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duke of dorwood
06-11-2002, 04:17 PM
Per Bruce Levine on AM 1000

LongDistanceFan
06-11-2002, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Per Bruce Levine on AM 1000 bout freaking time...... who is the closer?

neal
06-11-2002, 04:19 PM
no way... you mean out of the closer role or to the minors?

duke of dorwood
06-11-2002, 04:19 PM
Manager has not said. Weaver?

Jerry_Manuel
06-11-2002, 04:19 PM
Bad move. Foulke is the last guy I want to see coming into a situation like Wunsch did last night. Yikes!

Did Levine say anything about Weaver?

Jerry_Manuel
06-11-2002, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by neal
no way... you mean out of the closer role or to the minors?

I'm sure he means out of the closer role. If he was sent to the minors, there would be a story about it from the AP, or something.

duke of dorwood
06-11-2002, 04:23 PM
Here's his chance to start?

duke of dorwood
06-11-2002, 04:24 PM
Will this last as long as the Clayton benching?

Jerry_Manuel
06-11-2002, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Here's his chance to start?

No, he would need at least half a season to build his arm strength back up. Maybe next season they'll look that route, but not now.

Jerry_Manuel
06-11-2002, 04:26 PM
Something else I wanted to add.

Williams told the Daily Herald this morning, that there's no need to panic at this time. Yet, the team demotes their high priced closer. They are panicing yet at the same time, telling us that everything will be ok. Brutal.

LongDistanceFan
06-11-2002, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Something else I wanted to add.

Williams told the Daily Herald this morning, that there's no need to panic at this time. Yet, the team demotes their high priced closer. They are panicing yet at the same time, telling us that everything will be ok. Brutal. good point........ didn't really think of that.

Daver
06-11-2002, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Something else I wanted to add.

Williams told the Daily Herald this morning, that there's no need to panic at this time. Yet, the team demotes their high priced closer. They are panicing yet at the same time, telling us that everything will be ok. Brutal.

Demoting your closer for ineffectiveness is not panicing,it is teaching the player than no ones job is untouchable.

neal
06-11-2002, 04:35 PM
He's not getting the job done, take him out of the role, I think it's a very good desicion.

Jerry_Manuel
06-11-2002, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by daver
Demoting your closer for ineffectiveness is not panicing,it is teaching the player than no ones job is untouchable.

That's not the case here. If it was Royce would really be on the bench, Lee would really be on the bench. Whatever. I don't care anymore.

hold2dibber
06-11-2002, 04:43 PM
I don't think it is a bad move, although in the long run, I think Foulke is going to be the closer. But give him a chance to work out his kinks in non-game threatening situations, so he can get his accuracy and the release on his change-up back without giving away games.

The big question is who steps in in the interim. My guess is Biddle or Marte. I think I'd prefer Biddle of the two. (Although in the longer term, I see Wright as a potential closer).

WinningUgly!
06-11-2002, 04:50 PM
I don't like it...I don't like it at all! This team, both players and coaching staff, is loaded with guys not getting their job done. Granted, Foulke hasn't been exactly earning his keep lately, but he's not as guilty of killing this team as a few others are. Foulke's getting the same shaft that Sean Lowe got last year when he was sent down. :angry:

Randar68
06-11-2002, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
I don't think it is a bad move, although in the long run, I think Foulke is going to be the closer. But give him a chance to work out his kinks in non-game threatening situations, so he can get his accuracy and the release on his change-up back without giving away games.

The big question is who steps in in the interim. My guess is Biddle or Marte. I think I'd prefer Biddle of the two. (Although in the longer term, I see Wright as a potential closer).

GINTER! GINTER! GINTER!

He's been groomed as one for a couple years now, let's see if he can cut it. If so, trade Foulke!

ma-gaga
06-11-2002, 04:55 PM
yeesh. I've seen this work both ways. If you have someone in the wings ready to assume the role, this is a great move. I've also seen this to try and settle down the pitcher so he gets his confidence back.

I don't see the second way working as often as the first. Is there someone ready to take the closer role? I know that the Sox have their newly signed Ringer Royce, but nobodies THAT stupid to throw him in there this quickly.

:KW
"you don't know who your talking to/about."

This sounds like a panic move. Hopefully Foulke will turn it around. He's being paid enough.

:)

Foulke You
06-11-2002, 04:56 PM
I'm not so sure this is the right move but we'll see. I just don't know about Biddle or Marte closing out games. Hopefully Foulkey will get sharp coming in middle relief situations and regain the great control we're used to seeing from him.

Randar68
06-11-2002, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
I don't like it...I don't like it at all! This team, both players and coaching staff, is loaded with guys not getting their job done. Granted, Foulke hasn't been exactly earning his keep lately, but he's not as guilty of killing this team as a few others are. Foulke's getting the same shaft that Sean Lowe got last year when he was sent down. :angry:

Foulke's sporting a nice 5.26 ERA, an 0-4 record, and has given up more hits than IP.....

Yeah, he's been getting it done all right....

LongDistanceFan
06-11-2002, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga
yeesh. I've seen this work both ways. If you have someone in the wings ready to assume the role, this is a great move. I've also seen this to try and settle down the pitcher so he gets his confidence back.

I don't see the second way working as often as the first. Is there someone ready to take the closer role? I know that the Sox have their newly signed Ringer Royce, but nobodies THAT stupid to throw him in there this quickly.

:KW
"you don't know who your talking to/about."

This sounds like a panic move. Hopefully Foulke will turn it around. He's being paid enough.

:) i think its a good move to get his mech in the groove again..... but if they think gascan can be the closer...... they are sadly mistaken........ ginter in my guess and i hope he does well and that they are not showcasing him.....

ISUSoxfan
06-11-2002, 05:08 PM
I want to see Howry given his closer role back. He was our closer until he was suspended for defending his teammates in the 2000 Brawl. Foulke got his opportunity to close in Detroit when Howry was serving his suspension, and Foulke came through, so JM stuck with him. Until then it was Howry's job, and now it's time to give it back to him.

Randar68
06-11-2002, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by ISUSoxfan
I want to see Howry given his closer role back. He was our closer until he was suspended for defending his teammates in the 2000 Brawl. Foulke got his opportunity to close in Detroit when Howry was serving his suspension, and Foulke came through, so JM stuck with him. Until then it was Howry's job, and now it's time to give it back to him.

uhhhhh, no....It was Foulke's job prior to that.

hold2dibber
06-11-2002, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


GINTER! GINTER! GINTER!

He's been groomed as one for a couple years now, let's see if he can cut it. If so, trade Foulke!

Has Ginter ever closed in the minors (or in college)? Does he have an "out pitch" that all effective closers seem to have (Foulke: changeup; Rivera: cut fastball)? From what you know, is there reason to think he has the mentality (i.e., the stones) to be an effective closer?

ISUSoxfan
06-11-2002, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


uhhhhh, no....It was Foulke's job prior to that.

Foulke was our set up man before that.

MarqSox
06-11-2002, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Something else I wanted to add.

Williams told the Daily Herald this morning, that there's no need to panic at this time. Yet, the team demotes their high priced closer. They are panicing yet at the same time, telling us that everything will be ok. Brutal.

Sounds like a certain American president to me.

Randar68
06-11-2002, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by ISUSoxfan


Foulke was our set up man before that.

Foulke shared closer duty with Howry in the second half of 1999 and had the job full time out of Spring Training in 2000.

MarqSox
06-11-2002, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Foulke shared closer duty with Howry in the second half of 1999 and had the job full time out of Spring Training in 2000.

If I remember correctly, Howry was the closer out of ST in 2000, but Foulke got the job by May. But I could be wrong on that.

spaz
06-11-2002, 05:40 PM
This is a very good thing foulke has already blown to many games this year! however are other options we do have are uncertain at best these are

1 howry- most expercenced option to put here, has worked the closer role before, however that was before surgery and when he was a different pitcher who blew people out with his heat.

2 Marte- A lefthander with his stuff and delivery has to be looked at seriously to close soner or later

3 biddle - this is also a good option since he seems like the type of pitcher to changle batters in will work inside a lot

4 almonte- Bring almonte up this seems sketchy at best since his stats don't look that great this year in, however it would provide the sox the ability to see what he has before royce ring arrives eta next year

well that's my thoughts on the matter!

ode to veeck
06-11-2002, 05:42 PM
Overall this move is too much tinkering for my taste, especially since the bigger reason the sox have been losing has much more to do with lack of offense vs the majors leading offense they were kicking out during the 15-7 streak. Within the context of bench/unbench Royce crap the last week, JR and KW come off more and more as clueless tinkerers--way too many moves for a team that looked pretty solid in spring training and again through weeks 3 through 8 or so of the season so far.

I'm not convinced Howry or Ginter have what it takes as a closer. Howry just can't seem to get the big outs sometimes, and tends to walk the first guy he sees. Biddle likely has what it takes, but I see him much more as the needed additional starter further down in his recovery--right now with his velocity still on the way back, he's not the best match for the closer role

Marte might be the one legitimate guy I'd see working out in the closer role--he's been very effective in many of his appearances this year, even in tight situations

LongDistanceFan
06-11-2002, 05:43 PM
when was howry operation?

ref to marte.......... does anybody have any concern about him. i mean he was ready to be cut from the pit this season and yet poster are talking about making him our closer.

Daver
06-11-2002, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by spaz
This is a very good thing foulke has already blown to many games this year! however are other options we do have are uncertain at best these are

1 howry- most expercenced option to put here, has worked the closer role before, however that was before surgery and when he was a different pitcher who blew people out with his heat.

2 Marte- A lefthander with his stuff and delivery has to be looked at seriously to close soner or later

3 biddle - this is also a good option since he seems like the type of pitcher to changle batters in will work inside a lot

4 almonte- Bring almonte up this seems sketchy at best since his stats don't look that great this year in, however it would provide the sox the ability to see what he has before royce ring arrives eta next year

well that's my thoughts on the matter!

With the impending strike you will not see any minor leaguers getting any service time in the bigs.

Daver
06-11-2002, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
when was howry operation?

ref to marte.......... does anybody have any concern about him. i mean he was ready to be cut from the pit this season and yet poster are talking about making him our closer.

He was not going to be cut,they were going to try and get him to clear waivers so they could assign him to the minors.

pudge
06-11-2002, 05:49 PM
We've had these closer discussions a lot on this board this season, for those who think Foulke doesn't deserve the demotion, you're nuts - he has blown his share of games when the offense *was* clicking... since it's not clicking now, all the more reason we need an effective closer... I say go with Ginter, but frankly, I don't care who they try, as long as they keep trying until they find the right guy, even if that takes all season. I'm also excited by the possibility of Foulke adding some value as either a middle man or possible starter down the road...

foulkesfan11
06-11-2002, 05:51 PM
I agree that Foulke should be demoted. I don't know if it's his lack of work that has caused him to suck so bad lately. Late last season, he choked an awful lot too. Must be nice to get paid that much and still stink. Hopefully getting work in middle relief will help him out.

LongDistanceFan
06-11-2002, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by daver


He was not going to be cut,they were going to try and get him to clear waivers so they could assign him to the minors.

i stand corrected but if i remember there was a report out of pit that said there was a pos that he might get cut.......... either way for my concern......... they were trying to assign him to minors and now we are singing his praises and talking about him being our closer

HawkDJ
06-11-2002, 06:01 PM
I'll be very happy if Osuna gets save ops. I think he will surprise most of you and be great. He has alraedy proven he can get us out of trouble Friday even though Carlos screwed up, he kept us in the game. My 2nd choice would be Howry
Consider these stats:
Batters AVG with RISP against....
Foulke- .435 (10-for-23)4 BB
Marte- .333 (9-for-27) 3 BB
Howry- .143 (3-for-21) 5 BB
Osuna- .194 (7-for-36) 4 BB

Batters AVG with bases loaded against...
Foulke- .500 (2-for-4) 0 BB
Marte- .333 (1-for-3) 1 BB
Howry- .333 (1-for-3) 0 BB
Osuna- .000 (0-for-4) 0 BB

hold2dibber
06-11-2002, 06:03 PM
I think the Pitt GM made that comment to help justify the trade -- I don't believe it. And I don't really care, either way, what Pittsburgh thought of him, he has been very good for us (although I'm not at all sure that he is closer material).

hold2dibber
06-11-2002, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by HawkDJ2k2
I'll be very happy if Osuna gets save ops. I think he will surprise most of you and be great. He has alraedy proven he can get us out of trouble Friday even though Carlos screwed up, he kept us in the game. My 2nd choice would be Howry
Consider these stats:
Batters AVG with RISP against....
Foulke- .435 (10-for-23)4 BB
Marte- .333 (9-for-27) 3 BB
Howry- .143 (3-for-21) 5 BB
Osuna- .194 (7-for-36) 4 BB

Batters AVG with bases loaded against...
Foulke- .500 (2-for-4) 0 BB
Marte- .333 (1-for-3) 1 BB
Howry- .333 (1-for-3) 0 BB
Osuna- .000 (0-for-4) 0 BB

But didn't Osuna fail horribly when the Dodgers tried him out as a closer?

LongDistanceFan
06-11-2002, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by hold2dibber
(although I'm not at all sure that he is closer material). and that is my point........... thank you

Daver
06-11-2002, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


i stand corrected but if i remember there was a report out of pit that said there was a pos that he might get cut.......... either way for my concern......... they were trying to assign him to minors and now we are singing his praises and talking about him being our closer

Uhmmm,I'm not talking about making him closer,I would rather see Ginter in that role,or possibly Howry,or by committee depending on the batter,I don't think Marte has a closer mentality.

LongDistanceFan
06-11-2002, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by daver


Uhmmm,I'm not talking about making him closer,I would rather see Ginter in that role,or possibly Howry,or by committee depending on the batter,I don't think Marte has a closer mentality. i wasn't referring that you wanted to make him a closer, but i was referring to those who wanted too....

sorry if you misinterpreted what i was saying.

RedPinStripes
06-11-2002, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by duke of dorwood
Per Bruce Levine on AM 1000

I don't belive a damn word Sox mgt. says about roster moves. Especially Manuel. He never stands by what he says.

ISUSoxfan
06-11-2002, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by MarqSox


If I remember correctly, Howry was the closer out of ST in 2000, but Foulke got the job by May. But I could be wrong on that.
You do remember correctly. Here is a quote from a WSI article at the end of Spring Training in 2000: "We can hope Bobby Howry settles into the closer's role, while Keith Foulke continues as the reliever with the most devastating pitch in the American League."

That was before surgery, but Howry seems to have recovered. I want someone with experience closing against the Cubs. Make Howry the closer for that series, then experiment with the others.

ode to veeck
06-11-2002, 07:03 PM
I don't belive a damn word Sox mgt. says about roster moves. Especially Manuel. He never stands by what he says.

most relevant comment so far in this whole thread

1 vote from Ode for post of the week

Maggliosfan09
06-11-2002, 07:34 PM
try Ginter! he came in the other night and got the job done. why aren't you guys giving him a chance? when has he blown the game like almost every other pitcher on the team?

LongDistanceFan
06-11-2002, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Maggliosfan09
try Ginter! he came in the other night and got the job done. why aren't you guys giving him a chance? when has he blown the game like almost every other pitcher on the team? there is quite a few who are saying give ginter a chance........

raul12
06-11-2002, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by pudge
I'm also excited by the possibility of Foulke adding some value as either a middle man or possible starter down the road...

this really puzzles me since foulke has in the last year or so shown a complete inability to pitch in tie games.

and to think of him as a starter with two pitches....it'd be a nightmare out there.

RedPinStripes
06-11-2002, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by ode to veeck


most relevant comment so far in this whole thread

1 vote from Ode for post of the week

From me to you bud! :gulp: Thanx!

:beer

Iguana775
06-11-2002, 09:34 PM
:kelly

"Next time, Keith, i wont save your butt"

raul12
06-11-2002, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by Iguana775
:kelly

"Next time, Keith, i wont save your butt"

:keith
you know i'm just sucking b/c i wanna be a starter! :whiner: :whiner:

ScottyTheSoxFan
06-11-2002, 09:49 PM
So what if the closer by committee works and we do well. does Foulke still get the job back when he gets his control, does he start, or pitch set up (in '99 he actually got a cy young vote for his pitching in set up role)?

NUCatsFan
06-12-2002, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


I don't belive a damn word Sox mgt. says about roster moves. Especially Manuel. He never stands by what he says.

How about taking from the horse's mouth? He was on ESPNRadio on Monday night (I would have posted on Tuesday, but I've been having problems with WSI for the past few weeks). Here's the summary of his segment

White Sox closer Keith Foulke addressed reports that Keith has been asked to change his role on the team. Foulke told Todd Wright on Monday night's show that some reporters approached him after the team drafted a left-handed reliever. "They asked me about starting .... they took everything I said and combined it into one statement.... I talked to management and Jerry Manuel so that they understand that I'm not looking for a starting job." Keith then went on to say that he and Jerry Manuel have decided that he should take time off from closing for a while to get his confidence back up. He did not mention who would take over as closer until then.

duke of dorwood
06-12-2002, 11:26 AM
"Closer" is just a guy in most cases called on to come in and pitch 1 inning with a lead. A REAL save is what Osuna had to do last night. It's a glamor position-but anyone with a hot hand can do it. The committee thing will work, if the manager doesnt screw it up.

guillen4life13
06-12-2002, 12:20 PM
hey guys. i just wanted to say that while bobby howry gave up 2 earned runs yesterday, his fastball seemed like it had quite a bite to it. I haven't seen him pitch that well in some time now. I'm starting to believe in this guy again. when's the last time his fastball was clocked? that doesn't look like it's only in the high '80s. He looks like he's lighting it up, and his breaking pitches have really good movement.

osuna came in and did his job, and we must commend him for that.

I'm not too optimistic about having a left-handed closer, because that takes him away as an option that you might need if kelly is tired out, etc. He could be the bridge/setup man... but not closer. anyways this guy has not proven himself before what he's shown us for less than only 3 months.

Osuna has done a pretty good job this year also, but IMO Howry has been better, and howry has experience on his side. Have Foulke set up again... and this would be a really nice hold-save team.

tell me what you think.

hold2dibber
06-12-2002, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
hey guys. i just wanted to say that while bobby howry gave up 2 earned runs yesterday, his fastball seemed like it had quite a bite to it. I haven't seen him pitch that well in some time now. I'm starting to believe in this guy again. when's the last time his fastball was clocked? that doesn't look like it's only in the high '80s. He looks like he's lighting it up, and his breaking pitches have really good movement.

osuna came in and did his job, and we must commend him for that.

I'm not too optimistic about having a left-handed closer, because that takes him away as an option that you might need if kelly is tired out, etc. He could be the bridge/setup man... but not closer. anyways this guy has not proven himself before what he's shown us for less than only 3 months.

Osuna has done a pretty good job this year also, but IMO Howry has been better, and howry has experience on his side. Have Foulke set up again... and this would be a really nice hold-save team.

tell me what you think.

I think they should use a closer-by-committee approach. I wouldn't hold off on using Marte in 7th and 8th inning situations that he is well suited for just to save him to close the game, but if we go to the ninth with a one or two run lead and the match-ups are right, are we havne't used him already, use Marte. If Osuna has been riding a hot hand, use him. If Howry's throwing well or if you've used the other guys, use him. Hell, I'd even use Biddle or Ginter on occasion, if the situation made sense.

LongDistanceFan
06-12-2002, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
hey guys. i just wanted to say that while bobby howry gave up 2 earned runs yesterday, his fastball seemed like it had quite a bite to it. I haven't seen him pitch that well in some time now. I'm starting to believe in this guy again. when's the last time his fastball was clocked? that doesn't look like it's only in the high '80s. He looks like he's lighting it up, and his breaking pitches have really good movement.

yup that bite was really good with good movement when the mets hit em :D: