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voodoochile
11-06-2009, 12:40 PM
Continue here...

Old Thread Linky: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=116392

HangWiffum
11-06-2009, 12:45 PM
I'm ok with Gordon moving to 2nd as i've always thought that's where he'd end up. Teahen at 3rd makes me cringe because his production is weak for that position and he is not a great defensive player to balance that. Has anyone else thought that Kenny is gonna bank on Viciedo coming up at some point during the season? It's the only logical conclusion i can make from this. Not sure i like it. This team is not better with Teahen at 3rd.

munchman33
11-06-2009, 12:45 PM
KW has put himself in a great position with this deal. The infield is locked up without adding all that much salary. He's got one hole in the outfield and one at DH or two holes in the outfield. Both of those positions should be easy to fill in free agency if he goes that route, as there's a buyers market (especially at DH).

soxinem1
11-06-2009, 12:46 PM
http://www.rd4u.org.uk/gallery/tom.jpg

'WHY, WHY, WHY??'

khan
11-06-2009, 12:46 PM
Agreed with the other posters that cite the additional $2M making this deal more palatable. In my view, the cash from KC is the only thing that keeps this deal from being a blunder from a payroll viewpoint.

As to Teahen himself, if he's going to be a starter for this team, REGARDLESS of position, he's got to up his OPS to above .800. This is particularly true if he's going to be the starting 3B.

Having said that, at his current level of performance, he's a nice, versatile addition to a bench. That is, if KW later acquires a player of a higher level than Teahen @ 3B or corner OF this offseason.

dickallen15
11-06-2009, 12:46 PM
KW has put himself in a great position with this deal. The infield is locked up without adding all that much salary. He's got one hole in the outfield and one at DH or two holes in the outfield. Both of those positions should be easy to fill in free agency if he goes that route, as there's a buyers market (especially at DH).

Didn't he basically have that before this deal with $2 million extra to spend?

voodoochile
11-06-2009, 12:48 PM
Agreed with the other posters that cite the additional $2M making this deal more palatable. In my view, the cash from KC is the only thing that keeps this deal from being a blunder from a payroll viewpoint.

As to Teahen himself, if he's going to be a starter for this team, REGARDLESS of position, he's got to up his OPS to above .800. This is particularly true if he's going to be the starting 3B.

Having said that, at his current level of performance, he's a nice, versatile addition to a bench. That is, if KW later acquires a player of a higher level than Teahen @ 3B or corner OF this offseason.

Walk will fix him...:o: :tongue: :D:

soxinem1
11-06-2009, 12:49 PM
I'm ok with Gordon moving to 2nd as i've always thought that's where he'd end up. Teahen at 3rd makes me cringe because his production is weak for that position and he is not a great defensive player to balance that. Has anyone else thought that Kenny is gonna bank on Viciedo coming up at some point during the season? It's the only logical conclusion i can make from this. Not sure i like it. This team is not better with Teahen at 3rd.

Got that right. The only offensive category Teahan will come close to leading the team in is K's.

Teahan at 3B reminds me of the Steve Lyons days there. And those days were not good.

OTOH, Fields replaces Jacobs at 1B in KC, and Getz takes 2B.

If Teahan was a bench guy, sure, this is okay. But what else does he have to do to prove he is NOT a regular MLB player?

Waysouthsider
11-06-2009, 12:49 PM
I just love how KW was waiting on this one and pounced right away...if you look at the research on Teahen he could have a giant upside.....he was decent last year even after getting hurt. His power was down, but he might have a lot more pop in the future since he has shown signs of it in the past....hits to all fields too. Teahen sure wasn't on my radar...don't know how he does it.

I don't like losing Getz though....I thought he had a lot of potential...Fields was a tease....:D:

khan
11-06-2009, 12:52 PM
Walk will fix him...:o: :tongue: :D:

Well, him.
AND Quentin.
AND try to get somebody, ANYBODY in the lineup to reach an OPS of .850 or higher.
AND try to help the team score more runs.
AND help Beckham continue to develop into stardom.
AND help Ramirez continue to develop.
AND reverse the downward trend that has been Alex Rios' career since they started testing for 'roids.
AND help whatever leadoff man KW signs, since it looks like Pods is gone.

Balfanman
11-06-2009, 12:53 PM
As to Teahen himself, if he's going to be a starter for this team, REGARDLESS of position, he's got to up his OPS to above .800. This is particularly true if he's going to be the starting 3B.

I tend to agree with you and I think that he can do it. If the Sox don't play him all over the diamond like the Royals did, he has a chance to settle down and become closer to the player he was projected to be 3-4 seasons ago. Moving to the cell will probaly add to his HR production and take away a double or two. I think that it is possible to see him produce around 25 HR & 80 - 90 rbi.

Corlose 15
11-06-2009, 12:54 PM
Thinking from a team wide power standpoint, they really have to make up from the power output loss of Dye and Thome.

You figure you'll get a boost from Quentin staying healthy, a full season of Rios, and a full season of Beckham. Teahen probably figures to hit a few more homeruns since he is gap doubles hitter and a few of those doubles in Kaufmann Stadium will be HR at the Cell.

I think they can probably get another power bat for the OF/DH spot (Matsui?) and I'd like them to get some speed for the other OF position or possibly to lead off.

khan
11-06-2009, 12:54 PM
OTOH, Fields replaces Jacobs at 1B in KC, and Getz takes 2B.
I disagree on both of these. Neither Fields nor Getz is better than Jacobs or Callaspo at 1B or 2B, respectively.

oeo
11-06-2009, 12:56 PM
Got that right. The only offensive category Teahan will come close to leading the team in is K's.

Teahan at 3B reminds me of the Steve Lyons days there. And those days were not good.

OTOH, Fields replaces Jacobs at 1B in KC, and Getz takes 2B.

If Teahan was a bench guy, sure, this is okay. But what else does he have to do to prove he is NOT a regular MLB player?

Jacobs was relegated to being a DH against right handers, Butler is their first baseman. And why would the Royals bench Callaspo in favor of Getz?

PalehosePlanet
11-06-2009, 12:57 PM
Well, him.
AND Quentin.
AND try to get somebody, ANYBODY in the lineup to reach an OPS of .850 or higher.
AND try to help the team score more runs.
AND help Beckham continue to develop into stardom. AND help Ramirez continue to develop.
AND reverse the downward trend that has been Alex Rios' career since they started testing for 'roids.
AND help whatever leadoff man KW signs, since it looks like Pods is gone.

Alex Rios was a two-time all-star AFTER the league started testing for steroids. He never had huge power numbers.

You can talk about his struggles; fine by me, but to suggest that he was on 'roids is just flat out reckless and stupid.

Waysouthsider
11-06-2009, 12:58 PM
12:35pm: White Sox GM Ken Williams told reporters Teahen will play third base, with Gordon Beckham moving to second. He told MLB.com's Scott Merkin (http://twitter.com/scottmerkin/status/5484698742) that Scott Podsednik is unlikely to re-sign and the DH position might not be decided (http://twitter.com/scottmerkin/status/5484679994) until the end of the offseason.

rdwj
11-06-2009, 01:03 PM
12:35pm: White Sox GM Ken Williams told reporters Teahen will play third base, with Gordon Beckham moving to second. He told MLB.com's Scott Merkin (http://twitter.com/scottmerkin/status/5484698742) that Scott Podsednik is unlikely to re-sign and the DH position might not be decided (http://twitter.com/scottmerkin/status/5484679994) until the end of the offseason.

Kenny being Kenny

dickallen15
11-06-2009, 01:12 PM
Kenny being Kenny

I don't know if this is a smokescreen. I really don't think they want to jerk Beckham around. If they tell him he's going to be at second, I fully expect he will be at second.

Pear-Zin-Ski
11-06-2009, 01:14 PM
We have a lineup filled with guys that have to prove themselves in 2010 in order for us to win the Central. Hoping for the best....

oeo
11-06-2009, 01:18 PM
We have a lineup filled with guys that have to prove themselves in 2010 in order for us to win the Central. Hoping for the best....

Maybe Ozzie can get 'Us Against the World' going again.

munchman33
11-06-2009, 01:20 PM
Didn't he basically have that before this deal with $2 million extra to spend?

Not at all, no.

khan
11-06-2009, 01:22 PM
Alex Rios was a two-time all-star AFTER the league started testing for steroids. He never had huge power numbers.

You can talk about his struggles; fine by me, but to suggest that he was on 'roids is just flat out reckless and stupid.

I never wrote that he had huge power numbers, nor did I post that he did 'roids. I posted that his offensive production and his career have been on a downward trend since then. As a result, Walker will have to "fix him." Do you disagree?

Daver
11-06-2009, 01:22 PM
12:35pm: White Sox GM Ken Williams told reporters Teahen will play third base, with Gordon Beckham moving to second. He told MLB.com's Scott Merkin (http://twitter.com/scottmerkin/status/5484698742) that Scott Podsednik is unlikely to re-sign and the DH position might not be decided (http://twitter.com/scottmerkin/status/5484679994) until the end of the offseason.

So he announced that he addressed the below average infield defense by making it worse.

Can't wait for the season to start.

dickallen15
11-06-2009, 01:24 PM
Not at all, no.

I think he did, he just swapped out Getz for Teahen. I know Teahen is great and all, but if he played at the same level he played the past 3 years for the White Sox, most would come to the conclusion he's not very good at baseball. I know a lot of scouts really like him, but there are plenty of guys scouts love that don't pan out. Hopefully we will get to see him play in games that matter. What is scary is his .175 average with no power with 2 out and RISP the past 2 seasons.

Pear-Zin-Ski
11-06-2009, 01:24 PM
Maybe Ozzie can get 'Us Against the World' going again.

It's more like 'Us against Ourselves'. Rameriez, Quentin and Rios all know how to play exceptional baseball, but decided not to in 2009. We don't have to be a well-oiled machine running at 100% in 2010, as witnessed this year the AL Central is ours for the taking. I just hope everything works out.

Hitmen77
11-06-2009, 01:40 PM
12:35pm: White Sox GM Ken Williams told reporters Teahen will play third base, with Gordon Beckham moving to second. He told MLB.com's Scott Merkin (http://twitter.com/scottmerkin/status/5484698742) that Scott Podsednik is unlikely to re-sign and the DH position might not be decided (http://twitter.com/scottmerkin/status/5484679994) until the end of the offseason.

The Sox still have 2 spots in the lineup to fill: One OF spot and DH.

What does he mean that the DH spot might not be decided until the end of the offseason? That sounds like they're not likely to go after a DH via trade or free agency and could just end up having players from within the organization compete for that job in spring training. I have no idea who that could be (Viciedo? Flowers?:o:).

Who is going to bat leadoff next season?

thomas35forever
11-06-2009, 02:07 PM
Well, this makes everything all the more interesting. Beckham spent all this time trying to learn third base and the Sox move him again. Talk about messing with a guy's psyche.

I'm still not confident in Alexei's defense at short. Is Kenny afraid to move him back to second when Beckham is a natural shortstop and Alexei led the team in errors last season? I understand putting Teahen at third, which I expected to happen, but why can't Beckham and Alexei switch spots? I know Alexei is also a natural shortstop, but he looked like a minor leaguer in the field last season.

And if both Pods and Figgins are out of the picture, who the hell bats leadoff? Rios? Ramirez? Do the Sox want Rios to put more emphasis on power or speed? This is all too damn confusing.

munchman33
11-06-2009, 02:09 PM
I think he did, he just swapped out Getz for Teahen. I know Teahen is great and all, but if he played at the same level he played the past 3 years for the White Sox, most would come to the conclusion he's not very good at baseball. I know a lot of scouts really like him, but there are plenty of guys scouts love that don't pan out. Hopefully we will get to see him play in games that matter. What is scary is his .175 average with no power with 2 out and RISP the past 2 seasons.

Teahen has something Getz doesn't possess - upside. Mark at his worse is slightly better than what you'd get production wise with Getz. But yes, this is contingent upon Teahen living up to potential.

munchman33
11-06-2009, 02:09 PM
So he announced that he addressed the below average infield defense by making it worse.

Can't wait for the season to start.

Relay throws home have a prayer now. :shrug:

guillensdisciple
11-06-2009, 02:10 PM
Maybe putting Teahen on a team where runners get on base for him will actually make him more useful for the Sox.

I believe the Royals were last in almost every offensive category.

hi im skot
11-06-2009, 02:12 PM
Teahen has something Getz doesn't possess - upside. Mark at his worse is slightly better than what you'd get production wise with Getz. But yes, this is contingent upon Teahen living up to potential.

Ridiculous.

munchman33
11-06-2009, 02:13 PM
The Sox still have 2 spots in the lineup to fill: One OF spot and DH.

What does he mean that the DH spot might not be decided until the end of the offseason? That sounds like they're not likely to go after a DH via trade or free agency and could just end up having players from within the organization compete for that job in spring training. I have no idea who that could be (Viciedo? Flowers?:o:).

Who is going to bat leadoff next season?

All free agents are going to be signed before spring training? That would be a first.

munchman33
11-06-2009, 02:13 PM
Ridiculous.

Find me a scout that disagrees.

wulfy
11-06-2009, 02:14 PM
Is Flowers ready to split a DH role with Kotsay? And give AJ an occasional breather?

I just don't see us adding anyone external who is going to have a price tag attached to him.

Hope I'm wrong, but I'm the same guy who got crucified here last year when I suggested last off season they were going to drop payroll.

whitem0nkey
11-06-2009, 02:15 PM
steve stone just said on B&B its a good trade for the sox. that's all i needed to hear.

dickallen15
11-06-2009, 02:16 PM
Maybe putting Teahen on a team where runners get on base for him will actually make him more useful for the Sox.

I believe the Royals were last in almost every offensive category.
One knock on him is he has trouble hitting in those situations. He has hit .175 with no power with RISP and 2 out the past 2 seasons. One thing that will be interesting is this guy hasn't played in games that matter all that much. Hopefully, the Sox will play in a lot of those. I wonder how he will handle it.

dickallen15
11-06-2009, 02:18 PM
Find me a scout that disagrees.
Keith Law. He loves this deal for the Royals. He says Teahen is a 45/50 while Getz and Fields are 45s, cheaper and under control longer.

Huisj
11-06-2009, 02:25 PM
One knock on him is he has trouble hitting in those situations. He has hit .175 with no power with RISP and 2 out the past 2 seasons. One thing that will be interesting is this guy hasn't played in games that matter all that much. Hopefully, the Sox will play in a lot of those. I wonder how he will handle it.

But it was the Royals. How many times do they even get a RISP?

DirtySox
11-06-2009, 02:25 PM
News from Kenny Williams: Beckham moves to 2B. Teahen plays 3B. Pods return "not likely." A Thome return "we might have to revisit that."http://twitter.com/ChuckGarfien/status/5486531281

PeoriaSoxFan
11-06-2009, 02:27 PM
I liked this deal overall, but now knowing that they plan on using him as a full time player is concerning. He has been in the league 5 years, so he should have shown what he is by now. Average ok, not spectacular, limited power, slugging and on base percentage not real impressive. I would prefer Beltre and Teahen as a supersub. There is a long ways to go, KW will certainly strike again.

Hitmen77
11-06-2009, 02:28 PM
The Sox still have 2 spots in the lineup to fill: One OF spot and DH.

What does he mean that the DH spot might not be decided until the end of the offseason? That sounds like they're not likely to go after a DH via trade or free agency and could just end up having players from within the organization compete for that job in spring training. I have no idea who that could be (Viciedo? Flowers?:o:).

Who is going to bat leadoff next season?All free agents are going to be signed before spring training? That would be a first.


:rolleyes: Yeah, because that's exactly what I said. I said "KW absolutely intends to have Viciedo, Flowers, or other internal players be our only choice for DH because all free agents will be signed before spring training starts." My exact words!
:dtroll:

dickallen15
11-06-2009, 02:30 PM
One thing is for sure, Teahen, Getz, Nix, Lillibridge, Ramirez in CF, Beckham at 3B,SS or 2B, none if it really matters if the bullpen isn't fixed.

Daver
11-06-2009, 02:34 PM
One thing is for sure, Teahen, Getz, Nix, Lillibridge, Ramirez in CF, Beckham at 3B,SS or 2B, none if it really matters if the bullpen isn't fixed.

The best bullpen in the game can look bad with a crappy defensive team behind them, as it sits now that is exactly what the Sox will have.

Hitmen77
11-06-2009, 02:39 PM
News from Kenny Williams: Beckham moves to 2B. Teahen plays 3B. Pods return "not likely." A Thome return "we might have to revisit that."


http://twitter.com/ChuckGarfien/status/5486531281

Interesting. I like Thome, but my biggest concern is his age (he'll be 40 next year) and the chance that might mean more injuries and/or a bigger drop off in production.

soxinem1
11-06-2009, 02:41 PM
I tend to agree with you and I think that he can do it. If the Sox don't play him all over the diamond like the Royals did, he has a chance to settle down and become closer to the player he was projected to be 3-4 seasons ago. Moving to the cell will probaly add to his HR production and take away a double or two. I think that it is possible to see him produce around 25 HR & 80 - 90 rbi.

http://slog.thestranger.com/files/2007/08/bong.jpg

soxinem1
11-06-2009, 03:03 PM
So he announced that he addressed the below average infield defense by making it worse.

Can't wait for the season to start.

Not only that, Teahan hits like a pre-steriods SS. No power, XBH, RBI, etc., but he does swing and miss a lot.

And part of the reason why he has never been able to hold a position is because he has sucked at all of them.

So I guess coming here will make him better.

And to steal a catch-phrase from around here, 'Sodfather will fix him'.

broker3d
11-06-2009, 03:16 PM
Not only that, Teahan hits like a pre-steriods SS. No power, XBH, RBI, etc., but he does swing and miss a lot.

And part of the reason why he has never been able to hold a position is because he has sucked at all of them.

So I guess coming here will make him better.

And to steal a catch-phrase from around here, 'Sodfather will fix him'.

Teahen was moved from 3rd because one of the top 3 prospects in baseball was ready for the bigs, and is a 3rd basemen.

munchman33
11-06-2009, 03:40 PM
Keith Law. He loves this deal for the Royals. He says Teahen is a 45/50 while Getz and Fields are 45s, cheaper and under control longer.

Well, considering a 50 has upside and a 45 does not...

45's are basically league average without potential. 50's are league average with potential.

Ditka v. God
11-06-2009, 03:43 PM
I don't understand all the outrage over this trade, judging by some of the reactions we've become the Pirates/Nationals in one fell swoop. Some people guaranteeing a 62-100 season next year? Really?!!

We basically traded our 8/9 hitter and an AAAA player for someone that was batting near .300 until August last year with some pop. In my eyes, it's the equivalent of trading David Eckstein and Joe Borchard for Casey Blake, which sounds like a pretty fair trade to me. :shrug:

dickallen15
11-06-2009, 03:44 PM
Well, considering a 50 has upside and a 45 does not...

45's are basically league average without potential. 50's are league average with potential.
LMAO. Why would he love the trade if Getz and Fields had no potential but Teahan could be a star?BTW here is the BP explaination of the 20-80 scale. You, once again, are wrong.


The Scouting Scale:
Scores for a player’s attributes, be they the traditional five tools for a position player or individual offerings for a pitcher, are graded on the 20-80 scouting scale. As to why the scale is 20-80 as opposed to something seemingly more logical like 0-100, I don’t have an answer for you, but I’m looking. Grades are given on a base-5 system (40, 45, 50, 55, 60, etc.). I know of one organization that did allow all scores (like 53 or 41), but they eventually saw it as splitting hairs and went back to counting by fives. Some organizations got rid of the zeros and grade players on a 2-8 scale. A score of 50 is major-league average, 60 is above-average (also referred to as “plus”), and 70 is among the best (“plus-plus”). 80 is top of the charts, and not a score that gets thrown around liberally. 80s in any category are rare, and the scoring system is definitely a strong curve that regresses to around 50 at the major league level, but lower as you move down.

munchman33
11-06-2009, 03:47 PM
:rolleyes: Yeah, because that's exactly what I said. I said "KW absolutely intends to have Viciedo, Flowers, or other internal players be our only choice for DH because all free agents will be signed before spring training starts." My exact words!
:dtroll:


You basically did, yes. There'll be half a dozen DH candadites in free agency still available in March, and willing to sign for significantly less for a full time gig. But, despite this, you said we're likely not to go to free agency or trade for the DH. It was a baseless assumption to make.

munchman33
11-06-2009, 03:49 PM
LMAO. Why would he love the trade if Getz and Fields had no potential but Teahan could be a star?

Because they cost less? Because they're under control longer? Because the Royals have more holes and need more players?

I think the Royals won the trade too. But our everyday roster is still better now, and we got rid of a piece we weren't going to use in Fields.

spawn
11-06-2009, 03:50 PM
We basically traded our 8/9 hitter and an AAAA player for someone that was batting near .300 until August last year with some pop. In my eyes, it's the equivalent of trading David Eckstein and Joe Borchard for Casey Blake, which sounds like a pretty fair trade to me. :shrug:
Casey Blake plays better defense than Teahen. I was ok with this trade until it as mentioned that Beckham will be learning a new position (again!) by moving to second and Teahen will be the starting third baseman. One of, if not the biggest problem the Sox had this past season was infield defense. That has not gotten any better. Ugh.

Daver
11-06-2009, 03:50 PM
But our everyday roster is still better now, and we got rid of a piece we weren't going to use in Fields.

No it isn't.

munchman33
11-06-2009, 03:51 PM
Casey Blake plays better defense than Teahen. I was ok with this trade until it as mentioned that Beckham will be learning a new position (again!) by moving to second and Teahen will be the starting third baseman. One of, if not the biggest problem the Sox had this past season was infield defense. That has not gotten any better. Ugh.

Second base is a more important defensive position than third base (and before you disagree, look at how many more outs 2B are involved in), and our defense at second last year was among the worst in baseball.

Zisk77
11-06-2009, 03:52 PM
Jacobs was relegated to being a DH against right handers, Butler is their first baseman. And why would the Royals bench Callaspo in favor of Getz?

because callaspo may be the worts defensive 2b with the worst range in baseball.

Rdy2PlayBall
11-06-2009, 03:53 PM
Guys, this obviously means we are getting a big/contact bat for the DH or RF position. There is so much time left this off-season it's sad. I like this trade because Teahen has been playing for THE ROYALS. That means probably less RBI opportunities and a less hitter-friendly park.

I see it as we make our defense for solid, our depth more solid, and our offense is getting there. We need someone to replace Dye, Teahen is obviously not it, so there is probably going to be a lot more crazy stuff happening this off season.

OR we get Dye for cheaper than the option, which would be cool. :)

Daver
11-06-2009, 03:55 PM
Second base is a more important defensive position than third base (and before you disagree, look at how many more outs 2B are involved in), and our defense at second last year was among the worst in baseball.

And with Beckham at 2nd that will probably continue.

Rdy2PlayBall
11-06-2009, 03:57 PM
And with Beckham at 2nd that will probably continue.Beckham looked very solid at 3rd last year, and 2nd seems to have the easier plays.

Why do you think Beckham's defense is among the worst in the league? What kind of fan are you? :tongue:

Lip Man 1
11-06-2009, 03:59 PM
Here's the recap.

I sincerely hope Kenny is flying under the radar because if the Sox intend to sit out the free agent market AGAIN in what could again be a buyer's market and if Jordan Danks is your starting outfielder AND leadoff man in April, it's gonna be a long season regardless of how good the starting staff is.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/1869364,white-sox-teahen-dye-06.article

Lip

oeo
11-06-2009, 04:01 PM
because callaspo may be the worts defensive 2b with the worst range in baseball.

I doubt they're going to put his bat on the bench for average, at best, defense from Chris Getz. Maybe if Getz was some kind of defensive star, but he's not.

munchman33
11-06-2009, 04:01 PM
And with Beckham at 2nd that will probably continue.

Well, I hope you're wrong.

Zisk77
11-06-2009, 04:04 PM
Not only that, Teahan hits like a pre-steriods SS. No power, XBH, RBI, etc., but he does swing and miss a lot.

And part of the reason why he has never been able to hold a position is because he has sucked at all of them.

So I guess coming here will make him better.

And to steal a catch-phrase from around here, 'Sodfather will fix him'.


I would argue he has not hit to potential because he has been asked to play a new position every 5 minutes. Since he will play one position (which he is pretty good at despite what some say) and have better hitters around hi, how about we give him the benefit of the doubt and see what the 28 yr old could do for a year?

Its funny, many hear are worrying that moving Beckham around will effect his psyche, but some of those same people degrade Teahen without regard to his situation.

Jim Shorts
11-06-2009, 04:06 PM
And with Beckham at 2nd that will probably continue.

baseless point

Zisk77
11-06-2009, 04:07 PM
I doubt they're going to put his bat on the bench for average, at best, defense from Chris Getz. Maybe if Getz was some kind of defensive star, but he's not.

I would think KC would look to move Callaspo.

Daver
11-06-2009, 04:08 PM
Well, I hope you're wrong.

So do I, just like I hoped I was wrong on Josh Fields, Jerry Owens, Dewayne Wise, and Jeremy Reed just to mention a few.

munchman33
11-06-2009, 04:10 PM
So do I, just like I hoped I was wrong on Josh Fields, Jerry Owens, Dewayne Wise, and Jeremy Reed just to mention a few.

I'd like to think Gordon has at least a little more physical talent than those guys do.

munchman33
11-06-2009, 04:11 PM
Not only that, Teahan hits like a pre-steriods SS. No power, XBH, RBI, etc., but he does swing and miss a lot.



WHAT?

Teahen had 38 doubles last year. Without having an everyday position. And while battling injury. And playing in a lineup with nobody else driving the ball at all.

Tragg
11-06-2009, 04:33 PM
Williams just made the infield defense worse, didn't improve the offense and the biggest offseason need - a right fielder- remains unfilled.

What scout told Williams that this guy is a quality third baseman? The same one that sold him on Betemit?

KRS1
11-06-2009, 04:34 PM
Quick question. Was there something wrong with Mark last year that caused his second half dropoff. I mean, he was pretty darn good at the dish in the first half and pooped the bed the last two and half months of the season.

Lip Man 1
11-06-2009, 04:49 PM
Sound like JD doesn't it? The difference is he costs seven million less (assuming he gets five million in arbitration...)

If Kenny continues to cry poor that seven million could go a long way towards helping things.

Lip

mantis1212
11-06-2009, 04:55 PM
Well, I hope you're wrong.

There's a good chance of that, since he was wrong about bringing Beckham up too early last year. I think Gordon will be solid at 2B next year.

JB98
11-06-2009, 05:48 PM
Beckham is a SS. Why can't we play him there? :scratch:

iamkoza
11-06-2009, 05:51 PM
Teahan isn't good enough to be an every day 3rd baseman, his stats prove that, he's 28 any potential improvement should have happened progessively over the last 2-3 years but I don't see it... not a huge fan of this deal... if rios turns out to be the turd that he was last season, next year's lineup could be even worse than 2009...

Rdy2PlayBall
11-06-2009, 05:51 PM
Beckham is a SS. Why can't we play him there? :scratch:Alexei is better. Why do we automatically take offensive still and throw it in as defensive skill? Alexei played amazing at 2nd in 2008, Beckham playd decent at 3B in 2009. ==== Alexei stays at short until he proves he can't play there.

JB98
11-06-2009, 05:54 PM
Alexei is better. Why do we automatically take offensive still and throw it in as defensive skill? Alexei played amazing at 2nd in 2008, Beckham playd decent at 3B in 2009. ==== Alexei stays at short until he proves he can't play there.

That's an overstatement, although I was satisfied with Ramirez's play at 2B in 2008. I'd put him back at 2B.

I don't like Ramirez at SS. The Sox apparently do.

I don't like Teahan as an everyday player and I don't like the fact that they are going to force Beckham to learn a new position. Again.

KRS1
11-06-2009, 05:55 PM
Beckham is a SS. Why can't we play him there? :scratch:


Apparently, Ozzie saw enough in Lexi to think he can do better next year, and I guess I did too. He's just so flippin' hot and cold out there, it's killing him. He'll make more ridiculous plays than the vast majority of SS in the league, but then he'll boot the routine one right after. It makes sense to give a guy more than a year at one position before you completely toss him under the bus.

Pablo_Honey
11-06-2009, 06:01 PM
Beckham is a SS. Why can't we play him there? :scratch:

For that same reason we had Alexei switch position to shortstop. That turned out very well for us. In all seriousness, I am frustrated with Alexei's approach to the game both offensively and defensively, but Kenny and Ozzie are dead-set on keeping Alexei at SS. Unless Alexei is traded or fins himself back into Ozzie's doghouse, he's shortstop. Case closed.

Also, I remember reading on most scouting reports on Beckham saying that he was a little iffy as a shortstop and it was expected that he would move to second base eventually. I'm sure he can improve at shortstop given the opportunity but it's not a guarantee he will do well. Of course, he probably won't make as many mental mistakes as Alexei did.

JB98
11-06-2009, 06:02 PM
Apparently, Ozzie saw enough in Lexi to think he can do better next year, and I guess I did too. He's just so flippin' hot and cold out there, it's killing him. He'll make more ridiculous plays than the vast majority of SS in the league, but then he'll boot the routine one right after. It makes sense to give a guy more than a year at one position before you completely toss him under the bus.

Well, I certainly hope Ozzie is right about Ramirez, since Alexei is going to be our shortstop no matter what I think. I'd rather things work out for the Sox and me be proven wrong than the other way around.

Here's my opinion: Beckham is our best player and we should put him at his best position.

Brian26
11-06-2009, 06:03 PM
I don't like Ramirez at SS. The Sox apparently do.

The Sox like Alexei's salary right now at SS. That's what's keeping him in the fold. As much as player development has been lacking over the years with the Sox, I'll give the organization credit for wasting no time in getting rid of players who make consistent mental mistakes in the field. Cheap salary and all, I think Ramirez is on a short-leash right now.

Brian26
11-06-2009, 06:08 PM
Williams just made the infield defense worse, didn't improve the offense and the biggest offseason need - a right fielder- remains unfilled.

It's way too early to throw Kenny under the bus. He hasn't even started yet.

Look back no further than the 04/05 offseason when a majority of his moves happened in late December (Dye, Lee for Pods) and into January (AJ/Iguchi).

JB98
11-06-2009, 06:12 PM
It's way too early to throw Kenny under the bus. He hasn't even started yet.

Look back no further than the 04/05 offseason when a majority of his moves happened in late December (Dye, Lee for Pods) and into January (AJ/Iguchi).

I get the feeling he's going to trade for an outfielder.

russ99
11-06-2009, 06:14 PM
Williams just made the infield defense worse, didn't improve the offense and the biggest offseason need - a right fielder- remains unfilled.

What scout told Williams that this guy is a quality third baseman? The same one that sold him on Betemit?

Do you really think Teahen is going to play infield with any regularity?

The offseason's just starting. Maybe they dealt Getz because they think C.J. Retherford is close enough to the bigs to replace him. Maybe we'll add another infielder...

Brian26
11-06-2009, 06:14 PM
I get the feeling he's going to trade for an outfielder.

My hunch is that Teahen doesn't open the season at 3B. Just a hunch, but I have a feeling Adrian Beltre might be on Kenny's "Big Board".

russ99
11-06-2009, 06:16 PM
My hunch is that Teahen doesn't open the season at 3B. Just a hunch, but I have a feeling Adrian Beltre might be on Kenny's "Big Board".

Let's say there's lots of infielders as FAs and potentially trade targets. OF is very thin this year...

russ99
11-06-2009, 06:21 PM
For that same reason we had Alexei switch position to shortstop. That turned out very well for us. In all seriousness, I am frustrated with Alexei's approach to the game both offensively and defensively, but Kenny and Ozzie are dead-set on keeping Alexei at SS. Unless Alexei is traded or fins himself back into Ozzie's doghouse, he's shortstop. Case closed.

Also, I remember reading on most scouting reports on Beckham saying that he was a little iffy as a shortstop and it was expected that he would move to second base eventually. I'm sure he can improve at shortstop given the opportunity but it's not a guarantee he will do well. Of course, he probably won't make as many mental mistakes as Alexei did.

Alexei did make mistakes, but he has a true aptitude for shortstop and has probably top-10 range in the AL at the position.

He's hitting a contract year next season, and he'll be much more familiar with what he can and can't do, so I expect much better play defensively.

SOXSINCE'70
11-06-2009, 06:23 PM
http://www.rd4u.org.uk/gallery/tom.jpg

'WHY, WHY, WHY??'

"Delilah!"

Sorry, I had to complete the lyric.:D:

SOXSINCE'70
11-06-2009, 06:28 PM
Walk will fix him...:o: :tongue: :D:

No, COOP will fix him.He fixes everything.:D:

JB98
11-06-2009, 06:29 PM
Alexei did make mistakes, but he has a true aptitude for shortstop and has probably top-10 range in the AL at the position.

He's hitting a contract year next season, and he'll be much more familiar with what he can and can't do, so I expect much better play defensively.

I hope so, given that there are only 14 in the league.

Alexei is an instinctive player, but he's not a smart player. I just think it's hard to win championships when you've got a guy making so many sloppy mistakes in the middle infield.

soxinem1
11-06-2009, 06:31 PM
WHAT?



Teahen had 38 doubles last year. Without having an everyday position. And while battling injury. And playing in a lineup with nobody else driving the ball at all.

He had 34 doubles last year, and in The Cell that translates to about 25.

And what was his SLG percentage BTW?

Teahan will be the Todd Ritchie of position players.

soxinem1
11-06-2009, 06:33 PM
My hunch is that Teahen doesn't open the season at 3B. Just a hunch, but I have a feeling Adrian Beltre might be on Kenny's "Big Board".

I could live with that, and Hank Blalock or Carlos Delgado at DH. At least all the K's will be accompanied by production.

Brian26
11-06-2009, 07:50 PM
I could live with that, and Hank Blalock or Carlos Delgado at DH. At least all the K's will be accompanied by production.

Delgado sucks. I don't want him anywhere near the Sox, especially after he vetoed a trade here six years ago.

soxinem1
11-06-2009, 08:25 PM
Delgado sucks. I don't want him anywhere near the Sox, especially after he vetoed a trade here six years ago.

Delgado will be a potential steal for someone. And he'll bring more LH power than Teahan, which is what we really need.

And as far as vetoing trades, what about Peavy?:?:

Zisk77
11-06-2009, 08:27 PM
He had 34 doubles last year, and in The Cell that translates to about 25.

And what was his SLG percentage BTW?

Teahan will be the Todd Ritchie of position players.


Where do those 9 doubles go...except maybe becoming hr's...oh no!

Zisk77
11-06-2009, 08:29 PM
He had 34 doubles last year, and in The Cell that translates to about 25.

And what was his SLG percentage BTW?

Teahan will be the Todd Ritchie of position players.

I'm going to go on record and say that this will go as another great trade for KW.

soxinem1
11-06-2009, 08:31 PM
Where do those 9 doubles go...except maybe becoming hr's...oh no!

More like singles. The power alleys in The Cell harm doubles hitters.

Teahan will have enough problems reaching the warning track on fly balls.

Zisk77
11-06-2009, 10:21 PM
More like singles. The power alleys in The Cell harm doubles hitters.

Teahan will have enough problems reaching the warning track on fly balls.

I do not think he'll have any trouble hitting the ball out. He's a big, strong kid. He is finally getting to play his natural position. He is healthy (sprained both thumbs and had elbow problems last year). While the power alleys do harm some hitters in the cell, Teahen can run so They'll still be doubles.

Mr. Downtown
11-06-2009, 11:18 PM
This is an awful trade and no serious person should be able to get it. This was Getz's ROOKIE SEASON. Not his third year...his ROOKIE SEASON. We are giving up so much upside potential for what? Everyone knows what Teahan is going to get you. Kenny blew this one. The metrics guys think they have this all figured out but Getz didn't make an error since June. And if you do the math and figure out how many stolen bases he would have had if he played a full season, you get pretty close to a number that very few in baseball do. Terrible trade and it will haunt us.

KRS1
11-06-2009, 11:28 PM
This is an awful trade and no serious person should be able to get it. This was Getz's ROOKIE SEASON. Not his third year...his ROOKIE SEASON. We are giving up so much upside potential for what? Everyone knows what Teahan is going to get you. Kenny blew this one. The metrics guys think they have this all figured out but Getz didn't make an error since June. And if you do the math and figure out how many stolen bases he would have had if he played a full season, you get pretty close to a number that very few in baseball do. Terrible trade and it will haunt us.

I can assure you, I am a very serious person.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2008/1010/nhl_rd_toews_580.jpg

russ99
11-06-2009, 11:29 PM
This is an awful trade and no serious person should be able to get it. This was Getz's ROOKIE SEASON. Not his third year...his ROOKIE SEASON. We are giving up so much upside potential for what? Everyone knows what Teahan is going to get you. Kenny blew this one. The metrics guys think they have this all figured out but Getz didn't make an error since June. And if you do the math and figure out how many stolen bases he would have had if he played a full season, you get pretty close to a number that very few in baseball do. Terrible trade and it will haunt us.

May I rebut? Getz was a rookie at 26, which is old for an infielder. Every scouting report on the guy prior to this year listed his ceiling as a utility infielder. Lillibridge was ranked higher this spring on most accounts, and he had the same holes in his game last year with Atlanta as with the Sox this year.

Getz may end up the exception to both those strikes against his potential, but I'd think Kenny is gambling with the house that he'll only develop slightly more than the overall skills he's showing now. As for the steals, Jerry Owens had 32 steals for us in half a season with around the same average as Getz did this year but never developed into a leadoff hitter.

That said, Getz did have a good rookie season, and will probably have a decent MLB career with Kansas City. But in the big picture for the Sox, he'd have been a #9 hitter for a few years with steady but not spectacular numbers and probably passed up by Retherford within 2 years, which I think is a partial reason for the deal.

Mr. Downtown
11-06-2009, 11:47 PM
You're right. At the end of the season Getz did turn 26. So he's now a 26 year old. He wasn't during most of the season, but at the end of the season he was 26. Next season he'll be a 26 year old until late summer and then he'll be a 27 year old. How does any of that help your argument? It was his first full season in the majors. We know that he didn't have an error since June and we also know that he played with a sports hernia injury for a certain period of time prior to the end of the season. We also know that if he had stopped playing in mid-September his average would have been in the .270's instead of .261. OK you don't like the guy. That's cool. But if you want to do the math with his age, then do the same thing with his stats.

KRS1
11-06-2009, 11:56 PM
You're right. At the end of the season Getz did turn 26. So he's now a 26 year old. He wasn't during most of the season, but at the end of the season he was 26. Next season he'll be a 26 year old until late summer and then he'll be a 27 year old. How does any of that help your argument? It was his first full season in the majors. We know that he didn't have an error since June and we also know that he played with a sports hernia injury for a certain period of time prior to the end of the season. We also know that if he had stopped playing in mid-September his average would have been in the .270's instead of .261. OK you don't like the guy. That's cool. But if you want to do the math with his age, then do the same thing with his stats.

...???

JB98
11-07-2009, 12:06 AM
You're right. At the end of the season Getz did turn 26. So he's now a 26 year old. He wasn't during most of the season, but at the end of the season he was 26. Next season he'll be a 26 year old until late summer and then he'll be a 27 year old. How does any of that help your argument? It was his first full season in the majors. We know that he didn't have an error since June and we also know that he played with a sports hernia injury for a certain period of time prior to the end of the season. We also know that if he had stopped playing in mid-September his average would have been in the .270's instead of .261. OK you don't like the guy. That's cool. But if you want to do the math with his age, then do the same thing with his stats.

I really don't think Getz is going to haunt us though. He's an OK player. But there are plenty of guys in the league like Chris Getz. There's nothing about his game that is really special.

I'm not sold on Teahan as an everyday player at all. That acquisition does not excite me one bit. But it isn't like we just traded away a future All-Star or something.

Mr. Downtown
11-07-2009, 12:17 AM
???? My point was that if you're going to call him a 26 year old rookie - which he was at the end of the season - then to be fair you need to also point out what he was statistically along the way. I get the fact that people think that he wasn't our answer for 2nd base. I disagree, but I get that. But I also think that if one's honest they'll tell the whole story. We've lost what I view as potentially a very good player and we're not getting much in return.

Sam Spade
11-07-2009, 12:21 AM
I really don't think Getz is going to haunt us though. He's an OK player. But there are plenty of guys in the league like Chris Getz. There's nothing about his game that is really special.

I'm not sold on Teahan as an everyday player at all. That acquisition does not excite me one bit. But it isn't like we just traded away a future All-Star or something.
I can't believe people are up in arms about this trade. Teahen is okay. Getz is okay. Fields kind of sucks at the plate, and gets a bad rap for his defense because it was poor three years ago. I'm happy he got his trade. He seemed like a good guy.

I think Gordon moving to 2b was important. I also think teahen might end up in the outfield. I wish most people would just settle down and wait to see what else kenny does. Its like three days into the offseason.

Mr. Downtown
11-07-2009, 12:32 AM
Even though Getz is leaving Chicago and going to KC, this might be the best move for him from a professional baseball standpoint. Our loss, KC's gain.

soltrain21
11-07-2009, 01:02 AM
Even though Getz is leaving Chicago and going to KC, this might be the best move for him from a professional baseball standpoint. Our loss, KC's gain.

I think you are just angry that your authentic Chris Getz jersey is now going to waste. It was a trade for Mark Teahen and Chris Getz. It's really not that big of a deal.

BleacherBandit
11-07-2009, 01:15 AM
The only reason I dislike this trade is because it siphons off even more speed from our team. Let's be honest. Mark Teahen doesn't run like Jermaine Dye or Jim Thome, but he isn't adding any speed to the team. Kenny needs to go out and get some one who can steal a base. You can't rid the roster of the slow-guys (Thome and Dye) and then think your team is faster.

JB98
11-07-2009, 01:19 AM
I can't believe people are up in arms about this trade. Teahen is okay. Getz is okay. Fields kind of sucks at the plate, and gets a bad rap for his defense because it was poor three years ago. I'm happy he got his trade. He seemed like a good guy.

I think Gordon moving to 2b was important. I also think teahen might end up in the outfield. I wish most people would just settle down and wait to see what else kenny does. Its like three days into the offseason.

I'm not up in arms at all. I don't think the Sox got any better by making this trade. I don't think they got worse either.

Sam Spade
11-07-2009, 01:35 AM
I'm not up in arms at all. I don't think the Sox got any better by making this trade. I don't think they got worse either.
No, you aren't. You seemed reasonable so I quoted you.

oeo
11-07-2009, 02:10 AM
The only reason I dislike this trade is because it siphons off even more speed from our team. Let's be honest. Mark Teahen doesn't run like Jermaine Dye or Jim Thome, but he isn't adding any speed to the team. Kenny needs to go out and get some one who can steal a base. You can't rid the roster of the slow-guys (Thome and Dye) and then think your team is faster.

Sure you can because speed isn't all about stolen bases. We were middle of the pack in stolen bases in 2009 and didn't do much for us. It shows up more often in other things on the basepaths, like going first to third, actually being in scoring position when you're at second, beating out double plays, stretching singles into doubles, eliminating the patented Jim Thome 'long single', etc. These are simple things our old vets have not been able to do the past few years, and a big reason why there times where we would get 3, sometimes 4 hits in an inning and not even score a damn run.

soxfandy
11-07-2009, 05:24 AM
So do I, just like I hoped I was wrong on Josh Fields, Jerry Owens, Dewayne Wise, and Jeremy Reed just to mention a few.

There is only one thing you are forgetting to mention. This is Gordon Beckham, not any of the stated guys above. He moved to a pretty difficult position at 3rd and had to learn it at the major league level. I think he adapted pretty well to that. Now he will be moving to 2b which is alot easier than 3b. I think he will do just fine at 2b. Also with the offensive skills he has it makes him an above average 2b already.

soxfandy
11-07-2009, 05:30 AM
This is an awful trade and no serious person should be able to get it. This was Getz's ROOKIE SEASON. Not his third year...his ROOKIE SEASON. We are giving up so much upside potential for what? Everyone knows what Teahan is going to get you. Kenny blew this one. The metrics guys think they have this all figured out but Getz didn't make an error since June. And if you do the math and figure out how many stolen bases he would have had if he played a full season, you get pretty close to a number that very few in baseball do. Terrible trade and it will haunt us.

Wow...you have alot of love for chris getz. He was a decent player. I know this was his rookie season and that he is young, but I just don't see the potential you are talking about. The year he had this year will be right along his career trend. I could see him maybe getting his average up around .270/.275, but that is it. I'll go on record and say that Chris Getz will never be an all-star.

Lillian
11-07-2009, 06:22 AM
I didn't read all of the posts in this thread, but has anyone revisited the rumored trade of Alexei to Boston for Ellsbury? That would solve the leadoff problem. Beckham moves to SS, and either Nix or Retherford takes over at 2Nd.

Maybe that deal could get done if K.W. included another player. The original rumor included Jenks and Bard as well, but that seemed pretty fanciful.

HangWiffum
11-07-2009, 06:37 AM
Why the heck would Boston do that?

dickallen15
11-07-2009, 07:05 AM
I didn't read all of the posts in this thread, but has anyone revisited the rumored trade of Alexei to Boston for Ellsbury? That would solve the leadoff problem. Beckham moves to SS, and either Nix or Retherford takes over at 2Nd.

Maybe that deal could get done if K.W. included another player. The original rumor included Jenks and Bard as well, but that seemed pretty fanciful.

Teahen was talking about how its nice to know he's going to be at 3B and only has to worry about one position. Beckham is now moving to 2B. While initially I thought this latest trade could open up a lot of possibilities because they could just move these guys around, I really don't think they want to yank them from where they are. Barring injury, I would put it at 99% Teahen is at 3B, Ramirez at SS and Beckham at 2B most of the time in 2010.

Lillian
11-07-2009, 07:11 AM
Why the heck would Boston do that?

I share your skepticism over any possibility that Boston would actually make a trade involving Ramirez for Ellsbury, but that was the rumor. Of course if they can resign Alex Gonzalez, they wouldn't need a SS.

One of the most disappointing things about Alexei, which few mention, is how few doubles and triples he hits. For a guy with his speed, it's pretty pathetic that he only had a total of just 15 last year. That's really bad for a full season's production.

dickallen15
11-07-2009, 07:12 AM
I share your skepticism over any possibility that Boston would actually make a trade involving Ramirez for Ellsbury, but that was the rumor.

One of the most disappointing things about Alexei, which few mention, is how few doubles and triples he hits. For a guy with his speed, it's pretty pathetic that he only had a total of just 15 last year. That's really bad for a full season's production.


I was going to mention this a while ago. Its almost incredible the lack of doubles he hit.

HarryChappas
11-07-2009, 09:47 AM
Teahen was talking about how its nice to know he's going to be at 3B and only has to worry about one position. Beckham is now moving to 2B. While initially I thought this latest trade could open up a lot of possibilities because they could just move these guys around, I really don't think they want to yank them from where they are. Barring injury, I would put it at 99% Teahen is at 3B, Ramirez at SS and Beckham at 2B most of the time in 2010.


If he is our starting 3rd baseman we are in trouble. Who will have a worst thirdbaseman in the AL? What is Teahan strong suit? Can he hit? Average at best. Speed? Average. Power? No. Glove? Average. At least even Uribe had a strong suit. We need someone who can FIELD and Hit or do one of the two really well.

thedudeabides
11-07-2009, 10:14 AM
I can't believe people are up in arms about this trade. Teahen is okay. Getz is okay. Fields kind of sucks at the plate, and gets a bad rap for his defense because it was poor three years ago. I'm happy he got his trade. He seemed like a good guy.

I think Gordon moving to 2b was important. I also think teahen might end up in the outfield. I wish most people would just settle down and wait to see what else kenny does. Its like three days into the offseason.

It never seems to amaze me at the overreaction around here.What is with everyone freaking out over the infield defense? Teahen is not a bad third basemen, he's not Joe Crede(and his bat is remarkably similar to Joe form the left side), but he's head and shoulders above Fields. Outside of his rookie year he has been league average and improving until it was time for Gordon to take over at third. Some in KC thought Teahen was the better defensive third basemen, but he was the better athlete and they thought he could change positions easier. I'm pretty sure Buddy Bell is well aware of his skill set.

And Beckham was being groomed to be a 2b all along until the Sox were desperate for a 3b. If the plan was for him to move to second, than Getz was gone. No need for him, he can't be a utility infielder as he can't play any other positions. I'm pretty sure Gordon will be an upgrade defensively, and I am not one bit scared of him learning a new position, one that he has already played more than when he was forced to move to third. This is the position that best fits his skill set. He's head strong and determined, I'm not concerned about him at all. I would be concerned about Alexei's head if he were to be moved again.

HarryChappas
11-07-2009, 10:40 AM
Why do we settle for average?

Frater Perdurabo
11-07-2009, 10:55 AM
Why do we settle for average?


Is our starting rotation average?

HarryChappas
11-07-2009, 10:58 AM
Is our starting rotation average?

Still need "D" and some pop in the cell. We got spoiled when we had Crede/Uribe.

Frater Perdurabo
11-07-2009, 11:28 AM
Still need "D" and some pop in the cell. We got spoiled when we had Crede/Uribe.

With our rotation, I would prefer to focus on improving the overall team defense, and try to win a lot of one-run, low scoring games. I think Danks is ready to play the field at a high level, but his bat remains a question.

munchman33
11-07-2009, 11:59 AM
Is our starting rotation average?

We have the best starting rotation in baseball.

soltrain21
11-07-2009, 12:03 PM
Why do we settle for average?

Did you see the teams in the playoffs this year? Many "average" players abound.

BleacherBandit
11-07-2009, 12:36 PM
This may make 3B and 2B more defensively solid but I still dislike Alexei in terms of his defense. I don't even like him that much in terms of offense. I wouldn't mind seeing him gone if we could get decent return, actually.

HarryChappas
11-07-2009, 01:12 PM
Did you see the teams in the playoffs this year? Many "average" players abound.

Where on the Phils or Yanks?

soltrain21
11-07-2009, 01:15 PM
Where on the Phils or Yanks?

Ben Francisco, Nick Swisher, Pedro Feliz, Melky Cabrera

TheVulture
11-07-2009, 01:57 PM
Why do we settle for average?

KW wanted to pull the trigger on the Pujols deal, but the Cards demanded he throw in Jayson Nix. So he went with plan B.

HarryChappas
11-07-2009, 03:38 PM
KW wanted to pull the trigger on the Pujols deal, but the Cards demanded he throw in Jayson Nix. So he went with plan B.

How about a guy who is above average at something? We gave up a guy with speed and a guy with power for a guy not good at anything.

voodoochile
11-07-2009, 03:42 PM
How about a guy who is above average at something? We gave up a guy with speed and a guy with power for a guy not good at anything.

No, we gave up a guy with speed and a busted headcase prospect who might hit for power someday if he can ever develop some consistency for a player with a better bat than the speed guy who can play multiple positions and still might bust out offensively especially in a hitter's paradise like UCSF.

Fields was a throw in. He has NO future with the Sox and that's a really good thing.

doublem23
11-07-2009, 03:52 PM
How about a guy who is above average at something? We gave up a guy with speed and a guy with power for a guy not good at anything.

Will everyone please understand that Josh Fields sucks? And as much as I like Getz, the Sox seem pretty hellbent on sending Bacon back to the middle infield.

Zisk77
11-07-2009, 05:21 PM
How about a guy who is above average at something? We gave up a guy with speed and a guy with power for a guy not good at anything.

except that the guy we got is better than both the guy with speed and the guy with power we gave up.

voodoochile
11-07-2009, 11:22 PM
except that the guy we got is better than both the guy with speed and the guy with power we gave up.This is a HUGE point. Tehen is at least a marginal improvement over either Fields of Getz. Adding them together doesn't mean it's a bad trade because the Sox won't get better by playing both Getz and Fields. In fact one could argue they'd get much worse.

Marginal improvement is always the name of the game. Teahen gives the Sox that and didn't cost them much at all.

HarryChappas
11-08-2009, 12:01 AM
This is a HUGE point. Tehen is at least a marginal improvement over either Fields of Getz. Adding them together doesn't mean it's a bad trade because the Sox won't get better by playing both Getz and Fields. In fact one could argue they'd get much worse.

Marginal improvement is always the name of the game. Teahen gives the Sox that and didn't cost them much at all.

Teahen is"blah", I hope we get power at DH or Outfield! Lets not kid ourselves , you need the long ball and pitching to win at the cell. We have the pitching and I hope Kenny gets a slugger.

voodoochile
11-08-2009, 12:23 AM
Teahen is"blah", I hope we get power at DH or Outfield! Lets not kid ourselves , you need the long ball and pitching to win at the cell. We have the pitching and I hope Kenny gets a slugger.

Sure but if/when he gets that slugger the Sox are still better with Teahen at third and Beckham at 2B than Beckham at 3B and Getz at 2B.

Or even Hudson (for example) at 2b, Beckham at 3B and Teahen in RF and add a big bat for DH.

Thatguyoverthere
11-08-2009, 01:12 AM
Why do we settle for average?Maybe because you can't have a star player at every position? I don't get some of the over-reactions on this trade. At worst, we didn't get any better, but we didn't get any worse. Fields is terrible, and we gave up our #9 hitter for a guy who could possibly give us decent production. It's a trade of two pretty average players, and there's absolutely no way Chris Getz is going to haunt us. Obviously I'm going to be pissed if this is our only move, but the World Series just ended.

Sure but if/when he gets that slugger the Sox are still better with Teahen at third and Beckham at 2B than Beckham at 3B and Getz at 2B. What he said.

munchman33
11-08-2009, 01:32 AM
Sure but if/when he gets that slugger the Sox are still better with Teahen at third and Beckham at 2B than Beckham at 3B and Getz at 2B.


:teach:

Tragg
11-08-2009, 09:56 AM
This is a HUGE point. Tehen is at least a marginal improvement over either Fields of Getz. . But he isn't replacing Getz or Fields. Is he an improvement over Beckham defensively? And is Beckham a defensive improvement over Getz?
Has Williams improved the infield defense? No he hasn't.

munchman33
11-08-2009, 10:26 AM
But he isn't replacing Getz or Fields. Is he an improvement over Beckham defensively? And is Beckham a defensive improvement over Getz?
Has Williams improved the infield defense? No he hasn't.

No, yes, and maybe.

voodoochile
11-08-2009, 11:00 AM
But he isn't replacing Getz or Fields. Is he an improvement over Beckham defensively? And is Beckham a defensive improvement over Getz?
Has Williams improved the infield defense? No he hasn't.

I don't think our IF defense at the end of the year was as bad as people want to make it out to be. It may or may not be better next season, but the offense has definitely been upgraded.

I think Ramirez is going to be a stud at SS. I have no idea how Beckham will do at 2B, but feel good about his ability to handle the job.

If the IF defense is as good as it was the second half of the season and in particular the last 1.5 months, the Sox are fine. Even if it takes a small step back from that level it won't be bad.

Daver
11-08-2009, 11:09 AM
I don't think our IF defense at the end of the year was as bad as people want to make it out to be. It may or may not be better next season, but the offense has definitely been upgraded.


Baseball is not now, nor has ever been an offensive sport, and the White Sox downgraded defensively.

Tragg
11-08-2009, 11:11 AM
If the IF defense is as good as it was the second half of the season and in particular the last 1.5 months, the Sox are fine. Even if it takes a small step back from that level it won't be bad.
Okay, fair enough.
So, if the defense is slightly worse or the same....how does this trade help?
T's nothing much with the bat either.

voodoochile
11-08-2009, 11:20 AM
Okay, fair enough.
So, if the defense is slightly worse or the same....how does this trade help?
T's nothing much with the bat either.

If Teahen merely matches his numbers from last season he will post an OPS 60 points higher than Getz and he can still steal some bases too as he was 8/1 last year and is 42/11 for his career.

I also expect his numbers to improve moving from Kauffman to the Cell.

It wouldn't be surprising to see Teahen post an OPS closer to .800 next season, IMO. His slg should go up.

Also there is no guarantee that this is the final move. Should KW land a 2B or 3B then Teahen can move to RF.

Like I said, this is at least a marginal upgrade, IMO and that's the idea. Get better piece by piece. If you can do that, you'll be fine.

PushinWeight
11-08-2009, 04:15 PM
Over 45 pages now because of this trade. Wow. My opinion is that I like the White Sox chances next year both before and after this trade was made. I believe that the Sox are crowned AL Central champs regardless of this trade being made or not (and hopefully more than that).

munchman33
11-08-2009, 06:16 PM
Baseball is not now, nor has ever been an offensive sport, and the White Sox downgraded defensively.

Daver that's still opinion, as our 2B situation is an unknown. And it's really only an unknown if you're willing to ignore all the scouts that projected this kid as a future second basemen. Which only you seem to be willing to do. Granted, you've watched more scouting film of him in college, but so have all the scouts that projected Gordon going into the draft.

Daver
11-08-2009, 06:31 PM
Daver that's still opinion, as our 2B situation is an unknown. And it's really only an unknown if you're willing to ignore all the scouts that projected this kid as a future second basemen. Which only you seem to be willing to do. Granted, you've watched more scouting film of him in college, but so have all the scouts that projected Gordon going into the draft.

I don't know what scouts you have talked to that projected him to play second, I know the Twins would have drafted him to play third, but none I have talked to saw him as a SS.

That being said, even if Gordon can equal Getz at second, it is still a defensive downgrade, as Teahen is not as good as Gordon was at third.

KMcMahon817
11-08-2009, 07:14 PM
I am sure they have a pretty good idea of who is the better third baseman if they made this deal. I am not saying Teahen is a great fielder, and Becks filled in admirably, but I am sure the mixture of Kenny, Buddy, and Ozzie have some idea of what they're doing.

Daver
11-08-2009, 07:17 PM
I am going to take a wild stab in the dark and say that the mixture of Kenny, Buddy and Ozzie have a better idea of who is a better fielder at third base than you do...

I'm sure they do, they chose Josh Fields to start at third last season...

KMcMahon817
11-08-2009, 07:19 PM
I'm sure they do, they chose Josh Fields to start at third last season...


Very true.:cool:

Noneck
11-08-2009, 07:26 PM
I'm sure they do, they chose Josh Fields to start at third last season...

But they had Betiment in the wings.

DonnieDarko
11-08-2009, 07:56 PM
But they had Betiment in the wings.

Why you gotta bring up such nightmares, dude? WHY? I had almost forgotten about him!

Now I need to go back to my shrink...>_<