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Lip Man 1
09-23-2009, 11:24 AM
Just been told that Kenny has decided to address the media before Wednesday night's game.

Don't know if this was something that was 'regularly scheduled' or not.

Might want to keep an eye out for what he says. Maybe a hint about the off season?

Lip

Crestani
09-23-2009, 11:48 AM
Probably to announce the signing of a long-term contract negotiated with Greg Walker.

southside rocks
09-23-2009, 11:50 AM
Probably to announce the signing of a long-term contract negotiated with Greg Walker.


Which is tied to the contract of Milton Bradley, who the Sox just acquired -- Walk will turn Bradley into the HOF ballplayer that he was born to be. Only KW would spot that!

PatK
09-23-2009, 11:52 AM
My guess is it's Jenks related

Whappeh
09-23-2009, 12:04 PM
Which is tied to the contract of Milton Bradley, who the Sox just acquired -- Walk will turn Bradley into the HOF ballplayer that he was born to be. Only KW would spot that!

Don't say that. I had a dream that they traded AJ for Bradley last night and woke up confused.

#1swisher
09-23-2009, 02:20 PM
(TEAL)I'd like to hear that ticket prices will be lowered next year. They will extend

half-price Mondays to include Tuesdays and Wednesdays.(Teal )

BleacherBandit
09-23-2009, 02:26 PM
I'd like to hear that ticket prices will be lowered next year. They will extend

half-price Mondays to include Tuesdays and Wednesdays.

Why would Kenny be announcing that?

dickallen15
09-23-2009, 02:31 PM
According to something I read earlier today, this was planned and is the last time KW will address the media prior to the end of the season.

#1swisher
09-23-2009, 02:31 PM
Why would Kenny be announcing that?

I thought we were guessing what KW would say (i'll change my post to teal)

soxfanreggie
09-23-2009, 06:27 PM
Don't say that. I had a dream that they traded AJ for Bradley last night and woke up confused.

I wouldn't be confused; I'd wake up and think I had a nightmare.

sox1970
09-23-2009, 06:28 PM
http://www.670thescore.com/topic/play_window.php?audioType=Episode&audioId=4041679

JermaineDye05
09-23-2009, 06:38 PM
Just been told that Kenny has decided to address the media before Wednesday night's game.

Don't know if this was something that was 'regularly scheduled' or not.

Might want to keep an eye out for what he says. Maybe a hint about the off season?

Lip

:KW

"We will not be pursuing Chone Figgins this offseason... You can't see it. I just winked."

MARTINMVP
09-23-2009, 06:41 PM
I came to this thread after mis-reading the title. I thought it was "Kenny Albert" the announcer from FOX NFL Sunday. After reading the first post, I'm thinking what is the big deal about Kenny Albert making an announcement and what does it have to do with the Sox? :scratch:

BadBobbyJenks
09-23-2009, 06:43 PM
He wants improvement in the Win column, I am sold!

gobears1987
09-23-2009, 06:45 PM
I was walking through the airport baggage claim earlier this morning and saw Kenny talking on his cellphone. All I heard was "Milton Bradley for Mark Buehrle, good."

Hitmen77
09-23-2009, 08:22 PM
Greg Walker and the rest of the coaching staff will reportedly be back in 2010:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1787683,white-sox-coaching-staff-contracts-092309.article

JB98
09-23-2009, 08:27 PM
Greg Walker and the rest of the coaching staff will reportedly be back in 2010:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1787683,white-sox-coaching-staff-contracts-092309.article

In that case, I expect more significant roster changes this offseason. The status quo won't cut it.

Gavin
09-23-2009, 08:27 PM
Wow, Kenny. You're so tough... criticizing a bad team when they are a gasp from being eliminated. Takes some brass ones, for sure!!!

Danielgosox38
09-23-2009, 10:26 PM
LOL at Greg Walker getting an extension. Jesus christ this **** is a mother****ing joke. I don't know what to think anymore.

southsideirish71
09-23-2009, 10:30 PM
So in a nutshell.

All coaches back.
No money or urge to spend money on the FA class.

So whats the plan. Reboot and hope it gets better? :angry:

VMSNS
09-23-2009, 10:31 PM
Greg Walker and the rest of the coaching staff will reportedly be back in 2010:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1787683,white-sox-coaching-staff-contracts-092309.article

Wow.

I honestly don't know what to say. Is this some kind of a ****ing joke?

Danielgosox38
09-23-2009, 10:33 PM
Wow at this organization. I'm glad I'm a Cardinals fan as well, so I don't feel as terrible when decisions like this happen. I am in complete shock that Greg Walker got an extension. There is a difference between loyalty, and stupidity.

Brian26
09-23-2009, 10:36 PM
LOL@ Greg Walker getting an extension.

Wow@ this organization.

When did this place become Twitter? Would it kill you to type the one extra character (and one less shift key) for "at"?

Danielgosox38
09-23-2009, 10:37 PM
When did this place become Twitter? Would it kill you to type the one extra character (and one less shift key) for "at"?

Ok? Fixed it.

BadBobbyJenks
09-23-2009, 10:48 PM
Ok? Fixed it.

Thank you I had no idea what @ meant!

Big D
09-23-2009, 10:50 PM
Wow, Kenny. You're so tough... criticizing a bad team when they are a gasp from being eliminated. Takes some brass ones, for sure!!!

I guess it's easier than taking responsibility and admitting that he did a ****ty job putting the team together last offseason. Some of the lineups the Sox ran out there in April and May were a ****ing joke.

Danielgosox38
09-23-2009, 10:53 PM
I guess it's easier than taking responsibility and admitting that he did a ****ty job putting the team together last offseason. Some of the lineups the Sox ran out there in April and May were a ****ing joke.


Post of the week.

A. Cavatica
09-23-2009, 10:59 PM
LOL at Greg Walker getting an extension. Jesus christ this **** is a mother****ing joke. I don't know what to think anymore.

+1

KW on Walker: "He's open-minded to using the rest of the coaching staff, who are accomplished hitting guys in their own right, Harold Baines and Joey Cora and Ozzie as well as his input."

Ozzie an accomplished hitting guy?

That explains everything!

Lip Man 1
09-23-2009, 11:11 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-24-white-sox-twins-chicago-sep24,0,6043337.story

Story on Kenny's media meeting.

A few things:

1. I don't know if the minor league system is ready to produce the way Kenny thinks it will next season. (i.e. his comments about fleshing out the 2010 roster with products of that system). The best prospects are in double A or lower. Charlotte was a disaster and I just don't think those guys are going to be other than Corky Miller, Wilson Betemit Part Deux. We'll see.

2. What Mark didn't have in his story was a comment supposedly by Kenny to Joe Cowley which Joe repeated on the radio. He said he asked Kenny if this team was mentally weak and according to Joe, Kenny said, "yes."

Lip

JB98
09-23-2009, 11:13 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-24-white-sox-twins-chicago-sep24,0,6043337.story

Story on Kenny's media meeting.

A few things:

1. I don't know if the minor league system is ready to produce the way Kenny thinks it will next season. (i.e. his comments about fleshing out the 2010 roster with products of that system). The best prospects are in double A or lower. Charlotte was a disaster and I just don't think those guys are going to be other than Corky Miller, Wilson Betemit Part Deux. We'll see.

2. What Mark didn't have in his story was a comment supposedly by Kenny to Joe Cowley which Joe repeated on the radio. He said he asked Kenny if this team was mentally weak and according to Joe, Kenny said, "yes."

Lip

That comment made it into Joe's story. I read it a few minutes ago. Doesn't look like it's posted to the Web yet, though, so no linky at the moment.

palehozenychicty
09-23-2009, 11:20 PM
I really hope that Walker doesn't come back. This hasn't been a good, consistent offense for awhile. I can't believe that nobody is out there gnawing at a chance to really teach. Ugh.

october23sp
09-23-2009, 11:24 PM
Maybe at the last second right before Walker signs the extension, KW will take the contract and rip it up.

Sort of like he did with the Peavy deal at the last second.

Rikirk
09-23-2009, 11:38 PM
What do ya have to do to get Walker thrown off this team...?

Literally have him get hit by a bus???


none of your hitters are consistantly hitting save Podsednik....doesnt that tell you something?

I really hate the upper echelons of management. One person alone is generally intelligent....it takes a committee to really screw things up.

:angry::angry::angry:

Soxfest
09-23-2009, 11:45 PM
This is the arrogance of KW, KW knows Walker has not done the job but he is so much smarter than anyone else just ask him. Walker as hitting coach has been a problem since June 2006 this team is in a 3 and a half year funk. KW had no trouble making sure Tim Raines was shown the door when they said he was not doing the job. Walker having a seizure on the field in the 80's should not mean he is employed for life by JR!

Boondock Saint
09-23-2009, 11:48 PM
This is the arrogance of KW, KW knows Walker has not done the job but he is so much smarter than anyone else just ask him. Walker as hitting coach has been a problem since June 2006 this team is in a 3 and a half year funk. KW had no trouble making sure Tim Raines was shown the door when they said he was not doing the job. Walker having a seizure on the field in the 80's should not mean he is employed for life by JR!

This isn't presumptuous at all.

Soxfest
09-23-2009, 11:51 PM
This isn't presumptuous at all.

Hey I am not afraid to say it, his actual job performance surely is not why he is still employed as the hitting coach.

Lip Man 1
09-23-2009, 11:53 PM
David Haugh's first Sox story in his new "In the wake of the news..." column is pretty good in my opinion:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-24-haugh-ken-williams-sep24,0,7170045.column

Says what a lot of Sox fans have been saying since the spring, this team for all practical purposes was rebuilding, regardless of whether Kenny would publicly admit it or not.

Lip

thedudeabides
09-24-2009, 12:21 AM
This is the arrogance of KW, KW knows Walker has not done the job but he is so much smarter than anyone else just ask him. Walker as hitting coach has been a problem since June 2006 this team is in a 3 and a half year funk. KW had no trouble making sure Tim Raines was shown the door when they said he was not doing the job. Walker having a seizure on the field in the 80's should not mean he is employed for life by JR!

Maybe you missed that the Sox were 3rd in the league in runs in 2006, and 5th in 2008, and won the World Series with 'his' offense in 2005. It hasn't all been failure, far from it. I'm not saying he's a great hitting coach, or a bad one, but I think people who scream for his head all the time are just looking for a scapegoat.

Like it or not, it doesn't surprise me one bit he's coming back.

spawn
09-24-2009, 05:55 AM
Maybe you missed that the Sox were 3rd in the league in runs in 2006, and 5th in 2008, and won the World Series with 'his' offense in 2005. It hasn't all been failure, far from it. I'm not saying he's a great hitting coach, or a bad one, but I think people who scream for his head all the time are just looking for a scapegoat.

Yep. I actually like the idea that the players should be held responsible for not living up to their part of the bargain. Walker can't swing the bat for them.

spawn
09-24-2009, 05:56 AM
Hey I am not afraid to say it, his actual job performance surely is not why he is still employed as the hitting coach.
It's a ****ing ridiculous assumption.:rolleyes:

Big D
09-24-2009, 06:10 AM
David Haugh's first Sox story in his new "In the wake of the news..." column is pretty good in my opinion:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-24-haugh-ken-williams-sep24,0,7170045.column

Says what a lot of Sox fans have been saying since the spring, this team for all practical purposes was rebuilding, regardless of whether Kenny would publicly admit it or not.

Lip

I hope Kenny's just spinning, because he's delusional if he thinks the club at the beginning of the season was capable of contending. He can call them "underachievers" all he wants, but 153 games into the season, you are what your record says you are. This team is right where they deserve to be - 3rd place in the worst division in baseball.

Danielgosox38
09-24-2009, 06:28 AM
Yep. I actually like the idea that the players should be held responsible for not living up to their part of the bargain. Walker can't swing the bat for them.


When hitting coaches on other teams, fail to get the job done, as long as Walker has been failing, they usually get fired. I don't get why it has to be different in the White Sox organization.

southside rocks
09-24-2009, 06:57 AM
I asked this in another thread but got no answer, and I'm still curious, so I'll ask again:

For those posters here who believe that Greg Walker has to go, WHY has Sox management not fired him yet, as of today?

Is it because they do not realize that he is the cause of the Sox offensive failures? IOW, are posters on WSI more clued-in on that than guys who have spent their careers in the game? No offense, but I find that hard to buy.

Or is it because the Sox management likes Walker and will keep him on EVEN THOUGH they know that the team is losing because of him? IOW, they place regard for one guy ahead of their desire to win? Even though they have fired coaches fairly easily in the past, they can't do it to Walk? Because that's even more ludicrous than the first possibility.

And if neither of those, WHAT IS IT that keeps the Sox from letting Walker hit the road right now? I really am trying to understand the anti-Walker faction but I don't know how to answer this one.

spawn
09-24-2009, 06:58 AM
When hitting coaches on other teams, fail to get the job done, as long as Walker has been failing, they usually get fired. I don't get why it has to be different in the White Sox organization.
SO, I guess you have firsthand knowledge of what he's teaching the hitters? Would you mind sharing this information? Sorry, but I believe hitting coaches get either too much credit when teams hit well and too much blame when they don't. I don't see anyone here who is criticizing him giving him any credit for Pods' resurgence, or Konerko rebounding from a terrible '08, or for AJ hitting over .300 this season. I don't know what he's teaching or not teaching, so I can't just throw him under the bus. :shrug:

Noneck
09-24-2009, 07:08 AM
I read so much about getting rid of coaches. To me I really don't think there is much difference in any of them. I say if the Sox can save enough money in order to get a set up guy, fire them all and bring up coaches from the minors.

soxfanatlanta
09-24-2009, 07:46 AM
SO, I guess you have firsthand knowledge of what he's teaching the hitters? Would you mind sharing this information? Sorry, but I believe hitting coaches get either too much credit when teams hit well and too much blame when they don't. I don't see anyone here who is criticizing him giving him any credit for Pods' resurgence, or Konerko rebounding from a terrible '08, or for AJ hitting over .300 this season. I don't know what he's teaching or not teaching, so I can't just throw him under the bus. :shrug:

Excellent point. PK actually praises Walker in his BP interview (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=9553). Like it or not, he's coming back next year.

Danielgosox38
09-24-2009, 07:47 AM
SO, I guess you have firsthand knowledge of what he's teaching the hitters? Would you mind sharing this information? Sorry, but I believe hitting coaches get either too much credit when teams hit well and too much blame when they don't. I don't see anyone here who is criticizing him giving him any credit for Pods' resurgence, or Konerko rebounding from a terrible '08, or for AJ hitting over .300 this season. I don't know what he's teaching or not teaching, so I can't just throw him under the bus. :shrug:


No need to get defensive about it, just because we don't share the same opinion. I don't have any inside information obviously. Do you have any inside information that he isn't to blame? The general consensus on this board, as well as with alot of other Sox fans, is that Walker needs to go. Just because we aren't with the organization doesn't mean we don't know what we are talking about. This could be another case of the Sox being "loyal".

Danielgosox38
09-24-2009, 07:47 AM
Excellent point. PK actually praises Walker in his BP interview (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=9553). Like it or not, he's coming back next year.


Did you expect to Konerko to say Walker sucks?

Scottiehaswheels
09-24-2009, 08:20 AM
When hitting coaches on other teams, fail to get the job done, as long as Walker has been failing, they usually get fired. I don't get why it has to be different in the White Sox organization."There are traditions, then there are White Sox Traditions."

spawn
09-24-2009, 08:33 AM
No need to get defensive about it, just because we don't share the same opinion. I don't have any inside information obviously. Do you have any inside information that he isn't to blame?
1. I'm not getting defensive. I'm sharing my opinion, just like you are.
2. I have no inside information, which is why I'm not going to be quick to blame or absolve blame. :shrug:

spawn
09-24-2009, 08:42 AM
Did you expect to Konerko to say Walker sucks?
Well, the interviewer asked Konerko who helped him develop as a hitter. He didn't have to mention Walker at all.

soxfanatlanta
09-24-2009, 09:24 AM
Did you expect to Konerko to say Walker sucks?

No, but if PK thought Walker sucked, why would he praise him?

kobo
09-24-2009, 09:48 AM
I'd like to know how KW expects the team next year to suddenly blossom into a high OBP team.

I find it disturbing that all the coaches are coming back next year after the performance of the team this year. I'm not going to single out any coaches, but with the way the offense has struggled, the crappy defense, the bad baserunning blunders, it makes you wonder why all the coaches are coming back. Yes, players are at fault here, but with all the crap we have seen not just this year but the last couple of years, it blows my mind that the staff are all coming back.

dickallen15
09-24-2009, 09:57 AM
I'd like to know how KW expects the team next year to suddenly blossom into a high OBP team.

I find it disturbing that all the coaches are coming back next year after the performance of the team this year. I'm not going to single out any coaches, but with the way the offense has struggled, the crappy defense, the bad baserunning blunders, it makes you wonder why all the coaches are coming back. Yes, players are at fault here, but with all the crap we have seen not just this year but the last couple of years, it blows my mind that the staff are all coming back.

I find a lot hard to believe unless major changes take place. Buerhle. it seems can't finish the season, (I think its because the Sox have been babying him for the past few seasons). If they are contending next year, how is he suddenly going to be strong at the end of the season and in the playoffs? Some new offseason program? If they expected to win this year, why wasn't he on the program last offseason? KW has been preaching this OBP thing for a couple of years, but acquires a lot of low OBP guys, and rids himself of his highest OBP guy. Making Alex Rios and his $60 million contract a centerpiece, and expecting the team OBP to be .350 is laughable. I differ from you as I don't put these problems on the coaches. The players aren't good enough. That's why the White Sox are pathetic in a very weak division, and have laid down and died this homestand.

Hitmen77
09-24-2009, 10:02 AM
David Haugh's first Sox story in his new "In the wake of the news..." column is pretty good in my opinion:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-24-haugh-ken-williams-sep24,0,7170045.column

Says what a lot of Sox fans have been saying since the spring, this team for all practical purposes was rebuilding, regardless of whether Kenny would publicly admit it or not.

Lip

That is a good article. The team KW fielded to open 2009 certainly had flaws and are, in part, to blame for our dismal season. Fields and Anderson/Wise in the starting lineup. Contreras, Colon, and Richard covering the 4th and 5th spots. That sounds like a .500 at best to me. To say he's disappointed in the result he got from that team he put together is disingenuous.

But that's not the whole story either. It's September and all those guys are gone (they're either off the team or on the bench). We have Peavy, Garcia, Beckham, and Rios in their place and this team is playing MUCH WORSE now than back when we were fielding that weak initial lineup.

It might be tough to be KW this off season. We have to pin our hopes on Quentin and Rios making significant rebounds next year, we have to hope Podsednik can repeat his 2009 success (yes, I think he's coming back), Dye's sudden drop off leaves a huge hole in the middle of our lineup, and there's probably not much free salary left to improve the team.

Soxfest
09-24-2009, 11:04 AM
It's a ****ing ridiculous assumption.:rolleyes:


That is your opinion, I have mine.

Lip Man 1
09-24-2009, 11:19 AM
Another pretty good take on things:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/deluca/1787925,chris-deluca-white-sox-ken-williams-092409.article

Lip

Noneck
09-24-2009, 11:31 AM
Another pretty good take on things:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/deluca/1787925,chris-deluca-white-sox-ken-williams-092409.article

Lip

He seems very sure Dye and Jenks wont be back.

He did mess up on the 5th starter tho. It would have been bad enough having Colon and Contreras as the 5th but as the 4 and 5, a total quagmire.

dickallen15
09-24-2009, 11:36 AM
KW can't seem to make up his mind even during his little get-together with the press. One minute he's blaming youth, the next they are underachievers.

It will be interesting to see who gets shipped out this offseason. I do believe one or more will be shocking.

wassagstdu
09-24-2009, 11:51 AM
From what I've read, I think the possibility that Walker is the lone voice of reason trying to convince the hitters to use the whole field, pay attention to the needs of the situation, and so forth is just as likely as the opposite, that he has promoted the look for a pitch you can drive, swing from the heels, pull it philosophy. Maybe Walker is the angel on the hitter's right shoulder whispering to shorten up, go with the pitch, advance the runner, while the devil on his left shoulder is the fan base and the reward structure of both the Sox organization and all of baseball telling him to "pull it, be a hero."

I am sick of watching the Sox hit "out and around" weak groundballs and "just missed it" popups while the Twins hit line drives all over the field. Somehow I suspect Walker is not the problem, that "we" are -- the "we" that remember Pods' 2005 performance only for his WS HR, for example.

JohnnyInnsbrook
09-24-2009, 12:37 PM
KW can't seem to make up his mind even during his little get-together with the press. One minute he's blaming youth, the next they are underachievers.

It will be interesting to see who gets shipped out this offseason. I do believe one or more will be shocking.


Well honestly I think both is true. For most of the year it seemed like youth was to blame with their goofy errors and all, however at the end of the season they seem to have gotten stronger defensively. But as the youth got stronger, veterans stopped playing to there potential. So I think it is fair to blame both the youth and underachieving players.

kaufsox
09-24-2009, 12:50 PM
SO, I guess you have firsthand knowledge of what he's teaching the hitters? Would you mind sharing this information? Sorry, but I believe hitting coaches get either too much credit when teams hit well and too much blame when they don't. I don't see anyone here who is criticizing him giving him any credit for Pods' resurgence, or Konerko rebounding from a terrible '08, or for AJ hitting over .300 this season. I don't know what he's teaching or not teaching, so I can't just throw him under the bus. :shrug:

I kind of feel this way, but I wouldn't call it a travesty of justice if he got fired either. People/pundits like to say, "what can Walker teach a guy like Konerko and Thome?" when their slumping and I agree. At this level, I don't think his input is that key to any rebound. So the resurgence of Pods, Paulie's good year, AJ doing well doesn't have a lot to do with Walker. By the same token JD's slump, Rios' poor time with the Sox, and Quentin having a less than ideal year isn't Walker's fault either. The only criticism I can level at Walker is that if as hitting coach part of his job is to prep hitters for the upcoming pitchers he seems to be doing this poorly. (and no I don't know what he says to hitters before the game, don't ask questions you already know the answer to.) Judging at how lost our hitters have looked at times, not just this year but for quite a few years now, especially against new pitchers it seems Walker isn't performing this aspect of his job well. Is this enough to get him fired? Don't know. I do know that there is more than one aspect to the job, all of which I'm not privy to, and how Walker measures up to all of them is what really matters.

Lip Man 1
09-24-2009, 02:28 PM
Add Phil's column:

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/09/what-about-vazquez-and-swisher.html

Seems to take a level headed approach to this. The very last line seems to sum everything up pretty well.

Lip

jdm2662
09-24-2009, 02:30 PM
That is a good article. The team KW fielded to open 2009 certainly had flaws and are, in part, to blame for our dismal season. Fields and Anderson/Wise in the starting lineup. Contreras, Colon, and Richard covering the 4th and 5th spots. That sounds like a .500 at best to me. To say he's disappointed in the result he got from that team he put together is disingenuous.

But that's not the whole story either. It's September and all those guys are gone (they're either off the team or on the bench). We have Peavy, Garcia, Beckham, and Rios in their place and this team is playing MUCH WORSE now than back when we were fielding that weak initial lineup.

It might be tough to be KW this off season. We have to pin our hopes on Quentin and Rios making significant rebounds next year, we have to hope Podsednik can repeat his 2009 success (yes, I think he's coming back), Dye's sudden drop off leaves a huge hole in the middle of our lineup, and there's probably not much free salary left to improve the team.

Here's where you hit the nail on the head. Yes, we can complain and talk about how bad the roster was early in the season (and I would agree).

HOWEVER, let's go back to July 25th. The Sox moved into a tie for first place and Mark pitched a perfect game. That was the high point of the season. Since then, without those mentioned players, the Sox have gone 23-35. They didn't play this bad with the opening day roster.

Dye has gone in the crapper big time.
Jenks got sick and decided not to pitch well when he came back. The rest of the bullpen sans Thorton hasn't been too great.
Beckham cooled down consideribly
Mark hasn't exactly looked like an all star since (although some games he got screwed).
The starters haven't been horrible overall, but they've had their share of bad games. That doesn't help when your offense isn't producing.
Rios has been a huge bust so far.
And so on...

As for David Haugh, after reading his work with the Bears, it will be tough to take him seriously. He's too much into the flavor of the week stories.

Ranger
09-24-2009, 04:12 PM
I asked this in another thread but got no answer, and I'm still curious, so I'll ask again:

For those posters here who believe that Greg Walker has to go, WHY has Sox management not fired him yet, as of today?

Is it because they do not realize that he is the cause of the Sox offensive failures? IOW, are posters on WSI more clued-in on that than guys who have spent their careers in the game? No offense, but I find that hard to buy.

Or is it because the Sox management likes Walker and will keep him on EVEN THOUGH they know that the team is losing because of him? IOW, they place regard for one guy ahead of their desire to win? Even though they have fired coaches fairly easily in the past, they can't do it to Walk? Because that's even more ludicrous than the first possibility.

And if neither of those, WHAT IS IT that keeps the Sox from letting Walker hit the road right now? I really am trying to understand the anti-Walker faction but I don't know how to answer this one.


Has anyone tried to answer you yet?

shingo10
09-24-2009, 04:13 PM
Over/Under on 3 KW trades this offseason.

I would take the under. Not really sure what we could move to get a decent return unless it involves prospects.

Also, While I'm a huge Getz fan, the production from 2b this season has been lackluster to say the least.

Any ideas on what to do about that? I can't think of any star 2b off the top of my head who are decent power and rbi guys. Of course I don't focus on too much other than the Sox so I'm sure there are some out there.

kaufsox
09-24-2009, 04:14 PM
Add Phil's column:

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/09/what-about-vazquez-and-swisher.html

Seems to take a level headed approach to this. The very last line seems to sum everything up pretty well.

Lip

I agree, pretty level headed. My only concern with both of those guys is would they have had the same year here as they did in their new environment? I tend to think not. Javy was never going to get out of Ozzie's doghouse and I think Swisher had wornout his welcome with his teamates more than management. All things considered I thought getting rid of Swisher was a better idea than Javy, mainly because of his innings.

southside rocks
09-24-2009, 05:16 PM
Has anyone tried to answer you yet?

No. I can't think why not! :scratch: :tongue:

Tragg
09-24-2009, 05:35 PM
Joey Cora and Ozzie (career obp of .287) Guillen are "accomplished hitting guys"? That explains a lot - it really does.

It's in the same plane as Wise is "Tremendous", only this time it's Williams saying it.

Even still, to not only assign the coaching staff zero responsibility when the team has 2 terrible seasons out of 3 and 3 underachieving seasons out of 4, but to reward it for such poor performance is really hard to believe.

SI1020
09-24-2009, 05:46 PM
Add Phil's column:

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/09/what-about-vazquez-and-swisher.html

Seems to take a level headed approach to this. The very last line seems to sum everything up pretty well.

Lip I really don't blame KW for moving Vazquez and Swisher. Both were monumental disappointments when it counted most, and it appeared at least to me that neither one was getting out of Ozzie's doghouse. I live in the Atlanta Braves viewing area and have seen Vasquez pitch a bunch of times this year. It's been a long time since he's looked this sharp. I can second guess with the best of them. That being said, I'm happy for Vasquez and Swisher for making it big on the comeback trail, but I'm not going to rake our GM over the coals for trading them. It just wasn't working out.

Ranger
09-24-2009, 06:08 PM
No. I can't think why not! :scratch: :tongue:

I can.

A. Cavatica
09-24-2009, 06:32 PM
Joey Cora and Ozzie (career obp of .287) Guillen are "accomplished hitting guys"? That explains a lot - it really does.

It's in the same plane as Wise is "Tremendous", only this time it's Williams saying it.

Even still, to not only assign the coaching staff zero responsibility when the team has 2 terrible seasons out of 3 and 3 underachieving seasons out of 4, but to reward it for such poor performance is really hard to believe.

To their credit, compared to Kenny, Joey and Ozzie were "accomplished hitting guys".

soxtalker
09-24-2009, 07:28 PM
Add Phil's column:

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/09/what-about-vazquez-and-swisher.html

Seems to take a level headed approach to this. The very last line seems to sum everything up pretty well.

Lip

It's a very interesting perspective.

I still liked the Vazquez move, though it depends a lot on how Flowers develops. KW had to be seeing an aging AJ (granted, he's played extremely well this year), and he got a top-notch catching prospect.

SteveFakeBlood
09-24-2009, 07:36 PM
I kind of feel this way, but I wouldn't call it a travesty of justice if he got fired either. People/pundits like to say, "what can Walker teach a guy like Konerko and Thome?" when their slumping and I agree. At this level, I don't think his input is that key to any rebound. So the resurgence of Pods, Paulie's good year, AJ doing well doesn't have a lot to do with Walker. By the same token JD's slump, Rios' poor time with the Sox, and Quentin having a less than ideal year isn't Walker's fault either. The only criticism I can level at Walker is that if as hitting coach part of his job is to prep hitters for the upcoming pitchers he seems to be doing this poorly. (and no I don't know what he says to hitters before the game, don't ask questions you already know the answer to.) Judging at how lost our hitters have looked at times, not just this year but for quite a few years now, especially against new pitchers it seems Walker isn't performing this aspect of his job well. Is this enough to get him fired? Don't know. I do know that there is more than one aspect to the job, all of which I'm not privy to, and how Walker measures up to all of them is what really matters.
This is probably the most intelligent post on this thread. Thank you, I tend to defend Walker more because of the things some others mentioned (the resurgence of AJ, Pods, and Konerko) and because he is being made a scapegoat and I hate that crap. But you looked at it more rationally, you have to give him some credit for the good and some blame for the bad. But ultimately, these guys are Major Leaguers and after spring training it's the hitting coach's job just to do prep work.


I find a lot hard to believe unless major changes take place. Buerhle. it seems can't finish the season, (I think its because the Sox have been babying him for the past few seasons). If they are contending next year, how is he suddenly going to be strong at the end of the season and in the playoffs? .

This post was unrelated to that, but it bothered me. How exactly is Mark not finishing seasons? I know he's not doing spectacular this year- but last September/October he was 4-1 with a 2.29 ERA... for his career he's 24-14 with a 3.87 ERA in September/October (second most wins of any month). Even this year his ERA for September/October is 4.30... not great, but not a major cause for alarm. And "babying"? He's pitched over 200 innings for 9 straight seasons. Maybe I'm reading wrong and you are just talking about this season and you think it'll carry over. But throughout his career that has not been the case. Even in 06-07 when he was marginal at the end of the year, he came back and was magnificient during the stretch last season. If he's bad at the end of 2010, then I'd be more worried. Until then- I think our starting rotation is the least of our problems. We're going into next year with 4 genuinely good starters and a competition between Garcia, Torres and Hudson and probably more for the 5 spot. I'm much more comfortable having guys competing for one sport- with the Top 4 being solid #2 type pitchers than this year.

~Steve


All stats are courtesy of Baseball-reference.

captain54
09-24-2009, 07:36 PM
Has anyone tried to answer you yet?

Why would it matter? We're just lowly fans who don't have the "inside" information on what goes on in the White Sox organization, and we have no right to be confident enough to be turn on the computer, log into the site, let alone attempt to voice an opinion.

But hell, I've been a White Sox fan since I've been 5 years old, Nellie Fox autographed my baseball glove during the 59' season, and I've lived and died with every team Sox team through the 60's on up to the present.

So I plan on voicing my opinion in a SUPREMELY confident manner.

Why hasn't the Sox organization canned Walker if his performance is that bad?? Baines, Walker, Kenny Williams, Ozzie....four individuals who have lifetime gigs with Reinsdorf is they want them.

Frater Perdurabo
09-24-2009, 08:13 PM
For those posters here who believe that Greg Walker has to go, WHY has Sox management not fired him yet, as of today?

In my opinion it is the fact that Greg Walker is a loyal employee, and this organization values loyalty above all other characteristics, including excellence.

southside rocks
09-24-2009, 08:33 PM
In my opinion it is the fact that Greg Walker is a loyal employee, and this organization values loyalty above all other characteristics, including excellence.

That would be a reason to keep Walker on if he were not performing; however, I know several people who know Kenny Williams personally, and I challenge you to show me any evidence that KW values loyalty above winning. Seasons like this cause serious damage to the Williams stomach lining, and I don't think that's much of a secret.

If KW valued loyalty above winning, he wouldn't be so irate in the years when the team falls short; he would more play the Cubs' theme and say "we did good, we'll do better next year!" and one wouldn't get the sense that he was ready to pound his head on the table about this year's shortcomings.

And I know that KW is not the entire organization, but would he really stay in a job where his hands were tied with respect to getting rid of a coach? Again, impossible to imagine that given what we, and everyone in baseball, knows of KW.

And finally, loyalty to a hitting coach? One of the lower life forms in the organization, frankly; I could understand loyalty to a GM or an AGM, but a hitting coach? Only if Greg Walker were married to JR's daughter could I make sense of that. (He's not, is he?)

So I am not convinced by your theory, because it seems to me that you are saying that JR and KW and OG would rather have Greg Walker employed by the Sox than they would have another WS trophy. To which I can only say: :rolleyes:

Ranger
09-24-2009, 08:40 PM
Why would it matter? We're just lowly fans who don't have the "inside" information on what goes on in the White Sox organization, and we have no right to be confident enough to be turn on the computer, log into the site, let alone attempt to voice an opinion.

But hell, I've been a White Sox fan since I've been 5 years old, Nellie Fox autographed my baseball glove during the 59' season, and I've lived and died with every team Sox team through the 60's on up to the present.

So I plan on voicing my opinion in a SUPREMELY confident manner.

Why hasn't the Sox organization canned Walker if his performance is that bad?? Baines, Walker, Kenny Williams, Ozzie....four individuals who have lifetime gigs with Reinsdorf is they want them.

I'm glad you've been a fan for such a long time, and it's great that you've stuck with the team through good years as well as the bad. Many people don't. However, that is irrelevant to this discussion.

I don't find it so much troubling when people suggest they should look into letting him go. If anyone can provide concrete reasons as to why what he is doing is causing the lineup to perform the way it is, or can prove (with specifics) that he is not doing everything that can be humanly done to fix the problems, or that his "philosophy" is causing the issues, I will listen.

What I believe is that when people don't have all the information, they shouldn't act like they have all the information and say things like, "it is inexcusable that Greg Walker is still employed here!" That bothers me because there's a confident assumption that he is the root of the problem.

In reality, nobody knows that to be true. People are only guessing, and thinking that somehow firing that one guy would change everything. Those same people don't realize that his position does not have as great of an effect on the outcome on the field as they think. I think people sometimes think the hitting coach is the same as an offensive coordinator in football, or at least believe the two have similar control over the results.

It's one thing to wonder if Greg Walker is the heart of the issue, it's another to be certain of it when you have no evidence of how the relationship works and what he does with his players.

As for the "lifetime" gigs thing, if you really examine that, it doesn't make sense. Let's think about what southside_rocks said: if Walker was really the problem, don't you think they'd know it? And if they knew it, don't you think they'd do something about it? I mean, really think about this....

Firing a hitting coach is an easy thing to do...relatively small salary, fans won't freak out over it, no union to deal with, no multi-year, multi-million dollar contract to worry about eating, easy to replace, etc. Having a poor offense hurts the team's chances to win. Not winning causes less people to buy tickets, which affects revenue and makes it less likely to make the postseason, which affects revenue. There are many who believe Reinsdorf is all about making money, well wouldn't it stand to reason that he wouldn't do things he knows will hurt revenue? Loyalty? Please. People are loyal to a point when it affects revenue.

Like southside said, they've fired coaches before. You don't think they felt some loyalty to Rock? They wouldn't have fired him if there wasn't a reason to do it.

Unless you just figure they don't realize it, of course. In that case, you believe they're stupid and don't know what they're doing. That would mean that you seriously think they have no idea how to run a major league baseball team and are completely blind to the fact that one hitting coach is the source of all of their troubles. In that view, they are too stupid to realize it and want to continue losing because they are loyal to Greg Walker. In other words, you believe they would rather lose games and go through these troubles again than execute a simple solution to fix the whole thing...

Ranger
09-24-2009, 08:41 PM
That would be a reason to keep Walker on if he were not performing; however, I know several people who know Kenny Williams personally, and I challenge you to show me any evidence that KW values loyalty above winning. Seasons like this cause serious damage to the Williams stomach lining, and I don't think that's much of a secret.

If KW valued loyalty above winning, he wouldn't be so irate in the years when the team falls short; he would more play the Cubs' theme and say "we did good, we'll do better next year!" and one wouldn't get the sense that he was ready to pound his head on the table about this year's shortcomings.

And I know that KW is not the entire organization, but would he really stay in a job where his hands were tied with respect to getting rid of a coach? Again, impossible to imagine that given what we, and everyone in baseball, knows of KW.

And finally, loyalty to a hitting coach? One of the lower life forms in the organization, frankly; I could understand loyalty to a GM or an AGM, but a hitting coach? Only if Greg Walker were married to JR's daughter could I make sense of that. (He's not, is he?)

So I am not convinced by your theory, because it seems to me that you are saying that JR and KW and OG would rather have Greg Walker employed by the Sox than they would have another WS trophy. To which I can only say: :rolleyes:

I think you and I should get married.

TheCommander
09-24-2009, 08:47 PM
I'm glad you've been a fan for such a long time, and it's great that you've stuck with the team through good years as well as the bad. Many people don't. However, that is irrelevant to this discussion.

I don't find it so much troubling when people suggest they should look into letting him go. If anyone can provide concrete reasons as to why what he is doing is causing the lineup to perform the way it is, or can prove (with specifics) that he is not doing everything that can be humanly done to fix the problems, or that his "philosophy" is causing the issues, I will listen.

What I believe is that when people don't have all the information, they shouldn't act like they have all the information and say things like, "it is inexcusable that Greg Walker is still employed here!" That bothers me because there's a confident assumption that he is the root of the problem.

In reality, nobody knows that to be true. People are only guessing, and thinking that somehow firing that one guy would change everything. Those same people don't realize that his position does not have as great of an effect on the outcome on the field as they think. I think people sometimes think the hitting coach is the same as an offensive coordinator in football, or at least believe the two have similar control over the results.

It's one thing to wonder if Greg Walker is the heart of the issue, it's another to be certain of it when you have no evidence of how the relationship works and what he does with his players.

As for the "lifetime" gigs thing, if you really examine that, it doesn't make sense. Let's think about what southside_rocks said: if Walker was really the problem, don't you think they'd know it? And if they knew it, don't you think they'd do something about it? I mean, really think about this....

Firing a hitting coach is an easy thing to do...relatively small salary, fans won't freak out over it, no union to deal with, no multi-year, multi-million dollar contract to worry about eating, easy to replace, etc. Having a poor offense hurts the team's chances to win. Not winning causes less people to buy tickets, which affects revenue and makes it less likely to make the postseason, which affects revenue. There are many who believe Reinsdorf is all about making money, well wouldn't it stand to reason that he wouldn't do things he knows will hurt revenue? Loyalty? Please. People are loyal to a point when it affects revenue.

Like southside said, they've fired coaches before. You don't think they felt some loyalty to Rock? They wouldn't have fired him if there wasn't a reason to do it.

Unless you just figure they don't realize it, of course. In that case, you believe they're stupid and don't know what they're doing. That would mean that you seriously think they have no idea how to run a major league baseball team and are completely blind to the fact that one hitting coach is the source of all of their troubles. In that view, they are too stupid to realize it and want to continue losing because they are loyal to Greg Walker. In other words, you believe they would rather lose games and go through these troubles again than execute a simple solution to fix the whole thing...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/215/550016866_3c051ef9b7.jpg

southside rocks
09-24-2009, 08:53 PM
I think you and I should get married.

Swept off my feet by some charmer I met on the internet ... what a story to tell our kids ... :D:

Frater Perdurabo
09-24-2009, 08:56 PM
So I am not convinced by your theory, because it seems to me that you are saying that JR and KW and OG would rather have Greg Walker employed by the Sox than they would have another WS trophy. To which I can only say: :rolleyes:

JR also chose Jerry Krause over Phil Jackson and Michael Jordan.

Danielgosox38
09-24-2009, 09:07 PM
That would be a reason to keep Walker on if he were not performing; however, I know several people who know Kenny Williams personally, and I challenge you to show me any evidence that KW values loyalty above winning. Seasons like this cause serious damage to the Williams stomach lining, and I don't think that's much of a secret.

If KW valued loyalty above winning, he wouldn't be so irate in the years when the team falls short; he would more play the Cubs' theme and say "we did good, we'll do better next year!" and one wouldn't get the sense that he was ready to pound his head on the table about this year's shortcomings.

And I know that KW is not the entire organization, but would he really stay in a job where his hands were tied with respect to getting rid of a coach? Again, impossible to imagine that given what we, and everyone in baseball, knows of KW.

And finally, loyalty to a hitting coach? One of the lower life forms in the organization, frankly; I could understand loyalty to a GM or an AGM, but a hitting coach? Only if Greg Walker were married to JR's daughter could I make sense of that. (He's not, is he?)

So I am not convinced by your theory, because it seems to me that you are saying that JR and KW and OG would rather have Greg Walker employed by the Sox than they would have another WS trophy. To which I can only say: :rolleyes:


Good to see you are a company "Yes man", when you don't even work for the organization. :rolleyes:

captain54
09-24-2009, 09:11 PM
it's another to be certain of it when you have no evidence of how the relationship works and what he does with his players.

Where's your cold hard evidence that the White Sox offense wouldn't improve with another hitting coaching? You are offering merely an opinion, regardless of your astute and keen knowledge of the inner workings of the White Sox organization.

That would mean that you seriously think they have no idea how to run a major league baseball team and are completely blind to the fact that one hitting coach is the source of all of their troubles.

I never said one hitting coach was the source of all the troubles. I've said all along its the offensive approach that sucks, the hitting coach being a cog in that defective piece of machinery.

That being said, neither of us really do know for sure what goes on in behind closed doors and what's discussed in the offices of the White Sox hierarchy.

And by the way, Raines didn't come on the scene until 91', so he's not part of the mid 80's Baines/Walker/Ozzie/Williams quartet.

My friend lives in Los Angeles and works as an actor. People are constantly hiring coaches. Some coaches are cheap, some are medium priced, some are very expensive. The top coaches coach the stars, are in demand, and thus demand top dollar. There's a reason why they demand top dollar....they get the maximum results from people.

The point is, there are bad coaches, decent coaches, and outstanding coaches, despite your claim that its all on the players....some are simply better than others.....If Reinsdorf/Williams found a better hitting coach, I'm sure that guy would command a bit more money and maybe want to come in with his own philosophy and his own way of doing things. You know as well as I that those types of individuals don't always sit well and stay long in the Reinsdorfian Era.

RockJock07
09-24-2009, 09:52 PM
David Haugh's first Sox story in his new "In the wake of the news..." column is pretty good in my opinion:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-24-haugh-ken-williams-sep24,0,7170045.column

Says what a lot of Sox fans have been saying since the spring, this team for all practical purposes was rebuilding, regardless of whether Kenny would publicly admit it or not.

Lip

Most teams won't admit their are rebuilding however if most Sox fans did believe that from the start then I'd say we shouldn't be mad at the outcome of this season. To be honest I don't remember where I thought the sox would finish at the start of the season but I will say that while the past few months have been disappointing that being in it up until lately has been encouraging going into next season.

I think Kenny saw that the Sox were closer than he expected at the trade deadline decided to pull the trigger on Peavy to go for it this season while still planning for future season. I think he got his heart ripped out when this team decided to **** the bed the last couple of months. Generally if Kenny is so disappointed in this team he needs to fix it but I'm not sure how that's going to happen due to some of the contracts on the books.

Also, listening to his comments does anyone feel like he's lost with this team? Like he doesn't know where to turn? I'm guessing that he wishes the end of the season in tomorrow.

Lip Man 1
09-24-2009, 10:09 PM
Question for all including Chris.

Kenny has said more than once to the mainstream media that the decisions on coaches belongs to Ozzie, that it's his decision and he stays out of that area.

Is that true?

If so, then everyone saying Kenny needs to fire / not fire Walker are off base, since if I understand it correctly, it's Ozzie's call.

Lip

SI1020
09-24-2009, 11:04 PM
Over the last 3+ years the Sox are now 19 games under .500. Yet we can't have a conversation calling anybody, Greg Walker or otherwise to account for this extended period of bad baseball. Right now, lots of things are wrong with this team. Being old enough to actually remember the 59 season it was especially gratifying to have lasted long enough to experience a World Series winner. I'll never make it another 84 years. Oh and I totally agree with those that state Reinsdorf values loyalty above all else. He's not the first high powered business type to operate that way.

southside rocks
09-25-2009, 07:07 AM
JR also chose Jerry Krause over Phil Jackson and Michael Jordan.


I don't know enough to answer that because I don't follow basketball. I'm a one-sport girl. :cool:

If I ever did become convinced of the truth of your theory -- that loyalty means more to this current Sox ownership than winning does -- then I would not renew my season ticket package and I would probably never buy another ticket while JR &Co. owns the team. Because that's a cardinal sin in sports management, and if guilty of it, that would make Reinsdorf a worse owner than the Allyns were.

But simply keeping Greg Walker on the staff is not enough to make me think that.

spawn
09-25-2009, 07:30 AM
Good to see you are a company "Yes man", when you don't even work for the organization. :rolleyes:
You haven't exactly presented as well an argument for the Sox firing Walker, other than "Walker is failing as a hitting coach" and this gem of a post.

Danielgosox38
09-25-2009, 09:04 AM
You haven't exactly presented as well an argument for the Sox firing Walker, other than "Walker is failing as a hitting coach" and this gem of a post.


The Sox have not had a consistent offense since the first half of 06. I don't see why people think that he SHOULDN'T go.

spawn
09-25-2009, 09:31 AM
The Sox have had a consistent offense since the first half of 06. I don't see why people think that he SHOULDN'T go.
:scratch: Having a consistent offense means he shouldn't go then.

You still haven't explained why the lack of offense is completely Walker's fault. You don't know his philosophy on hitting. You don't know how he prepares the offense as far as attacking opposing pitchers. Is it Walker's fault that JD has had a miserable second half of the season after having a damn good first half? Is he responsible for Pods' resurgence this season, or for AJ hitting over .300, or Konerko rebounding from a terrible '08? Like I said before, he can't swing the bat for anyone. I guess I'm in the minority in thinking indivdual hitters are more responsible for their actions than the hitting coach. :shrug:

Danielgosox38
09-25-2009, 09:38 AM
When an offense has struggled as long as ours have, whether it is Walker's fault or not, you got to set an example, shake things up, and see if anything changes. Other organizations do things like this, why can't the Sox?

spawn
09-25-2009, 09:48 AM
When an offense has struggled as long as ours have, whether it is Walker's fault or not, you got to set an example, shake things up, and see if anything changes. Other organizations do things like this, why can't the Sox?
First of all, I don't believe in firing coaches to set an example, and I think it would be pretty stupid to fire a coach that was doing their job to "shake things up". Also, organizations fire coaches who they perceive are not doing their jobs. The Sox have done this under the current regime. Again, I tend to hold he player more responsible than the hitting coach.

Danielgosox38
09-25-2009, 09:52 AM
First of all, I don't believe in firing coaches to set an example, and I think it would be pretty stupid to fire a coach that was doing their job to "shake things up". Also, organizations fire coaches who they perceive are not doing their jobs. The Sox have done this under the current regime. Again, I tend to hold he player more responsible than the hitting coach.


It would be different, if this hadn't been going on for 3 years now. What would getting a new hitting coach hurt? What do we have to lose? Our offense has sucked for 3 years now. What is there to lose?

Tragg
09-25-2009, 09:56 AM
Add Phil's column:

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/09/what-about-vazquez-and-swisher.html

Seems to take a level headed approach to this. The very last line seems to sum everything up pretty well.

Lip
He's right, but I would ask who was it that drummmed Swisher, Vasquez and Cabrera off the team?

spawn
09-25-2009, 09:57 AM
It would be different, if this hadn't been going on for 3 years now. What would getting a new hitting coach hurt? What do we have to lose? Our offense has sucked for 3 years now. What is there to lose?
And how long has Walker been the hitting coach? And why fire a coach just to fire a coach? It still makes no sense. Also, why aren't you holding the individual player responsible? After all, it is their job to hit, isn't it?

SI1020
09-25-2009, 10:01 AM
Players come and go, and of course some have been with the team for a good while. The only constant is a variety of hitting failures.

spawn
09-25-2009, 10:02 AM
Players come and go, and of course some have been with the team for a good while. The only constant is a variety of hitting failures.
...and a variety of hitting successes.

dickallen15
09-25-2009, 10:05 AM
It would be different, if this hadn't been going on for 3 years now. What would getting a new hitting coach hurt? What do we have to lose? Our offense has sucked for 3 years now. What is there to lose?
A lot.
If you don't hold accountable the people who really are at fault, nothing will change. If a player's poor performance, or lack of execution, is blamed on a coach, why would they ever get better? They can only get praised for what goes right. If something goes wrong, its never their fault. Its laughable, but plenty here see it that way. When Quentin had an MVP like year, according to some, Walker had nothing to do with it, it was all Quentin. When Konerko was hitting below .200 when Walker became the hitting coach in 2003 and hit .275 the second half of that year and hit 40 homers a couple of times after that, and was a big reason there is a championship trophy on the south side, when Konerko gave praise to Walker, many here said,,"well what do you expect him to say". Its amazing how many people think Walker is garbage but have no idea what he preaches or even a clue as to what his job responsibilities are. Maybe if the Sox fired Cooper their bullpen would be better. I'm pretty sure the White Sox know the problem isn't the coach. Its the personnel.

voodoochile
09-25-2009, 10:11 AM
He's right, but I would ask who was it that drummmed Swisher, Vasquez and Cabrera off the team?
The fans?

Swisher and Vazquez were both at least in part monetary decisions. Cabrera was viewed as expendable because of the development of TCM and Getz.

Danielgosox38
09-25-2009, 10:12 AM
And how long has Walker been the hitting coach? And why fire a coach just to fire a coach? It still makes no sense. Also, why aren't you holding the individual player responsible? After all, it is their job to hit, isn't it?


I never said they shouldn't be held responsible. They deserve their share of the blame too.

voodoochile
09-25-2009, 10:17 AM
A lot.
If you don't hold accountable the people who really are at fault, nothing will change. If a player's poor performance, or lack of execution, is blamed on a coach, why would they ever get better? They can only get praised for what goes right. If something goes wrong, its never their fault. Its laughable, but plenty here see it that way. When Quentin had an MVP like year, according to some, Walker had nothing to do with it, it was all Quentin. When Konerko was hitting below .200 when Walker became the hitting coach in 2003 and hit .275 the second half of that year and hit 40 homers a couple of times after that, and was a big reason there is a championship trophy on the south side, when Konerko gave praise to Walker, many here said,,"well what do you expect him to say". Its amazing how many people think Walker is garbage but have no idea what he preaches or even a clue as to what his job responsibilities are. Maybe if the Sox fired Cooper their bullpen would be better. I'm pretty sure the White Sox know the problem isn't the coach. Its the personnel.

:clap:

I couldn't have said this better. The fans calling for Walker's head are dealing with an incomplete picture. They see negative results and want someone to blame, but if the Sox hold the wrong person accountable, then they are merely allowing the problem to fester.

Figure out what players are staying and what players are going that's where the emphasis should be.

captain54
09-25-2009, 10:31 AM
A lot.
If you don't hold accountable the people who really are at fault, nothing will change. If a player's poor performance, or lack of execution, is blamed on a coach, why would they ever get better? They can only get praised for what goes right. If something goes wrong, its never their fault. Its laughable, but plenty here see it that way..

Equally as laughable is your and others steadfast contention that Walker isn't even remotely part of the problem, without taking into consideration the fact that offensively, beside hitting homeruns in a hitters paradise, the Sox offensive approach is highly suspect, even during the 05 WS season.

I could juxtapose your initial statement and it would make a good argument for making a change in the hitting coach.

"If you don't hold accountable the coach who really are at fault, nothing will change. If a coach's poor performance, or lack of execution, is blamed on a player, why would they ever get better?

As for the examples of Quentin and Konerko, if Walker was so instrumental in these guy's success, why couldn't he wave his magic wand in 09' and turn Quentin around? why couldn't he save Konerko from his occasionally serious funks, or his penchant for grounding in double plays?

The Walker lovers have hammered home their point. Walker can only do so much, the rest is up to the players. What you have successfully done, with this argument, is to completely take Walker off the hook for any responsiblity whatsoever, and taken away any standard for him to be judged on his performance. Yet, players are continually judged on their performance and are either dealt, released, or sent down based upon said performance.

dickallen15
09-25-2009, 10:44 AM
Equally as laughable is your and others steadfast contention that Walker isn't even remotely part of the problem, without taking into consideration the fact that offensively, beside hitting homeruns in a hitters paradise, the Sox offensive approach is highly suspect, even during the 05 WS season.

I could juxtapose your initial statement and it would make a good argument for making a change in the hitting coach.

"If you don't hold accountable the coach who really are at fault, nothing will change. If a coach's poor performance, or lack of execution, is blamed on a player, why would they ever get better?

As for the examples of Quentin and Konerko, if Walker was so instrumental in these guy's success, why couldn't he wave his magic wand in 09' and turn Quentin around? why couldn't he save Konerko from his occasionally serious funks, or his penchant for grounding in double plays?

.

Quentin has been hurt. Konerko was hurt last year and bounced back pretty well. Pods has done better than expected. Getz and Beckham and AJP have done better or at least what could be expected. Ramirez has done a lot better offensively than anyone could have imagined when he signed. Dye was great in the first half, so using your logic Walker must have been a genius, but then must have had some brain damage around the all star break. The White Sox had a bad mix of offensive talent. When they improve that, the offense will improve. It will not improve if the personnel remains the same but a new hitting coach is hired. BTW, you may want to check your last statement. Konerko has grounded into 14 DP this year. That's 7 less than Pujols, 5 less than Alex Rios, 4 less than Jeter and 4 less than Pedroia. His total isn't even in the top 50 in baseball.

spawn
09-25-2009, 10:48 AM
A lot.
If you don't hold accountable the people who really are at fault, nothing will change. If a player's poor performance, or lack of execution, is blamed on a coach, why would they ever get better? They can only get praised for what goes right. If something goes wrong, its never their fault. Its laughable, but plenty here see it that way. When Quentin had an MVP like year, according to some, Walker had nothing to do with it, it was all Quentin. When Konerko was hitting below .200 when Walker became the hitting coach in 2003 and hit .275 the second half of that year and hit 40 homers a couple of times after that, and was a big reason there is a championship trophy on the south side, when Konerko gave praise to Walker, many here said,,"well what do you expect him to say". Its amazing how many people think Walker is garbage but have no idea what he preaches or even a clue as to what his job responsibilities are. Maybe if the Sox fired Cooper their bullpen would be better. I'm pretty sure the White Sox know the problem isn't the coach. Its the personnel.
Bravo! Great post.

Hitmen77
09-25-2009, 10:53 AM
Scot Gregor of The Daily Herald has a pretty good summary of the Kenny Williams press conference:

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=324023&src=162

Here are two noteworthy points:

1. KW pretty much ruled out going after any top free agents. He claims one of the reasons is that it will cost them a #1 draft pick. That's not true given the Sox record, but I guess it still provides a good excuse.

2. JR has indicated that the Sox are bracing for another round of lost sponsors for 2010.

captain54
09-25-2009, 10:55 AM
The White Sox had a bad mix of offensive talent. When they improve that, the offense will improve.

So the Sox must have had a bad mix of offensive talent since 05', because since then (despite being able to hit homeruns) the offensive approach has been highly suspect.

If you take Konerko's average over a number of years, you might find a different story. I will give you though, that his speed has a lot to do with it.

The stat that not tabulated though, is WHEN those DP's occur, and it always seems like it's momentum turning.

Lip Man 1
09-25-2009, 11:11 AM
Hitmen:

I don't think the Sox economics are as dire as some are projecting...just my opinion... but more importantly when was the last time Kenny revealed his true intentions to the media about his plans?

Lip

Jimmy Piersall
09-25-2009, 11:24 AM
Hitmen:

I don't think the Sox economics are as dire as some are projecting...just my opinion... but more importantly when was the last time Kenny revealed his true intentions to the media about his plans?

Lip

Sliding under the radar huh ? sounds like Kenny here.Fake one way
and then go the other.If he can move a big dollar guy that we don't
expect,he can still do something...i hope.

voodoochile
09-25-2009, 11:33 AM
Sliding under the radar huh ? sounds like Kenny here.Fake one way
and then go the other.If he can move a big dollar guy that we don't
expect,he can still do something...i hope.

Will depend on ST sales too. Personally, I think they will remain pretty stable with people excited about the rotation offsetting the people who are dumping their tickets for whatever reason. They might take off if KW can land a big bat. I'd think there would be some players willing to take a chance on signing here based on the talent in the rotation alone.

Certainly the Sox should look attractive on paper for the next 3 years when FA's are making decisions.

captain54
09-25-2009, 11:34 AM
I'm pretty sure the White Sox know the problem isn't the coach. Its the personnel.

Okay kids, let's take a little look into the life of Greg Walker, as the Walker lovers see it, only translated in everyday terms.

Big Cheese Boss: "Hey Joe, I noticed your sales numbers are down this year to date...any explanation?"

Joe Blow Salesman: "Jeez, boss I wish they were better, but you know these widgets you are giving me to sell..I think this things need to be replaced or completely redesigned. It would sure make my life easier."

Big Cheese Boss: "Okay, no problem, Joe. We'll get right on it. I apologize for the inconvenience and I hope we can turn this around for you so you can start making your quota again."

dickallen15
09-25-2009, 11:35 AM
So the Sox must have had a bad mix of offensive talent since 05', because since then (despite being able to hit homeruns) the offensive approach has been highly suspect.

If you take Konerko's average over a number of years, you might find a different story. I will give you though, that his speed has a lot to do with it.

The stat that not tabulated though, is WHEN those DP's occur, and it always seems like it's momentum turning.

So if Konerko hits into a DP at a key moment, changing the hitting coach is what will cure it. I rip White Sox management as much as anyone, however, blaming someone who isn't at fault is silly. KW also said Baines, Cora and Ozzie contribute to the hitting coach duties. Should they be fired as well? Who exactly do the Sox have that if the proper (In your mind, and how about a name) hitting coach were installed, would hit 30 points higher, never ground into a DP, never go into a slump, etc. You just aren't realistic. For some reason you think changing the hitting coach will make the White Sox a great hitting team.

dickallen15
09-25-2009, 11:39 AM
Okay kids, let's take a little look into the life of Greg Walker, as the Walker lovers see it, only translated in everyday terms.

Big Cheese Boss: "Hey Joe, I noticed your sales numbers are down this year to date...any explanation?"

Joe Blow Salesman: "Jeez, boss I wish they were better, but you know these widgets you are giving me to sell..I think this things need to be replaced or completely redesigned. It would sure make my life easier."

Big Cheese Boss: "Okay, no problem, Joe. We'll get right on it. I apologize for the inconvenience and I hope we can turn this around for you so you can start making your quota again."

Exactly. The White Sox offense has been station to station with big thumpers who are very streaky. If they aren't hitting homers it usually takes at least 2 or 3 hits to score men on base. That will keep the numbers very inconsistent. A hitting coach isn't going to change that.

voodoochile
09-25-2009, 11:39 AM
Okay kids, let's take a little look into the life of Greg Walker, as the Walker lovers see it, only translated in everyday terms.

Big Cheese Boss: "Hey Joe, I noticed your sales numbers are down this year to date...any explanation?"

Joe Blow Salesman: "Jeez, boss I wish they were better, but you know these widgets you are giving me to sell..I think this things need to be replaced or completely redesigned. It would sure make my life easier."

Big Cheese Boss: "Okay, no problem, Joe. We'll get right on it. I apologize for the inconvenience and I hope we can turn this around for you so you can start making your quota again."

Nice analogy, too bad it has nothing to do with the current situation unless you think it takes some innate skill to sell widgets that only a few 100ths of a percent of people world wide can master and do at a high level. If those people are also prone to slumps you'd be closer to reality.

In short, nice strawman. I knocked it down for you. NEXT!

spawn
09-25-2009, 11:48 AM
Okay kids, let's take a little look into the life of Greg Walker, as the Walker lovers see it, only translated in everyday terms.

Big Cheese Boss: "Hey Joe, I noticed your sales numbers are down this year to date...any explanation?"

Joe Blow Salesman: "Jeez, boss I wish they were better, but you know these widgets you are giving me to sell..I think this things need to be replaced or completely redesigned. It would sure make my life easier."

Big Cheese Boss: "Okay, no problem, Joe. We'll get right on it. I apologize for the inconvenience and I hope we can turn this around for you so you can start making your quota again."
Dumbest. Analogy. Ever.

Tragg
09-25-2009, 11:56 AM
The fans?

Swisher and Vazquez were both at least in part monetary decisions. Cabrera was viewed as expendable because of the development of TCM and Getz.
Monetary? So we go get Peavy and Rios?
Yes, the "conventional wisdom" on here was that Swisher and Javy needed to go; but that was simply following the wisdom of the manager.

voodoochile
09-25-2009, 12:02 PM
Monetary? So we go get Peavy and Rios?
Yes, the "conventional wisdom" on here was that Swisher and Javy needed to go; but that was simply following the wisdom of the manager.

We didn't get them last winter and the money they are getting paid next year is coming off the books already. How many times does that need to be typed before people will stop using it?

Zisk77
09-25-2009, 12:16 PM
I think Kenny will try to add some pieces through free agency. I also think he is crying poor to brace us for the possibility that he may be outbid for those free agents.

North Sox Sider
09-25-2009, 12:41 PM
I just did some checking on Baseball-Reference on team batting average for this past decade. Under Greg Walker's regime, this team has only been better than half of AL teams just once, 2006. The Sox batted .280 and was 4th best in the league. Except for that year the Sox, as a team, have placed (2004) 8/14; (2005) 11/14; (2007) 14/14; (2008) 11/14 and this year on a pace for 10/14 teams. I also looked at what Von Joshua and Gary Ward did as hitting coaches and in (2000) 3/14; (2001) 5/14;(2002) 7/14 and in (2003) 11/14. I know the team batting average is not the most important stat in the world but lets face it, this team is not improving while GW is teaching this offense.

JNS
09-25-2009, 12:47 PM
I don't get the revisionism around Swisher and Javy. Rogers wrote a fairly dumb piece about it in the Trib.

I don't miss either of them.

Swisher: Where you gonna play HIM? and of course he's hitting better in NY. Who you gonna pitch to - ARod, Jeter, or Swish? SO of course he's doing fine there.

Javy? Gutless. Stats and damn lies where he's concerned. With the bad D and un-timely hitting he would have been even worse for the Sox in 08. He's more suited to the AAAA league.

dickallen15
09-25-2009, 01:08 PM
I just did some checking on Baseball-Reference on team batting average for this past decade. Under Greg Walker's regime, this team has only been better than half of AL teams just once, 2006. The Sox batted .280 and was 4th best in the league. Except for that year the Sox, as a team, have placed (2004) 8/14; (2005) 11/14; (2007) 14/14; (2008) 11/14 and this year on a pace for 10/14 teams. I also looked at what Von Joshua and Gary Ward did as hitting coaches and in (2000) 3/14; (2001) 5/14;(2002) 7/14 and in (2003) 11/14. I know the team batting average is not the most important stat in the world but lets face it, this team is not improving while GW is teaching this offense.
How many of those teams had Dewayne Wise the opening day leadoff man. How many had Brent Lillibridge and Jayson Nix leading off?

The Cubs had a guy under whom they scored well over 800 runs last year. They got off to a slow start and fired Gerald Perry replacing him with Von Joshua. Many people said,"see, why don't the Sox do that with Walker". How exactly did that work out for the Cubs? If players are forced to accept accountability, it might take some time, but eventually they will. The White Sox are doing the right thing. The offense is a problem but the hitting coach is not. Some people can't get that through their heads that that is even remotely possible.

PorkChopExpress
09-25-2009, 01:29 PM
The way I see it, the hitting coach and the offense are inseparable. One is not more to blame than the other, because, as has been pointed out in this thread, the same arguments can be made for or against either. It seems like no matter what players we bring in, they tend to succumb to the same deficiencies as our other hitters, i.e., prolonged slumps, inability to hit unseen pitchers, trouble with soft-tossing lefties, and whatever other stereotypical Sox offensive struggles we have seen over the past few years. Whose fault is it? I don't see how someone can pinpoint the source, but if someone could show me a hitting coach who has proven to be able to take bad hitters and make them better, I'd be willing to take a shot on him over Walker. Until then, let's hope a different look to the lineup next year makes a difference.

And just for the record, I have been in favor of getting rid of Walker, but just for the hopeful "shake-up" effect it may have, and not because I believe he is to blame. At least not yet.

Nellie_Fox
09-25-2009, 01:40 PM
Okay kids, let's take a little look into the life of Greg Walker, as the Walker lovers see it, only translated in everyday terms.

Big Cheese Boss: "Hey Joe, I noticed your sales numbers are down this year to date...any explanation?"

Joe Blow Salesman: "Jeez, boss I wish they were better, but you know these widgets you are giving me to sell..I think this things need to be replaced or completely redesigned. It would sure make my life easier."

Big Cheese Boss: "Okay, no problem, Joe. We'll get right on it. I apologize for the inconvenience and I hope we can turn this around for you so you can start making your quota again."Better use of your analogy:

Joe Blow Salesman: "Well, since I suck, and since you're my supervisor, I guess you should get fired. Sorry boss."

SI1020
09-25-2009, 03:37 PM
...and a variety of hitting successes. That's a nice thought but then there is reality.

I just did some checking on Baseball-Reference on team batting average for this past decade. Under Greg Walker's regime, this team has only been better than half of AL teams just once, 2006. The Sox batted .280 and was 4th best in the league. Except for that year the Sox, as a team, have placed (2004) 8/14; (2005) 11/14; (2007) 14/14; (2008) 11/14 and this year on a pace for 10/14 teams. I also looked at what Von Joshua and Gary Ward did as hitting coaches and in (2000) 3/14; (2001) 5/14;(2002) 7/14 and in (2003) 11/14. I know the team batting average is not the most important stat in the world but lets face it, this team is not improving while GW is teaching this offense.

Danielgosox38
09-25-2009, 03:43 PM
I just did some checking on Baseball-Reference on team batting average for this past decade. Under Greg Walker's regime, this team has only been better than half of AL teams just once, 2006. The Sox batted .280 and was 4th best in the league. Except for that year the Sox, as a team, have placed (2004) 8/14; (2005) 11/14; (2007) 14/14; (2008) 11/14 and this year on a pace for 10/14 teams. I also looked at what Von Joshua and Gary Ward did as hitting coaches and in (2000) 3/14; (2001) 5/14;(2002) 7/14 and in (2003) 11/14. I know the team batting average is not the most important stat in the world but lets face it, this team is not improving while GW is teaching this offense.


These are facts. It's obvious why the guy shouldn't stay. I don't know why the FOGW cannot see that.

spawn
09-25-2009, 03:57 PM
These are facts. It's obvious why the guy shouldn't stay. I don't know why the FOGW cannot see that.
Do you have anything else to back up your argument other than agreeing to information someone else put up or dumbass nicknames?

That's a nice thought but then there is reality.
The reality is the Sox have had some hitting success and some hitting failures. Those were some nice stats that you quoted, but take a look at some of the lineups that were run out during the time frames listed:

The 2000 Opening day lineup:

Ray Durham
Jose Valentin
Frank Thomas
Magglio Ordonez
Paul Konerko
Chris Singleton
Carlos Lee
Craig Wilson
Mark Johnson

Record: 95-67- First Place

2001:

Ray Durham
Jose Valentin
Frank Thomas
Magglio Ordonez
Paul Konerko
Carlos Lee
Herbert Perry
Sandy Alomar Jr.
Royce Clayton

Record: 83-79- 3rd Place

2002:

Kenny Lofton
Ray Durham
Frank Thomas
Magglio Ordonez
Paul Konerko
Jose Valentin
Carlos Lee
Sandy Alomar Jr.
Royce Clayton

Record: 81-81- Second Place

2003:

D'Angelo Jimenez
Aaron Rowand
Frank Thomas
Magglio Ordonez
Paul Konerko
Jose Valentin
Carlos Lee
Sandy Alomar Jr.
Joe Crede

Record- 86-76- Second Place

Anytime you have OBP machines like Frank Thomas and Maggs, along with RBI producers such as Konerko and Carlos Lee, your numbers will look pretty damn good. Those teams also didn't have a lot of station to station base cloggers in the lineup. Sometimes, stats don't tell the whole story.

Frater Perdurabo
09-25-2009, 04:16 PM
If I ever did become convinced of the truth of your theory -- that loyalty means more to this current Sox ownership than winning does --

I did not say that JR values winning less than loyalty.

But winning cannot be controlled. Loyalty can.

I think JR believes loyalty is the path to winning.

I don't think JR (or by extension, this organization) puts up with gross incompetence. But I do think he tolerates mediocrity from loyal employees. Walker is mediocre, but he's loyal, so he stays.

Danielgosox38
09-25-2009, 04:22 PM
Do you have anything else to back up your argument other than agreeing to information someone else put up or dumbass nicknames?


The reality is the Sox have had some hitting success and some hitting failures. Those were some nice stats that you quoted, but take a look at some of the lineups that were run out during the time frames listed:

The 2000 Opening day lineup:

Ray Durham
Jose Valentin
Frank Thomas
Magglio Ordonez
Paul Konerko
Chris Singleton
Carlos Lee
Craig Wilson
Mark Johnson

Record: 95-67- First Place

2001:

Ray Durham
Jose Valentin
Frank Thomas
Magglio Ordonez
Paul Konerko
Carlos Lee
Herbert Perry
Sandy Alomar Jr.
Royce Clayton

Record: 83-79- 3rd Place

2002:

Kenny Lofton
Ray Durham
Frank Thomas
Magglio Ordonez
Paul Konerko
Jose Valentin
Carlos Lee
Sandy Alomar Jr.
Royce Clayton

Record: 81-81- Second Place

2003:

D'Angelo Jimenez
Aaron Rowand
Frank Thomas
Magglio Ordonez
Paul Konerko
Jose Valentin
Carlos Lee
Sandy Alomar Jr.
Joe Crede

Record- 86-76- Second Place

Anytime you have OBP machines like Frank Thomas and Maggs, along with RBI producers such as Konerko and Carlos Lee, your numbers will look pretty damn good. Those teams also didn't have a lot of station to station base cloggers in the lineup. Sometimes, stats don't tell the whole story.



Fan(s) of or Friend(s) of are common used references at WSI. No need to flame me the way you did. I didn't flame you like that. And what do you want me to add? Every logical reason for Walker to be fired has been posted on WSI numerous times. It's obvious neither side is going to agree on this. Agree to disagree then.

spawn
09-25-2009, 04:27 PM
Fan(s) of or Friend(s) of are common used references at WSI. No need to flame me the way you did. I didn't flame you like that.
1. I know what Fan(s) or Friend(s) is. It's still a pretty damn stupid characterization to me.

2. I didn't flame you. I flamed your post. There is a difference. If you're going to be thin-skinned when someone criticizes your posts, then maybe you shouldn't post here.

captain54
09-25-2009, 04:54 PM
Dumbest. Analogy. Ever.

we finally agree....it does sound pretty dumb...but only because its an exact parallel to what is going on.

captain54
09-25-2009, 05:03 PM
Better use of your analogy:

Joe Blow Salesman: "Well, since I suck, and since you're my supervisor, I guess you should get fired. Sorry boss."

the reason the analogy works is because it illustrates the point that is trying to be made by many on this board

that Walker is doing all he can do, and he'd be a better hitting coach if he had better talent.

Danielgosox38
09-25-2009, 05:17 PM
Spawn,

In your opinion what has Greg Walker done that allows him to deserve to stay? There are many reasons why he should leave.... IE: Terrible clutch hitting, terrible fundamentals, awful plate approach, we were shutout several times, the list goes on and on...

And this has been going on now for 3 years. Everyone has presented their argument as to why Walker should leave. Why do you think that he should stay? What has he done to be awarded an extension the past few years?

spawn
09-25-2009, 05:23 PM
Spawn,

In your opinion what has Greg Walker done that allows him to deserve to stay? There are many reasons why he should leave.... IE: Terrible clutch hitting, terrible fundamentals, awful plate approach, we were shutout several times, the list goes on and on...

And this has been going on now for 3 years. Everyone has presented their argument as to why Walker should leave. Why do you think that he should stay? What has he done to be awarded an extension the past few years?
I don't really know if he's the problem or not. I don't know what his philosophy on hitting is, nor do I know what approach he tells the players to take. As I stated before, when a team hits well, I believe the hitting coach gets too much credit. When they do badly, I think he gets too much of the blame. I firmly believe it is the player that should be held ultimately responsible. No one gives Walker credit when the offense is clicking, but have no problem criticizing him when it does poorly. There are players that are/were in this lineup that are free swinging, homerun-or-nothing hitters that clog the bases. How many times did the White Sox get 3-4 hits an inning and either score 1 or no runs? How many times were liners hit right at a defender? How many times was a runner not allowed to score from a medium depth fly ball because of their lack of speed? How many times was a runner thrown out at home because he didn't have the speed to score from second on a base hit? For a while, it was the middle of the lineup, veteran hitters, that wasn't producing. Sometimes, the numbers don't tell the whole story.

I'm not saying Walker doesn't deserve to be fired. I personally don't have enough information and am not inside the Sox clubhouse to know what approach he tells the hitters to take when facing certain pitchers. I don't know enough to make an informed judgment on the matter. But I don't think he should be fired just to shake things up. Say he is doing a good job as a hitting coach and gets fired anyway? What kind of message does that send?

southside rocks
09-25-2009, 05:25 PM
I did not say that JR values winning less than loyalty.

But winning cannot be controlled. Loyalty can.

I think JR believes loyalty is the path to winning.

I don't think JR (or by extension, this organization) puts up with gross incompetence. But I do think he tolerates mediocrity from loyal employees. Walker is mediocre, but he's loyal, so he stays.

Okay, I think I get what you are saying. Absolutely, Jerry Reinsdorf has a reputation for valuing and rewarding loyalty.

But I believe that if JR got it into his head that a loyal employee was an impediment to winning, he would find that employee another position, in another area (or city!), so fast that heads would spin. He has a big network and lots of influence. If KW went to JR and said 'we have to have a new hitting coach, it's killing the team to keep Walk there' -- I believe that a press release would go out within 48 hours announcing that Greg Walker had decided to work in another branch of the organization doing blahblahblah, and the White Sox were sad to lose him as a coach but happy that he was staying with the club.

Therefore, I have to conclude that KW and OG -- and by extension JR -- do not see Walker as any kind of a problem that needs to be resolved. The fact that a number of fans DO see Walker that way speaks, I still think, more to the human desire to find a scapegoat when things become unpleasant, and less to any actual failings of Greg Walker at his job. And scapegoating is a fairly nasty side of human nature that ought not to be indulged, as we were taught when we had to read Shirley Jackson's The Lottery in 7th grade.

Failings of various hitters: that's a different story. And as has already been said a billion times, no, it's not Walk's "job" to ensure production by those hitters. People who think that's possible are IMO in fantasy-land.

But I take your point about the loyalty.

captain54
09-25-2009, 05:49 PM
And as has already been said a billion times, no, it's not Walk's "job" to ensure production by those hitters. People who think that's possible are IMO in fantasy-land.



Let me see if I understand your point...because even though its been said a billion times, its still not sinking in for me.

It's not Greg Walker's job to try to ensure or help failing hitters to become more productive, or "ensure" their productivity, as you put it. Furthermore, if I think this, I am living in a fantasy land.

Well, I guess I'm living in fantasy land. Welcome to my humble abode

Ranger
09-25-2009, 05:54 PM
A lot.
If you don't hold accountable the people who really are at fault, nothing will change. If a player's poor performance, or lack of execution, is blamed on a coach, why would they ever get better? They can only get praised for what goes right. If something goes wrong, its never their fault. Its laughable, but plenty here see it that way. When Quentin had an MVP like year, according to some, Walker had nothing to do with it, it was all Quentin. When Konerko was hitting below .200 when Walker became the hitting coach in 2003 and hit .275 the second half of that year and hit 40 homers a couple of times after that, and was a big reason there is a championship trophy on the south side, when Konerko gave praise to Walker, many here said,,"well what do you expect him to say". Its amazing how many people think Walker is garbage but have no idea what he preaches or even a clue as to what his job responsibilities are. Maybe if the Sox fired Cooper their bullpen would be better. I'm pretty sure the White Sox know the problem isn't the coach. Its the personnel.


Thank you. Do you know what it looks like to the players when they see a guy get fired for scapegoat reasons? Especially one they respect? It doesn't do any good for team morale when they see a coach fired because of their failings. A lot of people are worried about how the team responds to Ozzie....how well do you think players will respond to a manager that has a part in making that decision?

Brian26
09-25-2009, 06:57 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1472216&postcount=28

Here's a post with some of Konerko's thoughts on Walker as a coach. I posted this after Soxfest 2007.

Frater Perdurabo
09-25-2009, 08:28 PM
Okay, I think I get what you are saying. Absolutely, Jerry Reinsdorf has a reputation for valuing and rewarding loyalty.

But I believe that if JR got it into his head that a loyal employee was an impediment to winning, he would find that employee another position, in another area (or city!), so fast that heads would spin. He has a big network and lots of influence. If KW went to JR and said 'we have to have a new hitting coach, it's killing the team to keep Walk there' -- I believe that a press release would go out within 48 hours announcing that Greg Walker had decided to work in another branch of the organization doing blahblahblah, and the White Sox were sad to lose him as a coach but happy that he was staying with the club.

Therefore, I have to conclude that KW and OG -- and by extension JR -- do not see Walker as any kind of a problem that needs to be resolved. The fact that a number of fans DO see Walker that way speaks, I still think, more to the human desire to find a scapegoat when things become unpleasant, and less to any actual failings of Greg Walker at his job. And scapegoating is a fairly nasty side of human nature that ought not to be indulged, as we were taught when we had to read Shirley Jackson's The Lottery in 7th grade.

Failings of various hitters: that's a different story. And as has already been said a billion times, no, it's not Walk's "job" to ensure production by those hitters. People who think that's possible are IMO in fantasy-land.

But I take your point about the loyalty.

Tim Raines was cast aside. I would hypothesize it had nothing to do with Raines' competence or lack thereof, but rather that Raines had higher aspirations (i.e. to manage), and therefore wasn't seen to have complete blind loyalty to the KW/OG regime.

I'm not saying that Walker is to blame. I am saying that I don't think KW or OG can conceive of a universe in which the loyal Greg Walker could have any responsibilty for the Sox hitting woes for the past three-and-a-half seasons.

Walker will not be seen as a problem - or even part of the problem - as long as he remains loyal to the organization.

Ranger
09-25-2009, 10:13 PM
Tim Raines was cast aside. I would hypothesize it had nothing to do with Raines' competence or lack thereof, but rather that Raines had higher aspirations (i.e. to manage), and therefore wasn't seen to have complete blind loyalty to the KW/OG regime.


That is absolutely NOT why Raines was let go. If it were because of managerial aspirations, he would be on that track right now. Let's just say it was more an issue of work ethic.

captain54
09-25-2009, 10:41 PM
That is absolutely NOT why Raines was let go. If it were because of managerial aspirations, he would be on that track right now. Let's just say it was more an issue of work ethic.

Looks like he's on that track...meet the manager of the Newark Bears

http://www.newarkbears.com/thebears/managerandcoaches/

Ranger
09-25-2009, 11:20 PM
Looks like he's on that track...meet the manager of the Newark Bears

http://www.newarkbears.com/thebears/managerandcoaches/

Managing independent baseball is hardly the track to becoming a major league manager. Not to say it absolutely can't happen, but let's be honest here.

Raines is no longer here because of work ethic. Believe me, I like the guy, but managerial aspirations are not why he is out of the Sox organization.

Noneck
09-25-2009, 11:26 PM
http://www.newarkbears.com/thebears/managerandcoaches/


I never cared one way or another about Walker but now you convinced me. The Sox got to do what they have to do to pry The Officer from those Newark Bears. He could be the new face of the organization.

And you know what everyone says about catchers making the best managers. Interesting thought.

captain54
09-25-2009, 11:57 PM
I never cared one way or another about Walker but now you convinced me. The Sox got to do what they have to do to pry The Officer from those Newark Bears. He could be the new face of the organization.

.

I love the Cowardly Lion. A career .221 hitter as hitting coach...interesting.

Noneck
09-26-2009, 12:03 AM
I love the Cowardly Lion. A career .221 hitter as hitting coach...interesting.

Hitting coach is just a stepping stone. Tony LaRussa .199 career BA.:wink:

southside rocks
09-26-2009, 07:54 AM
Tim Raines was cast aside. I would hypothesize it had nothing to do with Raines' competence or lack thereof, but rather that Raines had higher aspirations (i.e. to manage), and therefore wasn't seen to have complete blind loyalty to the KW/OG regime.

I'm not saying that Walker is to blame. I am saying that I don't think KW or OG can conceive of a universe in which the loyal Greg Walker could have any responsibilty for the Sox hitting woes for the past three-and-a-half seasons.

Walker will not be seen as a problem - or even part of the problem - as long as he remains loyal to the organization.

Well, since we hear every year about Joey Cora interviewing with other teams for managerial positions, and it's mentioned on XM radio shows and other non-Chicago sources that Cora wants to be a MLB manager one day, I really think that managerial aspirations will not get a coach fired from the White Sox. Last time I looked, Joey Cora was still sitting at the left hand of Ozzie Guillen in the WS dugout.

I agree with you that Walker is not seen as a problem by WS management. Whether that is because he actually is not one, or because that management is blinded -- okay, made nearsighted -- by loyalty, we don't know. And I actually do think that JR and even Ozzie might let their loyalty affect their view of some personnel matters. But I have a really, really hard time including Kenny Williams in that group. I think he's got the toughness to make those calls. So the fact that he hasn't booted Walker tells me that he does not think that doing so will help the situation. Now, he might know less than some fans who post on internet boards ... but I'd be pretty comfortable with a sizable bet against that. :D:

asindc
09-26-2009, 08:34 AM
I love the Cowardly Lion. A career .221 hitter as hitting coach...interesting.

What was Cooper's ERA? Dave Duncan's?

asindc
09-26-2009, 08:41 AM
The fact that a number of fans DO see Walker that way speaks, I still think, more to the human desire to find a scapegoat when things become unpleasant, and less to any actual failings of Greg Walker at his job. And scapegoating is a fairly nasty side of human nature that ought not to be indulged, as we were taught when we had to read Shirley Jackson's The Lottery in 7th grade.

I think this succinctly sums up the motivation of some of those who are calling for Walker's firing. For the record, I personally would not lose sleep if he was fired (except if it was done to "set an example"), but because I see more pressing needs I don't call for his firing without having more evidence of him failing to do his job.

Zisk77
09-26-2009, 08:42 AM
What was Cooper's ERA? Dave Duncan's?

Duncan's was 0.00 as he was a catcher.

MisterB
09-26-2009, 02:09 PM
Duncan's was 0.00 as he was a catcher.

Cooper's was 5.27. Heck, Leo Mazzone never even pitched a game in the majors.

34 Inch Stick
09-28-2009, 01:47 PM
Managing independent baseball is hardly the track to becoming a major league manager. Not to say it absolutely can't happen, but let's be honest here.

Raines is no longer here because of work ethic. Believe me, I like the guy, but managerial aspirations are not why he is out of the Sox organization.

He certainly could not have been fired due to effectiveness. Some people value effort over results. I would have thought Ozzie would be a results guy.

asindc
09-28-2009, 02:44 PM
Duncan's was 0.00 as he was a catcher.

All the more to my point... past play does not dictate future ability or results as a coach.

Ranger
09-28-2009, 02:57 PM
That's a nice thought but then there is reality.

So you're saying there have not been any hitting successes here recently? Alright then. If you truly believe that, then an argument with you is impossible as you are operating in an entirely different universe.

we finally agree....it does sound pretty dumb...but only because its an exact parallel to what is going on.

OK, now I think you're saying things just to say them because you can't not have the last word. I had a girlfriend like this once. In the middle of an argument she would eventually start repeating things back to me that I had said to her a few minutes prior. Just so she wasn't without something to come back with. Like in the movies when someone is being attacked and they just start throwing whatever is in their reach at the attacker. Chairs, dishes, vases, books, anything they can get their hands on.

No analogy is ever dumb because it makes perfect sense. Think about what you just said.

captain54
09-28-2009, 04:18 PM
OK, now I think you're saying things just to say them because you can't not have the last word. I had a girlfriend like this once.

She was probably never like that, but after dating you, she needed SOME kind of intellectual ammunition to counter your "I'm SO much smarter than you, how can you POSSIBLY disagree with me" attitude.


No analogy is ever dumb because it makes perfect sense. Think about what you just said.

Incorrect, bunky...the very nature of an analogy is that it doesn't make sense. You are pairing two things that don't belong together. So it inherently sounds dumb.

Mod Edit: You can make your point without resorting to personal attacks. You've been warned.

salty99
09-28-2009, 04:48 PM
Chairs, dishes, vases, books, anything they can get their hands on.



How about the kitchen sink?

BTW I still think your autograph is worth more than used toilet paper..hahaha!

Ranger
09-28-2009, 06:38 PM
She was probably never like that, but after dating you, she needed SOME kind of intellectual ammunition to counter your "I'm SO much smarter than you, how can you POSSIBLY disagree with me" attitude.

Incorrect, bunky...the very nature of an analogy is that it doesn't make sense. You are pairing two things that don't belong together. So it inherently sounds dumb.

Mod Edit: You can make your point without resorting to personal attacks. You've been warned.

It's not about being able to match wits, captain. It's about making sense and not disagreeing for the sake of disagreement.

Do you know what an analogy is? The purpose of an analogy is to make sense so it can explain some other unrelated situation. They aren't supposed to be dumb. Why are we having this discussion?

captain54
09-28-2009, 06:55 PM
It's not about being able to match wits, captain. It's about making sense and not disagreeing for the sake of disagreement.

I have better things to do with my time than to come on the board and disagree just for the sake of disagreement. Also, I think suggesting I come on this board and just babble non sensically is a little unfair and a bit condescending.

Do you know what an analogy is? The purpose of an analogy is to make sense so it can explain some other unrelated situation. They aren't supposed to be dumb. Why are we having this discussion?

ANALOGY: "resemblance in some particulars between things otherwise unlike"

My interpretation of that definition is that you are taking two things that you probably wouldn't mention in the same sentence and make them sound similiar..

Your point is correct...The end result is for it all to make sense...My point is also correct...When you first read an analogy, on the surface it sounds kind of silly because you are putting things together that don't belong together.

doublem23
09-28-2009, 07:01 PM
A lot.
If you don't hold accountable the people who really are at fault, nothing will change. If a player's poor performance, or lack of execution, is blamed on a coach, why would they ever get better? They can only get praised for what goes right. If something goes wrong, its never their fault. Its laughable, but plenty here see it that way.

NOBODY HAS EVER SAID FIRING WALKER WOULDN'T BE ANYTHING BUT SYMBOLIC. But come on, it isn't even possible the Sox offense could do any worse with a new hitting coach. Despite the $100 million payrolls, the Sox offense has been a terrible joke for the better part of his tenure here. TCQ had a great season in 2008 and they still were among the least productive offenses in the American League. I'm sorry, if you're defend a guy who is getting the same results as the Royals with 10x the talent, I don't know what to say any more.

Fire Walker.

dickallen15
09-28-2009, 07:43 PM
NOBODY HAS EVER SAID FIRING WALKER WOULDN'T BE ANYTHING BUT SYMBOLIC. But come on, it isn't even possible the Sox offense could do any worse with a new hitting coach. Despite the $100 million payrolls, the Sox offense has been a terrible joke for the better part of his tenure here. TCQ had a great season in 2008 and they still were among the least productive offenses in the American League. I'm sorry, if you're defend a guy who is getting the same results as the Royals with 10x the talent, I don't know what to say any more.

Fire Walker.

Symbolic firings are dumb.

soxfanreggie
09-28-2009, 08:27 PM
But come on, it isn't even possible the Sox offense could do any worse with a new hitting coach.

I agree that a change should be made, but it could get worse. Imagine the dark clouds if it did get worse. :(:

All the more to my point... past play does not dictate future ability or results as a coach.

Agree 100%. Sometimes former stars make bad coaches. I have former players who were great players but couldn't coach their way out of a paper bag. In turn, I've had mediocre players and even the ones with the least talent be some of the best coaches.

soxinem1
09-28-2009, 09:15 PM
NOBODY HAS EVER SAID FIRING WALKER WOULDN'T BE ANYTHING BUT SYMBOLIC. But come on, it isn't even possible the Sox offense could do any worse with a new hitting coach. Despite the $100 million payrolls, the Sox offense has been a terrible joke for the better part of his tenure here. TCQ had a great season in 2008 and they still were among the least productive offenses in the American League. I'm sorry, if you're defend a guy who is getting the same results as the Royals with 10x the talent, I don't know what to say any more.

Fire Walker.

They said this with Von Joshua fired less than a year after his hitters almost scored 1000 runs. Remember the team watching football instead of hitting tapes back in 2001?

They said this after Gary Ward couldn't get them to hit to their potential.

They also said this after Ron Jackson couldn't get them to hit to their potential.

Ironically, the White Sox were ninth in runs winning the World Series, then were on a pace to score about 1100 after the first 85 games of 2006. Was Walker all of a sudden a genious? No. They just got the big hits when they needed them in 2005, then crushed the ball for three months the next season.

Should he get all the credit for Quentin's 2008 season, Beckham's strong starting MLB career, or Pods 2009 resurgence? No again.

But should Walker be fired because these hitters choke in the clutch or did not produce? No.

It seems most posters on this board believe Thome and Dye are washed up, Wise is not a major-league hitter, there are too many rookies in the lineup, etc., then how does the hitting coach heal this?

Maybe it is performance....

And while we are on it, should Coop be fired because his bullpen has cracked up in three of the past four seasons? Or that the fifth starter situation has bit the White Sox in the ass for the umpteenth season since the mid-90's?

He got so much credit for making a productive pitcher out of Matt Thornton, but what about the talent of Boone Logan, Andrew Sisco, Tony Pena, Javier Vazquez, Neal Cotts, etc.? What about Contreras pitching BP pretty much since he lost to the cubs near mid-season in 2006? What about getting Jenks conditioned properly?

Just like Walker, the answer is no. Coop can only help prepare them.

Should Cora be fired because of the lousy defensive teams we have fielded since the 2006 season? Why are they so lacking in fundamentals?The defense is his responsibility after all.

But with the silly CF pickups KW has made since 2001, is it Cora's fault that he has to make washed up players prime defenders at key positions? Again, like Walker and Coop, the answer is no. He can only work with them and try to instill the basics. Range, speed, and instincts are up to the players.

Maybe the White Sox should do something different, and that is stick by the coaches they feel are doing their jobs, and make the players more responsible for the shortcomings they exhibit.

When is anyone ever going to put the blame on the guys who acquired the players, or better yet, the players themselves?

captain54
09-28-2009, 09:45 PM
They also said this after Ron Jackson couldn't get them to hit to their potential.

As did the Red Sox when Jackson was let go after the 06 season. It happens, teams make changes in personnel when the results aren't there.

They just got the big hits when they needed them in 2005, then crushed the ball for three months the next season.

By big hits, I assume you mean HR's. When the Sox didn't hit HR's in 05', the offense struggled, as it does now. Fortunately, the pitching staff cured a lot of ills in 05.


And while we are on it, should Coop be fired because his bullpen has cracked up in three of the past four seasons?

If you look at the overall numbers this year, the Sox are 3rd in ERA in the AL, and next to last in BA. The Detroit bullpen has been about as effective as the White Sox bullpen, if you look at the numbers. All the White Sox offense would have needed to be is mediocre in 09 and we might not be watching meaningless games the last week of Sept.

When is anyone ever going to put the blame on the guys who acquired the players, or better yet, the players themselves?

Should Walker be held to ANY standard of performance, in your eyes??

soxinem1
09-28-2009, 10:03 PM
As did the Red Sox when Jackson was let go after the 06 season. It happens, teams make changes in personnel when the results aren't there.

By big hits, I assume you mean HR's. When the Sox didn't hit HR's in 05', the offense struggled, as it does now. Fortunately, the pitching staff cured a lot of ills in 05.

If you look at the overall numbers this year, the Sox are 3rd in ERA in the AL, and next to last in BA. The Detroit bullpen has been about as effective as the White Sox bullpen, if you look at the numbers. All the White Sox offense would have needed to be is mediocre in 09 and we might not be watching meaningless games the last week of Sept.

Should Walker be held to ANY standard of performance, in your eyes??

I didn't say Jackson was a great coach, but the BOS lineup had a LOT more thump even on paper than the 2005, 2007-2009 White Sox.

The 2005 White Sox were the best clutch-hitting team of this group. They hit a lot of HR's, but the hitters executed when the opportunities were there. They also fielded well.

Team ERA's are mis-leading. For 2009 there are just a handful of players primarily responsible for the team ERA: Buehrle, Danks, Thornton, Dotel, Carrasco, and pre-August Jenks. Post ASB Floyd was a factor, but the rest are arsonists.

And yes, Walker should be held accountable.... by his manager and the team. If the team feels he is doing his job, and the players are not doing theirs, then obviously some changes are in store.

Nellie_Fox
09-29-2009, 12:17 AM
...it isn't even possible the Sox offense could do any worse with a new hitting coach.Of course it is. It's equally possible that it could do better, but to say it couldn't do worse is ignoring many offenses that are/have been worse.

spawn
09-29-2009, 06:29 AM
If you look at the overall numbers this year, the Sox are 3rd in ERA in the AL, and next to last in BA. The Detroit bullpen has been about as effective as the White Sox bullpen, if you look at the numbers. All the White Sox offense would have needed to be is mediocre in 09 and we might not be watching meaningless games the last week of Sept.



Team ERA's are mis-leading. For 2009 there are just a handful of players primarily responsible for the team ERA: Buehrle, Danks, Thornton, Dotel, Carrasco, and pre-August Jenks. Post ASB Floyd was a factor, but the rest are arsonists.

ERA's are definitely misleading. The Sox may be 3rd in ERA, but the lead the league in the amount of unearned runs they've given up. They may not have been as proficient offensively as they should've been, but for the most parts, defense is what ultimately doomed this team IMO.

voodoochile
09-29-2009, 09:07 AM
ERA's are definitely misleading. The Sox may be 3rd in ERA, but the lead the league in the amount of unearned runs they've given up. They may not have been as proficient offensively as they should've been, but for the most parts, defense is what ultimately doomed this team IMO.

Just to be picky a quick scan of team pitching stats shows at least KC has given up more UE runs. In addition at 720 the Sox are above average in total runs allowed this season

spawn
09-29-2009, 09:39 AM
Just to be picky a quick scan of team pitching stats shows at least KC has given up more UE runs. In addition at 720 the Sox are above average in total runs allowed this season
Damn you. How dare you prove me wrong. :tongue:

voodoochile
09-29-2009, 10:12 AM
Damn you. How dare you prove me wrong. :tongue:

I know you were joking and at one time that was a true fact and the Sox led the majors in errors, but in the last month this team has taken a big step forward defensively. In August the Sox were averaging an error a game almost now they are down to ~ .7. I can't find monthly team defense team splits, but the change is dramatic and I'd be willing to bet the Sox are at least league average defensively (by statistical measurement which is obviously a flawed method of analysis) since Rios joined the team.

The turnaround by TCM and Beckham's continued growth makes me very optimistic for the left side of the infields defensive future.

spawn
09-29-2009, 10:23 AM
I know you were joking and at one time that was a true fact and the Sox led the majors in errors, but in the last month this team has taken a big step forward defensively. In August the Sox were averaging an error a game almost now they are down to ~ .7. I can't find monthly team defense team splits, but the change is dramatic and I'd be willing to bet the Sox are at least league average defensively (by statistical measurement which is obviously a flawed method of analysis) since Rios joined the team.

The turnaround by TCM and Beckham's continued growth makes me very optimistic for the left side of the infields defensive future.
I don't think this team will be nearly as bad defensively next year. Beckham has grown into a pretty solid defender at 3rd. He's getting to and fielding balls he wsn't able to get to when he first came up. I think Alexei will be better now that he has a full season at ss under his belt. I also agree that Rios has been a big improvement in CF. I'm not saying BA was bad out there defensively, but with Rios Ozzie hasn't been tempted to platoon him with Wise. And despite a lot of the naysayers on thie board, I like the tandem of Nix and Getz at second. Now, if we can only be sure that Pods gets limited play in the outfield (if he's back next season), and I'm really liking the defensive makeup of this team for 2010.

captain54
09-29-2009, 12:15 PM
Of course it is. It's equally possible that it could do better, but to say it couldn't do worse is ignoring many offenses that are/have been worse.

There aren't many offenses in the AL that are doing worse than the Sox. In fact, only one, and that's almost a dead heat. The Sox are next to last in BA, .002 points ahead of last place Seattle, and they are actually tied with Seattle for the least amount of hits in the AL.

captain54
09-29-2009, 12:30 PM
Team ERA's are mis-leading. For 2009 there are just a handful of players primarily responsible for the team ERA: Buehrle, Danks, Thornton, Dotel, Carrasco, and pre-August Jenks. Post ASB Floyd was a factor, but the rest are arsonists.


The Sox overall team ERA is up near the top of the AL. The Sox bullpen ERA is about the middle of the pack, despite how bad its been. Surprisingly, the Sox bullpen ERA is a bit above some contenders like Detroit and Angels, given up one less ER than the top bullpen, Oakland, and has as many blown saves as Boston, and only 3 more blown saves than the Yankees.

hawkjt
09-29-2009, 12:46 PM
I don't think this team will be nearly as bad defensively next year. Beckham has grown into a pretty solid defender at 3rd. He's getting to and fielding balls he wsn't able to get to when he first came up. I think Alexei will be better now that he has a full season at ss under his belt. I also agree that Rios has been a big improvement in CF. I'm not saying BA was bad out there defensively, but with Rios Ozzie hasn't been tempted to platoon him with Wise. And despite a lot of the naysayers on thie board, I like the tandem of Nix and Getz at second. Now, if we can only be sure that Pods gets limited play in the outfield (if he's back next season), and I'm really liking the defensive makeup of this team for 2010.


Pods has 2 errors in 127 games....Rios and Dye each have 5 errors.
As long as Pods is in left field, he will not cripple the Sox defensively. With Rios in center, Pods will be helped out. The infield is far more important to shore up and as has been pointed out...they made great strides late in the year. Sign Abreu, and rotate Abreu,Kotsay,Pods, and Carlos between left field,right field, and DH....we need hitting, and Pods leads the team in BA and OBA and SB...and ABreu just hits and steals bases and drives in runs like a machine.

spawn
09-29-2009, 12:54 PM
Pods has 2 errors in 127 games....Rios and Dye each have 5 errors.

Is there a stat for how many balls he should've caught that he either took a bad route on or made a bad read? For me, that counts as much or more than actual errors committed.

Sargeant79
09-29-2009, 01:01 PM
Pods has 2 errors in 127 games....Rios and Dye each have 5 errors.
As long as Pods is in left field, he will not cripple the Sox defensively. With Rios in center, Pods will be helped out.


Having fewer errors doesn't mean that you're a good defensive outfielder. I realize that you didn't say that, but by pointing out the numbers it seems that's what you're getting at.

Podsednik's problem is bad reads and a noodle arm. He is fast enough to compensate for some of his poor instincts, but not all of it. While I do agree with your bolded statement above, I would be concerned with having Podsednik counted on as a starting outfielder for the whole year. Probably due to his injury history more than his defense.

EDIT: Spawn - You beat me to it by a few minutes. That's just about exactly what I was trying to say.