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Rockabilly
10-26-2009, 01:58 PM
I was listening to sports talk radio here in San Fran. The host of the show thinks that most fans are hypocrities because a lot of fans bashed Barry Bonds and the Giants fans for cheering but these same fans cheer for other cheaters who play on their fav team.

So anyone here think this guy is right.

Would any of you who bashed Bonds in the past, would cheer for a cheater if he helped us win a championship.

Domeshot17
10-26-2009, 02:09 PM
As a fan, personally I don't care anymore. I couldn't even watch most baseball for a while because of the incredible amount of cheating. I hated Barry Bonds for a lot of reasons, steroids were just one. Now it doesn't matter. Arod, Bonds, Mcgwire, Manny, they are all going to get into the hall sooner or later. I am sure the White Sox had numerous roiders we cheered for. And honestly, the more you think about it, is taking steroids to recover from an injury THAT much different than the players snorting Adderall, doing speed, drinking the amphetamine laced coffee to recover from hangovers?

The sooner we admit Baseball was just WWE wrestling for a long time, the sooner we can try and start to like the game again.

downstairs
10-26-2009, 02:10 PM
He may be a jerk, but he's OUR jerk. He may be a cheater, but he's OUR cheater.

This has been going on as long as sports has had fans, and always will.

asindc
10-26-2009, 02:12 PM
Not only are many baseball fans hypocrites for the reason you mentioned, they are also hypocritical about known cheaters that are currently in the Hall of Fame (Gaylord Perry) and about cheering for football players who use PEDs.

TDog
10-26-2009, 02:19 PM
During the postseason, there has been a commercial running with a line about steroids not making great athletes but destroying them. Then moments later the announcers talk about what a great player and team leader the Yankees have in Alex Rodriguez.

dickallen15
10-26-2009, 02:19 PM
I don't see any Tyler Flowers haters on these boards, he was suspended for a positive test, so I think the description is accurate. While some White Sox would get slammed on this and other boards for a positive test, there are a few where there would be nothing but posts of excuses and support.

areilly
10-26-2009, 02:37 PM
Big time. At least football fans have the decency to embrace their leaguewide dirtiness.

TDog
10-26-2009, 02:53 PM
Big time. At least football fans have the decency to embrace their leaguewide dirtiness.

But many of them complain that they have no respect for baseball because it is so dirty.

Lip Man 1
10-26-2009, 03:15 PM
Downstairs:

Very well said.

Lip

Parrothead
10-26-2009, 03:48 PM
I don't see any Tyler Flowers haters on these boards, he was suspended for a positive test, so I think the description is accurate. While some White Sox would get slammed on this and other boards for a positive test, there are a few where there would be nothing but posts of excuses and support.

Tyler was not with the Sox at that time, i believe. So technically he has been "clean" with the Sox.

Daver
10-26-2009, 04:33 PM
Are baseball fans hypocrities

Yes.

voodoochile
10-26-2009, 04:58 PM
I prefer a clean game, so I wouldn't embrace a player who I knew was using steroids and wouldn't want to see the team pursue known steroid users. I wouldn't be happy to find out that a player on a championship team I rooted for was a cheater, but there wouldn't be anything I could do about it either.

I definitely wouldn't turn a blind eye to brazen cheating like flubbie fans did with ShamME* all those years and I definitely wouldn't cheer for a player like that, though I still would attend games and root for the team, just hope they were gone as soon as possible.

Like it or not, it's probably already happened anyway. I just wish it wouldn't happen in the future, though I know that's probably a lost cause too.

There are also lines I won't cross, for example if MLB reinstated Pete Rose and the Sox hired him to manage the team I would boo his sorry ass mercilessly and I generally don't boo.

DSpivack
10-26-2009, 05:32 PM
During the postseason, there has been a commercial running with a line about steroids not making great athletes but destroying them. Then moments later the announcers talk about what a great player and team leader the Yankees have in Alex Rodriguez.

:rolling:

Speaking of hypocrisy, many reject the NBA due to it's "image" and have a problem with the "thugs" in the league and claim there's too many criminals, yet are NFL fans.

rdwj
10-26-2009, 07:01 PM
I don't think so. I think most baseball fans think less of ANY player that has a positive test. Roids are one of the reasons I hate Bonds, but certainly not the ONLY reason I hate him.

Zisk77
10-26-2009, 07:33 PM
I don't see any Tyler Flowers haters on these boards, he was suspended for a positive test, so I think the description is accurate. While some White Sox would get slammed on this and other boards for a positive test, there are a few where there would be nothing but posts of excuses and support.

Good point on Tyler. I view it like this. I don't exonerate Tyler for doing PED's while in Atlanta's system. He got caught, paid the price and is now hopefully clean. He is young and stupid and deserves a second chance. If he does it again I wouldn't condone it despite being a sox fan.

now if i was a Yankees fan I probably could forgive Arod but would view anything he did as at least somewhat tainted and could never view him in the way I might view Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Munson, Guidry, Jeter, Rivera.

Realize too, Bonds was not only a cheater but a real grade a *******!

DSpivack
10-26-2009, 08:28 PM
Good point on Tyler. I view it like this. I don't exonerate Tyler for doing PED's while in Atlanta's system. He got caught, paid the price and is now hopefully clean. He is young and stupid and deserves a second chance. If he does it again I wouldn't condone it despite being a sox fan.

now if i was a Yankees fan I probably could forgive Arod but would view anything he did as at least somewhat tainted and could never view him in the way I might view Ruth, Gehrig, Dimaggio, Munson, Guidry, Jeter, Rivera.

Realize too, Bonds was not only a cheater but a real grade a *******!

Don't forget Roger Clemens helped them to win 2 World Series, as well.

Viva Medias B's
10-26-2009, 09:26 PM
I root against cheaters such as Bonds without regard of the team they play for.

Rockabilly
10-26-2009, 09:32 PM
I root against cheaters such as Bonds without regard of the team they play for.

So if a cheater hit a game winning home run for the Sox in the world series, you wouldn't stand up and cheer

Viva Medias B's
10-26-2009, 09:42 PM
So if a cheater hit a game winning home run for the Sox in the world series, you wouldn't stand up and cheer

We have a reputation of getting rid of cheaters or avoiding them like the plague.

areilly
10-26-2009, 10:55 PM
We have a reputation of getting rid of cheaters or avoiding them like the plague.

Keep in mind that an outed cheater scored one of the most important (and most dramatic) runs in franchise history. So while the intention to purge the system, so to speak, is well-known, the club's execution isn't flawless.

Nellie_Fox
10-27-2009, 12:24 AM
Not only are many baseball fans hypocrites for the reason you mentioned, they are also hypocritical about known cheaters that are currently in the Hall of Fame (Gaylord Perry) and about cheering for football players who use PEDs.I have always been outspoken about Perry being in the HOF. He was a cheater, he wrote a book in which he admitted to being a cheater. He should not be in the Hall.

I don't see any Tyler Flowers haters on these boards, he was suspended for a positive test, so I think the description is accurate. While some White Sox would get slammed on this and other boards for a positive test, there are a few where there would be nothing but posts of excuses and support.I didn't know/remember about Flowers. I will not be a fan.

Tyler was not with the Sox at that time, i believe. So technically he has been "clean" with the Sox.As far as anyone knows, ARod has "technically been clean" with the Yankees.

doublem23
10-27-2009, 05:01 AM
:rolling:

Speaking of hypocrisy, many reject the NBA due to it's "image" and have a problem with the "thugs" in the league and claim there's too many criminals, yet are NFL fans.

That is definitely the one that blows my mind.

Viva Medias B's
10-27-2009, 07:45 AM
I guess they may beg the question as to whether or not we allow redemption for outed cheaters.

southside rocks
10-27-2009, 08:07 AM
He may be a jerk, but he's OUR jerk. He may be a cheater, but he's OUR cheater.

This has been going on as long as sports has had fans, and always will.

Not just sports fans -- that's human nature.

The investigations into Bernie Madoff's decades-long swindle have indicated that yes, some "investors" DID think that he couldn't be getting the results he reported to be getting by legitimate means; but since he was cheating for THEM, they kept quiet and cashed their checks from Madoff Investments.

Not very different if at all: he's a cheater, but he's cheating to make me money/get my team wins, so I am okay with it.

Says as much about the person who feels that way as it does about the cheater, IMO.

jabrch
10-27-2009, 10:16 AM
They aren't hypocrites. They are fans. For many people this isn't about logic. This isn't about right and wrong. This isn't about any ideals.

People want to make baseball (sports in general) into a lot more than they are.

voodoochile
10-27-2009, 10:19 AM
They aren't hypocrites. They are fans. For many people this isn't about logic. This isn't about right and wrong. This isn't about any ideals.

People want to make baseball (sports in general) into a lot more than they are.

No, just want clean games. Or as clean as they can be reasonably expected to be with that much money on the line.

Domeshot17
10-27-2009, 02:02 PM
No, just want clean games. Or as clean as they can be reasonably expected to be with that much money on the line.

Do you have the same feelings for Tyler Flowers that you do for Arod?

PatK
10-27-2009, 02:10 PM
I would say they are, since they adore the cheaters in the Hall, but loathe the present day cheaters.

Goose
10-27-2009, 02:12 PM
Keep in mind that an outed cheater scored one of the most important (and most dramatic) runs in franchise history. So while the intention to purge the system, so to speak, is well-known, the club's execution isn't flawless.

Why am I drawing a blank on this one? Who are you talking about?

areilly
10-27-2009, 02:17 PM
Why am I drawing a blank on this one? Who are you talking about?

Pablo Ozuna, scorer of this (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHA/CHA200510120.shtml) game-ending run and server of this (http://blog.pennlive.com/patriotnewssports/2009/06/philadelphia_phillies_minor_le.html) 50-game suspension.

jabrch
10-27-2009, 02:24 PM
No, just want clean games. Or as clean as they can be reasonably expected to be with that much money on the line.


I don't even believe that is the case. We really don't care as a population as a whole. We didn't care back in the day - and enough people had to know things were odd with baseball players shaped like Lou Ferrigno. The game never cared about Steve Howe's coke problems. It never cared about greenies. It never cared. For the large majority of fans, the game is all about what goes on between the white lines.

voodoochile
10-27-2009, 02:31 PM
Do you have the same feelings for Tyler Flowers that you do for Arod?

Well, it's news to me. I didn't know or forgot about Flowers' positive test. Maybe that's cognitive disonnance at work :dunno:

I'd prefer the Sox didn't have any cheaters on their team, but I suppose I'll have to settle for "as clean as the sport can currently ensure" and learn to live with the fact that steroids were a common ingredient in building better ball players over most of the last few decades.

I'm also more forgiving of the players who admitted their use - it's my nature to forgive people who are willing to admit they did something wrong and apologize so I'm not as upset with ARod as I am Bonds (for example).

I have to draw my line somewhere and I draw it at wanting a clean game and a clean team. I also trust the Sox are doing everything they can to ensure Flowers is staying clean now. I'll probably end up drawing a line in the sand here and saying no more cheating from this point forward because it's probably the best I can hope for.

voodoochile
10-27-2009, 02:32 PM
I don't even believe that is the case. We really don't care as a population as a whole. We didn't care back in the day - and enough people had to know things were odd with baseball players shaped like Lou Ferrigno. The game never cared about Steve Howe's coke problems. It never cared about greenies. It never cared. For the large majority of fans, the game is all about what goes on between the white lines.

I wasn't trying to speak for the majority of fans only for myself.

Goose
10-27-2009, 02:34 PM
Pablo Ozuna, scorer of this (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CHA/CHA200510120.shtml) game-ending run and server of this (http://blog.pennlive.com/patriotnewssports/2009/06/philadelphia_phillies_minor_le.html) 50-game suspension.

Thanks! I didn't remember the suspension...

Domeshot17
10-27-2009, 06:14 PM
Well, it's news to me. I didn't know or forgot about Flowers' positive test. Maybe that's cognitive disonnance at work :dunno:

I'd prefer the Sox didn't have any cheaters on their team, but I suppose I'll have to settle for "as clean as the sport can currently ensure" and learn to live with the fact that steroids were a common ingredient in building better ball players over most of the last few decades.

I'm also more forgiving of the players who admitted their use - it's my nature to forgive people who are willing to admit they did something wrong and apologize so I'm not as upset with ARod as I am Bonds (for example).

I have to draw my line somewhere and I draw it at wanting a clean game and a clean team. I also trust the Sox are doing everything they can to ensure Flowers is staying clean now. I'll probably end up drawing a line in the sand here and saying no more cheating from this point forward because it's probably the best I can hope for.

I wasn't trying to call you out there, I actually feel the same thing. Arod admitted he used. If he used for 2 years or 10 doesn't matter, because admitting use could keep him out of the hall and he did it anyway. Flowers got busted but since has seemed to be on the clean path. To me, if we can keep a team with 23-24 guys staying clean, thats much better than being in oakland where half the team or more was/is using.

DSpivack
10-27-2009, 07:28 PM
I wasn't trying to call you out there, I actually feel the same thing. Arod admitted he used. If he used for 2 years or 10 doesn't matter, because admitting use could keep him out of the hall and he did it anyway. Flowers got busted but since has seemed to be on the clean path. To me, if we can keep a team with 23-24 guys staying clean, thats much better than being in oakland where half the team or more was/is using.

This is all guilt by association, but those Oakland teams were managed by Tony LaRussa. He also managed Mark McGwire again in St. Louis. Were there ever any implications during his time with the Sox? I was too young to remember those teams, and never really heard anything about it. Just curious.

Brian26
10-27-2009, 07:38 PM
Were there ever any implications during his time with the Sox? I was too young to remember those teams, and never really heard anything about it. Just curious.

Absolutely not. His time with the Sox pre-dated, by quite a bit, the steroid era.

DSpivack
10-27-2009, 07:51 PM
Absolutely not. His time with the Sox pre-dated, by quite a bit, the steroid era.

So when did such an era begin? With the Bash Brothers in Oakland a few years later?

soltrain21
10-27-2009, 08:11 PM
Absolutely not. His time with the Sox pre-dated, by quite a bit, the steroid era.

So when did such an era begin? With the Bash Brothers in Oakland a few years later?

How can you take a guess on when it started? Nobody really has any idea.

DSpivack
10-27-2009, 08:34 PM
How can you take a guess on when it started? Nobody really has any idea.

I think you almost answered your own question. It's nothing but an uneducated guess.

Brian26
10-27-2009, 09:30 PM
So when did such an era begin? With the Bash Brothers in Oakland a few years later?

I'd say it started to creep into baseball in the late 80's, years after the NFL.

How can you take a guess on when it started? Nobody really has any idea.

Designer steroids became more widely available in the late 80s/early 90s. What Alzado was using in the 70s, god only knows. It was probably meant for horses.

I think you almost answered your own question. It's nothing but an uneducated guess.

I'd say it's an educated guess based on:

a.) Observation of body types. I can look at the '83 Sox and tell you that the only guy that probably used the weight room all season was Fisk, and there's no reason to think he was using drugs.

b.) Look at the offensive numbers. Kittle's 35 HRs were monumental. Baines had 20 HRs and that was considered a very good season. Same goes for the rest of the league. Numbers then were still consistent with numbers thru the late 60s and 70s.

voodoochile
10-27-2009, 11:19 PM
I wasn't trying to call you out there, I actually feel the same thing. Arod admitted he used. If he used for 2 years or 10 doesn't matter, because admitting use could keep him out of the hall and he did it anyway. Flowers got busted but since has seemed to be on the clean path. To me, if we can keep a team with 23-24 guys staying clean, thats much better than being in oakland where half the team or more was/is using.

No worries. Unfortunately with the amount of players who have been busted and the unbusted masses that lay hidden baseball fans who want a clean game are forced to make concessions. It's not as clear cut as "he used, he's dead to me" because you might as well stop watching the game if you feel that way. It's definitely turning into a shades of gray issue unfortunately.

I still disagree with the people who liken the steroid scandal to stimulants and other "PEDs" of years gone by. None of the previous attempts to cheat led to such a dramatic change in hallowed records in such a brief period of time and even with the tighter ball, smaller stadiums and breakaway bats, league wide offensive numbers are rapidly returning to something similar to the numbers everyone over 30 grew up with.

You definitely made me think about my position and try to figure out how I was going to deal with these issues because like I said earlier, it's not cut and dried anymore. I'm also sure the players are merely moving on to HGH and other newer better crafted designer drugs so assuming players are clean now is simply a pipe dream, but like the NFL and the NBA they've gotten better at hiding their cheating. I'm not living some Utopian ideal and assuming it's all clean now, but at least we aren't tearing down the records at an every increasing rate so I guess I can learn to live with the blind eye approach that is going to be the rule of the land for the foreseeable future.

WSox597
10-28-2009, 07:05 AM
:rolling:

Speaking of hypocrisy, many reject the NBA due to it's "image" and have a problem with the "thugs" in the league and claim there's too many criminals, yet are NFL fans.


This is true, both leagues could have whole episodes of "Gangland" dedicated to them.

I generally ignore both leagues these last few years.

Trav
10-28-2009, 08:16 AM
Not only are most baseball fans hypocrites, the majority of them are dumb as a box of rocks and have the attention span of a gnat.

DSpivack
10-28-2009, 11:53 AM
This is true, both leagues could have whole episodes of "Gangland" dedicated to them.

I generally ignore both leagues these last few years.

No, it's really not, it's a lot more perception than reality.