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DumpJerry
10-04-2009, 06:51 PM
By the Cubs (http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/10/cubs-fire-hitting-coach-von-joshua.html).

I guess this means they're serious about winning it all next year since this is the barometer of taking a season seriously.

Frater Perdurabo
10-04-2009, 06:59 PM
I thought hitting coaches had ZERO responsibility for the preparation and performance of the hitters. :scratch:

FielderJones
10-04-2009, 07:12 PM
I thought hitting coaches had ZERO responsibility for the preparation and performance of the hitters. :scratch:

I don't think anyone has said that hitting coaches have no preparation responsibility.

Derrek Lee's comments in the article reflect my own thoughts about hitting coach.

oeo
10-04-2009, 07:33 PM
I don't think anyone has said that hitting coaches have no preparation responsibility.

Well, how much is Greg Walker preparing our hitters? Over his tenure, soft-tossing lefty: we gone. Pitcher we've never seen before: we gone. The Cubs had that whole, can't hit a pitcher they've never seen before, too. Remember Carlos Torres looking like an ace?

Oh wait, it's obviously the hitters. Who cares that they've changed how many times over the years...

In 2007 and 2009 we had one of the worst offenses in the league. The players were not the same, the only thing that was the same was the hitting coach.

FielderJones
10-04-2009, 07:43 PM
In 2007 and 2009 we had one of the worst offenses in the league. The players were not the same, the only thing that was the same was the hitting coach.

You forgot to mention 2005 and 2006, probably because they don't support the Walker is a bum theory. Did he just become a bum these last couple years? What turned him into a suck-the-life-out-of-an-offense bum?

The Cubs did exactly what most of WSI wants the White Sox to do. Then the Cubs hitters continued to struggle. Really supports the theory that changing hitting coaches is the answer to any team's offensive problems.

ernie14
10-04-2009, 07:59 PM
That's a shame. Poor Von.
This is all that jerk Ryne Sandberg's fault. He's after Piniella's job and doesn't care who gets kicked out the door in the process.
Sandberg is an arrogant rude scumbag. I hope he does manage the idiot Cubs. He'll be the worst. Hooray.

As far as hitting coaches go, yes they are overrated. Aren't you supposed to know how to hit BEFORE you get to the big leagues? :rolleyes:

The Immigrant
10-04-2009, 08:24 PM
Greg Walker still has a job? Good, now I can sleep in peace.

oeo
10-04-2009, 08:38 PM
You forgot to mention 2005 and 2006, probably because they don't support the Walker is a bum theory. Did he just become a bum these last couple years? What turned him into a suck-the-life-out-of-an-offense bum?

I didn't mention them because they were not the worst offenses in baseball...I thought I spelled that out pretty clearly. However, since you mentioned it, the 2005 offense sucked. The only reason people don't complain about it is because we won, and we won because of our pitching staff. The first half of 2006 was great, and then just like clockwork, they went into a prolonged slump.

The Cubs did exactly what most of WSI wants the White Sox to do. Then the Cubs hitters continued to struggle. Really supports the theory that changing hitting coaches is the answer to any team's offensive problems.

Well, if your theory is correct, i.e. hitting coach doesn't matter, then why not make a change? Greg Walker has not worked. He's never worked with any consistency. NEVER.

captain54
10-04-2009, 08:58 PM
You forgot to mention 2005 and 2006, probably because they don't support the Walker is a bum theory. Did he just become a bum these last couple years? What turned him into a suck-the-life-out-of-an-offense bum?



the 2005 and 2006 offenses sucked as well...2007 and 2009 just sucked worse.....

when the Sox didn't hit homers in 05 and 06 the offense went to sleep, just like it did in 09...

MarkZ35
10-04-2009, 09:29 PM
In 2005 the offense wasn't great but that team had a knack of getting big hits when they needed them. Weren't they the first team to win the WS without having a .300 hitter? I may have just made that up but I thought I remembered hearing that.

Like said before the first half of 06 the offense was amazing but it didn't last all year. Maybe they weren't in good enough shape after coming off the WS. Probably not much Walkers fault.

TornLabrum
10-04-2009, 09:50 PM
Now his resume includes being fired by both Chicago teams. It must suck to be Von Joshua.

doublem23
10-04-2009, 10:12 PM
the 2005 and 2006 offenses sucked as well...2007 and 2009 just sucked worse.....

when the Sox didn't hit homers in 05 and 06 the offense went to sleep, just like it did in 09...

2005 - Good, not great
2006 - Excellent offensively, one of the best in the A.L.
2007 - Terrible
2008 - HR or nothing
2009 - Terrible

captain54
10-04-2009, 10:19 PM
there weren't many bad offensive teams in the AL in 06....the Sox lead the AL in HR's but were only a couple of percentage points above being middle of the pack.

doublem23
10-04-2009, 10:23 PM
there weren't many bad offensive teams in the AL in 06....the Sox lead the AL in HR's but were only a couple of percentage points above being middle of the pack.

Not that BA is a good measure of offense (especially when looked at alone), but we were tied for 4th in the AL in team batting average in 2006, 7 points shy of the league lead. Meanwhile, we had the league's best slugging percentage, 3rd best OPS, and scored the 3rd most runs in the A.L. Our offense was fine that year.

slavko
10-04-2009, 10:26 PM
Derrek Lee, for what he says in the article, is a standup guy. How did Hendry measure Von's work? Not by the stats, which were much improved. It's either something behind the scenes, maybe between Von and Lou, or Von fell victim to "gotta blame someone and it can't be me." Which is basically the same thing that happened right here. Tell me Walker is any better. Go ahead.

TheOldRoman
10-04-2009, 10:28 PM
You forgot to mention 2005 and 2006, probably because they don't support the Walker is a bum theory. Did he just become a bum these last couple years? What turned him into a suck-the-life-out-of-an-offense bum?

The Cubs did exactly what most of WSI wants the White Sox to do. Then the Cubs hitters continued to struggle. Really supports the theory that changing hitting coaches is the answer to any team's offensive problems.2006 VERY MUCH supports the "Walker is a bum theory". The only difference between that and the other years are 1) The offense started out hot instead of being ice cold until June, and 2) the 2nd half pitching collapse overshadowed the just-as-bad offensive collapse. It was another example of 14 runs one night, 7 the next, 2 the next, and 1 on the fourth day. 6 runs per game, who could complain? We had a list of "White Sox Cy Young" candidates that rivaled the crap currently assembled in BadBobbyJenks' signature, including ****ty reliever Julian Tavares.

Their great first half and the occassional offensive explosions in the second half made the offense look much better on paper than it really was. Once again, as with every single year Walker has been hitting coach, the entire team went into a colossal month long slump simultaneously. Needless to say, he had no idea what the source of their problems were, or how to fix them, so they guys just up there swinging for the fences every time!

Big D
10-05-2009, 03:03 AM
That's a shame. Poor Von.
This is all that jerk Ryne Sandberg's fault. He's after Piniella's job and doesn't care who gets kicked out the door in the process.
Sandberg is an arrogant rude scumbag. I hope he does manage the idiot Cubs. He'll be the worst. Hooray.

As far as hitting coaches go, yes they are overrated. Aren't you supposed to know how to hit BEFORE you get to the big leagues? :rolleyes:

Are the Cubs really going to be dumb enough to put Sandberg on Pinella's staff as the hitting coach? Sandberg has spent the last three years blatantly campaigning for Pinella's job. The first time the Cubs go on a losing streak, every Cub fan is going to be screaming for Sandberg to replace Pinella. After all, he was a HOF player, therefore he must be a great manager!

oeo
10-05-2009, 06:08 PM
Steve Stone just ripped into Lee's comment about a hitting coach being overrated on CTL. Says that a hitting coach is only overrated when he's bad and that it's obvious the Cubs have not had a good hitting coach in awhile since Lee feels this way. Then went on to talk about the best hitting coach in the game, Rudy Jaramillo, and how much he means to the Rangers. Says guys that leave Texas still call Rudy when they get into slumps.

If Steve Stone is correct, and I agree with him, a lot of the talk by Sox hitters would support the idea that Greg Walker is garbage.

Walker will not lose his job, however, as long as he's buddy-buddy with the boss. The same reason why Kenny and Ozzie will not lose their jobs, either (not that I want them to).

Lip Man 1
10-05-2009, 09:01 PM
This is a complex issue. Personally I don't think it would do any harm to make a change but I can see the side of folks thinking Walker should stay.

A member of the mainstream media brought out an interesting perspective to me about this entire situation so I pass it on for comment:

“I think he is being made a scapegoat in some respects. Certainly a hitting coach has some responsibility for what happens but I think more responsibility goes to the talent evaluators and issues in the organization than the actual hitting coach. Here’s what I mean. The Nick Swisher evaluation was blown. The Sox thought they were getting a certain type player and that wasn’t the case at all. That’s not Greg Walker’s fault. Brian Anderson never developed the way the Sox thought that he would. He had issues while at the University of Arizona and he had wrist injury issues but the Sox thought he’d develop a certain way anyway. He didn’t…that’s not all on Greg Walker.”

Interesting take.

Lip

captain54
10-06-2009, 01:27 AM
The Sox offense has hit rock botton....It cannot possibly get any worse, so a change in the hitting coach is not going to matter either way.

Its the same offensive struggle now for the last 5 years. A lot of players have come and gone in 5 years. Let's let Walker further off the hook now by saying that if the talent evaluators had done a better job, they would have given Walker more to work with, and thus, the results would have been there, and people would not being having these discussions.

I'm sure there have been players on the Sox in the last five years they would never have become better hitters no matter what, no matter who was coaching them. I would venture to say though, that's probably the exception rather than the norm.

I'm not going to sit here and say firing Walker is the magic ingredient to a stagnant, lethargic offensive approach. But at this point, the Sox are going to have to improve dramatically to even become mediocre, so that might mean dramatic personnel changes.

The Immigrant
10-06-2009, 08:02 AM
Tampa just canned its long-time hitting instructor. The GM said he was doing a fine job but that it was time for a different voice. Hmmm....

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091005&content_id=7339412&vkey=news_tb&fext=.jsp&c_id=tb&partnerId=rss_tb

dickallen15
10-06-2009, 09:04 AM
Steve Stone just ripped into Lee's comment about a hitting coach being overrated on CTL. Says that a hitting coach is only overrated when he's bad and that it's obvious the Cubs have not had a good hitting coach in awhile since Lee feels this way. Then went on to talk about the best hitting coach in the game, Rudy Jaramillo, and how much he means to the Rangers. Says guys that leave Texas still call Rudy when they get into slumps.

If Steve Stone is correct, and I agree with him, a lot of the talk by Sox hitters would support the idea that Greg Walker is garbage.

Walker will not lose his job, however, as long as he's buddy-buddy with the boss. The same reason why Kenny and Ozzie will not lose their jobs, either (not that I want them to).

Jaramillo always gets mentioned but Texas team OBP was .019 LOWER than the White Sox this year and their BA was .002 higher. They struck out 200 more times but hit 40 more homers. Either Jaramillo has turned into an idiot no nothing or personnel is a big part of a hitting coach's success. Its not like guys leave the White Sox and become triple crown candidates.

jabrch
10-06-2009, 10:41 AM
I thought hitting coaches had ZERO responsibility for the preparation and performance of the hitters. :scratch:


Firing two coaches will have twice the impact that firing the first one did.

And nobody (I don't think) said they have ZERO responsibility. Just that firing one doesn't change things and that the ultimate responsibility to hit is on the guy with the big stick in their hand.

jabrch
10-06-2009, 10:42 AM
Are the Cubs really going to be dumb enough to put Sandberg on Pinella's staff as the hitting coach? Sandberg has spent the last three years blatantly campaigning for Pinella's job. The first time the Cubs go on a losing streak, every Cub fan is going to be screaming for Sandberg to replace Pinella. After all, he was a HOF player, therefore he must be a great manager!


Knowing Lou only has 1 more year, it might help Sandberg to spend one year on a major league bench if he is definitely their choice for 2011. Even if it is a question if he can do the job, being there for a year can't be a bad thing.

jabrch
10-06-2009, 10:44 AM
Sandberg is an arrogant rude scumbag.

Many people who know him think differently.

oeo
10-06-2009, 11:02 AM
Tampa just canned its long-time hitting instructor. The GM said he was doing a fine job but that it was time for a different voice. Hmmm....

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20091005&content_id=7339412&vkey=news_tb&fext=.jsp&c_id=tb&partnerId=rss_tb

The Rays' situation sounds eerily similar to ours. Except were just going to sit tight and hope for the best, AGAIN.

We're going to see a different lineup again next year and we're likely to see the same offensive deficiencies too.