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View Full Version : White Sox Pick Up Garcia's Option


DirtySox
10-06-2009, 01:26 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/10/05/garcia.white.sox/index.html

Nellie_Fox
10-06-2009, 01:29 AM
Good.

DaveFeelsRight
10-06-2009, 01:35 AM
http://www.xsltblog.com/archives/The-Simpsons-Mr-Burns-Excel.jpg

Noneck
10-06-2009, 01:37 AM
A no brainer.

JermaineDye05
10-06-2009, 01:39 AM
A good start to a hopefully productive offseason. I don't think Kenny has to do too much with this team as the talent is already there. Perhaps another bullpen arm or two and hopefully a new lead off guy.

I'd also like Kenny to get someone in here to teach these guys how to catch a ball and run the base paths properly!!!

LoveYourSuit
10-06-2009, 01:46 AM
I don't see another team in the in the Majors who is as set as we are 1-5 in the rotation come next season.

That's got be a good feeling for Sox management.


One bulllpen stud and a middle of the order thumper is all I have on my wish list.

Domeshot17
10-06-2009, 01:50 AM
Rotation is fine, everything else, ugh. Atleast Kenny knows this too, hopefully he wont just settle for mediocre this offseason. Team could be special next year, but we need to be thinking about competing with the Red Sox Yankees and Angels, not Detroit and Minnesota. Team was a disaster this year offensively, hopefully we shore that up.

Lip Man 1
10-06-2009, 01:59 AM
Totally expected.

Lip

JermaineDye05
10-06-2009, 02:02 AM
Rotation is fine, everything else, ugh. Atleast Kenny knows this too, hopefully he wont just settle for mediocre this offseason. Team could be special next year, but we need to be thinking about competing with the Red Sox Yankees and Angels, not Detroit and Minnesota. Team was a disaster this year offensively, hopefully we shore that up.

Red Sox, Yankees, Angels, Detroit, and Minnesota???

Don't make me laugh, we all know this team needs to worry about competing with the Indians.

delben91
10-06-2009, 07:26 AM
Rotation is fine, everything else, ugh. Atleast Kenny knows this too, hopefully he wont just settle for mediocre this offseason. Team could be special next year, but we need to be thinking about competing with the Red Sox Yankees and Angels, not Detroit and Minnesota. Team was a disaster this year offensively, hopefully we shore that up.

I'm assuming the "ugh" doesn't apply to each of the other 20 guys on the roster right now. I'd say Beckham, Getz/Nix, Quentin, Pierzynski, Thornton and Carrasco are solid going into 2010, and I'd be surprised to see anything happen to Alexei, Rios or Konerko.

Still leaves a lot of room for improvement, but don't think the Sox have to scrap everyone not in the starting 5.

white sox bill
10-06-2009, 07:48 AM
As much as I applaud this and want Freddy as #5, anyone else worried that KW may put this concern on the back burner during off season, then Freddy flops and there we are in same situation next year? I guess that could be dealt with if/when it were to happen.

spawn
10-06-2009, 07:55 AM
As much as I applaud this and want Freddy as #5, anyone else worried that KW may put this concern on the back burner during off season, then Freddy flops and there we are in same situation next year? I guess that could be dealt with if/when it were to happen.
Not really. Freddy's arm should be a little stronger next season. Besides, Hudson is waiting in the wings should Freddy falter. I applaud the move.

cws05champ
10-06-2009, 07:56 AM
As much as I applaud this and want Freddy as #5, anyone else worried that KW may put this concern on the back burner during off season, then Freddy flops and there we are in same situation next year? I guess that could be dealt with if/when it were to happen.
Well, going into 2009 they were relying on Contreras and Colon as the 4/5 starters, so we won't be in the same situation. And with Peavy at the top of the rotation, pushing every other starter down, Garcia at the 5 with Hudson ready to fill in if needed, I feel pretty good about the rotation.

WhiteSox1989
10-06-2009, 07:58 AM
Good. Garcia will be a very valuable 5th starter.

soxfanatlanta
10-06-2009, 08:14 AM
That didn't take long. Good move.

asindc
10-06-2009, 09:07 AM
I would have been shocked if it didn't happen. Good to know we will have five solid veterans in the rotation, a lot more than almost any other team can say.

Red Barchetta
10-06-2009, 10:19 AM
Does this mean the Colon will NOT get an invite to spring training?! :tongue:

voodoochile
10-06-2009, 10:31 AM
As much as I applaud this and want Freddy as #5, anyone else worried that KW may put this concern on the back burner during off season, then Freddy flops and there we are in same situation next year? I guess that could be dealt with if/when it were to happen.

No because this year the Sox had two major question marks with one question makr backup option. Next year the Sox will have one sort of question mark and at least one stud prospect close to major league ready backup option.

Everyone thinking this is a repeat of last year needs to sit back and repeat this phrase over and over while staring at a mirror, "Mark Buehrle is our #4 starter."

MisterB
10-06-2009, 10:45 AM
Everyone thinking this is a repeat of last year needs to sit back and repeat this phrase over and over while staring at a mirror, "Mark Buehrle is our #4 starter."

Unless the Sox are adding Roy Halladay and Tim Lincecum this offseason, I'd say this statement is inaccurate. Danks and Floyd aren't quite there yet.

voodoochile
10-06-2009, 10:51 AM
Unless the Sox are adding Roy Halladay and Tim Lincecum this offseason, I'd say this statement is inaccurate. Danks and Floyd aren't quite there yet.

Yeah, it was an exaggeration, but to me it's Peavy and three #2's. From a record and ERA perspective, Floyd, Danks and Buehrle are all pretty interchangable. MB has done it longer but at this point in time I expect them all to be around 15-10 with ERA 3.5-4.0.

jdm2662
10-06-2009, 10:55 AM
Good! Now, we have someone to hang out with Miguel Caberea when the Tigers are in town. :redneck

CanBuehrleWait
10-06-2009, 11:18 AM
http://content.ytmnd.com/content/1/3/c/13caf7311594ce352ed8a6d02d323d05.jpg

beasly213
10-06-2009, 11:27 AM
The reason I like this move so much is the Sox aren't 100% counting on Freddy. Yes he should be the number 5 but should he falter we have Hudson who can do a decent job.

Now.. On to getting that Defense better....

Luke
10-06-2009, 11:41 AM
Solid move. He only had two really bad starts, one of those was his first start back. If he stays healthy, that's a pretty good 5th starter.

hawkjt
10-06-2009, 11:59 AM
Good. Freddy has the best movement on his pitches of anyone in our rotation. A nice change of pace pitcher to break up the hard throwers in Peavy,Danks and Floyd...Good variety to throw in a series...just stay away from Miguel Cabrera,Freddy:D:

Lip Man 1
10-06-2009, 12:02 PM
Voodoo:

It's great that the talent level among the top four is so good that Mark is #4, but you need five starters to win. History shows that clearly.

Lip

voodoochile
10-06-2009, 12:07 PM
Voodoo:

It's great that the talent level among the top four is so good that Mark is #4, but you need five starters to win. History shows that clearly.

Lip

What does that have to do with my point and last time I checked this thread was about the Sox having just picked up the option on a 5th starter who had a heck of a run from August to the end of the season?

My point (if you actually take the time to read it) is that the Sox last year had question marks at BOTH 4 and 5 slots with a big question mark as the sole backup plan.

NOW they have a solid 1-4, a better younger option at #5 and a stud close to MLB ready prospect as the backup plan as well as another question mark behind that (Torres).

Honestly, Lip, the Sox just signed "Kenny Rogers" to be the 5th starter and got a great deal on him to boot. I'd think you'd be doing cartwheels on the front lawn...:tongue:

oeo
10-06-2009, 12:11 PM
Unless the Sox are adding Roy Halladay and Tim Lincecum this offseason, I'd say this statement is inaccurate. Danks and Floyd aren't quite there yet.

I'm a huge Buehrle fan, in fact he's my favorite Sox player of all time. That said, Danks has been our best pitcher for two straight years. He's still going to get better, but I guess I'm missing where he's 'not there'.

oeo
10-06-2009, 12:16 PM
Voodoo:

It's great that the talent level among the top four is so good that Mark is #4, but you need five starters to win. History shows that clearly.

Lip

Our 2010 rotation is better than our 2005 rotation 1 through 5. You still confuse the hell out of me when it comes to pitching. You never want to insert young pitchers, but somehow Garcia isn't good enough as your veteran presence. Look around the league and start naming these terrific fifth starters. In fact, I would love to see one better than Freddy.

PaleHoser
10-06-2009, 12:28 PM
Good move.

rdwj
10-06-2009, 12:31 PM
Nice! Big Game Freddie is a pretty nice #5.

ode to veeck
10-06-2009, 12:35 PM
D'oh, of course they picked up his option, lol

soxfan26
10-06-2009, 01:37 PM
The price was right, glad to have you back Freddy!

soxinem1
10-06-2009, 02:20 PM
Does this mean the Colon will NOT get an invite to spring training?! :tongue:

It also means Contreras will not get an invite either!!!:bandance:

jabrch
10-06-2009, 02:33 PM
Voodoo:

It's great that the talent level among the top four is so good that Mark is #4, but you need five starters to win. History shows that clearly.

Lip


Lip, tell me the 5th starters of the 9 teams currently available - and how many are better than Garcia.

I'll help

Minny - Duensing/Manship (garbage)
Detroit - Boninne/Robertson (bad)
NYY - Sergio Mitre (not in the plans until recently)
BOS - Paul Byrd/DiceK (junk)
LAA - Ervin Santana (a strong #5)
PHI - Pedro Martinez (FA midseason - and a major ? at that)
LAD - Kiroda (a great #5)
COL - Hammel/Fogg (ha ha)
STL - Smoltz/Boggs (GMAB)

So tell me exactly how good your 5th starter needs to be to win? Only 2 teams on the list of 9 still alive have one who was in their plans going into the year, who were remotely close to good plans at the time. A 5th starter is a nice thing to have. But it is 100% untrue to say that history says that you need 5 starters to win.

You don't really want to make me look up the #5 starters of the WS teams in the past 10 years, do you?

SephClone89
10-06-2009, 02:41 PM
That said, Danks has been our best pitcher for two straight years.

Wasn't Floyd our best pitcher in '09? First half, Buehrle. Second half, Gavin.

asindc
10-06-2009, 02:41 PM
We did win a World Series with Brandon McCarthy finishing the season as our 5th starter.

Ranger
10-06-2009, 02:43 PM
Voodoo:

It's great that the talent level among the top four is so good that Mark is #4, but you need five starters to win. History shows that clearly.

Lip

Not really. At least, not in the way that I think you mean it. It is not critical to have 5 really good starters. Most teams (the winning teams included) only need a guy in the 5th spot that's going to be competent. That's really all. He doesn't really have to be good, he just has to not completely screw it up.

Craig Grebeck
10-06-2009, 02:45 PM
Lip, tell me the 5th starters of the 9 teams currently available - and how many are better than Garcia.

I'll help

Minny - Duensing/Manship (garbage)
Detroit - Boninne/Robertson (bad)
NYY - Sergio Mitre (not in the plans until recently)
BOS - Paul Byrd/DiceK (junk)
LAA - Ervin Santana (a strong #5)
PHI - Pedro Martinez (FA midseason - and a major ? at that)
LAD - Kiroda (a great #5)
COL - Hammel/Fogg (ha ha)
STL - Smoltz/Boggs (GMAB)

So tell me exactly how good your 5th starter needs to be to win? Only 2 teams on the list of 9 still alive have one who was in their plans going into the year, who were remotely close to good plans at the time. A 5th starter is a nice thing to have. But it is 100% untrue to say that history says that you need 5 starters to win.

You don't really want to make me look up the #5 starters of the WS teams in the past 10 years, do you?
Much of this was in jest, no? There's no way you can just laugh off Jason Hammel and Brian Duensing without looking up their numbers, right?

JB98
10-06-2009, 03:14 PM
Not really. At least, not in the way that I think you mean it. It is not critical to have 5 really good starters. Most teams (the winning teams included) only need a guy in the 5th spot that's going to be competent. That's really all. He doesn't really have to be good, he just has to not completely screw it up.

Adding to this point, it's worth noting that the Sox went 4-5 in Garcia's nine starts this year. Nothing wrong with that. A .500 record (give or take a couple games) is just fine from your No. 5 starter.

Hypothetically, say Garcia makes 30 starts next season. If the Sox go 14-16 in those 30 games, that's good enough if the other four guys do what they are supposed to do.

Frankly, my biggest concern about the 2010 rotation is NOT the No. 5 spot. My biggest concern is keeping the top four healthy, especially Peavy. Of course, the Sox are no different than any other team in that regard. Everyone worries about keeping their top starting pitchers healthy.

sox1970
10-06-2009, 03:29 PM
Numbering the starters 1-4 is kind of pointless, since they're all getting the same amount of starts. If Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, and Floyd all get 33 starts, and Garcia gets 30 starts, then they can go in any order 1-4 they want.

LoveYourSuit
10-06-2009, 03:39 PM
Numbering the starters 1-4 is kind of pointless, since they're all getting the same amount of starts. If Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, and Floyd all get 33 starts, and Garcia gets 30 starts, then they can go in any order 1-4 they want.

It's not pointless when it comes to post season.

So you play the season with the goal to get to post season, so this is why you put numbers in front of your starters.

sox1970
10-06-2009, 03:43 PM
It's not pointless when it comes to post season.

So you play the season with the goal to get to post season, so this is why you put numbers in front of your starters.

Yeah, but you really don't have to line them up until the second half. My point is it's rare to skip a starter 1-4 unless there is an injury or a bunch of rainouts.

Let's just settle on Buehrle starting opening day, followed by Peavy, Danks, and Floyd. And skip Garcia a few times here and there.

Lip Man 1
10-06-2009, 03:56 PM
To one and all regarding Garcia, this and that:

I agree his option should have been picked up however his track record is NO different from Colon or Contreras, a guy with serious question marks concerning his durability. If he goes down in June the Sox are right back to the same situation as in the past, searching for a competent starter who can give them some innings, keep them in the game and give them a chance.

Some say well we have Dan Hudson...my reply? With respect to Dan who may turn into a very good pitcher, I've heard this song and dance before. Scott Ruffcorn, Rodney Bolton, Arnie Munoz, John Rauch immediately come to mind.

I just don't want Kenny to HAND Freddy (who has barely pitched in two years) the job. I want him to have options in the spring or if Freddy comes up lame. Sign him by all means (which the Sox did) but at least see how the market plays out, look at possible options, it's going to be a buyer's market again...there's a chance something better may present themselves. Pitching is the single most important aspect in baseball today (which is why it costs so much), as Pale Hose George has stated time after time, "you can NEVER have enough pitching..." And if Freddy stays healthy? Great, you've got a surplus which can be used in trade at the deadline for something the Sox may need. (The price of pitching always goes up then...)

As far as my 'philosophy' OEO on the 5th starter? Feel free to read this from my column perhaps you missed it the first time. It also includes a history lesson for Jab:

There are actually some fans at White Sox Interactive who claim the 5th starter spot doesn’t matter much. For them; a history lesson…

In 1996 the Sox stormed out of the gate behind a powerful offense and a solid group of starters to be 40-21 on June 10th. They finished the season at 85-77 blowing the lead they had in the wild card race the final month to the Orioles. Naturally there was more than one reason for it but this didn’t help. Sox 5th starters that season began 28 games and went 3-12. Those starters were Joe Magrane (8 games), Kirk McCaskill (4), Mike Bertotti (2), Mike Sirotka (2), Luis Andujar (5), Jason Bere (5), Scott Ruffcorn (1) and Marvin Freeman (1).

Fast forward to 2003… With 18 games to go the Sox had a two game lead on Minnesota. They finished the season four games out. Like in 1996, there were a number of reasons for their inability to lock down a post season spot. Like 1996 this didn’t help the cause. Sox 5th starters that season began 27 games and went 3-11. Those starters were Danny Wright (15 games, 0-7), Josh Stewart (5), Mike Porzio (3) and Neal Cotts (4).

Doesn’t matter some say? It helped cost the Sox two post season appearances!

The point is that if your 5th starters are going to pitch a significant number of games usually 25-30 a year you damn well better have someone who can deliver a record better than what the Sox have been sending out. If you don’t, it will cost you.

The back end of the rotation this season went 16-30! They had pitchers who were overweight (Bartolo Colon), couldn’t make it out of the 5th inning (Clayton Richard); coming off basically two years of inactivity due to injury (Freddy Garcia) or no one knew how old they really were (Jose Contreras).

That’s no way to run a railroad or win a division.

There’s also another group at White Sox Interactive who actually said (paraphrasing) ‘well no one has a good 5th starter, not even the Yankees…’

So the White Sox shouldn’t have an edge over the rest of baseball by getting one?

How much of an advantage could it be to actually have a reasonable chance to win the regular season games that the 5th starter will pitch? That’s a significant number of games you’re looking at here, 25 to 30 in a season. The Sox have basically been throwing them away. Garcia based on his late season performance may be able to grab the job next year but the fact still remains he’s barely pitched the last two years. Can he make it through a season? Did Colon? Did Contreras??

If Kenny Williams does nothing else this off season, he needs to fix this.

And to be clear, we’re not talking about a 20 game winner, or an All Star, or a guy making 15 million a season. We’re talking about a competent veteran who can give you some innings and keep you in the game. With the off season expected to tilt in favor of the buyer again, there should be pitchers out there who fit the bill for a reasonable price. Kenny at least needs to take a look at the market.

Mark Buehrle, Gavin Floyd, Jake Peavy and John Danks are a very solid quartet who can smother an opponent in the postseason…the trick is of course, getting to that postseason.
--------------------

I can't state my case any better than that.


Lip

JB98
10-06-2009, 03:57 PM
We’re talking about a competent veteran who can give you some innings and keep you in the game.

I believe Freddy Garcia is that guy.

spawn
10-06-2009, 03:59 PM
I believe Freddy Garcia is that guy.
Word.

Lip Man 1
10-06-2009, 03:59 PM
JB:

Maybe.... assuming he can pitch a full season. If not?????

Lip

sox1970
10-06-2009, 04:01 PM
Yeah, Kenny has already addressed the starting rotation. It's set. Hudson, Torres, John Ely, or whomever can come up if stuff happens next year. Kenny's only concern now with the pitching staff is the bullpen.

JB98
10-06-2009, 04:03 PM
JB:

Maybe.... assuming he can pitch a full season. If not?????

Lip

You go to Hudson.

But right now I'm convinced that Garcia is healthy. He threw the ball better than Buehrle down the stretch.

Lip Man 1
10-06-2009, 04:04 PM
JB:

Well we'll see... I hope your right, otherwise Dan Hudson = Scott Ruffcorn?

I'd rather the Sox not have to force feed someone should they be in a pennant race.

Lip

voodoochile
10-06-2009, 04:06 PM
I believe Freddy Garcia is that guy.

Not only that, it makes ZERO sense to sign ANOTHER starter when this team has other holes to fill. Like it or not (and personally, I like it) Freddie is the 5th starter with Hudson and Torres waiting in case he falters.

Expecting or hoping for something else completely ignores the financial aspect and what it would mean for signing a RF or landing a big bat to DH at the least.

With all due respect to the times it has cost the Sox in the past, the fact is, this is the way it is get used to it and get over it and in addition, have the Sox ever gone into a season with this much talent in the starting rotation?

Freddie's not headed for arm surgery this fall/winter, he's fully recovered from his last surgery and has made several quality starts this season with 4 more months to build up arm strength. Contreras was rushed and Colon was a pipe dream. Neither of those aspects apply to Freddie.

voodoochile
10-06-2009, 04:06 PM
JB:

Well we'll see... I hope your right, otherwise Dan Hudson = Scott Ruffcorn?

I'd rather the Sox not have to force feed someone should they be in a pennant race.

Lip

That would be a trade deadline decision, not something even close to being something to think about now.

Lip Man 1
10-06-2009, 04:20 PM
Voodoo:

To answer your question on starting talent...just off the top of my head:

In 1983 the Sox had SEVEN, count em' seven guys who had won in double figures in the major leagues at one time or another fighting for the rotation. Hoyt, Dotson, Bannister, Burns, Koosman, Mura and Martz.

In 1984 the Sox rotation was Hoyt, Dotson, Bannister, Burns and a guy named Seaver. :D:

The 1994 rotation was pretty damn good too, McDowell, Alvarez, Fernandez, Bere and Scott Sanderson.

Probably the best and deepest rotations in the modern Sox era came in the 1960's when the rotation included All Star's, 20 game winners and solid, experienced pitchers like Ray Herbert, Gary Peters, Joe Horlen, Tommy John, Johnny Buzhardt and Juan Pizarro.

They were the backbone of Sox teams that consistently were in pennent races, had winning season and often won over 90 games.

Ah, those were the days!

Regarding your comment, 'that's the way it is...' my only reply is we'll see how often in the future this costs the Sox postseason play. Old saying, 'fool me once (1996) shame on you, fool me twice (2003) shame on me...' Pitching wins pennants...period. Something the Sox with their history should clearly know and understand.

I've voiced my opinion and tried to provide some facts to support it. I'll let it go and we'll see if it bites the Sox on the rear end again in 2010.

Lip

Hitmen77
10-06-2009, 05:22 PM
Lip,
I can understand where you're coming from. This year and 2003 are prime examples of how having no viable alternative at the 5th spot can really sink a team

.....and I would agree with your view IF we were the Yankees or Red Sox or Cubs and had plenty of money to burn on payroll. However, we're not those teams. We are already pushing $90 million in payroll even without filling the huge hole in the middle of our lineup (for corner OF/DH). We have bullpen issues to address. If Pods doesn't return (or if we don't think he should return), then that's a 2nd starting position to fill.

IMO, the Sox just don't have the luxury of spending $$ to get another #5 starter over addressing those pressing needs. In an ideal world, yes it would be nice to get another proven arm to back up Garcia and Hudson. But the reality is that we better hope the Sox even have enough remaining free salary to fill those other holes.

Garcia/Hudson certainly come with some risk, but given their good showing this September, it's a risk the Sox will likely have to take to fill the other holes in their roster.

thomas35forever
10-06-2009, 05:59 PM
I like that Freddy's coming back next year. However, I also have a fear that this past month could have been just a fluke and he'll get lit up next season. Nonetheless, I'm glad our 2010 rotation appears to be set.

JB98
10-06-2009, 06:00 PM
JB:

Well we'll see... I hope your right, otherwise Dan Hudson = Scott Ruffcorn?

I'd rather the Sox not have to force feed someone should they be in a pennant race.

Lip

Were you not impressed by Hudson, Lip? I was. He showed incredible poise in pitching out of several jams that last home game against Detroit. I like his mound presence and like his stuff. He was drafted in the same class as Beckham and he got to the big leagues quick. There's a reason for that.

I like Garcia ahead of Hudson because of his veteran experience, but I also like Hudson a lot. I'm optimistic about his future. He isn't Felix Diaz or Arnie Munoz.

Iron Dragon2
10-06-2009, 06:12 PM
I have to say I was less than excited when I heard this news and I agree with Lip's view.

Lip Man 1
10-06-2009, 06:12 PM
This and that:

Hitmen:

I'm not saying it should be THE prime off season move OK? I'm just saying I'm not comfortable with just giving the job to Freddy without compitition and without even seeing what the off season market will be like. Again, for the 10th time it is expected to be a buyer's market again this off season. Just spoke with a source Thursday who said they felt the same way and have been hearing the same thing.

Basically, it doesn't hurt to look you never know what you'll find. If the market is the same as last year you may not need to be the Yankees to pick up some good deals.

JB:

I'm not saying Hudson is or isn't the answer. He's had a cup of coffee in the big leagues, who knows how it will play out. I just know that over the past 15 years the Sox haven't had a lot of success developing pitchers in quantity and quality. Until he proves himself, I'm skeptical and the organization should be too. Steve Stone on Chicago Tribune Live! yesterday said Hudson should go to the bullpen next season to get a feel for things and get acclimated. In other words he should not be rushed.

Lip

guillensdisciple
10-06-2009, 06:17 PM
I am going to trust Freddy next year, and hope there is a very good battle between Hudson and Garcia next year. I expect to see Freddy in the starting five, and Hudson in the bullpen.

Freddy should be an average/ above average starter, and Hudson will be great for the White Sox bullpen.

Hudson can wait another year to be the starter the White Sox need (oh, and he will be an absolute monster on the mound).

delben91
10-06-2009, 06:20 PM
I'm not saying Hudson is or isn't the answer. He's had a cup of coffee in the big leagues, who knows how it will play out. I just know that over the past 15 years the Sox haven't had a lot of success developing pitchers in quantity and quality. Until he proves himself, I'm skeptical and the organization should be too.

If performance in the minors doesn't prove anything, and the Sox don't give him some sort of shot at the major league level, how does Hudson, or any other player for that matter, go about "proving" themselves? I'm honestly asking.

JB98
10-06-2009, 06:25 PM
This and that:

Hitmen:

I'm not saying it should be THE prime off season move OK? I'm just saying I'm not comfortable with just giving the job to Freddy without compitition and without even seeing what the off season market will be like. Again, for the 10th time it is expected to be a buyer's market again this off season. Just spoke with a source Thursday who said they felt the same way and have been hearing the same thing.

Basically, it doesn't hurt to look you never know what you'll find. If the market is the same as last year you may not need to be the Yankees to pick up some good deals.

JB:

I'm not saying Hudson is or isn't the answer. He's had a cup of coffee in the big leagues, who knows how it will play out. I just know that over the past 15 years the Sox haven't had a lot of success developing pitchers in quantity and quality. Until he proves himself, I'm skeptical and the organization should be too. Steve Stone on Chicago Tribune Live! yesterday said Hudson should go to the bullpen next season to get a feel for things and get acclimated. In other words he should not be rushed.

Lip

He should go to the bullpen because we don't need him to start -- and he's among the 12 best pitchers in the organization. I think he's ready to pitch in the big leagues.

I look at each young pitcher as an individual case. Regardless of what has happened over the last 15 years, that has no bearing on my opinion of Hudson. I don't think much of Torres, but I do like Hudson.

sox1970
10-06-2009, 06:33 PM
He should go to the bullpen because we don't need him to start -- and he's among the 12 best pitchers in the organization. I think he's ready to pitch in the big leagues.

I look at each young pitcher as an individual case. Regardless of what has happened over the last 15 years, that has no bearing on my opinion of Hudson. I don't think much of Torres, but I do like Hudson.

I agree with this. Considering Hudson's talent, I think he'd benefit a lot by being on the club, but in the bullpen. Chances are he'll get some spot starts with doubleheaders or if they need to skip someone at some point.

Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, Floyd, Garcia is a very good rotation.

If they trade Jenks, Hudson would be a good, cheap arm to have out there (not as a closer) to eat up some innings.

Daver
10-06-2009, 06:36 PM
I'm not saying Hudson is or isn't the answer. He's had a cup of coffee in the big leagues, who knows how it will play out. I just know that over the past 15 years the Sox haven't had a lot of success developing pitchers in quantity and quality. Until he proves himself, I'm skeptical and the organization should be too. Steve Stone on Chicago Tribune Live! yesterday said Hudson should go to the bullpen next season to get a feel for things and get acclimated. In other words he should not be rushed.

Lip

With 5 proven MLB guys ahead of him for the potential rotation I really don't see him being rushed more than he already has.

JB98
10-06-2009, 06:38 PM
I agree with this. Considering Hudson's talent, I think he'd benefit a lot by being on the club, but in the bullpen. Chances are he'll get some spot starts with doubleheaders or if they need to skip someone at some point.

Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, Floyd, Garcia is a very good rotation.

If they trade Jenks, Hudson would be a good, cheap arm to have out there (not as a closer) to eat up some innings.

The Twins have done a good job of breaking young pitchers in by allowing them to start in the bullpen. The Sox did the same with Buehrle and Garland. You don't see that too often anymore. I presume the lack of starting pitching causes organizations to force feed young guys into the rotation.

This is a case where the Sox will be able to break Hudson in as a reliever, if they so choose. Then, if there's an injury, move him to the rotation.

Ranger
10-06-2009, 07:37 PM
Frankly, my biggest concern about the 2010 rotation is NOT the No. 5 spot. My biggest concern is keeping the top four healthy, especially Peavy. Of course, the Sox are no different than any other team in that regard. Everyone worries about keeping their top starting pitchers healthy.

Honestly, Peavy may be the guy you should worry about the least as far as this goes.


To one and all regarding Garcia, this and that:

I agree his option should have been picked up however his track record is NO different from Colon or Contreras, a guy with serious question marks concerning his durability. If he goes down in June the Sox are right back to the same situation as in the past, searching for a competent starter who can give them some innings, keep them in the game and give them a chance.

Some say well we have Dan Hudson...my reply? With respect to Dan who may turn into a very good pitcher, I've heard this song and dance before. Scott Ruffcorn, Rodney Bolton, Arnie Munoz, John Rauch immediately come to mind.

I just don't want Kenny to HAND Freddy (who has barely pitched in two years) the job. I want him to have options in the spring or if Freddy comes up lame. Sign him by all means (which the Sox did) but at least see how the market plays out, look at possible options, it's going to be a buyer's market again...there's a chance something better may present themselves. Pitching is the single most important aspect in baseball today (which is why it costs so much), as Pale Hose George has stated time after time, "you can NEVER have enough pitching..." And if Freddy stays healthy? Great, you've got a surplus which can be used in trade at the deadline for something the Sox may need. (The price of pitching always goes up then...)

As far as my 'philosophy' OEO on the 5th starter? Feel free to read this from my column perhaps you missed it the first time. It also includes a history lesson for Jab:

There are actually some fans at White Sox Interactive who claim the 5th starter spot doesn’t matter much. For them; a history lesson…

In 1996 the Sox stormed out of the gate behind a powerful offense and a solid group of starters to be 40-21 on June 10th. They finished the season at 85-77 blowing the lead they had in the wild card race the final month to the Orioles. Naturally there was more than one reason for it but this didn’t help. Sox 5th starters that season began 28 games and went 3-12. Those starters were Joe Magrane (8 games), Kirk McCaskill (4), Mike Bertotti (2), Mike Sirotka (2), Luis Andujar (5), Jason Bere (5), Scott Ruffcorn (1) and Marvin Freeman (1).

Fast forward to 2003… With 18 games to go the Sox had a two game lead on Minnesota. They finished the season four games out. Like in 1996, there were a number of reasons for their inability to lock down a post season spot. Like 1996 this didn’t help the cause. Sox 5th starters that season began 27 games and went 3-11. Those starters were Danny Wright (15 games, 0-7), Josh Stewart (5), Mike Porzio (3) and Neal Cotts (4).

Doesn’t matter some say? It helped cost the Sox two post season appearances!

The point is that if your 5th starters are going to pitch a significant number of games usually 25-30 a year you damn well better have someone who can deliver a record better than what the Sox have been sending out. If you don’t, it will cost you.

The back end of the rotation this season went 16-30! They had pitchers who were overweight (Bartolo Colon), couldn’t make it out of the 5th inning (Clayton Richard); coming off basically two years of inactivity due to injury (Freddy Garcia) or no one knew how old they really were (Jose Contreras).

That’s no way to run a railroad or win a division.

There’s also another group at White Sox Interactive who actually said (paraphrasing) ‘well no one has a good 5th starter, not even the Yankees…’

So the White Sox shouldn’t have an edge over the rest of baseball by getting one?

How much of an advantage could it be to actually have a reasonable chance to win the regular season games that the 5th starter will pitch? That’s a significant number of games you’re looking at here, 25 to 30 in a season. The Sox have basically been throwing them away. Garcia based on his late season performance may be able to grab the job next year but the fact still remains he’s barely pitched the last two years. Can he make it through a season? Did Colon? Did Contreras??

If Kenny Williams does nothing else this off season, he needs to fix this.

And to be clear, we’re not talking about a 20 game winner, or an All Star, or a guy making 15 million a season. We’re talking about a competent veteran who can give you some innings and keep you in the game. With the off season expected to tilt in favor of the buyer again, there should be pitchers out there who fit the bill for a reasonable price. Kenny at least needs to take a look at the market.

Mark Buehrle, Gavin Floyd, Jake Peavy and John Danks are a very solid quartet who can smother an opponent in the postseason…the trick is of course, getting to that postseason.
--------------------

I can't state my case any better than that.


Lip


Well, you're essentially making our case. The fifth starter doesn't have to be "good," he just can't be terrible. With the other 4 (good health provided), all they really need is "good enough."

JB98
10-06-2009, 07:41 PM
Honestly, Peavy may be the guy you should worry about the least as far as this goes.

I worry about all four of them. I worry about Peavy the most because he is THE guy. He's the best pitcher on the staff now. You can't help but wonder if things would be different if he had been able to come back in August. Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, good pitchers all. But none of them have the Cy Young potential of Peavy.

Lip Man 1
10-06-2009, 07:56 PM
Chris:

Folks are assuming Garcia won't be terrible. All I'm saying is he's barely pitched in two years, has a lot of miles on that arm and isn't the "given" that many are automatically assuming he'll be.

I'm simply saying Kenny shouldn't just hand him the job, now, in October. Look at the market, see what's out there, see if its a buyer's market again, shop around of you can.

Certainly he deserves an opportunity...to show his stuff in the spring and if he's in shape.

That's all I'm saying.

Lip

sox1970
10-06-2009, 08:00 PM
Wow, you're overthinking this way too much. Garcia got 9 starts, and had 7 quality starts. He's making $1 mil, with $2 mil in incentives next year. It's a no-brainer. You pick up the option, and you move on other needs for the ball club.

Lip Man 1
10-06-2009, 08:15 PM
Sox 1970:

Obviously you haven't read through this thread. I'M NOT SAYING DON'T PICK UP HIS OPTION.

I'm saying DON'T AUTOMATICALLY HAND HIM THE JOB IN OCTOBER...how many times do I have to keep repeating this?

His option has already been picked up.

Chris was saying you just don't want your 5th starter to be terrible. I'm saying everyone seems to be assuming Freddy won't be...he could turn into another Contreras, another Colon. LET HIM EARN THE JOB IN THE SPRING. See if he comes in shape, see if his arm holds up. In the meantime look at the market, see what may be out there on the cheap given what the market may be.

Is that clear?

OK?

Lip

Craig Grebeck
10-06-2009, 08:45 PM
How do you hand someone a job in October? Of course Kenny will evaluate the market.

russ99
10-06-2009, 10:05 PM
Chris:

Folks are assuming Garcia won't be terrible. All I'm saying is he's barely pitched in two years, has a lot of miles on that arm and isn't the "given" that many are automatically assuming he'll be.

I'm simply saying Kenny shouldn't just hand him the job, now, in October. Look at the market, see what's out there, see if its a buyer's market again, shop around of you can.

Certainly he deserves an opportunity...to show his stuff in the spring and if he's in shape.

That's all I'm saying.

Lip

Yep. Good points. We went into this season assuming Colon and Contreras could hold down the 4th & 5th starter jobs, and look what happened.

We have Hudson as backup, but I'd hope Kenny can add a few AA-AAA arms who could start in the bigs if they do well or if they're needed, since the system is a bit thin in that respect.

Ranger
10-07-2009, 10:59 AM
I worry about all four of them. I worry about Peavy the most because he is THE guy. He's the best pitcher on the staff now. You can't help but wonder if things would be different if he had been able to come back in August. Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, good pitchers all. But none of them have the Cy Young potential of Peavy.

I understand what you're saying, but the other 3 are currently a little more banged up then people realize, I think. Hopefully, the offseason will bring them back to where they need to be. So, those guys are a greater concern than is Peavy.

soxinem1
10-07-2009, 11:36 AM
I worry about all four of them. I worry about Peavy the most because he is THE guy. He's the best pitcher on the staff now. You can't help but wonder if things would be different if he had been able to come back in August. Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, good pitchers all. But none of them have the Cy Young potential of Peavy.

Unless Peavy was going to play RF, CF, 2B, or SS on his day off and hit with productivity, he was not going to save anything on his own.

He might have made three, maybe four additional starts. Even if the team won all of them, they still wouldn't have won the division.

Blame the line up. Only Albert Pujols being added to the roster would have given them a chance, and that was NOT going to happen.

At least until KW falls in love with him and finally gets Pujols when he is on the eve of his 45th birthday.

1989
10-07-2009, 02:45 PM
I like that Freddy's coming back next year. However, I also have a fear that this past month could have been just a fluke and he'll get lit up next season. Nonetheless, I'm glad our 2010 rotation appears to be set.

I share these same concerns.