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KenBerryGrab
11-20-2009, 11:00 AM
This Tweet caught my attention.

http://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/5893680083

DirtySox
11-20-2009, 11:02 AM
Solid.

I like defense.

Rohan
11-20-2009, 11:03 AM
Oh... This could make my day a bit more interesting.

spawn
11-20-2009, 11:03 AM
Now all we need to do is sign Roberto Alomar, and we'll have gold gloves at 2nd and SS!!!


Seriously, if only in a backup role, I like it. Maybe he can be a mentor Alexei.

Rohan
11-20-2009, 11:05 AM
Now all we need to do is sign Roberto Alomar, and we'll have gold gloves at 2nd and SS!!!


Seriously, if only in a backup role, I like it. Maybe he can be a mentor Alexei.

He'd be an exceptional back up. One of the best defenders to play his position. And he batted .266 last year. I'll take him! I wonder at what cost...

DirtySox
11-20-2009, 11:12 AM
So what happens with Nix? Omar can backup both 3B, SS, and 2B.

Domeshot17
11-20-2009, 11:12 AM
I like him as a backup, but this is so the typical Kenny get the guy years later move.

NLaloosh
11-20-2009, 11:17 AM
Vizquel or Lillibridge ?

Take your pick.

He'll only be 43 in April.

Do you think he'll wear a Sox hat in the HOF ?

I think that this move clearly signals that the deal for Adrian Gonzalez is imminent.

DirtySox
11-20-2009, 11:23 AM
I hope Omar will bring his Kangaroos to the clubhouse.

spawn
11-20-2009, 11:24 AM
Vizquel or Lillibridge ?

Take your pick.

He'll only be 43 in April.

Do you think he'll wear a Sox hat in the HOF ?

I think that this move clearly signals that the deal for Adrian Gonzalez is imminent.
Teal is implied, right?

Jpgr91
11-20-2009, 11:28 AM
KW was after him a few years ago, so I suppose it makes sense that KW would sign him now.

JermaineDye05
11-20-2009, 11:38 AM
Kenny always gets his man.

Sargeant79
11-20-2009, 11:40 AM
I'd love this move. Solid late inning defensive replacement who is not a complete liability at the plate. My only question is what this means for Jayson Nix...my guess would be that they're planning on keeping him in AAA if this signing goes through.

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 11:42 AM
Is Bruce Levine going to stake his reputation that Vizquel becomes a White Sox again?

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 11:43 AM
I like him as a backup, but this is so the typical Kenny get the guy years later move.

KW has acquired most of the significant Indians of the mid 90s

Frater Perdurabo
11-20-2009, 11:49 AM
I think that this move clearly signals that the deal for Adrian Gonzalez is imminent.

In 2017...

rwcescato
11-20-2009, 11:49 AM
He'd be an exceptional back up. One of the best defenders to play his position. And he batted .266 last year. I'll take him! I wonder at what cost...


Isn't he like 60 yrs old. Lets bring back Ozzie and KW.

JohnnyInnsbrook
11-20-2009, 11:52 AM
He'd be an exceptional back up. One of the best defenders to play his position. And he batted .266 last year. I'll take him! I wonder at what cost...

Sounds like $1 Mill.

http://www.csnchicago.com/pages/landing?Report-Sox-Close-to-Signing-Vizquel=1&blockID=93480&feedID=661

slavko
11-20-2009, 11:56 AM
That's the final piece. We have our leadoff man now. :tongue:

NLaloosh
11-20-2009, 11:59 AM
Teal is implied, right?

Always.

soxfanreggie
11-20-2009, 12:00 PM
He's worth it as a solid back-up and a mentor in the clubhouse. We might even be able to retain him as a coach in our system when he decides to retire.

NLaloosh
11-20-2009, 12:02 PM
Isn't he like 60 yrs old. Lets bring back Ozzie and KW.


First, Kenny tried to get Louie Aparicio but Louie said that he needed to get a tennis ball for a leg on his walker so he moved on to Omar.

cws05champ
11-20-2009, 12:08 PM
I'd love this move. Solid late inning defensive replacement who is not a complete liability at the plate. My only question is what this means for Jayson Nix...my guess would be that they're planning on keeping him in AAA if this signing goes through.
What does it say about our starting left side of the infield if a 43yr old is a solid late inning defensive replacement at SS or 3B?

Frater Perdurabo
11-20-2009, 12:10 PM
Vizquel > Lillibridge, therefore signing Vizquel = roster upgrade

Sign a good backup catcher, and the bench is set. How about Olivo?

DirtySox
11-20-2009, 12:12 PM
Vizquel > Lillibridge, therefore signing Vizquel = roster upgrade

Sign a good backup catcher, and the bench is set. How about Olivo?

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=116611

Frater Perdurabo
11-20-2009, 12:16 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=116611

Saw it already. I'd still prefer Olivo. Probably won't happen though.

DaveFeelsRight
11-20-2009, 12:30 PM
i don't know how anyone can't like this move.

spawn
11-20-2009, 12:35 PM
i don't know how anyone can't like this move.
You would think...but we all know there will be many that won't.

If he were being brought in to be a starter, I could understand not liking it. But if he's coming in as a bench player, and someone to help mentor Alexei and even Beckham on how to play defense, then really, is there a better choice out there?

palehozenychicty
11-20-2009, 12:36 PM
i don't know how anyone can't like this move.


Many people live sad existences and nothing makes them feel better than bringing someone or something down.

Redus Redux
11-20-2009, 12:39 PM
Many people live sad existences and nothing makes them feel better than bringing someone or something down.

I would say that to someone who was against a move bringing in Albert Pujols.

If I dislike this move I'm plenty in the right. I can be unhappy that they spent money during the year instead of working on these free agents

spawn
11-20-2009, 12:43 PM
I would say that to someone who was against a move bringing in Albert Pujols.

If I dislike this move I'm plenty in the right. I can be unhappy that they spent money during the year instead of working on these free agents
So, you're unhappy they spent money during the season to bring in Peavy and Rios? Really? I can maybe understand Rios, seeing as he didn't really bring much since being brought here. But Peavy? The guy is a former Cy Young winner. What free agent pitcher would've been a better acquisition? And if you're say the Sox didn't need to strengthen the rotation, then, well, there is nothing left to say. :shrug:

LoveYourSuit
11-20-2009, 12:45 PM
You would think...but we all know there will be many that won't.

If he were being brought in to be a starter, I could understand not liking it. But if he's coming in as a bench player, and someone to help mentor Alexei and even Beckham on how to play defense, than really, is there a better choice out there?


For that reason this is a solid $1 million investment.

I actually would not mind Cora getting the boot as bench coach and get this guy in there to be Ozzie's right hand man in the future. Vizquel is one of the smartest players that has played the game and has a solid head for fundamentals.

This team needs more people like him either on the bench or coaching.


I love this move!!!

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 12:51 PM
I think I'm pretty fair, but face it, Vizquel is 43. His OPS with SF when he was 41 was .550, and he's probably lost a step since. He's a back up so its no big deal, but $1 million is $1 million. Guys like Nix and Lillibridge combined don't make that, and are probably more productive. So while it isn't the worst thing that ever happened, its far from a no brainer. The $1 million given to Colon didn't work out. Maybe this one will, but chances are many of the people hailing this move now will be calling for his release by May.

LoveYourSuit
11-20-2009, 01:00 PM
I think I'm pretty fair, but face it, Vizquel is 43. His OPS with SF when he was 41 was .550, and he's probably lost a step since. He's a back up so its no big deal, but $1 million is $1 million. Guys like Nix and Lillibridge combined don't make that, and are probably more productive. So while it isn't the worst thing that ever happened, its far from a no brainer. The $1 million given to Colon didn't work out. Maybe this one will, but chances are many of the people hailing this move now will be calling for his release by May.

I think you are expecting those guys to get as few ABs and PT as possible. So on the bench as a mentor and with the glove, who would you rather have of Vizquel, Nix, Lillibridge?

I actually applaud the Sox for finally having the sense to surround themselves with smart baseball people to help with the raw talent on this team.

munchman33
11-20-2009, 01:00 PM
Cue the "Vizquel to start at second today, Ozzie hates Beckham" threads.

Redus Redux
11-20-2009, 01:01 PM
Wow I just read my last post and that was awful.

Hopefully I can clarify some of the spirit I was trying exude. I wish they had gotten Abreu/Hudson before last year instead of Peavy/Rios midyear. It would still be great to have Peavy but who knows...we could have Halladay right now for some combo involving Poreda/Hudson/Flowers

Right now I am pretty much a caricature of the Sox fan that wants it all. I should go have my coffee

LoveYourSuit
11-20-2009, 01:09 PM
Wow I just read my last post and that was awful.

Hopefully I can clarify some of the spirit I was trying exude. I wish they had gotten Abreu/Hudson before last year instead of Peavy/Rios midyear. It would still be great to have Peavy but who knows...we could have Halladay right now for some combo involving Poreda/Hudson/Flowers

Right now I am pretty much a caricature of the Sox fan that wants it all. I should go have my coffee


I too am more for the "splashy" moves before the season starts rather than the ones done mid season.

But history has shown us that mid season moves a year or two before can become HUGE pieces to the big prize (Contreras and Freddy Garcia).

I think even with the additions of Abreau and Hudson last offseason our team would still have fallen way short in the post season because of major pitching issues in the bullpen (yes Rongey, the bullpen had issues) and a rotation running thin down the stretch because of Gavin going on the shelf and Buehrle basically running on fumes. So we would have won another medicore division, big deal.

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 01:15 PM
I think you are expecting those guys to get as few ABs and PT as possible. So on the bench as a mentor and with the glove, who would you rather have of Vizquel, Nix, Lillibridge?

I actually applaud the Sox for finally having the sense to surround themselves with smart baseball people to help with the raw talent on this team.

"Smart baseball people" that can't play can be had for less than $1 million. As I said, it isn't a backbreaker move, but if I need production, I would rather have Nix on the bench instead of a 43 year old Vizquel. If I needed a defensive SS, I actually would rather have Lillibridge, and to pinch run, I'd take the younger guys.( I am no fan of either Nix or Lillibridge) Maybe Vizquel will help Ramirez, that's the only potential upgrade I see, but if Ozzie can't get Ramirez's head out of his rear end, I don't think Vizquel is a lock to help him.

spawn
11-20-2009, 01:20 PM
"Smart baseball people" that can't play can be had for less than $1 million. As I said, it isn't a backbreaker move, but if I need production, I would rather have Nix on the bench instead of a 43 year old Vizquel. If I needed a defensive SS, I actually would rather have Lillibridge, and to pinch run, I'd take the younger guys.( I am no fan of either Nix or Lillibridge) Maybe Vizquel will help Ramirez, that's the only potential upgrade I see, but if Ozzie can't get Ramirez's head out of his rear end, I don't think Vizquel is a lock to help him.
Ozzie can't concentrate completely on the SS position. That's where a veteran like Vizquel comes in. Also, Vizquel is a leader, and a veteran that will be respected in this clubhouse. Both Kotsay and Vizquel would provide the leadership I think is missing with Konerko, and was missing with JD and Thome. Those are intangibles you can't put a $ sign on.

Waysouthsider
11-20-2009, 01:21 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=4674786

Just hear d this on MLB on XM as well....looks like we might be getting Omar to serve as a backup infielder.

Maybe he can mentor our young Senor Ramirez?

UofCSoxFan
11-20-2009, 01:23 PM
What does it say about our starting left side of the infield if a 43yr old is a solid late inning defensive replacement at SS or 3B?

When that 43yr is one of the best of all time? His range has decreased but he still has great hands and instincts out there. He'd be a late inning defensive upgrade on a lot of teams.

oeo
11-20-2009, 01:23 PM
I like him as a backup, but this is so the typical Kenny get the guy years later move.

This team is sorely lacking leadership, Omar brings some. It makes sense to bring in guys like Vizquel and Kotsay, who can mentor our younger guys, especially after hearing how Ozzie hated the way the vets were a bad example for the younger guys in 2009.

pythons007
11-20-2009, 01:24 PM
Another over the hill player Kenny always wanted at some point!

The Immigrant
11-20-2009, 01:25 PM
i don't know how anyone can't like this move.

Because I remember how well things worked out with Erstad? Ozzie will probably have Vizquel starting 3-4 times a week.

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 01:26 PM
Ozzie can't concentrate completely on the SS position. That's where a veteran like Vizquel comes in. Also, Vizquel is a leader, and a veteran that will be respected in this clubhouse. Both Kotsay and Vizquel would provide the leadership I think is missing with Konerko, and was missing with JD and Thome. Those are intangibles you can't put a $ sign on.
Carlton Fisk was a 45 year old catcher and leader who was released in 1993. The White Sox went on to win the 1993 Western Division and were on top in 1994 when the strike hit.

You can try to intangible me to death, all that really matters is if he can make a difference in White Sox wins and losses, and I don't think its really a lock that he can. The fact that intangibles are really brought up at all is a concession that his play probably doesn't warrant a guaranteed contract at this stage. I'm not pissed they will pick him up, I just think his influence on winning will be very small if there even is one at all.

LoveYourSuit
11-20-2009, 01:27 PM
This team is sorely lacking leadership, Omar brings some. It makes sense to bring in guys like Vizquel and Kotsay, who can mentor our younger guys, especially after hearing how Ozzie hated the way the vets were a bad example for the younger guys in 2009.


And both guys mentioned there are known as good clubhouse guys. It's not like they are bringing Charles Oakley in there.

Noneck
11-20-2009, 01:28 PM
The Sox currently have two former good defensive infielders on their bench. I read mentor in this thread a lot, why not let the coaches already on the staff mentor the young infielders?

If Vizquel has something in the tank to produce on the field that is fine, if not, let the current coaches do the mentoring.

LoveYourSuit
11-20-2009, 01:28 PM
Because I remember how well things worked out with Erstad? Ozzie will probably have Vizquel starting 3-4 times a week.


Now that's a different story. If Ozzzie does start taking PT from Alexei and Beckham just to get Vizquel out there more than 3X per week, Ozzie should be fired on the spot.

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 01:28 PM
And both guys mentioned there are known as good clubhouse guys. It's not like they are bringing Charles Oakley in there.
Omar has a mixed reputation.

oeo
11-20-2009, 01:29 PM
Because I remember how well things worked out with Erstad? Ozzie will probably have Vizquel starting 3-4 times a week.

The difference being we didn't have a centerfielder at the time. I will put money on Vizquel not playing often. I doubt he can even play that much. Vizquel is being brought in as a veteran presence.

LoveYourSuit
11-20-2009, 01:29 PM
The Sox currently have two former good defensive infielders on their bench. I read mentor in this thread a lot, why not let the coaches already on the staff mentor the young infielders?

If Vizquel has something in the tank to produce on the field that is fine, if not, let the current coaches do the mentoring.


Because they have failed at it. Both Cora and Ozzie have been major dissapointments when it comese to preaching defense and fundamentals.

oeo
11-20-2009, 01:31 PM
I'm beginning to think Sox fans are the baseball eqivalent of Jets fans.

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 01:31 PM
Because they have failed at it. Both Cora and Ozzie have been major dissapointments when it comese to preaching defense and fundamentals.
Then shouldn't they be replaced, or is that saved for Greg Walker?

Noneck
11-20-2009, 01:32 PM
Because they have failed at it. Both Cora and Ozzie have been major dissapointments when it comese to preaching defense and fundamentals.

I know and hiring another "coach" to do what they should be doing is a sad situation.

LoveYourSuit
11-20-2009, 01:33 PM
The fact that we are arguing about the Sox signing Omar Vizquel for a mere $1 million is amazing to me.

I guess it's a slow day in the news and we just have to find flaws to everything.

$1 million. That's it.

A payroll that will probably sit at about $95 million and Omar geting about 1% of that ...... Amazing.

LoveYourSuit
11-20-2009, 01:37 PM
Then shouldn't they be replaced, or is that saved for Greg Walker?


Let's just say the Sox coaching staff the last 3 seasons IMO has done very little deserve a pay check.

Coop 50/50, as he has yet to figure out a way to keep a bullpen sharp for more than the halfway point of the season.

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 01:39 PM
Let's just say the Sox coaching staff the last 3 seasons IMO has done very little deserve a pay check.

Coop 50/50, as he has yet to figure out a way to keep a bullpen sharp for more than the halfway point of the season.
I agree with you there. Everyone should be on notice, but unfortunately it doesn't work that way.

Jimmy Piersall
11-20-2009, 01:41 PM
The fact that we are arguing about the Sox signing Omar Vizquel for a mere $1 million is amazing to me.

I guess it's a slow day in the news and we just have to find flaws to everything.

$1 million. That's it.

A payroll that will probably sit at about $95 million and Omar geting about 1% of that ...... Amazing.

Here it is.This and even at 43 he's still better than Nix or the T-baller.

oeo
11-20-2009, 01:47 PM
Because they have failed at it. Both Cora and Ozzie have been major dissapointments when it comese to preaching defense and fundamentals.

Well, the preaching isn't the problem. They preach it all the time. They apparently also work on it every winter (Cora takes guys in every winter...Ramirez, Viciedo, and Beckham this year), every Spring Training, and even during the year (who else has bunting practice). I don't know why the work doesn't translate into results. Maybe they preach it too much and simple things become pressured? Maybe the past players just didn't want to bring it to the field?

thomas35forever
11-20-2009, 02:03 PM
If he's only signing as a backup, that's fine with me. However, I think he's at the point in his career where he should just hang it up.

JermaineDye05
11-20-2009, 02:11 PM
Kenny will explode if, once again, this deal falls through after being leaked.

wulfy
11-20-2009, 02:11 PM
I think Kenny just spent $1MM for a drinking buddy for Ozzie.

russ99
11-20-2009, 02:15 PM
Vizquel has been on Kenny's radar for a long time.

He'd be a great mentor for Ramirez and Beckham and perform spot duties at every infield position.

A guy like Vizquel (even at his age) is much more valuable to a team than his salary may indicate. I'd welcome it.

FielderJones
11-20-2009, 02:17 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091120&content_id=7693960&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

russ99
11-20-2009, 02:23 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091120&content_id=7693960&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

I really don't like this. The Sox team site should be for confirmed news, not hot stove speculation.

They did this for the Teahen deal too.

I'm sure it drives more traffic to the site, but it lessens the impact of official news releases.

rwcescato
11-20-2009, 02:26 PM
You would think...but we all know there will be many that won't.

If he were being brought in to be a starter, I could understand not liking it. But if he's coming in as a bench player, and someone to help mentor Alexei and even Beckham on how to play defense, then really, is there a better choice out there?

Dont we have Cora and Ozzie to give advice to our young infielders?

oeo
11-20-2009, 02:27 PM
I really don't like this. The Sox team site should be for confirmed news, not hot stove speculation.

They did this for the Teahen deal too.

I'm sure it drives more traffic to the site, but it lessens the impact of official news releases.

It's not the Sox, it's MLB Advanced Media running all the MLB sites.

http://hotstove.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/11/report_white_sox_close_to_deal.html

Is that a better link for you?

russ99
11-20-2009, 02:29 PM
It's not the Sox, it's MLB Advanced Media running all the MLB sites.



That makes sense.

But posting stories like that makes the official Sox site no more trustworthy than the one you linked or our other favorite rumor site.

Just seeing the address made me think the signing was official...

oeo
11-20-2009, 02:30 PM
That makes sense.

But posting stories like that makes the official Sox site no more trustworthy than the one you linked or our other favorite rumor site.

A rumor doesn't make you any more or less trustworthy, it's confirming a false rumor.

PaleHoser
11-20-2009, 02:31 PM
Death Match:

Ozzie vs. Omar.

Winner gets to wear #13.

Special guest referee: Dave Concepcion.

But seriously, if Vizquel can be had for $1M it's a no brainer IMO. I'd rather have him on my bench than both Nix and Lillibridge together.

Vizquel is a smart player who can switch hit, handle the bat and catch the ball. We don't have enough of them.

kittle42
11-20-2009, 02:31 PM
Why is anyone complaining about this?

oeo
11-20-2009, 02:32 PM
Why is anyone complaining about this?

There hasn't been anything to bitch about since the Teahen deal.

Boondock Saint
11-20-2009, 02:33 PM
Why is anyone complaining about this?

Beats me. Our infield defense was atrocious last year. Every time he takes the field, that defense improves.

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 02:34 PM
Why is anyone complaining about this?
I don't think anyone is complaining, I just think there are a few of us who don't really think it makes the White Sox better, and maybe the $1 million could be used to make them better.

oeo
11-20-2009, 02:35 PM
I don't think anyone is complaining, I just think there are a few of us who don't really think it makes the White Sox better, and maybe the $1 million could be used to make them better.

Bench players don't make a team significantly better. $1 million is nothing.

TheOldRoman
11-20-2009, 02:35 PM
Because I remember how well things worked out with Erstad? Ozzie will probably have Vizquel starting 3-4 times a week.Erstad shouldn't have been starting, but Brian Anderson was a really bad player. Ramirez is a budding star at SS, and not even the most crazy "Ozzie hates whites" conspiracy theorist would have Vizquel starting over Beckham at 2B.

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 02:36 PM
Beats me. Our infield defense was atrocious last year. Every time he takes the field, that defense improves.
He's 43. He's not what he was and can fall of the cliff at any time. Do you really think he's better defensively at this point and 6 to 8 months from now than Nix and Lillibridge? I think its pretty much a wash. Maybe he can be the designated bunter, but I don't think that's worth $1 million a year.

spawn
11-20-2009, 02:39 PM
Why is anyone complaining about this?
Because it's WSI. We'll find a reason to bitch about anything. :wink: :redneck

spawn
11-20-2009, 02:41 PM
I don't think anyone is complaining, I just think there are a few of us who don't really think it makes the White Sox better, and maybe the $1 million could be used to make them better.
Who at $1 million that is on the market would make the Sox better?

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 02:41 PM
Bench players don't make a team significantly better. $1 million is nothing.
He could make them worse. He was 2 for his last 28. Father time may have caught up to him. I would rather have the young guys making minimum myself and maybe parlay the extra $500k in an inseason pick-up or a higher than slot signing bonus.

oeo
11-20-2009, 02:43 PM
He could make them worse. He was 2 for his last 28. Father time may have caught up to him. I would rather have the young guys making minimum myself and maybe parlay the extra $500k in an inseason pick-up or a higher than slot signing bonus.

I will take 43-year-old Vizquel over Jayson Nix at SS any day of the week. That there already makes us better.

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 02:44 PM
Who at $1 million that is on the market would make the Sox better?

I don't know, but perhaps there is a guy who signs for $3 million and the Sox offer him $2 million or $2.5. You never know when the extra cash comes in handy. I do know Nix and Lillibridge combined don't make $1 million, and as much as I don't care for either one, I believe they would both outperform Omar as a 43 year old in 2010.

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 02:46 PM
I will take 43-year-old Vizquel over Jayson Nix at SS any day of the week. That there already makes us better.

Well he won't be at SS all that much. Would you take him at 2B over Nix? SS and 3B defensively yes. 2B and offensively, no way. If Omar plays very much, the Sox are in trouble. He's getting paid for reputation. If they looked at the numbers he would get a minor league contract at best. The IF who you would think would get the most time off would be Teahan. If the Sox really wanted their best infield defense in there when he was out, Beckham would play 3B and Nix 2B. I agree Nix is horrible at SS and 3B, but Lillibridge is OK there.

Sargeant79
11-20-2009, 02:46 PM
Why is anyone complaining about this?

Seriously. I don't get it either.

thedudeabides
11-20-2009, 02:49 PM
He's 43. He's not what he was and can fall of the cliff at any time. Do you really think he's better defensively at this point and 6 to 8 months from now than Nix and Lillibridge? I think its pretty much a wash. Maybe he can be the designated bunter, but I don't think that's worth $1 million a year.

Yes, defensively he is much better, and he can play all the positions. He has lost a step, but is still an excellent defender.

And Nix and Lillibridge don't play for free. They would still be making a 400-500k salary, so the difference is about $500,000, or 1/200 of the overall estimated payroll. Absolutely not an issue.

Because it's WSI. We'll find a reason to bitch about anything. :wink: :redneck

No doubt. Vizquel was a tremendous tudor/mentor for Elvis Andrus last season, and hopefully he can do the same for Alexei and Gordon, this season. Sometimes, mentors are better than coaches in getting through to players. Omar can preach things in practice and then show them in a game. A coach cannot, and also has 25 players, and many other responsibilities to worry about. They can't dedicate themselves to 1 or 2 players.

The Sox need veteran leadership and improved defense. I think this is a small step in that direction, at virtually no cost.

oeo
11-20-2009, 02:50 PM
Well he won't be at SS all that much. Would you take him at 2B over Nix? SS and 3B defensively yes. 2B and offensively, no way. If Omar plays very much, the Sox are in trouble. He's getting paid for reputation. If they looked at the numbers he would get a minor league contract at best.

If any bench player plays much, on any team, you're in trouble at that particular position.

Nix will still be on the team, I don't understand the beef. There was a week where Nix had to play SS everyday at the end of July/early August after Alexei got hurt. It wasn't pretty. We now have someone that can actually play the position.

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 02:57 PM
Yes, defensively he is much better, and he can play all the positions. He has lost a step, but is still an excellent defender.

And Nix and Lillibridge don't play for free. They would still be making a 400-500k salary, so the difference is about $500,000, or 1/200 of the overall estimated payroll. Absolutely not an issue.



No doubt. Vizquel was a tremendous tudor/mentor for Elvis Andrus last season, and hopefully he can do the same for Alexei and Gordon, this season. Sometimes, mentors are better than coaches in getting through to players. Omar can preach things in practice and then show them in a game. A coach cannot, and also has 25 players, and many other responsibilities to worry about. They can't dedicate themselves to 1 or 2 players.

The Sox need veteran leadership and improved defense. I think this is a small step in that direction, at virtually no cost.


This tudor stuff is overblown. The White Sox have Cora and a GG SS from Venezuela managing the team. If Ramirez hasn't got anything out of those 2, why is it assumed he will out of Vizquel? Its not a lot of money, I agree with that. I just think anyone who thinks this is a no-brainer slam dunk that is only going to help the White Sox, need to realize this isn't anything near the Omar Vizquel who used to beat up the Sox.

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 02:59 PM
If any bench player plays much, on any team, you're in trouble at that particular position.

Nix will still be on the team, I don't understand the beef. There was a week where Nix had to play SS everyday at the end of July/early August after Alexei got hurt. It wasn't pretty. We now have someone that can actually play the position.

He's 43. If he has to play extensively, the White Sox are in big trouble.

chunk
11-20-2009, 03:01 PM
Vizquel UZR UZR/150 2009
2b
0.0 0.3
3b
3.3 56.1
ss
5.3 32.6
Lillibridge UZR UZR/150 2009
2b
-0.3 -2.4
ss
0.1 4.2
Nix UZR UZR/150 2009
2b
4.4 14.5
3b
0.3 4.9
ss
-3.1
-36.8
So yeah, I think it's clear that Vizquel, even being ancient, is a step up from either of these two defensively.

KenBerryGrab
11-20-2009, 03:02 PM
This tudor stuff is overblown.


I agree! Elizabeth wasn't ALL that.

http://www.activehistory.co.uk/Miscellaneous/menus/Year_8/Tudors.htm

Nellie_Fox
11-20-2009, 03:03 PM
Vizquel was a tremendous tudor...

This tudor stuff is overblown.Here's a tremendous Tudor:

http://mrlovegrove.mlon.co.uk/files/2007/09/henry.jpg

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 03:03 PM
Vizquel UZR UZR/150 2009
2b
0.0 0.3
3b
3.3 56.1
ss
5.3 32.6
Lillibridge UZR UZR/150 2009
2b
-0.3 -2.4
ss
0.1 4.2
Nix UZR UZR/150 2009
2b
4.4 14.5
3b
0.3 4.9
ss
-3.1
-36.8
So yeah, I think it's clear that Vizquel, even being ancient, is a step up from either of these two defensively.
Keep in mind, Omar's numbers are probably only going to get worse. What's ironic is the Sox wanted Vizquel in 2005 but would only go 3 years. SF went 4, and now, 5 seasons later, the Sox appear to be bringing him in.

thedudeabides
11-20-2009, 03:20 PM
This tudor stuff is overblown. The White Sox have Cora and a GG SS from Venezuela managing the team. If Ramirez hasn't got anything out of those 2, why is it assumed he will out of Vizquel? Its not a lot of money, I agree with that. I just think anyone who thinks this is a no-brainer slam dunk that is only going to help the White Sox, need to realize this isn't anything near the Omar Vizquel who used to beat up the Sox.

I explained why a tutor(there you go Nellie:tongue:) or mentor can be different. I'm not saying it's a guarantee, but our middle infield could certainly use all the help they can get, with the kind of potential they have. And all reports out of Texas were great with how much he helped Andrus come along, and many think he may have been the best defensive SS last year, as a rookie.

I believe all of Alexei's issues are between the ears, so I think it's a sound strategy to help get through to him. If it works, we are talking about someone who could be a special player.

He's not much with the bat, but he is still really good with the glove. They are committing only a few million dollars between Freddie, Kotsay, and Vizquel. Let's hope they can help change the attitude of the team.

Noneck
11-20-2009, 03:25 PM
Here's a tremendous Tudor:

http://mrlovegrove.mlon.co.uk/files/2007/09/henry.jpg

Looks as though he could have been Colons conditioning tutor.

spawn
11-20-2009, 03:27 PM
Looks as though he could have been Colons conditioning tutor.
:rolleyes:

guillen4life13
11-20-2009, 03:31 PM
IMHO, this is an excellent move. Vizquel is at the point where he will be half coach, half player. And, to be perfectly honest, Ozzie and Cora were NEVER the player Vizquel was. Vizquel has far more experience than either of them had as a player, was a better fielder, and a better hitter. He commands much more respect.

Vizquel would be an excellent hitting tutor for many players on the team also. Can you say bunting and situational hitting? Vizquel was like the prototypical 2 hitter.

As a player, he will probably see late inning work as a fielding replacement or pinch hitter when the team really needs a bunt.

Omar is arguably the best fielding shortstop in major league history and has always been known as a class act. Having him at $1m is a bargain!

oeo
11-20-2009, 03:43 PM
He's 43. If he has to play extensively, the White Sox are in big trouble.

Same is true if Lillibridge had to play everyday. I guess I'm missing where our bench should be full of starters.

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 03:53 PM
Same is true if Lillibridge had to play everyday. I guess I'm missing where our bench should be full of starters.


I just think there is far more upside to having a guy like Nix play everyday as opposed to Vizquel. I can't stand Lillibridge, but there's a far greater chance he improves than Vizquel improves. Its not a lot of money like has been pointed out. I just would rather of had the Sox maybe go above slot with a decent draft pick than spend it on a guy who people really have to reach to come up with real reasons at 43 years old he's an upgrade. Ozzie and Cora can't pay enough attention to Alexei, that's where Vizquel can really help. Please. These same people blame every hitter's struggles on Greg Walker like he has time to spend hours with everyone everyday, but 2 guys can't pay enough attention the the SS? As Ochocinco would say, Child, please.

g0g0
11-20-2009, 03:54 PM
I'm not going through all of the pages again, but ESPN is reporting the Sox are near a deal for him!

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=4674786&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines

oeo
11-20-2009, 03:59 PM
I just think there is far more upside to having a guy like Nix play everyday as opposed to Vizquel. I can't stand Lillibridge, but there's a far greater chance he improves than Vizquel improves. Its not a lot of money like has been pointed out. I just would rather of had the Sox maybe go above slot with a decent draft pick than spend it on a guy who people really have to reach to come up with real reasons at 43 years old he's an upgrade.

I'm not reaching for any reasons as to why this helps us. I think he's a great addition to the bench (someone that can really handle the bat...Nix and Lillibridge make little contact) and the clubhouse (we lacked leadership for our young players last year, this helps); not to mention, he's a better defender at SS than any other backup we had last year.

The only person 'reaching' is yourself. Nix and Lillibridge don't have much upside, and now you're bringing up the draft? That is reaching for reasons to dislike the deal.

Rockabilly
11-20-2009, 04:15 PM
http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman

great deal for the Sox

SOXSINCE'70
11-20-2009, 04:16 PM
Here's a tremendous Tudor:

http://mrlovegrove.mlon.co.uk/files/2007/09/henry.jpg
What about John Tudor??:D: Didn't he pitch for the Cardinals??

KenBerryGrab
11-20-2009, 04:18 PM
Do I get a tomato for the thread? It'd be my first!

spawn
11-20-2009, 04:20 PM
Do I get a tomato for the thread? It'd be my first!

:tomatoaward

Congrats!

Zisk77
11-20-2009, 04:21 PM
Hell, Omar is worth the money for a pinch sac. bunter alone! Whats not to like. He mentor Alexei/Bacon. Great at hit and running, bunting...all the small ball stuff. Great Defense, great base runner.

I know we should save the mil. so we can trade prospects for Adam fricken Dunn and then pay him all that green to be Jim Thome....(who we can just sign for a whole bunch less.):scratch:

DonnieDarko
11-20-2009, 04:21 PM
So, wait. We're actually going to have a damned good defensive backup at SS and 2B? Hallelujah!

BleacherBandit
11-20-2009, 04:30 PM
I don't know what the extent of Vizquel's impact on the development of Andrus, but if Alexei can turn out as good as him defensively, we'll have one of the best SS in the league.

I think Vizquel could be a great tutor/Tudor for Alexei. To be a Tudor, he'd probably have to take a time machine back in time to infiltrate the Tudor family line via a marriage to Bloody Mary or someone else. I mean, he looks like a Catholic doesn't he?

http://www.clevelandseniors.com/photos/assumpta/omar-vizquel-sister-assumpt.jpg

soxinem1
11-20-2009, 04:30 PM
Here's a tremendous Tudor:

http://mrlovegrove.mlon.co.uk/files/2007/09/henry.jpg

I don't know what the extent of Vizquel's impact on the development of Andrus, but if Alexei can turn out as good as him defensively, we'll have one of the best SS in the league.

I think Vizquel could be a great tutor/Tudor for Alexei. To be a Tudor, he'd probably have to take a time machine back in time to infiltrate the Tudor family line via a marriage to Bloody Mary or someone else. I mean, he looks like a Catholic doesn't he?

This guy was a pretty good Tudor too, and it wasn't all that long ago:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/baseball_cards/samples/1985_Fleer_Update.jpg

DonnieDarko
11-20-2009, 04:32 PM
...why does that baseball card look eerily like Ed Farmer? >_>

soxinem1
11-20-2009, 04:37 PM
At first I could not believe a rumored possible signing of a 42-year old no longer a SS guy could get 100 posts and counting......

Then I remembered this is WSI, and the off-season.....

Then I realized that Vizquel would be signed as a mentor to Ramirez......

Crash Davis comes to the White Sox!!!!!!!

michned
11-20-2009, 04:42 PM
This guy was a pretty good Tudor too, and it wasn't all that long ago:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/baseball_cards/samples/1985_Fleer_Update.jpg

Poor Tudor had a pretty good career but melted down in Game 7 of the '85 Series.

As far as Vizquel, I see him as more of a late inning replacement for Teahen at 3B, when they are just trying to protect a lead.

NLaloosh
11-20-2009, 04:45 PM
Kenny will explode if, once again, this deal falls through after being leaked.


Fall through? You mean there's competition for 43 year old shortstops?

soxinem1
11-20-2009, 04:46 PM
Fall through? You mean there's competition for 43 year old shortstops?

Who will probably sign a minor-league deal????

guillen4life13
11-20-2009, 04:47 PM
With this acquisition, at some point over the past decade, we will have had:

CF Kenny Lofton
SS Omar Vizquel
2B Roberto Alomar
DH Jim Thome
C Sandy Alomar, Jr.

Am I missing anyone?

soxinem1
11-20-2009, 04:52 PM
With this acquisition, at some point over the past decade, we will have had:

CF Kenny Lofton
SS Omar Vizquel
2B Roberto Alomar
DH Jim Thome
C Sandy Alomar, Jr.

Am I missing anyone?

Who were nearly 200 years of age combined when they left the team, if Vizquel indeed joins the White Sox.

You missed Contreras and El Duque. That is 100 years combined right there!!

However, I think the bigger question is........

Will Ozzie give up his #13 for Vizquel?

soxinem1
11-20-2009, 04:59 PM
Poor Tudor had a pretty good career but melted down in Game 7 of the '85 Series.

As far as Vizquel, I see him as more of a late inning replacement for Teahen at 3B, when they are just trying to protect a lead.

Maybe so, but he did get them there, and they should have won in six games.

That year he had TEN CG shutouts!!! Especially for a guy who threw about 85-86 MPH, that is dealing!!!!

guillen4life13
11-20-2009, 05:03 PM
Who were nearly 200 years of age combined when they left the team, if Vizquel indeed joins the White Sox.

You missed Contreras and El Duque. That is 100 years combined right there!!

However, I think the bigger question is........

Will Ozzie give up his #13 for Vizquel?

Ha. The point of my post was that these former Jndians came to the Sox past their prime.

LoveYourSuit
11-20-2009, 05:06 PM
Who were nearly 200 years of age combined when they left the team, if Vizquel indeed joins the White Sox.

You missed Contreras and El Duque. That is 100 years combined right there!!

However, I think the bigger question is........

Will Ozzie give up his #13 for Vizquel?


Albert Belle was here too but not this decade.

Start the Manny Ramirez to the Sox thread!

soxinem1
11-20-2009, 05:08 PM
Ha. The point of my post was that these former Jndians came to the Sox past their prime.

Sorry. I thought you meant guys who were L-O-N-G past their primes and near (or over) 40 years old. Then I could have added Griffey too.

Pear-Zin-Ski
11-20-2009, 05:22 PM
No complaints here. Nice to have a good IF backup.

peridot
11-20-2009, 05:38 PM
Will Ozzie give up his #13 for Vizquel?

I don't think so. (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/1895623,omar-vizquel-white-sox-20.article)

oeo
11-20-2009, 05:50 PM
I don't think so. (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/1895623,omar-vizquel-white-sox-20.article)

Hilarious that he still calls him a kid.

pudge
11-20-2009, 06:52 PM
Kenny always gets his man.

Haha, even if he's 55!

Brian26
11-20-2009, 07:07 PM
With this acquisition, at some point over the past decade, we will have had:

CF Kenny Lofton
SS Omar Vizquel
2B Roberto Alomar
DH Jim Thome
C Sandy Alomar, Jr.

Am I missing anyone?

Herbert Perry.

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 07:14 PM
I'm not reaching for any reasons as to why this helps us. I think he's a great addition to the bench (someone that can really handle the bat...Nix and Lillibridge make little contact) and the clubhouse (we lacked leadership for our young players last year, this helps); not to mention, he's a better defender at SS than any other backup we had last year.

The only person 'reaching' is yourself. Nix and Lillibridge don't have much upside, and now you're bringing up the draft? That is reaching for reasons to dislike the deal.

You are reaching. This is a guy who will be a far worse offensive player than Getz. He will not play much SS because Ramirez will be at SS. He will not play much 2B because Beckham will be at 2B. He may occassionally play 3rd. $1 million for him to play 3rd occassionally and bunt? Silly. After arb, the White Sox adding Teahan and Vizquel, will add between 41/2 and 5 million to their payroll. If they were patient, they could have done a lot better.

Craig Grebeck
11-20-2009, 07:17 PM
You are reaching. This is a guy who will be a far worse offensive player than Getz. He will not play much SS because Ramirez will be at SS. He will not play much 2B because Beckham will be at 2B. He may occassionally play 3rd. $1 million for him to play 3rd occassionally and bunt? Silly. After arb, the White Sox adding Teahan and Vizquel, will add between 41/2 and 5 million to their payroll. If they were patient, they could have done a lot better.
And how will his defense be? Pretty damn good. He's more flexible than anyone else on the roster and is more competent with the glove/bat than Lillibridge.

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 07:21 PM
And how will his defense be? Pretty damn good. He's more flexible than anyone else on the roster and is more competent with the glove/bat than Lillibridge.
He's going to be 43. His defense isn't what it was and most likely will be less in 2010. If you didn't like Chris Getz' arm, you won't like Omar Vizquel's.

chisox123
11-20-2009, 07:23 PM
He could make them worse. He was 2 for his last 28. Father time may have caught up to him. I would rather have the young guys making minimum myself and maybe parlay the extra $500k in an inseason pick-up or a higher than slot signing bonus.

Gordon Beckham was 2 for his first 28, that's a random stat that means absolutely nothing

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 07:25 PM
Gordon Beckham was 2 for his first 28, that's a random stat that means absolutely nothing
Then look at his 2008 in SF. I'm sure you'll have another excuse but he was horrible. He's not going to help you offensively unless he bunts.

oeo
11-20-2009, 07:34 PM
He's going to be 43. His defense isn't what it was and most likely will be less in 2010. If you didn't like Chris Getz' arm, you won't like Omar Vizquel's.

Now you're just full of ****.

Then look at his 2008 in SF. I'm sure you'll have another excuse but he was horrible. He's not going to help you offensively unless he bunts.

:lol: You're full of excuses.

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 07:43 PM
Now you're just full of ****.



:lol: You're full of excuses.
No I'm not. He said finishing the year when you are 42 years old 2 for 28 didn't mean a whole lot, so I told him to look at the season before. He cannot hit anymore, he doesn't steal bases anymore. I'd go as far as saying he was a great player not so long ago. Now he's a just a big of waste of $1 million as Lance Broadway.

oeo
11-20-2009, 07:49 PM
No I'm not. He said finishing the year when you are 42 years old 2 for 28 didn't mean a whole lot, so I told him to look at the season before. He cannot hit anymore, he doesn't steal bases anymore. I'd go as far as saying he was a great player not so long ago. Now he's a just a big of waste of $1 million as Lance Broadway.

Yes you are. You're stretching for every possible reason as to why he's not a good bench player. You're going to hurt yourself doing all that stretching.

dickallen15
11-20-2009, 07:52 PM
Yes you are. You're stretching for every possible reason as to why he's not a good bench player. You're going to hurt yourself doing all that stretching.


May 1, you will be agreeing with me.

oeo
11-20-2009, 07:59 PM
May 1, you will be agreeing with me.

Nope because even if he does get hurt, $1 million isn't as much as you're making it out to be. The extra money to keep Lillibridge off the 25 man roster is well worth it.

KRS1
11-20-2009, 08:03 PM
I don't see how anybody is against this. His D is still well above average and he's not going to be a huge rally killer as a backup in the 8/9 hole. He still doesn't SO a lot and he'll bring that bat control and knowledge of the situational minutiae at the dish that Ozzie can utilize.

Pablo_Honey
11-20-2009, 08:05 PM
If he came a little cheaper I would like this move (although I think 1 mil is as low as it can get for any veteran players) but Vizquel's not the same guy he used to be. I think they should just stick with Nix or Lillibridge. At least they have potential to be decent options off the bench. Seriously, the bench did not need to be addressed as much as, ooh I don't know, perhaps the bullpen? How about the crappy offense? Granted, it's only 1 mil but it's a bit much for a 43-year-old shortstop. Considering that Sox are trying to go cheap, I just don't get this move :scratch:

oeo
11-20-2009, 08:16 PM
If he came a little cheaper I would like this move (although I think 1 mil is as low as it can get for any veteran players) but Vizquel's not the same guy he used to be. I think they should just stick with Nix or Lillibridge. At least they have potential to be decent options off the bench. Seriously, the bench did not need to be addressed as much as, ooh I don't know, perhaps the bullpen? How about the crappy offense? Granted, it's only 1 mil but it's a bit much for a 43-year-old shortstop. Considering that Sox are trying to go cheap, I just don't get this move :scratch:

Lillibridge has potential to be a decent player off of what bench? Charlotte's? Lillibridge still doesn't understand that his skillset matches a David Eckstein type player. He thinks he's Chase Utley.

Please, 43-year-old Vizquel is more than a decent option off the bench. In fact, he's better than the options we had in the infield last year, A LOT better.

And do we have to have the, 'X should be addressed' and 'Y should be addressed' after every move? We haven't even reached the winter meetings yet. $1 million is nothing.

Brian26
11-20-2009, 08:19 PM
I don't see how anybody is against this. His D is still well above average and he's not going to be a huge rally killer as a backup in the 8/9 hole. He still doesn't SO a lot and he'll bring that bat control and knowledge of the situational minutiae at the dish that Ozzie can utilize.

Knowing the way Ozzie operates, Vizquel will end up starting 80 games for this team.

oeo
11-20-2009, 08:22 PM
Knowing the way Ozzie operates, Vizquel will end up starting 80 games for this team.

Good one, someone already used that.

A. Cavatica
11-20-2009, 08:29 PM
Ugh. I hate the idea of signing a 43-year old. Generally speaking, they don't have long and productive careers.

Is Charles Nagy available?

TheVulture
11-20-2009, 08:53 PM
Teal is implied, right?

I think teal is always implied with NLaloosh. The first hint is the user name.

thomas35forever
11-20-2009, 10:05 PM
Hilarious that he still calls him a kid.
My thoughts exactly. I wonder if he would call Jamie Moyer a kid. He was pitching for the Cubs three years before I was born and by the time I came out of the womb, he was gone.

DSpivack
11-20-2009, 10:15 PM
My thoughts exactly. I wonder if he would call Jamie Moyer a kid. He was pitching for the Cubs three years before I was born and by the time I came out of the womb, he was gone.

Vizquel is 43... Guillen is 45!

chisox123
11-20-2009, 10:30 PM
Vizquel is gunna be the Lindsey Hunter of the White Sox, except he'll play a bit more

Noneck
11-20-2009, 10:54 PM
My thoughts exactly. I wonder if he would call Jamie Moyer a kid. He was pitching for the Cubs three years before I was born and by the time I came out of the womb, he was gone.

And Moyer is over a year older that Ozwaldo.

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-21-2009, 01:12 AM
While I'm not crazy about signing someone as old as Vizquel, go for it. If anything maybe he can teach Alexei something useful and make him a better player at SS. He's a better fielder than Nix and anyone else on the team we have as a backup, and $1 mil. (what he made last year) is not over the Sox limit. Wouldn't be the worse thing that can happen to the team. It's another one of those minor adjustments like Teahen.

NLaloosh
11-21-2009, 05:52 AM
Wouldn't that money be better spent on Joe Borchard?

soxinem1
11-21-2009, 08:23 AM
Lillibridge has potential to be a decent player off of what bench? Charlotte's? Lillibridge still doesn't understand that his skillset matches a David Eckstein type player. He thinks he's Chase Utley.

Eckstein has had a pretty good career, much better than many expected.

In fact, I'd rather have him than Vizquel as a backup. I wish more of our players had his heart.

WSox597
11-21-2009, 09:14 AM
With this acquisition, at some point over the past decade, we will have had:

CF Kenny Lofton
SS Omar Vizquel
2B Roberto Alomar
DH Jim Thome
C Sandy Alomar, Jr.

Am I missing anyone?

Colon, twice.

Railsplitter
11-21-2009, 09:32 AM
:geezer:

Zisk77
11-21-2009, 09:38 AM
With this acquisition, at some point over the past decade, we will have had:

CF Kenny Lofton
SS Omar Vizquel
2B Roberto Alomar
DH Jim Thome
C Sandy Alomar, Jr.

Am I missing anyone?

David Riske
Herbert Perry
Albert Belle


I wouldn't mind adding Rafael Betancourt to the list at the right price.

dickallen15
11-21-2009, 09:56 AM
David Riske
Herbert Perry
Albert Belle


I wouldn't mind adding Rafael Betancourt to the list at the right price.

Alan Embree, brief as it was. I agree with Betancourt.

Tragg
11-21-2009, 12:18 PM
Good one, someone already used that.
For good reason:
Mack 06
Erstad 07

Also good reasons for the concern about not dealing with real priorities first:
Owens 08 (the intended starter)
DeWayne Wise 09
Kotasy 10?

cards press box
11-21-2009, 12:40 PM
This team is sorely lacking leadership, Omar brings some. It makes sense to bring in guys like Vizquel and Kotsay, who can mentor our younger guys, especially after hearing how Ozzie hated the way the vets were a bad example for the younger guys in 2009.

I agree. In fact, years ago, a team might have desinated Omar Vizquel as a "player-coach." Teams don't do that anymore but I expect that he would mentor both Alexei Ramirez and Gordon Beckham. What's more, Vizquel and Mark Kotsay are the start of what I hope is a solid bench. The Sox bench in 2009 was spotty, especially with regard to pinch hitting. Based on his track record, Kotsay will certainly help in that area.

Solid.

I like defense.

I, too, am a fan of good defense. Vizquel, like Luis Aparicio, could still play good SS in his early 40's. As a backup for SS, 2B and 3B, I don't see how the Sox could do much better. Good signing (assuming, of course, that the deal goes through).

BeefyD
11-22-2009, 04:36 PM
According to the AP, the Sox are close to a deal with Omar Visquel for backup SS behind Ramirez. As much as I have the utmost respect for Omar, he's been astounding in his career, does he have much left to bring to the table for us? As much as Kenny brings some good young kids here, he always seems to like signing players he's PLAYED against. :smile:

Curious to know what your thoughts are...

nug0hs
11-22-2009, 04:37 PM
There is an extensive thread about this in Whats The Score?

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=116647

oeo
11-22-2009, 04:53 PM
Eckstein has had a pretty good career, much better than many expected.

It was intended as a blast at Eckstein. Eckstein understood the player he was, and didn't try to be much more than that. He choked up on the bat and took what was given to him. He didn't have much talent, but he used what he had the right way. That's what Lillibridge needs to do: accept the player he is and stop trying to kill the ball every time. Put the bat on the ball and use his speed.

BeefyD
11-22-2009, 04:56 PM
Yes, I even searched prior to posting, but then I realized I spelled his name wrong in the search. :(: So, I accidentally started a thread which was obviously talked about in depth already.

Sockinchisox
11-23-2009, 11:46 AM
Update:

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=4682541

dickallen15
11-23-2009, 12:22 PM
According to Levine its a one year $1.375 million contract. Too much IMO.

Madscout
11-23-2009, 12:24 PM
If he can improve our sorely lacking Infield defense, I'm all for it. Maybe he can show Alexi and Gordo a thing or two. I don't know about you guys, but I see him more as a position coach than a player. Guy will probably be playing very little for us (please Ozzie), giving much needed rest. But he speaks Spanish and English, and thus can put his arm around Alexi or Gordo and say "listen kid..." when either of them does something wrong.

aryzner
11-23-2009, 01:06 PM
They just said on the Score that it's official.

spawn
11-23-2009, 01:09 PM
They just said on the Score that it's official.
Yep. it is.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091123&content_id=7705804&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

JermaineDye05
11-23-2009, 01:12 PM
Link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091123&content_id=7705804&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws)

soltrain21
11-23-2009, 01:18 PM
According to Levine its a one year $1.375 million contract. Too much IMO.

I KNEW you were going to say that.

Hitmen77
11-23-2009, 01:26 PM
For now our bench (aside from backup C) is Kotsay, Vizquel, and Nix. I hope Vizquel still has another decent season in him at age 43.

The big question marks for this lineup, of course, are still RF and DH.

RedHeadPaleHoser
11-23-2009, 01:28 PM
Backup and a mentoring role for Alexei and Beckham? For $ 1.3M?

Not a bad deal KW.

LoveYourSuit
11-23-2009, 01:28 PM
Now go get Blanco and we will have a very solid defensive bench with Vizquel, Nix, Kotsay, & Blanco.

CWSpalehoseCWS
11-23-2009, 01:30 PM
I like it. He'll be a nice backup, and hopefully he can teach Ramirex and maybe even Beckham a thing or two about defense. Nix might need to take notes, lots of notes.

SoxSpeed22
11-23-2009, 01:35 PM
Sounds good.

NLaloosh
11-23-2009, 01:36 PM
He played for $ 1 mil. last year. How did he earn a 30% pay increase? Has he had hip replacement?

JermaineDye05
11-23-2009, 01:39 PM
He played for $ 1 mil. last year. How did he earn a 30% pay increase? Has he had hip replacement?

Why does it matter? It's not like we could have used that left over $375,000 for another significant move.

voodoochile
11-23-2009, 01:39 PM
He played for $ 1 mil. last year. How did he earn a 30% pay increase? Has he had hip replacement?

This is an example of a why using percentages when talking about baseball raises is just plain silly...

PaleHoser
11-23-2009, 01:45 PM
Ozzie Guillen quote from the Sun-Times (link (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1895623,omar-vizquel-white-sox-20.article))

“I’ll tell you what, though, if this kid is on the team there’s no way in hell he’s wearing No. 13.’’

Providing Vizquel stays healthy, I think this doesn't bode well for both Lillibridge and particularly Jayson Nix. There is already a RH bat at 2B, and if Vizquel is your primary backup at 2B/SS/3B (he played all three for Rangers last year), does Nix still fit?

fox23
11-23-2009, 01:47 PM
Why does it matter? It's not like we could have used that left over $375,000 for another significant move.

That could have been 187,500 churros given out to fans! That would be pretty significant.

NLaloosh
11-23-2009, 01:47 PM
Seriously, the Sox overpaid him. I have no problem with the move but the guy is ancient and probably had no other suitors and if so, they wouldn't have given a 43 year old that hardly playe dlast year a big raise.

Anyway, this should pave the way for the Sox signing future HOF players. I predict the following signings:

2011 Craig Biggio
2012 Randy Johnson
2013 Ivan Rodriguez
2014 Chipper Jones
2015 Harold Baines

delben91
11-23-2009, 01:51 PM
Seriously, the Sox overpaid him. I have no problem with the move but the guy is ancient and probably had no other suitors and if so, they wouldn't have given a 43 year old that hardly playe dlast year a big raise.

Anyway, this should pave the way for the Sox signing future HOF players. I predict the following signings:

2011 Craig Biggio
2012 Randy Johnson
2013 Ivan Rodriguez
2014 Chipper Jones
2015 Harold Baines


Hilarious.

Boondock Saint
11-23-2009, 01:52 PM
I can't believe people are whining about signing a bench player.

spawn
11-23-2009, 01:54 PM
I can't believe people are whining about signing a bench player.
You do realize this is WSI, right? :wink:

Boondock Saint
11-23-2009, 01:57 PM
You do realize this is WSI, right? :wink:

Yeah, I know...same ****, different day.

Rocky Soprano
11-23-2009, 02:00 PM
I can't believe people are whining about signing a bench player.

I love when people bitch about the money like its coming directly out of their bank account.

He's a solid backup and I doubt his contact will seriously prevent the Sox from doing what needs to be done.

dickallen15
11-23-2009, 02:05 PM
I love when people bitch about the money like its coming directly out of their bank account.

He's a solid backup and I doubt his contact will seriously prevent the Sox from doing what needs to be done.
As a White Sox fan, the way they always talk about payroll and budget, you must keep one eye on the amount they are handing out to people who aren't going to play much.


The Sox added almost $5 million to their payroll swapping out Getz/Lillibridge or Nix for Teahan/Vizquel. Considering all the bargains that are supposed to be out there, and how much the White Sox always talk about being out of money, I don't see a huge upgrade. They still need bullpen help. OBP hasn't been addressed. Power isn't plentiful. Stealing bases with the roster now is a non event. They need a couple more bats. We will see what happens. He might have been a solid backup, but he will be 43 years old so who really knows what he does in 2010.

Lillian
11-23-2009, 02:34 PM
Perhaps he was acquired to mentor Beckham, not Alexei. Vizquel's mentoring efforts would probably be more productive with a quick study like Beckham.
Ramirez doesn't seem very coachable. How many times did the staff direct him to play closer to the bag on potential double play situations with a left handed hitter at the plate? He was very often late getting to second because he was out of position.

There may be some truth to the other rumors of Alexei being dealt.

I'd still like to see Gordon play SS. A double play combo of Beckham and Nix would be acceptable, .

dickallen15
11-23-2009, 02:42 PM
Perhaps he was acquired to mentor Beckham, not Alexei. Vizquel's mentoring efforts would probably be more productive with a quick study like Beckham.
Ramirez doesn't seem very coachable. How many times did the staff direct him to play closer to the bag on potential double play situations with a left handed hitter at the plate? He was very often late getting to second because he was out of position.

There may be some truth to the other rumors of Alexei being dealt.

I'd still like to see Gordon play SS. A double play combo of Beckham and Nix would be acceptable, .

You may be right. I don't see how if Ozzie or Cora get get through to Alexei that it would be a slam dunk Vizquel will. I also agree with Beckhame at SS. I think he's going to be the leader. Alexei is very flashy but I want the take charge guy at SS. I don't think they trade Alexei because his contract is just too favorable. Vizquel now makes more than he does.

Sargeant79
11-23-2009, 03:04 PM
Perhaps he was acquired to mentor Beckham, not Alexei. Vizquel's mentoring efforts would probably be more productive with a quick study like Beckham.
Ramirez doesn't seem very coachable. How many times did the staff direct him to play closer to the bag on potential double play situations with a left handed hitter at the plate? He was very often late getting to second because he was out of position.

There may be some truth to the other rumors of Alexei being dealt.

I'd still like to see Gordon play SS. A double play combo of Beckham and Nix would be acceptable, .

Re: the bolded statement...

I don't agree with that at all. Ramirez showed a good deal of improvement to his defense as the season went on, and it got to the point where he looked really damn good at short the last month or so of the year.

Alexei is still a pretty young guy, and he has only been playing baseball in the U.S. for 2 years now. I think we underestimate sometimes how much that can play a part in how he develops as a major league player.

34 Inch Stick
11-23-2009, 03:05 PM
Chone Figgens will be on the White Sox in 2014

TDog
11-23-2009, 03:10 PM
Vizquel broke Aparicio's record for games played at shortstop almost three decades after Aparicio broke Appling's record for most games played at shortstop. (Appling's record for most errors by a player eventually inducted into the Hall of Fame, however, is safe.) I suppose it was inevitable he would get the White Sox on his resume.

When Vizquel was in San Francisco, he looked done, especially at the plate. Certainly, he won't start ahead of Ramirez, even if he is a better defender. He won't start at second ahead of Beckham. I could see him starting at third base if things get ugly there. But I would guess he ends up a weak-hitting bench player with great defensive skills.

white sox bill
11-23-2009, 03:40 PM
Maybe Omar is next Julio Franco? Oh no.....

Dub25
11-23-2009, 03:47 PM
I'm reading all of this mentoring stuff. Alexei doesn't need mentoring unless the mentoring consist of simple english words and phrases such as, cut, let it through, I got it, yours, mine, I got 2nd...

Lip Man 1
11-23-2009, 03:53 PM
When does the Brent Lillibridge appreciation thread start?

LOL

Lip

white sox bill
11-23-2009, 03:59 PM
When does the Brent Lillibridge appreciation thread start?

LOL

Lip


Be glad to start one.

GoGoCrede
11-23-2009, 04:00 PM
I can't believe people are whining about signing a bench player.

Welcome, newbie.

I'm excited, but this does not bode well for Nix.

thomas35forever
11-23-2009, 04:25 PM
If he's cheap and not playing every day, I'll take a chance on him. I know I've said that already, but it's worth mentioning again.

You know how long Vizquel's been in the league? His baseball card was mentioned in a Simpsons episode during the show's third season.

GoGoCrede
11-23-2009, 04:26 PM
If he's cheap and not playing every day, I'll take a chance on him. I know I've said that already, but it's worth mentioning again.

You know how long Vizquel's been in the league? His baseball card was mentioned in a Simpsons episode during the show's third season.

Good Lord, he's been playing for almost as long as I've been alive (he's short one year).

Huisj
11-23-2009, 04:31 PM
Maybe Omar is next Julio Franco? Oh no.....

When Julio Franco was 43 and 44 years old, he hit .288/.363/.407 for two years in 606 plate appearances. If Omar is the next of that, then i think we'd all be pretty dang thrilled.

JermaineDye05
11-23-2009, 04:51 PM
Link (http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/2009/11/omar-vizquel-sees-no-problems-with-backup-role-with-white-sox.html)

Some interesting tid-bits mention that Ozzie plans on using Vizquel a lot early in the year considering Alexei's struggles in the early months.

Also something that I thought was interesting when they were discussing the number he would wear, Ozzie said he should take 23. Now we already were fairly certain that JD wasn't coming back but I saw that as another hint that JD will not be in a White Sox uniform next year. It was also interesting that Vizquel asked Aparicio if he could wear 11 to honor him, I wonder if that will actually wind up happening.

wassagstdu
11-23-2009, 04:57 PM
My Old Comiskey nostalgia shot that hangs on my office wall accidentally shows Vizquel taking batting practice for the Mariners. That was Harold Baines' last home game before he was traded to Texas -- 1989. Vizquel's rookie year. He had a terrible swing, as my picture shows, but he learned to hit a couple of years later. I did notice him that day, mainly for his awkwardness at the plate. He had not yet developed his matador style at short.

WSox597
11-23-2009, 04:57 PM
I like Guillen calling Vizquel "kid". Funny stuff, even if it's inadvertent. :redneck

I'm okay with this signing. Like others have said, it'll be more of a player-coach situation.

october23sp
11-23-2009, 05:42 PM
As stated a thousand times before, I like the move as long as Ozzie doesn't make him an everyday player. I think he will be great off the bench.

thomas35forever
11-23-2009, 06:20 PM
Good Lord, he's been playing for almost as long as I've been alive (he's short one year).
I was five days short of being three months old when he made his ML debut.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
11-23-2009, 07:05 PM
When does the Brent Lillibridge appreciation thread start?

LOL

Lip

I can already see that this appreciation thread wouldn't have a whole lot of appreciation in it...

My girlfriend would be devastated, though...for reasons unknown, she is a huge Lillibridge fan. I've called her out on this, wondering how she can love Lillibridge when she hates Tony Pena because "he sucks"...well, isn't Lillibridge the offensive version of Pena?

Back to the point, glad to see that we'll actually have a good defensive backup IF, however old he may be.

BadBobbyJenks
11-23-2009, 07:12 PM
Money is tight and we spend 5 million on a 43 year old back up and a mediocre 3rd baseman. I dont really get the plan, but ok.

GoGoCrede
11-23-2009, 07:12 PM
I can already see that this appreciation thread wouldn't have a whole lot of appreciation in it...

My girlfriend would be devastated, though...for reasons unknown, she is a huge Lillibridge fan. I've called her out on this, wondering how she can love Lillibridge when she hates Tony Pena because "he sucks"...well, isn't Lillibridge the offensive version of Pena?

Back to the point, glad to see that we'll actually have a good defensive backup IF, however old he may be.

I think many of us have a player we love irrationally. I really love Jayson Nix and Dewayne Wise (although he will always be beloved by Sox fans for the catch - I hope!).

sox1970
11-23-2009, 07:18 PM
I think many of us have a player we love irrationally. I really love Jayson Nix and Dewayne Wise (although he will always be beloved by Sox fans for the catch - I hope!).

I now wish he would have dropped the ball.

KenBerryGrab
11-23-2009, 07:22 PM
No, he cannot wear 11. No.

JB98
11-23-2009, 07:26 PM
No, he cannot wear 11. No.

That would defeat the purpose of retiring the number, wouldn't it?

A. Cavatica
11-23-2009, 07:28 PM
this signing = :turkeys

sox1970
11-23-2009, 07:29 PM
No, he cannot wear 11. No.

If Beckham can't wear 6, then yeah, it would be wrong for Vizquel getting 11. He should just wear 17, which was Carrasquel's.

JB98
11-23-2009, 07:33 PM
Money is tight and we spend 5 million on a 43 year old back up and a mediocre 3rd baseman. I dont really get the plan, but ok.

Yeah, I don't know what the hell they're doing either. But hopefully things become more clear as the offseason progresses.

DirtySox
11-23-2009, 07:37 PM
Yeah, I don't know what the hell they're doing either. But hopefully things become more clear as the offseason progresses.

I like the Vizquel signing, but it has me wondering if money is really that tight this offseason.

JB98
11-23-2009, 07:45 PM
I like the Vizquel signing, but it has me wondering if money is really that tight this offseason.

The Vizquel move taken on its own doesn't bother me. Even at this late stage of his career, he's better than Jayson Nix as a backup infielder, IMO. But you just wonder with the allegedly scarce resources if this money wouldn't be better spent on some relief pitching. Hopefully, the crying poor thing is just an act, but who knows?

It just all depends on what other moves are coming. It is only November, after all.

GoGoCrede
11-23-2009, 08:01 PM
I now wish he would have dropped the ball.

:o::o::o::scratch:

veeter
11-23-2009, 08:23 PM
Well, the Sox finally have their man that will definitely lay down a bunt.

Rdy2PlayBall
11-23-2009, 08:28 PM
OMG, one more good bat to this offense and I don't think we have to touch the offense for the rest of the off-season. It pretty much has to be an outfielder/leadoff hitter... maybe the Sox will go Yankees and sign someone like Figgens, then I love our offense.

Still need someone for the bullpen to replace Dotel... doesn't have to be as good as Dotel since I'm sure our BEAST rotation will give the bullpen the needed rest it didn't get last year.

I'm really excided about 2010. I would be REALLY STINKIN supprized if we didn't get 90++ wins.

p.s. This all isn't a reaction to Vizquel... it just makes me happy to know we have very very good depth in the infield and possibly outfield.

TheBigHurtST
11-23-2009, 08:30 PM
Great, another old guy. Visquel is pretty solid last I checked, but I'm really not that excited. On the flip side, some solid defense is what we need so I guess I should be happy.

JB98
11-23-2009, 08:31 PM
OMG, one more good bat to this offense and I don't think we have to touch the offense for the rest of the off-season. It pretty much has to be an outfielder/leadoff hitter... maybe the Sox will go Yankees and sign someone like Figgens, then I love our offense.

Still need someone for the bullpen to replace Dotel... doesn't have to be as good as Dotel since I'm sure our BEAST rotation will give the bullpen the needed rest it didn't get last year.

I'm really excided about 2010. I would be REALLY STINKIN supprized if we didn't get 90++ wins.

p.s. This all isn't a reaction to Vizquel... it just makes me happy to know we have very very good depth in the infield and possibly outfield.

????

We have Rios and oft-injured Quentin. One of the main reasons I'm not excited right now is the fact that our outfield looks awful. I still think KW has a ton of work to do if the 2010 Sox are going to be a force to be reckoned with. Hopefully, he gets it done.

GoGoCrede
11-23-2009, 08:34 PM
I'm really excided about 2010. I would be REALLY STINKIN supprized if we didn't get 90++ wins.


Excited, even. Perhaps even surprised. :cool:

Rdy2PlayBall
11-23-2009, 08:34 PM
????

We have Rios and oft-injured Quentin. One of the main reasons I'm not excited right now is the fact that our outfield looks awful. I still think KW has a ton of work to do if the 2010 Sox are going to be a force to be reckoned with. Hopefully, he gets it done.If we get an outfielder like I said, then we do. I said possibly.

1)*some good starter*
2)Quentin
3)Rios
Kotsay <- great back up
Nix <- good back up
Teehen <- can play if needed
Danks <- maybe maybe maybe

Those back ups aren't half bad, and definitely better than our last year's backups.... (Wise, BA, Nix). That's depth to me...

JB98
11-23-2009, 08:36 PM
If we get an outfielder like I said, then we do. I said possibly.

1)*some good starter*
2)Quentin
3)Rios
Kotsay <- great back up
Nix <- good back up
Teehen <- can play if needed
Danks <- maybe maybe maybe

Those back ups aren't half bad, and definetly better than our last year's backups.... (Wise, BA, Nix). That's depth to me...

I'm not so much worried about the backups. I think the starting lineup is subpar.

Rdy2PlayBall
11-23-2009, 08:38 PM
I'm not so much worried about the backups. I think the starting lineup is subpar.Again, if we get a good starting outfielder! xD

Quentin
Rios
????????? ~ Figgens?

That looks amazing...
and if it's not Figgens but someone still good, then it's still very good.

JB98
11-23-2009, 08:40 PM
Again, if we get a good starting outfielder! xD

Quentin
Rios
????????? ~ Figgens?

That looks amazing...
and if it's not Figgens but someone still good, then it's still very good.

I don't like Figgins. I don't want the Sox to sign him. We can't trust Quentin to stay healthy. Rios, I don't know what his deal is.

DumpJerry
11-23-2009, 09:01 PM
Quick:

What player in the just-completed season of 2009 had 207 chances at Third, Short and Second and accumulated zero errors?

Yeah. Mr. Vizquel.

As I recall, it felt like our infield had 208 errors per game in 2009.

Rdy2PlayBall
11-23-2009, 09:02 PM
I don't like Figgins. I don't want the Sox to sign him. We can't trust Quentin to stay healthy. Rios, I don't know what his deal is.
I'm sure Quentin is working on a health plan to stay... not broken... Pods did it. CQ is tough.

Rios has one bad season his whole career... I'm pretty sure we can assume we don't stay like the way he played last year....

Figgens is great, who cares about money, your not paying for it. If they sign him, they are better. If they sign a power bat, they are also better. :P

No team in baseball goes into the season without some sort of heath questions... would you rather us waist 20mil on starting outfielders when Quentin and Rios can easily not have something wrong happen? I will admit it was a bit of a stretch saying they don't have to touch the offense... but one more good bat and we have a better offense than last year.

+Rios
+Quentin
+Beckham
+Infield depth
better than last year

Considering this will be for a whole season... all 4 of those things are new.

JB98
11-23-2009, 09:05 PM
I'm sure Quentin is working on a health plan to stay... not broken... Pods did it. CQ is tough.

Rios has one bad season his whole career... I'm pretty sure we can assume we don't stay like the way he played last year....

Figgens is great, who cares about money, your not paying for it. If they sign him, they are better. If they sign a power bat, they are also better. :P

No team in baseball goes into the season without some sort of heath questions... would you rather us waist 20mil on starting outfielders when Quentin and Rios can easily not have something wrong happen? I will admit it was a bit of a stretch saying they don't have to touch the offense... but one more good bat and we have a better offense than last year.

+Rios
+Quentin
+Beckham
+Infield depth
better than last year

Considering this will be for a whole season... all 4 of those things are new.

No he isn't. This team needs somebody who can knock in some damn runs. Figgins isn't that guy. Neither is Mark Teahen. They are two bats short in the lineup and two arms short in the bullpen. KW has his work cut out for him.

Rdy2PlayBall
11-23-2009, 09:11 PM
No he isn't. This team needs somebody who can knock in some damn runs. Figgins isn't that guy. Neither is Mark Teahen. They are two bats short in the lineup and two arms short in the bullpen. KW has his work cut out for him.Ok. Please restate that.

He is great, but not for this team. I would rather get a big bat for replace Thome and Dye... but leadoff is a VERY IMPORTANT spot. I would love it if we signed Thome cheap and got a leadoff hitter. Maybe make a trade or two to maybe get another good bat.

Rios, Quentin, Konerko, Alexei, and Beckham can all drive in runs and hit some homers. If we get two more fat guys we are going to suck again. We need one big bat, and a speed bat.

I'm going to slowly walk away from this conversation until anther deal comes up, because I'll never be negative about 2010. xD

DSpivack
11-23-2009, 09:15 PM
I'm sure Quentin is working on a health plan to stay... not broken... Pods did it. CQ is tough.

Rios has one bad season his whole career... I'm pretty sure we can assume we don't stay like the way he played last year....

Figgens is great, who cares about money, your not paying for it. If they sign him, they are better. If they sign a power bat, they are also better. :P

No team in baseball goes into the season without some sort of heath questions... would you rather us waist 20mil on starting outfielders when Quentin and Rios can easily not have something wrong happen? I will admit it was a bit of a stretch saying they don't have to touch the offense... but one more good bat and we have a better offense than last year.

+Rios
+Quentin
+Beckham
+Infield depth
better than last year

Considering this will be for a whole season... all 4 of those things are new.

I really don't see how we have a better offense than last season. Beckham and TCQ were on the team, and as much as they struggled at times, losing Dye and Thome hurts production quite a bit. Our middle of the order right now is Konerko-Beckham-Quentin. I don't think that scares anyone.

JB98
11-23-2009, 09:16 PM
Ok. Please restate that.

He is great, but not for this team. I would rather get a big bat for replace Thome and Dye... but leadoff is a VERY IMPORTANT spot. I would love it if we signed Thome cheap and got a leadoff hitter. Maybe make a trade or two to maybe get another good bat.

Rios, Quentin, Konerko, Alexei, and Beckham can all drive in runs and hit some homers. If we get two more fat guys we are going to suck again. We need one big bat, and a speed bat.

I'm going to slowly walk away from this conversation until anther deal comes up, because I'll never be negative about 2010. xD

The four playoff teams in the American League all had two guys with 99 or more RBIs. We didn't have anybody with 90 RBIs. As a matter of fact, we had only three guys with more than 70 RBIs, and one of them got traded Aug. 31.

We are so short on run producers it is ridiculous.

dickallen15
11-23-2009, 09:18 PM
I don't know how a team that wasn't .500 but added Mark Teahan and a 43 year old Omar Vizquel becomes a 90 win team. I hope they fix the bullpen and find a couple of hitters.

Jerko
11-23-2009, 09:36 PM
What is he going to offer Ozzie for #13?

soxinem1
11-23-2009, 09:38 PM
What is he going to offer Ozzie for #13?

Maybe he can do a Rios and go in reverse. How's #31??

Rdy2PlayBall
11-23-2009, 09:39 PM
Lol @ how you guys ignore the things I keep saying about "with another big bat" :rolling:

In 2005 we only had one player with more than 90 rbis. (Konerko 100) And 5 with 70+
New bat may bring 100... Konerko might throw out a 90+. Quentin will easily get 100+ if another 2008 season comes, or even close. Beckham, Rios, Alexei, Konerko, and Quentin will most likely have at least 70+. A new big bat will bring another 70+.

The Sox suck if you look at evey player in the worst possible way, but so does almost every other team. Anything can happen. I predict good things... WITH ANOTHER BAT! Get to work KW.

NLaloosh
11-23-2009, 10:48 PM
Listen, I know that I was saying that I think the Sox paid Omar a little too much but I'm still glad that they got him. I think it is a good move that will help the team win more games.

However, I am absolutely certain that KW is not done and is looking to add a big bat - a big left handed bat and I'm sure that he will one way or another.

It could be Adrian Gonzalez or Jim Thome or Russell Branyan or Hideki Matsui or someone else but he will.

DSpivack
11-23-2009, 11:16 PM
Lol @ how you guys ignore the things I keep saying about "with another big bat" :rolling:

In 2005 we only had one player with more than 90 rbis. (Konerko 100) And 5 with 70+
New bat may bring 100... Konerko might throw out a 90+. Quentin will easily get 100+ if another 2008 season comes, or even close. Beckham, Rios, Alexei, Konerko, and Quentin will most likely have at least 70+. A new big bat will bring another 70+.

The Sox suck if you look at evey player in the worst possible way, but so does almost every other team. Anything can happen. I predict good things... WITH ANOTHER BAT! Get to work KW.

What new bat can the Sox realistically bring in that would drive in 100 with this lineup? No Sox player drove in 100 in 2009, and gone are guys that drove in 81 and 74, respectively, in Thome and Dye. Beckham playing a full season will help, but penciling in TCQ or Konerko for 100 I think is very optimistic. 85-90 is more realistic. The Sox simply do not have any feared middle of the order run producers, and it's very hard to see them winning a division without one. I don't see at this point how Alexei or Rios will 'most likely' get 70, which Ramirez did not do and Rios barely did in 2009.

The most optimistic I can see being for next year is if this team adds a potent bat, as you say, but where that comes from right now with little money to spend I have no idea. Even adding one, however, I think merely gets us back to 2009 levels offensively. The other way they'll contend is if they somehow allow about 100 fewer runs than they did in 2009, when the pitching staff was the team's strength. While a full year of Peavy will help, that's still hard for me to see with a team that is poor defensively.

areilly
11-24-2009, 12:10 AM
I don't know how a team that wasn't .500 but added Mark Teahan and a 43 year old Omar Vizquel becomes a 90 win team. I hope they fix the bullpen and find a couple of hitters.

Haven't you heard? Every Sox player is going to match or exceed their statistically best season. At once. In a row.

Team of Destiny!

PaleHoser
11-24-2009, 12:12 AM
No, he cannot wear 11. No.

Agreed.

Just to play devil's advocate, maybe Ozzie should think about giving up #13. The Sox issued it to Antonio Osuna after Ozzie was not re-signed, so I don't think the club will retire it. Besides, Ozzie wears a hooded sweatshirt so no one sees his jersey anyway.

Trav
11-24-2009, 12:14 AM
If Omar can teach Alexi how to turn a double play and field a routine grounder correctly every time then he will be worth every penny, whatever they are giving him.

Nellie_Fox
11-24-2009, 12:15 AM
The Sox issued it to Antonio Osuna after Ozzie was not re-signed, so I don't think the club will retire it. Besides, Ozzie wears a hooded sweatshirt so no one sees his jersey anyway.They won't retire it on the basis of his time as a player. The book on his time as manager is not yet closed.

cards press box
11-24-2009, 01:13 AM
I don't know how a team that wasn't .500 but added Mark Teahan and a 43 year old Omar Vizquel becomes a 90 win team. I hope they fix the bullpen and find a couple of hitters.

I can think of a few reasons:

(1) Starting pitching. Jake Peavy and Freddy Garcia looked healthy at the end of the year. A rotation of Peavy, John Danks, Gavin Floyd, Mark Buerhle and Garcia (with Daniel Hudson as the 6th starter) is quite strong.

(2) A better infield. Alexei Ramirez has a full year under his belt at SS and the Sox will have a full year of Gordon Beckham at 2B. Mark Teahan's best position is 3B and should benefit from not playing all over the place. Teahan also brings a lefty bat to a righty dominant lineup. Paul Konerko had a nice year last year. I am encouraged about this infield.

(3) A better bench. Just having a full year of Mark Kotsay and Omar Vizquel brings some depth (and a good pinch hitter in Kotsay) to a bench that was spotty, at best, last year. The pinch hitting of the 2009 Sox was awful. Last year's bench just didn't contribute a lot offensively or defensively. The bench is incomplete at this point but the Sox have some options for back up catcher (Henry Blanco? Miguel Olivo?) and utility infielder (Jayson Nix?).

(4) Minor league depth. The recent Arizona Fall League championship game, as well as the recent ascent of Beckham and Hudson and the ability to trade pitching prospects for Peavy, show that the Sox minor league affiliates are a lot more productive than they were just a few years ago. Jordan Danks and Brett Morel played great and may be in Chicago, soon.

(5) A good outfield. Alex Rios had an off year, no question about it. But he has a track record that suggests that he should play a lot better (20-30 HR and 20-30 SB) once he gets settled in Chicago. A foot injury hampered Carlos Quentin, it's true. We have no reason to think he shouldn't be a 100% by spring training. Yes, the Sox need to add another outfielder or two and maybe a DH. A lot of options are out there on the free agent market and, given the current economic market, some good hitters will be available for the Sox. The challenge will be for the Sox to add some speed and pop, preferably left handed pop. I think KW can do it.

(6) The bullpen. The Sox still have Bobby Jenks, Matt Thornton and D.J. Carrasco. Octavio Dotel is probably gone and Scott Linebrink was ineffective last year. Shoring up the rest of the bullpen beyond Jenks, Thornton and Carrasco might be KW's biggest challenge this offseason. Let's see what he has planned.

JermaineDye05
11-24-2009, 01:29 AM
I can think of a few reasons:

(1) Starting pitching. Jake Peavy and Freddy Garcia looked healthy at the end of the year. A rotation of Peavy, John Danks, Gavin Floyd, Mark Buerhle and Garcia (with Daniel Hudson as the 6th starter) is quite strong.

(2) A better infield. Alexei Ramirez has a full year under his belt at SS and the Sox will have a full year of Gordon Beckham at 2B. Mark Teahan's best position is 3B and should benefit from not playing all over the place. Teahan also brings a lefty bat to a righty dominant lineup. Paul Konerko had a nice year last year. I am encouraged about this infield.

(3) A better bench. Just having a full year of Mark Kotsay and Omar Vizquel brings some depth (and a good pinch hitter in Kotsay) to a bench that was spotty, at best, last year. The pinch hitting of the 2009 Sox was awful. Last year's bench just didn't contribute a lot offensively or defensively. The bench is incomplete at this point but the Sox have some options for back up catcher (Henry Blanco? Miguel Olivo?) and utility infielder (Jayson Nix?).

(4) Minor league depth. The recent Arizona Fall League championship game, as well as the recent ascent of Beckham and Hudson and the ability to trade pitching prospects for Peavy, show that the Sox minor league affiliates are a lot more productive than they were just a few years ago. Jordan Danks and Brett Morel played great and may be in Chicago, soon.

(5) A good outfield. Alex Rios had an off year, no question about it. But he has a track record that suggests that he should play a lot better (20-30 HR and 20-30 SB) once he gets settled in Chicago. A foot injury hampered Carlos Quentin, it's true. We have no reason to think he shouldn't be a 100% by spring training. Yes, the Sox need to add another outfielder or two and maybe a DH. A lot of options are out there on the free agent market and, given the current economic market, some good hitters will be available for the Sox. The challenge will be for the Sox to add some speed and pop, preferably left handed pop. I think KW can do it.

(6) The bullpen. The Sox still have Bobby Jenks, Matt Thornton and D.J. Carrasco. Octavio Dotel is probably gone and Scott Linebrink was ineffective last year. Shoring up the rest of the bullpen beyond Jenks, Thornton and Carrasco might be KW's biggest challenge this offseason. Let's see what he has planned.

This post was a win for the most part, however Rios' averages suggest that we can expect about 15-20 HR from him and not 20-30. However, playing in the Cell for a full year, I could see him getting 25+ HR.

Craig Grebeck
11-24-2009, 03:01 AM
I can think of a few reasons:

(1) Starting pitching. Jake Peavy and Freddy Garcia looked healthy at the end of the year. A rotation of Peavy, John Danks, Gavin Floyd, Mark Buerhle and Garcia (with Daniel Hudson as the 6th starter) is quite strong.

(2) A better infield. Alexei Ramirez has a full year under his belt at SS and the Sox will have a full year of Gordon Beckham at 2B. Mark Teahan's best position is 3B and should benefit from not playing all over the place. Teahan also brings a lefty bat to a righty dominant lineup. Paul Konerko had a nice year last year. I am encouraged about this infield.

(3) A better bench. Just having a full year of Mark Kotsay and Omar Vizquel brings some depth (and a good pinch hitter in Kotsay) to a bench that was spotty, at best, last year. The pinch hitting of the 2009 Sox was awful. Last year's bench just didn't contribute a lot offensively or defensively. The bench is incomplete at this point but the Sox have some options for back up catcher (Henry Blanco? Miguel Olivo?) and utility infielder (Jayson Nix?).

(4) Minor league depth. The recent Arizona Fall League championship game, as well as the recent ascent of Beckham and Hudson and the ability to trade pitching prospects for Peavy, show that the Sox minor league affiliates are a lot more productive than they were just a few years ago. Jordan Danks and Brett Morel played great and may be in Chicago, soon.

(5) A good outfield. Alex Rios had an off year, no question about it. But he has a track record that suggests that he should play a lot better (20-30 HR and 20-30 SB) once he gets settled in Chicago. A foot injury hampered Carlos Quentin, it's true. We have no reason to think he shouldn't be a 100% by spring training. Yes, the Sox need to add another outfielder or two and maybe a DH. A lot of options are out there on the free agent market and, given the current economic market, some good hitters will be available for the Sox. The challenge will be for the Sox to add some speed and pop, preferably left handed pop. I think KW can do it.

(6) The bullpen. The Sox still have Bobby Jenks, Matt Thornton and D.J. Carrasco. Octavio Dotel is probably gone and Scott Linebrink was ineffective last year. Shoring up the rest of the bullpen beyond Jenks, Thornton and Carrasco might be KW's biggest challenge this offseason. Let's see what he has planned.
Eh, debateable. It's probably his worst.

doublem23
11-24-2009, 04:02 AM
Eh, debateable. It's probably his worst.

This statement is based on what?

Teahen himself says he's most comfortable at third.

Craig Grebeck
11-24-2009, 04:17 AM
This statement is based on what?

Teahen himself says he's most comfortable at third.
And the fielding data says he's not very good there.

I definitely made an overstatement. I don't think there's enough evidence either way.

white sox bill
11-24-2009, 06:28 AM
I can think of a few reasons:

(1) Starting pitching. Jake Peavy and Freddy Garcia looked healthy at the end of the year. A rotation of Peavy, John Danks, Gavin Floyd, Mark Buerhle and Garcia (with Daniel Hudson as the 6th starter) is quite strong.

(2) A better infield. Alexei Ramirez has a full year under his belt at SS and the Sox will have a full year of Gordon Beckham at 2B. Mark Teahan's best position is 3B and should benefit from not playing all over the place. Teahan also brings a lefty bat to a righty dominant lineup. Paul Konerko had a nice year last year. I am encouraged about this infield.

(3) A better bench. Just having a full year of Mark Kotsay and Omar Vizquel brings some depth (and a good pinch hitter in Kotsay) to a bench that was spotty, at best, last year. The pinch hitting of the 2009 Sox was awful. Last year's bench just didn't contribute a lot offensively or defensively. The bench is incomplete at this point but the Sox have some options for back up catcher (Henry Blanco? Miguel Olivo?) and utility infielder (Jayson Nix?).

(4) Minor league depth. The recent Arizona Fall League championship game, as well as the recent ascent of Beckham and Hudson and the ability to trade pitching prospects for Peavy, show that the Sox minor league affiliates are a lot more productive than they were just a few years ago. Jordan Danks and Brett Morel played great and may be in Chicago, soon.

(5) A good outfield. Alex Rios had an off year, no question about it. But he has a track record that suggests that he should play a lot better (20-30 HR and 20-30 SB) once he gets settled in Chicago. A foot injury hampered Carlos Quentin, it's true. We have no reason to think he shouldn't be a 100% by spring training. Yes, the Sox need to add another outfielder or two and maybe a DH. A lot of options are out there on the free agent market and, given the current economic market, some good hitters will be available for the Sox. The challenge will be for the Sox to add some speed and pop, preferably left handed pop. I think KW can do it.

(6) The bullpen. The Sox still have Bobby Jenks, Matt Thornton and D.J. Carrasco. Octavio Dotel is probably gone and Scott Linebrink was ineffective last year. Shoring up the rest of the bullpen beyond Jenks, Thornton and Carrasco might be KW's biggest challenge this offseason. Let's see what he has planned.
Good points, but to play Devils Advocate, you have to assume something will bite us in the butt that hasn't been an issue the last few yrs. Seems like you fix the plumbing, the electrical goes to hell.

Corlose 15
11-24-2009, 09:20 AM
I think right now the bullpen is Jenks, Thornton, Carrasco, Linebrink (we're stuck with him like it or not), Hudson. There are some good arms in there with the potential for success. I think they add either one or two more arms to it depending on if they want to have 6 or 7 relievers, with the rotation as strong as it is they probably could go with 6. Maybe you can go after someone like Betancourt to fill the late innings right hander role and you can keep Carrasco in middle relief.

Maybe they could go with Nunez or another prospect for the last spot. I think Jenks is the anchor to the whole pen though because it typically has gone well when he is going well and roles are defined.

fox23
11-24-2009, 09:49 AM
I can think of a few reasons:


(5) A good outfield. Alex Rios had an off year, no question about it. But he has a track record that suggests that he should play a lot better (20-30 HR and 20-30 SB) once he gets settled in Chicago. A foot injury hampered Carlos Quentin, it's true. We have no reason to think he shouldn't be a 100% by spring training. Yes, the Sox need to add another outfielder or two and maybe a DH. A lot of options are out there on the free agent market and, given the current economic market, some good hitters will be available for the Sox. The challenge will be for the Sox to add some speed and pop, preferably left handed pop. I think KW can do it.



What concerns me is that we have no reason to believe that Quentin will be healthy for an entire season either. Also, Rios didn't just have an off year, he had a historically bad year. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=4526015 Which version are we going to get this year? If either of these guys don't live up to their potential, we could be in for a difficult season.

Carolina Kenny
11-24-2009, 09:52 AM
And the fielding data says he's not very good there.

I definitely made an overstatement. I don't think there's enough evidence either way.

I have high hopes for the Sox IF this year. TCM was much improved the last month of the season. GB should be great at 2nd.

If they leave MT alone at third, I feel that he will adapt quickly to the positoin and play at MLB average which is better than Josh Field's, or Bacon's first couple of months.

So the IF defense issues have been addressed. With our strong starting staff and decent IF defense, we should not see as many ugly games next year.

I think Nix is a better overall player than Lillibridge, so goodbye to Lillibridge, you can join Christian McKay. As for Nix, he makes me miss Jim Morrison the power hitting 2nd sacker in days of yore.

Craig Grebeck
11-24-2009, 11:29 AM
I have high hopes for the Sox IF this year. TCM was much improved the last month of the season. GB should be great at 2nd.

If they leave MT alone at third, I feel that he will adapt quickly to the positoin and play at MLB average which is better than Josh Field's, or Bacon's first couple of months.

So the IF defense issues have been addressed. With our strong starting staff and decent IF defense, we should not see as many ugly games next year.

I think Nix is a better overall player than Lillibridge, so goodbye to Lillibridge, you can join Christian McKay. As for Nix, he makes me miss Jim Morrison the power hitting 2nd sacker in days of yore.
I like the flexibility we've got, and would love to see Nix at 3rd against certain lefties. He raked last year (albeit in a small sample) but I feel like our whole lineup would have more flexibility in that situation.

sox1970
11-24-2009, 11:39 AM
I think right now the bullpen is Jenks, Thornton, Carrasco, Linebrink (we're stuck with him like it or not), Hudson. There are some good arms in there with the potential for success. I think they add either one or two more arms to it depending on if they want to have 6 or 7 relievers, with the rotation as strong as it is they probably could go with 6. Maybe you can go after someone like Betancourt to fill the late innings right hander role and you can keep Carrasco in middle relief.

Maybe they could go with Nunez or another prospect for the last spot. I think Jenks is the anchor to the whole pen though because it typically has gone well when he is going well and roles are defined.

Tony Peņa better be good next year.

Corlose 15
11-24-2009, 12:07 PM
Tony Peņa better be good next year.

I forgot about Peņa. You're right though, him taking a step forward would really solidfy things back there.

So you've got
Jenks
Thornton
Pena
Carrasco
Linebrink
Hudson

Craig Grebeck
11-24-2009, 12:10 PM
I forgot about Pena. You're right though, him taking a step forward would really solidfy things back there.

So you've got
Jenks
Thornton
Pena
Carrasco
Linebrink
Hudson
I would go:

Thornton
Hudson
Pena
Linebrink
Nuņez
Williams/Santeliz
Carrasco