSuit
12-12-2009, 04:35 PM
Starting pitching is the least of my concerns. We need offensive help badly.

If Garcia bombs, Hudson's turn comes up.

KRS1
12-12-2009, 04:54 PM
I like to keep Hudson in the pen at least for the 1st half of the season.

I'd rather keep him stretched out and ready if needed or forced (as in, he pitches too well not to join the rotation).

I'm not a fan of going in with Sweaty Freddy, though, and there NEEDS to be some legit competition for that spot brought in if they aren't ready to give Hudson the job. I think Freddy would make a pretty nice long man in the pen, so it will be interesting to see if Dan can win the role outright and push him to that role.

mpshans
12-12-2009, 06:01 PM
that both kenny and ozzie have been real clear that freddy has the 5th spot. i agree with the whole idea of never having too much pitching, but on the other hand 1-4 is solid and not very many teams can say that. kenny does like to keep it quiet until a deal is done, but it just does not sound like they are going to do anything about this right now.

man it has been a while since i posted

WhiteSoxOnly
12-12-2009, 06:52 PM
Starting pitching is the least of my concerns. We need offensive help badly.

If Garcia bombs, Hudson's turn comes up.

This works.Freddie earned the spot based on how he finished
down the stretch last year.Good Lord,if we can get a consistent
6 innings from him we're gonna be there all the way.Ozzie just
needs to remember this.No need to put him back out there past
the 6th period.And if he falters early and can't get his stuff
together,then Hudson gets a crack at it.

Lip Man 1
12-12-2009, 07:59 PM
I am very concerned over the Sox putting their trust in a guy who basically hasn't pitched much in two years.

My thoughts on how important a 5th starter can be are well documented (especially given the laughable attempts by the Sox to find someone in 1996 and the early part of the 2000 decade)...however with money supposedly tight according to Kenny there are more pressing needs right now that have to be solved first.

Lip

LoveYourSuit
12-12-2009, 08:34 PM
I am very concerned over the Sox putting their trust in a guy who basically hasn't pitched much in two years.

My thoughts on how important a 5th starter can be are well documented (especially given the laughable attempts by the Sox to find someone in 1996 and the early part of the 2000 decade)...however with money supposedly tight according to Kenny there are more pressing needs right now that have to be solved first.

Lip


Lip I think that 5th starter arguement has lost a bit of it's juice being that year in and year out teams win with 4 starters and in some cases 3 like the Yankees last season. Then look at the Cardinals in 2006.

With the strength of the top 4 we have, you can live with a guy like Freddy every 5th day. Our current rotation situation pales in comparison to 1996 and the 2000s.

Also I will add, 2005 we had a bit of instability at the #5 because El Duque barely gave us anything there. Hudson can become what McCarthy was to us in 2005.

tm1119
12-12-2009, 08:41 PM
I pretty much have no confidence in Freddy. I would honestly be surprised if he made it to 80 innings pitched. Not only are injuries a huge concern, but so is overall effectiveness. We need to bring in a vet, but that vet will most likely also have to accept a minor league deal as well so it will be tough. I wouldnt mind seeing Rich Hill brought in on a minor league deal, or at worst case an Eric Milton/Rodrigo Lopez type that could maybe between the 2 of them give us 10 decent starts.

Pablo_Honey
12-12-2009, 08:54 PM
I pretty much have no confidence in Freddy. I would honestly be surprised if he made it to 80 innings pitched. Not only are injuries a huge concern, but so is overall effectiveness. We need to bring in a vet, but that vet will most likely also have to accept a minor league deal as well so it will be tough. I wouldnt mind seeing Rich Hill brought in on a minor league deal, or at worst case an Eric Milton/Rodrigo Lopez type that could maybe between the 2 of them give us 10 decent starts.
:ozzie
"Who is Hill?"

In all seriousness, Hill would be a nice low-risk-high-reward project in the minors but if he's starting for us at any point in 2010, he better have flat-out dominated AAA. Hill might not sign with us though, given the fact Ozzie's still here and AJ might give him hell if he's with the big club. Also, I think 5th starter is the least of our worries right now. Who cares if Freddy's arm gives out midseason? We still have Hudson to step up and if he can't get it done, there will be pitchers who can fill in the role available a la Freddy Garcia in 2009.

JB98
12-12-2009, 08:59 PM
The Sox can't hit a lick.

Whatever money is left needs to be used to address the offense.

cws05champ
12-12-2009, 09:08 PM
I pretty much have no confidence in Freddy. I would honestly be surprised if he made it to 80 innings pitched. Not only are injuries a huge concern, but so is overall effectiveness. We need to bring in a vet, but that vet will most likely also have to accept a minor league deal as well so it will be tough. I wouldnt mind seeing Rich Hill brought in on a minor league deal, or at worst case an Eric Milton/Rodrigo Lopez type that could maybe between the 2 of them give us 10 decent starts.
You don't have confidence in Freddy but you want to bring in Rich Hill, Eric Milton or Rodrigo Lopez?

I agree that Freddy is an injury risk but we need to give him a shot, especially the way the threw down the stretch. Out of 9 starts he went at least 6 IP in 8 of the 9 starts( the one he didn't was his 1st start). If you look at those 8 starts where he went at least 6 inn here are his earned runs: 3, 3, 1, 2, 3, 2, 7,1. He a stinker in there which made his ERA jump 3/4 run, but I don't think you can ask for more than that from your #5.

Hudson showed that he may be capable to jump into the mix if Freddy goes down too. I agree that you can't have too much pitching, but the guys have to want to come here too. If FA Pitchers look at the current Sox rotation, I'm not sure they would be thrilled with a chance they may have to start in AAA.

Corlose 15
12-12-2009, 09:11 PM
With the 5th starter situation the way it is now with Garcia starting and Hudson there to back him up, nobody of value is going to want to come to the Sox. So, anybody they get won't be anymore of a sure thing than Freddy is.

Also, KW and Ozzie have both said that Freddy needs to come into camp in shape and they feel that he is taking the proper steps to do so. I think it's a matter of him finally being healthy again after an injury and he's going to take this offseason to get into better shape and be a real solid 5th starter for this team.

I like having his veteran presence at the end of the rotation, he's still got workable stuff, and flat out knows how to pitch.

Thatguyoverthere
12-12-2009, 09:12 PM
So money is tight and you want to spend it on our least pressing need? :scratch: We already have a solid couple options at #5 (where you don't need much), and until we get an OF and a DH and possibly another bullpen arm then KW shouldn't even bother with this.

tm1119
12-12-2009, 09:36 PM
You don't have confidence in Freddy but you want to bring in Rich Hill, Eric Milton or Rodrigo Lopez?

I agree that Freddy is an injury risk but we need to give him a shot, especially the way the threw down the stretch. Out of 9 starts he went at least 6 IP in 8 of the 9 starts( the one he didn't was his 1st start). If you look at those 8 starts where he went at least 6 inn here are his earned runs: 3, 3, 1, 2, 3, 2, 7,1. He a stinker in there which made his ERA jump 3/4 run, but I don't think you can ask for more than that from your #5.

Hudson showed that he may be capable to jump into the mix if Freddy goes down too. I agree that you can't have too much pitching, but the guys have to want to come here too. If FA Pitchers look at the current Sox rotation, I'm not sure they would be thrilled with a chance they may have to start in AAA.

Im not going to bank on 9 meaningless starts at the end of the season from a guy who was pitching to save his career. Freddy has been inconsistent at best since he killed his arm for us in '05.
And I know Hudson is waiting in the wings, but I just dont want him to be jerked around between starting and pitching in the pen. If he starts out in the bigs and is pitching out of the pen then I think we should keep him there. Which is why I would love to see Linebrink traded for pretty much anything to open up a spot for Hudson on the big league roster. As of right now he is most likely in AAA to start the season.
Yes, guys like Lopez and Milton suck more than Freddy, but we need some kind of backup option. Those are the kind of guys that could potentially eat up some innings without killing the rest of our staff.

Tragg
12-12-2009, 09:40 PM
We have Freddy, and if he falters Hudson and Torres both pitched pretty well as starters.
We have more pressing needs, especially as money's tight.

Rdy2PlayBall
12-12-2009, 09:52 PM
Nononono. Our pitching staff is done. Hudson can be a back up... I don't see it being needed though. If Garcia can produce what a normal #5 pitcher does, then were all set. He doesn't have to pitch like he used to for him to be a good pitcher for this team.

We need to spend the rest of our cash on the offense.

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-13-2009, 01:45 AM
I'd agree with this, except the Sox need to address the offense/OF first. Garcia should be fine, IMO. I do fear what happens to the rotation if 1 or more of our guys go down. Hudson should be decent, but I don't like Torres, and we got nothing after him. Hopefully the Sox can go out and sign a few decent minor league starters to step in if needed.

Noneck
12-13-2009, 01:51 AM
When a team lets a guy go for chump change, that pitched well as mop up and could give you some spot starts, forget about getting another veteran 5th starter.

JB98
12-13-2009, 01:54 AM
I'd agree with this, except the Sox need to address the offense/OF first. Garcia should be fine, IMO. I do fear what happens to the rotation if 1 or more of our guys go down. Hudson should be decent, but I don't like Torres, and we got nothing after him. Hopefully the Sox can go out and sign a few decent minor league starters to step in if needed.

If more than one of our guys go down, we're screwed. That's true of the Sox and pretty much every other team in baseball.

I think Garcia will be fine as a No. 5 starter. Hudson is the backup plan. I'm confident that no further acquisitions need to be made for the starting rotation.

oeo
12-13-2009, 01:57 AM
I pretty much have no confidence in Freddy. I would honestly be surprised if he made it to 80 innings pitched. Not only are injuries a huge concern, but so is overall effectiveness. We need to bring in a vet, but that vet will most likely also have to accept a minor league deal as well so it will be tough. I wouldnt mind seeing Rich Hill brought in on a minor league deal, or at worst case an Eric Milton/Rodrigo Lopez type that could maybe between the 2 of them give us 10 decent starts.

These ideas are worse than your Jack Cust one.

Garcia's effectiveness will be fine, he showed that in the latter part of 2009. It's just a matter of keeping him healthy. I don't think he's going to last all year, but that's why it's nice to have someone like Hudson waiting. The situation is very similar to 2005 with El Duque, and McCarthy waiting, who made some big spot starts late in the year.

PaleHoser
12-13-2009, 05:59 AM
I certainly feel a lot better with Sweaty Freddy as my #5 than Fat Bart.

Freddy knows how to pitch. He won't dominate like he did when he was younger and injury-free, but he has adapted and will give the Sox a chance to win every time he takes the ball.

Any remaining budget needs to go toward a run producer and/or a lead-off man.

skobabe8
12-13-2009, 11:45 AM
that both kenny and ozzie have been real clear that freddy has the 5th spot. i agree with the whole idea of never having too much pitching, but on the other hand 1-4 is solid and not very many teams can say that. kenny does like to keep it quiet until a deal is done, but it just does not sound like they are going to do anything about this right now.

man it has been a while since i posted

When you average 7 posts per year, I definately listen to what you have to say, cuz its GOTTA be important.

:D:

soxinem1
12-13-2009, 12:07 PM
Lip I think that 5th starter arguement has lost a bit of it's juice being that year in and year out teams win with 4 starters and in some cases 3 like the Yankees last season. Then look at the Cardinals in 2006.

With the strength of the top 4 we have, you can live with a guy like Freddy every 5th day. Our current rotation situation pales in comparison to 1996 and the 2000s.

Also I will add, 2005 we had a bit of instability at the #5 because El Duque barely gave us anything there. Hudson can become what McCarthy was to us in 2005.

I'd have to side with Lip on this one. Depending on a nearly 35 year-old guy with very diminished stuff who has thrown barely over 120 IP the last three seasons combined is not better than relying on Colon and Contreras going in to this season.

Plus, you are only an injury away from this so-called depth being challenged.

Regardding 2005, El Duque began as the number four starter, and pitched so well in the beginning the NYY were calling KW wanting him back. True he fell apart as the season wore on, but Guillen only used six starting pitchers total in 2005, not the usual potpouree of six or seven guys a year that have been used in the #5 spot for most of the past 15 seasons.

Pablo_Honey
12-13-2009, 12:34 PM
I'd have to side with Lip on this one. Depending on a nearly 35 year-old guy with very diminished stuff who has thrown barely over 120 IP the last three seasons combined is not better than relying on Colon and Contreras going in to this season.
We were going into season with Jose as our 4th AND Bart as 5th. One of them was recovering from a ruptured his achilles tendon and the other one pitched around 200 innings over 3 years which is only 60 more innings than Freddy did, rather small difference. That is far worse than having Freddy to pitch after the Big 4. If our 5th starter is the only question mark on the starting rotation, that's GOOD.

Plus, you are only an injury away from this so-called depth being challenged.
True, but same can be said for ANY MLB teams right now, regardless of pitching depth. You always go into the season with the expectation your best players will remain healthy. You could make a case for guys like Peavy who has a bit of history of injury but at the end of the day, you send him out there and hope for the best.

Corlose 15
12-13-2009, 12:45 PM
It doesn't make sense to pile up 8 journeymen pitchers behind Freddy, and Hudson just in case Freddy is hurt and Hudson is ineffective. The Sox have better ways to spend their time and money.

Also, just because Garcia has been hurt doesn't mean that he'll break down this year, it's entirely possible that it has simply taken him two years to get over his shoulder injury. I remember an article later in the season from Merkin or somebody talking to Freddy and him saying his shoulder hasn't felt this good in two years.

Thatguyoverthere
12-13-2009, 01:09 PM
We were going into season with Jose as our 4th AND Bart as 5th. One of them was recovering from a ruptured his achilles tendon and the other one pitched around 200 innings over 3 years which is only 60 more innings than Freddy did, rather small difference. That is far worse than having Freddy to pitch after the Big 4. If our 5th starter is the only question mark on the starting rotation, that's GOOD.


True, but same can be said for ANY MLB teams right now, regardless of pitching depth. You always go into the season with the expectation your best players will remain healthy. You could make a case for guys like Peavy who has a bit of history of injury but at the end of the day, you send him out there and hope for the best.QFE. We very might well have the BEST starting rotation in all of baseball, and some of you want to spend what little money is left on a very small upgrade when we currently have no offense to speak of? :?: Talking about injuries is ridiculous, because the Cardinals, Giants, Red Sox, Yankees, and Braves are also "one or more injuries" away from having their rotations become immediately suspect too. If KW spends money on Eric ****ing Milton (:rolleyes: who wouldn't even upgrade our rotation) before getting a bat, Sox fans will be livid, and justifiably so.

NLaloosh
12-13-2009, 02:43 PM
Not at all worried about the starting rotation. Not that it's impossible for anything to go wrong but this is the best position the Sox have been in with their rotation for as long as I can remember.

The Sox need a leadoff man. They've made it clear that is what they want. If not, then they need a masher in the OF or DH.

There doesn't appear to be a ton of possibilities out there.

JB98
12-13-2009, 04:53 PM
I'd have to side with Lip on this one. Depending on a nearly 35 year-old guy with very diminished stuff who has thrown barely over 120 IP the last three seasons combined is not better than relying on Colon and Contreras going in to this season.

Plus, you are only an injury away from this so-called depth being challenged.

Regardding 2005, El Duque began as the number four starter, and pitched so well in the beginning the NYY were calling KW wanting him back. True he fell apart as the season wore on, but Guillen only used six starting pitchers total in 2005, not the usual potpouree of six or seven guys a year that have been used in the #5 spot for most of the past 15 seasons.

They're not depending on him, though. They have a major-league ready youngster in Hudson waiting in the wings if Garcia falters.

Here's what it comes down to, guys and gals: If our top four are all healthy, we've got an excellent rotation. If a couple of those top four go down, we are in trouble. However, that statement applies to nearly every team in MLB, so it's not worth worrying about.

It doesn't make sense for KW to sign a bunch of turds like Rodrigo Lopez and Eric Milton, because that wouldn't change the situation at all. Regardless, we need those top four healthy and effective.