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View Full Version : Does Kenny Williams know what he's doing?


NLaloosh
12-11-2009, 03:00 PM
Apparently, tomorrow, both Jeremy Reed and Brian Anderson will be non-tendered.

Wow!

Factor in the decline of Chris Young and one would have to give Kenny a lot of credit. This guy is good at what he does.

Go Sox in 2010!

veeter
12-11-2009, 03:09 PM
Yes

DonnieDarko
12-11-2009, 03:11 PM
On the flipside, do you really want your GM to get the reputation of a GM who does nothing but pump up prospects who will fail, or at the most fall far short of their expectations? I sure don't.

veeter
12-11-2009, 03:12 PM
On the flipside, do you really want your GM to get the reputation of a GM who does nothing but pump up prospects who will fail, or at the most fall far short of their expectations? I sure don't.Buyer beware.

DonnieDarko
12-11-2009, 03:13 PM
Buyer beware.

That's the thing though: buyers will eventually start to beware if he does nothing but pump up and trade away failed prospects.

russ99
12-11-2009, 03:17 PM
That's the thing though: buyers will eventually start to beware if he does nothing but pump up and trade away failed prospects.

I don't see that as the case. High-end prospects are high-end prospects and every team has a story about a highly touted guy who couldn't cut it at the big league level.

And Kenny's had some misses too.

asindc
12-11-2009, 03:20 PM
Apparently, tomorrow, both Jeremy Reed and Brian Anderson will be non-tendered.

Wow!

Factor in the decline of Chris Young and one would have to give Kenny a lot of credit. This guy is good at what he does.

Go Sox in 2010!

I don't think Boston expected much from BA, just hoping that a change of scenary would ignite something in him. Generally, though, I've always thought that getting established undervalued players for prospects has been one of KW's strong suits. As Russ99 said, there will always be a few GMs that become infatuated with other teams' prospects. Talk about hit or miss.

Frater Perdurabo
12-11-2009, 03:21 PM
I'm glad the Sox haven't gotten burned on any of these deals.

OTOH, it's too bad that none of those guys panned out for the Sox, and BA's failure in particular is an indictment of the Sox player development system.

Frater Perdurabo
12-11-2009, 03:22 PM
And Kenny's had some misses too.

The two Nick Swisher deals come to mind.

On balance, though, I think KW was won more than he has lost.

PalehosePlanet
12-11-2009, 03:45 PM
That's the thing though: buyers will eventually start to beware if he does nothing but pump up and trade away failed prospects.

Kenny "pumping up" prospects has nothing to do with it. Every team has scouts and personnel people who advise their team on prospects. They ask for certain prospects in deals, they make the decisions on who is good and who is not, Kenny could talk up a guy until he's blue in the face and no one would listen to him.

GAsoxfan
12-11-2009, 03:48 PM
On the flipside, do you really want your GM to get the reputation of a GM who does nothing but pump up prospects who will fail, or at the most fall far short of their expectations? I sure don't.

I find it hard to believe that any quality MLB GM would trade for a prospect based upon what Kenny says. That's why these teams pay scouts, so they can make their own determination. If a GM is trading for a guy based upon Kenny's rhetoric, then he deserves what he gets.

GAsoxfan
12-11-2009, 03:51 PM
Kenny "pumping up" prospects has nothing to do with it. Every team has scouts and personnel people who advise their team on prospects. They ask for certain prospects in deals, they make the decisions on who is good and who is not, Kenny could talk up a guy until he's blue in the face and no one would listen to him.

You beat me to it.

Plus, I don't think the Sox have the market cornered on failed prospects. A majority of prospects (even highly touted prospects) never make an impact at the major league level. We're aware of KW's moves because we're Sox fans, but I bet any team in the habit of trading away prospects could make the same claim.

KMcMahon817
12-11-2009, 03:54 PM
Apparently, tomorrow, both Jeremy Reed and Brian Anderson will be non-tendered.

Wow!

Factor in the decline of Chris Young and one would have to give Kenny a lot of credit. This guy is good at what he does.

Go Sox in 2010!


Maybe we should pick up that Anderson guy to solidify our outfield.

Daver
12-11-2009, 03:57 PM
Maybe we should pick up that Anderson guy to solidify our outfield.

Why the teal?

oeo
12-11-2009, 04:32 PM
That's the thing though: buyers will eventually start to beware if he does nothing but pump up and trade away failed prospects.

I think they will trust the opinions of their scouts. If teams are trading for our players because of what KW says about them, they have a serious organizational flaw.

BTW, people have been saying this for years now, and every year Kenny trades away more prospects.

JB98
12-11-2009, 05:24 PM
I'm glad the Sox haven't gotten burned on any of these deals.

OTOH, it's too bad that none of those guys panned out for the Sox, and BA's failure in particular is an indictment of the Sox player development system.

I tend to believe it is an indictment of the way the Sox have drafted. Look at the Sox top draft picks over the last 15-20 years. There are several who have never played a single game in the major leagues.

Also, other organizations have failed to get anything out of the prospects that KW has traded. If BA latches on with somebody and starts raking, or if Josh Fields tears it up for Kansas City, I'll begin to wonder if there was something more the Sox could have done for these guys. But at this point, I'm of the opinion that the Sox just haven't drafted well over an extended period of time.

NLaloosh
12-11-2009, 05:25 PM
I'm not saying that Kenny's out there fleecing people. I'm just amazed by his success in very rarely getting hurt when trading away some of his top prospects.

He's obviously chosen very wisely on which ones to trade or keep. Naturally, he can't be right all of the time.

Kudos to Kenny Williams.

soltrain21
12-11-2009, 05:45 PM
I'm not saying that Kenny's out there fleecing people. I'm just amazed by his success in very rarely getting hurt when trading away some of his top prospects.

He's obviously chosen very wisely on which ones to trade or keep. Naturally, he can't be right all of the time.

Kudos to Kenny Williams.

Outside of Beckham, no prospect has panned out whether we kept them or traded them.

Zisk77
12-11-2009, 05:51 PM
Outside of Beckham, no prospect has panned out whether we kept them or traded them.

Mark Beurhle, Joe Crede, Carlos Lee, Magglio Ordonez, and Chris Getz say hi.

Soon Hudson will be saying hello as well.

Aaron Rowand sends his regards too.

soltrain21
12-11-2009, 05:56 PM
Mark Beurhle, Joe Crede, Carlos Lee, Magglio Ordonez, and Chris Getz say hi.

Soon Hudson will be saying hello as well.

Aaron Rowand sends his regards too.


Carlos, Mark, Joe, Magglio and Aaron weren't drafted under Williams. Pretty sure the jury is still out on the other two.

Edit - and I understand he had a position with the team at the time, but he wasn't GM yet.

Daver
12-11-2009, 05:57 PM
Magglio wasn't drafted at all, and Ron Schueler left him unprotected for the rule 5 draft.

Domeshot17
12-11-2009, 06:09 PM
Mark Beurhle, Joe Crede, Carlos Lee, Magglio Ordonez, and Chris Getz say hi.

Soon Hudson will be saying hello as well.

Aaron Rowand sends his regards too.

And did Joe Crede ever really pan out? He is a home town hero, but outside a great playoff run and a few hot months in 2006, the guys had a pretty dog **** career. His back and his agent destroyed him.

I also would hardly say Getz panned out. The guy was a rookie last year, and wasn't bad, but hes nothing special.

The original point was true, It isn't like Kenny dealt Young and Reed knowing he hot this hotshot Anderson to fall back on. He dealt Young and Reed thinking he had Anderson, and Anderson sucked too. Anderson getting DFA'd is no shock. He was moved to the Red Sox in a salary dump of Kotsay. It worked out for us, but only because our bench was the worst in baseball last year, not because Kotsay is really that good.

Kenny is a good GM, above average for sure. I don't know if I would put him in the top 10 in baseball but hes easily in the conversation. The problem is (1) His results have not been consistent and (2) Hes really lost some bad deals too. Its also never great when you have to literally take the draft out of your gms hands. But, he does a lot good.

WSox597
12-12-2009, 08:42 AM
Why the teal?

Agreed, he is at his best with a glove on his hand. Late inning defensive replacement specialist is his game.

If only he could hit his weight.

Trav
12-12-2009, 09:53 AM
I'm glad the Sox haven't gotten burned on any of these deals.

OTOH, it's too bad that none of those guys panned out for the Sox, and BA's failure in particular is an indictment of the Sox player development system.

How many failures does it take to indict a development system? How many players need to produce in order for a development system to be deemed a success?

Personally, until the Sox make every player learn to do the little things in the minors before getting promoted I think the development system can be considered broken. That doesn't mean every prospect will be a bust, but it is doubtful we will see many players besides special guys like Beckham make an impact at the MLB level. High strike out, high defensive errors will have to be balanced against a high home run output. Guys like Josh Fields may have great power numbers occasionally, but his strikeouts will not wane from year to year.

Frater Perdurabo
12-12-2009, 05:04 PM
Personally, until the Sox make every player learn to do the little things in the minors before getting promoted I think the development system can be considered broken.

I think we agree here.

Daver
12-12-2009, 05:26 PM
Personally, until the Sox make every player learn to do the little things in the minors before getting promoted I think the development system can be considered broken.

I think we agree here.

I would not advise holding your breath while waiting for this to change.

Lip Man 1
12-12-2009, 08:07 PM
Overall I think Kenny has done a very fine job, no question.

I am concerned though about him missing the boat in some major philosophical team decisions in two of the past three years.

The bullpen fiasco in 2007 (hard throwers, young arms, high strikeout guys who couldn't find the plate or throw consistent strikes, had to lay the ball down the middle and got hammered) and last year thinking that Colon and Contreras were actually going to hold down 40% of the rotation.

Were these misses a "fluke" or are they the start of a trend? We'll see.

Lip

dickallen15
12-13-2009, 08:43 AM
Apparently, tomorrow, both Jeremy Reed and Brian Anderson will be non-tendered.

Wow!

Factor in the decline of Chris Young and one would have to give Kenny a lot of credit. This guy is good at what he does.

Go Sox in 2010!
Wasn't KW the GM when high draft picks were used to select these guys? Jeremy Reed went when he hit .400 in AA as a third of a package that netted a free agent to be. Brian Anderson was traded for a 35 year old OF who had just been DFA'd. Chris Young when with a couple of others for a guy who the Sox never got their money's worth.

Granted these "prospects" didn't pan out and getting something for them was nice, but there's the argument the Sox haven't been able to draft and develop like they should. People talk about their draft position. That's a cop out. In the 2004 draft, the Sox had 5 of the first 59 picks. They drafted Fields, Lumsden, Gio Gonzalez, Wes Whistler and Donny Lucy. Also available after their first 3 picks was Huston Street. Also available after their first 5 picks and both picked in the second round were Hunter Pence and Dustin Pedroia and Kurt Suzuki. KW as the GM must take some responsibility for that failure. They Sox also had the 69th pick that draft which they blew on Ray Liotta. Adam Lind was available.

southside rocks
12-13-2009, 08:53 AM
I'm glad the Sox haven't gotten burned on any of these deals.

OTOH, it's too bad that none of those guys panned out for the Sox, and BA's failure in particular is an indictment of the Sox player development system.

It's not an indictment of BA, whose work ethic in 2006 was non-existent and who devoted himself to partying like a rock star before he even displayed the ability to play like a major-league regular?

"It's a fair cop, and society is to blame."
"Agreed! We'll be charging them too."

BA's failure seems to me to be just that: BA's failure. :tongue:

soxfan43
12-13-2009, 09:21 AM
Wasn't KW the GM when high draft picks were used to select these guys? Jeremy Reed went when he hit .400 in AA as a third of a package that netted a free agent to be. Brian Anderson was traded for a 35 year old OF who had just been DFA'd. Chris Young when with a couple of others for a guy who the Sox never got their money's worth.

Granted these "prospects" didn't pan out and getting something for them was nice, but there's the argument the Sox haven't been able to draft and develop like they should. People talk about their draft position. That's a cop out. In the 2004 draft, the Sox had 5 of the first 59 picks. They drafted Fields, Lumsden, Gio Gonzalez, Wes Whistler and Donny Lucy. Also available after their first 3 picks was Huston Street. Also available after their first 5 picks and both picked in the second round were Hunter Pence and Dustin Pedroia and Kurt Suzuki. KW as the GM must take some responsibility for that failure. They Sox also had the 69th pick that draft which they blew on Ray Liotta. Adam Lind was available.

They've probably also been hesitant to draft a guy that's going to command a massive bonus and will be tough to sign after blowing all that cash on Borchard's bonus.

JohnTucker0814
12-13-2009, 10:15 AM
Wasn't KW the GM when high draft picks were used to select these guys? Jeremy Reed went when he hit .400 in AA as a third of a package that netted a free agent to be. Brian Anderson was traded for a 35 year old OF who had just been DFA'd. Chris Young when with a couple of others for a guy who the Sox never got their money's worth.

Granted these "prospects" didn't pan out and getting something for them was nice, but there's the argument the Sox haven't been able to draft and develop like they should. People talk about their draft position. That's a cop out. In the 2004 draft, the Sox had 5 of the first 59 picks. They drafted Fields, Lumsden, Gio Gonzalez, Wes Whistler and Donny Lucy. Also available after their first 3 picks was Huston Street. Also available after their first 5 picks and both picked in the second round were Hunter Pence and Dustin Pedroia and Kurt Suzuki. KW as the GM must take some responsibility for that failure. They Sox also had the 69th pick that draft which they blew on Ray Liotta. Adam Lind was available.

No way can you hold Kenny Williams accountable for the talent of players that we draft. Do you think he has the time to scout these players personally so he can make the decision on who to draft. All the blame goes on the scouts that gave the information on the players that we drafted. Maybe Kenny gave the scouts an idea of what he was looking for, solid major league types instead of high ceiling. The signability aspect should be blamed on the owners not the GM.

If you look at our last two drafts, we have drafted some awesome talent... what is the difference? The minor league director, not the GM!

dickallen15
12-13-2009, 10:23 AM
No way can you hold Kenny Williams accountable for the talent of players that we draft. Do you think he has the time to scout these players personally so he can make the decision on who to draft. All the blame goes on the scouts that gave the information on the players that we drafted. Maybe Kenny gave the scouts an idea of what he was looking for, solid major league types instead of high ceiling. The signability aspect should be blamed on the owners not the GM.

If you look at our last two drafts, we have drafted some awesome talent... what is the difference? The minor league director, not the GM!
Are they awesome the last 2 drafts? They haven't reached the majors yet. Beckham was a great pick, but just about everybody on this board could have picked him. It would be like giving the Cavaliers' GM credit for drafting LeBron James.

He is absolutely responsible. He took over as GM prior to the 2001 season. It took him until after the 2007 draft to do anything about all the failure, but they sure did have excuses.

Wasn't it KW who said Josh Fields would be an All Star a couple of years ago? Maybe he meant beer league. Didn't he say Marquez was the same pitcher as Garland?

Daver
12-13-2009, 11:15 AM
People tend to forget that prior to being the GM Kenny was the Minor League Director, the mess that is the White Sox minor league system is entirely his responsibility.

TomBradley72
12-13-2009, 11:21 AM
On the flipside, do you really want your GM to get the reputation of a GM who does nothing but pump up prospects who will fail, or at the most fall far short of their expectations? I sure don't.

I couldn't care less about this....if any GM is making trade decisions on what KW says vs. what THEIR scouting departments say..they shouldn't be in MLB.

guillensdisciple
12-13-2009, 11:22 AM
People tend to forget that prior to being the GM Kenny was the Minor League Director, the mess that is the White Sox minor league system is entirely his responsibility.


You could not try to be more of a negative Nancy if you tried.

You're just looking for reasons to bring the guy down, wow.

dickallen15
12-13-2009, 11:42 AM
What people have to realize is if you are willing to take on some money, you can trade mediocre prospects for players that will probably outperform them.

DumpJerry
12-13-2009, 12:18 PM
People tend to forget that prior to being the GM Kenny was the Minor League Director, the mess that is the White Sox minor league system is entirely his responsibility.

You could not try to be more of a negative Nancy if you tried.

You're just looking for reasons to bring the guy down, wow.
Yup. Da Nile is more than just a river in Egypt.

Redus Redux
12-13-2009, 05:24 PM
Early Kenny:


Kip Wells, Sean Lowe, Josh Fogg, Chris Singleton, Keith Foulke, Mark Johnson, Antonio Osuna, Frank Francisco, Josh Rupe, Aaron Miles, Gary Majewski, Jon Rauch and Carlos Lee

FOR

Todd Ritchie, Willie Harris, Billy Koch, Neal Cotts, Bartolo Colon, Juan Uribe, 2 Carl Everetts, Scott Podsednik and Luis Vizcaino



I tried to ignore flat out salary dumps as that's not him wheeling and dealing necessarily.

Redus Redux
12-13-2009, 05:26 PM
He probably gave up more talent than he got back, but he got back things that filled the right holes for a championship. This is why you cant really judge trades fairly in isolation. Unless it's a blowout.

Danielgosox38
12-14-2009, 01:29 AM
You could not try to be more of a negative Nancy if you tried.

You're just looking for reasons to bring the guy down, wow.


So he's being negative, just because he's telling you what you don't want to hear?

jabrch
12-14-2009, 01:41 AM
BA's failure in particular is an indictment of the Sox player development system.

That's one way to look at it. I say it is an indictment of BA. But we can play volleyball on this one forever.

I blame the player - not the coaches. Brian may very well be a bad 4th OF and a 4A type guy.

chunk
12-14-2009, 01:48 AM
That's one way to look at it. I say it is an indictment of BA. But we can play volleyball on this one forever.

I blame the player - not the coaches. Brian may very well be a bad 4th OF and a 4A type guy.


Yeah, sometimes it's easy to forget that the Sox had a top-5 farm system early in the decade. That farm produced pretty much nothing. In fact, BA was an extremely well regarded prospect.

jabrch
12-14-2009, 02:11 AM
Yeah, sometimes it's easy to forget that the Sox had a top-5 farm system early in the decade. That farm produced pretty much nothing. In fact, BA was an extremely well regarded prospect.

I am not a fan of farm system rankings. They don't mean much. That being said, yes, we had a strong farm full of guys who never panned out.

BA, like many others, was well regarded across MLB. And like many many many others, that didnt translate to playing at the next level.

Hopefully this current crop will do better.

parlaycard
12-14-2009, 08:11 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't the Sox mess with Fields by sending him down to the minors in 2008? Fields hit 23 HRs and drove in 67 in 373 at bats in 2007 and was rewarded with a nice season at Charlotte in 2008.

That might mess up any player. Does this make Fields a bad draft pick? Absolutely not.

Kenny should have moved Fields when he had some value if they werent going to let him play at the major league level.

tsoxman
12-14-2009, 09:04 PM
What people have to realize is if you are willing to take on some money, you can trade mediocre prospects for players that will probably outperform them.
Sure just like Nick Swisher.

Seriously though, there are two ways that I look at the approach that Kenny uses when he empties out the farm system to get a couple of guys.

The first thing I say is that if these are decent prospects and you are an organization that struggles financially, the pattern of getting expensive and older veterans for younger players is not sustainable in the long run. Eventually you run out of money and you have no reinforcements to call up during the season.

The next thing I say is that if these younger players are bad and they are your better prospects, then what in the hell are you doing with your minor league system? Something is seriously flawed if you cannot develop decent minor league players. There are few teams that can sustain success with this approach.