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JohnTucker0814
12-08-2009, 01:58 PM
If the reports are true, I think the Tigers got a lot of good young talent in this trade:

To Yankees: Curtis Granderson
To Arizona: Edwin Jackson, Ian Kennedy
To Tigers: Austin Jackson, Phil Coke, Daniel Schlereth, Max Scherzer

Jackson and Scherzer are the bigger prizes but is Granderson really that good? He seems to me that he strikes out a whole lot, hits a few HR and steals a few bases. Austin Jackson is one of the better athletes out there and Scherzer is supposed to be pretty good!

If I'm the Tigers I'm excited about the return for those two!

DirtySox
12-08-2009, 02:03 PM
I think the return is decent. I really like Scherzer. Coke and Schlereth are decent pieces too. I'm not as high on Jackson as other people. I wonder if he will be the starting CF at the start of next season.

Oblong
12-08-2009, 02:11 PM
I have mixed feelings from a purely emotional standpoint. I loved Curtis the way I loved Trammell and Parrish as a kid. When Lance signed with the Phillies I felt like crying but as a 13 year old kid, well.... it was hard not to.

But from a baseball standpoint it's probably a good deal.

NardiWasHere
12-08-2009, 02:12 PM
I love Granderson, don't get me wrong.

But that seems like a lot.

Rockabilly
12-08-2009, 02:13 PM
Man I love the Yankees lineup.

PalehosePlanet
12-08-2009, 02:18 PM
If the reports are true, I think the Tigers got a lot of good young talent in this trade:

To Yankees: Curtis Granderson
To Arizona: Edwin Jackson, Ian Kennedy
To Tigers: Austin Jackson, Phil Coke, Daniel Schlereth, Max Scherzer

Jackson and Scherzer are the bigger prizes but is Granderson really that good? He seems to me that he strikes out a whole lot, hits a few HR and steals a few bases. Austin Jackson is one of the better athletes out there and Scherzer is supposed to be pretty good!

If I'm the Tigers I'm excited about the return for those two!

My guess is that Tigers fans will be pissed. First Polanco is gone, now Granderson, --- not to mention Rodney and Lyon in the pen --- which leaves Maggs to hit behind Cabrera. Unless they make a corresponding move, which I'm starting to doubt, my guess is that this won't be received well in Motown.

BadBobbyJenks
12-08-2009, 02:23 PM
Wow if the Yanks add another starter there is really no point in participating in the 2010 season.

I am a huge Scherzer fan, this is really disappointing.

NLaloosh
12-08-2009, 02:28 PM
The rich get richer.

thomas35forever
12-08-2009, 02:31 PM
Anything to get Granderson out of the division, I'm fine with. However, as others have said, the Yankees will seem pretty much unbeatable again next season if this goes through.

Jimmy Piersall
12-08-2009, 02:39 PM
Anything to get Granderson out of the division, I'm fine with. However, as others have said, the Yankees will seem pretty much unbeatable again next season if this goes through.

So come playoff time,the Yanks are just in a little better position to
compete with us !

Corlose 15
12-08-2009, 02:46 PM
The latest I've seen doesn't have Schlereth coming to Detroit. Only Scherzer, Coke, and Austin Jackson.

oeo
12-08-2009, 02:53 PM
Wow if the Yanks add another starter there is really no point in participating in the 2010 season.

Unfortunately, people said the same about the Sox after acquiring Thome in November 2005. It's very difficult to repeat, **** happens.

I'm more pissed that the Tigers got all this for just Granderson and Jackson (who fell back to Earth in the second half). Killer deal for them.

BadBobbyJenks
12-08-2009, 02:56 PM
Unfortunately, people said the same about the Sox after acquiring Thome after 2005. It's very difficult to repeat, **** happens.

I'm more pissed that the Tigers got all this for just Granderson. Killer deal for them.

The difference though, is we were a great team collectively, this is a great team made up of the best players in baseball. They will be able to survive a few players falling off unlike the Sox were in 06.

oeo
12-08-2009, 02:58 PM
The difference though, is we were a great team collectively, this is a great team made up of the best players in baseball. They will be able to survive a few players falling off unlike the Sox were in 06.

What if they lose Sabathia for an extended period of time (all those innings are bound to catch up eventually)? Pettitte is another year older, Burnett is never healthy. That team can easily bomb, just like any other. Lengthy postseason runs outside of the steroid era have really hurt pitching staffs the following year.

WhiteSox5187
12-08-2009, 03:06 PM
Boy, the poor Tigers sure are shedding salary. Tough times for Motown.

VeeckAsInWreck
12-08-2009, 03:09 PM
MLB.com (http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091208&content_id=7774288&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb)is reporting the deal.

I like Granderson, and would love to see him in a Sox uniform.

I think the D'Backs are getting screwed in this deal though. Edwin Jackson was bad in the second half. Unless they have a Coop-like coach that will fix him.

oeo
12-08-2009, 03:09 PM
Boy, the poor Tigers sure are shedding salary. Tough times for Motown.

http://blog.mlive.com/state_sports/2007/09/large_magglio30.jpg

No tough times for me!

BadBobbyJenks
12-08-2009, 03:10 PM
What if they lose Sabathia for an extended period of time (all those innings are bound to catch up eventually)? Pettitte is another year older, Burnett is never healthy. That team can easily bomb, just like any other. Lengthy postseason runs outside of the steroid era have really hurt pitching staffs the following year.

True, my original thought was IF they add another starting pitcher.

TheOldRoman
12-08-2009, 03:23 PM
Lip, what say you? Was Illitch still innovative and smart? Did "going for it" and the huge contracts they handed out help them?

TheOldRoman
12-08-2009, 03:27 PM
True, my original thought was IF they add another starting pitcher.Even then, stuff happens. I don't get too worked up about things like this because I remember when we all "handed them the trophy' after they got HGHambi in 2002 and A-Roid in 2004.

Captain Cheeseburger probably won't break down next year, but his contract will be an albatross by year five at the latest. Not too many obese men are able to throw that amount of inning and pitch well for a long period of time. However, paying Sabathia in year 7 to give the Yanks what Contreras gave the Sox in 09 won't hurt them, because they will just have a new toy.

munchman33
12-08-2009, 03:45 PM
Lip, what say you? Was Illitch still innovative and smart? Did "going for it" and the huge contracts they handed out help them?

Yeah it's hard not to see this as a pure salary dump. Two young, good players with reasonable salaries for prospects. Good prospects, but still. If this was Kenny, we'd be calling for his head.

UChicagoHP
12-08-2009, 03:46 PM
Unless Scherzer had elbow/shoulder issues last year, he is the best talent in that trade. And if he reaches his full potential, he will be a pain the Sox's ass for the next decade. Zona will regret this trade unless they have some inside info regarding Scherzer's arm...

Oblong
12-08-2009, 03:50 PM
It's not a salary dump. Granderson is only going to make $5.5 million next year and after that a bunch of money comes off the payroll. Jackson is still under team control. Without the contracts to Magglio, Guillen, Willis, and Robertson I think this deal still gets made. They were not going to sign Jackson long term because they're saving that money for Verlander.

If the team was going to be put in a position to have to do this then they wouldn't have traded for Jarrod Washburn, Aubrey Huff, who were owed millions even in the remainder of 2009, and let Magglio's option kick in. The money from a playoff series would not have made up the difference.

Basically they got younger versions of the players they traded, plus 2 more guys. They are still prospects though.

michned
12-08-2009, 03:55 PM
What on earth were the Diamondbacks thinking? At least Schlereth and Scherzer have a lot of upside. I can't see Edwin Jackson and Ian Kennedy getting any better.

Schlereth and Ryan Perry reunite in Detroit (both were first round picks out of Arizona last year).

Oblong
12-08-2009, 04:01 PM
I heard that if Perry wasn't available that Detroit would have taken Schlereth.

spongyfungy
12-08-2009, 04:02 PM
Scherzer seems like a pitcher Kenny would go after. hard throwing strikeout guy.

Hopefully he keeps having control issues and gets traded here (*wishful thinking)

munchman33
12-08-2009, 04:28 PM
It's not a salary dump. Granderson is only going to make $5.5 million next year and after that a bunch of money comes off the payroll. Jackson is still under team control. Without the contracts to Magglio, Guillen, Willis, and Robertson I think this deal still gets made. They were not going to sign Jackson long term because they're saving that money for Verlander.

If the team was going to be put in a position to have to do this then they wouldn't have traded for Jarrod Washburn, Aubrey Huff, who were owed millions even in the remainder of 2009, and let Magglio's option kick in. The money from a playoff series would not have made up the difference.

Basically they got younger versions of the players they traded, plus 2 more guys. They are still prospects though.

Umm...they could have signed their young players and kept their other young players if they didn't have all those terrible contracts. What do you mean?

And there's still two years of control on Jackson, so it isn't like that had to deal him.

This is about as dump as a salary dump gets. Biggest contracts someone would take in order to make payroll.

Oblong
12-08-2009, 04:44 PM
Umm...they could have signed their young players and kept their other young players if they didn't have all those terrible contracts. What do you mean?

And there's still two years of control on Jackson, so it isn't like that had to deal him.

This is about as dump as a salary dump gets. Biggest contracts someone would take in order to make payroll.

What young players? Curtis was already signed. They were not going to give Lyon and Rodney big contracts because the team's been drafting ML ready relief pitchers since 2007. Yes Jackson had 2 more years but the closer he got to FA the lower his value gets. It's the epitome of a sell high move on a guy who's been pretty much a project his whole career (They traded a AAA outfielder to get him), has a lights out first half, a bad second half.

DaveFeelsRight
12-08-2009, 04:47 PM
let the yanks sign granderson.

the bigger they are, the harder they fall

munchman33
12-08-2009, 05:19 PM
What young players? Curtis was already signed. They were not going to give Lyon and Rodney big contracts because the team's been drafting ML ready relief pitchers since 2007. Yes Jackson had 2 more years but the closer he got to FA the lower his value gets. It's the epitome of a sell high move on a guy who's been pretty much a project his whole career (They traded a AAA outfielder to get him), has a lights out first half, a bad second half.

Both guys are young and good. It's hard to argue this trade puts the Tigers in a better position to compete over the next two years. Spin it however you want, the Tigers made decisions that were, at best, pourous financial decisions. And they're trading young talent at fixed, affordable costs because of that. For the amount of talent going out (young CF signed longterm, young SP w/2 years left before free agency), they sure didn't get much back. Best case scenerio is two years from now, they've replaced the production they lost.

munchman33
12-08-2009, 05:22 PM
Unless Scherzer had elbow/shoulder issues last year, he is the best talent in that trade. And if he reaches his full potential, he will be a pain the Sox's ass for the next decade. Zona will regret this trade unless they have some inside info regarding Scherzer's arm...

He's been pretty dissappointing for them. He regressed last year, had control problems, and gave up 20 bombs. He gave up almost a hit an inning as well. His WHIP was something above 1.3. Not good. They were probably done with him, given his age.

goon
12-08-2009, 05:30 PM
Out of the three "big" names I actually like Edwin the most. He's only a year older than Scherzer, but he proved he's a top of the rotation guy last year. Scherzer struggled with control last year and though still young and going to pitch in a big ball park, he's moving to the AL. The quality of his arsenal is great, however, there are only a few guys that I can think of with control issues in the AL that have any kind of consistency, AJ Burnett being one of them.

Granderson seems kind of overrated to me. Great defensively, but it depends where you put him in the lineup. He seems like he can be many different types of players, a power guy, an onbase guy, but if the Yankees are going to use him in the leadoff spot, he's going to have to get on base more.

The good thing about this trade for New York is that they essentially gave up very little, but the Tigers got a lot in return, even though they gave up two really good players.

goon
12-08-2009, 05:31 PM
He's been pretty dissappointing for them. He regressed last year, had control problems, and gave up 20 bombs. He gave up almost a hit an inning as well. His WHIP was something above 1.3. Not good. They were probably done with him, given his age.

I think Arizona also questions his durability, maybe more than anything.

munchman33
12-08-2009, 05:39 PM
I think Arizona also questions his durability, maybe more than anything.

True.

stevemcstud
12-08-2009, 05:46 PM
If I am Kenny I am on the phone to see how much they want for Brett Gardner.

I imagine it isn't that much. He is cheap, under team control, and posted a good line of 270/345/379 last year which isnt great but isnt bad.

He was hot until he got hurt last year and stole 26 out of 31 in just 108 games vs 30 out of 43 for pods.

His OBP was only 10 points lower than Pods last year and has great upside vs. Pods has none.

He is a lefty, he can bat lead off, only 26, and can play center field.

munchman33
12-08-2009, 05:56 PM
If I am Kenny I am on the phone to see how much they want for Brett Gardner.

I imagine it isn't that much. He is cheap, under team control, and posted a good line of 270/345/379 last year which isnt great but isnt bad.

He was hot until he got hurt last year and stole 26 out of 31 in just 108 games vs 30 out of 43 for pods.

His was only 10 points lower than Pods last year and has great upside vs. Pods has none.

He is a lefty, he can bat lead off, only 26, and can play center field.

They're more likely to trade Melky.

stevemcstud
12-08-2009, 06:05 PM
They're more likely to trade Melky.

I would imagine that they are thinking they could likely move him over to left or right. I would rather keep Melky in their situation if I was them, Melky has more power, stronger arm, they dont need two of the same type of players more or less by keeping Gardner.

The most likely scenario is that they trade Swisher though. I mean they really dont need another guy with a 250 range average who hits 30 HR. At least Granderson can steal bases.

I'll cross my fingers for Gardner.

Oblong
12-08-2009, 06:08 PM
Both guys are young and good. It's hard to argue this trade puts the Tigers in a better position to compete over the next two years. Spin it however you want, the Tigers made decisions that were, at best, pourous financial decisions. And they're trading young talent at fixed, affordable costs because of that. For the amount of talent going out (young CF signed longterm, young SP w/2 years left before free agency), they sure didn't get much back. Best case scenerio is two years from now, they've replaced the production they lost.

It's not spin. I watched these guys every game. If it were Verlander or Porcello or Cabrera, you'd have an argument. But Jackson and Granderson both have a legitimate downside and question marks assigned to them.

Jackson was a top draftee and is now going to his fourth organization. There's a reason he was traded to the Tigers for Matt Joyce. Yes he looked to have a breakout year and finally achieve what they always thought he would. But check his second half. You may be surprised. Is it someone coming down to earth after putting up ungodly numbers? Is it someone getting tired? Or was it a fluke? Or was the first half a fluke? There's a risk to keeping him because maybe the 2008 and second half 2009 Edwin Jackson is the real deal and suddenly you lose any chance to get value for him. As it is now they get a younger version.

And for Granderson, check out his numbers against lefties. No one loved him more than I did but it got very frustrating watching him not only do poorly against lefties but do extremely poor. Until the last week or 10 days of the season, his only big hit in 2009 was that double off of Jenks in that July Saturday game. He could very well be at a crossroads for his career where instead of the all around superstar he'll end up being a $13 million platoon guy.

Both players have question marks and the Tigers sold high on them. I'm not saying they will be bad players but that that this wasn't simply a salary dump.

With both guys they got younger alternatives with potential to be just as good. Is it a risk? Sure. If it were not then they would have gotten better players.

BadBobbyJenks
12-08-2009, 06:53 PM
I am surprised it hasn't been said yet, but all this does is put the Tigers in better position to compete with us.

soxinem1
12-08-2009, 07:08 PM
If the reports are true, I think the Tigers got a lot of good young talent in this trade:

To Yankees: Curtis Granderson
To Arizona: Edwin Jackson, Ian Kennedy
To Tigers: Austin Jackson, Phil Coke, Daniel Schlereth, Max Scherzer

Jackson and Scherzer are the bigger prizes but is Granderson really that good? He seems to me that he strikes out a whole lot, hits a few HR and steals a few bases. Austin Jackson is one of the better athletes out there and Scherzer is supposed to be pretty good!

If I'm the Tigers I'm excited about the return for those two!

I like this trade for DET. Scherzer and Verlander in 2010, Jackson gets a shot in CF, a solid, young lefty for the pen.

Plus, they get rid of Jackson while his value is high, as he was the AL version of Jason Marquis for 2/3 of the season in 2009.

cards press box
12-08-2009, 11:17 PM
Both guys are young and good. It's hard to argue this trade puts the Tigers in a better position to compete over the next two years.

I like the Tigers' side of this trade better than either the Yankees or Diamondbacks. Down the stretch, Edwin Jackson lost two key games to the White Sox and was hit hard in both games. Ian Kennedy has been ineffective in the majors. If I were Arizona, I wouldn't have dealt Max Scherzer even up for Jackson and Kennedy, let alone throw in hard throwing lefty Daniel Schlereth. Justin Verlander, Rick Porcello and Scherzer could be a potent trio of starters for Detroit.

As for Curtis Granderson, his strikeouts are still way too high and, by the end of the season, he couldn't hit lefties at all and was basically platooning with Ryan Raburn. I don't think that Granderson is an upgrade on what the Yankees already had in the outfield.

The Tigers got Scherzer (the best starting pitcher in the deal), two lefties for their bullpen (Schlereth and Phil Coke) and Austin Jackson. Jackson is 22 and was the Eastern League postseason MVP in 2008 and the International League Rookie of the Year in 2009. With the Tigers, Jackson will have the chance to be the Tiger center fielder.

If I am Kenny I am on the phone to see how much they want for Brett Gardner.

They're more likely to trade Melky.

I don't think that the Yanks will trade either Brett Gardner or Melky Cabrera. Granderson will replace either Johnny Damon or Hideki Matsui or both (if the Yanks elect to rotate the DH slot among Posada, Jeter and A-Rod). I wonder if this deal makes it more likely that the White Sox will sign Matsui.

thedudeabides
12-09-2009, 11:20 AM
It's not spin. I watched these guys every game. If it were Verlander or Porcello or Cabrera, you'd have an argument. But Jackson and Granderson both have a legitimate downside and question marks assigned to them.

Jackson was a top draftee and is now going to his fourth organization. There's a reason he was traded to the Tigers for Matt Joyce. Yes he looked to have a breakout year and finally achieve what they always thought he would. But check his second half. You may be surprised. Is it someone coming down to earth after putting up ungodly numbers? Is it someone getting tired? Or was it a fluke? Or was the first half a fluke? There's a risk to keeping him because maybe the 2008 and second half 2009 Edwin Jackson is the real deal and suddenly you lose any chance to get value for him. As it is now they get a younger version.

And for Granderson, check out his numbers against lefties. No one loved him more than I did but it got very frustrating watching him not only do poorly against lefties but do extremely poor. Until the last week or 10 days of the season, his only big hit in 2009 was that double off of Jenks in that July Saturday game. He could very well be at a crossroads for his career where instead of the all around superstar he'll end up being a $13 million platoon guy.

Both players have question marks and the Tigers sold high on them. I'm not saying they will be bad players but that that this wasn't simply a salary dump.

With both guys they got younger alternatives with potential to be just as good. Is it a risk? Sure. If it were not then they would have gotten better players.

Oblong I'm not sure you're seeing this objectively. How can you say they sold high on Granderson? This was probably the lowest his value is at since he came up. I agree they sold high on Jackson, but I think it was a good park for him to pitch in, and is the best pitcher in the deal, for now.

There really is no other way to look at this, other than a salary dump. The Tigers have $92 million comitted to Magglio, Bonderman, Willis, Guillen, Robertson, Inge, and Cabrera. They had to cut payroll and all of those contracts are immovable, unless you take on another bad contract. Jackson and Granderson were they only pieces they could get value from, and I don't even like the value they recieved.

Austin Jackson is a Yankees hype machine, and unless he maintains a very high average at the pro level, he could very well be a fourth outfielder.

Sherzer is immensely talented, but many think he is ticketed for the bullpen, as he has a very rough mechanics and a violent delivery, that have a lot of scouts thinking he can't last as a starter. He has already had issues with his shoulder. And the trouble he has had repeating his delivery has been apparent with his control issues, which has led to him not being able to go deep into games. That doesn't translate well moving to the AL. My point being, both of the top players received have a long way to go.

I don't know much about Sclereth, but if things don't go well, the Tigers could easily end up with a couple of bullpen arms and a fourth outfielder for Granderson and Jackson. If I were a Tiger fan I would be pissed. I can't even imagine what this board would be like if this were the Sox.

Granderson may be trending down or it may have been just a down year, and he does have flaws, but he's also the most popular player in Detroit sports, or close to it. The drunken sailor spending has finally caught up to Dombrowski, althought at least it is only short term. He didn't saddle himself with long term albatross contracts like Hendry on the other side of town.

Oblong
12-09-2009, 12:25 PM
Oblong I'm not sure you're seeing this objectively. How can you say they sold high on Granderson? This was probably the lowest his value is at since he came up. I agree they sold high on Jackson, but I think it was a good park for him to pitch in, and is the best pitcher in the deal, for now.

There really is no other way to look at this, other than a salary dump. The Tigers have $92 million comitted to Magglio, Bonderman, Willis, Guillen, Robertson, Inge, and Cabrera. They had to cut payroll and all of those contracts are immovable, unless you take on another bad contract. Jackson and Granderson were they only pieces they could get value from, and I don't even like the value they recieved.

Austin Jackson is a Yankees hype machine, and unless he maintains a very high average at the pro level, he could very well be a fourth outfielder.

Sherzer is immensely talented, but many think he is ticketed for the bullpen, as he has a very rough mechanics and a violent delivery, that have a lot of scouts thinking he can't last as a starter. He has already had issues with his shoulder. And the trouble he has had repeating his delivery has been apparent with his control issues, which has led to him not being able to go deep into games. That doesn't translate well moving to the AL. My point being, both of the top players received have a long way to go.

I don't know much about Sclereth, but if things don't go well, the Tigers could easily end up with a couple of bullpen arms and a fourth outfielder for Granderson and Jackson. If I were a Tiger fan I would be pissed. I can't even imagine what this board would be like if this were the Sox.

Granderson may be trending down or it may have been just a down year, and he does have flaws, but he's also the most popular player in Detroit sports, or close to it. The drunken sailor spending has finally caught up to Dombrowski, althought at least it is only short term. He didn't saddle himself with long term albatross contracts like Hendry on the other side of town.

As was said on mlbnetwork last night, if this was a salary dump then they wouldn't have cared what they got back but would have instead said 'Here, take Guillen, or Nate Robertson, or Dontrelle Willis too'. Or they would have moved Verlander or Cabrera who have very little downside to them.

Granderson's only making $5.5 million next year. He hit .249 last year. That's not against lefties. That's against everybody. Check baseball reference's similarity score at age 28 for him. Who's #1? Bobby Higginson. If he bats second, behind Jeter, the othe team wil bring in a lefty, get Granderson out, and stay in the game and make Teiexiera hit RH.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still not sold on whether this was a good or bad deal. But it was not a salary dump. Yes you will see some in the Detroit media say it was but those are the goofballs. I'm sure Chicago has the equivalent versions.

thedudeabides
12-09-2009, 01:38 PM
As was said on mlbnetwork last night, if this was a salary dump then they wouldn't have cared what they got back but would have instead said 'Here, take Guillen, or Nate Robertson, or Dontrelle Willis too'. Or they would have moved Verlander or Cabrera who have very little downside to them.

Granderson's only making $5.5 million next year. He hit .249 last year. That's not against lefties. That's against everybody. Check baseball reference's similarity score at age 28 for him. Who's #1? Bobby Higginson. If he bats second, behind Jeter, the othe team wil bring in a lefty, get Granderson out, and stay in the game and make Teiexiera hit RH.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still not sold on whether this was a good or bad deal. But it was not a salary dump. Yes you will see some in the Detroit media say it was but those are the goofballs. I'm sure Chicago has the equivalent versions.

I understand what you are saying, but it was about salary. That is pretty clear. Nobody is taking Guillen, Robinson, or Willis, unless it involves taking a bad contract back. Granderson and Jackson was a way for them to shed payroll and get a return. So, if you think that dis-qualifies it as a salary 'dump', than fine, but that's just semantics. They can't get a return on any of the bad contracts they have, so far they can't give these players away. Velander would get a huge return, but they want to keep him. Cabrera has a moster contract that only a couple of teams could afford, and raised some red flags about himself last year. I'm not sure they could move him if they wanted to.

If it is not about salary, what was it about? The Tigers are claiming they plan on competing next year. Did this make their team better next year?

I haven't read a single thing from a Detroit writer, but most national writers, I'm talking about the select few I think are worth anything, all pretty much agree that the Tigers backed themselves into a corner, and they forced themselves into this trade. This was all about salary.

Oblong
12-09-2009, 01:51 PM
I think this trade gets made even if Guillen/Nate/Willis were not on the books for 2010. Assuming Magglio's 2011 option doesn't vest, the team's payroll committed payroll goes down $50 million going into 2011. If the 2010 salaries of those guys were so prohibitive then they would not have let Magglio's option vest for 2010 and they would not have traded for Aubrey Huff or Jarrod Washburn mid season when they were still owed.

Now if you want to say it's about salary in the sense that the team did what all teams would like to do, that is get younger and cheaper, then I agree. My only point is that I don't think they were forced into this with the contracts. Mike Ilitch is not afraid to spend money. This was a baseball trade, not a payroll trade.

thedudeabides
12-09-2009, 02:06 PM
I think this trade gets made even if Guillen/Nate/Willis were not on the books for 2010. Assuming Magglio's 2011 option doesn't vest, the team's payroll committed payroll goes down $50 million going into 2011. If the 2010 salaries of those guys were so prohibitive then they would not have let Magglio's option vest for 2010 and they would not have traded for Aubrey Huff or Jarrod Washburn mid season when they were still owed.

Now if you want to say it's about salary in the sense that the team did what all teams would like to do, that is get younger and cheaper, then I agree. My only point is that I don't think they were forced into this with the contracts. Mike Ilitch is not afraid to spend money. This was a baseball trade, not a payroll trade.

I see your reasoning, but you are the only one I've heard who seems to think this. What the team did last year in the middle of a pennant race shouldn't reflect on the decisions for this years team. I have a really hard time believing if Mags contract didn't vest and they were able to unload 1 or 2 of the bad contracts that this still happens. In fact, I've heard nothing but the opposite.

I guess we're going to disagree on this. If it was just simply a baseball trade, than it was a bad one. Do you think they are a better team now?

Oblong
12-09-2009, 02:34 PM
I honestly don't know. We've had extensive discussions about trading Granderson over at Motown going back to August. At the time I said I only wanted ML quality players, not prospects. But as the season went on I started to get very worried about his performance, wondering whether he was just in a slump or if teams have figured him out.

I've seen a lot of people in the know say that these prospects are very good. One source who does scouting work says everybody he's talked to in the industry, scouts, GM's, coaches, players, say the Tigers got some very good young players. But they are still prospects.

On another site I was discussing the trade and brought up Higginson, who I referenced earlier in this thread. Imagine the Tigers trading him in 1999 for a top OF prospect. They'd have been crucified at the time but he only had one good year after that. I found a 1999 top 20 list and it had guys like Carlos Beltran, Lance Berkman (Great trade).... it also had Alex Escobar. When I read these lists you'd think everybody's going to be an All Star.

I guess I'll compromise and say I agree with the theory behind it. But man it's tough to lose Granderson because the guy was just very special, for a lot of non baseball reasons. A joy to watch. Chicago should be proud to produce a guy like that.

thedudeabides
12-09-2009, 05:51 PM
I honestly don't know. We've had extensive discussions about trading Granderson over at Motown going back to August. At the time I said I only wanted ML quality players, not prospects. But as the season went on I started to get very worried about his performance, wondering whether he was just in a slump or if teams have figured him out.

I've seen a lot of people in the know say that these prospects are very good. One source who does scouting work says everybody he's talked to in the industry, scouts, GM's, coaches, players, say the Tigers got some very good young players. But they are still prospects.

On another site I was discussing the trade and brought up Higginson, who I referenced earlier in this thread. Imagine the Tigers trading him in 1999 for a top OF prospect. They'd have been crucified at the time but he only had one good year after that. I found a 1999 top 20 list and it had guys like Carlos Beltran, Lance Berkman (Great trade).... it also had Alex Escobar. When I read these lists you'd think everybody's going to be an All Star.

I guess I'll compromise and say I agree with the theory behind it. But man it's tough to lose Granderson because the guy was just very special, for a lot of non baseball reasons. A joy to watch. Chicago should be proud to produce a guy like that.

I'm sure you Tiger fans have talked it to death. I guess it's one of those wait and see things. I don't think Higginson is a great comp, as Granderson has a better all around game(at a premium position), and his level of popularity and draw have to be taken into consideration, but you're right to be worried about his performance last year. I'm not convinced it wasn't just a down year, but I also have faith in Rios turning his game back around, so I guess I can be forgiving to proven veterans.

The Tigers definitely got good prospects back, and I think Sherzer has a chance to be very good, we'll just have to see if it's in the the bullpen or the starting rotation. His arm has always been viewed as a big risk, he has had shoulder trouble at every level and TJ surgery in High School, but he has the stuff to be very good.

I really think the Yankees sold high on Austin Jackson. A lot of scouts don't think his defense is good enough to stay in centerfield and he hasn't shown enough power to be a corner outfielder, or really at all. I have heard him compared as another Ryan Sweeney, but a better baserunner and a worse defender. Like I said, he will have to hit for a high average, and be a leadoff type hitter, at the major league level to be successful.

Maybe, it is a move the Tigers needed to make, as their team is clearly going in a whole new direction now, and after 2010. And I could be way off, maybe this will end up being a good baseball decision. I'll let you guys over at Motown hash that out. :wink:

Waysouthsider
12-09-2009, 07:31 PM
I'm glad to see him gone, but I sure wonder how the MC Kitties get all of those prospects back? Of course the Yankees prospects are always over-rated, but still, Austin Jackson could be darned good...

They sure seem to have made out better than we did with our trade of Swisher to New York.....yikes!

Oblong
12-09-2009, 08:23 PM
I'm glad to see him gone, but I sure wonder how the MC Kitties get all of those prospects back? Of course the Yankees prospects are always over-rated, but still, Austin Jackson could be darned good...

They sure seem to have made out better than we did with our trade of Swisher to New York.....yikes!

Honestly, how often does an all star for prospects pan out for the team getting prospects? That'd be an interesting study.

Pablo_Honey
12-09-2009, 08:34 PM
Honestly, how often does an all star for prospects pan out for the team getting prospects? That'd be an interesting study.

I'm gonna guess it's almost 50/50, though the few that did work out were just flat out highway robbery. Like, the Colon trade, Pierzynski trade, Garcia trade, etc. Those are some lobsided trades right there.

PushinWeight
12-10-2009, 06:41 PM
I'm glad to see Granderson leave the division, but hate that it is to the yankees. He makes the already sick yankee lineup even sicker. They are the favorites to win the '10 World Series regardless of this deal being made, however, it truly is a crap shoot once you get to the postseason. And if they have Sabathia, Petite, and Burnett all healthy and pitching well again once October rolls around then it would be a modern day miracle.

EndemicSox
12-11-2009, 12:49 PM
After signing Granderson to that big contract in spring training, I think the Tigers are cutting losses, so to speak, as Granderson had a bad year. .327 OBP just 'aint going to cut it, especially after getting that big contract. Getting Scherzer was a steal, imo...