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DirtySox
11-22-2009, 12:55 PM
The Rangers have shown interest as well.

Under the "Trade Winds" portion:

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/baseball/rays/tampa-bay-rays-plan-to-be-aggressive-in-addressing-bullpen-catcher/1053598

GoGoCrede
11-22-2009, 12:58 PM
Wasn't he benched at one point in 2008 by Maddon for dogging it? Has he been better about it since then? I didn't follow him last season.

DirtySox
11-22-2009, 01:00 PM
Wasn't he benched at one point in 2008 by Maddon for dogging it? Has he been better about it since then? I didn't follow him last season.

I believe he has been benched a few times with the Rays for reasons such as those. He had a poor 2009, but it might be attributed to recovering from injuries/surgery.

TDog
11-22-2009, 01:49 PM
He seemed to be the most dangerous hitter against the Sox in the 2008 ALDS, for what that's worth. Dewayne Wise seemed the most dangerous hitter against the Rays in the 2008 ALDS.

PalehosePlanet
11-22-2009, 01:52 PM
I believe he has been benched a few times with the Rays for reasons such as those. He had a poor 2009, but it might be attributed to recovering from injuries/surgery.

Which is why this is the perfect time to try and trade for him. The Swisher trade notwithstanding, KW has been excellent at buying low on highly talented players.

Still, I don't think a talent like Upton will come cheap.

DirtySox
11-22-2009, 02:00 PM
I wonder if the Rays think Desmond Jennings is ready to take over for Upton. He was spectacular last year.

LITTLE NELL
11-22-2009, 02:02 PM
I watch a lot of Rays games and I don't care for his attitude. Swings at a lot of bad pitches. I pass.

NardiWasHere
11-22-2009, 02:05 PM
Ugh. He's a lazy bum.

JermaineDye05
11-22-2009, 02:16 PM
I watch a lot of Rays games and I don't care for his attitude. Swings at a lot of bad pitches. I pass.

Yeah, but I wonder if Ozzie could possibly whip him into shape.

The guy has some great tools, he's fast, has power, great CF'er, and in the words of Frank Costanza: "He's got a rocket for an arm" if you don't want BJ then "you don't know what the hell you're doing!"

Boondock Saint
11-22-2009, 02:20 PM
Talented + lazy = Not talented + lazy

oeo
11-22-2009, 02:22 PM
Talented + lazy = Not talented + lazy

Not talented and lazy doesn't make it to the major leagues. Sounds like a young guy that just needs to be motivated, a lot like Rios, who came on at the end of the year. I can't think of a guy that hasn't played hard for Ozzie yet.

At the very least we would be getting a great CF'er and 45 stolen bases. At best, a possible MVP candidate in the future.

ViPeRx007
11-22-2009, 02:34 PM
Umm, yes please? The guy has wheels which this team needs after trading Getz and probably not having Podsednik (I don't know if that is for sure or not yet).

Unless of course we're going with the whole HR or nothing approach again which has worked so well for us.

soxinem1
11-22-2009, 02:43 PM
BJ Upton is just a lower-salaried version of Milton Bradley.

If I want a hot dog I'll buy one at the concession stand. I sure don't want to see it walking around on the field.

Sargeant79
11-22-2009, 02:55 PM
BJ Upton is just a lower-salaried version of Milton Bradley.

If I want a hot dog I'll buy one at the concession stand. I sure don't want to see it walking around on the field.

C'mon now...Upton doesn't belong in the same sentence as Milton Bradley when it comes to problems.

BleacherBandit
11-22-2009, 03:42 PM
Can we try to get Justin Upton instead?

EMachine10
11-22-2009, 04:10 PM
So he dogs it once or twice and he's now the most disgusting player in baseball? He's an extremely talented player who needed a little kick in the pants two seasons ago. Big deal. People just love to complain. :rolleyes:

JohnTucker0814
11-22-2009, 04:17 PM
I'd love to have B.J. Upton patrolling CF for the next 5-10 years!

oeo
11-22-2009, 04:25 PM
BJ Upton is just a lower-salaried version of Milton Bradley.

Where is that coming from? Not even close.

If I want a hot dog I'll buy one at the concession stand. I sure don't want to see it walking around on the field.

I want to see good players on the Sox. If they want to hot dog after they do something good, go right ahead. Do you complain when AJ does it? How about when Quentin flips his bat? Alexei's slam in the last game of 2008? Are you going to be mad when Peavy does it after a big strikeout?

GoGoCrede
11-22-2009, 05:13 PM
I want to see good players on the Sox. If they want to hot dog after they do something good, go right ahead. Do you complain when AJ does it? How about when Quentin flips his bat? Alexei's slam in the last game of 2008? Are you going to be mad when Peavy does it after a big strikeout?

I always find it amusing when a bad player like Gomez hot dogs it. Glad he's going to slide into first base in another division.

goon
11-22-2009, 05:29 PM
You people are insane. I'd take BJ Upton in a heartbeat.

DrCrawdad
11-22-2009, 06:17 PM
Don't most guys in their early 20's need a kick in the (butt) routinely?

The Immigrant
11-22-2009, 06:48 PM
You people are insane. I'd take BJ Upton in a heartbeat.

:nod:

There's some real lunacy in this thread.

soxfandy
11-22-2009, 07:24 PM
from things I have read it really sounds like they want to move upton. They have a ton of prospects already so I'd imagine they would be looking for guys that are big league ready. I know crawford has the better numbers and track record, but the bottom line is u would have to give a ton for one year of him and decide if u want to resign him to big money. With upton u would get a guy with a ton of talent that would have to earn his money and we wouldn't have to trade the farm away. I'll take upton right away!

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-22-2009, 07:36 PM
He would look nice. Depends on what they want for him, but he would solve some holes for this team.

Corlose 15
11-22-2009, 08:18 PM
His OBP (the two years before last) and speed would look awful nice at the top of the order for the Sox. In a way he's a better fit than Crawford.

Pablo_Honey
11-22-2009, 08:48 PM
IIRC, Rays are said to be notorious for demanding ridiculous returns in trades and is not afraid to call it off if the return isn't good enough. Kenny will probably have to include both Flowers and Hudson in the deal. I say no thanks unless Tampa is willing to lower the asking price. Besides, we already have two outfielders coming off terrible seasons hoping to rebound back next season. Hoping for rebound years from those two is one thing, hoping for THREE is another. If we have to gut our farm for a solid bat, it better be A-Gon, whom I doubt would be here anyways.

Taliesinrk
11-22-2009, 09:02 PM
IIRC, Rays are said to be notorious for demanding ridiculous returns in trades and is not afraid to call it off if the return isn't good enough. Kenny will probably have to include both Flowers and Hudson in the deal. I say no thanks unless Tampa is willing to lower the asking price. Besides, we already have two outfielders coming off terrible seasons hoping to rebound back next season. Hoping for rebound years from those two is one thing, hoping for THREE is another. If we have to gut our farm for a solid bat, it better be A-Gon, whom I doubt would be here anyways.

Wouldn't Jenks be part of any deal?

tm1119
11-22-2009, 09:10 PM
IIRC, Rays are said to be notorious for demanding ridiculous returns in trades and is not afraid to call it off if the return isn't good enough. Kenny will probably have to include both Flowers and Hudson in the deal. I say no thanks unless Tampa is willing to lower the asking price. Besides, we already have two outfielders coming off terrible seasons hoping to rebound back next season. Hoping for rebound years from those two is one thing, hoping for THREE is another. If we have to gut our farm for a solid bat, it better be A-Gon, whom I doubt would be here anyways.

You seriously wouldnt trade Flowers and Hudson for a player like Upton? Its not like hes even close to being old or anything. I would do that trade in a heart beat even though the Rays definitely wouldnt.
The only thing I could see working in a trade would be us sending Konerko, Floyd/John Danks, and Flowers for Burrell and Upton. The Rays are already regretting the Burrell contract and want a better hitter for the DH spot. Another SP also would hurt for the Rays either. We would then have to play Teahen at 1B and Burrell at DH leaving a hole at 3B and forcing us to start Hudson. Not sure if I would do a deal like that though.

Frater Perdurabo
11-22-2009, 09:33 PM
You seriously wouldnt trade Flowers and Hudson for a player like Upton? Its not like hes even close to being old or anything. I would do that trade in a heart beat even though the Rays definitely wouldnt.
The only thing I could see working in a trade would be us sending Konerko, Floyd/John Danks, and Flowers for Burrell and Upton. The Rays are already regretting the Burrell contract and want a better hitter for the DH spot. Another SP also would hurt for the Rays either. We would then have to play Teahen at 1B and Burrell at DH leaving a hole at 3B and forcing us to start Hudson. Not sure if I would do a deal like that though.

Konerko probably wouldn't waive his NTC to go to Tampa.

Also, in that scenario, you put Beckham back at 3B and start Nix at 2B.

doublem23
11-22-2009, 09:39 PM
Konerko probably wouldn't waive his NTC to go to Tampa.

Also, in that scenario, you put Beckham back at 3B and start Nix at 2B.

:puking:

VMSNS
11-22-2009, 09:46 PM
you people are insane. I'd take bj upton in a heartbeat.

+1

tm1119
11-22-2009, 09:55 PM
Konerko probably wouldn't waive his NTC to go to Tampa.

Also, in that scenario, you put Beckham back at 3B and start Nix at 2B.

3b- Teahen, 2b- Beckham 1B- Kotsay would be a better option. Hell even starting Vizquel would be better than Nix, at least we would be getting good D.

Doesnt really matter though cause its not actually going to happen.

soxinem1
11-22-2009, 10:11 PM
Where is that coming from? Not even close.



I want to see good players on the Sox. If they want to hot dog after they do something good, go right ahead. Do you complain when AJ does it? How about when Quentin flips his bat? Alexei's slam in the last game of 2008? Are you going to be mad when Peavy does it after a big strikeout?

Cockiness and hot dogging are two different things.

Upton, like Bradley, is a talent, but they both have traits we do not need.

JohnTucker0814
11-22-2009, 11:09 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing them send Burrell with to make the price tag lower for Upton. TB gets rid of a contract they are desperate to get rid of and we don't have to send as many prospects. Plus that fills our DH role, Burrell can hit for power, and he's not going to clog the bases like a Thome/Konerko.

Line-up if both Burrell/Upton:

1. Upton - CF
2. Ramirez - SS
3. Beckham - 2B
4. Quentin - LF
5. Konerko - 1B
6. Pierzynski - C
7. Burrell - DH
8. Teahen - 3B
9. Rios - RF

palehozenychicty
11-22-2009, 11:12 PM
I'll take BJ Upton on this team tomorrow, next week, and next year. If he won't play hard here, he gone.

JermaineDye05
11-22-2009, 11:13 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing them send Burrell with to make the price tag lower for Upton. TB gets rid of a contract they are desperate to get rid of and we don't have to send as many prospects. Plus that fills our DH role, Burrell can hit for power, and he's not going to clog the bases like a Thome/Konerko.

Line-up if both Burrell/Upton:

1. Upton - CF
2. Ramirez - SS
3. Beckham - 2B
4. Quentin - LF
5. Konerko - 1B
6. Pierzynski - C
7. Burrell - DH
8. Teahen - 3B
9. Rios - RF

I don't think the White Sox have room on the payroll for Burrell.

doublem23
11-22-2009, 11:13 PM
.241/.313/.373 last season.

Coop'll fix him?

I think some of you guys are blinded by what people think he could be, rather than what he has been the last few years. Yeah, I'd probably still take him, but he's not a WE'VE GOT TO GET THIS GUY kind of talent. He fits for us, so he's useful, but he's no game-changer and at worst, he's a spoiled, pouty douche who shrivels when the going gets tough.

doublem23
11-22-2009, 11:15 PM
3b- Teahen, 2b- Beckham 1B- Kotsay would be a better option. Hell even starting Vizquel would be better than Nix, at least we would be getting good D.

Doesnt really matter though cause its not actually going to happen.

We are absolutely not going anywhere next year if Mark Kotsay is being thrust into the starting lineup, I don't care how many Play Station trades we make.

BadBobbyJenks
11-22-2009, 11:15 PM
Cockiness and hot dogging are two different things.

Upton, like Bradley, is a talent, but they both have traits we do not need.

Speed, power and defense! Who needs that?

JohnTucker0814
11-22-2009, 11:28 PM
.241/.313/.373 last season.

Coop'll fix him?

I think some of you guys are blinded by what people think he could be, rather than what he has been the last few years. Yeah, I'd probably still take him, but he's not a WE'VE GOT TO GET THIS GUY kind of talent. He fits for us, so he's useful, but he's no game-changer and at worst, he's a spoiled, pouty douche who shrivels when the going gets tough.

Postseason stats:
16 games 16 runs 7 HR 16 RBI 6 SB 0 CS .288/.333/.652

I don't think that's a shrivel job when the going gets tough. Actually he carried them through the Boston series! GMAB!

DSpivack
11-22-2009, 11:42 PM
IIRC, Rays are said to be notorious for demanding ridiculous returns in trades and is not afraid to call it off if the return isn't good enough. Kenny will probably have to include both Flowers and Hudson in the deal. I say no thanks unless Tampa is willing to lower the asking price. Besides, we already have two outfielders coming off terrible seasons hoping to rebound back next season. Hoping for rebound years from those two is one thing, hoping for THREE is another. If we have to gut our farm for a solid bat, it better be A-Gon, whom I doubt would be here anyways.

That was their reputation under Chuck LaMar, but is it is the same under Andrew Friedman?

oeo
11-22-2009, 11:48 PM
.241/.313/.373 last season.

Coop'll fix him?

I think some of you guys are blinded by what people think he could be, rather than what he has been the last few years. Yeah, I'd probably still take him, but he's not a WE'VE GOT TO GET THIS GUY kind of talent. He fits for us, so he's useful, but he's no game-changer and at worst, he's a spoiled, pouty douche who shrivels when the going gets tough.

Correction: what he has been, not what he can be.

oeo
11-22-2009, 11:49 PM
Cockiness and hot dogging are two different things.

Upton, like Bradley, is a talent, but they both have traits we do not need.

Cockiness is not pumpiing your fist, flipping your bat, etc. Beckham is cocky.

And you've yet to explain the similarities between Upton and Bradley. There are none.

DaveFeelsRight
11-23-2009, 12:29 AM
.241/.313/.373 last season.

Coop'll fix him?

I think some of you guys are blinded by what people think he could be, rather than what he has been the last few years. Yeah, I'd probably still take him, but he's not a WE'VE GOT TO GET THIS GUY kind of talent. He fits for us, so he's useful, but he's no game-changer and at worst, he's a spoiled, pouty douche who shrivels when the going gets tough.i'd like to point out that he was basically injured throughout the entire season.

cards press box
11-23-2009, 01:36 AM
He seemed to be the most dangerous hitter against the Sox in the 2008 ALDS, for what that's worth. Dewayne Wise seemed the most dangerous hitter against the Rays in the 2008 ALDS.

Yeah, but B.J. Upton is a young star outfielder with a lot of upside. DeWayne Wise had some great moments for the Sox but he is around 30 and is a journeyman outfielder. No comparison there.

BJ Upton is just a lower-salaried version of Milton Bradley.

What is the basis for this comparison? I have never heard anything suggesting that Upton has been a clubhouse distraction. Upton certainly seemed popular with his teammates during the 2008 ALDS.

Don't most guys in their early 20's need a kick in the (butt) routinely?

Quite true.

He would look nice. Depends on what they want for him, but he would solve some holes for this team.

Tampa Bay is looking for a closer. To get Upton, the Sox would probably have to trade Bobby Jenks. How do people feel about that? Here's another question. The Phillies are looking a closer. What would people here think if the Sox dealt Jenks for the "Flyin' Hawaiian," Shane Victorino?

NLaloosh
11-23-2009, 05:02 AM
I don't profess to know a lot about B.J. Upton but I know that he definitely has superstar potential.

I would definitely be interested in trading for him. But, due to his erratic nature I wouldn't be willing to give up a ton to get him.

I wouldn't give up Flowers and Hudson. I would give up Jenks. Probably Jenks and Flowers.

soxinem1
11-23-2009, 06:50 AM
Cockiness is not pumpiing your fist, flipping your bat, etc. Beckham is cocky.

And you've yet to explain the similarities between Upton and Bradley. There are none.

Whatever.

The similarities, as Doublem noted, are the childish BS poutiness, and the 'I'll Play Hard When I Want To Play Hard' personna.

If he couldn't motivate himself and give his all when his team was a contender, I would not want him around.

Upton will be on another four or five teams before he is done because someone thinks they can get him to reach his potential.

We already have Rios, we don't need another one like him.

Craig Grebeck
11-23-2009, 07:53 AM
Whatever.

The similarities, as Doublem noted, are the childish BS poutiness, and the 'I'll Play Hard When I Want To Play Hard' personna.

If he couldn't motivate himself and give his all when his team was a contender, I would not want him around.

Upton will be on another four or five teams before he is done because someone thinks they can get him to reach his potential.

We already have Rios, we don't need another one like him.
You mean a super-talented, five-tool outfielder? I agree. Mark Kotsay looks like he cares. He should play everyday.

JohnTucker0814
11-23-2009, 08:24 AM
Whatever.

The similarities, as Doublem noted, are the childish BS poutiness, and the 'I'll Play Hard When I Want To Play Hard' personna.

If he couldn't motivate himself and give his all when his team was a contender, I would not want him around.

Upton will be on another four or five teams before he is done because someone thinks they can get him to reach his potential.

We already have Rios, we don't need another one like him.

Are you saying he "dogged" it through the playoffs? 7 HR's & 16 RBI's & 6SB's... that doesn't sound like "dogging" it to me...

I believe we've had a few players dog it during a game, A.J. for instance... it happens!

Corlose 15
11-23-2009, 09:40 AM
.241/.313/.373 last season.

Coop'll fix him?

I think some of you guys are blinded by what people think he could be, rather than what he has been the last few years. Yeah, I'd probably still take him, but he's not a WE'VE GOT TO GET THIS GUY kind of talent. He fits for us, so he's useful, but he's no game-changer and at worst, he's a spoiled, pouty douche who shrivels when the going gets tough.

Way to pick a selective season to support your argument while totally ignoring his previous stats.

07 .300/.386/.508
08 .273/.383/.401

http://http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/team/player.jsp?player_id=425834

soxinem1
11-23-2009, 09:56 AM
Are you saying he "dogged" it through the playoffs? 7 HR's & 16 RBI's & 6SB's... that doesn't sound like "dogging" it to me...

I believe we've had a few players dog it during a game, A.J. for instance... it happens!

That is a small portion of the season. Not to diminish his accomplishment, but it has been done before.

And sure, I can name a few. Such 'hustlers' like AJ, Aaron Rowand, Kevin Millar, and many others have been caught dogging it. But when your manager benches you and calls you out for it on several occasion, do you honestly think Guillen and Upton would be a good mix?

I do not dispute Upton's tools. I question his committment and do not believe he and the White Sox are a good fit.

You mean a super-talented, five-tool outfielder? I agree. Mark Kotsay looks like he cares. He should play everyday.

Of course, as usual, you make a statement that has nothing to do with the topic just so you can get a wise-assed comment in.

In your realm of thinking everyone who has tools should be acquired because of what they might do.

Craig Grebeck
11-23-2009, 11:40 AM
Of course, as usual, you make a statement that has nothing to do with the topic just so you can get a wise-assed comment in.

In your realm of thinking everyone who has tools should be acquired because of what they might do.
1. I believe my rebuttal was absolutely germane. You said Upton was not what we needed on the hilariously false notion of "poutiness."
2. Yes, I prefer talented players. They are the ones who usually pan out.

soxinem1
11-23-2009, 03:06 PM
1. I believe my rebuttal was absolutely germane. You said Upton was not what we needed on the hilariously false notion of "poutiness."
2. Yes, I prefer talented players. They are the ones who usually pan out.

You are entitled to your opinion, as I am mine. But you, as I have seen previously on these threads, like to twist things to extremes, such as your implying my opinion about BJ Upton somehow leads to Kotsay being in the starting lineup.

When did he even become part of the discussion? How does Kotsay fit into BJ Upton being a dogass or the guaranteed success you pretend him to be? He is totally irrelevant to this discussion.

I never mentioned any comparisons to Upton other than Milton Bradley. True, Upton has not had the outrageous temper issues that have become a part of Bradley's rep, but the other issues that Upton has been called out and disciplined for are very, very similar to the crap Bradley pulled in MTL, CLE, LAD, and OAK, when he was the same age.

Those teams all grew tired of his crap, and Upton, IMO, is following the same path.

Pablo_Honey
11-23-2009, 04:12 PM
1. I believe my rebuttal was absolutely germane. You said Upton was not what we needed on the hilariously false notion of "poutiness."
2. Yes, I prefer talented players. They are the ones who usually pan out.

Of course, only talented individuals such as Delmon Young and Carlos Gomez can make it in MLB. Sarcasm aside, I agree with you on that point. Most so-called "scrappy" players rarely amount to anything big. Upton's very talented for sure. He has shown he has all the 5 tools plus the ability to get on base. However, the biggest concern with Upton is that he has been called out publicly for being lazy. Most successful Major Leaguers make the best out of their talent with hard work and proper conditioning. Based on what has been said about Upton, he seems to lack that right now. Granted, nobody can truly say he lacks the heart because for all we know, he could actually be trying hard. Nevertheless, he looks he doesn't give a darn and his numbers in 2009 certainly didn't do him any good.

Craig Grebeck
11-24-2009, 12:03 PM
You are entitled to your opinion, as I am mine. But you, as I have seen previously on these threads, like to twist things to extremes, such as your implying my opinion about BJ Upton somehow leads to Kotsay being in the starting lineup.
It was more of an analogy. Both the thought of passing on Upton and starting Kotsay seem so mind-boggling that I thought the analogy was sound.

When did he even become part of the discussion? How does Kotsay fit into BJ Upton being a dogass or the guaranteed success you pretend him to be? He is totally irrelevant to this discussion.Never said he was a guaranteed success. I'd just bet on the tools/talent. He's been damn good, and I would be surprised if he doesn't continue to be.

I never mentioned any comparisons to Upton other than Milton Bradley. True, Upton has not had the outrageous temper issues that have become a part of Bradley's rep, but the other issues that Upton has been called out and disciplined for are very, very similar to the crap Bradley pulled in MTL, CLE, LAD, and OAK, when he was the same age. Any links/evidence here?

I actually like both players and think they've been unfairly demonized, but that's neither here nor there.

Those teams all grew tired of his crap, and Upton, IMO, is following the same path.Bradley's been a good, albeit fragile player in this league. I wouldn't pass on that production.

This team is in dire need of young, talented players like Upton.
Of course, only talented individuals such as Delmon Young and Carlos Gomez can make it in MLB. Sarcasm aside, I agree with you on that point. Most so-called "scrappy" players rarely amount to anything big. Upton's very talented for sure. He has shown he has all the 5 tools plus the ability to get on base. However, the biggest concern with Upton is that he has been called out publicly for being lazy. Most successful Major Leaguers make the best out of their talent with hard work and proper conditioning. Based on what has been said about Upton, he seems to lack that right now. Granted, nobody can truly say he lacks the heart because for all we know, he could actually be trying hard. Nevertheless, he looks he doesn't give a darn and his numbers in 2009 certainly didn't do him any good.
I don't really care how he looks, to be honest. He's got the talent.

His line-drives were down last year with a dramatic increase in flyballs. He's still young enough to turn it around and make 2009 look like an aberration.

russ99
11-24-2009, 01:02 PM
I agree with the assessment that we already have a similar reclamation project with a talented guy who regressed in Rios.

If Kenny's going to pay extra salary and need to give up high-end talent, I'd rather see a guy brought in who's had steady numbers and is without controversy instead of another question mark in the middle of the lineup.

Zisk77
11-24-2009, 01:10 PM
I rather just get Crawford. Seems a better fit for us without the drama.

soxinem1
11-24-2009, 01:24 PM
I rather just get Crawford. Seems a better fit for us without the drama.

And that may still be feasable. If KW doesn't rip Jenks so much and kill his value he could probably get Crawford for Bobby and a couple minor-leaguers.

He would be fine in LF, but Carl is not a lead-off hitter.

If anything, I think KW should go after Reggie Willits with LAA. If he gets another chance I think he would be the LF, lead-off man, and defender we need. The Angels have not developed him and he could be a diamond in the rough.

But somehow I think we might have to settle for Gary Matthews, Jr.

Craig Grebeck
11-24-2009, 01:50 PM
I agree with the assessment that we already have a similar reclamation project with a talented guy who regressed in Rios.

If Kenny's going to pay extra salary and need to give up high-end talent, I'd rather see a guy brought in who's had steady numbers and is without controversy instead of another question mark in the middle of the lineup.
He's not going to pay extra salary. Upton's contractual situation is nothing like Rios.

I rather just get Crawford. Seems a better fit for us without the drama.
Except for the contract. Plus there's just as much evidence pointing to Crawford being a diva.

And that may still be feasable. If KW doesn't rip Jenks so much and kill his value he could probably get Crawford for Bobby and a couple minor-leaguers.
I'm guessing the Rays could do far better than a couple minor-leaguers and an overpaid closer for Carl Crawford. If they need an arm that badly, I'm sure they can find one on the free agent market (there are plenty -- most of whom are arguably better investments than Jenks).

But somehow I think we might have to settle for Gary Matthews, Jr.
For what purpose? He has no skills left.

Zisk77
11-24-2009, 03:27 PM
And that may still be feasable. If KW doesn't rip Jenks so much and kill his value he could probably get Crawford for Bobby and a couple minor-leaguers.

He would be fine in LF, but Carl is not a lead-off hitter.

If anything, I think KW should go after Reggie Willits with LAA. If he gets another chance I think he would be the LF, lead-off man, and defender we need. The Angels have not developed him and he could be a diamond in the rough.

But somehow I think we might have to settle for Gary Matthews, Jr.

Crawford has done very well as a leadoff hitter in the past. Its just that he project even better at a two or a three hitter.

Willets sucks.

Zisk77
11-24-2009, 03:33 PM
He's not going to pay extra salary. Upton's contractual situation is nothing like Rios.


Except for the contract. Plus there's just as much evidence pointing to Crawford being a diva.


I'm guessing the Rays could do far better than a couple minor-leaguers and an overpaid closer for Carl Crawford. If they need an arm that badly, I'm sure they can find one on the free agent market (there are plenty -- most of whom are arguably better investments than Jenks).


For what purpose? He has no skills left.


Such as what? I've never heard of Carl being benched for lack of hustle. I've only heard him spout off some things to the media, but nothing that has negatively effected his game or been a divisive force in the clubhouse. Plus he is a better leadoff candidate than Upton for us.

soxinem1
11-24-2009, 03:42 PM
Such as what? I've never heard of Carl being benched for lack of hustle. I've only heard him spout off some things to the media, but nothing that has negatively effected his game or been a divisive force in the clubhouse. Plus he is a better leadoff candidate than Upton for us.

I agree with most of your points, but Crawford is not a lead-off hitter.

Zisk77
11-24-2009, 03:49 PM
I agree with most of your points, but Crawford is not a lead-off hitter.

Currently, no.

But he was, and a good one, before the rays acquired other players that could fulfill that role and allow Crawford to drive in runs.

Now, on our team I would still want crawford to bat 2, 3, or 5 but if their wasn't a better option he would be far more than just serviceable as a leadoff hitter. And currently is a better option than anyone on our roster.

soxinem1
11-24-2009, 03:55 PM
It was more of an analogy. Both the thought of passing on Upton and starting Kotsay seem so mind-boggling that I thought the analogy was sound.

When did Kotsay starting ever become the stated alternative? In fact, when was it stated at all? Most everone on this board likes the guy as a backup, and agrees that if he is a regular the 2010 team will be no better than 2009.

Never said he was a guaranteed success. I'd just bet on the tools/talent. He's been damn good, and I would be surprised if he doesn't continue to be.

He's had one good season.

I actually like both players and think they've been unfairly demonized, but that's neither here nor there.

Ouch!!

Bradley's been a good, albeit fragile player in this league. I wouldn't pass on that production.

What production is that? the only thing he can be counted on consistently for is being out of the lineup and starting ****. Even at this stage of his career Jim Thome is more durable than this guy.

Has he ever had a season even close to being really productive? He's never even drove in 80 runs. If anything, Kotsay would get a lot of playing time filling in for Bradley.

This team is in dire need of young, talented players like Upton.

I don't really care how he looks, to be honest. He's got the talent.

His line-drives were down last year with a dramatic increase in flyballs. He's still young enough to turn it around and make 2009 look like an aberration.

The only aberration was his playoff jack-a-thon in 2008 making him think he was more than what he is. That is why he had more flyballs.

Craig Grebeck
11-24-2009, 04:20 PM
He's had one good season.

One elite, one solid.
What production is that? the only thing he can be counted on consistently for is being out of the lineup and starting ****. Even at this stage of his career Jim Thome is more durable than this guy.
Don't want to hijack it.

Has he ever had a season even close to being really productive? He's never even drove in 80 runs. If anything, Kotsay would get a lot of playing time filling in for Bradley.
If you're using RsBI as a barometer, it's not worth the time.

The only aberration was his playoff jack-a-thon in 2008 making him think he was more than what he is. That is why he had more flyballs
Wow, sound analysis. Perhaps you should check the actual data, rather than make such broad assumptions.

soxinem1
11-24-2009, 04:53 PM
One elite, one solid..

Elite? Are you kidding? When was that?

If you're using RsBI as a barometer, it's not worth the time.. What other numbers for a middle of the order hitter do you want to use, time on the DL/Suspension?


Wow, sound analysis. Perhaps you should check the actual data, rather than make such broad assumptions.

Numbers back it up. He hits a few HR in the post season then starts making a lot of fly ball outs. Maybe he was using his speed to leg out some hits.

Craig Grebeck
11-24-2009, 05:11 PM
Elite? Are you kidding? When was that?
2007. .300/.386/.508 from an up-the-middle player is elite.

What other numbers for a middle of the order hitter do you want to use, time on the DL/Suspension?Well, at the outset, rate statistics.

Numbers back it up. He hits a few HR in the post season then starts making a lot of fly ball outs. Maybe he was using his speed to leg out some hits.Or it's a fluctuation in the data. Weighing one year too much and then attributing it to some sort of selfish motive is just, well, wrong.