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LITTLE NELL
10-11-2009, 08:55 AM
Daily Herald is reporting today that JD would like to return to Sox as DH in 2010.
What do you think?
Question we have to ask is Dye really through or was he just in a horrible slump.

Zisk77
10-11-2009, 09:07 AM
Daily Herald is reporting today that JD would like to return to Sox as DH in 2010.
What do you think?
Question we have to ask is Dye really through or was he just in a horrible slump.

Probably just a horrible slump, but is it worth the risk?

LITTLE NELL
10-11-2009, 09:37 AM
Sun-Times is also reporting that Thome wants to return to the Sox.
Because we don't have a left handed power hitter in the lineup I might go with Thome for 1 more year, but no way should Thome and Dye both return.

KyWhiSoxFan
10-11-2009, 09:42 AM
Sun-Times is also reporting that Thome wants to return to the Sox.
Because we don't have a left handed power hitter in the lineup I might go with Thome for 1 more year, but no way should Thome and Dye both return.

No to both. The team needs to get younger and faster. Dye aged five years before our eyes the second half of the season.

Crestani
10-11-2009, 11:18 AM
The Sox "jumped the shark" with Dye, IMO.

voodoochile
10-11-2009, 11:20 AM
I'd personally prefer a LH bat to fill that slot, but if the Sox think Dye has some more left in the tank with a reduced work load than it would be okay. This was the widely accepted plan midway through the season. It all comes down to whether Dye has anything left. Thome doesn't afford as much flexibility. Dye could still spell the OF 40 times a year or so to keep people fresh.

But, again, it's a tough call because he might simply be toast...

sox1970
10-11-2009, 11:24 AM
I don't think they'll have a fulltime DH next year. I think if Flowers is the backup catcher, you may see Pods, Pierzynski, Konerko and Quentin split it up. Especially if Podsednik and Kotsay re-sign.

...also Dayan Viciedo may have something to say about the DH spot too.

I just think Dye's time has run out here. And I don't think Thome will get his wish to come back either.

voodoochile
10-11-2009, 11:27 AM
I don't think they'll have a fulltime DH next year. I think if Flowers is the backup catcher, you may see Pods, Pierzynski, Konerko and Quentin split it up. Especially if Podsednik and Kotsay re-sign.

That's pretty much the implication - that there will be more flexibility from the DH position implies that it will rotate among players who can also play a position. The question is whether they manage to add one more bat.

Edit: Dye wouldn't afford as much flexibility as say Dunn or Abreu, but I think he'd still start some games in the OF.

Noneck
10-11-2009, 11:36 AM
Both Dye and Thome should depend on how much they will cost the Sox. Neither should get more a 1 year deal and I would like to see a contract based on incentives.

Chez
10-11-2009, 11:37 AM
Both Dye and Thome should depend on how much they will cost the Sox. Neither should get more a 1 year deal and I would like to see a contract based on incentives.

I agree. It will come down to dollars.

Daver
10-11-2009, 11:39 AM
I don't think they'll have a fulltime DH next year. I think if Flowers is the backup catcher, you may see Pods, Pierzynski, Konerko and Quentin split it up. Especially if Podsednik and Kotsay re-sign.


You'd need three catchers on the active roster to do this.

slavko
10-11-2009, 12:04 PM
I'd personally prefer a LH bat to fill that slot, but if the Sox think Dye has some more left in the tank with a reduced work load than it would be okay. This was the widely accepted plan midway through the season. It all comes down to whether Dye has anything left. Thome doesn't afford as much flexibility. Dye could still spell the OF 40 times a year or so to keep people fresh.

But, again, it's a tough call because he might simply be toast...

How do you tell? I love the guy and what he's done for us and the way he did it, but that last half season..... Even at reduced money he'd be taking up a roster slot.

Are we hard-headed businessmen or sentimental fools? (Don't answer that question.)

Rockabilly
10-11-2009, 12:07 PM
I would like to see the Sox sign Bobby Abreu for the DH role.

voodoochile
10-11-2009, 12:24 PM
How do you tell? I love the guy and what he's done for us and the way he did it, but that last half season..... Even at reduced money he'd be taking up a roster slot.

Are we hard-headed businessmen or sentimental fools? (Don't answer that question.)

Little of both actually, but I don't know how you tell. That's why I leave the decision to the Sox staff...:D:

soxfanreggie
10-11-2009, 12:25 PM
Is he willing to take a huge paycut to come back? That to me is the question. I'm thinking Big Jim will be willing to take more of a cut. Dye could still have a chance to go to the NL as an OF, although I'm not sure who would sign him there. Big Jim needs to stay in the AL. I'm not sure any NL team would sign Dye right now, but there is that chance. Looking at what we have, we might need a power LH stick more than what Dye could offer in spelling our OF.

Lip Man 1
10-11-2009, 12:45 PM
It's time to say 'thank you' to Dye and Thome and move into a new era.

Lip

mzh
10-11-2009, 12:48 PM
I would like to see the Sox sign Bobby Abreu for the DH role.
If you're going to do that, might as well bring back Thome/Dye and put Abreu in right. Abreu is also going to most likely command a multi-year deal, as this will most likely be the last chance he gets for big money.

voodoochile
10-11-2009, 01:02 PM
Is he willing to take a huge paycut to come back? That to me is the question. I'm thinking Big Jim will be willing to take more of a cut. Dye could still have a chance to go to the NL as an OF, although I'm not sure who would sign him there. Big Jim needs to stay in the AL. I'm not sure any NL team would sign Dye right now, but there is that chance. Looking at what we have, we might need a power LH stick more than what Dye could offer in spelling our OF.

From a purely offensive perspective you are correct, but it locks in a DH with no ability to play the field and relies on the premise that TCQ can still play RF on his bum foot. If not, Kotsay becomes our starting RF and Pods and TCQ are forced to split time in Left. From a position perspective it leaves the Sox thin.

fram40
10-11-2009, 01:06 PM
You'd need three catchers on the active roster to do this.

why? because the catcher might get injured? Or you would not be able to PH/pinch run for the DH.

I don't see it as that big of a risk - assuming Flowers can hit.

Daver
10-11-2009, 01:08 PM
why? because the catcher might get injured? Or you would not be able to PH/pinch run for the DH.

I don't see it as that big of a risk - assuming Flowers can hit.

If your catcher gets hurt in the first inning your DH is catching and your pitcher is batting for the rest of the game.

fram40
10-11-2009, 01:25 PM
If your catcher gets hurt in the first inning your DH is catching and your pitcher is batting for the rest of the game.

I understand that. But I might be willing to take that chance occasionally. Not every game, obviously. Maybe two/three times a week, at most.

The worst that happens is losing the DH - and that is not a guaranteed loss. Much more likely,perhaps, but not guaranteed. And even then, it is only one game.

I think it is worth consideration and the risk - if you decide that Flowers is ready for big league pitching and is your best bet as backup catcher.

russ99
10-11-2009, 01:28 PM
I'd love to see either Dye or Thome come back, but certainly not at anywhere near their current salary level.

Thome may be a bit more possible then Dye, since they're be really hard-pressed to get around Jermaine's option year restrictions, and they have to pay him $1M to decline the option.

Daver
10-11-2009, 01:29 PM
I understand that. But I might be willing to take that chance occasionally. Not every game, obviously. Maybe two/three times a week, at most.



You'd take a chance that your pitcher might be batting cleanup for 8 innings?

No one else in baseball shares your line of thinking.

DSpivack
10-11-2009, 01:31 PM
If you're going to do that, might as well bring back Thome/Dye and put Abreu in right. Abreu is also going to most likely command a multi-year deal, as this will most likely be the last chance he gets for big money.

I think the Angels will re-sign Abreu.

Red Barchetta
10-11-2009, 02:10 PM
Regardless of who they get, I hope we have a DH who can also play the field to spot rest some regulars. I think we need to move on from the DH only roster spot that Thome and Thomas have filled over the past 15 years. With inter-league play apparently here to stay, that's another reason to have more defensive options.

fram40
10-11-2009, 02:21 PM
You'd take a chance that your pitcher might be batting cleanup for 8 innings?

No one else in baseball shares your line of thinking.

I am sure that's true.

My point was more along the lines of, "what are the odds that AJ gets hurt in a game that Flowers is DH'ing"? What are the odds that the injury (thus forcing the pitcher to bat a few times) is the reason that the Sox lose that specific game?

Then, please balance the risk (losing ONE GAME is the only risk) against the benefits of not having Miller/Castro as backup catcher (how many games do we win). And the long-term benefits of Flowers on the major league roster getting playing time and experience.

It just strikes me as not as risky as most assume. Certainly not as risky as running Linebrink out there every third day for an inning.

LoveYourSuit
10-11-2009, 02:53 PM
You'd need three catchers on the active roster to do this.


No you don't.

You can still opt to hit your pitcher in an emergency situation.

Madscout
10-11-2009, 02:57 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. We do not need a DH on this team. We need the DH spot open to rest guys and get hot hitters into the lineup. We don't need to take on a big contract of a guy who sits if he isn't DH. If Dye is that guy, he can hit the road. If not, he better be able to play in the field.

Brian26
10-11-2009, 03:09 PM
Moot point. Once we trade Peavy for Zambrano, we'll be all set. We'll let AJ & Flowers know they can only get hurt once every five days when Big Z is on the mound.

Brian26
10-11-2009, 03:14 PM
I would like to see the Sox sign Bobby Abreu for the DH role.

I'm not sold on Abreu or Figgins. I think you're buying high on both guys right now. Abreu's only a month younger than Dye.

I'm also not sold on Podsednik for three years, as the explosive speed we saw in 2005 just isn't there anymore.

Thome's bat speed looks awful in his spot-play with the Dodgers.

Kenny's got his work cut out for him this winter.

Daver
10-11-2009, 03:15 PM
I am sure that's true.

My point was more along the lines of, "what are the odds that AJ gets hurt in a game that Flowers is DH'ing"? What are the odds that the injury (thus forcing the pitcher to bat a few times) is the reason that the Sox lose that specific game?

Then, please balance the risk (losing ONE GAME is the only risk) against the benefits of not having Miller/Castro as backup catcher (how many games do we win). And the long-term benefits of Flowers on the major league roster getting playing time and experience.

It just strikes me as not as risky as most assume. Certainly not as risky as running Linebrink out there every third day for an inning.


Well, if you are relying for offense out of the catcher position on an AL team you're team is flawed from the get go, so at that point it becomes completely moot.

thomas35forever
10-11-2009, 03:40 PM
I can't allow Dye on the team next season. He's getting old and who knows if that slump will continue into April. I'd rather not take the risk. If Thome comes back, it better be to an incentive-laden deal, but I'd much rather have a new guy in that position and if that's not the case, have Kotsay/Flowers fill that spot. For those considering Konerko as DH, he's done fine at first base, so keep him where he is.

Domeshot17
10-11-2009, 03:45 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. We do not need a DH on this team. We need the DH spot open to rest guys and get hot hitters into the lineup. We don't need to take on a big contract of a guy who sits if he isn't DH. If Dye is that guy, he can hit the road. If not, he better be able to play in the field.

rotating DH's so guys like Kotsay will get a ton of playing time will surely have the White Sox watching october baseball from their living room again.

We have to land a big bat this offseason. We need a guy who can give us 50-60 extra base hits and 100 rbis. It just has to happen or we are in big big trouble

Red Barchetta
10-11-2009, 04:11 PM
Who's up for a Chris Sabo comeback?! :tongue:

Konerko05
10-11-2009, 04:16 PM
2009 Scott Podsednik OPS: .764

2009 Jermaine Dye OPS: .793

Yes, Jermaine Dye almost had a lower OPS than Scott Podsednik last year.

I don't think there's any way the Sox can take a chance on him next season if they want the offense to improve.

If they do re-sign Podsednik to play LF, the offense can't afford to have two sub- .800 OPS players in offensive positions.

They desperately need to add a big bat to the offense, especially with Podsednik in LF. Dye has had two very average years out of the last four and he is going to be 36 next season. It's unrealistic to expect him to get better at this age.

Brian26
10-11-2009, 04:24 PM
Five years later, it appears we need Carlos Lee back here in lieu of Pods (contract-talk aside).

soxfanreggie
10-11-2009, 04:30 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. We do not need a DH on this team. We need the DH spot open to rest guys and get hot hitters into the lineup. We don't need to take on a big contract of a guy who sits if he isn't DH. If Dye is that guy, he can hit the road. If not, he better be able to play in the field.

I disagree, and we don't necessarily need to take on a huge contract to get that DH either.

SOXSINCE'70
10-11-2009, 04:41 PM
Probably just a horrible slump, but is it worth the risk?

It was former Brooklyn Dodger GM Branch Rickey that once said
( and I paraphrase),"I'd rather get rid of a player one year too early
than one year too late".

Translation (IMO): If Jermaine Dye is due for an
extended stay on the DL,please let it NOT be with
the White Sox.

SOXSINCE'70
10-11-2009, 04:43 PM
Who's up for a Chris Sabo comeback?! :tongue:

Dan Pasqua or Cory Snyder anyone?? Carlos May??:lol::lol:

soxinem1
10-11-2009, 05:19 PM
Both Dye and Thome should depend on how much they will cost the Sox. Neither should get more a 1 year deal and I would like to see a contract based on incentives.

http://www.ideachampions.com/heart/jake%20and%20elwood.jpg

'We're puttin' the band back together'.

soxinem1
10-11-2009, 05:22 PM
rotating DH's so guys like Kotsay will get a ton of playing time will surely have the White Sox watching october baseball from their living room again.

We have to land a big bat this offseason. We need a guy who can give us 50-60 extra base hits and 100 rbis. It just has to happen or we are in big big trouble

http://organizations.bloomu.edu/programboard/Bingo.gif

guillensdisciple
10-11-2009, 05:27 PM
Sun-Times is also reporting that Thome wants to return to the Sox.
Because we don't have a left handed power hitter in the lineup I might go with Thome for 1 more year, but no way should Thome and Dye both return.


Wow, that is one thing I will never dislike about the White Sox. Most players that come in here, end up loving it here. Hooray! I would love him back here so we could win him his first or second world series ring.

Noneck
10-11-2009, 05:39 PM
Wow, that is one thing I will never dislike about the White Sox. Most players that come in here, end up loving it here. Hooray! I would love him back here so we could win him his first or second world series ring.

Actually Thomes choices are very limited and even more limited if having a shot at a championship is on his mind.

Thinking about that again, maybe his choices are minuscule or maybe even non existant.

soxfanreggie
10-11-2009, 06:07 PM
Well, if you are relying for offense out of the catcher position on an AL team you're team is flawed from the get go, so at that point it becomes completely moot.

Don't the Minnesota Twins do just that?

Daver
10-11-2009, 06:30 PM
Don't the Minnesota Twins do just that?

Joe Mauer is not your pro-typical catcher, and the Twins have three catchers on their active roster.

Corlose 15
10-11-2009, 08:00 PM
Does Abreu provide enough power for the White Sox? He's going to hit .300, drive in 100 runs and have an OBP at least in the high .300s. He could also steal 30 bases next year. However he's only hit 20 HR once in the last 4 years and only had 29 doubles this year.

Is he enough, with the return of a healthy Quentin, and more productive Rios, to offseat the power loss from Dye and Thome?

slavko
10-11-2009, 08:25 PM
Five years later, it appears we need Carlos Lee back here in lieu of Pods (contract-talk aside).

For defense anyway.

soxinem1
10-11-2009, 08:38 PM
I am very conflicted on this issue with bringing Dye and Thome back.

Dye was the best major free-agent pick up in team history. For performance, length of time with the team, and all the other intangibles, no one topped him. Dye will always be one of my favorites.

On August 1, most of us thought Dye was more likely than Thome to return in 2010. Things sure can change in a hurry.

Nothing is guaranteed in this game, and with Dye the question is which Dye would we get? The first half Dye who hit .300 and was on pace to a 40 HR, 115 RBI season? Or the second half Dye who more resembled a NL pitcher? We do not know, but I think something along the Dye of 2005 is not a stretch. Solid, but not spectacular.

I believe his failings really began once Rios joined the team. While JD should be experienced and professional enough to not be threatened by a newly acquired player, I somehow believe that he felt Rios was a threat.

On the other hand, he was not benched or platooned after Rios came aboard and pretty much played regularly until the team was out fo the race, and even then it was not like he was relegated to the Sunday Lineup.

For us armchair managers the question is really this: Is Dye at DH going to help us return as a strong post-season contender, and if not, who is, Delgado, Thome, or whoever? Are the options out there as trade or FA possibilities better than what Dye or Thome bring to the lineup?

I do know that the idea of rotating the DH spot with the existing roster is NOT a good idea. This team needs another productive slugger, be he a DH, 1B, or OF. Without one, this lineup will be about as scary as the 1986 or 1988 White Sox.

So in my opinion, the question should be: Will another player help this lineup more than Dye?

KMcMahon817
10-11-2009, 08:55 PM
Joe Mauer is not your pro-typical catcher, and the Twins have three catchers on their active roster.

They didn't all season.

DSpivack
10-12-2009, 01:23 AM
Does Abreu provide enough power for the White Sox? He's going to hit .300, drive in 100 runs and have an OBP at least in the high .300s. He could also steal 30 bases next year. However he's only hit 20 HR once in the last 4 years and only had 29 doubles this year.

Is he enough, with the return of a healthy Quentin, and more productive Rios, to offseat the power loss from Dye and Thome?

Abreu has power, though he isn't necessarily a HR hitter. He's a very good run producer, though, and that's what we need.

Noneck
10-12-2009, 01:32 AM
Does Abreu provide enough power for the White Sox? He's going to hit .300, drive in 100 runs and have an OBP at least in the high .300s. He could also steal 30 bases next year. However he's only hit 20 HR once in the last 4 years and only had 29 doubles this year.

Is he enough, with the return of a healthy Quentin, and more productive Rios, to offseat the power loss from Dye and Thome?

He is an RBI machine, it doesn't matter if he gets homers. All that matters is that the table setters get on in front of him.

Now to reality. No way he leaves LAA and no way he would accept Sox kind of money.

pudge
10-12-2009, 02:53 AM
He is an RBI machine, it doesn't matter if he gets homers. All that matters is that the table setters get on in front of him.

Now to reality. No way he leaves LAA and no way he would accept Sox kind of money.

Exactly, everyone needs to put the Abreu-crack pipe down. Not happening.

I think we're all knee-jerk reacting to what a horrid second half Dye had. I'll admit his torrid start this year turned me into a huge fan, and then he crashed and burned. Assuming he course-corrects once a new season starts, he can still carry a lineup when he's hot, and maybe if he rests on defense, he'll be fine.

I honestly don't think Thome gives you anything anymore beside maybe winning 2-3 games with a big fly. But he'll probably cost you 4-5 with his K's and wheels.

I'd take Dye over Thome, and I disagree with those who think we can just rotate Pods, Kotay, et al and be okay - this is the AL and we're in a sluggers park. Even in '05 we had Thomas and Everett.

SOXSINCE'70
10-12-2009, 07:28 AM
No way he leaves LAA and no way he would accept Sox kind of money.

Sadly,you are correct.:(:

Dan H
10-12-2009, 10:20 AM
I agree with Lip. It is time to turn the page and move on. The problem is the team will have a hard time rebuilding the offense in the off season. But I do not want a full time DH.

doublem23
10-12-2009, 10:31 AM
I agree with Lip. It is time to turn the page and move on. The problem is the team will have a hard time rebuilding the offense in the off season. But I do not want a full time DH.

Seriously, no team has ever succeeded with that model, have they?

:rolleyes:

mcfish
10-12-2009, 10:56 AM
I would like to see the Sox sign Bobby Abreu for the DH role.
I'd like to see the Sox sign 1963 Hank Aaron for the DH role. It's just about as likely as them signing Abreu too.

khan
10-12-2009, 11:08 AM
No to both. The team needs to get younger and faster. Dye aged five years before our eyes the second half of the season.
I disagree very strongly with this statement.

The team needs to get better at baseball, period. Whether it's old or new, the team needs to add quality to the roster.

As to the speed issue, look at the stats from this season:

1. The SOX had several 10+ SB players. In fact, they had MORE than the supposedly "speedy" Minnesota Twins had this season.

2. With Thome out of the roster, I believe the SOX finished the season without a single regular with an OPS greater than .850. Both the Twins and Tigers had several such players.

3. The White Sox finished without a single 100 RBI producer, and without a single 30 HR hitter. Both of the teams that finished ahead of the SOX had more than one 30+ HR hitter. In fact, I believe that every team in the playoffs from the AL had at least one 100 RBI producer and at least 1 30+ HR hitter.

I'd be curious as to when was the last time a team made it to the playoffs or won the World Series without a .850 OPS regular, without a 30+ HR hitter, and without a 100+ RBI producer. For that matter, I'd be curious when the last time there was a World Series champion without at least ONE of these, especially in the AL.

Whether it's Dye or Thome or somebody else, KW's #1 priority HAS TO be to add a slugger to an underpowered offense. Preferably, one that can hit for a decent average.

Foulke You
10-12-2009, 11:30 AM
I disagree very strongly with this statement.

The team needs to get better at baseball, period. Whether it's old or new, the team needs to add quality to the roster.

As to the speed issue, look at the stats from this season:

1. The SOX had several 10+ SB players. In fact, they had MORE than the supposedly "speedy" Minnesota Twins had this season.

2. With Thome out of the roster, I believe the SOX finished the season without a single regular with an OPS greater than .850. Both the Twins and Tigers had several such players.

3. The White Sox finished without a single 100 RBI producer, and without a single 30 HR hitter. Both of the teams that finished ahead of the SOX had more than one 30+ HR hitter. In fact, I believe that every team in the playoffs from the AL had at least one 100 RBI producer and at least 1 30+ HR hitter.

I'd be curious as to when was the last time a team made it to the playoffs or won the World Series without a .850 OPS regular, without a 30+ HR hitter, and without a 100+ RBI producer. For that matter, I'd be curious when the last time there was a World Series champion without at least ONE of these, especially in the AL.

Whether it's Dye or Thome or somebody else, KW's #1 priority HAS TO be to add a slugger to an underpowered offense. Preferably, one that can hit for a decent average.
Excellent post Khan. The whole "we need speed" thing is highly overrated and as you pointed out, the team actually did add more speed in 2009. The problem with our offense this year wasn't that we were too slow footed, it was the huge dropoff in power and RBI production. For the first time in a long time, the Sox got outslugged in their own ballpark. It's going to take more than Kotsay, Flowers, and Podsednik rotating a the DH spot to replace the production that Thome and Dye gave you. I'm not advocating a return for both Dye and Thome but simply pointing out that this offensive production needs to be replaced. Hopefully, Rios will return to his career norms which will give us a boost in production from CF but it would be nice to get a boost at DH or RF as well. I think a free agent like Matt Holliday would fit the bill nicely but his price tag might be too high.

Nellie_Fox
10-12-2009, 11:32 AM
1. The SOX had several 10+ SB players. In fact, they had MORE than the supposedly "speedy" Minnesota Twins had this season.There's much more to speed than stolen bases. The Twins were much better at taking the extra base than the Sox were.

Tragg
10-12-2009, 11:37 AM
Daily Herald is reporting today that JD would like to return to Sox as DH in 2010.
What do you think?
Even at 30% of his salary, I'd much rather Thome.
Who is playing RF next year?



The team needs to get better at baseball, period. Whether it's old or new, the team needs to add quality to the roster.

I agree with that.

khan
10-12-2009, 11:51 AM
There's much more to speed than stolen bases. The Twins were much better at taking the extra base than the Sox were.

Minnesota also had Kubel/Mauer/Morneau, who hit the crap out of the ball. Having guys that hit for 30+ HR, more than 100 RBI, and have an OPS > .850 is far more significant than the occasional extra base. The SOX lineup didn't have even ONE 30+ HR hitter, nor ONE 100+ RBI producer, nor ONE regular with an OPS > .850 this year.


The group-think that is fed by morons in the media that "Minnesota has speed and pitching" needs to be re-thought. The fact is that Minnesota hit for decent power, while the SOX didn't. Minnesota isn't particularly speedy, regardless of what metric you use. These aren't the Twins from a few years ago that are all slap-hitters, grinders that take the extra base, and stolen bases. They hit the crap out of the ball for HR and for extra bases.

Domeshot17
10-12-2009, 12:01 PM
Minnesota also had Kubel/Mauer/Morneau, who hit the crap out of the ball. Having guys that hit for 30+ HR, more than 100 RBI, and have an OPS > .850 is far more significant than the occasional extra base. The SOX lineup didn't have even ONE 30+ HR hitter, nor ONE 100+ RBI producer, nor ONE regular with an OPS > .850 this year.


The group-think that is fed by morons in the media that "Minnesota has speed and pitching" needs to be re-thought. The fact is that Minnesota hit for decent power, while the SOX didn't. Minnesota isn't particularly speedy, regardless of what metric you use. These aren't the Twins from a few years ago that are all slap-hitters, grinders that take the extra base, and stolen bases. They hit the crap out of the ball for HR and for extra bases.

Dont forget Cuddyer, he was awesome this year also. I mean, the 2 differences between the Sox and Twins are (1) We don't have anyone close to a Mauer or Morneau (2) The Twins know how to teach prospects at the minor league level so they can come up and contribute without massive growing pains.

Nellie_Fox
10-12-2009, 12:58 PM
I don't disagree with either of the last two posts. I was just pointing out that there's more to "speed" than stolen bases.

Frater Perdurabo
10-12-2009, 04:01 PM
I don't disagree with either of the last two posts. I was just pointing out that there's more to "speed" than stolen bases.

I agree.

Also, all things being equal, and even putting aside the ability to play the field, I'd rather have Bobby Abreu (yes, I know he's a pipedream) than Thome (or Dye). Thome has a slightly higher OPS, (.847 to .825), due mostly to hitting more home runs (23 to 15). But Abreu has a higher batting average (.293 to .249), hits more doubles and triples (32 to 15), gets on base more (.390 to .366), and runs the bases better. When Thome gets on base, it's station-to-station baseball. When Abreu gets on base, he can advance two bases on many singles and three bases on most doubles. In short, Abreu is a better all-around baseball player than Thome and can beat you with more than just the home run.

I'm willing to sacrifice some power (and even some walks) in order to get a higher batting average and better speed. That's why I'd take Abreu (or Crawford) over Thome (or Dunn or Dye).

OPS is a good yet still flawed measure of an individual player's performance because it values a walk as much as a base hit, and doesn't factor in a player's ability to take an extra base. A walk only drives in a run when the bases are loaded. A base hit, on the other hand, doesn't require the bases to be loaded to drive in a run, and it sometimes can drive in two runs. It also can cause the defense to make an error, which can lead to more runs.

LITTLE NELL
10-12-2009, 04:24 PM
I am very conflicted on this issue with bringing Dye and Thome back.

Dye was the best major free-agent pick up in team history. For performance, length of time with the team, and all the other intangibles, no one topped him. Dye will always be one of my favorites.

On August 1, most of us thought Dye was more likely than Thome to return in 2010. Things sure can change in a hurry.

Nothing is guaranteed in this game, and with Dye the question is which Dye would we get? The first half Dye who hit .300 and was on pace to a 40 HR, 115 RBI season? Or the second half Dye who more resembled a NL pitcher? We do not know, but I think something along the Dye of 2005 is not a stretch. Solid, but not spectacular.

I believe his failings really began once Rios joined the team. While JD should be experienced and professional enough to not be threatened by a newly acquired player, I somehow believe that he felt Rios was a threat.

On the other hand, he was not benched or platooned after Rios came aboard and pretty much played regularly until the team was out fo the race, and even then it was not like he was relegated to the Sunday Lineup.

For us armchair managers the question is really this: Is Dye at DH going to help us return as a strong post-season contender, and if not, who is, Delgado, Thome, or whoever? Are the options out there as trade or FA possibilities better than what Dye or Thome bring to the lineup?

I do know that the idea of rotating the DH spot with the existing roster is NOT a good idea. This team needs another productive slugger, be he a DH, 1B, or OF. Without one, this lineup will be about as scary as the 1986 or 1988 White Sox.

So in my opinion, the question should be: Will another player help this lineup more than Dye?
I'm going to disagree with you on Dye being the greatest free agent pick-up in Sox history--I'm going with Carlton Fisk.

khan
10-12-2009, 04:37 PM
I agree.

Also, all things being equal, and even putting aside the ability to play the field, I'd rather have Bobby Abreu (yes, I know he's a pipedream) than Thome (or Dye). Thome has a slightly higher OPS, (.847 to .825), due mostly to hitting more home runs (23 to 15). But Abreu has a higher batting average (.293 to .249), hits more doubles and triples (32 to 15), gets on base more (.390 to .366), and runs the bases better. When Thome gets on base, it's station-to-station baseball. When Abreu gets on base, he can advance two bases on many singles and three bases on most doubles. In short, Abreu is a better all-around baseball player than Thome and can beat you with more than just the home run.

I'm willing to sacrifice some power (and even some walks) in order to get a higher batting average and better speed. That's why I'd take Abreu (or Crawford) over Thome (or Dunn or Dye).

OPS is a good yet still flawed measure of an individual player's performance because it values a walk as much as a base hit, and doesn't factor in a player's ability to take an extra base. A walk only drives in a run when the bases are loaded. A base hit, on the other hand, doesn't require the bases to be loaded to drive in a run, and it sometimes can drive in two runs. It also can cause the defense to make an error, which can lead to more runs.
This is a long way of posting about a player that will never play for the SOX. Sure: Abreu's better than Dye and Thome. But so are A-Roid and Albert Pujols, and they're not coming here, either.

khan
10-12-2009, 04:41 PM
Dont forget Cuddyer, he was awesome this year also. I mean, the 2 differences between the Sox and Twins are (1) We don't have anyone close to a Mauer or Morneau (2) The Twins know how to teach prospects at the minor league level so they can come up and contribute without massive growing pains.

:angry: Thanks for the reminder. So in effect, there are 4 regulars in the Twins' lineup with > .850 OPS and > .500 slugging to our ZERO.

TheVulture
10-12-2009, 05:08 PM
I'm not buying the need for speed argument either. However, I do think the Sox need to limit the amount of basecloggers in the lineup - we're going to have two with PK and AJ as it is.

getonbckthr
10-12-2009, 05:49 PM
I wonder how much Johnny Damon would cost to be a DH?

DSpivack
10-12-2009, 06:34 PM
:angry: Thanks for the reminder. So in effect, there are 4 regulars in the Twins' lineup with > .850 OPS and > .500 slugging to our ZERO.

Another way to put this is that Paul Konerko led the Sox with 28 HRs. The Twins had 4 players with 28 or more.

Frater Perdurabo
10-12-2009, 09:03 PM
Another way to put this is that Paul Konerko led the Sox with 28 HRs. The Twins had 4 players with 28 or more.

It's not just the home runs, but the overall power and ability to drive in runs. I would rather have a guy who hits 20 homers, 5 triples and 40 doubles, who also can take the extra base, who hits .285+, instead of a guy who hits 30 homers, no triples and 25 doubles, while hitting .260 or lower.

Lip Man 1
10-12-2009, 10:09 PM
Just say no to Johnny Damon.

Lip

mcfish
10-13-2009, 09:01 AM
I agree.

Also, all things being equal, and even putting aside the ability to play the field, I'd rather have Bobby Abreu (yes, I know he's a pipedream) than Thome (or Dye). Thome has a slightly higher OPS, (.847 to .825), due mostly to hitting more home runs (23 to 15). But Abreu has a higher batting average (.293 to .249), hits more doubles and triples (32 to 15), gets on base more (.390 to .366), and runs the bases better. When Thome gets on base, it's station-to-station baseball. When Abreu gets on base, he can advance two bases on many singles and three bases on most doubles. In short, Abreu is a better all-around baseball player than Thome and can beat you with more than just the home run.

I'm willing to sacrifice some power (and even some walks) in order to get a higher batting average and better speed. That's why I'd take Abreu (or Crawford) over Thome (or Dunn or Dye).

OPS is a good yet still flawed measure of an individual player's performance because it values a walk as much as a base hit, and doesn't factor in a player's ability to take an extra base. A walk only drives in a run when the bases are loaded. A base hit, on the other hand, doesn't require the bases to be loaded to drive in a run, and it sometimes can drive in two runs. It also can cause the defense to make an error, which can lead to more runs.This post is like arguing that a brand new Lexus is better than a 10 year old Chevy. Of course it is. There's no one here who wouldn't rather have Abreu or Crawford over Thome or Dunn or Dye. The difference between the two groups of players is that the second group is actually attainable.

Ok, I suppose that Abreu is "attainable", but if you think he's going to sign another 1 year/$5 million contract, you're absolutely nuts. He's going to get a very big contract this year.

soxinem1
10-13-2009, 09:19 AM
This post is like arguing that a brand new Lexus is better than a 10 year old Chevy. Of course it is. There's no one here who wouldn't rather have Abreu or Crawford over Thome or Dunn or Dye. The difference between the two groups of players is that the second group is actually attainable.

Ok, I suppose that Abreu is "attainable", but if you think he's going to sign another 1 year/$5 million contract, you're absolutely nuts. He's going to get a very big contract this year.

You are correct, but the more important fact will rely on what is doable.

Sure there will be guys available, but the cost of those options either via trade or $$$$ are what matters.

If they feel Dye or Thome can provide 30HR-90+ RBI production for $4-6 million they may take the gamble. And this is why I still believe Dye in a White Sox uniform in 2010 is very strong possibility. If you look at the players who fit the KW mold, are there many feasable options that fit that?

I can see the mental issues with JD. For example:

After winning the World Series there were rumors soon afterward of Contreras and him going to PHI for Abreu.

Then he was upset about KW's lack of interest in extending him during 2007. Remember when Buehrle and Dye were a step away from going to BOS? Then once he was signed, he picked his game up.

After 2008 KW was supposedly trying to unload him on CIN for Homer Bailey.

Sure you can say JD should realize that baseball is a business, but other than post-2006 he's been involved in more trade rumors than anyone on the team. Maybe the Rios deal finally took its toll.

If he has his head on straight I think Dye still has some solid seasons left in him. We'll just have to see if the White Sox feel the same way.

SOXSINCE'70
10-13-2009, 09:24 AM
I'd like to see the Sox sign 1963 Hank Aaron for the DH role.

How about the 1957 Mickey Mantle??
In '56, he won the triple crown AND helped the Yanks win the WS.
In '57, however, Aaron and the Milwaukee Braves
outlasted the Yanks in 7.

mcfish
10-13-2009, 09:41 AM
How about the 1957 Mickey Mantle??
In '56, he won the triple crown AND helped the Yanks win the WS.
In '57, however, Aaron and the Milwaukee Braves
outlasted the Yanks in 7.
Mantle would cost too much.

hawkjt
10-13-2009, 01:59 PM
I have my doubts that the Angels will give Abreu a big contract. They like him, he had a great year, and he was dirt cheap at 5 million,but they have a huge payroll already, and a bunch of hitters with more down on the farm. They have to sign Lackey among others so, I doubt they will shell out for a longterm deal to a 36 year old abreu.

How did Abreu slip between the cracks last year?
It was a slow F/A market due to the economy.
One year later...the economy is really not that much stronger, and he is a year older.
What are the chances that Abreu or others like him end up hat in hand again this year late in the FA market?

I think Kenny needs to be patient, get a sense for where the market is going,then go after the best bargain. As a last resort,maybe Thome or Dye could be in the picture, but only if he cannot do better. I love those guys but we just cannot count on them anymore..sad but true.

Jim Shorts
10-13-2009, 02:23 PM
I have my doubts that the Angels will give Abreu a big contract. They like him, he had a great year, and he was dirt cheap at 5 million,but they have a huge payroll already, and a bunch of hitters with more down on the farm. They have to sign Lackey among others so, I doubt they will shell out for a longterm deal to a 36 year old abreu.

How did Abreu slip between the cracks last year?
It was a slow F/A market due to the economy.
One year later...the economy is really not that much stronger, and he is a year older.
What are the chances that Abreu or others like him end up hat in hand again this year late in the FA market?

I think Kenny needs to be patient, get a sense for where the market is going,then go after the best bargain. As a last resort,maybe Thome or Dye could be in the picture, but only if he cannot do better. I love those guys but we just cannot count on them anymore..sad but true.


I swear I remember hearing that KW offered Abreu one year at 8mil. It seemed like Abreu was holding out for a bigger offer and then smack the market went soft, and he took what he could.

Can anyone correct that statement. I think it was moreso the marketplace than people not wanting to pay Abreu, but that is pure speculation.

Lip Man 1
10-13-2009, 03:14 PM
I don't know if the Sox definitively made an offer but it was widely reported they had some interest HOWEVER it appeared to be contingent on them trading Dye.

Lip

palehozenychicty
10-14-2009, 01:27 AM
rotating DH's so guys like Kotsay will get a ton of playing time will surely have the White Sox watching october baseball from their living room again.

We have to land a big bat this offseason. We need a guy who can give us 50-60 extra base hits and 100 rbis. It just has to happen or we are in big big trouble


Seriously. How do people expect to improve this lineup if you keep using the same guys that have not consistently got the job done?

SOXSINCE'70
10-14-2009, 07:13 AM
Mantle would cost too much.

If he were represented by Scott Dumbass, he'd make
more than PayWad and Texeira (SP??) combined.

I wonder what Roger Maris would have made in 1962
had he been allowed to have an agent. 61 HR's in '61,
A.L MVP,helped the Yanks win a WS, hard to make a case against
paying him big money.

Craig Grebeck
10-14-2009, 01:49 PM
I don't think they'll have a fulltime DH next year. I think if Flowers is the backup catcher, you may see Pods, Pierzynski, Konerko and Quentin split it up. Especially if Podsednik and Kotsay re-sign.

...also Dayan Viciedo may have something to say about the DH spot too.

I just think Dye's time has run out here. And I don't think Thome will get his wish to come back either.
Are you ****ing kidding me? Are people really this unaware of just how bad Dayan looked/performed this season? He's two years away at the very least.

sox1970
10-14-2009, 01:56 PM
Are you ****ing kidding me? Are people really this unaware of just how bad Dayan looked/performed this season? He's two years away at the very least.

He's bad at 3B, and I hope he moves to the outfield. Still, Doug Laumann was on with Rongey a couple weeks ago and said Viciedo will compete for an opening day spot, but may need a half year in the minors. Don't shoot the messenger. That's what he said.

As far as his bad year, no question he made a ton of errors, but considering he was 20 and playing in the US for the first time, his hitting wasn't bad at all.

Craig Grebeck
10-14-2009, 02:00 PM
He's bad at 3B, and I hope he moves to the outfield. Still, Doug Laumann was on with Rongey a couple weeks ago and said Viciedo will compete for an opening day spot, but may need a half year in the minors. Don't shoot the messenger. That's what he said.

As far as his bad year, no question he made a ton of errors, but considering he was 20 and playing in the US for the first time, his hitting wasn't bad at all.
It was very bad. Do you think Doug Laumann is going to be the most objective observer? Of course he's going to do the PR thing and say Dayan was impressive. We're talking about a kid who had one month with an OPS above .800, hit a frightening amount of ground balls, and didn't really show good pitch recognition at all. Sure, he has nice bat speed, but if anyone really believes in Laumann's assertion that he'll be competing for an opening day spot or needs only a half year in the minors, they've got some problems with gullibility.

dickallen15
10-14-2009, 02:04 PM
He's bad at 3B, and I hope he moves to the outfield. Still, Doug Laumann was on with Rongey a couple weeks ago and said Viciedo will compete for an opening day spot, but may need a half year in the minors. Don't shoot the messenger. That's what he said.

As far as his bad year, no question he made a ton of errors, but considering he was 20 and playing in the US for the first time, his hitting wasn't bad at all.
They invested $10 million in the guy, I would say he would project him at the very least at what he said. Put things into perspective. Delmon Young is a big dissappointment. He may be non tendered by Minnesota. He just turned 24 and put up the same if not better numbers than Viciedo, granted he's a 20 year old, put up in AA. I'm not giving up on the kid, but to think he's anything but at least a season if not more away is too optimistic IMO.

Nellie_Fox
10-14-2009, 02:09 PM
Are you ****ing kidding me? Are people really this unaware of just how bad Dayan looked/performed this season? He's two years away at the very least.Can you just give your opinion without putting people down? Not everybody follows the minor leagues.

Craig Grebeck
10-14-2009, 02:10 PM
Can you just give your opinion without putting people down? Not everybody follows the minor leagues.
Okay. I think it was a stupid post. If you don't follow the minor leagues, don't make the assertion that Viciedo could compete for DH next season.

Edit: and I think smart people can make stupid posts. No one's above that.

sox1970
10-14-2009, 02:22 PM
Okay. I think it was a stupid post. If you don't follow the minor leagues, don't make the assertion that Viciedo could compete for DH next season.

Edit: and I think smart people can make stupid posts. No one's above that.

:rolleyes:

Craig Grebeck
10-14-2009, 02:25 PM
:rolleyes:
Listen, I know you were passing along the opinion of Laumann, I'm just saying it's a pipe-dream.

sox1970
10-14-2009, 02:34 PM
Listen, I know you were passing along the opinion of Laumann, I'm just saying it's a pipe-dream.

You're the expert. There should be a separate thread--Ask Craig Grebeck.

You have all the answers.

Craig Grebeck
10-14-2009, 02:35 PM
You're the expert. There should be a separate thread--Ask Craig Grebeck.

You have all the answers.
I gave my reasoning for why it's wrongheaded to believe Viciedo can compete for a spot in 2010. It's an opinion. Give me the reasoning for your assertion that he could compete, other than the fact that Doug Laumann said it.

SI1020
10-14-2009, 02:36 PM
Okay. I think it was a stupid post. If you don't follow the minor leagues, don't make the assertion that Viciedo could compete for DH next season.

Edit: and I think smart people can make stupid posts. No one's above that. Really? Then why did you get so upset when I posted this?



He's also quite the drama queen. Fouled a pitch off his lower leg and took about 15 minutes to get up. I thought he had broke something. He took his position the next inning and if you hadn't seen his previous AB you'd never guess what had happened. That being said I am in no way writing him off. He showed me some plate discipline and some good instincts in the field despite the errors. I'd call him a diamond in the rough project that needs lots of work and more than a little maturing. At this point I would not call him a bust.




Wow. He took a while to get up after fouling a ball off his leg. How can anyone argue against this much logic?


Anyone that does should just stop watching baseball.



I'm assuming you weren't at the game in question. I have never seen anyone ham it up like Viciedo did. I'm sure it hurt and it stung. Baseballs do that when coming in contact with flesh and muscle. Viciedo is given to histronics of various types from time to time. All I was trying to say. That and I think he's not a sure bet but does have potential. I don't see why there should be a major problem.



You called the guy a drama queen. Don't act like that is somehow equitable with "given to histronics (sic) of various types from time to time."


Apparently you're a big fan and take offense to any criticism of this young player. That's fine. Drama queen and given to histronics are not contradictory in my view. Anyway I'm done. Stay mad if you like. I hope Viciedo pans out and will try to see him play again next year.

I guess I lied about being done but didn't you change your tune somewhat about Viciedo or am I imagining things?

Craig Grebeck
10-14-2009, 02:39 PM
Really? Then why did you get so upset when I posted this?





















I guess I lied about being done but didn't you change your tune somewhat about Viciedo or am I imagining things?
Is there really some connection for chiding a post that terms an athlete a "drama queen" and chiding a post for wrongfully asserting the same athlete can compete for a starting spot in 2010? I thought it was foolish to use such harsh language because a guy fouled a ball off his leg and felt some pain.

Lip Man 1
10-14-2009, 03:23 PM
A member of the mainstream media also told me recently they thought he'd be on the Sox major league roster next year perhaps as soon as opening day for what that may be worth.

Lip

Craig Grebeck
10-14-2009, 03:24 PM
A member of the mainstream media also told me recently they thought he'd be on the Sox major league roster next year perhaps as soon as opening day for what that may be worth.

Lip
Sorry guys, just can't see it. This would make no sense from any viewpoint. This "member of the mainstream media" needs to check his sources.

Seriously, someone please explain to me what value Viciedo could possibly provide this ballclub.

DirtySox
10-14-2009, 03:39 PM
Oooh. I missed the turn that this thread made.

This was discussed in the Dayan thread in the minor league forum after Lip enlightened us with more gold from his "sources."

I will just quote myself:

Yes. Since he was paid alot he needs to play in the Bigs. Forget the fact that he doesn't have a position, has horrendous plate discipline, struggles mightily with pitch recognition, and is reportedly still out of shape.

Unless everything all of a sudden comes together for him in the AFL and the first half of next season, he will not be in Chicago.

The kid still has potential, but to have him playing in the Pros after an underwhelming year with an abundance of things to work on would be moronic.

Ranger
10-14-2009, 03:41 PM
It was very bad. Do you think Doug Laumann is going to be the most objective observer? Of course he's going to do the PR thing and say Dayan was impressive. We're talking about a kid who had one month with an OPS above .800, hit a frightening amount of ground balls, and didn't really show good pitch recognition at all. Sure, he has nice bat speed, but if anyone really believes in Laumann's assertion that he'll be competing for an opening day spot or needs only a half year in the minors, they've got some problems with gullibility.

First, I'm curious if you've seen him play for a significant amount of time. If not, where are you getting your information on Viciedo?

I believe the assertion is that he would get a chance to compete for a spot on the roster, not that he would make the club. I've spoken to Laumann several times over the years and he's not going to say a guy has a chance to make it if he doesn't have a chance to make it. Laumann was also candid in saying the likelihood of Viciedo playing third base at this level is small. So if he's doing the "PR thing," wouldn't he also be trying to convince you that Dayan Viciedo has the tools to be a major league shortstop?

Noneck
10-14-2009, 03:46 PM
Seriously, someone please explain to me what value Viciedo could possibly provide this ballclub.

He has already been paid 1/2 of his contact, 5m. The Sox will want to try to get a return on this investment.

Craig Grebeck
10-14-2009, 03:47 PM
First, I'm curious if you've seen him play for a significant amount of time. If not, where are you getting your information on Viciedo?

I believe the assertion is that he would get a chance to compete for a spot on the roster, not that he would make the club. I've spoken to Laumann several times over the years and he's not going to say a guy has a chance to make it if he doesn't have a chance to make it. Laumann was also candid in saying the likelihood of Viciedo playing third base at this level is small. So if he's doing the "PR thing," wouldn't he also be trying to convince you that Dayan Viciedo has the tools to be a major league shortstop?
Opinions of scouts, talent evaluators, contact percentages (line drives, groundballs, flyballs, etc.) statistics, etc. I'm not pulling this out of thin air. Very few people have been impressed with Viciedo.

I would say it is absolute PR fluff to even say he could compete for a spot on the roster. If Viciedo can compete for a spot on the 25-man roster, then so should about four or five other guys from Birmingham (each of whom will rightfully be sent back to the minor leagues).

If Laumann truly believes that Viciedo should compete for a spot on the roster next season, I've got no belief in his abilities. I understand his motivation in wanting to lie a little bit for the sake of PR -- it makes sense. Of course, if the situation outlined by DirtySox comes to fruition i.e. Viciedo makes absolutely remarkable progress in the AFL and offseason, I will amend my statements. But at this point I can't seen any reason to take his statements regarding Viciedo seriously.

Craig Grebeck
10-14-2009, 03:48 PM
He has already been paid 1/2 of his contact, 5m. The Sox will want to try to get a return on this investment.
The White Sox control him for six years. They don't need to hurry anything.

Edit: and also, hurrying him would be the worst thing they could do if they want a "return on this investment."

DirtySox
10-14-2009, 03:55 PM
Opinions of scouts, talent evaluators, contact percentages (line drives, groundballs, flyballs, etc.) statistics, etc. Very few people have been impressed with Viciedo.

This is quite true. I obsessively follow anything regarding the White Sox farm system and it's prospects, and the only positives I've seen written about Dayan include the phrases "Power potential" and "Bat Speed."

This isn't cherry picking of negatives, the majority of the information regarding Viciedo is overwhelmingly negative.

Craig Grebeck
10-14-2009, 03:57 PM
This is quite true. I obsessively follow anything regarding the White Sox farm system and it's prospects, and the only positives I've seen written about Dayan include the phrases "Power potential" and "Bat Speed."
And he has that potential. The guy can hit bombs to all fields and has incredible bat speed. He's oozing with projectability and talent -- which is all the more reason that he should be brought along very slowly. We've invested a lot, and if we want a solid return we shouldn't expect him in the majors until 2011 at the absolute earliest.

Lip Man 1
10-14-2009, 03:57 PM
Craig:

I'd be surpised if he's on the opening day roster myself however I wouldn't say the chances are zero.

Keep in mind this past April the Sox had such 'stellar' players as Wise, Anderson, Colon, Miller and Lillibridge on the team.

Lip

Craig Grebeck
10-14-2009, 04:01 PM
Craig:

I'd be surpised if he's on the opening day roster myself however I wouldn't say the chances are zero.

Keep in mind this past April the Sox had such 'stellar' players as Wise, Anderson, Colon, Miller and Lillibridge on the team.

Lip
Well I hope neither of us are disappointed come April.

EndemicSox
10-14-2009, 04:14 PM
I think Dye is the type of player that will excel as a DH. He will stay healthy(hopefully) and focused on one task. I suspect whichever team signs him as a DH(if that is what JD wants) will be pleasantly surprised by the .280+ 30+ HR's they get from him.

Ranger
10-14-2009, 06:37 PM
Opinions of scouts, talent evaluators, contact percentages (line drives, groundballs, flyballs, etc.) statistics, etc. I'm not pulling this out of thin air. Very few people have been impressed with Viciedo.

I would say it is absolute PR fluff to even say he could compete for a spot on the roster. If Viciedo can compete for a spot on the 25-man roster, then so should about four or five other guys from Birmingham (each of whom will rightfully be sent back to the minor leagues).

If Laumann truly believes that Viciedo should compete for a spot on the roster next season, I've got no belief in his abilities. I understand his motivation in wanting to lie a little bit for the sake of PR -- it makes sense. Of course, if the situation outlined by DirtySox comes to fruition i.e. Viciedo makes absolutely remarkable progress in the AFL and offseason, I will amend my statements. But at this point I can't seen any reason to take his statements regarding Viciedo seriously.

So you know, I wasn't attacking your point, I was wondering what you were referencing when you discuss him. However, I think it's not really accurate to say people have not been impressed by him. The overall assessment of him is that his bat isn't all that far off, but he could still use some work.

Craig Grebeck
10-14-2009, 06:43 PM
So you know, I wasn't attacking your point, I was wondering what you were referencing when you discuss him. However, I think it's not really accurate to say people have not been impressed by him. The overall assessment of him is that his bat isn't all that far off, but he could still use some work.
I would love to be linked to a talent evaluator that would characterize his bat as "not all that far off." Honest. I'd be encouraged by it. I just haven't seen any reports that say that.

Given the returns on his defense, he better be not that far off from corner production, which is asking a ton from a guy his age.

Ranger
10-14-2009, 09:11 PM
I would love to be linked to a talent evaluator that would characterize his bat as "not all that far off." Honest. I'd be encouraged by it. I just haven't seen any reports that say that.

Given the returns on his defense, he better be not that far off from corner production, which is asking a ton from a guy his age.

It's not from published "reports." It's from people I've spoken to...not necessarily Doug Laumann. You can go with who you like, but I'm gonna go with them.

CWSpalehoseCWS
10-14-2009, 09:27 PM
I don't see how Viciedo is ready. It took him quite a while to get going this season, and that was Double-A. I'd let him play all next year in Charlotte and maybe a Sept call-up. He needs more plate discipline, IMO. I'd hate to see him rushed, as he is not another Beckham.

Craig Grebeck
10-15-2009, 03:11 AM
It's not from published "reports." It's from people I've spoken to...not necessarily Doug Laumann. You can go with who you like, but I'm gonna go with them.
Come on Rongey. Looking at his offensive performance this season -- his batted ball rates, his splits, his strike zone control, his slash lines, any statistic at all -- do you really feel he's not that far off? How can we be expected to have a rational discussion if you just hide behind the "people I've talked to" argument?

Ranger
10-15-2009, 04:46 AM
Come on Rongey. Looking at his offensive performance this season -- his batted ball rates, his splits, his strike zone control, his slash lines, any statistic at all -- do you really feel he's not that far off? How can we be expected to have a rational discussion if you just hide behind the "people I've talked to" argument?

You're right. You must know more than everyone else (including the people who watch him everyday and the people responsible for recommending his promotion) because, ya know, you've seen his splits. I apologize.

Craig Grebeck
10-15-2009, 04:58 AM
You're right. You must know more than everyone else (including the people who watch him everyday and the people responsible for recommending his promotion) because, ya know, you've seen his splits. I apologize.
There is overwhelming statistical evidence that Viciedo is not anywhere near ready for the major league level. That's not even a strike against him, I still think he's one of our four or five best prospects. All you have said is that people who have seen him think he's ready -- people you've talked to. I'm sorry if your evidence doesn't exactly bowl me over.

And thanks for the condescending remark regarding the statistical evidence (which yes, includes splits! OMG splits!) that I've cited as evidence for Viciedo's lack of readiness. So, please, once again, do you have any evidence other than people you've talked to think he's not far off?

Ranger
10-15-2009, 05:23 AM
There is overwhelming statistical evidence that Viciedo is not anywhere near ready for the major league level. That's not even a strike against him, I still think he's one of our four or five best prospects. All you have said is that people who have seen him think he's ready -- people you've talked to. I'm sorry if your evidence doesn't exactly bowl me over.

And thanks for the condescending remark regarding the statistical evidence (which yes, includes splits! OMG splits!) that I've cited as evidence for Viciedo's lack of readiness. So, please, once again, do you have any evidence other than people you've talked to think he's not far off?

Hey, man, I've already conceded. Dayan Viciedo's statistics are the best indication of whether he's ready to be here. I'm sorry if I respect the opinions of those who see him play everyday (and, again, those who have the job of helping determine whether he gets promoted) over your opinion.

Obviously, it was a mistake on my part. Just as it was a mistake to assume Brian Anderson's .295/.360/.469 line in '05 meant he was ready to be a big leaguer. Or Wise's (everyone's favorite target) OPS of .967 in '08.

In all honesty, I'm not saying Viciedo is ready to be here. But if those who are responsible for the development/promotion of the player think he is ready, it's tough for me to argue against it since I don't watch him every day. I don't know if he'll be here next year or not (though I'm inclined to think he won't) but I am aware there is more to it than statistics.

And by the way, I would consider it to be pretty good evidence if those within the organization think he's ready. Because, generally, I'm pretty sure they know what they're talking about.

Craig Grebeck
10-15-2009, 06:05 AM
And by the way, I would consider it to be pretty good evidence if those within the organization think he's ready. Because, generally, I'm pretty sure they know what they're talking about.
And I'm saying that if they think a DH who struggled to post adequate numbers in AA is ready for the major leagues they don't know what they're talking about.

Obviously, it was a mistake on my part. Just as it was a mistake to assume Brian Anderson's .295/.360/.469 line in '05 meant he was ready to be a big leaguer. Or Wise's (everyone's favorite target) OPS of .967 in '08.

What does this have to do with anything? Apples and oranges.

Edit: and my point is that while there is more to it than statistics, Viciedo would have to be an other-worldly defensive player to justify playing at the major league level anytime soon. What could they possibly see that isn't shown by statistics? Plate discipline? No, his K/BB ratio shows he doesn't understand the strike zone. A skill for line drives? No, his batted ball rates show that he hits a ton of ground balls.

I believe in Dayan as a prospect, but not next season. That's insane and I've seen no compelling argument that says otherwise.

Jim Shorts
10-15-2009, 10:28 AM
I wanna party with you guys.

kevingrt
10-15-2009, 10:34 AM
Instead of making a new topic if you could get Thome and Dye at the same price for a one year contract next year who would you rather see we resign and bring back to DH?

Or would you like to see us go after someone like a Reed Johnson, Endy Chavez or Rocco Baldelli to start in RF and have Pods be our DH?

Thoughts.

Craig Grebeck
10-15-2009, 11:09 AM
Instead of making a new topic if you could get Thome and Dye at the same price for a one year contract next year who would you rather see we resign and bring back to DH?
Thome


Or would you like to see us go after someone like a Reed Johnson, Endy Chavez or Rocco Baldelli to start in RF and have Pods be our DH?

I just shoved a pencil in my eye.

SI1020
10-15-2009, 12:57 PM
I do agree with Craig Grebeck's contention on this thread that Viciedo is not close to ready. I'm another nobody here without impressive credentials and my sources are few. I've never heard, seen or read somewhere that he should be ready to make the team coming out of spring training next year. If you've seen him play, there are flashes of brilliance. He really did improve in the second half of the past season, but not enough to convince me that he should be anywhere but back in AA to start the next season. Give him time to mature baseball and personality wise.

Noneck
10-15-2009, 02:15 PM
Both Lip's and rangers sources ( I assume they are different sources) are saying there is a chance Viciedo will be up with the club next year. I have no sources but the stats that anyone can see, show he is not ready. I still think that one of the reasons he is being touted is because of the money. It just doesn't fit the Sox way of doing things, to pay a guy 6.25M, which is 62.5% of his contract, to play in the minors.

soxinem1
10-15-2009, 02:45 PM
Both Lip's and rangers sources ( I assume they are different sources) are saying there is a chance Viciedo will be up with the club next year. I have no sources but the stats that anyone can see, show he is not ready. I still think that one of the reasons he is being touted is because of the money. It just doesn't fit the Sox way of doing things, to pay a guy 6.25M, which is 62.5% of his contract, to play in the minors.

I agree. This guy was given a major-league contract and if he spends the 2010 season in AAA it will mean we've wasted two years on him. If those who evaluate him say he sucks or a wasted signing, KW will not be happy even if it is true.

The thing I always found curious about this guy is that he sounds eerilly similar to Carlos Lee, who also played 3B in the minors and did it so well he was put in LF. I cannot see Viciedo playing 3B at the MLB level for long, if at all.

He may still turn out to be a player, but when I read (before he was signed) he tended to put on weight and get lazy I wondered why we were giving a 20-year old this kind of money, regardless of his potential.

And back to the topic, I would pick Dye to rebound at a big discount for the 2010 season.

soxinem1
10-15-2009, 02:48 PM
Instead of making a new topic if you could get Thome and Dye at the same price for a one year contract next year who would you rather see we resign and bring back to DH?

Or would you like to see us go after someone like a Reed Johnson, Endy Chavez or Rocco Baldelli to start in RF and have Pods be our DH?

Thoughts.

http://www.tvworthwatching.com/werts/janet-leigh-psycho.jpg

Craig Grebeck
10-15-2009, 02:53 PM
Both Lip's and rangers sources ( I assume they are different sources) are saying there is a chance Viciedo will be up with the club next year. I have no sources but the stats that anyone can see, show he is not ready. I still think that one of the reasons he is being touted is because of the money. It just doesn't fit the Sox way of doing things, to pay a guy 6.25M, which is 62.5% of his contract, to play in the minors.
It doesn't fit their way of doing things to give a guy a spot on the major league roster long before he's ready.
I agree. This guy was given a major-league contract and if he spends the 2010 season in AAA it will mean we've wasted two years on him. If those who evaluate him say he sucks or a wasted signing, KW will not be happy even if it is true.

The thing I always found curious about this guy is that he sounds eerilly similar to Carlos Lee, who also played 3B in the minors and did it so well he was put in LF. I cannot see Viciedo playing 3B at the MLB level for long, if at all.

He may still turn out to be a player, but when I read (before he was signed) he tended to put on weight and get lazy I wondered why we were giving a 20-year old this kind of money, regardless of his potential.

And back to the topic, I would pick Dye to rebound at a big discount for the 2010 season.
They haven't wasted any time on him. They control him for six seasons just like any other player.

Lip Man 1
10-15-2009, 11:40 PM
Boone Logan...a player who was rushed to the big leagues long before he was ready.

The Sox have done it in the past.

Lip

Daver
10-15-2009, 11:52 PM
Boone Logan...a player who was rushed to the big leagues long before he was ready.

The Sox have done it in the past.

Lip

The Sox have a long rich history of ruining players' development by bringing them up far too soon.

Domeshot17
10-16-2009, 03:12 AM
The Rongey Grebeck debate is a tough one. I get Ranger can't really reveal all his sources to a message board, so he can't say everything. That said, I haven't heard anything positive from a published reports on Dayan. I know he had a better (but not all that great) 2nd half. I know Baseball America and I think either Law or Caple from ESPN (I forget who honestly, could have been olney for all I know) were really not impressed, but they don't see him everyday.

That said, The end result for me was when Ranger said he trusts the guys pushing for Dayan to be promoted. I hope he is right, but nothing in the past 10 years say the White Sox know anything about when to promote prospects. The only guy who has come up and really given us anything that we produced is Beckham, and he was up here out of sheer desperation, and his talent moreso than the 40 or so at bats he got in the minors impacted his ability to stick. I know we have been making big changes in our minor league system, just hoping to see some results for a change and not some more busts.

soxinem1
10-16-2009, 10:17 PM
It doesn't fit their way of doing things to give a guy a spot on the major league roster long before he's ready.

This is false. They have at least a 30-year history of rushing players to the big leagues.

They haven't wasted any time on him. They control him for six seasons just like any other player.

I did not say wasting time. But giving a guy a multi-million dollar contract to play mediocre in AA and clearly shows he is not ready yet for the big time. If he was, Ozzie would have asked for him to be promoted like he did for Beckham.

I'm all for developing from within and giving your guys a chance to advance through the organization. But KW previously stated that this guy's bat was MLB ready when it clearly is not. Thus relying on him to DH is foolhardy.

oeo
10-16-2009, 10:27 PM
did not say wasting time. But giving a guy a multi-million dollar contract to play mediocre in AA and clearly shows he is not ready yet for the big time. If he was, Ozzie would have asked for him to be promoted like he did for Beckham.

How is it any different than giving a player out of the draft a big bonus (which a lot of people bitch about the Sox never doing)? He's 20 years old and was playing in AA, improved a lot over the course of the year. I see no reason why they wouldn't be happy with where he's at.

Tragg
10-16-2009, 10:41 PM
The Rongey Grebeck debate is a tough one. I get Ranger can't really reveal all his sources to a message board
He hasn't revealed any of them. At its core, this is Otis in the scouting venue versus projecting minor league stats to the majors.
Now the man is in the media I think so he probably has some excellent sources, but it would be nice to read a positive evaluation.

soxinem1
10-16-2009, 11:13 PM
How is it any different than giving a player out of the draft a big bonus (which a lot of people bitch about the Sox never doing)? He's 20 years old and was playing in AA, improved a lot over the course of the year. I see no reason why they wouldn't be happy with where he's at.

I am always in favor of bringing up players from the minors, but not to be counted on to be a key cog in the lineup, especially if this team hopes to contend next year.

In this offense, they will need a proven hitter to be DH.

And for all the hype he was given, his production was not solid enough to warrant a promotion. It seems they want to rush him because of the investment made in the player, when right now it looks as if his 30 errors are about the only thing that would fit in with this squad.

voodoochile
10-16-2009, 11:43 PM
How is it any different than giving a player out of the draft a big bonus (which a lot of people bitch about the Sox never doing)? He's 20 years old and was playing in AA, improved a lot over the course of the year. I see no reason why they wouldn't be happy with where he's at.

That's the part I don't get either. At the end of next year he will have been paid about the same as Joe Borchard was after 2 years in the minors (most of Joe's coming in the form of a bonus paid up front).

Still, the money while high for a minor leaguer is comparable to what high draft picks get for signing. If this guy has that kind of talent then the rest doesn't matter.

I hope he develops too, but if he doesn't get to the big league club until mid-2011 it won't be a huge issue, IMO.

He'll still only be 22 at that time...

Domeshot17
10-17-2009, 12:10 AM
That's the part I don't get either. At the end of next year he will have been paid about the same as Joe Borchard was after 2 years in the minors (most of Joe's coming in the form of a bonus paid up front).

Still, the money while high for a minor leaguer is comparable to what high draft picks get for signing. If this guy has that kind of talent then the rest doesn't matter.

I hope he develops too, but if he doesn't get to the big league club until mid-2011 it won't be a huge issue, IMO.

He'll still only be 22 at that time...

Someone stop the press, I actually agree with Voodoo and OEO about something. I have no problem with the deal given to Dayan because we control his arby rights. It really was like a bonus draft pick.

munchman33
10-17-2009, 08:37 AM
Someone stop the press, I actually agree with Voodoo and OEO about something. I have no problem with the deal given to Dayan because we control his arby rights. It really was like a bonus draft pick.

There's one major problem with this, I believe. I could be wrong, but I thought his contact was a Major League deal. Meaning his arbitration clock has been moving even though he hasn't been on the big league club. Say he spends all four years of his current deal in the minors. We paid $10 million for a shot at 2 years of arbitration on a guy? Regardless of when he comes up, he's a free agent after 2014.

Not that I didn't like his signing, or that I don't still like it now. That's just the potential downside. I do believe between his second half and his AFL performance, he'll start getting a little more recognition.

Pablo_Honey
10-17-2009, 11:11 AM
There's one major problem with this, I believe. I could be wrong, but I thought his contact was a Major League deal. Meaning his arbitration clock has been moving even though he hasn't been on the big league club. Say he spends all four years of his current deal in the minors. We paid $10 million for a shot at 2 years of arbitration on a guy? Regardless of when he comes up, he's a free agent after 2014.

No, not really. Major League Contract means Viciedo has to be put on 40-man, gets pre-determined salary for the duration of the contract and Sox have to use options to send him to minors. Other than that, we control Viciedo like any other draftees. The earliest Viciedo could hit FA is 2016, I believe, if he is on 25-man next season, but I seriously doubt he will be here next season.

munchman33
10-17-2009, 11:21 AM
No, not really. Major League Contract means Viciedo has to be put on 40-man, gets pre-determined salary for the duration of the contract and Sox have to use options to send him to minors. Other than that, we control Viciedo like any other draftees. The earliest Viciedo could hit FA is 2016, I believe, if he is on 25-man next season, but I seriously doubt he will be here next season.

If you're right, then even better.

MisterB
10-17-2009, 01:32 PM
No, not really. Major League Contract means Viciedo has to be put on 40-man, gets pre-determined salary for the duration of the contract and Sox have to use options to send him to minors. Other than that, we control Viciedo like any other draftees. The earliest Viciedo could hit FA is 2016, I believe, if he is on 25-man next season, but I seriously doubt he will be here next season.

Correct. The net effect is the same as if the Sox had put him on the 40-man roster and then optioned him to AA. He still has 2 more option years, and his arbitration clock doesn't start until he actually plays in the majors.

Ranger
10-18-2009, 03:59 PM
The Rongey Grebeck debate is a tough one. I get Ranger can't really reveal all his sources to a message board, so he can't say everything. That said, I haven't heard anything positive from a published reports on Dayan. I know he had a better (but not all that great) 2nd half. I know Baseball America and I think either Law or Caple from ESPN (I forget who honestly, could have been olney for all I know) were really not impressed, but they don't see him everyday.

That said, The end result for me was when Ranger said he trusts the guys pushing for Dayan to be promoted. I hope he is right, but nothing in the past 10 years say the White Sox know anything about when to promote prospects. The only guy who has come up and really given us anything that we produced is Beckham, and he was up here out of sheer desperation, and his talent moreso than the 40 or so at bats he got in the minors impacted his ability to stick. I know we have been making big changes in our minor league system, just hoping to see some results for a change and not some more busts.

Let me just reiterate that what I understand on Viciedo is that his bat may not be all that far off from being ready, HOWEVER, I don't believe I've heard anyone say that he IS ready at this moment. The original point that should not get lost is that I believe he will get a spring training opportunity to make the roster, but I honestly don't think that he will make it. Maybe later on in the year, if necessary, but I would be surprised if he makes the team to start the year.

I think this debate started with the idea that he will get a "chance" to compete, not that he would be given a job. If I remember right, someone here couldn't believe that he would be given a chance. It looks like he will (barring an acquisition) I really don't think Viciedo is the route they're going just yet.

Red Barchetta
10-18-2009, 05:10 PM
Let me just reiterate that what I understand on Viciedo is that his bat may not be all that far off from being ready, HOWEVER, I don't believe I've heard anyone say that he IS ready at this moment. The original point that should not get lost is that I believe he will get a spring training opportunity to make the roster, but I honestly don't think that he will make it. Maybe later on in the year, if necessary, but I would be surprised if he makes the team to start the year.

I think this debate started with the idea that he will get a "chance" to compete, not that he would be given a job. If I remember right, someone here couldn't believe that he would be given a chance. It looks like he will (barring an acquisition) I really don't think Viciedo is the route they're going just yet.


I agree. Last I heard is that they are considering moving him to 1B. If so, I expect him more in 2011 and perhaps moving Paulie to DH/1B split.

I could see the SOX signing Thome again for a 1 year deal if they can't find another LH bat.