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tm1119
10-14-2009, 02:41 PM
Long time, and highly regarded Texas hitting coach turned down a 1 year contract today to become a free agent.
With all of the fire Walker threads I thought this would be an interesting thread to make. Even though realistically there is probably no chance of him actually coming here.

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/mlb/news/story?id=4558743

oeo
10-14-2009, 02:43 PM
**** Figgins and whoever else everyone here wants, do whatever it takes to hire Jaramillo. Guaranteed that our offense improves just by bringing him in.

eriqjaffe
10-14-2009, 03:04 PM
Didn't the Sox just extend Walker through 2011?

CHISOXFAN13
10-14-2009, 03:07 PM
He's far more likely to end up on the other side of the town.

guillensdisciple
10-14-2009, 03:08 PM
This is going to be a very angry thread.

soxinem1
10-14-2009, 03:09 PM
Maybe we should bring Walt Hriniak out of retirement!!!

oeo
10-14-2009, 03:10 PM
Didn't the Sox just extend Walker through 2011?

Has there been an announcement that the coaches were all actually re-signed? The news was that they would be extended and that they were in discussions. I don't think any of them have actually officially signed extensions yet.

captain54
10-14-2009, 03:14 PM
Okay, hold on gang....

we've been told time and time again on this board that the hitting coach can only do so much, that ultimately it's up to the players to either make or break their performance..

so please, don't buy into the hype that a highly regarded coach with a track record is gonna make a difference in the offensive approach of a club...OKay???

Lip Man 1
10-14-2009, 03:25 PM
OEO:

It hasn't been officially announced yet but from what I've been told, all coaches will return for next season. Take it for what that's worth.

Lip

TDog
10-14-2009, 03:53 PM
**** Figgins and whoever else everyone here wants, do whatever it takes to hire Jaramillo. Guaranteed that our offense improves just by bringing him in.

And he'll be less productive than Figgins.

If Walker had produced the numbers Jaramillo produced with Texas this season, posters would be demanding he be fired. (Even the White Sox as a team had a better on-base percentage than the Rangers, although I believe on-base percentage is an overrated statistic.) Nolan Ryan doesn't want to give Jaramillo a multi-year contract (at least, that's the story), and Nolan Ryan is a baseball man who knows a lot more about Jaramillo than the anyone posting here.

If Jaramillo came to the White Sox, though, it would take a couple of seasons for people to start demanding he be fired, though, due to his legend.

Craig Grebeck
10-14-2009, 03:56 PM
And he'll be less productive than Figgins.

If Walker had produced the numbers Jaramillo produced with Texas this season, posters would be demanding he be fired. (Even the White Sox as a team had a better on-base percentage than the Rangers, although I believe on-base percentage is an overrated statistic.) Nolan Ryan doesn't want to give Jaramillo a multi-year contract (at least, that's the story), and Nolan Ryan is a baseball man who knows a lot more about Jaramillo than the anyone posting here.

If Jaramillo came to the White Sox, though, it would take a couple of seasons for people to start demanding he be fired, though, due to his legend.
One season is not a significant sample size for evaluating Jaramillo's resumé.

dickallen15
10-14-2009, 04:00 PM
Okay, hold on gang....

we've been told time and time again on this board that the hitting coach can only do so much, that ultimately it's up to the players to either make or break their performance..

so please, don't buy into the hype that a highly regarded coach with a track record is gonna make a difference in the offensive approach of a club...OKay???

Did you read the article about Texas' offense in 2009? Reminds me of something.

dickallen15
10-14-2009, 04:03 PM
And he'll be less productive than Figgins.

If Walker had produced the numbers Jaramillo produced with Texas this season, posters would be demanding he be fired. (Even the White Sox as a team had a better on-base percentage than the Rangers, although I believe on-base percentage is an overrated statistic.) Nolan Ryan doesn't want to give Jaramillo a multi-year contract (at least, that's the story), and Nolan Ryan is a baseball man who knows a lot more about Jaramillo than the anyone posting here.

If Jaramillo came to the White Sox, though, it would take a couple of seasons for people to start demanding he be fired, though, due to his legend.

I agree with you 100% except that Nolan Ryan knows something we all don't, and that's why he's not signing him. Their team has some issues and is in the process of being sold. He may be the highest paid coach in baseball, and probably won't take a cut. If he really could make the Sox hit 30 points better and produce runs without hits, he'd well be worth $1 million a year. Its funny though that Texas seemed to have the same struggles as the complaint against Walker. Could only score via the longball, struck out a ton. Low OBP. I love the guarantees the Sox would be much better.

Craig Grebeck
10-14-2009, 04:04 PM
I agree with you 100% except that Nolan Ryan knows something we all don't, and that's why he's not signing him. Their team has some issues and is in the process of being sold. He may be the highest paid coach in baseball, and probably won't take a cut. If he really could make the Sox hit 30 points better and produce runs without hits, he'd well be worth $1 million a year. Its funny though that Texas seemed to have the same struggles as the complaint against Walker. Could only score via the longball, struck out a ton. Low OBP. I love the guarantees the Sox would be much better.
Perhaps a perusal of Texas' roster is in order.

FielderJones
10-14-2009, 04:22 PM
Perhaps a perusal of Texas' roster is in order.

It doesn't matter. WSI has told me that it's the hitting coach, not the players. A magical hitting coach can turn Dewayne Wise into Ichiro.

g0g0
10-14-2009, 04:35 PM
Sox need to get this guy- 'nough said.

oeo
10-14-2009, 04:35 PM
And he'll be less productive than Figgins.

If Walker had produced the numbers Jaramillo produced with Texas this season, posters would be demanding he be fired. (Even the White Sox as a team had a better on-base percentage than the Rangers, although I believe on-base percentage is an overrated statistic.) Nolan Ryan doesn't want to give Jaramillo a multi-year contract (at least, that's the story), and Nolan Ryan is a baseball man who knows a lot more about Jaramillo than the anyone posting here.

If Jaramillo came to the White Sox, though, it would take a couple of seasons for people to start demanding he be fired, though, due to his legend.

Jaramillo has a history of turning journeyman into very good hitters. Gary Matthews Jr., Marlon Byrd, Mark DeRosa, etc. He does it every single year. Maybe Texas just gets lucky...not.

Steve Stone said that players actually call the guy up after they leave Texas for advice on how to get out of a slump.

kobo
10-14-2009, 05:01 PM
Did you read the article about Texas' offense in 2009? Reminds me of something.
Yes, let's just forget about the 14 seasons prior to this one, they mean nothing.

Zisk77
10-14-2009, 05:11 PM
Jaramillo has a history of turning journeyman into very good hitters. Gary Matthews Jr., Marlon Byrd, Mark DeRosa, etc. He does it every single year. Maybe Texas just gets lucky...not.

Steve Stone said that players actually call the guy up after they leave Texas for advice on how to get out of a slump.

I think DeRosa would be the first to tell you that michael young is responsible for his hitting as it was made widely known that he patterned his hitting style after Young while he was in Texas.

So it was Rudy and not the roids that matthews tested positive for that made him a better hitter? Do you think it was Matthew inadequate defense or inadequate hitting that caused the Angels to sign Torii Hunter and relegate matthews to the bench? See numerous threads on Marlon Byrd.

I think Rudy Jaramillo is a good hitting coach, but do you think he really is going to make Konerko a better hitter and Thome and Dye When they were here? after all it was the midle of our order that killed us. Will his toe-tapping method work for all the Sox like it did for Sammy Sosa?

If we want to improve our hitting we need better baseball players and we need to stay healthy.

captain54
10-14-2009, 05:13 PM
Did you read the article about Texas' offense in 2009? Reminds me of something.

No, but I read about the Texas offense in 2008...#1 hitting team in the AL

And I also read the article in the Chicago Tribune this morning where credit is given his work with Sammy Sosa, Juan Gonzalez, Ivan Rodriguez, Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell, Mark Texeira, Josh Hamilton, Ian Kinsler, Michael Young and Alex Rodriguez. and also how Rangers players have won 16 Silver Slugger awards and 4 MVPs while he has been hitting coach

spawn
10-14-2009, 05:18 PM
No, but I read about the Texas offense in 2008...#1 hitting team in the AL

And I also read the article in the Chicago Tribune this morning where credit is given his work with Sammy Sosa, Juan Gonzalez, Ivan Rodriguez, Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell, Mark Texeira, Josh Hamilton, Ian Kinsler, Michael Young and Alex Rodriguez. and also how Rangers players have won 16 Silver Slugger awards and 4 MVPs while he has been hitting coach
I can think of something else to credit the bolded players' hitting success...

dickallen15
10-14-2009, 05:22 PM
No, but I read about the Texas offense in 2008...#1 hitting team in the AL

And I also read the article in the Chicago Tribune this morning where credit is given his work with Sammy Sosa, Juan Gonzalez, Ivan Rodriguez, Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell, Mark Texeira, Josh Hamilton, Ian Kinsler, Michael Young and Alex Rodriguez. and also how Rangers players have won 16 Silver Slugger awards and 4 MVPs while he has been hitting coach
So all these players would have hit about .250 if Walker was the hitting coach. How do you explain the drop in Texas' offense this year if all he does is makes guys better? Face it, if there was a rangersinteractive.com and you were a Rangers fan, you would be calling for this guy's head. He did get Andruw Jones to hit .214. Maybe the Sox need Atlanta's hitting coach.

oeo
10-14-2009, 05:24 PM
I think DeRosa would be the first to tell you that michael young is responsible for his hitting as it was made widely known that he patterned his hitting style after Young while he was in Texas.

Who has Young's hitting coach been his entire career?

So it was Rudy and not the roids that matthews tested positive for that made him a better hitter? Do you think it was Matthew inadequate defense or inadequate hitting that caused the Angels to sign Torii Hunter and relegate matthews to the bench? See numerous threads on Marlon Byrd.

Who is to say Matthews just started using PED's in Texas? A bad player means they don't use what the rest of the league is using? Using PED's doesn't magically make you a good hitter.

I think Rudy Jaramillo is a good hitting coach, but do you think he really is going to make Konerko a better hitter and Thome and Dye When they were here? after all it was the midle of our order that killed us. Will his toe-tapping method work for all the Sox like it did for Sammy Sosa?

I think they would be closer to consistency. Slumps which last a hell of a lot shorter than a couple of months.

If we want to improve our hitting we need better baseball players and we need to stay healthy.

We also need a better hitting coach. Sorry you disagree. I guess you've enjoyed the inconsistencies of Walker's entire tenure. The players have changed and it's the same old story. Is it really just the players?

dickallen15
10-14-2009, 05:46 PM
Who has Young's hitting coach been his entire career?



Who is to say Matthews just started using PED's in Texas? A bad player means they don't use what the rest of the league is using? Using PED's doesn't magically make you a good hitter.



I think they would be closer to consistency. Slumps which last a hell of a lot shorter than a couple of months.



We also need a better hitting coach. Sorry you disagree. I guess you've enjoyed the inconsistencies of Walker's entire tenure. The players have changed and it's the same old story. Is it really just the players?

Just think if the Sox had a good pitching coach, Buerhle would never fade after pitching a no hitter. Contrera would have been nails, and Linebrink wouldn't have fallen apart. If you don't think Texas Rangers players slump for long stretches, you are disillutional.

EndemicSox
10-14-2009, 06:00 PM
I'd take him over the Sox hitting coach, easily. And I'm of the opinion that coaches at the big league level, from manager to bullpen coach, are pretty much one step above figureheads regarding their impact on W-L record. The most important, by far, imo, is the pitching coach, and even he can do only so much.

At the little league level through college ball, coaches(good ones) are extremely important, but by the time a player has reached MLB there is only so much that he can learn/improve upon.

khan
10-14-2009, 06:18 PM
Two things:

1. Dickallen15's fervent ardor for Greg Walker and hatred for Don Cooper is a bit bizarre/over the top, unless Dickallen15 is a relative of Walker's.

2. I believe Jaramillo >>>>>>>> Walker. Does anyone [except for Dickallen15] disagree?

captain54
10-14-2009, 06:24 PM
Just think if the Sox had a good pitching coach, Buerhle would never fade after pitching a no hitter. Contrera would have been nails, and Linebrink wouldn't have fallen apart. If you don't think Texas Rangers players slump for long stretches, you are disillutional.

2009 White Sox, pitching ...ERA, 2nd in AL....BB allowed, 2nd in AL
2009 White Sox, offense ...BA, last in AL.....hits...last in AL

khan
10-14-2009, 06:24 PM
I can think of something else to credit the bolded players' hitting success...

Don't forget about Bagwell.

captain54
10-14-2009, 06:34 PM
A magical hitting coach can turn Dewayne Wise into Ichiro.

There are about a dozen stud ML hitters that have credited Jaramillo with their success, as mentioned in the Trib today.

As I recall, I think I remember reading a list of players who have credited Walker with their success as well....there was....hmmm, let's see.....ummm,..uhhhhh....maybe Konerko, and.....gosh....can't think of anyone else.

oeo
10-14-2009, 06:35 PM
FOGW are almost as bad as FOBA.

Zisk77
10-14-2009, 06:38 PM
Who has Young's hitting coach been his entire career?

Rudy Jaramillo, However, Young's technique, approach, & mechanics are quite different from What Rudy preaches. Watch a rangers game and ask yourself which one of these things is not like the other on how the line-up hits.


Who is to say Matthews just started using PED's in Texas? A bad player means they don't use what the rest of the league is using? Using PED's doesn't magically make you a good hitter.

Well it seems from his career path, that Matthews tried to succeed on his own abilities, but soon realized he was just a jorneymen and began to do like the Jones'. He had his most success in Texas then appeared on the mitchell report after cashing in with the Halos. And no PED's don't magically make you a good hitter. Bud they do make you stronger, better able to focus, and in some cases see better. Those things can help you hit better, but you still have to have a baseline skill. I'm sure Rudy did help some as well. Now I realize my theory has about as much tangible evidence as yours does, believe what you will.



I think they would be closer to consistency. Slumps which last a hell of a lot shorter than a couple of months.

You mean like JD's and TCQ's. Might age an injury be the real culprits here?
I believe Blaylock had prolonged slumps but i would cite injury their too. How come guys that showed promise like Jayson Nix, Mench, & Davis couldn't remain consistent?



We also need a better hitting coach. Sorry you disagree. I guess you've enjoyed the inconsistencies of Walker's entire tenure. The players have changed and it's the same old story. Is it really just the players?

No I've been frustrated as hell with our hitting. But as a hs baseball coach (and no I don't think that makes me an expert, or anywhere on level with the big leagues) i can empathize with players that are incapable or unwilling to at least try to practice what is being preached. And i know at least a few sox players fall into this category.

Rudy Jaromillo is probably a better hitting coach than Greg Walker (at least with a certain type of hitter). I just think its silly that so many people want him gone and are so sure he is incompetant without having the slighest idea what he preaches, or even the rudimentary knowledge of what the "absolutes" of hitting are. And no, I'm not accussing you of being in one of those categories, but for many here the last time the picked up a bat was little league and they couldn't hit it then.

If the sox fired walker I wouldn't shed a tear, but I'm not going to hold him soley accountable that our "slow pitch softball hitting players" aren't consistent. Walker would probably look like a genius if we had Abreu in RF, a healthy tCQ at DH, Matsui in LF, and Polanco at 2b but that wouldn't make him a good hitting coach anymore than our current team makes him a bad one.

Note: that didn't work out exactly as planned but all the blue is me.

oeo
10-14-2009, 06:43 PM
Alex Rodriguez on Jaramillo:
Rudy is unbelievably good. He understands hitting, how to work with all kinds of hitters, and he busts his butt to get the best from hitters. He helped me get better when I was in Texas, sometimes making me work when I wouldn't have if he hadn't been on me. I've seen him do it with other guys too.

He only preaches one thing to all kinds of hitters?

Note: that didn't work out exactly as planned but all the blue is me.

You need to close my quote and open a new one for each paragraph.

dickallen15
10-14-2009, 06:57 PM
There are about a dozen stud ML hitters that have credited Jaramillo with their success, as mentioned in the Trib today.

As I recall, I think I remember reading a list of players who have credited Walker with their success as well....there was....hmmm, let's see.....ummm,..uhhhhh....maybe Konerko, and.....gosh....can't think of anyone else.
And there are dozens of White Sox players who sing the praises of Greg Walker. Again, what happened in 2009 to Texas who as a team struck out over 200 times more than the White Sox if all this guy does is makes people hit? He had a lot of talent to work with.

oeo
10-14-2009, 06:58 PM
And there are dozens of White Sox players who sing the praises of Greg Walker.

Who? :scratch:

dickallen15
10-14-2009, 06:59 PM
Alex Rodriguez on Jaramillo:


He only preaches one thing to all kinds of hitters?



You need to close my quote and open a new one for each paragraph.

Good thing Rudy taught ARod how to hit. He had no clue when he got there. They gave him $252 million just hoping he could be taught. What happened to Ian Kinsler this year? How come he hit .219 on the road with a .287 OBP?

dickallen15
10-14-2009, 07:01 PM
Who? :scratch:
Dye, Thome, Konerko, just about every player who has passed through since he's been in his position except for maybe Frank Thomas who doesn't like anyone to get any credit for his success except himself, and there really is nothing wrong with that. If Rudy is so good, why did Texas struggle on offense this year? Remember, you cannot use the same excuses that can be used for Greg Walker, like injuries age etc. He fixed Andruw Jones who hit .214 and they don't want him back at any price.

Zisk77
10-14-2009, 07:08 PM
Who? :scratch:

Rowand was effusive in his praise for Walker and even continued to contact him when in Philly...not sure if he still does.

Redus Redux
10-14-2009, 07:10 PM
For the most part, hitting coaches are like male nipples

doublem23
10-14-2009, 07:12 PM
For the most part, hitting coaches are like male nipples

Then why can't we fire our ****ty one and pick up a good one?

There is absolutely no way Rudy Jaramillo could be worse than Greg Walker, what is there to lose?

doublem23
10-14-2009, 07:13 PM
FOGW are almost as bad as FOBA.

Seriously, this is ridiculous. How much ****tier does the Sox offense have to get before people start calling for his head?

TDog
10-14-2009, 07:17 PM
There are about a dozen stud ML hitters that have credited Jaramillo with their success, as mentioned in the Trib today.

As I recall, I think I remember reading a list of players who have credited Walker with their success as well....there was....hmmm, let's see.....ummm,..uhhhhh....maybe Konerko, and.....gosh....can't think of anyone else.

When Aaron Rowand was hitting .300 for the Phillies, he credited Greg Walker with teaching him how to hit. Rowand hasn't hit nearly as well with the Giants, though, so maybe this is irrelevant. Not that every hitter's influences won't be clearly defined in print, and it's possible that such influences may have a lot to do with where they played. It isn't like he runs something akin to a tennis camp for young hitting hopefuls.

Whether Jaramillo is a better hitting coach than Walker is less relevant in my mind than my opinion that the White Sox wouldn't have hit any better this year with Jaramillo coaching their hitters.

The Jaramillo love in the media is an extension of the prevalent belief in the media that hiring Lou Piniella to manage the Cubs would guarantee a World Series championship.

dickallen15
10-14-2009, 07:21 PM
Then why can't we fire our ****ty one and pick up a good one?

There is absolutely no way Rudy Jaramillo could be worse than Greg Walker, what is there to lose?
Wasn't Salty Tyler Flowers before Tyler Flowers? He hit .233. Chris Davis is supposed to be an outstanding prospect. .230 with 150 ks. The Rangers hit .248 with a .303 OBP and a .715 OPS on the road this year. I'm sure Rudy is a fine hitting coach, but if your are going to use some results against Walker, can't you look at some of the Rangers numbers and conclude that maybe, just maybe hiring some guy isn't going to make everyone's average jump 30-50 points. The Sox aren't going to suddenly average 7 runs a game. In fact, with age, I believe you could have anyone you wanted as the hitting coach in 2010. If you don't change the roster, the exact same problems will crop up.

ARod was quoted. Look at ARods numbers with Sea, Tex and NY. They are almost indentical at every stop. A little more power in Tex, but the old Yankee Stadium wasn't exactly a RH batters homer paradise. Avg. and OBP almost the same. The hitting coaches for all those teams must be identical.

captain54
10-14-2009, 07:28 PM
If Rudy is so good, why did Texas struggle on offense this year? Remember, you cannot use the same excuses that can be used for Greg Walker, like injuries age etc. He fixed Andruw Jones who hit .214 and they don't want him back at any price.

You can't be serious...just look at Jaramillo's results over the last 15 yrs and Walkers results over the course he has been the hitting coach and you'll have made your issues a mute point.

Which brings me to this issue....Jaramillo, with a stellar record as a hitting coach over the last 15 yrs, and with a team leading all offense categories
in 08', is not welcomed back with open arms in '10.

Yet, the White Sox, coming off 09' with the worst offensive stats in the AL,
and an inconsistent offense in the last 5 years, hint that all coaches are being brought back for 10', including the hitting coach

what's up with that?

dickallen15
10-14-2009, 07:29 PM
When Aaron Rowand was hitting .300 for the Phillies, he credited Greg Walker with teaching him how to hit. Rowand hasn't hit nearly as well with the Giants, though, so maybe this is irrelevant. Not that every hitter's influences won't be clearly defined in print, and it's possible that such influences may have a lot to do with where they played. It isn't like he runs something akin to a tennis camp for young hitting hopefuls.

Whether Jaramillo is a better hitting coach than Walker is less relevant in my mind than my opinion that the White Sox wouldn't have hit any better this year with Jaramillo coaching their hitters.

The Jaramillo love in the media is an extension of the prevalent belief in the media that hiring Lou Piniella to manage the Cubs would guarantee a World Series championship.

Leo Mazzone was the pitching coach's pitching coach. Then he went to Baltimore and had to work with crap. He really would love if someone offerred him a job as a pitching coach again.

khan
10-14-2009, 07:30 PM
Dye, Thome, Konerko, just about every player who has passed through since he's been in his position
Link? Otherwise, I have to call this statement as being bull****.

This really sounds like you're making things up. That is, unless you're counting the times when some veterans stood up for Walker when he was being criticized in the media.

On top of this, you said [when it is noted that there are many who credit Jaramillo for their success],
"And there are dozens of White Sox players who sing the praises of Greg Walker."

Yet you could only name 3 names, of which at least one was "just being a nice guy," as he always is. Two players aren't exactly "dozens."

If Rudy is so good, why did Texas struggle on offense this year? Remember, you cannot use the same excuses that can be used for Greg Walker, like injuries age etc.
Bull****.

He fixed Andruw Jones who hit .214 and they don't want him back at any price.
Jones played all of 82, injury-filled games. I like how you try to deflect the injury issue, then point out one of the MOST-injured rangers from this year to try to support your [flawed] opinion.

I'm curious:

1. Are you related to Greg Walker by blood or marriage?
2. Why do you like Greg Walker so much?

dickallen15
10-14-2009, 07:31 PM
You can't be serious...just look at Jaramillo's results over the last 15 yrs and Walkers results over the course he has been the hitting coach and you'll have made your issues a mute point.

Which brings me to this issue....Jaramillo, with a stellar record as a hitting coach over the last 15 yrs, and with a team leading all offense categories
in 08', is not welcomed back with open arms in '10.

Yet, the White Sox, coming off 09' with the worst offensive stats in the AL,
and an inconsistent offense in the last 5 years, hint that all coaches are being brought back for 10', including the hitting coach

what's up with that?

They offered him a contract he chose not to accept. He makes a ton of money. I think at least $1 million a year, which is probably 5 or 6 times what normal hitting coaches get paid. Maybe its the Cubs, maybe another team, but he obviously has somewhere else to go and a one year contract with perhaps a new owner coming in isn't his cup of tea. He wasn't exactly shown the door.

Zisk77
10-14-2009, 07:32 PM
Alex Rodriguez on Jaramillo:


He only preaches one thing to all kinds of hitters?



You need to close my quote and open a new one for each paragraph.


Of course not. Good hitting coaches have to coach all the hitters and make no mistake, Rudy is a Good coach. I'm sure he helped Young and Derosa and Byrd and everybody else and worked them hard as well. But its silly to think he made those guys and their success is soley or even mostly do to him and the other ranger failures aren't. The point is their is extenuating circumstances for the success fore the aforementiond hitters. You can choos to ignore it and give all the credit to Rudy if you like, I won't.

DeRosa not only claimed young helped him become the hitter he was he even emulated his stance and his approach. While I'm sure Rudy was accepting of that style and could coach to it, it still isn't his "pet" hitting style.

Coaches realize their is more than one way to hit (although certain absolutes must be followed) but they are going to be partial to one or two methods. What i'm saying is that I doubt that Rudy would use Young's model to teach a neophyte hitter.

And BTW a certain poster (not you) here suggested Young was trending down. Well he had his second best year in HR, Batting avg., and the all important OPS stat despite playing in quite a bit fewer games (DL time?). I'm sure glad we didn't trade for him, LOL. Sorry for brief hijack.:redface:

dickallen15
10-14-2009, 07:39 PM
Link? Otherwise, I have to call this statement as being bull****.

This really sounds like you're making things up. That is, unless you're counting the times when some veterans stood up for Walker when he was being criticized in the media.

On top of this, you said [when it is noted that there are many who credit Jaramillo for their success],
"And there are dozens of White Sox players who sing the praises of Greg Walker."

Yet you could only name 3 names, of which at least one was "just being a nice guy," as he always is. Two players aren't exactly "dozens."


Bull****.


Jones played all of 82, injury-filled games. I like how you try to deflect the injury issue, then point out one of the MOST-injured rangers from this year to try to support your [flawed] opinion.

I'm curious:

1. Are you related to Greg Walker by blood or marriage?
2. Why do you like Greg Walker so much?

Carlos Quentin was hurt. Jim Thome was old, Jermaine Dye was spectacular in the first half. Pods was better than ever. Ramirez has been much better than the $1 million player he was signed to be. Konerko was good. AJ was good. Beckham was better than anyone could have expected. What do you think a team that starts of the year with Wise and Lillibridge leading off is going to do offensively? Corky Miller hit 6th a few times. Jayson Nix even led off. Josh Fields? Really. Talent makes a hitting coach look smart.

How many guys leave the White Sox and become all stars? Sometimes you have to be fair. People were up in arms the Sox unloaded Brandon Allen. He hit .202 with 40 strikeouts in 104 AB. He he still were a White Sox, Walker would be blamed. He would have to go, he can't work with young hitters would be what many would say. Quentin goes from a minor deal to a for sure MVP before he breaks his wrist. Does Walker get any credit? No way. If he were a Ranger, Jaramillo made him.

slavko
10-14-2009, 07:41 PM
And Hriniak took plenty of criticism while he was here over his rigidity and onesize fits all approach. Every Hitting Coach that's ever been here has been fired under pressure for crissake. That's a constant.

Another constant is our pining for every free agent that somebody else has cast aside.

That said, you can't like the inability of our guys to make adjustments to the situation on the field and you have to blame someone so.....

khan
10-14-2009, 07:42 PM
Dickallen15, The questions still stand:

1. Are you related to Greg Walker by blood or marriage?

2. Why do you like Greg Walker so much? [Attacking other coaches' records or setting up wholly-inadequate comparisons, such as in the A. Jones citation, or attacking other posters are insufficient for the purposes of this question.]

3. LINK. Show us WHERE Dye and Konerko and "dozens of White Sox players" credit Walker for making them the hitters they are. [I don't ever recall Jim Thome saying anything BUT nice things about other people, so he doesn't count.]

Thank you.

dickallen15
10-14-2009, 07:50 PM
Dickallen15, The questions still stand:

1. Are you related to Greg Walker by blood or marriage?

2. Why do you like Greg Walker so much? [Attacking other coaches' records or setting up wholly-inadequate comparisons, such as in the A. Jones citation, or attacking other posters are insufficient for the purposes of this question.]

3. LINK. Show us WHERE Dye and Konerko and "dozens of White Sox players" credit Walker for making them the hitters they are. [I don't ever recall Jim Thome saying anything BUT nice things about other people, so he doesn't count.]

Thank you.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=9553

From MLB.com
Leaving behind Greg Walker, a man Rowand refers to as "not only the best hitting coach in baseball, hands down, but also one of my best friends," Rowand was forced to rely more on his own knowledge to make corrections with his swing. This bit of personal growth should help answer critics who point to 2007 as a spectacular anomaly compared to his past solid seasons.


Now give me a link where anyone anywhere except on a White Sox fan message board or fan comment that says Greg Walker isn't a good hitting coach.

khan
10-14-2009, 07:56 PM
Dickallen15, The questions still stand:

1. Are you related to Greg Walker by blood or marriage? [I don't believe in attacking another person's kin, so this is why I ask.]

2. Why do you like Greg Walker so much? [Attacking other coaches' records or setting up wholly-inadequate comparisons, such as in the A. Jones citation, or attacking other posters are insufficient for the purposes of this question.]

I want to know WHY you think Greg Walker is a good coach. Maybe you can convince us.

But all you've done [hereto fore] is to make silly comparisons between Walker and more successful coaches. Or to make ham-handed comparisons, as in the case of Andruw Jones. Or to make over-the-top proclaimations about how "dozens of white sox players" proclaim Walker to be a guru.

Just tell us WHY you think Greg Walker is a good coach. If not, tell us WHY you like Greg Walker.


Thank you.

Brian26
10-14-2009, 07:59 PM
Link? Otherwise, I have to call this statement as being bull****.

Mod Edit


Bull****.


Mod Edit

I'm curious:

1. Are you related to Greg Walker by blood or marriage?
2. Why do you like Greg Walker so much?

Tone it down. Enough with the personal assault against DickAllen15. Treat people with a little more respect. That's your only warning.

Brian26
10-14-2009, 08:02 PM
Dickallen15, The questions still stand:

1. Are you related to Greg Walker by blood or marriage?

Dickallen15, The questions still stand:

1. Are you related to Greg Walker by blood or marriage? [I don't believe in attacking another person's kin, so this is why I ask.]

On second thought, take some time off. I don't want to see an entire thread mucked up with your silly bullying of another poster. He's clearly not related to Walker, and there's no need to ask the question three or four times.

Zisk77
10-14-2009, 08:07 PM
Dickallen15, The questions still stand:

1. Are you related to Greg Walker by blood or marriage?

2. Why do you like Greg Walker so much? [Attacking other coaches' records or setting up wholly-inadequate comparisons, such as in the A. Jones citation, or attacking other posters are insufficient for the purposes of this question.]

3. LINK. Show us WHERE Dye and Konerko and "dozens of White Sox players" credit Walker for making them the hitters they are. [I don't ever recall Jim Thome saying anything BUT nice things about other people, so he doesn't count.]

Thank you.


hell, a poster maybe Lip? linked an article in the middle of thread in the clubhouse a few days ago where Konerko credited Walker.

Why don't you take the time to surf the internet to find it?

Its not hard to find players praising their coaches - whether its genuine or not is debatable.

Seems childish to me that you keep badgering that the poster is related to Walker.

But here is one of your "almighty" links about halfway down the article from Swisher no less saying how hard walk works him and instills confidence.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap?gid=280609104

captain54
10-14-2009, 08:12 PM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=9553

From MLB.com
Leaving behind Greg Walker, a man Rowand refers to as "not only the best hitting coach in baseball, hands down, but also one of my best friends," Rowand was forced to rely more on his own knowledge to make corrections with his swing. This bit of personal growth should help answer critics who point to 2007 as a spectacular anomaly compared to his past solid seasons.


Now give me a link where anyone anywhere except on a White Sox fan message board or fan comment that says Greg Walker isn't a good hitting coach.

link to a Cleveland Indians fan board where they seem shocked that the White Soxhitting coach is given a free pass after such a miserable offensive year

http://www.letsgotribe.com/2009/9/23/1052453/kenny-williams-calls-his-players

Best hitting coach in baseball??

Scouting and putting together a good hitting plan against opponents whom the team has not seen before

Hitting to the right side in order to move runners from second to third

Proper technique and thought process about driving in runners from third with less than two outs

The White Sox were HORRIBLE at all of these aspects of the game and no one will ever convince me that the hitting coach shouldn't be held responsible

dickallen15
10-14-2009, 08:18 PM
link to a Cleveland Indians fan board where they seem shocked that the White Soxhitting coach is given a free pass after such a miserable offensive year

http://www.letsgotribe.com/2009/9/23/1052453/kenny-williams-calls-his-players

Best hitting coach in baseball??

Scouting and putting together a good hitting plan against opponents whom the team has not seen before

Hitting to the right side in order to move runners from second to third

Proper technique and thought process about driving in runners from third with less than two outs

The White Sox were HORRIBLE at all of these aspects of the game and no one will ever convince me that the hitting coach shouldn't be held responsible

That settles it. A Cleveland Indians fan board suggests Greg Walker sucks so he must. Please give me a source with some credibility. There must be tons. If he was so bad wouldn't some media source have something someone says off the record that Walker really is the clueless wonder message boards make him out to be? Eventually Walker will be gone. I really doubt the team jumps in all categories right away.

Chances are Rudy winds up with the Cubs in 2010. Do you really expect the same players that had 2 hitting coaches canned in 2009 to become a juggernaut? BTW the scouting report is not something a hitting coach puts together. Its something he gets from advanced scouts. That message board also says KW sucks. Kevin Towers is available.

Zisk77
10-14-2009, 08:24 PM
link to a Cleveland Indians fan board where they seem shocked that the White Soxhitting coach is given a free pass after such a miserable offensive year

http://www.letsgotribe.com/2009/9/23/1052453/kenny-williams-calls-his-players

Best hitting coach in baseball??

Scouting and putting together a good hitting plan against opponents whom the team has not seen before

Hitting to the right side in order to move runners from second to third

Proper technique and thought process about driving in runners from third with less than two outs

The White Sox were HORRIBLE at all of these aspects of the game and no one will ever convince me that the hitting coach shouldn't be held responsible

i agree we were horrible at all those things. i also saw our players, including our sluggers Konerko and Dye, TRY to hit behind the runner... they aren't GOOD at it.

Ask yourself this. When was the last time you saw Andruw Jones hit behind the runner? In 2005 we were good at hitting behind the runner Walker was coach. If the players are over the hill, "slow pitched" soft ball players, and rookies with marginal skill they aren't going to execute for anyone. Fire walker, hire Rudy but run the same guys out there you are probably getting the same result. Garbage in Garbage out I believe is the computer phrase.

captain54
10-14-2009, 08:39 PM
BTW the scouting report is not something a hitting coach puts together. Its something he gets from advanced scouts.

Oh, great... another thing Walker isn't responsible for.

If he was so bad wouldn't some media source have something someone says off the record that Walker really is the clueless wonder message boards make him out to be?

The way it works is, the bad or subpar coaches, players, etc. don't get a lot of press...Unless it's some kind of novelty piece....Do you see a lot of coverage of the Washington Nationals in the media?

captain54
10-14-2009, 08:50 PM
In 2005 we were good at hitting behind the runner Walker was coach. If the players are over the hill, "slow pitched" soft ball players, and rookies with marginal skill they aren't going to execute for anyone. Fire walker, hire Rudy but run the same guys out there you are probably getting the same result. Garbage in Garbage out I believe is the computer phrase.

The Sox have had the same offensive result since Ozzie has been manager, right around the time Walker began as well....Rely on the two-three run homer and when the homers dry up, all you have are big fat zeros across the board and the players, fans, etc. all go to sleep.

So according to your theory, the Sox have had garbage on the roster for 5 yrs now, and I find that highly implausible.

Pablo_Honey
10-14-2009, 08:54 PM
link to a Cleveland Indians fan board where they seem shocked that the White Soxhitting coach is given a free pass after such a miserable offensive year

http://www.letsgotribe.com/2009/9/23/1052453/kenny-williams-calls-his-players

Best hitting coach in baseball??

Scouting and putting together a good hitting plan against opponents whom the team has not seen before

Hitting to the right side in order to move runners from second to third

Proper technique and thought process about driving in runners from third with less than two outs

The White Sox were HORRIBLE at all of these aspects of the game and no one will ever convince me that the hitting coach shouldn't be held responsible

Just out of curiosity, have you read Moneyball before? If you haven't, you should read it. It's good for a few chuckles. The reason I'm bringing up Moneyball is because there's a section in the book that deals with how A's hitters visit video room to watch clips of pitchers they had trouble before. While this may not be the case for every player, it wasn't the first time I heard a player prepared himself by watching videoclips, not by going to a hitting coach. Tony Gwynn did this a lot so much that he got the nickname "Captain Video." This is one of the reasons why I believe the bolded parts in the quote are not up to the hitting coach.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is a hitting coach can only do so much with players. Walker can't swing or think for hitters, nor can he mess with their swings and heads. If he tries to prepare players and the players refuse, then he can't do anything - that's more of an Ozzie's job. Let's put it this way: if the hitting coach is given crap to work with, anything he does with that crap is still crap. We can't blame everything on Walker. If Walker's fired, that means Ozzie and Kenny thought Wise, Lillibridge, Miller, etc had potential of a major leaguer and somehow Walker was not able to turn them into one.

Lip Man 1
10-14-2009, 09:02 PM
I see both sides to this discussion. In my mind it wouldn't hurt things to bring in a new voice, perhaps that's simply change for changes sake but that's the way the world works sometimes.

I also see the point expressed by the next interview for WSI which will be released when George deems it so:

“I think he is being made a scapegoat in some respects. Certainly a hitting coach has some responsibility for what happens but I think more responsibility goes to the talent evaluators and issues in the organization than the actual hitting coach. Here’s what I mean. The Nick Swisher evaluation was blown. The Sox thought they were getting a certain type player and that wasn’t the case at all. That’s not Greg Walker’s fault. Brian Anderson never developed the way the Sox thought that he would. He had issues while at the University of Arizona and he had wrist injury issues but the Sox thought he’d develop a certain way anyway. He didn’t…that’s not all on Greg Walker.”

Lip

dickallen15
10-14-2009, 09:03 PM
Oh, great... another thing Walker isn't responsible for.



The way it works is, the bad or subpar coaches, players, etc. don't get a lot of press...Unless it's some kind of novelty piece....Do you see a lot of coverage of the Washington Nationals in the media?

If a hitting coach had to write scouting reports he would have to be in 2 cities at once.

What happened to the Texas hitters this past season? Did Jaramillo just get stupid? They didn't hit, it must be his fault.

captain54
10-14-2009, 09:28 PM
What happened to the Texas hitters this past season? Did Jaramillo just get stupid? They didn't hit, it must be his fault.

If you want to go strictly on last years stats, I'd still take Jaramillo, despite what happened last year. The Texas offense was a tad below average, whereas the Sox offense was the worst in the league.

pmck003
10-14-2009, 09:31 PM
I think its hard to blame Walker for the second half this year. I find it hard to put fault on Walker for Dye or Rios, and if you think Quentin should of had a better second half then you have to credit Walker for developing him in the first place. The guys usually on top - Ramirez, Pods, and Beckham, hit at least as well as expected and I would say Pods and Beckham significantly above. Would anyone have expected to make the playoffs at the beginning of the season with the core of AJ, Konerko, and Thome?

Earlier this year I was for replacing Walker, but the Pro-Walker argument has changed my mind. I would agree that sometimes a new perspective is what is needed though.

Ranger
10-14-2009, 09:36 PM
I think DeRosa would be the first to tell you that michael young is responsible for his hitting as it was made widely known that he patterned his hitting style after Young while he was in Texas.

So it was Rudy and not the roids that matthews tested positive for that made him a better hitter? Do you think it was Matthew inadequate defense or inadequate hitting that caused the Angels to sign Torii Hunter and relegate matthews to the bench? See numerous threads on Marlon Byrd.

I think Rudy Jaramillo is a good hitting coach, but do you think he really is going to make Konerko a better hitter and Thome and Dye When they were here? after all it was the midle of our order that killed us. Will his toe-tapping method work for all the Sox like it did for Sammy Sosa?

If we want to improve our hitting we need better baseball players and we need to stay healthy.

Correct.

Ranger
10-14-2009, 09:43 PM
Link? Otherwise, I have to call this statement as being bull****.

This really sounds like you're making things up. That is, unless you're counting the times when some veterans stood up for Walker when he was being criticized in the media.

On top of this, you said [when it is noted that there are many who credit Jaramillo for their success],
"And there are dozens of White Sox players who sing the praises of Greg Walker."

Yet you could only name 3 names, of which at least one was "just being a nice guy," as he always is. Two players aren't exactly "dozens."


Bull****.


Jones played all of 82, injury-filled games. I like how you try to deflect the injury issue, then point out one of the MOST-injured rangers from this year to try to support your [flawed] opinion.

I'm curious:

1. Are you related to Greg Walker by blood or marriage?
2. Why do you like Greg Walker so much?

I just have to say that this is maybe the worst possible retort I've ever read.

dickallen15
10-14-2009, 10:23 PM
BTW, Jaramillo is a Boras client.

Zisk77
10-14-2009, 11:32 PM
The Sox have had the same offensive result since Ozzie has been manager, right around the time Walker began as well....Rely on the two-three run homer and when the homers dry up, all you have are big fat zeros across the board and the players, fans, etc. all go to sleep.

So according to your theory, the Sox have had garbage on the roster for 5 yrs now, and I find that highly implausible.


The players we had in 2005 are not the players we have now. Even the current players that were here in 2005 aren't the same players now if you get my drift.

Also i used the analogy of the computer term Garbage in Garbage out and did not literally mean all our players are garbage. :scratch:

We had too many players that either were not good at doing the "small ball" things like hitting behind runners or too inexperienced to be consistent with it. Hopefully the young ones will improve and at least some of the older ones replaced. We still can use a couple of thumpers in the middle of the order though.

captain54
10-14-2009, 11:43 PM
We had too many players that either were not good at doing the "small ball" things like hitting behind runners or too inexperienced to be consistent with it.

so if you have players that are not good at one aspect of hitting, and some that are inconsistent or inexperienced, why not have someone in the organization try to correct these players deficiencies.....like....

a hitting coach, maybe?

Daver
10-14-2009, 11:47 PM
so if you have players that are not good at one aspect of hitting, and some that are inconsistent or inexperienced, why not have someone in the organization try to correct these players deficiencies.....like....

a hitting coach, maybe?

Shouldn't your farm system be delivering players capable of doing that to the MLB roster?

Zisk77
10-14-2009, 11:54 PM
so if you have players that are not good at one aspect of hitting, and some that are inconsistent or inexperienced, why not have someone in the organization try to correct these players deficiencies.....like....

a hitting coach, maybe?

Because some hitter simply can't do that. Do you think Walker hasn't tried to teach these players to hit behind the runners? Its not like they are refusing to try to do it. Numerous times I've seen players change their swings to move the runner only to see them foul the ball off. Pull hitters really struggle to do this...thats why they are pull hitters. As I said before, was Rudy able to get Andruw Jones to hit behind the runner?

As far as the inexperienced players we have...they did get better at it. In fact the got pretty damn good at the hit n run aspect of it. Sometimes it was down right pretty. And our sac bunting was significantly better than in years past...but we still don't ask the guys who can't do it to attempt it.

captain54
10-14-2009, 11:59 PM
Shouldn't your farm system be delivering players capable of doing that to the MLB roster?

True, but I would think that if a player makes it to a MLB roster, but still has a flaw in his technique, a good coach can pick up on the flaw and correct it...but then again, I guess that's just me.

TDog
10-15-2009, 06:29 AM
Shouldn't your farm system be delivering players capable of doing that to the MLB roster?

Maybe Rudy Jaramillo would be best suited for the minor leagues if it were in his power to assure such as thing.

Of course, this thread has little or no connection with reality. Greg Walker will be back next year with the White Sox. No argument offered here will affect his employment status. (In the 1950s, I understand, people picketed Fenway Park to demand Pumpsie Green be called up from the minors, but I can't imagine the hatred of Walker runs so deep that people will picket the Cell the winter.) Arguments here will only give the Jaramillo backers the opportunity to say they are smarter than everyone else every time a White Sox hitter fails in 2010.

If Jaramillo has hired Boras as an agent, there are several teams, including the White Sox, that won't bother to consider hiring him. If he wants a multi-year contract for big money, the contract will be highly publicized and large enough that there will be no way he could ever live up to it in the minds of the fans in the city where he ends up.

I know people get emotional about this issue, but the discussion is about alternate fantasies rather than alternate realities.

The point is moot. There is nothing to see here.

thedudeabides
10-15-2009, 11:12 AM
Maybe Rudy Jaramillo would be best suited for the minor leagues if it were in his power to assure such as thing.

Of course, this thread has little or no connection with reality. Greg Walker will be back next year with the White Sox. No argument offered here will affect his employment status. (In the 1950s, I understand, people picketed Fenway Park to demand Pumpsie Green be called up from the minors, but I can't imagine the hatred of Walker runs so deep that people will picket the Cell the winter.) Arguments here will only give the Jaramillo backers the opportunity to say they are smarter than everyone else every time a White Sox hitter fails in 2010.

If Jaramillo has hired Boras as an agent, there are several teams, including the White Sox, that won't bother to consider hiring him. If he wants a multi-year contract for big money, the contract will be highly publicized and large enough that there will be no way he could ever live up to it in the minds of the fans in the city where he ends up.

I know people get emotional about this issue, but the discussion is about alternate fantasies rather than alternate realities.

The point is moot. There is nothing to see here.

:clap:

Well put.

There are definitely too many people here who put way too much value in a hitting coach. Jaramillo's track record shows he's probabaly a better hitting coach than Walker, but he's also been around a lot longer.

Rudy is very well respected and if I had to pick, I would take him over Walker, but I don't think we would see much of a difference next year, and it's not happening, so it's not even worth getting worked up about.
Texas has also put a lot of resources into their offense and drafted very well offensively. It's also a very good hitters park.

I really think people need to take a closer look at personel when it comes to evaluating an offense.

FielderJones
10-15-2009, 11:22 AM
I know people get emotional about this issue, but the discussion is about alternate fantasies rather than alternate realities.

The point is moot. There is nothing to see here.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Simply pointing out that replacing Greg Walker won't necessarily get you a .040 jump in team average gets you labeled a FOGW around here. The FORJ dismiss Walker's 2005 successes as well as Jaramillo's 2009 failures. It's all emotional.

pmck003
10-15-2009, 12:04 PM
Texas has also put a lot of resources into their offense


:prozac:canseco

kobo
10-15-2009, 12:07 PM
It's not all emotional. I know Walker is not 100% to blame for the success and failure of the offense as it is also the personnel that needs to be held accountable. There are some people who simply are tired of the inconsistencies of the offense and want to see a change. Why are so many people afraid of making a change?

soxfanreggie
10-15-2009, 12:07 PM
Seriously, this is ridiculous. How much ****tier does the Sox offense have to get before people start calling for his head?

For some people, no matter how bad we are overall, it's never his fault. They'll point out that you aren't giving him credit for the successes. Well, if you're a .100 hitter in the bigs, you were "successful" (just go with me on this example) 1 in 10 times (to your credit), but you "failed" 9 out of 10 times. Does that mean we should keep you in the big leagues because you had some successes?

dickallen15
10-15-2009, 12:22 PM
For some people, no matter how bad we are overall, it's never his fault. They'll point out that you aren't giving him credit for the successes. Well, if you're a .100 hitter in the bigs, you were "successful" (just go with me on this example) 1 in 10 times (to your credit), but you "failed" 9 out of 10 times. Does that mean we should keep you in the big leagues because you had some successes?

Look into your crystal ball and tell me what you would project current White Sox personnel to hit if Jaramillo were the hitting coach opposed to Walker. Exactly how much better would they be?

Waysouthsider
10-15-2009, 12:27 PM
Anyone else out there wondering if we were "too quick on the draw" to resign Greg Walker? I'd have been pretty psyched to see Rudy on the Southside.....there's some talk he might head up to the sCrUBs....that would sure be a drag....

Given that our season was so affected by the lack of production, I wonder what a guy like Rudy could have added to our 2010. No offense intended to Mr. Walker.

Waysouthsider
10-15-2009, 01:06 PM
Rudy is on Ripken baseball right now....

kobo
10-15-2009, 01:09 PM
Look into your crystal ball and tell me what you would project current White Sox personnel to hit if Jaramillo were the hitting coach opposed to Walker. Exactly how much better would they be?
And when you look in your crystal ball how much worse are they? Nobody knows if bringing in another coach will change anything. Why? Because it's not all on the coach, the players share responsibility as well. But it's a lot easier to replace one coach than it is to replace an entire lineup.

Look, if you are content watching the same offense next year then fine. If you don't think a change in coaching philosophies will make a difference that's fine too. Heck, I don't even know enough of each man's philosophies to know how much they differ if they differ at all. But as a fan, I'm tired of the inconsistent offense this team has had since Walker has been here. Again, I know it's not all on Walker, but I fail to see why a change in hitting coach is a bad thing.

soxfanreggie
10-15-2009, 01:13 PM
Look into your crystal ball and tell me what you would project current White Sox personnel to hit if Jaramillo were the hitting coach opposed to Walker. Exactly how much better would they be?

The same or better. I don't project us being worse. Some players may be sad to see Walker go at first, but I think they'd get over it just fine.

pmck003
10-15-2009, 01:23 PM
For some people, no matter how bad we are overall, it's never his fault. They'll point out that you aren't giving him credit for the successes. Well, if you're a .100 hitter in the bigs, you were "successful" (just go with me on this example) 1 in 10 times (to your credit), but you "failed" 9 out of 10 times. Does that mean we should keep you in the big leagues because you had some successes?

I just can't figure out what to blame Walker for this season. Even Nix and Lillibridge significantly increased their OBP. I guess Betemit continued to suck; Quentin had a bad 10-15 game streak going at the end of April/May; Ramirez had another slow start along w/ Thome. Maybe Dye would of been helped in the second half by a different hitting coach, maybe he would of stunk all year. Again, how good would this team of looked minus Quentin and Dye at the beginning of the year, esp. considering there was no Pods or Beckham?

I don't see how you can make an argument for Walker being below average, let alone terrible. Sometimes all that is needed is a new/fresh perspective but I think Walker been above average so far.

doublem23
10-15-2009, 01:24 PM
Look into your crystal ball and tell me what you would project current White Sox personnel to hit if Jaramillo were the hitting coach opposed to Walker. Exactly how much better would they be?

Who gives a ****? No way they could regress any further if they made a change.

I suppose two teams scored fewer runs than we did per game in 2009. Maybe Walk can get us to #14 next year! YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAH

dickallen15
10-15-2009, 01:39 PM
Who gives a ****? No way they could regress any further if they made a change.

I suppose two teams scored fewer runs than we did per game in 2009. Maybe Walk can get us to #14 next year! YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAH

Jaramillo's charges hit .248 with a .303OBP and a .712OPS on the road in 2009. Apparently struggling isn't trademarked by Greg Walker. When Ian Kinsler hits .217 on the road, it makes me wonder how he is automatically going to improve the White Sox offense.

Ranger
10-15-2009, 02:43 PM
Shouldn't your farm system be delivering players capable of doing that to the MLB roster?

Yes, they should.

doublem23
10-15-2009, 02:47 PM
Jaramillo's charges hit .248 with a .303OBP and a .712OPS on the road in 2009. Apparently struggling isn't trademarked by Greg Walker. When Ian Kinsler hits .217 on the road, it makes me wonder how he is automatically going to improve the White Sox offense.

HOW MANY GOD DAMN TIMES DO I HAVE TO WRITE THE EXACT SAME ****


Jaramillo's track record blows Walker's out of the water.
I don't give a crap how much or little the hitting coach has to do with the team's actual on-field play. I do know that in Walker's tenure the Sox have basically been a below average offensive team, only once really (2006) having a good, consistent offense. So you can throw every stat or number at me, but I can tell you from watching this team for the past few years that GREG WALKER IS A ****TY HITTING COACH.

dickallen15
10-15-2009, 02:54 PM
HOW MANY GOD DAMN TIMES DO I HAVE TO WRITE THE EXACT SAME ****


Jaramillo's track record blows Walker's out of the water.
I don't give a crap how much or little the hitting coach has to do with the team's actual on-field play. I do know that in Walker's tenure the Sox have basically been a below average offensive team, only once really (2006) having a good, consistent offense. So you can throw every stat or number at me, but I can tell you from watching this team for the past few years that GREG WALKER IS A ****TY HITTING COACH.


Actually, the White Sox have had several years they have been above average offensively and were a team built to hit homers, and have hit about as many as any team during Walker's reign. You are just wrong. Look at the personnel. You couldn't blame a baserunning coach for not getting Konerko to steal 50 bases could you? When you don't have players capable of doing certain things, no coach is going to get them to do it. Now if the White Sox had some guys who hit .220 for them but .280 before they came to the team or after, you might have a point. But they don't. Its also interesting to note that KW stated Ozzie and Baines and Cora all have helped out with the hitters. Do they have to go as well?

Didn't Leo Mazzone's track record blow everyone out of the water? Then he gets big bucks to go to Baltimore, and what happens when the talent level isn't the same? He gets the same results as the guy he replaced. If you want Greg Walker to be a better hitting coach, get him better hitters, not aging guys on the downslope.

Ranger
10-15-2009, 03:01 PM
Maybe Rudy Jaramillo would be best suited for the minor leagues if it were in his power to assure such as thing.

Of course, this thread has little or no connection with reality. Greg Walker will be back next year with the White Sox. No argument offered here will affect his employment status. (In the 1950s, I understand, people picketed Fenway Park to demand Pumpsie Green be called up from the minors, but I can't imagine the hatred of Walker runs so deep that people will picket the Cell the winter.) Arguments here will only give the Jaramillo backers the opportunity to say they are smarter than everyone else every time a White Sox hitter fails in 2010.

If Jaramillo has hired Boras as an agent, there are several teams, including the White Sox, that won't bother to consider hiring him. If he wants a multi-year contract for big money, the contract will be highly publicized and large enough that there will be no way he could ever live up to it in the minds of the fans in the city where he ends up.

I know people get emotional about this issue, but the discussion is about alternate fantasies rather than alternate realities.

The point is moot. There is nothing to see here.

:clap:

Well put.

There are definitely too many people here who put way too much value in a hitting coach. Jaramillo's track record shows he's probabaly a better hitting coach than Walker, but he's also been around a lot longer.

Rudy is very well respected and if I had to pick, I would take him over Walker, but I don't think we would see much of a difference next year, and it's not happening, so it's not even worth getting worked up about.
Texas has also put a lot of resources into their offense and drafted very well offensively. It's also a very good hitters park.

I really think people need to take a closer look at personel when it comes to evaluating an offense.



Simply pointing out that replacing Greg Walker won't necessarily get you a .040 jump in team average gets you labeled a FOGW around here. The FORJ dismiss Walker's 2005 successes as well as Jaramillo's 2009 failures. It's all emotional.

Jaramillo's charges hit .248 with a .303OBP and a .712OPS on the road in 2009. Apparently struggling isn't trademarked by Greg Walker. When Ian Kinsler hits .217 on the road, it makes me wonder how he is automatically going to improve the White Sox offense.


Reality. I love it. And then....


HOW MANY GOD DAMN TIMES DO I HAVE TO WRITE THE EXACT SAME ****


Jaramillo's track record blows Walker's out of the water.
I don't give a crap how much or little the hitting coach has to do with the team's actual on-field play. I do know that in Walker's tenure the Sox have basically been a below average offensive team, only once really (2006) having a good, consistent offense. So you can throw every stat or number at me, but I can tell you from watching this team for the past few years that GREG WALKER IS A ****TY HITTING COACH.




Because you don't understand that this is not an "A + B = C" equation. This isn't "The Sox Offense Struggles" + "Greg Walker is the Hitting Coach" therefore "Greg Walker isn't a Good Hitting Coach." Rudy Jaramillo is good because Rudy Jaramillo has/had some excellent hitters and a wonderful ballpark to hit in. The ball sails, the infield is like concrete, and it's 100 degrees every day.

You say Jaramillo's track record has been consistently good for several years and the 2009 results are an aberration. Well, if the hitting coach has as great of an effect as you believe he has, Jaramillo should never have a 2009 because he could prevent it. Well, why didn't he prevent it?

captain54
10-15-2009, 03:51 PM
Exactly how much better would they be?

another hitting coach is win-win situation.....here's why

1)can't get any worse...Sox are already at the bottom offensively, so the other two possibilities with any other hitting coach on the planet are either, the numbers stay the same or, they get better

2)mentally, I think I will go insane if I watch a repeat of what happened offensively in 2009. With Walker as coach, there's a high probability that will happen. At least with the hiring of another coach, I would be able to loosen the straps of my strait jacket and have hope that things could possibly be better, no matter how delusional that might be.

oeo
10-15-2009, 03:55 PM
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Simply pointing out that replacing Greg Walker won't necessarily get you a .040 jump in team average gets you labeled a FOGW around here. The FORJ dismiss Walker's 2005 successes as well as Jaramillo's 2009 failures. It's all emotional.

He didn't have 2005 successes. It was the same old story. We won because of our pitching staff, not our ****ty offense.

Rudy Jaramillo is good because Rudy Jaramillo has/had some excellent hitters and a wonderful ballpark to hit in. The ball sails, the infield is like concrete, and it's 100 degrees every day.

That's it? Then why do former Rangers call him for mechanical advice?

Reality. I love it...

dickallen15
10-15-2009, 04:04 PM
He didn't have 2005 successes. It was the same old story. We won because of our pitching staff, not our ****ty offense.



That's it? Then why do former Rangers call him for mechanical advice?

Reality. I love it...
Why did the Rangers struggle offensively this year? Was was their OBP lower than the White Sox? Why did they strike out over 200 times more than the White Sox? All he touches turns to gold, and he's guaranteed to make things better. Why did this happen?

Ranger
10-15-2009, 04:06 PM
That's it? Then why do former Rangers call him for mechanical advice?

Reality. I love it...

For the same reason some guys keep in touch with Walker: because they develop relationships with their batting coaches. Ones that they like anyway.

Still, would you like to take a stab at my question? Here it is again: why is it that Jaramillo did not prevent a Rangers offensive shortage this year? If he is that good, and has that much effect, why would Texas have a year like they did in 2009? Did he decide to take it easy this year? Did he figure that he's done enough good in his career that he didn't need to work hard?

oeo
10-15-2009, 04:11 PM
For the same reason some guys keep in touch with Walker: because they develop relationships with their batting coaches. Ones that they like anyway.

Still, would you like to take a stab at my question? Here it is again: why is it that Jaramillo did not prevent a Rangers offensive shortage this year? If he is that good, and has that much effect, why would Texas have a year like they did in 2009? Did he decide to take it easy this year? Did he figure that he's done enough good in his career that he didn't need to work hard?

Who knows and who cares? He has a history of being very successful. 1 year vs. 14, hmm...

I'm still waiting for a Sox offense to be consistently good with Greg Walker at the helm.

Ranger
10-15-2009, 04:19 PM
Who knows and who cares? He has a history of being very successful. 1 year vs. 14, hmm...

I'm still waiting for a Sox offense to be good with Greg Walker at the helm.

No, sir. You don't get to not care. If a batting coach is as effective as you think he is, he should never have an off year. His offense should be good every year. So why didn't Jaramillo produce this year? He still had Kinsler, Young, Blalock, so why weren't they as good? I think you're right, you don't know because you don't understand the actual effect of a hitting coach versus the perceived effect.

Or is it that it really comes down to the players on the team?

oeo
10-15-2009, 04:22 PM
No, sir. You don't get to not care. If a batting coach is as effective as you think he is, he should never have an off year. His offense should be good every year. So why didn't Jaramillo produce this year? He still had Kinsler, Young, Blalock, so why weren't they as good? I think you're right, you don't know because you don't understand the actual effect of a hitting coach versus the perceived effect.

Or is it that it really comes down to the players on the team?

I've never made the claim that you need to be good every year. However, you do need to be good most of the time. We have never had a consistent offense. The players change, the hitting coach stays, and the results are the same.

Ranger
10-15-2009, 04:35 PM
I've never made the claim that you need to be good every year. However, you do need to be good most of the time. We have never had a consistent offense. The players change, the hitting coach stays, and the results are the same.

No, if the position is that effective, the offense should be good every season. There should be no off years. I mean, the Rangers essentially had the same guys this year, so why were they so bad? He's Rudy Jaramillo. He should've fixed them.

Why is it that the Rangers went from the best offensive team in the league last year to an average-to-poor offensive team this year? Most of the Rangers came back this year and the hitting coach was the same...so that means?

The explanation is that some players just had down seasons, which means that it ultimately comes down to the personnel, not the hitting coach.

dickallen15
10-15-2009, 04:35 PM
I've never made the claim that you need to be good every year. However, you do need to be good most of the time. We have never had a consistent offense. The players change, the hitting coach stays, and the results are the same.
So you are saying the White Sox offensive talent should have produced better results over the years. Who on the White Sox has consistently underperformed offensively? The problem with the White Sox offense is they were built to slug. They were slow in the middle. They couldn't score if they weren't going long because they had a station to station team. That's not Greg Walker. Please name some players who played elsewhere or went elsewhere and suddenly became offensive forces. Don't say Swisher because one of the many reasons he was traded was he didn't listen to Walker. His dad is his batting coach. Certainly if Walker is as much of a poison as you suggest, guys should be raking elsewhere when they leave and get some professional instruction. You need to realize if a batting coach made as much difference across the board as you believe, they would get paid a lot more than less than half what the Sox gave Bartolo Colon this year.

captain54
10-15-2009, 04:40 PM
the Rangers essentially had the same guys this year, so why were they so bad? He's Rudy Jaramillo. He should've fixed them.



Wrong....injuries and more players in the lineup playing their first full MLB season in 09'



"You had a lot of young kids that were inexperienced," Jaramillo said. "It was all mental. You saw mechanical issues, but the problem was trusting themselves at the big league level. They put pressure on themselves and they wanted to excel and the harder they tried, the tougher it got."

Craig Grebeck
10-15-2009, 04:44 PM
So I'm just going to go ahead and say that both Rongey and OEO are wrong. The answer is somewhere in the middle, though I'm not sure if I'm pretty embarrassed/confused by Rongey's assertion that the hitting coach might as well not even exist.

spawn
10-15-2009, 04:47 PM
Wrong....injuries and more players in the lineup playing their first full MLB season in 09'

And what did the Sox have? Before Pods, you had Dewayne Wise leading off. Lillibridge was also in the lineup, as was Josh Fields before Beckham burst onto the scene, or Brian Anderson when Wise wasn't in. They were also trotting out Wilson Betemit. Jayson Nix was in the lineup as well, as was Chris getz, neither of whom had played a full MLB season. The real "veterans" in the lineup were AJ, who did hit over .300, JD, who was pretty solid the first half of the season, Thome, and Paulie, who was pretty solid as well. Now, I'm not a "FOGW", but I also can't put 100% of the blame on him as to why the offense struggled this season.

Zisk77
10-15-2009, 04:48 PM
Wrong....injuries and more players in the lineup playing their first full MLB season in 09'



"You had a lot of young kids that were inexperienced," Jaramillo said. "It was all mental. You saw mechanical issues, but the problem was trusting themselves at the big league level. They put pressure on themselves and they wanted to excel and the harder they tried, the tougher it got."

yep that wasn't an issue at all with the white sox :scratch::scratch::scratch:

dickallen15
10-15-2009, 04:53 PM
Wrong....injuries and more players in the lineup playing their first full MLB season in 09'



"You had a lot of young kids that were inexperienced," Jaramillo said. "It was all mental. You saw mechanical issues, but the problem was trusting themselves at the big league level. They put pressure on themselves and they wanted to excel and the harder they tried, the tougher it got."

Beckham, Getz, Nix, Pods who was out of baseball, Wise, BA. Kinsler has been an All Star, he hit .217 on the road. Whatever happened to Hank Blaylock, a former All Star and now he can't hit .240 even with the guy that makes everyone awesome. In fact his numbers would remind people of Juan Uribe at his worst. You will use injuries as another excuse. Of course you won't use injuries and age for White Sox hitters. When they don't hit, without exception, its because of the hitting coach. Does it even make you wonder that the only places people bitch about Greg Walker are fan boards? The people that get paid to evaluate his performance think its beyond good.

Daver
10-15-2009, 04:59 PM
So I'm just going to go ahead and say that both Rongey and OEO are wrong. The answer is somewhere in the middle, though I'm not sure if I'm pretty embarrassed/confused by Rongey's assertion that the hitting coach might as well not even exist.

Let me get this straight, you are telling someone they are wrong, yet you do this while admitting you don't know what the answer is?

How droll.

For your next trick can you pull an elephant out of a hat?

oeo
10-15-2009, 05:01 PM
yep that wasn't an issue at all with the white sox :scratch::scratch::scratch:

All two of our inexperienced hitters?

captain54
10-15-2009, 05:04 PM
You will use injuries as another excuse. Of course you won't use injuries and age for White Sox hitters. When they don't hit, without exception, its because of the hitting coach. Does it even make you wonder that the only places people bitch about Greg Walker are fan boards? The people that get paid to evaluate his performance think its beyond good.

1)The people that get paid to evaluate Walker's performance do not base his employability upon his performance, they base it on his loyalty to the organization and his ability to fit into the organizational mode.

2)The White Sox were relatively injury free in 2009...one of the most injury free seasons on record, actually.

3)As the 2009 season progressed, the issues were really not at the top and bottom of the lineup, where the two rookies resided....It was in the middle of the order, where we saw the same Greg Walker patented offense since 04'

dickallen15
10-15-2009, 05:05 PM
All two of our inexperienced hitters?

The only guy on the Rangers roster, which BTW, has a lot of veterans, who batted more than 160 times and had a higher OBP than Jermaine Dye and his poor 2009 performance, was Michael Young.

oeo
10-15-2009, 05:07 PM
The only guy on the Rangers roster, which BTW, has a lot of veterans, who batted more than 160 times and had a higher OBP than Jermaine Dye and his poor 2009 performance, was Michael Young.

Why is OBP such a big part of this argument? Besides, JD's OBP of .340 is 2 points higher than his career. Not an off year, in fact, he showed a lot more patience than he ever has.

spawn
10-15-2009, 05:08 PM
1)The people that get paid to evaluate Walker's performance do not base his employability upon his performance, they base it on his loyalty to the organization and his ability to fit into the organizational mode.
Do you have proof to back up this assertion?

2)The White Sox were relatively injury free in 2009...one of the most injury free seasons on record, actually.
Really? PK missed games due to an injured thumb. getz missed games due to his oblique. TCQ missed a good portion of the season due to plantar fascitis(sp). Thome missed games due to recurring back problems.

3)As the 2009 season progressed, the issues were really not at the top and bottom of the lineup, where the two rookies resided....It was in the middle of the order, where we saw the same Greg Walker patented offense since 04'
You mean HR hitters trying to hit homeruns? And if Rudy were the hitting coach, how exactly would the results have been different?

Craig Grebeck
10-15-2009, 05:09 PM
Let me get this straight, you are telling someone they are wrong, yet you do this while admitting you don't know what the answer is?

How droll.

For your next trick can you pull an elephant out of a hat?
It's called nuance Daver. I'm not exactly certain about the difference between Walker and Jaramillo, but I'm guessing it's neither a gulf nor none at all -- which would be the two opinions expressed by the posters above. I have no problem saying that both of them are probably wrong. I think the answer is somewhere in the middle.

Zisk77
10-15-2009, 05:12 PM
All two of our inexperienced hitters?

Beckham...Nix...Getz...Alexei...Lilibridge...Field s... must be that new math.

Daver
10-15-2009, 05:12 PM
It's called nuance


Is that what they call a large steaming pile of crap now a days?

Craig Grebeck
10-15-2009, 05:14 PM
Is that what they call a large steaming pile of crap now a days?
Really? That's what you're going with? I'll just refrain from this childish argument and say, once again, that the answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

FielderJones
10-15-2009, 05:20 PM
the answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

Daver
10-15-2009, 05:29 PM
Really? That's what you're going with? I'll just refrain from this childish argument and say, once again, that the answer is probably somewhere in the middle.

Yeah, telling someone they are wrong because their opinion does not match the parameters of yours is a bit childish, I'm glad to see you realized this.

captain54
10-15-2009, 05:34 PM
Beckham...Nix...Getz...Alexei...Lilibridge...Field s... must be that new math.

Of the regular players, the only rookies in the lineup consistently were Getz and Beckham

captain54
10-15-2009, 05:40 PM
Do you have proof to back up this assertion?

Do YOU have proof that Walker doesn't get a free pass regardless of performance.?

Really? PK missed games due to an injured thumb. getz missed games due to his oblique. TCQ missed a good portion of the season due to plantar fascitis(sp). Thome missed games due to recurring back problems.

Compare it to the injuries the Rangers dealt with it.. C'mon

You mean HR hitters trying to hit homeruns? And if Rudy were the hitting coach, how exactly would the results have been different?

Speculation...who knows?....all I know is, it couldn't get any worse so why not roll the dice and see what happens.?

Pablo_Honey
10-15-2009, 06:39 PM
Speculation...who knows?....all I know is, it couldn't get any worse so why not roll the dice and see what happens.?
I was googling an article about Jaramillo and I found this article:
http://www.mackavenuetigers.com/home/2009/10/15/rangers-hitting-coach-rudy-jaramillo-hits-the-market-but-is.html

A few things to take note from this article:
1. Jaramillo is looking to hire Boras as his agent. Sox will NEVER sign him if Boras becomes his agent.

2. Jaramillo teaches hitters to be aggressive, and has not helped hitters to develop better plate discipline. That is not encouraging to hear about.

3. Read that paragraph by Rob Neyer on this argument. He nails it.

Yeah, changing a coach would be okay, but Jaramillo is looking for a big contract and his approach is not going to help an offense that is already full of fence swingers.

Zisk77
10-15-2009, 06:43 PM
Of the regular players, the only rookies in the lineup consistently were Getz and Beckham

You didn't say rookies or regulars you said inexperienced players. I believe Elvis Andrus was the only rookie regular in Texas line-up, no?

Its clearly a double standard you are evaluating Rudy and Greg with.

captain54
10-15-2009, 07:16 PM
You didn't say rookies or regulars you said inexperienced players. I believe Elvis Andrus was the only rookie regular in Texas line-up, no?



Julio Borbon, Elvis Andrus, Craig Gentry and few others with very limited MLB experience

Ranger
10-15-2009, 07:17 PM
Wrong....injuries and more players in the lineup playing their first full MLB season in 09'

"You had a lot of young kids that were inexperienced," Jaramillo said. "It was all mental. You saw mechanical issues, but the problem was trusting themselves at the big league level. They put pressure on themselves and they wanted to excel and the harder they tried, the tougher it got."

I won't even address this because a few other posters have already done so, but you're off base on this one.

So I'm just going to go ahead and say that both Rongey and OEO are wrong. The answer is somewhere in the middle, though I'm not sure if I'm pretty embarrassed/confused by Rongey's assertion that the hitting coach might as well not even exist.

You're embarrassed by lack of knowledge? You shouldn't be. It's OK to not know stuff, but when that's the case, you shouldn't be so confident in your opinions.

I guess I'll go ahead and defend my stance (even though I'm arguing against a strawman, because I never said a hitting coach shouldn't "exist"). So, for the 9,000th time: a number of people here are overvaluing the impact of a hitting coach, thus believing his effect is a lot greater than what reality dictates. He really is at the mercy of the personnel he's given.

Would you, then, like to try and answer the question I posed earlier? Why didn't Jaramillo prevent the Rangers from being a poor offensive club this past season? If, in fact, he has such a great influence?

1)The people that get paid to evaluate Walker's performance do not base his employability upon his performance, they base it on his loyalty to the organization and his ability to fit into the organizational mode.

False. You don't know what you're talking about. Why did Ozzie fire Tim Raines, then? There was loyalty there.

2)The White Sox were relatively injury free in 2009...one of the most injury free seasons on record, actually.

The injuries have been noted here already. You're wrong on this one too.

3)As the 2009 season progressed, the issues were really not at the top and bottom of the lineup, where the two rookies resided....It was in the middle of the order, where we saw the same Greg Walker patented offense since 04'

So you're saying if Rudy Jaramillo would've been here, Dye, Konerko, and Thome would've not been slow-footed home run hitters? I'm fascinated to know how he was going to make that happen.

Ranger
10-15-2009, 07:18 PM
Julio Borbon, Elvis Andrus, Craig Gentry and few others with very limited MLB experience

But Nix, Getz, Ramirez, Beckham are not inexperienced?

spawn
10-15-2009, 07:24 PM
Do YOU have proof that Walker doesn't get a free pass regardless of performance.?

Your answering a question with a question tells me you can't back up what you posted. I don't need to provide proof of anything, as i'm not the one throwing around allegations like you've done.

spawn
10-15-2009, 07:26 PM
Julio Borbon, Elvis Andrus, Craig Gentry and few others with very limited MLB experience
Jayson Nix, Gordon Beckham, Josh Fields, Brent Lillibridge, and Chris Getz have very limited experience as well.

captain54
10-15-2009, 07:31 PM
False. You don't know what you're talking about. Why did Ozzie fire Tim Raines, then? There was loyalty there.

Sorry Ranger, you"re apparently not really up on the history of the White Sox organization...Walker/Williams/Ozzie/Baines are all part of the core of the mid 80s Sox that will never be broken up. Raines came on in 91', not part of that group

The injuries have been noted here already. You're wrong on this one too.

Focus, Ranger....Focus.....we're comparing the White Sox injuries to the Texas Rangers injuries in 2009


So you're saying if Rudy Jaramillo would've been here, Dye, Konerko, and Thome would've not been slow-footed home run hitters? I'm fascinated to know how he was going to make that happen.

Who knows if Jaramillo or anyone else could make a difference? For the 9,000th time, it wouldn't hurt to try and see if someone else could make a difference, cause it certainly couldn't be any worse.

spawn
10-15-2009, 07:33 PM
Focus, Ranger....Focus.....we're comparing the White Sox injuries to the Texas Rangers injuries in 2009

So now you're resorting to the old "their injuries were worse than ours" argument to prove a point? Classic. The last time I checked, missed time due to injury is...well...missed time. :shrug:

Zisk77
10-15-2009, 07:37 PM
Julio Borbon, Elvis Andrus, Craig Gentry and few others with very limited MLB experience

Your kidding right? 46 games for Borbon & 11 for Gentry...they aren't regulars anymore than Lilibridge or Tyler Flowers. Heck Nix played way more and is inexperience and you disqualified him.

captain54
10-15-2009, 07:44 PM
So now you're resorting to the old "their injuries were worse than ours" argument to prove a point?

I'm not resorting to anything, just stating a fact. The Rangers had significant veteran injuries, and had to replace those players with rookies or inexperienced players.

captain54
10-15-2009, 07:47 PM
Your kidding right? 46 games for Borbon & 11 for Gentry...they aren't regulars anymore than Lilibridge or Tyler Flowers. Heck Nix played way more and is inexperience and you disqualified him.

Nix didn't replace a veteran in the lineup...neither did Lilibridge...I'll say it one more time...beside the stone cold rookies, there were other very inexperienced players that replaced injured veterans for Rangers in 2009.

I don't see what the big debate about this is...just look it up, gang.

Zisk77
10-15-2009, 07:51 PM
Lets analyze our past years hitting woes shall we:

Top of the order did pretty well - Pods hit over .300 and Beckham may be ROY but this is despite Walkers teaching.

Bottom of the order did pretty well sand the BA/Wise portion of the season. they can't hit because of Walker not because of their lack of talent.

A.J. hit 300
Alexie had a solid year after a horrendous start (improvement not attributed to Walker, just an anomaly).
Getz a decent rookie campaign
Both the top and bottom got pretty good at sacs, hit n running the and hitting behind the runner...must be what their teaching down on the farm.

And now the reason we sucked eggs: The middle of the line-up.

TCQ sucked because Walk ruined NOT because he was hurt.

Dye the man who was arguable our best hitter since arriving in 2005 through the first half of this year (non of which can be attributed to walker who was the hitting coach during that time). slumped the second half because Walk ruined him and not because he just may be done.

Thome's Back, knees, and feet were just excuses to take the pressure of Walker...age has nothing to do with this either.

Konerko - nice bounce back year for paulie, but not what he once was because of Walker.

If we just would have had Rudy last year his tears would have cured TCQ & Thome and served as a fountain of Youth for Dye and Paulie.

BA would still be our CF and His can't miss prospect status would have been realized.

I'm converted Fire Walker Hire Rudy can I get an Amen?!

dickallen15
10-15-2009, 07:52 PM
Julio Borbon, Elvis Andrus, Craig Gentry and few others with very limited MLB experience
You used inexperience as a reason Jaramillo's players failed this year. Borbon actually hit .312 in 157 AB. That's less ABs than Brian Anderson.Gentry played 11 games, and had 1 more AB than Tyler Flowers. These guys aren't the reason the Rangers offense fell apart.

It might actually shock you but the White Sox offense out hit Texas offense in 2004 and 2006, and the year in between they won a title. This year its about a draw. Texas had the advantage in 2007 and 2008, so for the full years Walker has been the hitting coach, he's actually about even with Jaramillo.

Zisk77
10-15-2009, 08:01 PM
Nix didn't replace a veteran in the lineup...neither did Lilibridge...I'll say it one more time...beside the stone cold rookies, there were other very inexperienced players that replaced injured veterans for Rangers in 2009.

I don't see what the big debate about this is...just look it up, gang.


OMG you just keep changing the criteria and rationalizing anyway you feel like it. And I did read your Original post. And if you want to split hairs Nix played second, SS, & 3b this replacing the following Vets Crede, Cabrera, & Uribe. Lililbridge played 2b and CF replacing Uribe and Griffey/Swisher/Wise.

c'mon this is comical. 1st they were inexperienced players....then they become rookies....then they became "stone cold rookies" who replaced veterans. Next they be dyslexic, agnostic, rookies with an astigmatism.:redneck

dickallen15
10-15-2009, 08:05 PM
OMG you just keep changing the criteria and rationalizing anyway you feel like it. And I did read your Original post. And if you want to split hairs Nix played second, SS, & 3b this replacing the following Vets Crede, Cabrera, & Uribe. Lililbridge played 2b and CF replacing Uribe and Griffey/Swisher/Wise.

c'mon this is comical. 1st they were inexperienced players....then they become rookies....then they became "stone cold rookies" who replaced veterans. Next they be dyslexic, agnostic, rookies with an astigmatism.:redneck

He knows his argument is weak. He is actually using a guy with 17 AB on the season as an inexperienced player that took Jaramillo's team's stats down. I would bet if Carlos Quentin was a Ranger and had the exact same years in 2008 and 2009 he had with the White Sox, captain would give Rudy all the credit for Quentin in 2008 and blame injury in 2009, but since its Walker, he gets no credit for 2008 and probably screwed him up in 2009.

The other thing is why is inexperience of players used as an excuse for Rudy but not for Walker. If anything the SS exceded expectations in Texas. Davis sucked but he came in with about as much "experience" as Josh Fields. Salty hits .230 and strikes out 97 times in 283 AB. This isn't what they were expecting when they got him from Atlanta in the Texiera deal. If anything, he was supposed to be a bigger stud than Tyler Flowers. Could you imagine the grief Walker will get on this board if a few years from now Flowers puts up the numbers Salty is putting up now? Texas relied on homers more than any other team and struck out more than any other team. Why? Personnel. Some of the guys on this board will never get it through their heads. What do they really expect Lillibridge to hit if Rudy was instructing him?

captain54
10-15-2009, 09:28 PM
He knows his argument is weak.

This all came to be because the Walker lovers keep hammering away at why the Rangers had a down 2009 offensively, completely ignoring the other 15 yrs and track record of success.

In another post, I quoted Jaramillo's explanation as to why the 2009 numbers may have been down. His explanation was that the Rangers used inexperienced players to cover the lineup holes caused by injured veterans. In my mind, this is a reasonable explanation.

So let me say this to all the Walker lovers...Your attempts to defend the record of Walker is laughable. Even more laughable is your attempt to compare Walker and Jaramillo. How in God's name anyone can say we'd be any worse off with someone like Jaramillo, other than Walker as a hitting coach in 2010, is truly beyond me.

Craig Grebeck
10-15-2009, 09:54 PM
Would you, then, like to try and answer the question I posed earlier? Why didn't Jaramillo prevent the Rangers from being a poor offensive club this past season? If, in fact, he has such a great influence?

And I will say that it's unfair to base your opinion of a hitting coach on one season. Like I said, I don't really feel THAT strongly one way or the other (though I would be heartened if this organization held Walker accountable, or someone at least), but I do feel it's foolish to just pick last season apart and leave the rest.

TDog
10-15-2009, 10:10 PM
I was googling an article about Jaramillo and I found this article:
http://www.mackavenuetigers.com/home/2009/10/15/rangers-hitting-coach-rudy-jaramillo-hits-the-market-but-is.html

A few things to take note from this article:
1. Jaramillo is looking to hire Boras as his agent. Sox will NEVER sign him if Boras becomes his agent.

2. Jaramillo teaches hitters to be aggressive, and has not helped hitters to develop better plate discipline. That is not encouraging to hear about.

3. Read that paragraph by Rob Neyer on this argument. He nails it.

Yeah, changing a coach would be okay, but Jaramillo is looking for a big contract and his approach is not going to help an offense that is already full of fence swingers.

I think this thread is hilarious because I see a total disconnect with reality and only glimpses of people caring about reality, but you have a couple of good points.

And I wonder if fans would really want to spend free agent money on someone who won't play in a single game in 2010, or any other years in his multi-year contract.

dickallen15
10-15-2009, 10:12 PM
This all came to be because the Walker lovers keep hammering away at why the Rangers had a down 2009 offensively, completely ignoring the other 15 yrs and track record of success.

In another post, I quoted Jaramillo's explanation as to why the 2009 numbers may have been down. His explanation was that the Rangers used inexperienced players to cover the lineup holes caused by injured veterans. In my mind, this is a reasonable explanation.

So let me say this to all the Walker lovers...Your attempts to defend the record of Walker is laughable. Even more laughable is your attempt to compare Walker and Jaramillo. How in God's name anyone can say we'd be any worse off with someone like Jaramillo, other than Walker as a hitting coach in 2010, is truly beyond me.
And you pointed out a guy with 17 AB. Your argument blows. Like Ranger said, if Jaramillo is the end all, there would never be a down season. Salty hasn't grown at all his 3 years. Blalock has been horrible. Chris Davis looks no better than Josh Fields. Andruw Jones, after everyone saying his career was revived by Rudy, hit .214 and Texas doesn't want him back. The grass isn't always greener. If you give Rudy bad hitters or hitters that have already peaked to work with, he won't make them better. What about the offensive stats since Walker has been the hitting coach. How do you account for the Sox being better offensively than Texas in 2004 and 2006 with a total fool coaching White Sox hitters and a total guru coaching Texas hitters.

Frater Perdurabo
10-15-2009, 10:35 PM
Jaramillo has had one bad year (2009) and many good years.

Walker has had one good year (2005) and many bad/inconsistent years.

Daver
10-15-2009, 10:39 PM
Jaramillo has had one bad year (2009) and many good years.

Walker has had one good year (2005) and many bad/inconsistent years.

What parameters are you using to define good and bad?

Please be specific.

captain54
10-15-2009, 11:18 PM
Andruw Jones, after everyone saying his career was revived by Rudy, hit .214 and Texas doesn't want him back.

What about the offensive stats since Walker has been the hitting coach. How do you account for the Sox being better offensively than Texas in 2004 and 2006 with a total fool coaching White Sox hitters and a total guru coaching Texas hitters.

You are very creative at twisting information.....

1)Andrew Jones was hurt most of the year...

2)The Sox BA was a couple of percentage points higher than Texas in 2006, and in 2004..... .002 difference, in fact.. Every other year, since Walker has been the hitting coach, Texas has had a better offensive year...including 2008, where Texas BA was 20 points higher than the Sox and scored about 100 more runs.

mantis1212
10-16-2009, 12:43 AM
Because you don't understand that this is not an "A + B = C" equation. This isn't "The Sox Offense Struggles" + "Greg Walker is the Hitting Coach" therefore "Greg Walker isn't a Good Hitting Coach."

It's a version of this argument that really bothers me as well as the rest of the "Walker's gotta go" crowd.

You've basically been saying that the performance of the offense is no reflection on the hitting coach, and that your average fan doesn't know a good hitting coach from a bad hitting coach.

Do you, as someone with more access than the rest of us, know he's a good hitting coach from what you've seen? Or are you just defending him because you know we DON'T know ****? How many other professional hitting coaches have you seen perform? Maybe there are some out there that actually have an impact. Like someone else posted, how much worse can it get?

I've said this before, but maybe they can strip the title "hitting coach" from him and call him the batting cage attendant. Then they can hire someone that actually impact MLB hitters. Does such a person exist?

Ranger
10-16-2009, 12:43 AM
Sorry Ranger, you"re apparently not really up on the history of the White Sox organization...Walker/Williams/Ozzie/Baines are all part of the core of the mid 80s Sox that will never be broken up. Raines came on in 91', not part of that group

That has nothing to do with anything. Ozzie considers Rock a friend. Those guys playing together has nothing to do with anything. There was a reason Raines got fired, and it wasn't because he was "an outsider." That's just incredibly ridiculous and I hope you know that.


Focus, Ranger....Focus.....we're comparing the White Sox injuries to the Texas Rangers injuries in 2009

One of us is clearly focused and it isn't you. Injuries are injuries. And injuries force weaker bench players to play every day.

The Sox lost Carlos Quentin for a significant amount of time this year. He would have been the MVP last season had he not gotten hurt then, too. That has a massive effect, wouldn't you say?


Who knows if Jaramillo or anyone else could make a difference? For the 9,000th time, it wouldn't hurt to try and see if someone else could make a difference, cause it certainly couldn't be any worse.

Yes, it absolutely COULD hurt. You don't understand this, and obviously never will. You don't fire a coach that the players like and respect based on PR. Players can turn on a manager in a hurry if they feel like someone is getting scapegoated. Especially if it's somebody they want around.

And, yes, it could be worse.


He knows his argument is weak.

Horribly weak.

And I will say that it's unfair to base your opinion of a hitting coach on one season. Like I said, I don't really feel THAT strongly one way or the other (though I would be heartened if this organization held Walker accountable, or someone at least), but I do feel it's foolish to just pick last season apart and leave the rest.

No, it isn't unfair if we're going to do it your way. The point is that if a hitting coach was as influential as some of you think he is, Rudy Jaramillo would NEVER oversee a subpar offense in ANY season. That's because he would be able to fix them every season.

Jaramillo has had one bad year (2009) and many good years.

Walker has had one good year (2005) and many bad/inconsistent years.


Nobody is questioning the product on the field or the results. The results are not debatable. But what the rational folks here are trying to say is that the relationship between hitting coach and outcome on the field is not as great as some here seem to think it is.

I, again, encourage anyone to find a person within the game of baseball that believes this offense is Walker's fault. It seems the people that know what they're talking about (those that truly understand the impact of his position) realize there is only so much he can do.

captain54
10-16-2009, 01:29 AM
But what the rational folks here are trying to say is that the relationship between hitting coach and outcome on the field is not as great as some here seem to think it is.

Well, then you just contradicted yourself...In the same post you said that hiring someone else and ditching Walker could make things worse offensively for the Sox cause it would piss off the players. I guess the players are shooting for the Sox to be the first team ever to hit below the .200 mark.

I, again, encourage anyone to find a person within the game of baseball that believes this offense is Walker's fault. It seems the people that know what they're talking about (those that truly understand the impact of his position) realize there is only so much he can do.

Let me ask you this Ranger....what makes you more of an "expert" than others on this board that post opinions? Because you seem to infer that you are the only one here that truly understands and your some kind baseball hitting guru.

You continually tap dance around one very simple issue, that doesnt take an "expert" to figure out. The White Sox were HORRIBLE offensively in 2009, and they have nothing to lose by trying a different offensive approach in 2010.

thedudeabides
10-16-2009, 02:16 AM
Jon Heyman of SI, is reporting the Cubs are in talks with Rudy Jaramillo, and he is expecting him to sign with the Cubs.

We'll see if he improves the Cubs hitting next year, if it happens.

I really think this argument has been misguided. Honestly, without personnel a hitting coach can't do well. It's tougher to measure in baseball. It's different in football where coordinators get paid to turn one side around, and it still depends on personnel. Look at Mike Martz. When he was running the greatest show on turf, he could do no wrong. He ran an offense with hall of fame caliber players at every important offensive position, and they were unstoppable. When he left that offense his career fizzled fast, and he cant even find a job. It's the same with hitting coaches in baseball.

Zisk77
10-16-2009, 08:05 AM
This all came to be because the Walker lovers keep hammering away at why the Rangers had a down 2009 offensively, completely ignoring the other 15 yrs and track record of success.

In another post, I quoted Jaramillo's explanation as to why the 2009 numbers may have been down. His explanation was that the Rangers used inexperienced players to cover the lineup holes caused by injured veterans. In my mind, this is a reasonable explanation.

So let me say this to all the Walker lovers...Your attempts to defend the record of Walker is laughable. Even more laughable is your attempt to compare Walker and Jaramillo. How in God's name anyone can say we'd be any worse off with someone like Jaramillo, other than Walker as a hitting coach in 2010, is truly beyond me.


Once again your are shifting what the issues are. I didn't compare Walker's Tenure With Rudy's and I never said Walk was better. In fact I said that Rudy was probably better. But you STILL are judging them with a double standard. Inexperience and injuries sabotaged last years Ranger campaign but not the sox? Pointing out how ridiculous that statement is doesn't make you a Walker lover or a believer that Walkers Tenure has been better than Jaramillo's.

The point of this whole thread is that some blame Walker for our hitting woes and want him canned.

Some, as RANGER points, believe its flawed logic to conclude that our offense is bad so fire the hitting coach.

Its funny how those who want walk gone can't point to single thing other than we don't hit to what Walk is personally doing wrong such as:

1. His philosphies are wrong (just what are his philosophies?)
2. He's lazy or incompetant.
3. Doesn't communicate well with players, etc.

And its probably a moot point as The Cubs will likely sign Jaramillo.

spawn
10-16-2009, 08:05 AM
Who knows if Jaramillo or anyone else could make a difference? For the 9,000th time, it wouldn't hurt to try and see if someone else could make a difference, cause it certainly couldn't be any worse.
So let's get this straight...Ozzie thinks Walker is doing a good job, as does KW. The players trust him, and don't believe he's at fault for the offensive struggles the last couple of years. Yet Sox management should fire him, although it may not make a difference, because...well, it wouldn't hurt. That's brilliant logic.

Frater Perdurabo
10-16-2009, 08:14 AM
What parameters are you using to define good and bad?

Please be specific.

The Rangers' offense has been quite productive for many years, other than 2009. Much of that is the players; part of that is the park (big gaps, jet stream); some of it was chemically-enhanced; but part of it also is Jaramillo.

The Sox offense has been inconsistent for many years, other than 2005. Much of that is the players; part of that is the park (small gaps, short fences); but part of it also is Walker.

Balfanman
10-16-2009, 08:36 AM
Didn't someone, Ranger maybe, post a while back about what the day to day duties of a hitting coach were? If someone knows where that was it would be a good read again.
I do think that it would be pretty hard in some cases to change a hitting style of a major league hitter who got where they are by hitting a certain way. I'm pretty sure that some of them have an ego that would prevent them from listening to someone who gets paid a miniscule amount compared to what they make.
I also think that it would be great to hear an interview of Greg Walker himself explaining some of the things that he does on a day to day basis. Lip may have done this already. I'm sure that he wouldn't mention any names, but I bet that he has players that he is frustrated with because they just won't listen.

kobo
10-16-2009, 10:10 AM
Nobody is questioning the product on the field or the results. The results are not debatable. But what the rational folks here are trying to say is that the relationship between hitting coach and outcome on the field is not as great as some here seem to think it is.

I, again, encourage anyone to find a person within the game of baseball that believes this offense is Walker's fault. It seems the people that know what they're talking about (those that truly understand the impact of his position) realize there is only so much he can do.
I think most people do understand that it's not all on Walker and that Walker is not the sole reason why the offense has performed the way it has over the years. Walker is a scapegoat, and is easy to single out because like I said in a previous post, it's easier to replace a coach than to replace a lineup.

I don't understand why those who are defending (for lack of a better word) Walker are content with him returning next year as the hitting coach. Not a single person has given one good reason why Walker should be back next year. It's disconcerting because it seems like people are settling for mediocrity, and that is just wrong.

thedudeabides
10-16-2009, 10:13 AM
The Rangers' offense has been quite productive for many years, other than 2009. Much of that is the players; part of that is the park (big gaps, jet stream); some of it was chemically-enhanced; but part of it also is Jaramillo.

The Sox offense has been inconsistent for many years, other than 2005. Much of that is the players; part of that is the park (small gaps, short fences); but part of it also is Walker.

What was consistent about 2005 offensively?

Frater, I think you need to look at the numbers. 2004, 2006, and 2008 the Sox were a better offense statistically. They were top five in the league in runs scored in all three of those seasons. 2005 was just a more balanced team, with very good pitching and defense.

Also, the Rangers offense has been consistently good at home. On the road they have been near the bottom of the league in average, OBP, and OPS the whole decade. You have to face the fact that the Ballpark in Anaheim is a hitters paradise, as others have mentioned. The infield is like blacktop and groundballs just fly through. This year, as per a Nolan Ryan request, the grounds crew grew out and thickened the grass as much as possible. Magically, the hitting numbers went down and the pitching numbers improved.

Also, are any of the people pining for Rudy familiar with his hitting philosophy, or are you just begging for a change, for the sake of change?

He preaches a widening of the stance, and a toe-tap method. This is to increase power. He stresses power over contact, and his approach is one of the most aggressive in baseball.

Nellie_Fox
10-16-2009, 11:23 AM
Not a single person has given one good reason why Walker should be back next year. It's disconcerting because it seems like people are settling for mediocrity, and that is just wrong.Because no one has explained just what Walker is doing wrong. Specifically.

That's because none of us know what he does or doesn't do, and I think that's pretty important in the decision to fire someone.

Daver
10-16-2009, 11:51 AM
The Rangers' offense has been quite productive for many years, other than 2009. Much of that is the players; part of that is the park (big gaps, jet stream); some of it was chemically-enhanced; but part of it also is Jaramillo.

The Sox offense has been inconsistent for many years, other than 2005. Much of that is the players; part of that is the park (small gaps, short fences); but part of it also is Walker.

And this information is affected how by the hitting coach?

Please be specific.

captain54
10-16-2009, 11:53 AM
So let's get this straight...Ozzie thinks Walker is doing a good job, as does KW. The players trust him, and don't believe he's at fault for the offensive struggles the last couple of years. Yet Sox management should fire him, although it may not make a difference, because...well, it wouldn't hurt. That's brilliant logic.

Anyone that is of the opinion that the hitting coach should be totally exonerated of any responsibility if the offense consistently struggles, and also should not be help accountable, because possibly, he is not given the right kind of players, should NOT be pointing fingers at someone else's logic.

oh, and of course everytime KW, Ozzie and players open their mouths to the media it's always, 100%, etched in stone fact....

thedudeabides
10-16-2009, 12:21 PM
Anyone that is of the opinion that the hitting coach should be totally exonerated of any responsibility if the offense consistently struggles, and also should not be help accountable, because possibly, he is not given the right kind of players, should NOT be pointing fingers at someone else's logic.

oh, and of course everytime KW, Ozzie and players open their mouths to the media it's always, 100%, etched in stone fact....

I don't see anyone completely exonerating Walker at all.

Please show me where the offense has consistantly struggled? In 2004, 2006, and 2008 the Sox were near the top in runs scored in the AL, and they won a world series in 2005. 2007 and 2009 were poor offensive years, nobody is questioning that. What is consistantly bad about that? Please use specific examples.

Also, tell me what Jaramillo does so much better than Walker. What is it about his approach you like? Be specific, or just admit you want change for the sake of change.

spawn
10-16-2009, 12:32 PM
Anyone that is of the opinion that the hitting coach should be totally exonerated of any responsibility if the offense consistently struggles, and also should not be help accountable, because possibly, he is not given the right kind of players, should NOT be pointing fingers at someone else's logic.

oh, and of course everytime KW, Ozzie and players open their mouths to the media it's always, 100%, etched in stone fact....

I don't see anyone completely exonerating Walker at all.

That's because no one is. I'd love for captain54 to go do a search and post where I've completely exonerated Walker for the offense. I've said all along I believe the hitters themselves should get the bulk of the responsibilty for their failures.

oh, and of course everytime KW, Ozzie and players open their mouths to the media it's always, 100%, etched in stone fact....
Well, I'll take what they say over the conspiracy theory you are expounding on that as long as you're part of the inner circle, your job is safe. And since you don't have anything to back that up, of course you're going to say that KW, Ozzie and the players aren't being honest. I mean, if paul Konerko and Aaron Rownad say thaey believe in Greg Walker as a hitting coach, then obviously they are lying becasue it wouldn't fit into your belief of Walker as a failure.

dickallen15
10-16-2009, 12:50 PM
Carney Lansford was canned as the hitting coach in SF. It seems the SF offense was put together similarly to the White Sox offense. He had some interesting comments about a line-up full of free swingers.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/10/16/SP3H1A6EGP.DTL

captain54
10-16-2009, 01:12 PM
Please show me where the offense has consistantly struggled

Not being able to hit against opponents whom the team has not seen before

Not being able to hit to the right side in order to move runners from second to third

Not being able to bring in runners from third with less than two outs

Not being able to hit on Sundays

Not being able to hit in domes

Scoring 10+ runs one game, then being shut out two games in a row

In 2009, not being able to come back and score runs in the later innings

Not being able to mount any kind of offensive attack other than a two-three run homers

Not being able to hit unless Ozzie calls the team out and insults them

Not being able to hit unless they are wearing the black unis and their pants have been properly laundered.

Not being able hit because the moon is full and the moonlight reflects weirdly

Zisk77
10-16-2009, 01:20 PM
Carney Lansford was canned as the hitting coach in SF. It seems the SF offense was put together similarly to the White Sox offense. He had some interesting comments about a line-up full of free swingers.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/10/16/SP3H1A6EGP.DTL

I was listening to the score the other day while going to lunch and they were interviewing someone from the giants organization (not sure who as I caught it midinterview and was back at work before it ended). He basically said it was not anything Carney did or did not do...in fact they thought he was good...they just thought they try a new voice. Basically he was the scapegoat.

dickallen15
10-16-2009, 01:21 PM
Not being able to hit against opponents whom the team has not seen before

Not being able to hit to the right side in order to move runners from second to third

Not being able to bring in runners from third with less than two outs

Not being able to hit on Sundays

Not being able to hit in domes

Scoring 10+ runs one game, then being shut out two games in a row

In 2009, not being able to come back and score runs in the later innings

Not being able to mount any kind of offensive attack other than a two-three run homers

Not being able to hit unless Ozzie calls the team out and insults them

Not being able to hit unless they are wearing the black unis and their pants have been properly laundered.

Not being able hit because the moon is full and the moonlight reflects weirdly

So Walker does something to make them not hit on Sundays, and they can't hit pitchers they haven't seen before. Why aren't you calling for the advanced scout to makes the scouting report to lose their job? According to you, the Sox struggles have nothing to do with personnel, just the hitting coach. Read what you wrote. If you really believe what you wrote is Walker's fault, you should be performing at Zanie's. Its comedy gold.

mantis1212
10-16-2009, 01:22 PM
Not being able to hit against opponents whom the team has not seen before

I thought I read one of the hitting coach's responsibilities (if there is such a thing as "a hitting coach's responsbility") was to prepare the hitters for the different pitchers they are facing.

If there was any peice of evidence that Walker failed at his job, I'd say this was it.

dickallen15
10-16-2009, 01:22 PM
I was listening to the score the other day while going to lunch and they were interviewing someone from the giants organization (not sure who as I caught it midinterview and was back at work before it ended). He basically said it was not anything Carney did or did not do...in fact they thought he was good...they just thought they try a new voice. Basically he was the scapegoat.

The article mentioned he was pretty gruff and that coincidentally is what cost Gary Ward and Walt Hriniak their gigs with the White Sox. I'm totally against scapegoats. It doesn't solve the problem.

captain54
10-16-2009, 01:35 PM
According to you, the Sox struggles have nothing to do with personnel

According to you, every coach and every manager of every team that doesn't have a $200 mill dollar payroll like the Yankees, and fails to get to the promised land, or even make the playoffs at the end of the year can just use the excuse..."sorry, oh well, just didn't have the horses"

Daver
10-16-2009, 01:39 PM
According to you, every coach and every manager of every team that doesn't have a $200 mill dollar payroll like the Yankees, and fails to get to the promised land, or even make the playoffs at the end of the year can just use the excuse..."sorry, oh well, just didn't have the horses"

According to you every team that doesn't make the playoffs should fire the coaching staff.

Broad pointless generalities work both ways.

captain54
10-16-2009, 01:40 PM
So Walker does something to make them not hit on Sundays, and they can't hit pitchers they haven't seen before.

I'm not saying he's doing something to make them not perform, but what ever he's doing to try to make or help them perform is not working.

captain54
10-16-2009, 01:45 PM
Broad pointless generalities work both ways.

Not a broad pointless generality, my man, but the essence of the Walker Lover argument.

"Don't hold me accountable for my performance until I have the proper talent"

dickallen15
10-16-2009, 01:48 PM
According to you, every coach and every manager of every team that doesn't have a $200 mill dollar payroll like the Yankees, and fails to get to the promised land, or even make the playoffs at the end of the year can just use the excuse..."sorry, oh well, just didn't have the horses"
Not at all. Walker took over in the middle of 2003. Konerko credits him for getting him back on track. In 2004 they had a top 4 offense. Then they changed personnel. In 2005, you can complain but the Sox won it all. In 2006, they made changes and were in the top 5 again. 2007 was a disaster. 2008 they were better and this past year with an aging core and some injuries, they struggled. When you have station to station sluggers who when they get on base will require 3 hits often times to score them, your run scoring is going to be very inconsistent. As the White Sox start adding a little more speed, you will see more consistent results, even with Walker as their coach. If the Sox were in the basement of the AL in most categories year after year, or even a few years in a row with no extenuating circumstances, a new voice might be in order, but the players seem to like working with him. He supposedly works his butt off. Dye, Konerko, Quentin are pretty good examples of successful hitters that had some problems before Walker. Even Thome came to Chicago because of injury and put up some good numbers. If you recall when he signed his contract originally, the talk was there was no way he would last the entire length of the contract, and that was before the final year vested. Really, the only veteran guy who came to the White Sox the past several years and definitely underperformed according to a level you can reasonably expect from him is Nick Swisher, and he paid no attention to Walker anyway.

Daver
10-16-2009, 01:49 PM
Not a broad pointless generality, my man, but the essence of the Walker Lover argument.

"Don't hold me accountable for my performance until I have the proper talent"
Sorry, it's difficult to keep track since you keep changing the points of contention with each post to hide the fact that your stance is based on fire him just because without showing any tangible evidence of him not doing his job.

captain54
10-16-2009, 01:57 PM
Sorry, it's difficult to keep track since you keep changing the points of contention with each post to hide the fact that your stance is based on fire him just because without showing any tangible evidence of him not doing his job.

I just posted and pointed out about 10 glaring offensive deficiencies...maybe you didn't get a chance to read it.

Daver
10-16-2009, 02:01 PM
I just posted and pointed out about 10 glaring offensive deficiencies...maybe you didn't get a chance to read it.

Most of which have nothing to do with the position of hitting coach, but let's not something trivial like that stand in the way.

captain54
10-16-2009, 02:02 PM
As the White Sox start adding a little more speed, you will see more consistent results, even with Walker as their coach.

there you go, getting creative with the facts again....the Sox did add more speed in 2009, and supposedly this was "Ozzie's Team"....turned out, this was the worst offensive year since Walker has been coach.

captain54
10-16-2009, 02:08 PM
Most of which have nothing to do with the position of hitting coach, but let's not something trivial like that stand in the way.

Okay...you've got me...I'm stumped, but you have cleared up the confusion...thank you.

Got it.. Greg Walker is really not responsible for much ... from now on, though, can we (in order to further clear up the confusion) please refer to Mr. Walker as (as one other poster alluded to) the Senior Batting Cage Attendant, rather than the Hitting Coach.

Nellie_Fox
10-16-2009, 02:15 PM
Why does everything have to be framed in terms of polar opposites? If you don't agree that Walker should be fired, then you're a Walker lover. How about the possibility that I simply don't know enough about what Walker does or does not do to demand his firing?

Non-performance of his players is simply not enough for me. I want to know how the non-performance is his responsibility. For example, this board (and my classroom) is loaded with people who can't/won't capitalize, punctuate or spell correctly, compose a sentence properly, etc. Now, I'm certain that they've all had teachers who have shown them the correct way. For whatever reason, they choose not to (or are unable to) follow what they've been taught.

By the logic of many here, all of their grammar-school and high-school teachers should be fired, using the poor performance of their students as proof that they are poor teachers. It is probable that some are poor teachers; it's equally probable that many are fine teachers, with students who won't/can't perform.

dickallen15
10-16-2009, 02:17 PM
there you go, getting creative with the facts again....the Sox did add more speed in 2009, and supposedly this was "Ozzie's Team"....turned out, this was the worst offensive year since Walker has been coach.
Not really. Quentin was hurt. Konerko, Thome, Dye, AJP can't run at all. Wise, Lillibridge, Nix, Fields and BA can't get on base and haven't been able to anywhere they have played. Corky Miller batted 6th in a game. Brent Lillibridge and DeWayne Wise and Jayson Nix led off major league games, the heart of the line-up is getting very old, and you are saying the problem is the hitting coach when the team doesn't score runs? Does Walker get any credit for Pods? You would be praising Rudy if Pods had the same year in Texas.

russ99
10-16-2009, 02:30 PM
I'd love to see the Sox hire Rudy Jaramillo as hitting coach, but there's two problems with him coming here:

1) Walker's back for 2010.
2) Jaramillo is represented by Scott Boras.

Walker does deserve one more chance for his work with the younger players this season but if another (3rd by my count) batch of players shows dramatic decreases in hitting performance, then he needs to go or Oz will end up getting fired. You can only blame the players for the seemingly constant failings of a team to produce for so long.

captain54
10-16-2009, 02:49 PM
How about the possibility that I simply don't know enough about what Walker does or does not do to demand his firing?

I admit that I don't know what Walker does on a daily basis in his function as the hitting coach, I do though, watch every game, every season, for many seasons now, and it's not that hard to see that the offensive results are not really there, especially in 2009. why is it such a crime to even suggest that the hitting coach might possibly be the problem?


By the logic of many here, all of their grammar-school and high-school teachers should be fired, using the poor performance of their students as proof that they are poor teachers. It is probable that some are poor teachers; it's equally probable that many are fine teachers, with students who won't/can't perform.

I don't really think this is a good analogy because in the case of the hitting coach issue, we are talking about professional athletes, who are paid millions to perform, and are where they are because they are and have been among the creme de la creme at what they do.

And in the case of professional hitters, it might be just one small tweak here or there that a coach can spot to turn things around for that player. I'm not inferring that Walker isn't trying to spot those things, but to suggest that maybe he's just not as capable at it as others.

Why is it that some players thrive on one team, and then fail miserably on another?

thedudeabides
10-16-2009, 02:51 PM
Not being able to hit against opponents whom the team has not seen before

Not being able to hit to the right side in order to move runners from second to third

Not being able to bring in runners from third with less than two outs

Not being able to hit on Sundays

Not being able to hit in domes

Scoring 10+ runs one game, then being shut out two games in a row

In 2009, not being able to come back and score runs in the later innings

Not being able to mount any kind of offensive attack other than a two-three run homers

Not being able to hit unless Ozzie calls the team out and insults them

Not being able to hit unless they are wearing the black unis and their pants have been properly laundered.

Not being able hit because the moon is full and the moonlight reflects weirdly

These are broad generalities. What you've said can be applied to every team in baseball.

I asked before, and I will ask one more time, not expecting a straight answer, what is it about Walker's approach or preperation you don't like? What is it about Jaramillo's that you do like?

I would like examples, players he has failed, or have gotten worse under him. Players that have left him and gone on to do great things. The fact that the Sox offense has been succesfull, on the most important levels, in all but 2 of his seasons here. Stuff like that. The players and management trust him. What is it that you don't trust?

Oh, and if your looking for a coach to teach how to hit behind runners, sacrifice, situational hitting, stop pulling for power, then you know nothing about Rudy Jaramillo, and his approach.

spawn
10-16-2009, 03:20 PM
I'm not saying he's doing something to make them not perform, but what ever he's doing to try to make or help them perform is not working.
So, you have no idea what he's doing to make the players perform, but whatever it is it isn't working, but you don't know what it is or what his approach is. You just know it isn't working.He should be fired, just because it couldn't hurt...because whatever he's doing (that you freely admit you don't know he's doing) isn't working.:scratch:




Got it.

captain54
10-16-2009, 03:30 PM
.because whatever he's doing isn't working.:scratch:


yes...there ya go...whatever Greg Walker is doing is not working....

very simple....need it spelled out any clearer?

spawn
10-16-2009, 03:32 PM
yes...there ya go...whatever Greg Walker is doing is not working....

very simple....need it spelled out any clearer?
But you don't know what he's doing...so how can you know it isn't working? Or do the players have no responsbility to put into action whatever he's trying to teach them? So, you know for a fact that the players are putting into action what he's trying to show them?

captain54
10-16-2009, 03:33 PM
These are broad generalities. What you've said can be applied to every team in baseball.



ummmm....no, not really....if it could be applied, then every team would have the same miserable offensive numbers the Sox had in 2009, which they do not

captain54
10-16-2009, 03:37 PM
But you don't knowwhat he's doing...so how can you know it isn't working?

I ask a guy to fix my leaking roof. I pay him money to go up there and fix it.
the next day, it rains, and it still leaks. I don't need to get a ladder to go up on the roof to know that I need to call him back and have him do the job the right way.

spawn
10-16-2009, 03:39 PM
I ask a guy to fix my leaking roof. I pay him money to go up there and fix it.
the next day, it rains, and it still leaks. I don't to get a ladder to go up on the roof to know that I need to call him back and have him do the job the right way.
Ridiculous analogy...and you still haven't answered my question.

captain54
10-16-2009, 03:45 PM
Ridiculous analogy...and you still haven't answered my question.

Perfect analogy...I can't answer your question intelligently because it doesn't make any sense.

Does Reinsdorf sit in the dugout everyday with Ozzie to watch exactly what he's doing every step of the way in this managerial responsiblities..? Or sit on the bench every game with Vinny del Negro.

C'mon, my friend...let's have an intelligent discussion.

thedudeabides
10-16-2009, 03:46 PM
ummmm....no, not really....if it could be applied, then every team would have the same miserable offensive numbers the Sox had in 2009, which they do not

Like the Rangers?

What about the successfull years Walker has had. 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008?

I've asked several times, and this is the last. What about Walkers approach do you not like? Jaramillo's you do like?

I've already given up on the examples I've asked for, as you clearly don't have any, otherwise you would answer the questions I have posed.

I'm not trying to argue with you, I just want to know why you are so adament that one is a great hitting coach, and one is a bad hitting coach.

Saracen
10-16-2009, 03:50 PM
Jaramillo is terrible. It's all or nothing, swing for the fences every year. What do IRod, Ruben Sierra, Juan Gonzalez, Gary Matthews Jr, A-Rod all have in common? Steroids. Real hard to put up big numbers with the drugs happening in that locker room during Rudy's tenure.

It's been a matter of constant debate in Texas as to if this guy is any good or not. The Rangers typically have tons of homers yet no situational or contact hitting. I lean on the Jaramillo blows side.

captain54
10-16-2009, 03:54 PM
What about the successfull years Walker has had. 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008?


Offensively, 06 was okay...I don't know what was so successful about the other years though...offensively speaking, that is.

I've asked several times, and this is the last. What about Walkers approach do you not like? Jaramillo's you do like?

It's really silly to keep badgering me and trying to back me into a corner, because if you're really fair, you don't have any more specifics as to why you like Walker as a coach..

spawn
10-16-2009, 03:57 PM
I've asked several times, and this is the last. What about Walkers approach do you not like? Jaramillo's you do like?

He has proven he doesn't like answering questions he doesn't have answers for.

spawn
10-16-2009, 04:02 PM
Perfect analogy...I can't answer your question intelligently because it doesn't make any sense.

It's an easy question to answer really. Do you know the approach Walker is trying to show the players to take? If you can't answer that question, then you can't possibly know if they are going up and taking the approach he's showing them.

And your analogy was ridiculous. Nellie's analogy was right on the money. In yours, I'm assuming you're Ozzie/KW, Walker is the "guy", and the leaking roof is the offense. An offense is composed of individual players. A leaky roof is composed of inanimate objects. To fix the leaky roof, you would have to replace the shingles. You can't teach a leaky roof anything.Your analogy is pretty stupid.

captain54
10-16-2009, 04:04 PM
He has proven he doesn't like answering questions he doesn't have answers for.

because the question is useless and meaningless.

I don't have to know what Walker does, what I like or don't like, etc...to know that the Sox SUCK offensively...

OMG....whatever

spawn
10-16-2009, 04:05 PM
because the question is useless and meaningless.

Only because you can't answer it.

I don't have to know what Walker does, what I like or don't like, etc...to know that the Sox SUCK offensively...

Wow...ok. :rolling:

TDog
10-16-2009, 04:12 PM
These are broad generalities. What you've said can be applied to every team in baseball. ...

Oh, and if your looking for a coach to teach how to hit behind runners, sacrifice, situational hitting, stop pulling for power, then you know nothing about Rudy Jaramillo, and his approach.

The first paragraph was a point I wax going to make. You could even say many of these things about the Rangers, who have been no-hit under Jaramillo's watch. The last paragraph simply caps a well thought out post.

The fact is, I like Greg Walker, which destroys my credibility in the minds of some. He is a good man, and I would hate to see him lose his job because the Sox needed to make change the sake of change. And I don't believe that is going to happen. I'm not giving Walker a free pass. I thought Jerry Manuel by all accounts was a good man, and I rejoiced at his firing. I could see that helping the team.

Often hitting coaches are fired by general managers who should be firing the manager, but don't want to go that far. That was probably the case with the Cubs during the season and at the end of the season. That was probably the case the first time Von Joshua was fired by a Chicago baseball team. Sometimes managers go to general managers to have their hitting coaches fired to deflect criticism of their own job. People can see what managers do, but a hitting coach's success can be even vaguer than a pitching coach's success because bad pitching coaches sometimes leave a team of injured pitchers in their wake.

The point of this thread is moot, of course, as I have already noted. Walker will return to the Sox in 1010. Rudy Jaramillo will sign elsewhere and probably disappoint fans who will expect too much.

And WSI will be littered with posters demanding the firing of Greg Walker.

Frater Perdurabo
10-16-2009, 04:16 PM
Oh, and if your looking for a coach to teach how to hit behind runners, sacrifice, situational hitting, stop pulling for power, then you know nothing about Rudy Jaramillo, and his approach.

Some say it's not the job of the hitting coach to teach those things. I teach history at the college level, but I frequently find myself teaching grammar. It's not in my job description, but I do it anyway because it needs to be done.

As players, both Guillen and Cora were decent bunters and could pull off a sacrifice and/or hit behind the runner. Why can't they teach/coach those things? Every year Ozzie says he plans to do so, shows off how to lay down a sacrifice bunt, makes the players practice it for a day or two, then quietly drops it. Maybe it's not in his job description, and I'm sure we all agree that players should already know how to execute the fundamentals and it should not have to be taught at the MLB level. But each year Ozzie says he's going to do it. So why doesn't he keep his word and really do it?

Jaramillo's approach is to maximize each player's ability to square up to the ball with a level swing and drive it as hard as possible. That's the way to get the most power on the ball, not swinging from the heels with an uppercut and trying to pull the ball, as many Sox hitters often find themselves doing. That approach often leads to ground outs (when your bat hits the top of the ball) or popouts (when the bat hits the bottom of the ball).

Hriniak was criticized for being to inflexible to coach hitters for whom his style didn't work well. I think Walker is the opposite; he seems to be too flexible. I seem to remember reading that for all of 2006, Walker let Brian Anderson do his own thing and keep swinging long and swinging at crap in the dirt. Or look at Juan Uribe. When Frank Thomas was around in 2004 and parts of 2005, Uribe shortened his swing and hit for higher average without sacrificing power. Why couldn't/didn't Walker get Uribe to keep doing that after Thomas was gone? That tells me right there that for Uribe at least, the Big Hurt was a much better hitting coach than Walker. Tadahito Iguchi was solid in 2005 and 2006, but seemed to regress in 2007. That seems to indicate Iguchi lost some of the discipline that he had previously possessed. A better hitting coach would have encouraged Iguchi to keep practicing the same disciplines and drills he brought with him from Japan.

It's a moot point, since Jaramillo isn't coming to the Sox, but I think he is someone who could maximize the results that Beckham and Quentin get, because both of them hit the ball very hard and are at their best when they are hitting the ball on a line up the middle.

Nellie_Fox
10-16-2009, 04:20 PM
I don't really think this is a good analogy because in the case of the hitting coach issue, we are talking about professional athletes, who are paid millions to perform, and are where they are because they are and have been among the creme de la creme at what they do.

I ask a guy to fix my leaking roof. I pay him money to go up there and fix it.
the next day, it rains, and it still leaks. I don't need to get a ladder to go up on the roof to know that I need to call him back and have him do the job the right way.Really? You're going to say that my analogy of a teacher and students is bad, while your analogy a roofer and shingles is good? Seriously?

One is someone trying to teach humans, who may not be able or willing to do what they're being taught. The other is a roof; you've either repaired the holes or you haven't. But you're going to say that a roof is more like hitters than students are. Okay.

I've done some coaching. There were times that I've suggested an approach, only to have the athlete try it once and immediately abandon it because "it didn't feel right," or "I didn't like it." I suppose it was then my fault that they continued doing what I told them was causing their problem?

thedudeabides
10-16-2009, 04:22 PM
Offensively, 06 was okay...I don't know what was so successful about the other years though...offensively speaking, that is.



It's really silly to keep badgering me and trying to back me into a corner, because if you're really fair, you don't have any more specifics as to why you like Walker as a coach..

In 2004 the Sox were 3rd in the league in runs, 2006 they were 3rd, and 2008 they were 5th. 2009 the Sox won the World Series. That's 4 out of Walkers 6 seasons here I would view as a success, offensively. 2007 and 2009 were bad. I think injuries and personell explain the drop those years fairly well. It's not to let him off the hook for those seasons, but to me it isn't entirely on him.

In my eyes he has had more success than failure. I have seen a lot of players do well under his tutelage. I watched Iguchi come over from Japan and make a very successful transition. I watched Alexei come over from Cuba and make a successful transition. Both were able to adjust to a more difficult league rather quickly, not an easy task. I watched Quentin and Beckham explode into the league under Walker. I saw steady improvement out of Joe Crede and Aaron Rowand while they were here. Konerko revived his career and Dye had his best years here. I watched Scott Posednik twice revive his career under Walker. These are just some examples off the top of my head.

I can't think of one player that has failed under him, and then gone on to do well elsewhere. I may be missing someone, but it certainly isn't a trend.

I don't give Walker credit for all of this, but he had his hand in it.

I'm not trying to take away anything from Rudy Jaramillo as he is a well respected hitting coach. He has also been in a very good situation, in a hitters park, with a lot of talent, some aided by supplements. Give Walker his tenure and I'm sure his list of hitters will be nearly as impressive.

Jaramillo preaches power over contact and has a very aggressive approach. He does not sit back and preach fundamental situational hitting. I would be fine if the Sox hired him, but you would see much of the same all or nothing. His approach is probably more all or nothing than Walker's.

These are the reasons why I think firing Walker is unnecessary, and why I think he would be a scapegoat. I'm not a huge fan of his or anything, I just don't think he has done anything to be let go and I don't value a hitting coach nearly as much as others on here do.

I'm not trying to badger you, I'm looking for answers why you think he should be replaced? I have given you my reasons why I don't think he should, it's your turn.

thedudeabides
10-16-2009, 04:41 PM
Some say it's not the job of the hitting coach to teach those things. I teach history at the college level, but I frequently find myself teaching grammar. It's not in my job description, but I do it anyway because it needs to be done.

As players, both Guillen and Cora were decent bunters and could pull off a sacrifice and/or hit behind the runner. Why can't they teach/coach those things? Every year Ozzie says he plans to do so, shows off how to lay down a sacrifice bunt, makes the players practice it for a day or two, then quietly drops it. Maybe it's not in his job description, and I'm sure we all agree that players should already know how to execute the fundamentals and it should not have to be taught at the MLB level. But each year Ozzie says he's going to do it. So why doesn't he keep his word and really do it?

Jaramillo's approach is to maximize each player's ability to square up to the ball with a level swing and drive it as hard as possible. That's the way to get the most power on the ball, not swinging from the heels with an uppercut and trying to pull the ball, as many Sox hitters often find themselves doing. That approach often leads to ground outs (when your bat hits the top of the ball) or popouts (when the bat hits the bottom of the ball).

Hriniak was criticized for being to inflexible to coach hitters for whom his style didn't work well. I think Walker is the opposite; he seems to be too flexible. I seem to remember reading that for all of 2006, Walker let Brian Anderson do his own thing and keep swinging long and swinging at crap in the dirt. Or look at Juan Uribe. When Frank Thomas was around in 2004 and parts of 2005, Uribe shortened his swing and hit for higher average without sacrificing power. Why couldn't/didn't Walker get Uribe to keep doing that after Thomas was gone? That tells me right there that for Uribe at least, the Big Hurt was a much better hitting coach than Walker. Tadahito Iguchi was solid in 2005 and 2006, but seemed to regress in 2007. That seems to indicate Iguchi lost some of the discipline that he had previously possessed. A better hitting coach would have encouraged Iguchi to keep practicing the same disciplines and drills he brought with him from Japan.

It's a moot point, since Jaramillo isn't coming to the Sox, but I think he is someone who could maximize the results that Beckham and Quentin get, because both of them hit the ball very hard and are at their best when they are hitting the ball on a line up the middle.

I'm familiar with Jaramillo's approach and he has had some of the same complaints as Hriniak. He has a distinct style that doesn't translate to everyone. Now, he has shown more flexibility than Hriniak, but from what I understand a lot of people in Texas were getting tired of him. His approach may not stress lift and pull, but his idea is very similar in the results it produces. His approach can also lack patience, which is something the Sox need to improve on. Again, take a look at how poor the Rangers have hit on the road this decade. They are near the bottom in nearly every important category.

I think Walkers flexibility is his best trait. Hitters are all very different and he allows each to improve upon their strengths. I'm not a huge Walker supporter, but I think he has done well here and there is no reason he needs to go. If Brian Anderson and Juan Uribe are his biggest dissapointments, I can certainly live with that.

I think Iguchi is a bad example and I view him as a success under Walker. He made an excellent transition to this league. He started digressing as his skills diminished, as evidence by his lack of success in San Diego, under different hitting coaches, and then subsequently being out of the league.

captain54
10-16-2009, 05:20 PM
Only because you can't answer it.

Wow...ok. :rolling:

your witty one word or two word retorts and ability to put little clever avatars in your posts have proven to me that you, by far, not only know more about baseball than me, but are my intellectual superior.

sorry to have disagreed with you

spawn
10-16-2009, 05:26 PM
your witty one word or two word retorts and ability to put little clever avatars in your posts have proven to me that you, by far, not only know more about baseball than me, but are my intellectual superior.

sorry to have disagreed with you
Glad you've finally seen the light. :thumbsup:

captain54
10-16-2009, 05:38 PM
Glad you've finally seen the light. :thumbsup:

As a matter of fact, I'm thinking of naming my next child either Spawn or Walker...

Daver
10-16-2009, 05:51 PM
As a matter of fact, I'm thinking of naming my next child either Spawn or Walker...

Both would be a good call, even if it's a girl.

Nellie_Fox
10-17-2009, 01:04 AM
As a matter of fact, I'm thinking of naming my next child either Spawn or Walker...

Both would be a good call, even if it's a girl.Hell, why quibble? Go with "Walker Spawn."

soxinem1
10-17-2009, 09:06 AM
In 2004 the Sox were 3rd in the league in runs, 2006 they were 3rd, and 2008 they were 5th. 2009 the Sox won the World Series. That's 4 out of Walkers 6 seasons here I would view as a success, offensively. 2007 and 2009 were bad. I think injuries and personell explain the drop those years fairly well. It's not to let him off the hook for those seasons, but to me it isn't entirely on him.

In my eyes he has had more success than failure. I have seen a lot of players do well under his tutelage. I watched Iguchi come over from Japan and make a very successful transition. I watched Alexei come over from Cuba and make a successful transition. Both were able to adjust to a more difficult league rather quickly, not an easy task. I watched Quentin and Beckham explode into the league under Walker. I saw steady improvement out of Joe Crede and Aaron Rowand while they were here. Konerko revived his career and Dye had his best years here. I watched Scott Posednik twice revive his career under Walker. These are just some examples off the top of my head.

I can't think of one player that has failed under him, and then gone on to do well elsewhere. I may be missing someone, but it certainly isn't a trend.

I don't give Walker credit for all of this, but he had his hand in it.

I'm not trying to take away anything from Rudy Jaramillo as he is a well respected hitting coach. He has also been in a very good situation, in a hitters park, with a lot of talent, some aided by supplements. Give Walker his tenure and I'm sure his list of hitters will be nearly as impressive.

Jaramillo preaches power over contact and has a very aggressive approach. He does not sit back and preach fundamental situational hitting. I would be fine if the Sox hired him, but you would see much of the same all or nothing. His approach is probably more all or nothing than Walker's.

These are the reasons why I think firing Walker is unnecessary, and why I think he would be a scapegoat. I'm not a huge fan of his or anything, I just don't think he has done anything to be let go and I don't value a hitting coach nearly as much as others on here do.

I'm not trying to badger you, I'm looking for answers why you think he should be replaced? I have given you my reasons why I don't think he should, it's your turn.

This is pretty much my take on Walker as well. Well stated.

On the other hand, I cannot believe a thread on another teams hitting coach who will NOT be on the White Sox has over 200 posts.

southside rocks
10-17-2009, 10:14 AM
I ask a guy to fix my leaking roof. I pay him money to go up there and fix it.
the next day, it rains, and it still leaks. I don't need to get a ladder to go up on the roof to know that I need to call him back and have him do the job the right way.


You ask a guy to supervise a team of laborers to fix your leaking roof. They all go up on your roof and get to work.

The next day it rains, and your roof still leaks.

Who failed to do their job: the guy supervising, or the laborers? Both? Neither? How do you know, without going up there and looking, what was and wasn't done?

captain54
10-17-2009, 11:57 AM
You ask a guy to supervise a team of laborers to fix your leaking roof. They all go up on your roof and get to work.

The next day it rains, and your roof still leaks.

Who failed to do their job: the guy supervising, or the laborers? Both? Neither?

Probably a combination of both

How do you know, without going up there and looking, what was and wasn't done?

If I went up there, I'd probably have to start tearing things aparts to find out what the problem was, and at that point, I might as well have just done it myself. It would have defeated the purpose of hiring someone.

Ultimately, they would both have to fall on the sword, but the Walkerites are saying that the supervisor (Walker) does not need to be held accountable.

pmck003
10-17-2009, 12:52 PM
You ask a guy to supervise a team of laborers to fix your leaking roof. They all go up on your roof and get to work.

The next day it rains, and your roof still leaks.

Who failed to do their job: the guy supervising, or the laborers? Both? Neither? How do you know, without going up there and looking, what was and wasn't done?

This is more like they go up to fix the roof, get done and theres a tornado; the roof still leaks so you fire the supervisor.

Brian26
10-17-2009, 12:53 PM
Levine this morning said he expects the Cubs to sign Rudy in the next two weeks. If they don't, San Francisco or the Mets might make an offer to good to refuse.

captain54
10-17-2009, 01:41 PM
This is more like they go up to fix the roof, get done and theres a tornado; the roof still leaks so you fire the supervisor.

the flaw with this one is, you're assuming they "get done", and in the case of the White Sox offense over the last few years, for the most part, they have not "gotten it done"

pmck003
10-17-2009, 02:33 PM
the flaw with this one is, you're assuming they "get done", and in the case of the White Sox offense over the last few years, for the most part, they have not "gotten it done"

The Sox have been pretty good offensively since 2003. 2007 was real bad, 2009 was bad but I don't know if anyone could of made Dye/Quentin better.

I think everyone would like to see the Sox increase their avg/obp a bit so they might score more consistently, but looking at the Rangers since 2003 I dunno if Jaramillo would be a magic cure there:

http://www.bbtia.com/home/2009/10/15/remembering-the-rudy-jaramillo-era.html. (http://www.bbtia.com/home/2009/10/15/remembering-the-rudy-jaramillo-era.html)

Scroll down a bit and you'll see that the Rangers OBP from 2005-2009 is .337 vs. the Sox's .331.

Honestly if I had to pick between Walker and Jaramillo for the Sox, I would go with Jaramillo, but I don't see any justification in getting rid of Walker right now.

southside rocks
10-17-2009, 02:40 PM
Ultimately, they would both have to fall on the sword, but the Walkerites are saying that the supervisor (Walker) does not need to be held accountable.


But you don't know, without knowing how the job was done, how much accountability the supervisor in your roofing example actually has. What if the supervisor was lied to by a worker? Should the supervisor check every single nail that is driven by his workers? Isn't that doing the job twice? Supervisors don't do that, and we all know it.

If a supervisor willingly accepts shoddy work, then we fire the supervisor. If the supervisor is not able to get good work out the workers for one reason or another, then we fire the workers and give the supervisors better talent to work with.

Your analogy really doesn't hold up, that's all I'm saying.

And no, going up on the roof yourself doesn't mean that you might as well do the whole job yourself. What if the roofers fixed all the leaks, and during a storm in the night there is a new spot that is leaking? You don't know unless you know what work was done and not done.

captain54
10-17-2009, 03:28 PM
The Sox have been pretty good offensively since 2003. 2007 was real bad, 2009 was bad but I don't know if anyone could of made Dye/Quentin better.


06 was the only year in recent memory where the numbers are a good measure above average. That being said, if I remember correctly, the Sox still fell into the Walker-type offense, where they hit well for a while, then went to sleep.


Honestly if I had to pick between Walker and Jaramillo for the Sox, I would go with Jaramillo, but I don't see any justification in getting rid of Walker right now.


All I'm saying is, sometimes you need a fresh set of eyes, a different perspective. I think Walker himself would admit that at this point, he's stumped, as in the case of JD's horrible 2nd half. So why not see if we can get a different perspective, because at this point, it couldn't get any worse...

captain54
10-17-2009, 03:37 PM
If the supervisor is not able to get good work out the workers for one reason or another, then we fire the workers and give the supervisors better talent to work with.



So what if after 6 yrs in a row, you shuffle workers around trying to get the right combination, and yet, the results are pretty much the same...not only that, year #6 is the worst year ever. As some point, wouldn't you say, "hey maybe we better take a look at this supervisor"...?

For the millionth time...if you base the hitting coaches performance upon what kind of talent he has, then you are eliminating any standard of performance he has to measure up to, and have completely absolved him of any responsibility.

Daver
10-17-2009, 03:44 PM
06 was the only year in recent memory where the numbers are a good measure above average. That being said, if I remember correctly, the Sox still fell into the Walker-type offense, where they hit well for a while, then went to sleep.




All I'm saying is, sometimes you need a fresh set of eyes, a different perspective. I think Walker himself would admit that at this point, he's stumped, as in the case of JD's horrible 2nd half. So why not see if we can get a different perspective, because at this point, it couldn't get any worse...

Translation: I don't know what the job of hitting coach entails, and I have no idea if Greg is doing his job or not, but I want him fired so that it looks like the White Sox are taking steps to answer for a down offensive year whether it is the right thing to do or not.

captain54
10-17-2009, 04:17 PM
Translation: I don't know what the job of hitting coach entails, and I have no idea if Greg is doing his job or not,

If I was Walker's shadow and followed his every move, and could tell you exactly what he does every second of his life, it still wouldn't matter. The results are not there. So even if he is busting his ass and doing everything he possibly can do and fullfilling every aspect of his job (and most likely he is) for whatever reason, he hasn't gotten the job done. Coaches in every sport, in every level, have to pay the piper if the results are not there.

I'm sure Joe Torre knows exactly what he's doing as manager of a MLB club.
The Yankees probably know that too, but for some reason, they felt the results were not there and offered him an incentive laden contract, and in essence, a pay cut.

They held a manager who won 6 pennants and 4 World championships to a standard, but apparently the hitting coach for the White Sox, has no standard of performance and gets a free pass despite the results

but I want him fired so that it looks like the White Sox are taking steps to answer for a down offensive year whether it is the right thing to do or not.

Even though 09 sucked, the pattern has been evident since 04. So its not just last year that makes me think a different perspective is in order.

Zisk77
10-17-2009, 06:05 PM
06 was the only year in recent memory where the numbers are a good measure above average. That being said, if I remember correctly, the Sox still fell into the Walker-type offense, where they hit well for a while, then went to sleep.




All I'm saying is, sometimes you need a fresh set of eyes, a different perspective. I think Walker himself would admit that at this point, he's stumped, as in the case of JD's horrible 2nd half. So why not see if we can get a different perspective, because at this point, it couldn't get any worse...


Since JD probably won't be here next year, problem solved. We appear to be getiing rid of what the problem actually is....much to you chagrin.

captain54
10-17-2009, 08:08 PM
Since JD probably won't be here next year, problem solved. We appear to be getiing rid of what the problem actually is....much to you chagrin.

All the Walkerites need to tell me who the offensive problems are on the roster....if the Sox get rid of them and Walker then guides the Sox to a miraculous offensive turn around, I will come on the forum next year publicly apologize to each and every one of you.

pmck003
10-17-2009, 09:25 PM
All I'm saying is, sometimes you need a fresh set of eyes, a different perspective.

I agree with that but the responsibility falls on KW/Ozzie/whoever else in the club who is seeing what is going on. Without that type of knowledge there isn't an argument as to if Walker is doing a good job or not. I was for firing Walker before this was pointed out to me.

Its hard to know if things would get better with Jaramillo either; if you look at the last decade or so, both the Rangers and Sox have often relied on relatively lower ba/obp and a higher slugging percentage. I suppose its hard to relate numbers alone without discussing the talent/personnel involved, but things could get worse. Maybe a change wouldn't be good right now for guys like Beckham, Getz, and Quentin.

Zisk77
10-18-2009, 02:51 AM
All the Walkerites need to tell me who the offensive problems are on the roster....if the Sox get rid of them and Walker then guides the Sox to a miraculous offensive turn around, I will come on the forum next year publicly apologize to each and every one of you.

Who cares?

doublem23
10-18-2009, 09:47 AM
Greg Walker still sucks.

SI1020
10-18-2009, 11:25 AM
I'm sure Joe Torre knows exactly what he's doing as manager of a MLB club.
The Yankees probably know that too, but for some reason, they felt the results were not there and offered him an incentive laden contract, and in essence, a pay cut.

They held a manager who won 6 pennants and 4 World championships to a standard, but apparently the hitting coach for the White Sox, has no standard of performance and gets a free pass despite the results
It seems like Rudy Jaramillo's situation was very similar to Joe Torre's. You have two high achievers essentially eased out the door, but it's wrong for even suggesting that Greg Walker be held to any standard whatsoever.

dickallen15
10-18-2009, 11:48 AM
I'm sure Joe Torre knows exactly what he's doing as manager of a MLB club.
The Yankees probably know that too, but for some reason, they felt the results were not there and offered him an incentive laden contract, and in essence, a pay cut.

They held a manager who won 6 pennants and 4 World championships to a standard, but apparently the hitting coach for the White Sox, has no standard of performance and gets a free pass despite the results




Yet another horrible example as Torre then went to the Dodgers and this year enters the playoffs for the 16th straight season I believe, and the Yankees after letting him go, don't make the playoffs for the first time in ages.

Another thing about Torre. He was fired in St. Louis. Fired in Atlanta. Fired by the Mets. When the Yankees named him the manager, there were more than a few scratching their heads, as a guy who seems to get fired easily going to a team that fires their manager yearly, didn't seem like a good match. Strange what having good players does for you. Please name one player Greg Walker failed. A player who had much more success elsewhere before or after he became a White Sox. Again Nick Swisher doesn't count because he didn't listen to Walker. Steve Swisher is his hitting coach. The post several above gives a pretty nice summary of the Walker reign. Considering he doesn't have all stars at every position to work with, he's done a very solid job. In 2009, the only offensive players making much money were Dye, Konerko and Thome. AJ at $6 million I suppose could qualify. But 3B, SS,2B, LF and CF, at least the guys who played there most often, were paid less than $3.5 million total. You have 4 decently paid slow guys and 5 near minimum guys and think that with a hitting coach just doing their job, they should be among the league leaders in offense. That's like having NU play the Bears and have the Bears win and blame the loss on the NU coaching staff. You have to have the horses. The Sox didn't have the horses.

Comparing a hitting coach to someone who fixes a leaky roof is stupid as well. You can teach people how to fix a roof. If whoever was Pavarotti's voice coach, was mine as well, the end result wouldn't be the same. Hitting is not easy. You can know exactly what you are doing wrong and not be able to fix it. You also have to remember there are other people out there trying to keep you from figuring it out. Tiger Woods has a ball teed up and hits it with a flat surface and doesn't hit it right all the time.

captain54
10-18-2009, 03:08 PM
Who cares?

If you don't care, then why are you so quick to throw in a comeback when someone makes a point about the Walker issue?

captain54
10-18-2009, 03:20 PM
Comparing a hitting coach to someone who fixes a leaky roof is stupid as well.

Yet another horrible example as Torre then went to the Dodgers



You have a way a ridiculiing every analogy that doesn't fit into your neat little theory as to why Walker has nothing to do with the Sox's offensive problems......interesting

Despite your mighty verbosity, you continually tap dance around the fact that the Sox offensively, under the tutelage of Walker, have been around mediocre at best, (06 the exception) and have just completed one of the worst years offensively on record.

How you can continually point the finger at bad personnel is beyond me.

So despite all that verbosity of yours, it remains, just a big blast of hot air.

Nellie_Fox
10-18-2009, 03:32 PM
You have a way a ridiculiing every analogy that doesn't fit into your neat little theory as to why Walker has nothing to do with the Sox's offensive problems......interesting.Look who's talking!

spawn
10-18-2009, 03:37 PM
You have a way a ridiculiing every analogy that doesn't fit into your neat little theory as to why Walker has nothing to do with the Sox's offensive problems......interesting



Look who's talking!
No kidding:

I don't really think this is a good analogy because in the case of the hitting coach issue, we are talking about professional athletes, who are paid millions to perform, and are where they are because they are and have been among the creme de la creme at what they do.

Your analogy was stupid. No one in this thread has agreed with it. Just deal with it.

spawn
10-18-2009, 03:39 PM
You have a way a ridiculiing every analogy that doesn't fit into your neat little theory as to why Walker has nothing to do with the Sox's offensive problems......interesting

Despite your mighty verbosity, you continually tap dance around the fact that the Sox offensively, under the tutelage of Walker, have been around mediocre at best, (06 the exception) and have just completed one of the worst years offensively on record.

How you can continually point the finger at bad personnel is beyond me.

And for some reason, you continue to place 100% of the blame at the feet of Walker. Unless he's actually offernively batting 1-9 in the order, the majority of the blame should go to the batters for their failure. You haven't given any reason as to why that isn't the case.

captain54
10-18-2009, 04:27 PM
Look who's talking!

I would never ridicule you Nellie, you're my guy

captain54
10-18-2009, 04:30 PM
No kidding:

Your analogy was stupid. No one in this thread has agreed with it. Just deal with it.

I don't really care whether you think its stupid or not. And I don't care whether anyone agreed with it or not as well. It's the way I see it...So deal with that...

captain54
10-18-2009, 04:34 PM
And for some reason, you continue to place 100% of the blame at the feet of Walker.

I never said Walker was 100% to blame. I said a new perspective wouldn't hurt. I said good coaches, managers, etc are replaced all over sports when the results aren't there. I haven't heard one valid opinion on this board as to why Walker should be excused from being held up to any kind of standard.

Frater Perdurabo
10-18-2009, 04:42 PM
I said a new perspective wouldn't hurt.

I'd go further. I think a new perspective would help.

Ranger
10-18-2009, 04:44 PM
It's a version of this argument that really bothers me as well as the rest of the "Walker's gotta go" crowd.

You've basically been saying that the performance of the offense is no reflection on the hitting coach, and that your average fan doesn't know a good hitting coach from a bad hitting coach.

Do you, as someone with more access than the rest of us, know he's a good hitting coach from what you've seen? Or are you just defending him because you know we DON'T know ****? How many other professional hitting coaches have you seen perform? Maybe there are some out there that actually have an impact. Like someone else posted, how much worse can it get?

I've said this before, but maybe they can strip the title "hitting coach" from him and call him the batting cage attendant. Then they can hire someone that actually impact MLB hitters. Does such a person exist?

What would "actually impact" MLB hitters? A coach who stands in the box with the hitter and talks in their ear before, during, and after every pitch? Sure. The moment they start letting coaches on the field during the game, like in teeball, then you will have a guy who can have the sort of impact you're looking for.

As far as "fans" go, I'm saying there are many people that have absolutely zero idea what a hitting coach is actually supposed to do and what his responsibilities are. Like I've said several times, they see the bad hitting and assume the quick easy fix is to fire Walker because he is, after all, the hitting coach. There are, however, many people here on this board who do seem to truly understand what the actual role of that position is. And if they don't really understand, they have the awareness to admit that they have no idea if he does a good job or not because they don't know what the job entails.

Well, then you just contradicted yourself...In the same post you said that hiring someone else and ditching Walker could make things worse offensively for the Sox cause it would piss off the players. I guess the players are shooting for the Sox to be the first team ever to hit below the .200 mark.


Let me ask you this Ranger....what makes you more of an "expert" than others on this board that post opinions? Because you seem to infer that you are the only one here that truly understands and your some kind baseball hitting guru.

You continually tap dance around one very simple issue, that doesnt take an "expert" to figure out. The White Sox were HORRIBLE offensively in 2009, and they have nothing to lose by trying a different offensive approach in 2010.

I thought about not responding to you, because, well, it's just ridiculous. But, I've never tap-danced around anything. I believe the general consensus around here is that someone in this thread is not making sense, and that "someone" is not me.


I think most people do understand that it's not all on Walker and that Walker is not the sole reason why the offense has performed the way it has over the years. Walker is a scapegoat, and is easy to single out because like I said in a previous post, it's easier to replace a coach than to replace a lineup.

I don't understand why those who are defending (for lack of a better word) Walker are content with him returning next year as the hitting coach. Not a single person has given one good reason why Walker should be back next year. It's disconcerting because it seems like people are settling for mediocrity, and that is just wrong.

Well, obviously, it's easier to fire a coach than lineup, but if you're expecting that to fix the problem, you'll be in for a real disappointment. And actually, his "defenders" have given excellent reasons as to why he should not get fired. Mainly, the endorsement from major league hitters and people in the game. They seem to think he knows what he's doing. I tend to side with them.

If you want real change, then different lineup makeup is what you're looking for.

I thought I read one of the hitting coach's responsibilities (if there is such a thing as "a hitting coach's responsbility") was to prepare the hitters for the different pitchers they are facing.

If there was any peice of evidence that Walker failed at his job, I'd say this was it.

Eh. Yes and no. It's a combination of scouting and video staff, really. And believe me, the players have all the available video and information they could possibly need. Their video room is top-notch.

Also, the "first time pitchers thing" was kind of a myth this year as they started out poorly against first-timers, but were pretty good overall against them. What should also be noted is that this is a MLB-wide "issue." Pretty much every team goes through it.

Furthermore, the likelihood of success against first-timers is more dependent upon the types of hitters you have. The "see it and hit it" guys are typically better at it. Those that like to look at tons of video and like to study will often times have trouble with guys that have no "book".

I admit that I don't know what Walker does on a daily basis in his function as the hitting coach, I do though, watch every game, every season, for many seasons now, and it's not that hard to see that the offensive results are not really there, especially in 2009. why is it such a crime to even suggest that the hitting coach might possibly be the problem?



It's not a crime, but like I said earlier, if you don't have any idea whether or not a hitting coach is doing his job because you don't have any idea what he's truly supposed to do, how can you be so absolutely certain in your opinion that he needs to go?

And what you fail to understand is that the actual construction of the lineup has more to do with it than anything else. You have good hitters, you'll have a good offense. A good hitting coach does not make good offensive output.

dickallen15
10-18-2009, 04:47 PM
You have a way a ridiculiing every analogy that doesn't fit into your neat little theory as to why Walker has nothing to do with the Sox's offensive problems......interesting

Despite your mighty verbosity, you continually tap dance around the fact that the Sox offensively, under the tutelage of Walker, have been around mediocre at best, (06 the exception) and have just completed one of the worst years offensively on record.

How you can continually point the finger at bad personnel is beyond me.

So despite all that verbosity of yours, it remains, just a big blast of hot air.

For one thing if you hired the guys to fix the leaky roof and they didn't get the job done, using your Walker theory, you wouldn't call them back to fix it or fire them. You would have to fire yourself. The people actually doing the work should not be held accountable, just like the guys stepping up to the plate should not be held accountable.

As far as that's what is done is sports. I agree that's what usually happens, but it doesn't make it smart or right. Most of the time a coach or manager get replaced and not the players, the results tend to be eerily similar.

So instead of falling into the old trap of firing the coach and watching that fail, the Sox have decided to change some players and see if that changes things. I think it will.

captain54
10-18-2009, 06:16 PM
A good hitting coach does not make good offensive output.

You've stated this more than once on this board, Ranger, and it surprises me you would make such a silly statement, because you seem like an intelligent, knowledgeable guy.

If the hitting coach is not responsible for the offensive output of a club, then what is he responsible for? Taking them out for drinks afterwards and listening to their marital problems? Making sure they have enough fresh bats in the bat rack? Breaking up fist fights in the locker room over poker games? Making sure the music isn't too loud in the locker room?

Let me pose this question to you and others that share your opinion. I recently read a quote from Walker, where he stated that he was stumped as to what happened to JD in the 2nd half. His exact quote was "if I had magic fairy dust to sprinkle I would do it, because nothing worked"

NOW.....is it possible, by some crazy stretch of the imagination, that there might be some other hitting coach in the universe that could have helped JD out of his funk? Someone else, that maybe could have brought a fresh set of eyes and perspective to the situation??

captain54
10-18-2009, 06:20 PM
I because you don't have any idea what he's truly supposed to do, how can you be so absolutely certain in your opinion that he needs to go?



Actually I know exactly what Greg Walker is supposed to do.

Help the Sox not become the worst hitting team in the AL in 2009.

Guess it didn't happen.

captain54
10-18-2009, 06:24 PM
For one thing if you hired the guys to fix the leaky roof and they didn't get the job done, using your Walker theory, you wouldn't call them back to fix it or fire them. You would have to fire yourself. The people actually doing the work should not be held accountable, just like the guys stepping up to the plate should not be held accountable.



It was a general analogy to illustrate a point, not to be taken literally.

the point was, I don't need to climb a ladder, go up on my roof, tear apart shingles to know if the roof they were supposed to fix is still leaking. All I have to do is sit on my couch watching TV and have a drop hit the top of my head to know someone up there messed up

Lip Man 1
10-18-2009, 06:27 PM
From an upcoming interview at WSI:

ML: Another area was the Sox performance against “no-name / rookie pitchers”. Some say this is a myth but all I know is that the Orioles radio people were talking about this issue before a game in April and the Sox faced a large number of guys they never faced before, this year. Coincidence? Even Ozzie Guillen talked about how embarrassing it was for the Sox to lose to some of the pitchers they lost to this season. Will you comment on that?

Answer: “Every team has a weak area, their Kryptonite. With the Sox it’s changed at times, they’ve had issues with left handers; they’ve had issues with guys they’ve never seen before. I’m not trying to take anything away from the guys who’ve beat the Sox this year, some days you just can’t hit them, but I think the Sox have got to have a more extended focus on first time pitcher tendencies. I’ve seen guys looking at tape, I’ve seen Greg Walker talking to them about certain pitchers, I’ve seen the way they’ve focused on guys like Zach Grienke but they haven’t always done that every game.”

Lip

spawn
10-18-2009, 06:29 PM
Actually I know exactly what Greg Walker is supposed to do.

Help the Sox not become the worst hitting team in the AL in 2009.

Guess it didn't happen.
So are you saying that if the Sox would've had a different hitting coach, Jaramillo for instance, there would've been a different outcome offensively? JD wouldn't have had a second half silde? The Sox offense would've done better with runners in scoring position? You really believe this?

captain54
10-18-2009, 06:41 PM
So are you saying that if the Sox would've had a different hitting coach, Jaramillo for instance, there would've been a different outcome offensively? JD wouldn't have had a second half silde?

So now you are suggesting that if Walker couldn't fix things, nobody can?

C'mon, man.

spawn
10-18-2009, 06:54 PM
So now you are suggesting that if Walker couldn't fix things, nobody can?


I'm not suggesting anything. I asked a question. And as usual, you didn't answer the question with an honest answer. You answered the question with a question.:rolleyes:

captain54
10-18-2009, 09:19 PM
I'm not suggesting anything. I asked a question. And as usual, you didn't answer the question with an honest answer. You answered the question with a question.:rolleyes:

"So are you saying that if the Sox would've had a different hitting coach, Jaramillo for instance, there would've been a different outcome offensively? "

Yes, I'm saying that if the Sox would have had a different coach, they would have been better offensively. According to quotes I've read, Walker tried everything and couldn't get guys to perform. Time for a different perspective..

Can't just automatically put in on the players, sorry..

spawn
10-18-2009, 09:40 PM
"So are you saying that if the Sox would've had a different hitting coach, Jaramillo for instance, there would've been a different outcome offensively? "

Yes, I'm saying that if the Sox would have had a different coach, they would have been better offensively. According to quotes I've read, Walker tried everything and couldn't get guys to perform. Time for a different perspective..

Can't just automatically put in on the players, sorry..
You can't automatically absolve the players of blame either.

Ranger
10-18-2009, 09:45 PM
You've stated this more than once on this board, Ranger, and it surprises me you would make such a silly statement, because you seem like an intelligent, knowledgeable guy.

If the hitting coach is not responsible for the offensive output of a club, then what is he responsible for? Taking them out for drinks afterwards and listening to their marital problems? Making sure they have enough fresh bats in the bat rack? Breaking up fist fights in the locker room over poker games? Making sure the music isn't too loud in the locker room?

Let me pose this question to you and others that share your opinion. I recently read a quote from Walker, where he stated that he was stumped as to what happened to JD in the 2nd half. His exact quote was "if I had magic fairy dust to sprinkle I would do it, because nothing worked"

NOW.....is it possible, by some crazy stretch of the imagination, that there might be some other hitting coach in the universe that could have helped JD out of his funk? Someone else, that maybe could have brought a fresh set of eyes and perspective to the situation??

At the MLB level, good hitters make a good offense. If guys can't hit, or the lineup is constructed in a certain way (such as having a bunch of free swinging, power hitters) your offense is going to be able to do only what the guys in the lineup are capable of doing.

Here's what you don't understand (because you are stubborn in your belief without any real evidence to support it. And don't say, "I have the results of the offense as my evidence" because that belief is what's in question): Nobody that I've ever spoken to within the game -- and I mean players, former players, coaches, executives, scouts, etc. -- and I do mean NOBODY. Zero. Not a single person has EVER said they think Walker isn't good or that someone else would do a better job or anything of the sort. Not even one.

I need more evidence than "the offense sucks." I need to know whether or not the guy making 6 figures is actually, personally responsible for those results before I decide he should be fired. When I hear a struggling player tell me there isn't really much anyone else can do and that it's on himself, I have to side with that guy. Well, in this case, multiple guys. The guys in the trenches are the people that know better than anyone else.


Actually I know exactly what Greg Walker is supposed to do.

Help the Sox not become the worst hitting team in the AL in 2009.

Guess it didn't happen.

That's where your problem is. It's really not his job. And I've stated here several times what the duties of a hitting coach really are. He's a supervisor, he's not a coordinator.

captain54
10-18-2009, 10:18 PM
Nobody that I've ever spoken to within the game -- and I mean players, former players, coaches, executives, scouts, etc. -- and I do mean NOBODY. Zero. Not a single person has EVER said they think Walker isn't good or that someone else would do a better job or anything of the sort. Not even one.


And every sports figure who has ever spoken to the media in the history of sports has always been 100% truthful and honest......okay

spawn
10-18-2009, 10:36 PM
And every sports figure who has ever spoken to the media in the history of sports has always been 100% truthful and honest......okay
So in your eyes, anyone that voices public support for Walker must be lying. Got it. :thumbsup:

captain54
10-18-2009, 10:59 PM
So in your eyes, anyone that voices public support for Walker must be lying. Got it. :thumbsup:

You're very good at twisting someones words....Got it :thumbsup:

Ranger
10-18-2009, 11:11 PM
And every sports figure who has ever spoken to the media in the history of sports has always been 100% truthful and honest......okay

I'm not talking about public conversations...though those have been positive in his favor, too.

Again, I trust them more than I trust you when it comes to this.

captain54
10-19-2009, 12:38 AM
I'm not talking about public conversations...though those have been positive in his favor, too.



Thank you, Ranger...Thank you, thank you, thank you

There have been hundreds of posts debating this issue going back for a while now....Now, it can finally be resolved....

Because you have personally not heard of anyone saying anything negative about Walker, we can finally say that all those that were for Walker being replaced are officially, here and now, proven wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt...

We can now say, without any debate, that Walker should have job security for life, no matter how poorly the Sox offense performs.

Zisk77
10-19-2009, 09:34 AM
If you don't care, then why are you so quick to throw in a comeback when someone makes a point about the Walker issue?

Who cares that you will apologise in the future if wrong, not who cares about the thread topic. Are we really on here to say nanny nanny boo boo I was right and you were wrong?

pmck003
10-19-2009, 11:36 AM
"So are you saying that if the Sox would've had a different hitting coach, Jaramillo for instance, there would've been a different outcome offensively? "

Yes, I'm saying that if the Sox would have had a different coach, they would have been better offensively. According to quotes I've read, Walker tried everything and couldn't get guys to perform. Time for a different perspective..

Can't just automatically put in on the players, sorry..

Lets ignore if Walker is good or not (I think there is more evidence that he is good but 17 pages in nobody has changed their mind). The responsibility of recognizing if a new hitting coach is necessary would fall on the architect(s) of the team in that they are designing the line-up and would need to know what the line-up needs from a hitting coach. They would get feedback from personal observations and those of the coaching staff/players as well.

Your argument for Walker being a poor hitting coach is weak because you cannot prove or even show much evidence towards it. Quentin had injury problems; I don't think its fair to fire Walker based on JD's second half struggles while the rest of the team played up to or exceeded past performances/expectations at the plate. If we're gonna judge hitting coaches off of team performance, wouldn't Don Mattingly or Kevin Long be the best? You may have a good argument in that a new philosophy/perspective would help the team though. As far as Jaramillo, while I just mentioned its hard just to look at numbers alone and if I had a choice between Jaramillo and Walker I'd take Jaramillo, the Rangers avg/obp/slg over the last 5 years have seemed to indicate a similar batting approach as to the Sox, which makes me believe that its possible there wouldn't be much of a difference.

It is possible that things could be much worse - maybe the Sox's brass thinks a change would only confuse and set back guys like Beckham and Quentin. Maybe Walker has gotten much more out of our players than we realize and w/ another guy every year could of been/would be like 2007 - people have posted that no one that has left the Sox has exactly turned into an all star. There has to be some logic as to why the Sox decided to keep Walker. Again though, this falls on KW/management to realize that a new hitting coach would get more out of the team even if Walker is good at what he does.

Ranger
10-19-2009, 12:04 PM
Thank you, Ranger...Thank you, thank you, thank you

There have been hundreds of posts debating this issue going back for a while now....Now, it can finally be resolved....

Because you have personally not heard of anyone saying anything negative about Walker, we can finally say that all those that were for Walker being replaced are officially, here and now, proven wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt...

We can now say, without any debate, that Walker should have job security for life, no matter how poorly the Sox offense performs.

Um, well, yeah. Don't you think real, actual Major League hitters know better than you do? All I've ever heard is praise for the guy. All I've ever heard is that there is only so much hitting coach can do and he does those things.

As for the strawman tone of your post, this is what happens when the stubborn have a point of view, have little evidence to support that point of view, but refuse to be open-minded. Find me a post where anyone said Walker should be secure for life. As long as he's performing the duties he's supposed to perform, he shouldn't lose his job.

There is really no reason to continue this discussion with you.

Lets ignore if Walker is good or not (I think there is more evidence that he is good but 17 pages in nobody has changed their mind). The responsibility of recognizing if a new hitting coach is necessary would fall on the architect(s) of the team in that they are designing the line-up and would need to know what the line-up needs from a hitting coach. They would get feedback from personal observations and those of the coaching staff/players as well.

Your argument for Walker being a poor hitting coach is weak because you cannot prove or even show much evidence towards it. Quentin had injury problems; I don't think its fair to fire Walker based on JD's second half struggles while the rest of the team played up to or exceeded past performances/expectations at the plate. If we're gonna judge hitting coaches off of team performance, wouldn't Don Mattingly or Kevin Long be the best? You may have a good argument in that a new philosophy/perspective would help the team though. As far as Jaramillo, while I just mentioned its hard just to look at numbers alone and if I had a choice between Jaramillo and Walker I'd take Jaramillo, the Rangers avg/obp/slg over the last 5 years have seemed to indicate a similar batting approach as to the Sox, which makes me believe that its possible there wouldn't be much of a difference.

It is possible that things could be much worse - maybe the Sox's brass thinks a change would only confuse and set back guys like Beckham and Quentin. Maybe Walker has gotten much more out of our players than we realize and w/ another guy every year could of been/would be like 2007 - people have posted that no one that has left the Sox has exactly turned into an all star. There has to be some logic as to why the Sox decided to keep Walker. Again though, this falls on KW/management to realize that a new hitting coach would get more out of the team even if Walker is good at what he does.

Logical. Well done.