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View Full Version : White Sox will not offer arbitration to Dye, Dotel, Podsednik, or Castro


doublem23
12-01-2009, 01:12 PM
No draft pick compensation for us. Makes sense with Jermaine, though I wouldn't have minded if they offered it to Octavio.

http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2009/12/white-sox-arent-expected-to-offer-salary-arbitration-to-jermaine-dye-three-other-free-agents.html

DirtySox
12-01-2009, 01:17 PM
Boo. I want picks.

I had also hoped to offer arbitration to Dotel. It's understandable why they wouldn't if money is as tight as they say though.

#1swisher
12-01-2009, 01:19 PM
Out of all the names listed, I'll try to be as diplomatic as possible...I won't miss Dotel.

Hitmen77
12-01-2009, 01:29 PM
I was hoping we'd offer arb. to Dotel and get draft picks. But, since he made $6 million last year, realistically I think there's a good chance that he'd take the Sox arbitration offer. What is the minimum he would have gotten in arbitration? I want to say it's 80% of last year's salary.

DirtySox
12-01-2009, 01:31 PM
Quite frankly, I don't understand the Dotel hate on this site. He's been solid the two years he's been here. Not spectacular, but nothing to sneeze at. I think his contributions might be missed next year.

JohnTucker0814
12-01-2009, 01:38 PM
Quite frankly, I don't understand the Dotel hate on this site. He's been solid the two years he's been here. Not spectacular, but nothing to sneeze at. I think his contributions might be missed next year.

I agree... I think it's worth the risk of offering arbitration. Dotel has said he wants to play on the east coast, why not take the chance that he thinks he can find as good of money out there. If he declines we will get two high picks, if he accepts we have 1 more year of a pretty solid reliever.

Craig Grebeck
12-01-2009, 01:42 PM
Quite frankly, I don't understand the Dotel hate on this site. He's been solid the two years he's been here. Not spectacular, but nothing to sneeze at. I think his contributions might be missed next year.
Yeah, the Dotel hatred combined with Jenks reverence makes my head spin.

voodoochile
12-01-2009, 02:06 PM
Why not offer it to Pods? He made 800K last year...:scratch:

I agree on the Dotel thing, but maybe they think they can get him for 2 years $6M instead of 1 year $5M or whatever he'd get...

DirtySox
12-01-2009, 02:10 PM
Why not offer it to Pods? He made 800K last year...:scratch:

I agree on the Dotel thing, but maybe they think they can get him for 2 years $6M instead of 1 year $5M or whatever he'd get...

Because Pods would decline it to explore free agency in hopes of getting a big payday. Pods is a type nothing free agent, so no compensation is involved even if he did decline an arbitration offer.

voodoochile
12-01-2009, 02:13 PM
Because Pods would decline it to explore free agency in hopes of getting a big payday. Pods is a type nothing free agent, so no compensation is involved even if he did decline an arbitration offer.

Well if he's not worth any draft picks then yeah, you don't offer because it's not worth the risk he'd ask for a big payday and hit the jackpot if he wins.

LoveYourSuit
12-01-2009, 02:16 PM
Quite frankly, I don't understand the Dotel hate on this site. He's been solid the two years he's been here. Not spectacular, but nothing to sneeze at. I think his contributions might be missed next year.


+1

IMO Dotels was so much better for us than Jenks was the last 2 seasons.

Sargeant79
12-01-2009, 02:19 PM
I agree... I think it's worth the risk of offering arbitration. Dotel has said he wants to play on the east coast, why not take the chance that he thinks he can find as good of money out there. If he declines we will get two high picks, if he accepts we have 1 more year of a pretty solid reliever.

I completely agree with this. While I understand that we're concerned about money and all, and $5-6 million is nothing to sneeze at if we have as tight of a budget as it appears, I just don't get how either outcome (Dotel accepting or Dotel walking) could have worked out negatively for us.

voodoochile
12-01-2009, 02:19 PM
People tend to remember the bad things that happen more than they remember the everyday successes. Thus Dotel is remembered for the times he failed last year and not for the times he successfully did his job. It matters not if that ratio is heavily weighted in the "successful" category (which it is).

Balfanman
12-01-2009, 02:43 PM
I really believe that we should offer arbitration to Dotel. When you think about it, the very worst that happens is he accepts and he would still be a long way from the most overpaid player / per production on this team.

asindc
12-01-2009, 02:52 PM
I'm ambivalent about Dotel. I don't mind that the Sox did not offer him arbitration, but if they had I would not have been upset about it.

Dibbs
12-01-2009, 02:53 PM
I like Octavio a lot. He has pitched very well. It is nice to bring a guy in from the bullpen who can strike guys out in a tough situation. He is the most valuable to us on that list. Oh well, 2010 could be another long year.

oeo
12-01-2009, 02:56 PM
Quite frankly, I don't understand the Dotel hate on this site. He's been solid the two years he's been here. Not spectacular, but nothing to sneeze at. I think his contributions might be missed next year.

Yup. People don't realize how much we're going to miss him.

CWSpalehoseCWS
12-01-2009, 04:06 PM
Quite frankly, I don't understand the Dotel hate on this site. He's been solid the two years he's been here. Not spectacular, but nothing to sneeze at. I think his contributions might be missed next year.

I'm with you. Dotel was very solid as a 7th inning guy.

jabrch
12-01-2009, 05:13 PM
I'd have offered Dotel and Dye.

I assume both will leave for multi-year deals.

KenBerryGrab
12-01-2009, 05:14 PM
I'd have offered Dotel and Dye.

I assume both will leave for multi-year deals.

If they had offered it to Dye, they'd be on the hook for much more than he's worth at this point.

Craig Grebeck
12-01-2009, 05:28 PM
Jabs, you'd offer arbitration to Dye? Good grief.

PalehosePlanet
12-01-2009, 05:37 PM
People tend to remember the bad things that happen more than they remember the everyday successes. Thus Dotel is remembered for the times he failed last year and not for the times he successfully did his job. It matters not if that ratio is heavily weighted in the "successful" category (which it is).

This is absolutely true and annoys the hell out of me.

Do you remember a few months ago someone started a thread about the most hated (or worst?) Sox players of all time? Time and time again I was shocked to see Damaso Marte's name pop up when in actuality he was a very good setup man and sometime closer for us for four years. In fact his 1.58 ERA in 79+ innings back in '03 not only kept us in the race but might have been the best effort out of our pen in 30 years or so. Yet people only remember his blowup w/Ozzie late in '05 as well walking the bases full before El Duque bailed him out in the playoffs.

As for Dotel, we'll definitely miss him. I doubt he settles for, as you suggested, a 2 yr/6 million type of offer. The Cubs unfortunately saw fit to give John Grabow '07 FA money instead of using the '08 scale. If a barely above average RP gets 3.75 mill per year I'm afraid Octavio will demand a lot more. KW was blamed for setting to high a comp/standard in '07 for RP's (Dotel and Linebrink at 5 mill per); this time it's Hendry who has seemingly tilted/inflated the market.

Craig Grebeck
12-01-2009, 05:40 PM
This is absolutely true and annoys the hell out of me.

Do you remember a few months ago someone started a thread about the most hated (or worst?) Sox players of all time? Time and time again I was shocked to see Damaso Marte's name pop up when in actuality he was a very good setup man and sometime closer for us for four years. In fact his 1.58 ERA in 79+ innings back in '03 not only kept us in the race but might have been the best effort out of our pen in 30 years or so. Yet people only remember his blowup w/Ozzie late in '05 as well walking the bases full before El Duque bailed him out in the playoffs.

As for Dotel, we'll definitely miss him. I doubt he settles for, as you suggested, a 2 yr/6 million type of offer. The Cubs unfortunately saw fit to give John Grabow '07 FA money instead of using the '08 scale. If a barely above average RP gets 3.75 mill per year I'm afraid Octavio will demand a lot more. KW was blamed for setting to high a comp/standard in '07 for RP's (Dotel and Linebrink at 5 mill per); this time it's Hendry who has seemingly tilted/inflated the market.
I agree one hundred percent regarding Marte. He was a fine pitcher for this organization who received loads of undue criticism from this fanbase.

oeo
12-01-2009, 05:46 PM
This is absolutely true and annoys the hell out of me.

Do you remember a few months ago someone started a thread about the most hated (or worst?) Sox players of all time? Time and time again I was shocked to see Damaso Marte's name pop up when in actuality he was a very good setup man and sometime closer for us for four years. In fact his 1.58 ERA in 79+ innings back in '03 not only kept us in the race but might have been the best effort out of our pen in 30 years or so. Yet people only remember his blowup w/Ozzie late in '05 as well walking the bases full before El Duque bailed him out in the playoffs.

As for Dotel, we'll definitely miss him. I doubt he settles for, as you suggested, a 2 yr/6 million type of offer. The Cubs unfortunately saw fit to give John Grabow '07 FA money instead of using the '08 scale. If a barely above average RP gets 3.75 mill per year I'm afraid Octavio will demand a lot more. KW was blamed for setting to high a comp/standard in '07 for RP's (Dotel and Linebrink at 5 mill per); this time it's Hendry who has seemingly tilted/inflated the market.

The market was already inflated in 2007 because Hendry overpaid for Howry and Eyre the year before.

Tragg
12-01-2009, 05:52 PM
Dotel was a good pitcher for us. He's an excellent middle reliever. He can get Ks.
He's not the guy you want as an everyday closer, but we used him pretty well and he was effective.

palehozenychicty
12-01-2009, 05:52 PM
I'd have offered it to Dotel. I still think the Sox need to keep strengthening their farm system. But oh well. That's another arm they need this offseason.

Lip Man 1
12-01-2009, 06:34 PM
It's hard to tell what to think at this point in time because we don't know what Kenny may be planning. I do think though that you can never have enough pitching, good arms in the bullpen is a tough commodity to get.

I'd have offered Dotel and think he'll be missed in the long run.

The others...thanks to JD and Pods for 2005...but time to move along.

Lip

Ward Hershberger
12-01-2009, 06:44 PM
This is absolutely true and annoys the hell out of me.

Do you remember a few months ago someone started a thread about the most hated (or worst?) Sox players of all time? Time and time again I was shocked to see Damaso Marte's name pop up when in actuality he was a very good setup man and sometime closer for us for four years. In fact his 1.58 ERA in 79+ innings back in '03 not only kept us in the race but might have been the best effort out of our pen in 30 years or so. Yet people only remember his blowup w/Ozzie late in '05 as well walking the bases full before El Duque bailed him out in the playoffs.

As for Dotel, we'll definitely miss him. I doubt he settles for, as you suggested, a 2 yr/6 million type of offer. The Cubs unfortunately saw fit to give John Grabow '07 FA money instead of using the '08 scale. If a barely above average RP gets 3.75 mill per year I'm afraid Octavio will demand a lot more. KW was blamed for setting to high a comp/standard in '07 for RP's (Dotel and Linebrink at 5 mill per); this time it's Hendry who has seemingly tilted/inflated the market.
I will say Dotel has never been afraid to attack any hitter - unlike Marte who **** his pants facing Cubs (Todd Walker?) and forced in the winning run - could never forgive him for that one

soxinem1
12-01-2009, 06:44 PM
It's hard to tell what to think at this point in time because we don't know what Kenny may be planning. I do think though that you can never have enough pitching, good arms in the bullpen is a tough commodity to get.

I'd have offered Dotel and think he'll be missed in the long run.

The others...thanks to JD and Pods for 2005...but time to move along.

Lip

It would also cost a ton to keep Dye. I do not see how offering him would have even been an option.

But Dotel would have been win/win, IMO. If he accepts he stays for a little more than he was being paid, if he goes (which I think he wants to) we get a pick.

tm1119
12-01-2009, 07:41 PM
People are missing the point that some team actually has to want to sign Dotel as well. And assuming he does reject arbitration, that implies that there is a team willing to not only sign Dotel for around 6 million dollars per year, but also give up draft picks in the process. Very, very unlikely that that happens. I wouldnt mind Dotel back, but 6 mil is too much in my opinion. We have other needs.

oeo
12-01-2009, 07:50 PM
People are missing the point that some team actually has to want to sign Dotel as well. And assuming he does reject arbitration, that implies that there is a team willing to not only sign Dotel for around 6 million dollars per year, but also give up draft picks in the process. Very, very unlikely that that happens. I wouldnt mind Dotel back, but 6 mil is too much in my opinion. We have other needs.

Around $6 million? Where is that number coming from?

This is a bad point, if no one signed him (highly unlikely), then oh well, we lost nothing. If he accepts arbitration and we have to swallow some money, oh well again. The bullpen is going to take a big hit losing him.

tm1119
12-01-2009, 08:24 PM
Around $6 million? Where is that number coming from?

This is a bad point, if no one signed him (highly unlikely), then oh well, we lost nothing. If he accepts arbitration and we have to swallow some money, oh well again. The bullpen is going to take a big hit losing him.

Because thats what he made last season, and hes not going to accept arbitration for anything much less. And if he turns down an offer in the 5-6 mil range from us why would he go anywhere else for less? Im not saying that Dotel will get a 6 mil offer, but that is the range we would have to offer him in arbitration.

BadBobbyJenks
12-01-2009, 08:47 PM
Kenny says we have in house options for every position. http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091201&content_id=7735390&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

DirtySox
12-01-2009, 08:58 PM
Kenny says we have in house options for every position. http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091201&content_id=7735390&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

At least he didn't claim they were good options.

The only internal options I like are Hudson and maybe Nunez/Santeliz to fill out the bullpen.

oeo
12-01-2009, 09:13 PM
Because thats what he made last season, and hes not going to accept arbitration for anything much less. And if he turns down an offer in the 5-6 mil range from us why would he go anywhere else for less? Im not saying that Dotel will get a 6 mil offer, but that is the range we would have to offer him in arbitration.

You said rejecting arbitration implies he will get that kind of offer elsewhere. Rejection does not imply anything, Dotel would not know what kind of money would be offered until after he rejected arbitration. If the question is whether we should have taken the risk of him accepting, then yes, I still think they should have done it.

oeo
12-01-2009, 09:13 PM
At least he didn't claim they were good options.

The only internal options I like are Hudson and maybe Nunez/Santeliz to fill out the bullpen.

Tony Pena better get his **** together. If all we're going to do is look at internal options, this bullpen is going to be extremely risky. It has the potential to be worse than 2007.

Kenny needs to get a couple arms and a big bat, otherwise this rotation is going to go to waste.

Bucky F. Dent
12-01-2009, 09:28 PM
I agree... I think it's worth the risk of offering arbitration. Dotel has said he wants to play on the east coast, why not take the chance that he thinks he can find as good of money out there. If he declines we will get two high picks, if he accepts we have 1 more year of a pretty solid reliever.


Agreed.

tm1119
12-01-2009, 09:30 PM
You said rejecting arbitration implies he will get that kind of offer elsewhere. Rejection does not imply anything, Dotel would not know what kind of money would be offered until after he rejected arbitration. If the question is whether we should have taken the risk of him accepting, then yes, I still think they should have done it.

Yeah but Dotel's agents is going to know damn well that he wont get near that money on the open market. I guess it depends on Dotel's priorities, but if hes like most people hes going to take the 2-3 million more he can get from us.
I dont think you realize that we really might now be able to afford Dotel without giving up someone else. Would you rather keep Dotel, but get rid of Jenks? I agree that our bullpen may be a problem, but DH and RF/CF is much more important in my opinion. There are other arms that could match Dotel's output available for much less than 6mil.

oeo
12-01-2009, 09:40 PM
Yeah but Dotel's agents is going to know damn well that he wont get near that money on the open market. I guess it depends on Dotel's priorities, but if hes like most people hes going to take the 2-3 million more he can get from us.
I dont think you realize that we really might now be able to afford Dotel without giving up someone else. Would you rather keep Dotel, but get rid of Jenks? I agree that our bullpen may be a problem, but DH and RF/CF is much more important in my opinion. There are other arms that could match Dotel's output available for much less than 6mil.

Quite honestly, yes. I think Dotel at that money is worth it more than Jenks at the money he will get. Jenks had some scary splits last year, which may be a red flag. I don't think Jenks will be closing for the Sox by the end of the year.

tm1119
12-01-2009, 09:54 PM
Quite honestly, yes. I think Dotel at that money is worth it more than Jenks at the money he will get. Jenks had some scary splits last year, which may be a red flag. I don't think Jenks will be closing for the Sox by the end of the year.

Even if the difference in salary is only about 1 million? Jenks is going to get a raise, sure, but it wont put him too much ahead of what Dotel would make in arbitration. I am a little skeptical of Jenks my self, but Dotel wasnt exactly rock solid himself. If the money difference was several million than I could see your point, but I dont think it will be.

russ99
12-01-2009, 11:15 PM
Tony Pena better get his **** together. If all we're going to do is look at internal options, this bullpen is going to be extremely risky. It has the potential to be worse than 2007.

Kenny needs to get a couple arms and a big bat, otherwise this rotation is going to go to waste.

No worries. Kenny said that he has internal options. Not that he was going to stick with them.

I expect Kenny to be quite active.

Sox
12-02-2009, 03:35 AM
After the year that Scotty Pods had last year I think it would be a mistake not to bring Pods back......I would like to see him finish his career with the White Sox. I guess I must be the only one that feels this way.:gosox:

:facepalm:

Craig Grebeck
12-02-2009, 05:31 AM
After the year that Scotty Pods had last year I think it would be a mistake not to bring Pods back......I would like to see him finish his career with the White Sox. I guess I must be the only one that feels this way.:gosox:

:facepalm:
Why are so many people exhilarated by the idea of a player finishing his career here? Doesn't that imply said player will fall off a cliff and be unproductive? I'd rather see Scotty be a below average player elsewhere.

Moses_Scurry
12-02-2009, 07:35 AM
Why are so many people exhilarated by the idea of a player finishing his career here? Doesn't that imply said player will fall off a cliff and be unproductive? I'd rather see Scotty be a below average player elsewhere.

Totally agree, especially when you factor in that Pods has only had 2 good years as a member of the team and only 3 years total. I can understand wanting somebody like Frank Thomas who was on the team forever and also really good to finish their career here for sentimental reasons, even if they've declined way too far.

I realize that Pods was a major player for the 2005 team, but so were a lot of other people. Does anybody want Neil Cotts and Cliff Politte to come back to "finish their career here"??

Waysouthsider
12-02-2009, 07:43 AM
....all of the business guys seem pretty convinced that arbitration is going to produce FAR more salary for players than the open market will meaning that its pretty likely that O.D. would accept arbitration...

Pods was hitting well last year but let's not forget his defense and running problems...what's the likelihood that he'll come back as strong this year? I don't think teams will be running to grab him with all of the talent on the market...he was sitting on the damned couch last year! If the Sox want him, I'm betting he'll still be around later....

slavko
12-02-2009, 11:53 AM
I realize that Pods was a major player for the 2005 team, but so were a lot of other people. Does anybody want Neil Cotts and Cliff Politte to come back to "finish their career here"??


In the sense of having any use on a baseball field, they did.

aryzner
12-02-2009, 12:06 PM
There are 2 players on the team right now that I would really, really love to see finish their careers with the White Sox. (But it would not kill me if they did not)

Mark Buehrle and Paul Konerko

g0g0
12-02-2009, 12:30 PM
I would really want Bengie Molina as he wasn't offered arbitration either. Him and Tejada.

tm1119
12-02-2009, 12:48 PM
I would really want Bengie Molina as he wasn't offered arbitration either. Him and Tejada.

Why Bengie Molina? His bat is good for a catcher, but we have AJ. Hes no where near the hitter to play DH, and not mention he very well may be the slowest human being on earth. I thought we were trying to get younger and more athletic?
Tejada wouldn't be a bad option as only a 1 year deal if we cant find a suitable OF'er. 3B- Tejada, 2B- Backham, RF- Teahen. We still wouldnt have a lead off man and Teahen's bat is pretty weak for RF.
I think we could do better than both of those options.

TheVulture
12-04-2009, 01:08 AM
Isn't it possible KW declined arbitration to Dotel because he wants to sign him to a cheaper contract than he would get in arbitration? With the shape of the bullpen, it seems like it'd be a big loss when you need 6-7 arms out there.

NLaloosh
12-04-2009, 02:32 AM
I will not miss Dotel. He is very overpaid and really performed poorly in pressure situations.

Craig Grebeck
12-04-2009, 04:17 AM
I will not miss Dotel. He is very overpaid and really performed poorly in pressure situations.
According to Baseball Reference's splits, Octavio performed wonderfully in "high leverage" situations.

Sargeant79
12-04-2009, 09:51 AM
I will not miss Dotel. He is very overpaid and really performed poorly in pressure situations.

You may not miss him, but the rest of this is just incorrect. As has been pointed out in other posts, the bad sticks out in our minds more than the times than he came in and did his job. There were a lot of times in the last two years where Dotel came into the game in a situation where a strikeout was needed and that was exactly what he delivered.

wilburaga
12-04-2009, 11:14 AM
You may not miss him, but the rest of this is just incorrect. As has been pointed out in other posts, the bad sticks out in our minds more than the times than he came in and did his job. There were a lot of times in the last two years where Dotel came into the game in a situation where a strikeout was needed and that was exactly what he delivered.

I agree, I think it was a mistake not to offer Dotel arbitration. I don't know if he's valuable enough to other teams to warrant the forfeiture of two draft picks, so I think he'd be inclined to accept arbitration from the Sox. So we'd have a veteran, tested reliever at market rate (or a little above) rather than an untested rookie who is most likely to replace him. If we really don't want to pay Dotel, we could always trade him and at least get something.

W

KenBerryGrab
12-04-2009, 12:09 PM
Dotel was one of the few guys who consistently did his job out of the pen.
His departure will leave a hole, that's for sure.

NLaloosh
12-04-2009, 02:59 PM
Dotel was one of the few guys who consistently did his job out of the pen.
His departure will leave a hole, that's for sure.

I must have been watching different games than you were. I never felt comfortable when he came out of the pen and it seemed like he gave up the inevitable home run when the game was on the line.

I rarely saw him come through in a high pressure situation. That's why no team would let him close after his massive failures in that role years ago.

I think he's a decent 7th inning guy. That's not worth $ 6 mil. to me.

Redus Redux
12-04-2009, 03:03 PM
I will not miss Dotel. He is very overpaid and really performed poorly in pressure situations.

Dotel had a lot of arm. You'll miss it one day I'd bet.

LoveYourSuit
12-04-2009, 03:15 PM
Dotel was the second best pitcher out of our pen the last two season.

Is he worth $6 million, maybe not based on today's market. But you still have to find a way to replace a quality arm like he was regardless the price tag.


I am very concerned about the Sox bullpen if no one else is added here. Pena, Linebrink, Jenks is a very scarry proposition.