PDA

View Full Version : Bobby Jenks Non-Tendered???


Rockabilly
10-08-2009, 05:50 PM
According to Jayson Stark. He believes that Bobby will be tough to trade this off season and the Sox just might let him go for nothing.

This is a load of crap!!!!!!!

sox1970
10-08-2009, 05:57 PM
I think Bobby will be traded in November....and it won't be for much. And if it is for a good player, he'll be part of a package.

DickAllen72
10-08-2009, 05:57 PM
According to Jayson Stark. He believes that Bobby will be tough to trade this off season and the Sox just might let him go for nothing.

This is a load of crap!!!!!!!
Yes it is. Don't worry about it. (I mean the non-tendering part.)

Rockabilly
10-08-2009, 05:58 PM
I think Bobby will be traded in November....and it won't be for much. And if it is for a good player, he'll be part of a package.


what do you think we can get for Bobby?

sox1970
10-08-2009, 06:01 PM
what do you think we can get for Bobby?

One-for-one, maybe a middle range prospect or two.

The Rays are looking for a closer. Maybe we sweeten the pot, and get BJ Upton.

Rockabilly
10-08-2009, 06:04 PM
One-for-one, maybe a middle range prospect or two.

The Rays are looking for a closer. Maybe we sweeten the pot, and get BJ Upton.


Would love to see Upton in a Sox uniform..

Foulke You
10-08-2009, 06:08 PM
Would love to see Upton in a Sox uniform..
Quentin, Upton, and Rios would be a heck of an outfield. Much better defensively too than anything we've had recently. I agree that it would likely take more than Bobby Jenks to get Upton. How about we throw in Josh Fields?

doublem23
10-08-2009, 06:09 PM
Would love to see Upton in a Sox uniform..

Yeah, he and Rios can spend all time talking about how great it is to have ****loads of talent, huge contracts, and half-ass it.

.241/.313/.373 this year. And people though Jim Thome was a problem.

Hitmen77
10-08-2009, 06:15 PM
What's The Score?

LoveYourSuit
10-08-2009, 06:48 PM
Sadly the offseason to have moved Jenks would have been last year.

oeo
10-08-2009, 07:02 PM
Kenny tried to move him last year, can't fault him there.

Bobby could not retire left-handers this year, which is a red flag. I'd rather not risk the $7 or $8 million he's going to cost us.

sullythered
10-08-2009, 07:20 PM
I can promise this: All the people around here champing at the bit to get rid of Bobby Jenks will surely miss him once he is gone.

We do not have a legitimate back-up plan for closer. You need a real closer to win a championship (almost always).

Matt Thornton has been a very good lefty set up guy for 2 seasons, but Bobby is significantly better than him in about every statistical category over the course of their careers. Most importantly, he has proven he can close.

People always seem to forget that until a guy proves he can be a full time closer, nobody has any idea if they can do it.

It is wholely possible Matt Thornton might be LaTroy Hawkins or Scott Linebrink (2008) if he gets tossed into the closers role.

If we plan on competing for a title next season, we had better keep Bobby, or get somebody we know for a fact can close.

asindc
10-08-2009, 07:34 PM
I can promise this: All the people around here champing at the bit to get rid of Bobby Jenks will surely miss him once he is gone.

We do not have a legitimate back-up plan for closer. You need a real closer to win a championship (almost always).

Matt Thornton has been a very good lefty set up guy for 2 seasons, but Bobby is significantly better than him in about every statistical category over the course of their careers. Most importantly, he has proven he can close.

People always seem to forget that until a guy proves he can be a full time closer, nobody has any idea if they can do it.

It is wholely possible Matt Thornton might be LaTroy Hawkins or Scott Linebrink (2008) if he gets tossed into the closers role.

If we plan on competing for a title next season, we had better keep Bobby, or get somebody we know for a fact can close.

I agree 100%.

Madscout
10-08-2009, 07:42 PM
I can promise this: All the people around here champing at the bit to get rid of Bobby Jenks will surely miss him once he is gone.

We do not have a legitimate back-up plan for closer. You need a real closer to win a championship (almost always).

Matt Thornton has been a very good lefty set up guy for 2 seasons, but Bobby is significantly better than him in about every statistical category over the course of their careers. Most importantly, he has proven he can close.

People always seem to forget that until a guy proves he can be a full time closer, nobody has any idea if they can do it.

It is wholely possible Matt Thornton might be LaTroy Hawkins or Scott Linebrink (2008) if he gets tossed into the closers role.

If we plan on competing for a title next season, we had better keep Bobby, or get somebody we know for a fact can close.That's the risk you take. But is Bobby the best we can do? How come other teams come up with these great closers (Nathan, K-Rod, The Sandman, Papelbon), who stay dominant for years, yet others are great for a small amount of time, or have one good year? Bobby has petered off, at least in the last couple. Is it really that hard to find a legit closer?

sullythered
10-08-2009, 08:01 PM
That's the risk you take. But is Bobby the best we can do? How come other teams come up with these great closers (Nathan, K-Rod, The Sandman, Papelbon), who stay dominant for years, yet others are great for a small amount of time, or have one good year? Bobby has petered off, at least in the last couple. Is it really that hard to find a legit closer?
For what it's worth, Bobby has converted on a better percentage of his save opportunities throughout his career than K-Rod.

And last year they were about the same.

Brian26
10-08-2009, 08:07 PM
what do you think we can get for Bobby?

Not much. Kenny, unfortunately, waited a year too late to trade him.

KyWhiSoxFan
10-08-2009, 08:21 PM
Not much. Kenny, unfortunately, waited a year too late to trade him.

That may be, but you only need two teams interested to get something decent in return. We'll see.

Scottiehaswheels
10-08-2009, 08:28 PM
Yeah, he and Rios can spend all time talking about how great it is to have ****loads of talent, huge contracts, and half-ass it.

.241/.313/.373 this year. And people though Jim Thome was a problem.Not to disagree with you but he played hurt for a good portion of the season. He didn't get spring training.

soxinem1
10-08-2009, 08:56 PM
TAM can keep Upton. He is a disinterested loaf.

As far as Jenks is concerned, I feel like this:

A closer is probably the easiest major position on your team to fill, and they come and go. But to dump on Jenks so hard is not really fair. Especially after July his save opportunites were so sporadic that it was tough for the big guy to get consistent work, even in mop-up times.

Now true, I do believe Jenks has had late-season issues since 2006, and his second halves have paled in comparison to his first halves.

I think what Coop needs to do is show this Bobby the life story of the last three 'Bob's' who closed for the White Sox:

Bob James, who ate his way out of MLB and pissed away a nice career (and much $$$$).

Bob Thigpen, who burned out way too early.

Roberto Hernandez, who took good care of himself and remained an effective pitcher well into his 40's.

Jenks needs to commit himself to his craft and stay focused and prepared both mentally and physically for an ENTIRE season.

Getting his snap-dragon curve ball back would probably help a lot too.

Martinigirl
10-08-2009, 09:08 PM
A closer is probably the easiest major position on your team to fill.

Really? I bet there are a lot of GMs in baseball would love to have you tell them how easy it is.

slavko
10-08-2009, 10:03 PM
For what it's worth, Bobby has converted on a better percentage of his save opportunities throughout his career than K-Rod.

And last year they were about the same.

That was then, this is now. And unfortunately, now looks a lot like a closer in decline, if we can believe our eyes. At least an unproven closer has a chance of being on the way up. What do you do, turn the job over to a "Kevin Gregg" type? Or leave it with Bobby who looked a lot like Kevin Gregg as the year wore on.

It's not a pleasant choice, but a flame thrower in the farm system would make the choice easier. That's where a team develops talent to replace fading veterans, if you're not familiar with the concept.

oeo
10-08-2009, 10:48 PM
I can promise this: All the people around here champing at the bit to get rid of Bobby Jenks will surely miss him once he is gone.

We do not have a legitimate back-up plan for closer. You need a real closer to win a championship (almost always).

We won a championship with Shingo Takatsu, Dustin Hermanson, and a rookie named Bobby Jenks closing games. David Aardsma and Mike MacDougal combined for 58 saves this year. New closers pop up every single year. It really isn't that difficult to find a closer. Just because teams like the Cubs and Indians throw retreads out there every year and fail miserably does not mean it's a difficult "position" to fill. Find a guy with a couple of pitches, preferably a plus fastball, and the mental capacity and you have a closer.

And it's not about chomping at the bit. Bobby is going to come at a hefty price, and appears to be declining or something. This was not a very good year. .309/.362/.500 was his line against lefties. Sorry, that's not closer material.

Boondock Saint
10-08-2009, 11:02 PM
We won a championship with Shingo Takatsu, Dustin Hermanson, and a rookie named Bobby Jenks closing games. David Aardsma and Mike MacDougal combined for 58 saves this year. New closers pop up every single year. It really isn't that difficult to find a closer. Just because teams like the Cubs and Indians throw retreads out there every year and fail miserably does not mean it's a difficult "position" to fill. Find a guy with a couple of pitches, preferably a plus fastball, and the mental capacity and you have a closer.

And it's not about chomping at the bit. Bobby is going to come at a hefty price, and appears to be declining or something. This was not a very good year. .309/.362/.500 was his line against lefties. Sorry, that's not closer material.

The difference between these guys and Bobby is that none of those guys have come anywhere near being one save shy of four consecutive 30+ save seasons. Bobby has a pretty good track record, and I don't think one below average season is a good enough reason to sell low on him.

TheBigHurtST
10-08-2009, 11:34 PM
I can promise this: All the people around here champing at the bit to get rid of Bobby Jenks will surely miss him once he is gone.

We do not have a legitimate back-up plan for closer. You need a real closer to win a championship (almost always).

Matt Thornton has been a very good lefty set up guy for 2 seasons, but Bobby is significantly better than him in about every statistical category over the course of their careers. Most importantly, he has proven he can close.

People always seem to forget that until a guy proves he can be a full time closer, nobody has any idea if they can do it.

It is wholely possible Matt Thornton might be LaTroy Hawkins or Scott Linebrink (2008) if he gets tossed into the closers role.

If we plan on competing for a title next season, we had better keep Bobby, or get somebody we know for a fact can close.

I understand where you are coming from, but Bobby's effectiveness has been steadily declining each year. IMO, he hasn't had good stuff since 2006. It's amazing to me he's had good years since then.

oeo
10-08-2009, 11:54 PM
The difference between these guys and Bobby is that none of those guys have come anywhere near being one save shy of four consecutive 30+ save seasons. Bobby has a pretty good track record, and I don't think one below average season is a good enough reason to sell low on him.

My point is, you don't need a track record. Guys pop up as closers every year. Hell, Jenks was one of them four years ago. Why should we pay $7-8 million when we can get the job done cheaply?

I understand where you are coming from, but Bobby's effectiveness has been steadily declining each year. IMO, he hasn't had good stuff since 2006. It's amazing to me he's had good years since then.

2006 was his worst year before 2009...

Why was his stuff better? Because he was throwing his fastball at 100? Striking guys out? How about the other numbers? More walks, hits, homeruns, and worst of all: runs. Bobby was a worse pitcher when he was throwing in triple digits.

All the hoopla over his fastball has always been way overblown. There's reason for alarm now that he apparently can't retire a left-handed hitter and is throwing more fly balls than ground balls.

Boondock Saint
10-09-2009, 12:03 AM
My point is, you don't need a track record. Guys pop up as closers every year. Hell, Jenks was one of them four years ago.

I would rather keep the guy with the track record that's already under our control, and spend whatever spare money is left on fixing up the rest of the bullpen with one or two new guys than let Bobby walk and have to compete with every other team in baseball for the services of two or more bullpen arms.

Lip Man 1
10-09-2009, 12:47 AM
Well in 2007 the White Sox didn't get the job done by going cheap in the bullpen that's for sure. The White Sox welcomed pitchers like Nick Masset, Boone Logan, David Aardsma, Andy Sisco and call up’s Dewon Day and Ryan Bukvich. I'm sure I'm missing one or two other stiffs in the group because I'm trying hard to forget that complete year.

It was an unmitigated disaster.

Kenny went out, spent money, shored up the pen and it was markedly better in 2008 even WITH the injuries to Jenks and Linebrink.

Lip

oeo
10-09-2009, 12:53 AM
Well in 2007 the White Sox didn't get the job done by going cheap in the bullpen that's for sure. The White Sox welcomed pitchers like Nick Masset, Boone Logan, David Aardsma, Andy Sisco and call up’s Dewon Day and Ryan Bukvich. I'm sure I'm missing one or two other stiffs in the group because I'm trying hard to forget that complete year.

It was an unmitigated disaster.

Kenny went out, spent money, shored up the pen and it was markedly better in 2008 even WITH the injuries to Jenks and Linebrink.

Lip




It also gave us one of the worst contracts in recent Sox history.

The problem isn't so much the money, but is the money worth the results we're going to get. Jenks wasn't very good in 2009. What he did in 2009, IMO, is not worth $8 million.

doublem23
10-09-2009, 01:21 AM
Not to disagree with you but he played hurt for a good portion of the season. He didn't get spring training.

#2

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&page=starting9/090923

CWSpalehoseCWS
10-09-2009, 04:06 AM
I'd find it hard to believe the Sox would just let him go for nothing. I still think he's not going to be with the Sox next season, as I think they want Thornton in there, someone IMO that doesn't seem to have the mental aspect of a closer.

SOXSINCE'70
10-09-2009, 07:42 AM
Maybe we sweeten the pot, and get BJ Upton.

I don't trust Matt Thornton quite yet. But ,if the Sox were to trade Bobby Jenks, what about acquiring Carl Crawford??:dunno:

I know it might take more than Jenks. Just asking.

Gammons Peter
10-09-2009, 09:11 AM
Well in 2007 the White Sox didn't get the job done by going cheap in the bullpen that's for sure. The White Sox welcomed pitchers like Nick Masset, Boone Logan, David Aardsma, Andy Sisco and call up’s Dewon Day and Ryan Bukvich. I'm sure I'm missing one or two other stiffs in the group because I'm trying hard to forget that complete year.

It was an unmitigated disaster.

Kenny went out, spent money, shored up the pen and it was markedly better in 2008 even WITH the injuries to Jenks and Linebrink.

Lip





You are missing the biggest joke of all...and I think he's still in the system ....Wassermann

socko82
10-09-2009, 10:10 AM
I think they will non-tender him and then still try to sign him to a discounted deal with a weight clause in it. The other GM's all see the same thing that Kenny sees. A guy coming off a bad season, with fitness questions and looking at a $7 million arbitration number. I don't think they are going to get anything for him unless it is part of a blockbuster deal that involves taking someone else's bad contract. Most of the big money teams are set at closer and this winter is a buyer's market for closers. Free Agents: Mike Gonzalez, Jose Valverde, Rafael Soriano, and Fernando Rodney. Injury Risk Free Agents: Billy Wagner & JJ Putz. Guys who figure to be available in trade: Heath Bell, Francisco Cordero, Kerry Wood. For Cordero & Wood their current teams would probably eat part of their salary bringing their cost to under $7 mil for the team that would acquire them. Of the free agents the only one of these guys who sniffs $7 million is Valverde. I'm not debating if these guys are as good as Bobby, I'm simply saying teams are not going to give you any real talent for that salary when cheaper options are available.

seventyseven
10-09-2009, 10:24 AM
Consider me absolutely miffed that we would trade Jenks. He is still a top closer in the game. I cannot believe how much people are overreacting to a few bad performances in the 2nd half. :angry:

Lip Man 1
10-09-2009, 11:21 AM
More on Jenks:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1814948,CST-SPT-joe09.article

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1814936,CST-SPT-soxip09.article

and Sox:

Bob James's career was ended because of a knee injury he originally suffered in a game at Baltimore in 1985, the famous game that eventually led to Roland Hemond getting fired.

July 11, 1985 - The Sox blow a game and lose to the Orioles in Baltimore 7 - 6. The loss would have long term consequences for the franchise because it eventually led to the firing of longtime G.M. Roland Hemond. With two outs and the Sox leading 6 - 3, Bob James, the team closer hurt his right knee. In came journeyman relief pitcher Mike Stanton who was picked up out of the minors a few weeks before. Stanton didn’t get a man out and gave up a three run, game winning home run to Fred Lynn. Up in the broadcast booth, Sox announcers Don Drysdale and Ken “Hawk” Harrelson were openly questioning the organization if the ‘best’ they could do was Stanton. It planted the seed in the mind of ownership that a change was needed. That ‘change’ turned out to be Harrelson... named the new G.M. that off season. The rest as they say is history.

Lip

Nellie_Fox
10-09-2009, 11:24 AM
...what about acquiring Carl Crawford??Sure, and why not Pujols?

NLaloosh
10-09-2009, 11:37 AM
I can promise this: All the people around here champing at the bit to get rid of Bobby Jenks will surely miss him once he is gone.

We do not have a legitimate back-up plan for closer. You need a real closer to win a championship (almost always).

Matt Thornton has been a very good lefty set up guy for 2 seasons, but Bobby is significantly better than him in about every statistical category over the course of their careers. Most importantly, he has proven he can close.

People always seem to forget that until a guy proves he can be a full time closer, nobody has any idea if they can do it.

It is wholely possible Matt Thornton might be LaTroy Hawkins or Scott Linebrink (2008) if he gets tossed into the closers role.

If we plan on competing for a title next season, we had better keep Bobby, or get somebody we know for a fact can close.

DING DING DING!

Even if they want to move Thornton toward the closer role it would be good to keep Jenks around next year as a co-closer / set-up guy. He may not be an elite closer now but he is still an excellent relief pitcher and the Sox are short on those.

The Critic
10-09-2009, 11:51 AM
One-for-one, maybe a middle range prospect or two.

The Rays are looking for a closer. Maybe we sweeten the pot, and get BJ Upton.

I like your math!!
:redneck

slavko
10-09-2009, 12:11 PM
Found the Bob James reference in a Bobby Jenks thread interesting. Two guys with a tendency to put on pounds. I always thought James's leg problems were the result of too much upper body weight. His career didn't last much past that knee breakdown either.

Goose
10-09-2009, 12:28 PM
Sure, and why not Pujols?

A 3 way trade?!?! NOW there some some out-of-the-box thinking!

sox1970
10-09-2009, 12:51 PM
I like your math!!
:redneck

:D: Yeah, I thought about that later. Thanks for calling me on that.

I guess I meant if he were traded on his own.

pmck003
10-09-2009, 04:12 PM
TAM can keep Upton. He is a disinterested loaf.


I don't know about that. He had some injuries and a subsequent lineup demotion that he handled immaturely, and while that can't be ignored he is only 25. If Guillen/KW think they can deal with and/or that Upton will improve his attitude, I think Upton is worth more than Jenks on paper - gotta think the bottom estimates on his numbers would be some thing like a .370 OBP and 30 steals with a little pop. Those numbers would look pretty good on top of the order, and I assume a Rios/Upton CF/RF combo would be above average.

I know Upton had some problems with his manager in 2008 too, but if the Sox think a Guillen/Upton relationship would work I honestly wouldn't be upset with even a Jenks/Flowers like trade. The fact that he was upset with reduced playing time/drops in the order shows me he cares, though he needs to learn how to handle these things better if at least as to how the media portrays it.

mzh
10-09-2009, 04:22 PM
DING DING DING!

Even if they want to move Thornton toward the closer role it would be good to keep Jenks around next year as a co-closer / set-up guy. He may not be an elite closer now but he is still an excellent relief pitcher and the Sox are short on those.

IIRC, the Boston Red Sox (by the philosophy of Bill James no less) tried the idea of spreading out the role into several bullpen arms, and by the end of the year they had brought in Byung-Hyun Kim as a traditional closer. Point is, this has already been tried, and it is much safer to go with a "9th inning specialist"

Zisk77
10-09-2009, 05:29 PM
More on Jenks:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1814948,CST-SPT-joe09.article

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1814936,CST-SPT-soxip09.article

and Sox:

Bob James's career was ended because of a knee injury he originally suffered in a game at Baltimore in 1985, the famous game that eventually led to Roland Hemond getting fired.

July 11, 1985 - The Sox blow a game and lose to the Orioles in Baltimore 7 - 6. The loss would have long term consequences for the franchise because it eventually led to the firing of longtime G.M. Roland Hemond. With two outs and the Sox leading 6 - 3, Bob James, the team closer hurt his right knee. In came journeyman relief pitcher Mike Stanton who was picked up out of the minors a few weeks before. Stanton didn’t get a man out and gave up a three run, game winning home run to Fred Lynn. Up in the broadcast booth, Sox announcers Don Drysdale and Ken “Hawk” Harrelson were openly questioning the organization if the ‘best’ they could do was Stanton. It planted the seed in the mind of ownership that a change was needed. That ‘change’ turned out to be Harrelson... named the new G.M. that off season. The rest as they say is history.

Lip


Thanks lip, I especially enjoyed the first article.

i think I would do something quite unexpected with Bobby. I'd try to avoid arbitration and sign him long term. However there would be some stipulations in the contract. One I would hire some expert nutritionists/cooks to cook for Bobby year round. they would design diets of tasty food that he could eat large helpings but be low cal. He also would have to abide by a conditioning regimen. If he remained over a certain weight years could be voided.

My rationale is that there is nothing wrong with Bobby's stuff. In fact its better now than in 2005 despite the fact he doesn't throw 100mph anymore. However, now he can cut, sink, & ride what used to be a straight fastball. He needs to be consistent with his curve(which is a feel pitch & he was used quite sporadically last year) again. My biggest concern with Bobby is injury which is greatly increased with being overweight.

Sure this is a risk and wont be popular with some but i think it would be worth it. I wouldn't meess with the back end of the pen or our starting 5.

Brian26
10-09-2009, 07:39 PM
DING DING DING!

Even if they want to move Thornton toward the closer role it would be good to keep Jenks around next year as a co-closer / set-up guy. He may not be an elite closer now but he is still an excellent relief pitcher and the Sox are short on those.

And a completely overpaid one after the arbitration hearing, unfortunately.

Tragg
10-09-2009, 11:35 PM
I think Bobby will be traded in November....and it won't be for much. .
Then why bother?

Who does Williams have in mind to fill out the pen? Hopefully it's the 2 young guys - Hudson and the other guy. Don't need to use any more legitimate prospects to chase middle reliever quality talent.

soxinem1
10-10-2009, 12:08 AM
More on Jenks:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1814948,CST-SPT-joe09.article

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1814936,CST-SPT-soxip09.article

and Sox:

Bob James's career was ended because of a knee injury he originally suffered in a game at Baltimore in 1985, the famous game that eventually led to Roland Hemond getting fired.

July 11, 1985 - The Sox blow a game and lose to the Orioles in Baltimore 7 - 6. The loss would have long term consequences for the franchise because it eventually led to the firing of longtime G.M. Roland Hemond. With two outs and the Sox leading 6 - 3, Bob James, the team closer hurt his right knee. In came journeyman relief pitcher Mike Stanton who was picked up out of the minors a few weeks before. Stanton didn’t get a man out and gave up a three run, game winning home run to Fred Lynn. Up in the broadcast booth, Sox announcers Don Drysdale and Ken “Hawk” Harrelson were openly questioning the organization if the ‘best’ they could do was Stanton. It planted the seed in the mind of ownership that a change was needed. That ‘change’ turned out to be Harrelson... named the new G.M. that off season. The rest as they say is history.

Lip

Bob James came back that year and pitched well. He even pitched three innings for his then team record-breaking 31st save after coming back, then saved the last game of the year against SEA the next afternoon.

I watched that Sox-BAL game and remember my Mom getting ticked at me because of how much I swore at Stanton and LaRussa after Lynn hit the dinger. I also remember James knee going out in that game.

Yes his knee flared up again in the future, but weighing 300 lbs did not help.

Hawk was given the team before the season ended. And true, he did put together a nice bullpen in 1986, but left us with a weak rotation to start the year. He traded our best SP prospect Dave Schmidt, pulled Gene Nelson from starting and put him in the pen, plucked Bill Dawley off the scrap heap, dumped Juan Agosto on MIN and added LH's Joel McKeon and Ray Searage, who comined for an ERA of about 1.50 and were near impossible to hit.

But James struggled from day one in both 1986 and 1987, and I seem to remember LaRussa, Hawk, and Herm all saying James needed to lose weight to ease the burden on his knee.

oeo
10-10-2009, 12:27 AM
Then why bother?

$$$

Tragg
10-10-2009, 12:50 AM
$$$
Okay. I could see that.
How much are we talking about?

Lip Man 1
10-10-2009, 11:24 AM
Sox:

James was 6-4 when he played and weighed around 230 pounds. That's not very heavy in my opinion for a guy that tall. As you stated they were saying he needed to lose weight because of the knee injury suffered in 1985.

He came back after that July injury but was never the same pitcher. That was the key factor in his career ending, the knee injury...not the weight.

Lip

russ99
10-10-2009, 11:36 AM
I don't know about that. He had some injuries and a subsequent lineup demotion that he handled immaturely, and while that can't be ignored he is only 25. If Guillen/KW think they can deal with and/or that Upton will improve his attitude, I think Upton is worth more than Jenks on paper - gotta think the bottom estimates on his numbers would be some thing like a .370 OBP and 30 steals with a little pop. Those numbers would look pretty good on top of the order, and I assume a Rios/Upton CF/RF combo would be above average.

I know Upton had some problems with his manager in 2008 too, but if the Sox think a Guillen/Upton relationship would work I honestly wouldn't be upset with even a Jenks/Flowers like trade. The fact that he was upset with reduced playing time/drops in the order shows me he cares, though he needs to learn how to handle these things better if at least as to how the media portrays it.

I really think the Rays will keep Upton and move Crawford, either this offseason or at the deadline.

They just can't afford to pay him close to what he can get on the open market. They still have payroll constraints in Tampa, they can't spend like the Yankees and Red Sox, or Orioles and Blue Jays for that matter.

And Lip, thanks for reminding me about "Juan Disgusto" <shudder> :D:

soxinem1
10-10-2009, 11:59 AM
Sox:

James was 6-4 when he played and weighed around 230 pounds. That's not very heavy in my opinion for a guy that tall. As you stated they were saying he needed to lose weight because of the knee injury suffered in 1985.

He came back after that July injury but was never the same pitcher. That was the key factor in his career ending, the knee injury...not the weight.

Lip

And LaMarr Hoyt's playing weight was listed at 195 when even to his own admission he was more like 260.

Furthermore, James ERA was 1.93 at the time of the injury and he finished the season with a 2.13 mark. Take out one bad game against the NYY and he actually was better when he came back. He had 15 saves after the injury and 17 before it, so I do not see how he was worse.

I do think that his injury cost the team the division that year, as I believe there was only one or two saved ballgames by his pen-mates while he was out for three weeks.

I seem to remember LaRussa in ST 1986 and later Fregosi being very upset with him being much heavier after the 1985 season.

After the 1987 season, Larry Himes supposedly wanted him to come back for 1988 to team with Thigpen, but he wanted him to get into shape and set an example. James was not interested, and even turned down a ST invite from NYM.

I agree with you that the knee injury probably shortened his career, but being totally out of shape (hence me bringing it up in the trio of 'Bobby's') led to him altering his delivery and hurting his arm, thus having an effect on how long James' career lasted. He was only 29 when he finished, but looked and threw like he was 40.

And like Jenks, he was a high #1 pick and had a great fastball and nasty curve... and a weight issue. Jenks should learn from this story, if he cares.

slavko
10-10-2009, 12:10 PM
Sox:

James was 6-4 when he played and weighed around 230 pounds. That's not very heavy in my opinion for a guy that tall. As you stated they were saying he needed to lose weight because of the knee injury suffered in 1985.

He came back after that July injury but was never the same pitcher. That was the key factor in his career ending, the knee injury...not the weight.

Lip

I saw that in his stats page, too. No way Jose. At least not when he had his knee problems. Another example of a guy who ate himself out of a career.

Zisk77
10-10-2009, 12:12 PM
Interesting hearing about James and 86'. I never knew we had a chance to win the division that year. I had moved to Atlanta when I was 14 (1984) and could only occasionally follow my sox from box scores in the paper (oh for the internet). It wasn't until 90' that I realized I could usually pick up a sox radio station when i was in college at SIUE. Rooney & Hagan rocked...and so did the sox that year.

mzh
10-10-2009, 05:42 PM
Going back to the topic of Bobby Jenks, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Detroit as a possible destination for him. Inter-division trades are rare, but they are losing two of their best relievers, Rodney and Lyon, and do not look like they are going to give Ryan Perry a shot just yet. I don't know what we would get in return, perhaps Marcus Thames is ready to go given the season the Ryan Raburn had.

soxinem1
10-10-2009, 06:18 PM
Interesting hearing about James and 86'. I never knew we had a chance to win the division that year. I had moved to Atlanta when I was 14 (1984) and could only occasionally follow my sox from box scores in the paper (oh for the internet). It wasn't until 90' that I realized I could usually pick up a sox radio station when i was in college at SIUE. Rooney & Hagan rocked...and so did the sox that year.

The 1985 team had a shot. They were a little short in the talent department, but they were solid defensively and got 44 wins from their top three starters.

However.....

The 1986 White Sox never came close and never had a winning record at any point during the season.

They were out of it from the time Rob Deer hit the roofshot HR off Tom Seaver Opening Day as LF Carlton Fisk watched Deer's drive nearly hit the (then) Sears Tower.

SOXSINCE'70
10-10-2009, 08:56 PM
I've said it before, i'll say it again:

I'm not quite sold on Matt Thorton as the closer.

Closers aren't exactly growing on baseball trees,
so I say pay him for at least one more year.
If Thorton proves he can get the job done,
there's always the Trading Deadline, IMO.

SOXSINCE'70
10-10-2009, 08:59 PM
They were out of it from the time Rob Deer hit the roofshot HR off Tom Seaver Opening Day as LF Carlton Fisk watched Deer's drive nearly hit the (then) Sears Tower.

Thanks for the recurring nightmare.:thud:
What a horrible season that was.

Lip Man 1
10-10-2009, 09:33 PM
I have two hours worth of edited game highlights from 1985 in my library and watched them carefully to see how James looked. Both before the injury and afterwards he did not look heavy to me. Take it for what it's worth.

Lip

EndemicSox
10-11-2009, 01:13 AM
Consider me absolutely miffed that we would trade Jenks. He is still a top closer in the game. I cannot believe how much people are overreacting to a few bad performances in the 2nd half. :angry:

The problem will be the contract Bobby Jenks thinks he deserves(and maybe he does). IMO, paying 7+ million for a closer not named Mariano is ridiculous, and if the Sox can get something in return for Jenks before he reaches his payday, they should absolutely jump on it. I have 100% faith that Matt Thornton will be a fine closer.

Mohoney
10-11-2009, 08:52 AM
I can promise this: All the people around here champing at the bit to get rid of Bobby Jenks will surely miss him once he is gone.

We do not have a legitimate back-up plan for closer. You need a real closer to win a championship (almost always).

Matt Thornton has been a very good lefty set up guy for 2 seasons, but Bobby is significantly better than him in about every statistical category over the course of their careers. Most importantly, he has proven he can close.

People always seem to forget that until a guy proves he can be a full time closer, nobody has any idea if they can do it.

It is wholely possible Matt Thornton might be LaTroy Hawkins or Scott Linebrink (2008) if he gets tossed into the closers role.

If we plan on competing for a title next season, we had better keep Bobby, or get somebody we know for a fact can close.

My real problem with this is that Bobby Jenks has shown no signs of being committed to staying in reasonable physical shape. Carrying that weight is going to catch up to you sooner or later, and I think that this season already showed the signs of an inevitable decline.

I would let Thornton close and trade Jenks in the best available package.

JB98
10-11-2009, 02:39 PM
My real problem with this is that Bobby Jenks has shown no signs of being committed to staying in reasonable physical shape. Carrying that weight is going to catch up to you sooner or later, and I think that this season already showed the signs of an inevitable decline.

I would let Thornton close and trade Jenks in the best available package.

And that is a legitimate concern. But, Jenks is approaching free agency. I'm pretty sure Bobby's agent is going to get in his ear and tell him he's gotta pull it together if he wants the big paycheck on the open market.

My gut, which is almost as big as Jenks' gut is, tells me that Bobby has a bounce-back year in 2010. That doesn't mean we shouldn't trade him. It does mean we should sell high or don't sell at all.

hula
10-11-2009, 02:40 PM
Would love to see Upton in a Sox uniform..

I would cringe to see Upton in a Sox uniform. He was nothing but a whinner when he was here with the Durham Bulls. I got sick of his laziness while feeling the ballclub owed it to him to be moved up to the majors. He was not kind to the ballclub or well liked here. That was during the nighmare years of him, Delmon Young, & Elijah Dukes being here. Three very arrogant fellows. Please no, don't bring him to Chicago...

soxinem1
10-11-2009, 05:34 PM
I have two hours worth of edited game highlights from 1985 in my library and watched them carefully to see how James looked. Both before the injury and afterwards he did not look heavy to me. Take it for what it's worth.

Lip

What about 1986 and 1987 when the arm and knee injuries took their toll? I believe that is when he ballooned up.

Domeshot17
10-11-2009, 06:06 PM
Also, the thing about the weight, it all depends.

Last year Bobby was heavy, but good heavy and he was overall fairly durable. This year he had injuries that were a direct result of his playing shape.

You can be heavy and have a good career if you are strong. Rod Beck had a good career as a fat guy. CC Sabathia's weight has yet to cause him problems, Prince is early but a good example. Bobby can be 2 years ago fat because he was durable and strong. Last year he was just fat.

I tend to agree with JB. I think we are going to get a good year out of him upcoming. Moreover, I think its the WORST TIME to trade him. The only reason I would move him immediately if the rumors are try hes off the wagon and boozing hard again. The only reason he turned his career around was getting off the sauce.

slavko
10-11-2009, 08:35 PM
Rod Beck. Fat. Funny. Used to say "Ever hear of a guy on the DL with pulled fat?" Closing games throwing 85 max.

Lip Man 1
10-11-2009, 08:53 PM
Sox:

I wouldn't know. 86 and 87 were disastrous years. I keep no footage from losing years and try to erase them from my memory completely.

Lip

SCCWS
10-11-2009, 09:53 PM
White Sox fans are frustrated w Jenks. They say he has lost velocity. Red Sox fans are frustrated w Papelbon. They say he has lost velocity. White Sox had Aardsma and let hnm go to Boston. Boston let him go to Seattle. He gained velocity and had 38 saves this year. Can we trade Jenks for him before Boston does.

oeo
10-11-2009, 09:57 PM
White Sox fans are frustrated w Jenks. They say he has lost velocity. Red Sox fans are frustrated w Papelbon. They say he has lost velocity. White Sox had Aardsma and let hnm go to Boston. Boston let him go to Seattle. He gained velocity and had 38 saves this year. Can we trade Jenks for him before Boston does.

Aardsma gained nothing except for perhaps some luck.

DSpivack
10-12-2009, 01:22 AM
Rod Beck. Fat. Funny. Used to say "Ever hear of a guy on the DL with pulled fat?" Closing games throwing 85 max.

A Cub fan friend of mine once heard a guy yelling at the north side park, to no one in particular, "Hey, big fat sweaty guy!" whenever Beck was pitching. And thus he was forever known as that.

SCCWS
10-12-2009, 09:39 AM
Aardsma gained nothing except for perhaps some luck.


Hopefully you are under 10 years old. Luck is one or two saves. 38 saves on an average team is one hell of a season. He may not get 38 for the rest of his careeer but that was a heck of a year he had.

lpneck
10-12-2009, 10:40 AM
We do not have a legitimate back-up plan for closer. You need a real closer to win a championship (almost always).


I know. It would be suicide to enter the postseason with a completely untested rookie as a team's 3rd closer of the season. No way THAT team is going anywhere.

Hey- my first teal post!

Marqhead
10-12-2009, 11:19 AM
I know. It would be suicide to enter the postseason with a completely untested rookie as a team's 3rd closer of the season. No way THAT team is going anywhere.

Hey- my first teal post!

We can tell it's your first!

:tealtutor:

khan
10-12-2009, 11:22 AM
And that is a legitimate concern. But, Jenks is approaching free agency. I'm pretty sure Bobby's agent is going to get in his ear and tell him he's gotta pull it together if he wants the big paycheck on the open market.

My gut, which is almost as big as Jenks' gut is, tells me that Bobby has a bounce-back year in 2010. That doesn't mean we shouldn't trade him. It does mean we should sell high or don't sell at all.

I think I agree with this. I also think that as there are scant other options for a late-inning type reliever at a reasonable price this offseason, I don't like the idea of overpaying for a reliever.

If Jenks has a bounce-back year in 2010, he might help the team contend. If the SOX aren't any good next year, having a bounce-back year improves his trade value, and buys time for a youngster [perhaps Link] to continue to develop into a late-inning type reliever.

Nellie_Fox
10-12-2009, 11:37 AM
I know. It would be suicide to enter the postseason with a completely untested rookie as a team's 3rd closer of the season. No way THAT team is going anywhere.

Hey- my first teal post!Except you used "medium turquoise."

lpneck
10-12-2009, 12:06 PM
Except you used "medium turquoise."

Yeah... the "true" teal seemed really bright. LOL.

I woudn't mind keeping Jenks, but would like to see Thornton used more often in the 9th inning, especially when there are lefties due up. I know people hate the term "closer by committee," but to me, it's when jobs aren't defined clearly that players struggle.

I think it's easy to define roles... Bobby, if it's the 8th or 9th and the other team will be prediominantly righty in one of those innings, that's the one you will pitch. The inning where there may be 2 lefties, that's the one Matt pitches.

Get outs in important situations- I don't care if it's the 8th or the 9th.

JB98
10-12-2009, 03:15 PM
I think I agree with this. I also think that as there are scant other options for a late-inning type reliever at a reasonable price this offseason, I don't like the idea of overpaying for a reliever.

If Jenks has a bounce-back year in 2010, he might help the team contend. If the SOX aren't any good next year, having a bounce-back year improves his trade value, and buys time for a youngster [perhaps Link] to continue to develop into a late-inning type reliever.

We were on the same page until you brought up Jon Link. On Opening Day next year, Link will be 26 years old. He's yet to throw a single pitch for the White Sox. Even though the Sox bullpen was struggling, he didn't get a September recall this year. There's an overwhelming amount of evidence that suggests Link is not in the Sox future plans. Given his numbers at Charlotte this year, he probably shouldn't be.