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View Full Version : How did the bullpen get this bad-this fast?


Waysouthsider
09-26-2009, 09:56 PM
Didn't we have one of the best bullpens in baseball at the break? Is it just a function of too many innings due to the lack of a four and five or what.....?

JermaineDye05
09-26-2009, 09:57 PM
It's a bullpen. It's a crapshoot.

dickallen15
09-26-2009, 10:04 PM
Fire Don Cooper. He's obviously not getting through to these guys.

MarkZ35
09-26-2009, 10:06 PM
The bullpen followed the lead of the rest of the team. I also think they were somehwat overachieving through the 1st half. As we all know it wasn't due to not enough quality starts. It all comes out in the wash.

Athrun
09-26-2009, 10:40 PM
Contreras. Horrible outing after horrible outing just wore them down to much.

slavko
09-26-2009, 11:23 PM
Practice, son, practice.

Domeshot17
09-27-2009, 12:10 AM
When you combine pitchers who suck so much they cant find steady work anywhere but us (carrasco, williams) with Ex Royals (Gobble, MacDougal) along with guys who are older and have high milage on their arms (Linebrink, dotel) add in a guy who just doesn't have much stuff and get knocked around the NL (Pena) and top it off with our most important reliever having zero commitment this year to being in shape or being strong physically, it just spells doom.

WhiteSox5187
09-27-2009, 12:14 AM
It fell apart in the second half of last year too. That is a rather unnerving trend.

doublem23
09-27-2009, 01:14 AM
When you combine pitchers who suck so much they cant find steady work anywhere but us (carrasco, williams) with Ex Royals (Gobble, MacDougal) along with guys who are older and have high milage on their arms (Linebrink, dotel) add in a guy who just doesn't have much stuff and get knocked around the NL (Pena) and top it off with our most important reliever having zero commitment this year to being in shape or being strong physically, it just spells doom.

The problem with this argument is that unlike position players and starting pitchers, bullpen arms are very volatile and almost completely unpredictable. Change of scenery, different coaches, hell, sometimes guys just have freak good or bad years. Perhaps its time to point out our good friend Mike MacDougal has been decent since moving to the Nationals.

WSox597
09-27-2009, 07:17 AM
Carrasco actually has been one of the bright spots out of the bullpen.

He made some emergency starts too, and didn't do that bad.

Thornton has been mostly reliable as well.

I can't begin to explain Bobby Jenks this year, it does seem like it's in his head not his arm. Whatever 'it' is.

LITTLE NELL
09-27-2009, 07:37 AM
It fell apart in the second half of last year too. That is a rather unnerving trend.
Joe Morgan said it was the best bullpen in MLB.
How things change.

soxfanatlanta
09-27-2009, 09:53 AM
Joe Morgan said it was the best bullpen in MLB.
How things change.

Joe Morgan is a dork.

That will never change.

slavko
09-27-2009, 10:22 AM
The problem with this argument is that unlike position players and starting pitchers, bullpen arms are very volatile and almost completely unpredictable. Change of scenery, different coaches, hell, sometimes guys just have freak good or bad years. Perhaps its time to point out our good friend Mike MacDougal has been decent since moving to the Nationals.


You are exactly right, my friend. I'll mention again the case of our Juan Agosto who less than a year after he was laughed out of here was the hottest reliever in the NL with Houston.

Do you or anyone know what was changed about MacD in Washington? The stats still show more BB's than K's. I'm thinking in terms of not letting him throw the pitches he can't control.

Lip Man 1
09-27-2009, 11:43 AM
What changed was he was pitching In Washington where no one cares... for the worst team in baseball.

It's a lot easier to play where there's no pressure on you and no expectations for success.

Lip

captain54
09-27-2009, 12:21 PM
Fire Don Cooper. He's obviously not getting through to these guys.

Chicago White Sox......Pitching, ranked 3rd of 14 in ERA in AL
Chicago White Sox.....Hitting, ranked 13th of 14 in BA in AL

ode to veeck
09-27-2009, 12:22 PM
I think the turning point was the Peavy trade, when we were short starters in the short term and we lost in Richard, a spot starter who had more than a couple quality starts (in addition to his adding bullpen depth). Poreda was also a loss in this trade for the pen, even though he was just starting to get a few innings at the show, he was pulled up for the Sox to add depth and has been a quality guy so far for the Padres for them.

We had already been starving for starting pitching and to lose bodies who had been filling in the missing spots as well as adding depth, plus the fact that we're using a couple of older guys who are gonna get less innings anyway (Contreras, but also Barto earlier and then Freddie later).

The net result of the immediate step function changes of the Peavy trade had us we're headed into the meat of the season with a big innings incerase and situation loads on a suddenly much more depleted pen. The results on the pen were nearly immediate in terms of the amount of work increase and the declining result.

Add to that, the factual decrease in the effectiveness of our stud closer (for whatever reason) and the delay in when Peavy finally worked his way back to health (actually not until the Sox pennant hoped were effectively already over) and it made for a pen that was not going to be what it needed in the most key stretch of away and home stands of the season.

Ranger
09-27-2009, 01:27 PM
When you combine pitchers who suck so much they cant find steady work anywhere but us (carrasco, williams) with Ex Royals (Gobble, MacDougal) along with guys who are older and have high milage on their arms (Linebrink, dotel) add in a guy who just doesn't have much stuff and get knocked around the NL (Pena) and top it off with our most important reliever having zero commitment this year to being in shape or being strong physically, it just spells doom.

Carrasco and Williams have actually pitched well this year.

The "ex-Royal" thing is ridiculous. If you wouldn't want Soria on your team, you may be insane.

Pena shouldn't be dismissed just yet. He's a reliever that's a bit filthy who also has a very good chance of figuring it out. Too early on him. Some relievers take a few years...that's why they're relievers and not starters.

Ranger
09-27-2009, 01:29 PM
I think the turning point was the Peavy trade, when we were short starters in the short term and we lost in Richard, a spot starter who had more than a couple quality starts (in addition to his adding bullpen depth). Poreda was also a loss in this trade for the pen, even though he was just starting to get a few innings at the show, he was pulled up for the Sox to add depth and has been a quality guy so far for the Padres for them.

We had already been starving for starting pitching and to lose bodies who had been filling in the missing spots as well as adding depth, plus the fact that we're using a couple of older guys who are gonna get less innings anyway (Contreras, but also Barto earlier and then Freddie later).

The net result of the immediate step function changes of the Peavy trade had us we're headed into the meat of the season with a big innings incerase and situation loads on a suddenly much more depleted pen. The results on the pen were nearly immediate in terms of the amount of work increase and the declining result.

Add to that, the factual decrease in the effectiveness of our stud closer (for whatever reason) and the delay in when Peavy finally worked his way back to health (actually not until the Sox pennant hoped were effectively already over) and it made for a pen that was not going to be what it needed in the most key stretch of away and home stands of the season.


The overall reason for the bullpen decline is certainly recent overuse. Tons of concentrated appearances will wear you down by the end of the year.

oeo
09-27-2009, 01:31 PM
What changed was he was pitching In Washington where no one cares... for the worst team in baseball.

It's a lot easier to play where there's no pressure on you and no expectations for success.

Lip

He's the same guy that still gives up a ****load of baserunners. He's just gotten lucky.

Domeshot17
09-27-2009, 01:40 PM
Carrasco and Williams have actually pitched well this year.

The "ex-Royal" thing is ridiculous. If you wouldn't want Soria on your team, you may be insane.

Pena shouldn't be dismissed just yet. He's a reliever that's a bit filthy who also has a very good chance of figuring it out. Too early on him. Some relievers take a few years...that's why they're relievers and not starters.

My post was half just joking around. I agree just because you are from KC doesnt mean you have to suck. I would take Grienke over anyone on our 25 man roster.

Pena I disagree. Pena has ok stuff that he has no idea how to harness. He got away with it 1 year, and has sucked since. He doesn't locate well at all. A nasty pitch that starts in the wrong spot and ends up in the middle of the plate will just be a nasty pitch that is hit. The fact we gave up a nice prospect for him is stomach turning.

Ranger
09-27-2009, 02:12 PM
My post was half just joking around. I agree just because you are from KC doesnt mean you have to suck. I would take Grienke over anyone on our 25 man roster.

Pena I disagree. Pena has ok stuff that he has no idea how to harness. He got away with it 1 year, and has sucked since. He doesn't locate well at all. A nasty pitch that starts in the wrong spot and ends up in the middle of the plate will just be a nasty pitch that is hit. The fact we gave up a nice prospect for him is stomach turning.

That's my point with relievers, though. Guys can learn to locate. They can learn to pitch, even if it takes them a few years. Thornton took 3 years to learn to locate. It can be done and often does. It's too early to dismiss Pena.

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2009, 02:14 PM
The overall reason for the bullpen decline is certainly recent overuse. Tons of concentrated appearances will wear you down by the end of the year.

I agree completely.

Other than closers, the more bullpens are used, the worse they get.

RANDY WILES
09-27-2009, 02:34 PM
I agree that the bullpen is a crapshoot. With the exception of a few of the great relievers these guys are in bullpen because they are not good enough or, more likely, not consistent enough to start.

However, as someone else on the board mentioned, KW was tempting fate with these guys. Jenks started to become unreliable last year--although his numbers held up. Dotel has been a loser everywhere---no left tit (heart). A loser when things are on the line. I don't think he has ever been resigned---but he did beat up one of the clubhouse trainers. Linebrink was horrible last year after the break---give him some slack for the injury---but this guy is the worst---an embarrassment to the uniform. Choke, choke, choke.

Pena might still be Ok---but certainly wasn't worth gving up a good prospect----I said it at the time and hope I am proven wrong.

I have also said that as good as Coop is in identifying and nurturing young arms, there is something missing in his approach to releivers-----remember Cotts and ridzke game after game?

Finally agree with poster who pointed out that the continual "trotting out" of Contreras since July of '06 would break anyone down----really don't know what KW and Oz were tryibg to proove there. If you read Torre's book he was same in New York--3 or 4 good innings, then it was like he forgot how to pitch. I appreciate what he did in '05 and first half of '06; but wonder how many games he cost us over the last 3 years.

oeo
09-27-2009, 02:56 PM
I agree completely.

Other than closers, the more bullpens are used, the worse they get.

Our bullpen has not thrown that many innings, though. This is a good excuse when your starting pitching sucks, but our starting pitching has been pretty good.

Domeshot17
09-27-2009, 03:04 PM
That's my point with relievers, though. Guys can learn to locate. They can learn to pitch, even if it takes them a few years. Thornton took 3 years to learn to locate. It can be done and often does. It's too early to dismiss Pena.

HEre is my question. Look, I know with your job you have to be defensive of the team. You can't bite the hand that feeds, I can respect that. But truthfully, do you feel COMFORTABLE with the 4 pieces of the bullpen we know next year- Linebrink, Pena, Thornton, Jenks?

To me I feel fine about Thornton, hes been fantastic. I feel okay about Jenks although I wish he would start to care about being in shape and being ready for a long season. I am tired of reading about him coming to camp to GET IN SHAPE. Linebrink I fear is done from years of overuse and Pena, I will agree has good stuff, so did Macdougal. Macdougal may have had the best stuff on our staff several years in a row. The way he could move a 95 mph fastball was disgusting. But Pena has now been hit in a pitchers park in the NL, and been hit in a hitters park in the AL. I don't have CONFIDENCE in him.

Do you have confidence in him? By all accounts he was picked up to fill Dotel's role next year at a cheaper cost. Do you feel he WILL do that? Not oh he has good enough stuff to possibly turn the corner, but if you had to bet on it, what would you say?

Corlose 15
09-27-2009, 03:04 PM
Jenks having kidney stones and Linebrink absolutely sucking had a lot to do with it I think.

Pena has good stuff and you've got to give coop time to work with him. Maybe you can fix him, maybe you can't but it's worth the risk.

Frater Perdurabo
09-27-2009, 03:08 PM
Our bullpen has not thrown that many innings, though. This is a good excuse when your starting pitching sucks, but our starting pitching has been pretty good.

It's not just innings, but it's also the number of appearances - especially appearances in challenging situations - each pitcher has made.

captain54
09-27-2009, 03:10 PM
The overall reason for the bullpen decline is certainly recent overuse. Tons of concentrated appearances will wear you down by the end of the year.

As bad as the bullpen has been this year, if you look at the stats, the DET bullpen vs the CWS bullpen has been about even...

So the Sox certainly could have competed with DET in that regard.

The difference is the horrible Sox offense

kufram
09-27-2009, 03:42 PM
Call me old fashioned but I don't like the automatic-go-to-the-pen-in-the-7th era. Pitch counts are why bullpens are overused sometimes. I wonder if a reliever shouldn't be able to throw 15-20 pitches 3 nights a week without crashing due to overuse anyway?

I like progress but I'd rather go back to starters going longer, losing an arm in the pen, and having another player on the bench. I am old, tho.

Lip Man 1
09-27-2009, 05:12 PM
I agree with Chris, overuse is the biggest factor is a bullpen imploding.

How many times were multiple pitchers used in an inning or two because of Ozzie's "match-ups" philosophy? (Oh my God, can't have a right hander pitching to a left handed hitter and so on...). How many times were guys called in to bail out Contreras, Colon, Richard when they couldn't get out of the 5th inning? How many times did guys have to warm up (it all counts kids, some teams even take into account warm up throws in their 'pitch' counts).

Like Jack McDowell and Donn Pall told me, both would rather have an underused bullpen than an overused one.

If you're going to work these guys to death you damn well better have five or six consistently reliable guys you can go to.

Lip