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View Full Version : *Official* 9-21 Boos Well Deserved Postgame Thread


thomas35forever
09-21-2009, 10:55 PM
Only Hudson gave a **** about the game.

soxinem1
09-21-2009, 10:57 PM
More like B-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-S

One for each shutout.

The 2009 White Sox are The Runless Wonders.

palehozenychicty
09-21-2009, 10:58 PM
The kid gave a solid effort, but our Sox just aren't good enough this year. We need to rebuild that outfield and bullpen.

SOXfnNlansing
09-21-2009, 10:58 PM
glad I ate my pair of tickets and stayed at work!

Danielgosox38
09-21-2009, 10:59 PM
This team makes me sick. I refuse to watch this circus act for the rest of the season. It's not any fun watching this team crap their pants night after night.

A. Cavatica
09-21-2009, 10:59 PM
Greg Walker, pack your bags.

May you be the first of many to be shown the door.

GlassSox
09-21-2009, 11:00 PM
Another sad performance by a lot of well paid professionals, staff & players alike. :angry:

Patrick134
09-21-2009, 11:01 PM
The kid gave a solid effort, but our Sox just aren't good enough this year. We need to rebuild that outfield and bullpen.

If you believe a healthy Quentin will be anything like '08, he's there. Rios is solid (minus his slump here so far). The 3rd spot is wide open.

Frankfan4life
09-21-2009, 11:02 PM
Forget the Twinkiedome. Tonight was a House of Horrors. Obviously, it's not WHERE or WHO you play but HOW you play.

I thought the Sox would at least get a meaningless solo homer today. Oh well, maybe tomorrow.

GlassSox
09-21-2009, 11:03 PM
Greg Walker, pack your bags.

May you be the first of many to be shown the door.

Amen.

1989
09-21-2009, 11:09 PM
If you believe a healthy Quentin will be anything like '08, he's there. Rios is solid (minus his slump here so far). The 3rd spot is wide open.

Rios is the exact opposite of solid. He's got the starting spot next year locked up, but he has to step up his game. Immensely. That 3rd spot could be anybody from Pods and Figgins to Abreu and Kotsay. Idealistically it would be Holliday, but he's a Boras client so that's all but out of the question. We could even get Crawford but that is a large stretch.

Also do we sign a DH or a 2B? Most of us will want a Getz/Nix platoon which would be good enough for average in the Majors. Otherwise we could look in the direction of Orlando Hudson or Michael Young.

As for a DH who do we get? Pods? someone that has some pop?

kittle42
09-21-2009, 11:09 PM
glad I ate my pair of tickets and stayed at work!

Me, too! I didn't go Friday and I may not go Wednesday, either. Screw 'em.

BoysMom3
09-21-2009, 11:11 PM
I didn't watch it because my husband's watching the Dolphins game. Glad I missed it. Ouch.

veeter
09-21-2009, 11:11 PM
How strange is it, following a horrible season, starting pitching is the least of the Sox concerns. Kenny you have a lot of work to do, my friend.

Patrick134
09-21-2009, 11:12 PM
Rios is the exact opposite of solid. He's got the starting spot next year locked up, but he has to step up his game. Immensely. That 3rd spot could be anybody from Pods and Figgins to Abreu and Kotsay. Idealistically it would be Holliday, but he's a Boras client so that's all but out of the question. We could even get Crawford but that is a large stretch.

Also do we sign a DH or a 2B? Most of us will want a Getz/Nix platoon which would be good enough for average in the Majors. Otherwise we could look in the direction of Orlando Hudson or Michael Young.

As for a DH who do we get? Pods? someone that has some pop?


Rios will be fine. Interesting you say Pods as DH. It'd be pretty ballsy to not go the power hitter route for DH, but it'd be refreshing for a change.

Jerko
09-21-2009, 11:13 PM
goin friday only because of a work thing and bringin a date. hope she doesnt hate me for the stellar baseball i will be subjecting her to. as for the rest of the games, who cares anymore. :angry:

Scuzzy19
09-21-2009, 11:18 PM
my girl and I have seats in the left field side of the foul line row 5 seats 3-4 right by the tarp lets hope it goes well im hoping for the best tomorrow and hope we dont have a repeat of today :(:

Pear-Zin-Ski
09-21-2009, 11:21 PM
This team plays even worse than I think they are. ****ing mindblowing.

3.84 runs/game in September with a 9-11 record. That avg. is inflated with a 12 run game against Boston and 13 runs in Peavy's debut vs. the Royals. Say the Sox only score 5 runs in both of those games (still enough runs to win both games mind you....) and you'd have 3.02 runs/game!

Asking your pitching staff to hold opponents to under 4 runs each game is flat out nuts. Do I think we have the guys to do so, I sure do, but that's a lot to ask.

GlassSox
09-21-2009, 11:21 PM
my girl and I have seats in the left field side of the foul line row 5 seats 3-4 right by the tarp lets hope it goes well im hoping for the best tomorrow and hope we dont have a repeat of today :(:

:welcome:

michned
09-21-2009, 11:22 PM
Greg Walker, pack your bags.

May you be the first of many to be shown the door.

That would mean there would be some accountability among manager and coaches. That would be a first.

WhiteSox1989
09-21-2009, 11:24 PM
That sucked.

Brian26
09-21-2009, 11:24 PM
my girl and I have seats in the left field side of the foul line row 5 seats 3-4 right by the tarp lets hope it goes well im hoping for the best tomorrow and hope we dont have a repeat of today :(:

I'm hoping for some punctuation.

doublem23
09-21-2009, 11:26 PM
Even at 1/2 price, tonight's game was a rip-off.

The Immigrant
09-21-2009, 11:28 PM
A lot of people on that roster and coaching staff are flat-out stealing Jerry Reinsdorf's money.

Lip Man 1
09-21-2009, 11:29 PM
In five out of the last six games the Sox have scored three runs or less and they've now had 63 games, an astonishing 42% of their season schedule, where they've scored three runs or less.

:o:

Lip

Hitmen77
09-21-2009, 11:29 PM
Repeat after me: Greg Walker has no role in this offensive fiasco. He has zero accountability for this. It's all on the hitters, Ozzie, KW, but Walk is blameless. If we fire him, we should fire Coop. Pods and PK are hitting well, which is proof that Walker is doing a good job. These are not the droids you are looking for......

.....oh, and we just give Flowers some freaking at bats already instead of just running Dye out there day after day!!!!!!!

Pear-Zin-Ski
09-21-2009, 11:30 PM
In five out of the last six games the Sox have scored three runs or less and they've now had 63 games, an astonishing 42% of their season schedule, where they've scored three runs or less.

:o:

Lip

What are the w/l totals in those games? This was the point I was trying to refer to with my earlier post.

GoSox2K3
09-21-2009, 11:32 PM
Fortunately, I missed tonight's crapfest.

How did Hudson do tonight? That's probably the only thing I care about at this point.

russ99
09-21-2009, 11:32 PM
A lot of people on that roster and coaching staff are flat-out stealing Jerry Reinsdorf's money.

Heck yeah. The Sox organization would do well to look at the other dugout. They lose their best player for the season, and do they mope around and go through the motions collecting a paycheck? No.

I said in the beginning of August this team had no fire, hustle or effort, and they haven't shown any since, other than a few gutty performances by the starting staff and Scotty Pods playing out of his mind, which is because he had a long preview of life after baseball.

Not sure what we do to get that back at this point. It may not be enough to make a token coaching position change and not bring Dye back...

slavko
09-21-2009, 11:32 PM
Farmer and DJ pointedly talking up all the work Walker does to get them to hit where the ball is pitched only to have them swing for the Dan Ryan once the game starts. The handwriting's on the wall for Walker.

Aside, they're a real nice pairing and like each other. DJ is better than at any time in the past. He even has developed a terse style similar to Farmer when he does play-by-play.

spongyfungy
09-21-2009, 11:33 PM
On the red line now going home from this travesty. the highlight of the night for me was listening to a guy on the train talking about how security handcuffed him to a pole for being too drunk.
This team seems to be allergic to scoring runs.

Woofer
09-21-2009, 11:34 PM
It's sad to see JD going down the drain like he has. The last 4 plus years he had were great. He is less than worthless right now, and I'm not happy about it. I have never seen a team so confused with the bats. They are just depressing to watch.

These guys are going to roll over and make it real interesting for Twins and Tigers fans. We have 2 remaining with Minn, and 6 with Detroit. I can't see how we will win many with the team in this funk.

Pear-Zin-Ski
09-21-2009, 11:35 PM
Farmer and DJ pointedly talking up all the work Walker does to get them to hit where the ball is pitched only to have them swing for the Dan Ryan once the game starts. The handwriting's on the wall for Walker.

Aside, they're a real nice pairing and like each other. DJ is better than at any time in the past. He even has developed a terse style similar to Farmer when he does play-by-play.

Aside from MB's perfect game, Peavy comming to the southside and watching Beckham play this year, our radio team's preformance might be my favorite part about 2009. :(:

Brian26
09-21-2009, 11:36 PM
In five out of the last six games the Sox have scored three runs or less and they've now had 63 games, an astonishing 42% of their season schedule, where they've scored three runs or less.

:o:

Lip

Do you blame the hitting coach for this or the players?

The White Sox led the league in HRs in 2004 and 2006, and they were 4th in 2005 when they won the World Series, all under the watch of Greg Walker.

#1swisher
09-21-2009, 11:37 PM
Farmer and DJ pointedly talking up all the work Walker does to get them to hit where the ball is pitched only to have them swing for the Dan Ryan once the game starts. The handwriting's on the wall for Walker.

Aside, they're a real nice pairing and like each other. DJ is better than at any time in the past. He even has developed a terse style similar to Farmer when he does play-by-play.

I like them together, as well. When DJ does the pbp he sounds nervous, I think with time he'll find his stride, maybe it's the coffee:tongue:

Tragg
09-21-2009, 11:39 PM
This notion that Podsednik can replace Jim Thome at DH is just daft.
Yes his .355 obp was helpful this year, but that's about all it was. His D isn't good and we need some D. He's just not that valuable and if he can't replicate his .355 obp, he's a big liability.

doublem23
09-21-2009, 11:44 PM
This notion that Podsednik can replace Jim Thome at DH is just daft.
Yes his .355 obp was helpful this year, but that's about all it was. His D isn't good and we need some D. He's just not that valuable and if he can't replicate his .355 obp, he's a big liability.

DH doesn't play defense, compadre.

Lip Man 1
09-21-2009, 11:46 PM
Brian:

I think it's a small combination of both with the majority of the "blame" (for want of a better word) going to the G.M.

The White Sox worked to improve team speed over the off season, they worked to try to improve on executing the fundamentals (without a lot of success mind you), they finally listened to Ozzie Guillen who for the previous three off seasons was quoted numerous times talking about ‘balance,’ ‘strike outs’ and ‘solo home runs.’

But the bottom line is, this is still a franchise that relies on slow power hitters to drive the offense. When they are hitting home runs, everything’s great…when they aren’t; the Sox have trouble scoring runs.

As I’ve stated in the past, this really isn’t the fault of the players themselves. Guys like Paul Konerko, the departed Jim Thome and Jermaine Dye just to name three, have made a great career for themselves by being who they are. The issue is the fact that Kenny Williams has assembled so many of the same type of hitters on the team and the issue has gotten more pronounced since the Thome acquisition before 2006. Namely free swingers, guys who don’t have a lot of plate discipline, guys who can’t score from second on a single, guys who generally hit home runs or strikeout.

Add to the issue is that fact that those players are getting older, slower (if that’s possible) and their production is falling off.

What the White Sox need if they intend to continue this organizational policy, is players like they had in the early part of the decade, guys like Frank Thomas, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Lee, Jose Valentin and a younger Konerko… guys who would hit a ton of home runs but also for the most part, hit for a high average. Sure they’d strike out a lot but there’s a big difference between hitting .290 with 35 home runs and .250 with 25 home runs. The current group of sluggers falls into the second category.

Honestly this is one area I don’t think Kenny can solve, even if he had unlimited resources. Those types of players don’t hit the market often and the Sox need a number of them. Most expect at least one more of the previously mentioned middle of the order sluggers to be gone this off season. The question is… who replaces them?

The second issue with the offense is the leadoff spot. Scott Podsednik came back from the dead to save the Sox in many respects this year. Can he do it again? At his age and with his injury history? Is Kenny willing to gamble that he can? And even if he does and Podsednik has another good season in 2010, he’s not the long term answer to the issue.

The Sox need someone who is more reliable at the top of the order and can stabilize that situation for the next three to five years. Like with sluggers who hit home runs AND hit for a high average they aren’t falling off trees but this year there could be some available.

Chone Figgins will be a free agent. He can lead off, play multiple positions, and supply speed. He is exactly what the Sox need to start generating a more consistent offense in 2010. Brian Roberts may be on the market, ditto for Carl Crawford. Kenny Williams has to think and think hard about getting back to basics like he had in 2005 when the White Sox could beat you with a bunt, a bloop or a blast. If he doesn’t change the dynamics, the offense could be much more inconsistent next season as the remaining sluggers get another year older.

Just my take on things, it all boils down to what Kenny is allowed to do and the stakes are very high given that they've had two bad seasons out of the last three. Sox fans aren't the most patient bunch around (nor should they be...) and like I said earlier even if he's allowed to "go for it," I don't know what he can do to get the quality and quantity of hitters that he needs.

Lip

GoGoCrede
09-21-2009, 11:49 PM
LOL. What a stinker of a game to be at, especially with a Twins fan. I left early again. I hope things go better on Wednesday.

Span getting hit scared the crap out of me. Thank god he's okay.

Edit - Aw, well. It was 5 bucks.

It's Time
09-21-2009, 11:59 PM
Kenny hasn't said much at all lately. When is he going to go off?

voodoochile
09-22-2009, 12:01 AM
You know if I still cared, that would have really pissed me off...

Lip Man 1
09-22-2009, 12:02 AM
I don't think Kenny is going to "go off"... it's pointless right now. I think you'll see his feelings when guys are traded, waived, released this off season.

Personally I think there will be a significant number of guys that Kenny will at least try to move off the 40 man roster through various means, I put the number at 15 or so, that doesn't mean he'll be able to unload all of them but I get a strong sense from some folks that I've communicated with that he'll try.

Lip

Noneck
09-22-2009, 12:04 AM
Lip,

I like your analysis but until I see players out there that I think they can get, it will be sos. I don't think the Sox are willing to do what it takes to get Figgins and I don't see the Sox taking on another big money long term contract (40m/4yrs) for Roberts. Crawford is a possibility but I think if they do get Crawford, they will never be able to afford him after next year when he becomes a FA.

TheBigHurtST
09-22-2009, 12:05 AM
Repeat after me: Greg Walker has no role in this offensive fiasco. He has zero accountability for this. It's all on the hitters, Ozzie, KW, but Walk is blameless. If we fire him, we should fire Coop. Pods and PK are hitting well, which is proof that Walker is doing a good job. These are not the droids you are looking for......

.....oh, and we just give Flowers some freaking at bats already instead of just running Dye out there day after day!!!!!!!

:cheers:

TheBigHurtST
09-22-2009, 12:08 AM
Do you blame the hitting coach for this or the players?

The White Sox led the league in HRs in 2004 and 2006, and they were 4th in 2005 when they won the World Series, all under the watch of Greg Walker.

Yeah, HOME RUNS. How about base hits, extra base hits and AVG with RISP? DO you realize that that statistic alone says next to nothing?

Your post was one of the worst (funny, actually) attempts at defending Walker that I've ever seen, and I've seen some really bad ones.

chisoxfanatic
09-22-2009, 12:21 AM
What is the number 11?



The number of games left in this White Sox season.
The number of days until BLACKHAWKS SEASON BEGINS!!!!! :bandance:

The "Let's Go Hawks!" and "Let's Go Bears!" chants were priceless.

Pear-Zin-Ski
09-22-2009, 12:21 AM
Chone Figgins will be a free agent. He can lead off, play multiple positions, and supply speed. He is exactly what the Sox need to start generating a more consistent offense in 2010. Brian Roberts may be on the market, ditto for Carl Crawford. Kenny Williams has to think and think hard about getting back to basics like he had in 2005 when the White Sox could beat you with a bunt, a bloop or a blast. If he doesn’t change the dynamics, the offense could be much more inconsistent next season as the remaining sluggers get another year older.

Lip

I know much has changed between opening day 2009 and now, but I think we have the guys in place (add one/subtract one) to do exactly what you want us to do. Pods, Beckham, Getz, AJ, Alexei and Rios are hitters, not just homerun hitters. TCQ should get a pass this season. They all have a decent knack on the basepaths as well, not perfect, but enough to get the job done. If Paulie stays in 2009 form in 2010 fine by me! Not a fast guy by any means, but he isn't killing the team. JD on the other hand....

This lineup SHOULD be producing, but they simply are not.

captain54
09-22-2009, 12:28 AM
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]Brian:

I think it's a small combination of both with the majority of the "blame" (for want of a better word) going to the G.M.


All of the issues with hitting that you've mentioned have been a part of the
Sox's offensive problems going back to 2005. This is nothing new. The 2005 team, at times, went into huge offensive funks, it's just that the bullpen and the starting pitching always came in to save the day.

Kenny Williams has been well aware, I believe, of how this team is constructed offensively. Where things collapsed this year for him were 1) the bullpen 2) the defense

Noneck
09-22-2009, 12:35 AM
Where things collapsed this year for him were 1) the bullpen 2) the defense

When a team scores 3 runs or less in a total of 63 games so far this year, Its more than defense and bullpen.

DumpJerry
09-22-2009, 12:43 AM
Well, I was on the television during the 4th inning tonight!

Woo hooo.

captain54
09-22-2009, 12:46 AM
When a team scores 3 runs or less in a total of 63 games so far this year, Its more than defense and bullpen.

the White Sox are 7 games out of first....take 7 games that the bullpen and defense gave away this year and we are going in the last couple of weeks tied for first.

Tragg
09-22-2009, 12:56 AM
Isn't it time to start playing Flowers and whoever else is up from Charlotte or Birmingham?

Noneck
09-22-2009, 01:03 AM
the White Sox are 7 games out of first....take 7 games that the bullpen and defense gave away this year and we are going in the last couple of weeks tied for first.

You are correct, I admit when wrong. I just looked up the Tigers , they have 63 games this year scoring 3 runs or less this year. Well, thats an argument that doesn't cut it anymore.

Domeshot17
09-22-2009, 01:20 AM
The worst part is this team has no fight in it. Just a few days ago we had an outside shot, we could control our own destiny, take care of Minnesota and have a very meaningful set vs Detroit.

Tonight I saw a Minnesota team that wanted to win, that expected to win, and a bunch of guy from Chicago who played the same heartless, gutless baseball that have been for a while.

Last year this team played its butt off at seasons end to get to the playoffs. This year, feels alot more like The Southside Quit Men.

JB98
09-22-2009, 01:31 AM
Isn't it time to start playing Flowers and whoever else is up from Charlotte or Birmingham?

Yes, it is time to let Flowers DH for the rest of the season, and take Castro's starts as the backup catcher. There aren't any other "kids" for them to be playing though. At least among hitters. Among pitchers, Hudson and Nunez have gotten a few opportunities. They should get more before the year is out.

This offense sucks. What a disgrace. No extra-base hits at all tonight. They have no punch whatsoever right now.

Domeshot17
09-22-2009, 01:40 AM
I know much has changed between opening day 2009 and now, but I think we have the guys in place (add one/subtract one) to do exactly what you want us to do. Pods, Beckham, Getz, AJ, Alexei and Rios are hitters, not just homerun hitters. TCQ should get a pass this season. They all have a decent knack on the basepaths as well, not perfect, but enough to get the job done. If Paulie stays in 2009 form in 2010 fine by me! Not a fast guy by any means, but he isn't killing the team. JD on the other hand....

This lineup SHOULD be producing, but they simply are not.

The lineup there is nothing like 2005. You have to understand that team KNEW HOW TO SCORE RUNS. Chris Getz has been such a let down to me because I saw him as a guy who could do what Iguchi did. Move runners with his bat, make smart outs, set up the guys behind him to drive in runs. Pods has been a nightmare on the bases this year. I think it goes to show what instincts versus speed do for you. Half the mistakes he is making are because he has lost a step. Beckham has been very nice but hes currently hitting .266. I hope we see him produce more power next year, because 270 20 80 with an 800 ops is nothing more than average for a decent 3b.
Rios is a key next year, if he comes back not caring about anything and hitting 240 with 15 homers we are doomed.

Honestly, look at the lineup, is there 1 position you feel better about than 2005? Short stop maybe, but Alexei has really had a pretty poor year. You can't let Scott Podsednik out slug you.

Everyone is freaking in love with speed, oooo we need speed ooooo we need to steal bases oooooo fast guys. You want to know why we suck, there isnt one player on this team right now that can hit 100 rbis in a year. Konerko is the only player on this roster that has a chance to hit 30 homers. No one on the roster is going to be on base over a .370 clip and no one will touch 35 doubles. We are top 6 in the AL in stolen bases, we actually don't strike out more than half the AL. People are getting what they want, a FAST TEAM. The Problem is, speed may get you to 3rd, it doesn't get you home.

For this team to really compete next year, we need 2 guys who are hitting 270 or below to hit .300. Possible in guys like Beckham sure. We need 3 guys to hit 30 homers AND drive in 95 runs. Maybe, but only if Konerko drinks from the fountain of youth all winter. Yah, I like Quentin, but if you had to bet money, real money, that he could come back, hit 290 with 35 homers and 100 rbis, would you take the over or under? Then we need 2-3 guys actually be patient and get on at a 370 clip or better.

The real truth is a lot of our worst fears have come true. The 2005 guys, the 2006 guys got really old, and the poor scouting and development in the farm has failed to replace ANY OF THEM. Beckham has been breath of fresh air, but Fields, Anderson etc. failing was massive.

Without some big changes, this offense will always be one of those that could be massive on paper, and just never is.

A. Cavatica
09-22-2009, 01:55 AM
I actually saw a quote from Ozzie a couple of weeks ago where he complained that home runs were down in the second half.

Aren't these Ozzie's guys now? Guys that are supposed to manufacture runs without the benefit of homers?

captain54
09-22-2009, 01:57 AM
For this team to really compete next year, we need 2 guys who are hitting 270 or below to hit .300.

I don't see Detroit, Minnesota, Cleveland or KC getting any dramatically better next year, so if the Sox can shore up the defense and bullpen, and get rid of at least half of the dead weight in the middle of the order, 2010 could be an entirely different story than 2009

SoxFan1979
09-22-2009, 02:00 AM
Greg Walker, pack your bags.

May you be the first of many to be shown the door.

I 2nd that. This team is PATHETIC!!!!!

Ranger
09-22-2009, 02:45 AM
Farmer and DJ pointedly talking up all the work Walker does to get them to hit where the ball is pitched only to have them swing for the Dan Ryan once the game starts. The handwriting's on the wall for Walker.


And it would be the same story with a different hitting coach.

I'll call this now (with upcoming offseason moves pending, of course) that next year's offense will be different. Yes, even with Greg Walker here, since I don't believe he's remotely close to being the problem. I just think he's an easy target for fans because it makes the frustrating offense easier to deal with if you can focus all of your anger at one guy. Easier to understand than several guys in the lineup all slumping at once. Sometimes it is as complicated as several people not doing their jobs.

Now, why do I think this will be better? A few reasons, actually: 1) The makeup of the lineup will be different from the onset of the season. Speed at the top, speed at the bottom, and the heart of the order will be more versatile. The 3-4-5-6 hitters in the order will not all be essentially the same guy (slow-footed power-hitters). When one of those guys slumps, there seems to be a tendnecy for it to wear on the others...partly because I think they begin to struggle, too, with the pressure of feeling like they need to hit more than their share of longballs to make up for it. Though a group featuring Dye-Konerko-Thome is formidable, there can come a time where it has run its course. With an aging Dye and Thome, it was time for things to change. However, as I assume both of those guys will not be here in 2010, this will make Konerko's value in the lineup increase. You may not want EVERYONE in the lineup to be like him, but it's good to have at least one guy like that.

2) The rookies will hopefully be a year better. Beckham hitting in the .280 range will certainly be satisfactory, though I believe he can do better. Getz can be a pest at the plate. Ramirez will never be a great OBP guy, but he will hit.

3) Sometimes something as simple as a fresh start makes a huge difference. Some new blood has been infused, and some of the old has been flushed. While there will be some power in that lineup, there may not be the overwhelming tendency for some of those guys to sit back and wait for the middle of the order to carry them.

This will greatly be dependent on Quentin having a better year than this year (not necessarily an all-star year) and Rios going back to what he's done previously (again, doesn't need to be an all-star, just better).

Greg Walker (or any hitting coach, for that matter) can preach good ABs, hitting the opposite direction, and not trying to do too much all he wants, but the hitter's instinct will likely take over in the box.

This will be a different lineup next year, regardless of the hitting instructor. It may not be prolific and I don't expect it to be in the top 5, but it will be more active. And if the pitching holds, the Sox will only need a mediocre offense to win.

soxfan22
09-22-2009, 05:23 AM
7 - 0???? That's haawwrible!!!!!! :angry:

Roll on 2010!

captainclutch24
09-22-2009, 05:27 AM
Greg Walker, Jermaine Dye, Alex Rios, Scott Linebrink, Bobby Jenks, and several others

Q8Tiz6INF7I

Mohoney
09-22-2009, 06:46 AM
Rios will be fine. Interesting you say Pods as DH. It'd be pretty ballsy to not go the power hitter route for DH, but it'd be refreshing for a change.

Maybe DH Pods, put Alexei in the OF, and get an upgrade defensively at SS?

Craig Grebeck
09-22-2009, 07:05 AM
The thought of putting Pods at DH will forever make my head spin.

Sure, the rule may be in place so a team can utilize good hitters who will hit the **** out of the ball but can't play defense (like Jim Thome), but let's just put an inconsistent and pretty average ballplayer there. Why won't it work?!

So any organizational apologist want to explain the logic in playing guys like Mark Kotsay and Scott Podsednik instead of Tyler Flowers?

Marqhead
09-22-2009, 09:37 AM
So any organizational apologist want to explain the logic in playing guys like Mark Kotsay and Scott Podsednik instead of Tyler Flowers?

They're more grindy than him?

Hitmen77
09-22-2009, 09:50 AM
Brian:

I think it's a small combination of both with the majority of the "blame" (for want of a better word) going to the G.M.

The White Sox worked to improve team speed over the off season, they worked to try to improve on executing the fundamentals (without a lot of success mind you), they finally listened to Ozzie Guillen who for the previous three off seasons was quoted numerous times talking about ‘balance,’ ‘strike outs’ and ‘solo home runs.’

But the bottom line is, this is still a franchise that relies on slow power hitters to drive the offense. When they are hitting home runs, everything’s great…when they aren’t; the Sox have trouble scoring runs.

As I’ve stated in the past, this really isn’t the fault of the players themselves. Guys like Paul Konerko, the departed Jim Thome and Jermaine Dye just to name three, have made a great career for themselves by being who they are. The issue is the fact that Kenny Williams has assembled so many of the same type of hitters on the team and the issue has gotten more pronounced since the Thome acquisition before 2006. Namely free swingers, guys who don’t have a lot of plate discipline, guys who can’t score from second on a single, guys who generally hit home runs or strikeout.

Add to the issue is that fact that those players are getting older, slower (if that’s possible) and their production is falling off.

What the White Sox need if they intend to continue this organizational policy, is players like they had in the early part of the decade, guys like Frank Thomas, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Lee, Jose Valentin and a younger Konerko… guys who would hit a ton of home runs but also for the most part, hit for a high average. Sure they’d strike out a lot but there’s a big difference between hitting .290 with 35 home runs and .250 with 25 home runs. The current group of sluggers falls into the second category.

Honestly this is one area I don’t think Kenny can solve, even if he had unlimited resources. Those types of players don’t hit the market often and the Sox need a number of them. Most expect at least one more of the previously mentioned middle of the order sluggers to be gone this off season. The question is… who replaces them?

The second issue with the offense is the leadoff spot. Scott Podsednik came back from the dead to save the Sox in many respects this year. Can he do it again? At his age and with his injury history? Is Kenny willing to gamble that he can? And even if he does and Podsednik has another good season in 2010, he’s not the long term answer to the issue.

The Sox need someone who is more reliable at the top of the order and can stabilize that situation for the next three to five years. Like with sluggers who hit home runs AND hit for a high average they aren’t falling off trees but this year there could be some available.

Chone Figgins will be a free agent. He can lead off, play multiple positions, and supply speed. He is exactly what the Sox need to start generating a more consistent offense in 2010. Brian Roberts may be on the market, ditto for Carl Crawford. Kenny Williams has to think and think hard about getting back to basics like he had in 2005 when the White Sox could beat you with a bunt, a bloop or a blast. If he doesn’t change the dynamics, the offense could be much more inconsistent next season as the remaining sluggers get another year older.

Just my take on things, it all boils down to what Kenny is allowed to do and the stakes are very high given that they've had two bad seasons out of the last three. Sox fans aren't the most patient bunch around (nor should they be...) and like I said earlier even if he's allowed to "go for it," I don't know what he can do to get the quality and quantity of hitters that he needs.

Lip

Lip,
One of the biggest problems is the Sox inability for years to develop much talent from their own farm system. Teams with good minor league talent can bring up young, cheap, fast players over time to replace aging or fading regulars. For years, the top talent in the Sox system has been the liikes of Brian Anderson, Josh Fields, Lance Broadway, etc. Unless you're the Yankees, you can't just sign (free agents) or trade your way to a competitive lineup.

Maybe things are changing. We have Beckham (though it helping having the #8 overall pick for him). Getz may not be a favorite among some here, but he's at least shown more than people like Anderson and Fields. Hudson might eventually turn out to be a great homegrown addition too.

Lip Man 1
09-22-2009, 12:23 PM
Hit:

That's very true which is why Kenny for most of this decade has been shipping off the overrated White Sox "can't miss kids" for real, actual, quality major league players. I assume he can keep doing this if he needs to, don't you?

It's not all just sign free agents, he can trade, he can get rule 5 players, he can sign international talent, there are always options.

Kenny will work a combination of all of the above this off season (or he damn well better...)

Buddy Bell appears to be improving a dead system but it's still going to take two years. The best talent is in the low minors, till then Kenny has to get talent by any and all means available.

Lip

captain54
09-22-2009, 12:36 PM
Sometimes it is as complicated as several people not doing their jobs.



One of them possibly being......Greg Walker?

It's amazing to me how you steadfastly refuse to even remotely put any of the onus on the hitting coach. It seems to me he is a non factor. It's not his fault, yet, whatever he is doing to help is not working. Quentin, Dye, (the whole middle of the order) Rios..these guys have been struggling for months..Wouldn't a coach be able to turn it around for at least ONE of these hitters?

I believe Walker has been able to coast going all the way back to 04. The excuse has always been that the Sox are free swingers. It'll be interesting to see how he fares now that the free swinging approach is being forced to be abandoned.

Ranger
09-22-2009, 12:37 PM
So any organizational apologist want to explain the logic in playing guys like Mark Kotsay and Scott Podsednik instead of Tyler Flowers?

Why wouldn't Kotsay and Podsednik play?

salty99
09-22-2009, 12:47 PM
Why wouldn't Kotsay and Podsednik play?

Yeah is Flowers going to trot out and play the outfield or first base suddenly?

Ranger
09-22-2009, 12:48 PM
The lineup there is nothing like 2005. You have to understand that team KNEW HOW TO SCORE RUNS. Chris Getz has been such a let down to me because I saw him as a guy who could do what Iguchi did. Move runners with his bat, make smart outs, set up the guys behind him to drive in runs. Pods has been a nightmare on the bases this year. I think it goes to show what instincts versus speed do for you. Half the mistakes he is making are because he has lost a step. Beckham has been very nice but hes currently hitting .266. I hope we see him produce more power next year, because 270 20 80 with an 800 ops is nothing more than average for a decent 3b.
Rios is a key next year, if he comes back not caring about anything and hitting 240 with 15 homers we are doomed.

Honestly, look at the lineup, is there 1 position you feel better about than 2005? Short stop maybe, but Alexei has really had a pretty poor year. You can't let Scott Podsednik out slug you.


Ramirez really has not had a poor year. It took him a while to start hitting and he had some defensive problems for a while, but those have subsided. We have differing definitions of "poor." Jermaine Dye has had a "poor" second half.

Getz isn't hitting in the same spot of the order that Iguchi did, their roles are different. Getz has primarily hit 7th or 8th in the lineup and much of the time is leading off the inning. Who makes smart outs leading off an inning? I'm not sure what it is that Getz has been doing is a "letdown" to you. Especially since he's a rookie. Hitting .280 with RISP or with runners on base and over .300 with RISP and 2 outs. I think you have unrealistic expectations of a first year player.

dickallen15
09-22-2009, 12:59 PM
And it would be the same story with a different hitting coach.

I'll call this now (with upcoming offseason moves pending, of course) that next year's offense will be different. Yes, even with Greg Walker here, since I don't believe he's remotely close to being the problem. I just think he's an easy target for fans because it makes the frustrating offense easier to deal with if you can focus all of your anger at one guy. Easier to understand than several guys in the lineup all slumping at once. Sometimes it is as complicated as several people not doing their jobs.

Now, why do I think this will be better? A few reasons, actually: 1) The makeup of the lineup will be different from the onset of the season. Speed at the top, speed at the bottom, and the heart of the order will be more versatile. The 3-4-5-6 hitters in the order will not all be essentially the same guy (slow-footed power-hitters). When one of those guys slumps, there seems to be a tendnecy for it to wear on the others...partly because I think they begin to struggle, too, with the pressure of feeling like they need to hit more than their share of longballs to make up for it. Though a group featuring Dye-Konerko-Thome is formidable, there can come a time where it has run its course. With an aging Dye and Thome, it was time for things to change. However, as I assume both of those guys will not be here in 2010, this will make Konerko's value in the lineup increase. You may not want EVERYONE in the lineup to be like him, but it's good to have at least one guy like that.

2) The rookies will hopefully be a year better. Beckham hitting in the .280 range will certainly be satisfactory, though I believe he can do better. Getz can be a pest at the plate. Ramirez will never be a great OBP guy, but he will hit.

3) Sometimes something as simple as a fresh start makes a huge difference. Some new blood has been infused, and some of the old has been flushed. While there will be some power in that lineup, there may not be the overwhelming tendency for some of those guys to sit back and wait for the middle of the order to carry them.

This will greatly be dependent on Quentin having a better year than this year (not necessarily an all-star year) and Rios going back to what he's done previously (again, doesn't need to be an all-star, just better).

Greg Walker (or any hitting coach, for that matter) can preach good ABs, hitting the opposite direction, and not trying to do too much all he wants, but the hitter's instinct will likely take over in the box.

This will be a different lineup next year, regardless of the hitting instructor. It may not be prolific and I don't expect it to be in the top 5, but it will be more active. And if the pitching holds, the Sox will only need a mediocre offense to win.

KW is still going to have to make some changes. There is no guarantee Rios will be worth what they are paying him. There is no guarantee Quentin will revert to his 2008 form. Beckham and Getz I think will be better. Konerko, AJP will be a year older. I don't think its likely if Pods is back he can duplicate this season and it wasn't enough this year. Replacing Dye's second half won't be hard, but replacing his first half will be. The bullpen needs a makeover or guys will have to snap back big-time in 2005.

GoSox2K3
09-22-2009, 01:15 PM
What is the number 11?



The number of games left in this White Sox season.
The number of days until BLACKHAWKS SEASON BEGINS!!!!! :bandance:

The "Let's Go Hawks!" and "Let's Go Bears!" chants were priceless.

:whocares:

I like the Bears well enough, but after the Sox season ends I'm counting down to the start of spring training.

Pear-Zin-Ski
09-22-2009, 01:33 PM
KW is still going to have to make some changes. There is no guarantee Rios will be worth what they are paying him. There is no guarantee Quentin will revert to his 2008 form. Beckham and Getz I think will be better. Konerko, AJP will be a year older. I don't think its likely if Pods is back he can duplicate this season and it wasn't enough this year. Replacing Dye's second half won't be hard, but replacing his first half will be. The bullpen needs a makeover or guys will have to snap back big-time in 2005.

2010, right?

While reading through some of the recent posts in the thread, I noticed the mention of 2005. Just curious, but do we expect to have our next World Series team follow the same blueprint the 2005 squad did? If Ozzie is still around when we win our next World Series I'd figure there would be some similarites, but is the 2005 blueprint the only way we can win another World Series?

Reason why I ask is because it is no way fair to the club on the field come 2010 or 2011 or even 2035 to compare them to the 2005 World Series Champs. Comparing Crede to Beckham, Iguchi to Getz or even 2005 Bobby Jenks to 2010 Bobby Jenks for the case of "what we need to win a World Series" is silly. What we need is a timely hit, a stolen base or a crucial save. I don't care who does it.

JB98
09-22-2009, 01:33 PM
One of them possibly being......Greg Walker?

It's amazing to me how you steadfastly refuse to even remotely put any of the onus on the hitting coach. It seems to me he is a non factor. It's not his fault, yet, whatever he is doing to help is not working. Quentin, Dye, (the whole middle of the order) Rios..these guys have been struggling for months..Wouldn't a coach be able to turn it around for at least ONE of these hitters?

I believe Walker has been able to coast going all the way back to 04. The excuse has always been that the Sox are free swingers. It'll be interesting to see how he fares now that the free swinging approach is being forced to be abandoned.

Yes, there are numerous people not doing their jobs, and Greg Walker is one of them.

Does anyone think Alex Rios can get out of this funk by himself? If he could turn it around without the help of a coach, he would have by now, right? Rios NEEDS HELP. Does anyone here really believe Greg Walker is the guy who is going to put Rios back together both physically and mentally?

I just don't see how people can absolve the hitting coach of blame when you have four or five hitters who have been in deep funks for weeks.

Scott Podsednik and Mark Kotsay are the two best hitters on this team right now, for crying out loud.

Tragg
09-22-2009, 01:46 PM
To bring Podsednik back as a DH is to BEG for a return of 2007's offense. There just isn't a spot for him. Kotsay for the bench only and get a young athletic RF.
Walker is ancillary - I would look to the core of the braintrust if making a change - Cora. Get a serious professional in here.

Ranger
09-22-2009, 02:03 PM
Yes, there are numerous people not doing their jobs, and Greg Walker is one of them.

Does anyone think Alex Rios can get out of this funk by himself? If he could turn it around without the help of a coach, he would have by now, right? Rios NEEDS HELP. Does anyone here really believe Greg Walker is the guy who is going to put Rios back together both physically and mentally?

I just don't see how people can absolve the hitting coach of blame when you have four or five hitters who have been in deep funks for weeks.

Scott Podsednik and Mark Kotsay are the two best hitters on this team right now, for crying out loud.


So then Walker is doing his job with Podsednik and Kotsay? And Konerko? And AJ? And he was doing his job with Beckham, but decided recently to stop helping him? By the way, they know what's wrong with Rios and why he's chopping everything to the left side of the infield. They're working with him to fix it. But it's up to Rios to actually fix it.

It seems obvious that no matter what people learn or hear about the actual duties of a major league hitting coach, their opinions will never change. If the hitting coach had as great of an affect on hitters' performance as people thought he did, then no hitter would ever go into a slump ever. They would all be hitting .300 all the time.

When a hitter slumps, it's because of something he's doing. When a hitter comes out of a slump, it's because of something he's doing. When players start going badly, they all (and this goes for other teams' players too) know what they're doing wrong, whether by self-discovery or by being enlightened by the coach. Even armed with the knowledge of how to fix it, it is often difficult to get going the way they want to.

Blaming Walker for the hitting, would be like blaming Allen Thomas when somebody pulls a muscle. They all stretch before the game, and some guys get some extra stretching done (because of injury risk, age, etc.). Some guys are just going to get hurt. It's not always avoidable.

voodoochile
09-22-2009, 02:43 PM
To bring Podsednik back as a DH is to BEG for a return of 2007's offense. There just isn't a spot for him. Kotsay for the bench only and get a young athletic RF.
Walker is ancillary - I would look to the core of the braintrust if making a change - Cora. Get a serious professional in here.

It's only a return of this year's problem if they don't find a guy who can hit like first-half JD all year long.

I'd like to see the Sox make one major acquisition and that is a LH bat who can play corner OF and has a plus bat. That leaves a 4 headed rotation in the OF to keep everyone fresh and Kotsay to be 5th OF and BU 1B. Then sign a bullpen arm, bring back Freddie and bring on Spring Training.

Given a choice between bullpen arm and stud OF bat I take the bat and take my chances that Nunez and Torres can fill out the bullpen with Carrasco moving to a later inning role to replace Dotel. Heck they might be able to move Torres for a reliever anyway.

FielderJones
09-22-2009, 02:43 PM
It seems obvious that no matter what people learn or hear about the actual duties of a major league hitting coach, their opinions will never change. If the hitting coach had as great of an affect on hitters' performance as people thought he did, then no hitter would ever go into a slump ever. They would all be hitting .300 all the time.

There you go, bringing logic to this argument. It's not going to work because the haters aren't operating on that level. The team went into a significant slump this year, therefore someone has to pay. What's important is making Greg Walker pay, because it serves an immediate emotional need.

I guarantee, if the slumping members of this team progress to their career averages in 2010 under Greg Walker, no credit will be forthcoming. He will always be a bum, just as Bobby Jenks will always be fat if he blows even one save opportunity.

:rolleyes:

Nellie_Fox
09-22-2009, 02:56 PM
Does anyone here really believe Greg Walker is the guy who is going to put Rios back together both physically and mentally? Just as importantly, how can so many of you be sure he's NOT the guy?

Why does he get no credit for Podsednik? He was on the scrap heap, and he says Walker gave him some things to help him relax. The "walk up on the ball" thing he was doing for a while was Walker's idea. Apparently he no longer needs it, and was able to incorporate what he learned from it into his regular swing, but he said it was Walker. But Walker is only responsible for the things that are going wrong.

Ranger
09-22-2009, 03:19 PM
The team went into a significant slump this year, therefore someone has to pay. What's important is making Greg Walker pay, because it serves an immediate emotional need.
:rolleyes:

Exactly. It's sociology. Collectively, people have to have retribution for crimes, mistakes, etc. It makes them feel better, even though no good will come out of it in the long run.

Just as importantly, how can so many of you be sure he's NOT the guy?

Why does he get no credit for Podsednik? He was on the scrap heap, and he says Walker gave him some things to help him relax. The "walk up on the ball" thing he was doing for a while was Walker's idea. Apparently he no longer needs it, and was able to incorporate what he learned from it into his regular swing, but he said it was Walker. But Walker is only responsible for the things that are going wrong.

Furthermore, who's to say this isn't the absolute best some of these guys can be. Dye had his best year here, so did Pods. Konerko's had terrific years. Obviously Quentin. I don't particularly think Dye or Konerko were good because of Walker, but it's possible that the Sox have, at times, gotten the most that anyone could get out of certain players.

Maybe this is the best they can be at this time.

SI1020
09-22-2009, 03:55 PM
This is unbelievable. It's like you're a war criminal or something for suggesting Greg Walker may be lacking. The hitting approach and results are lousy and he's the hitting coach. Yet it's not worthy of any kind of debate. I don't get it. Another thing is the gross overuse of the word "hater". Some of us took a long time to get where we're at with regards to Walker. Watching the White Sox try to hit this year has been stupefying. Especially when you contrast the futile approach our guys take with teams like the Angels who work the pitcher and knock the ball all over the field. We're a results oriented society. I've been called to task and one time even got fired. Life is tough that way sometimes. To say the Sox need a new hitting coach is to state the blatantly obvious.

FielderJones
09-22-2009, 04:05 PM
This is unbelievable. It's like you're a war criminal or something for suggesting Greg Walker may be lacking.

Not a war criminal. Just emotionally in need of retribution because this year didn't work out. And quick to dismiss any good that Walker may have done in previous years, or for the the guys who are actually hitting the ball this year.

kittle42
09-22-2009, 04:11 PM
Let me ask this of the crowd who says none of us really understands a hitting coach's role: if Team X finishes dead last in every offensive category having to do with hitting, should any blame fall on the hitting coach assuming the team isn't some thrown together pile of junk like an expansion team or the Nationals?

Hitmen77
09-22-2009, 04:15 PM
And it would be the same story with a different hitting coach.

I'll call this now (with upcoming offseason moves pending, of course) that next year's offense will be different. Yes, even with Greg Walker here, since I don't believe he's remotely close to being the problem. I just think he's an easy target for fans because it makes the frustrating offense easier to deal with if you can focus all of your anger at one guy. Easier to understand than several guys in the lineup all slumping at once. Sometimes it is as complicated as several people not doing their jobs.

Now, why do I think this will be better? A few reasons, actually: 1) The makeup of the lineup will be different from the onset of the season. Speed at the top, speed at the bottom, and the heart of the order will be more versatile. The 3-4-5-6 hitters in the order will not all be essentially the same guy (slow-footed power-hitters). When one of those guys slumps, there seems to be a tendnecy for it to wear on the others...partly because I think they begin to struggle, too, with the pressure of feeling like they need to hit more than their share of longballs to make up for it. Though a group featuring Dye-Konerko-Thome is formidable, there can come a time where it has run its course. With an aging Dye and Thome, it was time for things to change. However, as I assume both of those guys will not be here in 2010, this will make Konerko's value in the lineup increase. You may not want EVERYONE in the lineup to be like him, but it's good to have at least one guy like that.

2) The rookies will hopefully be a year better. Beckham hitting in the .280 range will certainly be satisfactory, though I believe he can do better. Getz can be a pest at the plate. Ramirez will never be a great OBP guy, but he will hit.

3) Sometimes something as simple as a fresh start makes a huge difference. Some new blood has been infused, and some of the old has been flushed. While there will be some power in that lineup, there may not be the overwhelming tendency for some of those guys to sit back and wait for the middle of the order to carry them.



Ranger,
What is your sense on how much additional payroll the Sox can add next year after you consider our existing contracts for 2010 and the raises that arbitration eligible players will get?

You suggest that the offense and the makeup of the line up will be different. But, if we already have a lot of payroll $$ committed for 2010, I'm not sure how much different it will be. Can you envision 8 of the 9 existing starters (all except Dye) returning? As far as Dye goes, of course replacing his near non-existent 2nd half production will be easy, but what we need is someone to replace the "pre-decline" Dye's production.....which will be very tough to do.

SI1020
09-22-2009, 04:17 PM
Not a war criminal. Just emotionally in need of retribution because this year didn't work out. And quick to dismiss any good that Walker may have done in previous years, or for the the guys who are actually hitting the ball this year. Quit with the psychobabble. Mine is just an opinion as is yours on what should be at the very least a debatable subject. I have no desire to tar and feather the man and willingly give him credit for his many accomplishments in his playing and coaching career. It's just way past time for a change.

Ranger
09-22-2009, 04:21 PM
This is unbelievable. It's like you're a war criminal or something for suggesting Greg Walker may be lacking. The hitting approach and results are lousy and he's the hitting coach. Yet it's not worthy of any kind of debate. I don't get it. Another thing is the gross overuse of the word "hater". Some of us took a long time to get where we're at with regards to Walker. Watching the White Sox try to hit this year has been stupefying. Especially when you contrast the futile approach our guys take with teams like the Angels who work the pitcher and knock the ball all over the field. We're a results oriented society. I've been called to task and one time even got fired. Life is tough that way sometimes. To say the Sox need a new hitting coach is to state the blatantly obvious.

Did you deserve to be fired? What did you do to get fired? Is it possible that you should not have been fired? Is it possible that things happened out of your control, you were fired for it, but really should not have been because you were doing your job as best as it could be done? Nobody should accept being wrongfully fired because, "well, that's the way it is sometimes." Not that you can do much about it, since it isn't your decision, but wouldn't you agree that it should NOT happen? Would you agree that people should NOT be fired if the results are mostly out of their control?

It doesn't matter if the results of the Sox offense has been the same for 5 years or 30 years, the point some of us are making is that the results are largely out of his control (or out of the control of any hitting coach, for that matter). All he can do is prepare them (which he does) and hope they go out there and do the job they're prepared to do. The "results" or due to the makeup of the lineup, not the guy who works with them in the cage. The Angels do what they do because of the personnel in the lineup. They do what they're capable of doing.

There really isn't the possibility of debate unless everyone involved knows all the details of the issue at question. Unfortunately, much of the "debate" dies when the majority of people on one side of the argument a) don't know what a hitting coach is really supposed to do, and b) don't really know what Greg Walker says to his hitters and know what his hitting philosophy actually is. Most people still really think he tells them to swing for the fences every at bat.

FielderJones
09-22-2009, 04:24 PM
Let me ask this of the crowd who says none of us really understands a hitting coach's role: if Team X finishes dead last in every offensive category having to do with hitting, should any blame fall on the hitting coach assuming the team isn't some thrown together pile of junk like an expansion team or the Nationals?

Not enough information. Unfortunately, the White Sox do not open the park early enough for the standard fan to see home team batting practice. The standard fan is unable to walk down to the lower bowl behind home plate to see and listen to what the batting coach is working on with each player.

We don't have objective evidence that Walker tells all players to close their eyes and swing as hard as they can in case they hit the ball. The only objective evidence we have is in-game situational hitting. We have no way to know which players are not playing the way they practice.

It feels good to want Walker to pay for your disappointment at the 2009 season. But we have no way of knowing if Walker paying is justified, or if he's just a scapegoat for player failings.

Ranger
09-22-2009, 04:31 PM
Ranger,
What is your sense on how much additional payroll the Sox can add next year after you consider our existing contracts for 2010 and the raises that arbitration eligible players will get?

You suggest that the offense and the makeup of the line up will be different. But, if we already have a lot of payroll $$ committed for 2010, I'm not sure how much different it will be. Can you envision 8 of the 9 existing starters (all except Dye) returning? As far as Dye goes, of course replacing his near non-existent 2nd half production will be easy, but what we need is someone to replace the "pre-decline" Dye's production.....which will be very tough to do.

Good question about the payroll because I don't know what they're going to project to be available. That's up to them and I'm curious to see what they're thinking.

What I mean about the "makeup" being different is that by the absence of an aging Dye and Thome from the start of the season, the lineup will be structured differently. There may not be the tendency to wait and hope for the longball from the middle of the order...and if the middle of the order fails at any point during the season, I think the may be able to withstand that.

Granted, a lot of this will depend on Quentin and Rios having improved years from this season, and I think they will. I could be wrong, but I don't expect them to struggle as badly next year as they have this season. The team won't hit as many HRs (which could hurt them) but they may be able to get it done in other ways and I'm expecting better ABs with RISP.

Again, I could be wrong, but this is my feeling. At least, right now.

FielderJones
09-22-2009, 04:58 PM
Quit with the psychobabble. Mine is just an opinion as is yours on what should be at the very least a debatable subject. I have no desire to tar and feather the man and willingly give him credit for his many accomplishments in his playing and coaching career. It's just way past time for a change.

At least you admit that you want Walker fired not for his efforts or work or lack thereof, but for the failures of the players, in the batters box, at a time when Walker has no control. Sounds justified, not an emotional reaction to a disappointing season at all. And, I note you're not calling for the Sox to DFA all the disappointing players themselves, since all their failures are Walker's fault.

wassagstdu
09-22-2009, 06:19 PM
To bring Podsednik back as a DH is to BEG for a return of 2007's offense. There just isn't a spot for him.

Good idea, get rid of your most productive offensive player, then one of the less productive will automatically become the most productive.

kittle42
09-22-2009, 06:54 PM
Good idea, get rid of your most productive offensive player, then one of the less productive will automatically become the most productive.

Konerko is actually well ahead of him in Runs Created/27 outs, which would be the best metric for offensive production. But Pods is second on the team, so point still taken.

JB98
09-22-2009, 07:14 PM
So then Walker is doing his job with Podsednik and Kotsay? And Konerko? And AJ? And he was doing his job with Beckham, but decided recently to stop helping him? By the way, they know what's wrong with Rios and why he's chopping everything to the left side of the infield. They're working with him to fix it. But it's up to Rios to actually fix it.

It seems obvious that no matter what people learn or hear about the actual duties of a major league hitting coach, their opinions will never change. If the hitting coach had as great of an affect on hitters' performance as people thought he did, then no hitter would ever go into a slump ever. They would all be hitting .300 all the time.

When a hitter slumps, it's because of something he's doing. When a hitter comes out of a slump, it's because of something he's doing. When players start going badly, they all (and this goes for other teams' players too) know what they're doing wrong, whether by self-discovery or by being enlightened by the coach. Even armed with the knowledge of how to fix it, it is often difficult to get going the way they want to.

Blaming Walker for the hitting, would be like blaming Allen Thomas when somebody pulls a muscle. They all stretch before the game, and some guys get some extra stretching done (because of injury risk, age, etc.). Some guys are just going to get hurt. It's not always avoidable.

So, four guys on the roster are swinging the bats well, and that's good enough to give the hitting coach a pass. Great.

I realize that all hitters go into slumps. We have half our starting lineup slumping for weeks upon weeks. What we are seeing this year is embarrassing and ridiculous. It's boring baseball. It makes me not want to pay money to watch this bull****.

The failure to hit with RISP. The failure to hit no-name pitchers. The failure to hit on Sundays. The chronic failure to pick up the runner from third with less than two outs. The annual September fade. The April-and-May slumps that put pressure on our pitching staff every year. The failure to hit in domes. The failure to complete sweeps of bad teams by refusing to score runs. It's all bull****, and it's been going on for 3 1/2 years.

This whole team is full of guys who are so tight they couldn't fart a BB. This is the second time in this thread I've listed all the team's assorted offensive phobias. They are mentally shot. They need a new mindset, a new approach. I don't see how anyone can watch this team every day and not see major problems with this offense.

If Walker is not to blame, fine. Then let's trade everyone except Pods, Konerko, Kotsay and AJ. You think that's realistic? I don't.

Big D
09-22-2009, 07:16 PM
Good idea, get rid of your most productive offensive player, then one of the less productive will automatically become the most productive.

Nothing against Pods, but if he's your most productive offensive player, then you really have a ****ty offense.

Brian26
09-22-2009, 07:17 PM
Do you blame the hitting coach for this or the players?

The White Sox led the league in HRs in 2004 and 2006, and they were 4th in 2005 when they won the World Series, all under the watch of Greg Walker.

Yeah, HOME RUNS. How about base hits, extra base hits and AVG with RISP? DO you realize that that statistic alone says next to nothing?

Your post was one of the worst (funny, actually) attempts at defending Walker that I've ever seen, and I've seen some really bad ones.

Unfortunately I went to bed last night before I had a chance to finish the point I was trying to make.

Home runs generally equal runs scored. Runs scored translate to wins. The Sox lead the league in homers in '04 and '06, and they were third in runs scored those years. They were fourth in runs scored in 2005. With a better back end of the rotation in 2004 and better starting pitching in '06, the Sox could have easily gone to the ALCS three years in a row. I won't say World Series because Boston was a team of destiny in '04.

All things being equal, do you cast blame on the hitting coach (who had previous success as recently as three years ago) or the players? Do the teaching skills of a hitting coach deteriorate like a player's bat speed or batting eye?

This a separate discussion altogether, but the Sox won in 2005 because of the home run and not because of some kind of "small ball" or Ozzie-ball. That's huge revisionist history. When you have 20-HR guys batting 8th and 9th in the lineup, you're not a "small ball" team.

Ranger
09-22-2009, 08:00 PM
So, four guys on the roster are swinging the bats well, and that's good enough to give the hitting coach a pass. Great.

I realize that all hitters go into slumps. We have half our starting lineup slumping for weeks upon weeks. What we are seeing this year is embarrassing and ridiculous. It's boring baseball. It makes me not want to pay money to watch this bull****.

The failure to hit with RISP. The failure to hit no-name pitchers. The failure to hit on Sundays. The chronic failure to pick up the runner from third with less than two outs. The annual September fade. The April-and-May slumps that put pressure on our pitching staff every year. The failure to hit in domes. The failure to complete sweeps of bad teams by refusing to score runs. It's all bull****, and it's been going on for 3 1/2 years.

This whole team is full of guys who are so tight they couldn't fart a BB. This is the second time in this thread I've listed all the team's assorted offensive phobias. They are mentally shot. They need a new mindset, a new approach. I don't see how anyone can watch this team every day and not see major problems with this offense.

If Walker is not to blame, fine. Then let's trade everyone except Pods, Konerko, Kotsay and AJ. You think that's realistic? I don't.

Beckham and Getz have been performing quite well as rookies, haven't they?

Nobody is blaming you for not wanting to pay to watch them not hit. I agree with you, it stinks. But it's the players that are failing, not the hitting coach. It seems you may fall in line with the rest of those that want Walker gone...you're angry and want someone to pay for it.

Well that doesn't fix the problem. The solution is, unfortunately, as complicated as there needing to be turnover in the lineup.

The new mindset should come with a new season and a fresh start. The approach you take is only as good as your personnel. Can't hit like the Twins if you don't have Twins-like players.

Ranger
09-22-2009, 08:06 PM
Unfortunately I went to bed last night before I had a chance to finish the point I was trying to make.

Home runs generally equal runs scored. Runs scored translate to wins. The Sox lead the league in homers in '04 and '06, and they were third in runs scored those years. They were fourth in runs scored in 2005. With a better back end of the rotation in 2004 and better starting pitching in '06, the Sox could have easily gone to the ALCS three years in a row. I won't say World Series because Boston was a team of destiny in '04.

All things being equal, do you cast blame on the hitting coach (who had previous success as recently as three years ago) or the players? Do the teaching skills of a hitting coach deteriorate like a player's bat speed or batting eye?

This a separate discussion altogether, but the Sox won in 2005 because of the home run and not because of some kind of "small ball" or Ozzie-ball. That's huge revisionist history. When you have 20-HR guys batting 8th and 9th in the lineup, you're not a "small ball" team.

This is a pretty good point. The message is the same, and will be the same with a different hitting coach. However, some players will deteriorate because they're getting older and the coaching staff can do nothing about that.

And, yes, the '05 pounded the ball into the seats. They hit 200 HRs. They were also a pretty good clutch-hitting team. Many of those clutch hits were home runs.

Craig Grebeck
09-22-2009, 08:26 PM
Why wouldn't Kotsay and Podsednik play?
Uh, common sense. DH Flowers and let one of Kotsay or Podsednik ride the pine. Don't DH Konerko and let Kotsay play first base for ****'s sake.

What a waste of time that is.

Do you really need to know why I think Flowers should be getting ABs right now?

JB98
09-22-2009, 08:45 PM
Beckham and Getz have been performing quite well as rookies, haven't they?

Nobody is blaming you for not wanting to pay to watch them not hit. I agree with you, it stinks. But it's the players that are failing, not the hitting coach. It seems you may fall in line with the rest of those that want Walker gone...you're angry and want someone to pay for it.

Well that doesn't fix the problem. The solution is, unfortunately, as complicated as there needing to be turnover in the lineup.

The new mindset should come with a new season and a fresh start. The approach you take is only as good as your personnel. Can't hit like the Twins if you don't have Twins-like players.

Beckham has been terrible for the last four or five weeks. He was hitting around .310 or .315 at one point. He's lost nearly 50 points on his average. He's another who is in an extended slump.

I'm tired of this whole, "JB is angry and needs a head" argument. I didn't start all this yesterday. I've wanted a change at hitting coach for three years, because the same crap has been going on since the second half of 2006. Quite a bit of personnel has changed, but the disease remains.

A league-high 13 shutouts. 28 games where the Sox have scored one run or less. 63 games where the Sox have scored three runs or less. How bad does this have to get before we admit there is a problem?

You say I'm rigid in my point of view. Supposedly, my mind can't be changed no matter what. Well, maybe my mind would change if I wasn't looking at the same nonsense day after day for three seasons. There's a reason this argument never goes away: It never goes away because the offensive execution has stunk for a long time. What would it take to change your mind, Chris? Or anybody else here who is defending Walker, what would it take to change your mind? How brutal does this offense have to get?

We have a roster full of guys who can't knock in runs. Only Seattle and Kansas City are worse offensively. Two notorious pitchers parks, Seattle and Kansas City. The Sox play in hitters' paradise, yet their run production lags behind also-ran teams like Toronto, Oakland and Baltimore. The A's have freakin' Ryan Sweeney and the immortal Scott Hairston batting 3-4, and they've scored more runs than the Sox.

The conventional wisdom is the team we see now is pretty close to what we get next year. Dye will be gone, replaced by some other outfielder. Our starting pitching looks pretty damn good for next year, and it better be if we're going to trot out many of these same players with the same hitting coach and the same approach to the game.

Domeshot17
09-22-2009, 09:16 PM
Ranger, who is to blame then? If not Walker, do you blame Ozzie for not being able to inspire better play or for forcing the veterans to work with Walker? Do you blame Kenny for putting together a pretty horse crap roster in terms of performance?

I know everyone here has a different opinion, and a lot of people don't mind failure here, but to me, this team has failed miserably and its time to hold people accountable. In MOST lines of work, management goes down with the ship. Here we seem ready to give everyone a free pass?

Next question, when does 2005 stop getting people a free pass?

Ranger
09-22-2009, 10:25 PM
Uh, common sense. DH Flowers and let one of Kotsay or Podsednik ride the pine. Don't DH Konerko and let Kotsay play first base for ****'s sake.

What a waste of time that is.

Do you really need to know why I think Flowers should be getting ABs right now?

Uh, did it occur to you maybe Kotsay and Podsednik are both on the bubble for next year, too? And maybe even more of a decision has to be made on them then on Flowers. Flowers is here...he's theirs already and is so for the next several years. They still need to figure out whether to bring back Pods, Kotsay, or both.

Plus, if anything, it does Flowers a whole lot better to get some work in at catcher, doesn't it? Seeing as how if he's on the team next year, he would be the backup catcher. And it's his defense that's in question, not his bat.

Therefore, you should be complaining that AJ is playing, not Podsednik or Kotsay. For ****'s sake.

(Oh, one more thing: at Konerko's age (and for as much as he plays) any time he gets a day off from the field, it's a good thing.

Ranger, who is to blame then? If not Walker, do you blame Ozzie for not being able to inspire better play or for forcing the veterans to work with Walker? Do you blame Kenny for putting together a pretty horse crap roster in terms of performance?

I know everyone here has a different opinion, and a lot of people don't mind failure here, but to me, this team has failed miserably and its time to hold people accountable. In MOST lines of work, management goes down with the ship. Here we seem ready to give everyone a free pass?

Next question, when does 2005 stop getting people a free pass?

Yes, there are people involved that are almost completely responsible. They're called "players". Unfortunately, since it's tough to dump an entire team, we're just gonna have to wait until roster turnover can happen.

I just wish people understood that the problem is rarely as simple as one guy that can be removed. Usually, the problem is multiple players on one team. They make 90% of the money for a reason.

Domeshot17
09-22-2009, 10:30 PM
Uh, did it occur to you maybe Kotsay and Podsednik are both on the bubble for next year, too? And maybe even more of a decision has to be made on them then on Flowers. Flowers is here...he's theirs already and is so for the next several years. They still need to figure out whether to bring back Pods, Kotsay, or both.

Plus, if anything, it does Flowers a whole lot better to get some work in at catcher, doesn't it? Seeing as how if he's on the team next year, he would be the backup catcher. And it's his defense that's in question, not his bat.

Therefore, you should be complaining that AJ is playing, not Podsednik or Kotsay. For ****'s sake.

(Oh, one more thing: at Konerko's age (and for as much as he plays) any time he gets a day off from the field, it's a good thing.



Yes, there are people involved that are almost completely responsible. They're called "players". Unfortunately, since it's tough to dump an entire team, we're just gonna have to wait until roster turnover can happen.

I just wish people understood that the problem is rarely as simple as one guy that can be removed. Usually, the problem is multiple players on one team. They make 90% of the money for a reason.

I don't disagree on holding players responsible, but I just don't see a direction. There is no one in the minors capable of making an impact next year unless a guy like Flowers busts out really early. We don't have a ton of money to spend by all accounts. We need to most likely add 2 hitters who will hit between 3-6. This is not a good thing for a team who is generally a 2nd class player in free agency. Theres no roster balance right now. Ozzie has the team he wanted, he has a fast team, and its terrible. Speed means nothing without guys in the middle of the order who can produce. There is not 1 guy on this roster I feel confident will be a 100 rbi guy next year, that doesn't scream playoffs.

Baseball really isn't that different then real life. You have a manager or a career developer who watches over his team of reps or field agents etc. If they produce he looks great, if they don't he looks terrible. 2 things can happen, He can prepare them to the best of his ability and they can still fail, or the agents can be unprepared and fail.

Like I said in other posts, I wouldn't FIRE ozzie this offseason, but if we start slow with a different roster next year, I would let him go then.

TheBigHurtST
09-22-2009, 11:33 PM
And it would be the same story with a different hitting coach.


I just stopped reading RIGHT THERE. The only defense you can take for Walker is assumption (in your case) and excuses. There is simply NO REASON not to try a different hitting coach at this point. NONE. BOTTOM LINE.

SOMEONE HAS TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE. The hitting coach is the one responsible for helping the hitters with their mechanics. Walker seems to ruin a lot of these hitters. And whether that's fact or opinion, this offense overall has been dead as long as he's been here. Again, there is NO REASON not to try someone else at this point. Assuming nothing will change with a new coach is simply a ridiculous cop-out and frankly a lazy response.

captain54
09-22-2009, 11:34 PM
But it's the players that are failing, not the hitting coach.

This doesn't make any sense. If the players are failing, isn't it the hitting coaches job to help them to "not fail"?

that's like walking into the doctors office, still not feeling well after the prescription he gave you, and him saying..."sorry, I can't help you, you're just plain sick...there's nothing more I can do"

TheBigHurtST
09-22-2009, 11:38 PM
So then Walker is doing his job with Podsednik and Kotsay? And Konerko? And AJ? And he was doing his job with Beckham, but decided recently to stop helping him? By the way, they know what's wrong with Rios and why he's chopping everything to the left side of the infield. They're working with him to fix it. But it's up to Rios to actually fix it.


Jesus, these Walker defenses are so stupid.

So I guess the ENTIRE lineup would have to bat .000 for an entire season (would a few weeks be enough for you? Probably not) before Walker is at all at fault in the minds of some of you? So if at ANY TIME a few guys are hitting well it should be ignored that the lineup as a unit has been dead for years now? Since a few guys are hitting well (nevermind that some of our younger hitters with good approaches have also become free wingers lately!) that means that Walker can't possibly be doing any wrong? The numbers say otherwise, it's as simple as that. This offense has been DEAD for years. If you think this offense and Walker is doing a good job overall, you don't watch many games because our overall hitting approach and especially stats with RISP are nothing less than atrocious.


Seriously, wake the hell up, people.

WhiteSox5187
09-22-2009, 11:40 PM
I just stopped reading RIGHT THERE. The only defense you can take for Walker is assumption (in your case) and excuses. There is simply NO REASON not to try a different hitting coach at this point. NONE. BOTTOM LINE.

SOMEONE HAS TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE. The hitting coach is the one responsible for helping the hitters with their mechanics. Walker seems to ruin a lot of these hitters. And whether that's fact or opinion, this offense overall has been dead as long as he's been here. Again, there is NO REASON not to try someone else at this point. Assuming nothing will change with a new coach is simply a ridiculous cop-out and frankly a lazy response.

I just made that point on the post game show!

Now that I'm done tooting my own horn, I have to say that I think firing Walker would be done largely cuz you can't fire the players. I am not so sure another hitting coach would help an awful lot with this bunch, but at this point I'm starting to wonder how can it hurt? It's the old thing of "OK, how does this help me?" the answer there is "probably not much," so then how does it hurt? Well, probably not much. Ranger brought up the point of guys losing respect for the organization...ehh, maybe, but I think at some point someone has to be held accountable and I think there are four potential people to hold accountable, the first would the players because of their performance but you can't fire them, the second would be the GM for assembling the group of guys, but he is unlikely to go and I don't think that he should go, the third is the manager as he is supposed to be the head of responsiblity for on the field performance, and the fourth is the hitting coach who really is nothing more than a scape goat. I don't know what good it would do exactly, but I can't think of any harm either. At some point something has to change with this situation and really the hitting coach is probably the easiest thing to change.

sox1970
09-22-2009, 11:47 PM
Hitting coaches are hired to be fired. At some point, you have to make a change for the sake of change. A new voice. But with Ozzie and the Sox organization, they are very loyal...probably to a fault.

Ranger
09-23-2009, 01:44 AM
I just stopped reading RIGHT THERE. The only defense you can take for Walker is assumption (in your case) and excuses. There is simply NO REASON not to try a different hitting coach at this point. NONE. BOTTOM LINE.

SOMEONE HAS TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE. The hitting coach is the one responsible for helping the hitters with their mechanics. Walker seems to ruin a lot of these hitters. And whether that's fact or opinion, this offense overall has been dead as long as he's been here. Again, there is NO REASON not to try someone else at this point. Assuming nothing will change with a new coach is simply a ridiculous cop-out and frankly a lazy response.

No, it's actually not lazy. I know what I'm talking about here and I have the support of players and other coaches within the game of baseball (NOt just with the Sox) that agree with me. Not a single person I've ever spoken to (on or off the record) who plays, coaches, or covers MLB on a regular basis believes it is Walker's fault. The only people that believe it is his fault are some of the fans. And frankly, many of the fans do not understand what the role of a hitting coach is supposed to be. It seems you fall into that category. You are one of the many that tries to simplify it to a level where there is really no simple solution.

On this matter, I will side with the opinions of those within the game before I side with you.

This doesn't make any sense. If the players are failing, isn't it the hitting coaches job to help them to "not fail"?

that's like walking into the doctors office, still not feeling well after the prescription he gave you, and him saying..."sorry, I can't help you, you're just plain sick...there's nothing more I can do"

Terrible analogy. The doctor knows things about the human body that normal people don't. But if we must use yours: Dr. Walker can prescribe all the medicine he wants, but if the patients don't finish the bottle, it won't do them any good.

I just made that point on the post game show!

Now that I'm done tooting my own horn, I have to say that I think firing Walker would be done largely cuz you can't fire the players. I am not so sure another hitting coach would help an awful lot with this bunch, but at this point I'm starting to wonder how can it hurt? It's the old thing of "OK, how does this help me?" the answer there is "probably not much," so then how does it hurt? Well, probably not much. Ranger brought up the point of guys losing respect for the organization...ehh, maybe, but I think at some point someone has to be held accountable...

Well, there really is no "eh, maybe" on this one. If players like a hitting coach, you run the risk of making the situation even worse. And yes, it can get worse considering you have a collection of of vets as well as young players trying to get established in this game.

I'm sorry, I don't believe people should lose their jobs (regardless of their career or wealth) because "somebody needs to take the fall." That doesn't do any good for anyone.

Eddie Murray was fired by the Indians in '05. Derek Shelton took over and was called a genius after Cleveland started to hit. Then just two years later, he's no good at his job because they can't hit anymore. So, you mean to tell me that within two years time, the players weren't "responding" to the savior, or that Shelton suddenly forgot how to coach? Come on.

It's one of the most ridiculous aspects of baseball, and the calling for a hitting coach's head is really just a bunch of bull****.

captain54
09-23-2009, 02:22 AM
Not a single person I've ever spoken to (on or off the record) who plays, coaches, or covers MLB on a regular basis believes it is Walker's fault.



Or they could believe he should be held accountable and are just not telling you the truth. Wouldn't be the first time players, coaches and those covering sports have not exactly told the whole story.

Mike Huff was filling in for Stone Poney the other night, singing the praises of Walker and I don't remember Hawk chiming in with anything that would suggest he was agreeing with Huff.

Your "Doctor Walker" scenario is stretched so far from what my analogy is, it's incomprehensible. I find it highly unlikely that a player would ignore useful advice from a hitting, pitching, fielding coach.

You keep hammering home the point that we are fans and have no right to an opinion in this matter because we don't know what a hitting coach does, we're not there before the games, in the clubhouse..blah, blah, blah

This isn't rocket science..We watch the games. Some of us, (like me) 162 games a year Either live, on TV, or on tape. We see the results. Going all the way back to '05, we see countless squandered offensive opportunities, men left on third with less than two outs, not being able to hit pitchers they've never seen before, not being able to move runners along, etc. It's a joke

JB98
09-23-2009, 02:28 AM
No, it's actually not lazy. I know what I'm talking about here and I have the support of players and other coaches within the game of baseball (NOt just with the Sox) that agree with me. Not a single person I've ever spoken to (on or off the record) who plays, coaches, or covers MLB on a regular basis believes it is Walker's fault. The only people that believe it is his fault are some of the fans. And frankly, many of the fans do not understand what the role of a hitting coach is supposed to be. It seems you fall into that category. You are one of the many that tries to simplify it to a level where there is really no simple solution.

On this matter, I will side with the opinions of those within the game before I side with you.



Terrible analogy. The doctor knows things about the human body that normal people don't. But if we must use yours: Dr. Walker can prescribe all the medicine he wants, but if the patients don't finish the bottle, it won't do them any good.



Well, there really is no "eh, maybe" on this one. If players like a hitting coach, you run the risk of making the situation even worse. And yes, it can get worse considering you have a collection of of vets as well as young players trying to get established in this game.

I'm sorry, I don't believe people should lose their jobs (regardless of their career or wealth) because "somebody needs to take the fall." That doesn't do any good for anyone.

Eddie Murray was fired by the Indians in '05. Derek Shelton took over and was called a genius after Cleveland started to hit. Then just two years later, he's no good at his job because they can't hit anymore. So, you mean to tell me that within two years time, the players weren't "responding" to the savior, or that Shelton suddenly forgot how to coach? Come on.

It's one of the most ridiculous aspects of baseball, and the calling for a hitting coach's head is really just a bunch of bull****.

It's not anymore bull**** than you insisting that the Sox would have the same results with any other hitting coach. First off, nobody knows that for a fact. It's impossible to say for certain that they'd be better, about the same or worse under somebody else. Secondly, such a statement suggests that hitting coaches are completely irrelevant to the results on the field.

If that's the case, the Sox might as well name me and Frater Perdurabo as co-hitting coaches. We'll play cards with Ozzie and Cora in the clubhouse. It doesn't matter what we tell the players or whether we're qualified for the position, because it's all on the players anyway, right?

I'm pretty damn sure that the Sox would be even more horse**** if me and Frater were the hitting coaches. I also think there's a pretty damn good chance the Sox would be a better hitting team if they had Mickey Hatcher as their hitting coach instead of Walker. But apparently that's just me. Of course, the Angels would never let Hatcher go, because unlike the Sox they get the most out of their hitters.

WhiteSox5187
09-23-2009, 02:40 AM
Well, there really is no "eh, maybe" on this one. If players like a hitting coach, you run the risk of making the situation even worse. And yes, it can get worse considering you have a collection of of vets as well as young players trying to get established in this game.

I'm sorry, I don't believe people should lose their jobs (regardless of their career or wealth) because "somebody needs to take the fall." That doesn't do any good for anyone.

Eddie Murray was fired by the Indians in '05. Derek Shelton took over and was called a genius after Cleveland started to hit. Then just two years later, he's no good at his job because they can't hit anymore. So, you mean to tell me that within two years time, the players weren't "responding" to the savior, or that Shelton suddenly forgot how to coach? Come on.

It's one of the most ridiculous aspects of baseball, and the calling for a hitting coach's head is really just a bunch of bull****.

I am not really vehemently opposed to Greg Walker as a person or even as a hitting coach, I just think here that the way I look at it is "Ok, is the hitting up to par? Are these guys playing up to a level that they are capable of?" and you know what? Sometimes the answer is yes and the offense still sucks. Our offense was going to suck in 2007 regardless of who was our hitting coach. It is quite possible that that is the case this year. But when I look at it I think "Boy, a team with a line up that has Paul Konerko, Jim Thome, Jermaine Dye, Carlos Quentin and AJ Pierzynski should really be producing more runs than we are producing now. Why aren't we?" And really there is a variety of answers for that, but I think if this were just a one year thing you'd say "Ah, it has to be a fluke," but really since the second half of 2006 there have been LONG stretches of time where it looks like we can't buy a hit and it seems like EVERYONE is swinging for the god damned fences when just a single would do. That is sort of indictive of a pattern. And it could very well be that those guys are what they are and that no hitting coach can change that. And if that's the case, well then, there probably needs to be a change in personel on the team level (and I suspect that we will see that).

As for the part about whether or not someone should just have to pay the piper so to speak, this is where you and I disagree. Everyone in this job wants to do well, there is not a coach, manager, GM or player who WANTS to lose, but at the end of the day sometimes the people there just can't get it done. There is no doubt in my mind that Greg Walker wants these guys to hit and wants them to go the other way and execute and all that, but you know, they're not doing it! And someone has to take accountablity for it. I think that there has to be an owning up of the results produced here, and it seems like that is not the case. At the end of the day it's about results, and I think every major league player and everyone at any major league level knows that. I'm sure that the Yankees (for a real bad example) have had lots of great and friendly guys as managers and hitting coaches and GMs, but if they don't win and meet Steinbrenner's expectations, they are shown the door and it's just part of the business and I think the players all understand that. I don't think anyone is going to hold a grudge against the White Sox if they fire Walker, I think they'll say "you know, that offense hasn't produced what it is capable of producing for awhile now and I guess Walker had to pay the price for the poor results."

Like I said, I think that there are one of two possibilities here, one is that Walker just isn't getting through to these guys come game time, or two is that these guys are what they are and that the greatest hitting coach ever couldn't get through to these guys. If it is option two, then we need to see some changes in the lineup and the guys we put on the field and I suspect we're probably going to see that this off season and then there is a good chance that Greg Walker looks like a genius in 2010, I would LOVE for that to be the case.

Having said that, I think the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, somewhere a change has to be made here, either with the coach or the makeup of the roster. But you can't keep building a team around the same core of guys, or guys like them (ie slow power hitters) and expect different results with Walker in charge. On some level there has to be a change, whether it's the coach or the guys playing every day, there HAS to be some sort of change.

Craig Grebeck
09-23-2009, 03:05 AM
Uh, did it occur to you maybe Kotsay and Podsednik are both on the bubble for next year, too? And maybe even more of a decision has to be made on them then on Flowers. Flowers is here...he's theirs already and is so for the next several years. They still need to figure out whether to bring back Pods, Kotsay, or both.

Plus, if anything, it does Flowers a whole lot better to get some work in at catcher, doesn't it? Seeing as how if he's on the team next year, he would be the backup catcher. And it's his defense that's in question, not his bat.

Therefore, you should be complaining that AJ is playing, not Podsednik or Kotsay. For ****'s sake.

(Oh, one more thing: at Konerko's age (and for as much as he plays) any time he gets a day off from the field, it's a good thing.
Rongey, if you really want to argue that it is somehow equitable to get Mark Kotsay two weeks worth of at-bats (as though that will somehow shed light on his worth) rather than give a young player the opportunity to face major league pitching, go right ahead. I don't care if Tyler is the designated hitter or catches for the rest of the season, I just want him getting at-bats.

Athrun
09-23-2009, 03:42 AM
In the last 10 games we've had 9 hits, 8 hits, 6 hits, 14 hits, 3 hits, 10 hits, 9 hits, 13 hits, 9 hits and 9 hits. The overall hitting doesn't seem to be the problem. It's getting those big clutch hits that we suck at and unfortunately there's not much a hitting coach can do. In the end it's up to the player to come through when needed.

Craig Grebeck
09-23-2009, 05:27 AM
It would be really funny if Walker isn't brought back and Rongey has to explain why/how that could possibly happen.

Ranger
09-23-2009, 11:35 AM
It would be really funny if Walker isn't brought back and Rongey has to explain why/how that could possibly happen.

If he isn't back next year, it will be for one of two reasons: 1) scapegoating, or 2) he decides he doesn't want to deal with it anymore.

There are your explanations. In advance.

Ranger
09-23-2009, 11:41 AM
Rongey, if you really want to argue that it is somehow equitable to get Mark Kotsay two weeks worth of at-bats (as though that will somehow shed light on his worth) rather than give a young player the opportunity to face major league pitching, go right ahead. I don't care if Tyler is the designated hitter or catches for the rest of the season, I just want him getting at-bats.

You should care if Flowers is catching or not, it's actually quite reckless otherwise. As I said earlier, his bat is not in question. His defense, however, is. While some ABs at this level certainly don't hurt him, it is equally important, if not moreso, for him to get behind the plate.

Not to mention the fact it wouldn't be a bad thing for AJ's legs to get some time off from catching whenever possible.

You should be calling for AJ to sit, not Kotsay. And I'm curious for an explanation as to why you haven't asked for that...

Ranger
09-23-2009, 11:42 AM
I am not really vehemently opposed to Greg Walker as a person or even as a hitting coach, I just think here that the way I look at it is "Ok, is the hitting up to par? Are these guys playing up to a level that they are capable of?" and you know what? Sometimes the answer is yes and the offense still sucks. Our offense was going to suck in 2007 regardless of who was our hitting coach. It is quite possible that that is the case this year. But when I look at it I think "Boy, a team with a line up that has Paul Konerko, Jim Thome, Jermaine Dye, Carlos Quentin and AJ Pierzynski should really be producing more runs than we are producing now. Why aren't we?" And really there is a variety of answers for that, but I think if this were just a one year thing you'd say "Ah, it has to be a fluke," but really since the second half of 2006 there have been LONG stretches of time where it looks like we can't buy a hit and it seems like EVERYONE is swinging for the god damned fences when just a single would do. That is sort of indictive of a pattern. And it could very well be that those guys are what they are and that no hitting coach can change that. And if that's the case, well then, there probably needs to be a change in personel on the team level (and I suspect that we will see that).

As for the part about whether or not someone should just have to pay the piper so to speak, this is where you and I disagree. Everyone in this job wants to do well, there is not a coach, manager, GM or player who WANTS to lose, but at the end of the day sometimes the people there just can't get it done. There is no doubt in my mind that Greg Walker wants these guys to hit and wants them to go the other way and execute and all that, but you know, they're not doing it! And someone has to take accountablity for it. I think that there has to be an owning up of the results produced here, and it seems like that is not the case. At the end of the day it's about results, and I think every major league player and everyone at any major league level knows that. I'm sure that the Yankees (for a real bad example) have had lots of great and friendly guys as managers and hitting coaches and GMs, but if they don't win and meet Steinbrenner's expectations, they are shown the door and it's just part of the business and I think the players all understand that. I don't think anyone is going to hold a grudge against the White Sox if they fire Walker, I think they'll say "you know, that offense hasn't produced what it is capable of producing for awhile now and I guess Walker had to pay the price for the poor results."

Like I said, I think that there are one of two possibilities here, one is that Walker just isn't getting through to these guys come game time, or two is that these guys are what they are and that the greatest hitting coach ever couldn't get through to these guys. If it is option two, then we need to see some changes in the lineup and the guys we put on the field and I suspect we're probably going to see that this off season and then there is a good chance that Greg Walker looks like a genius in 2010, I would LOVE for that to be the case.

Having said that, I think the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, somewhere a change has to be made here, either with the coach or the makeup of the roster. But you can't keep building a team around the same core of guys, or guys like them (ie slow power hitters) and expect different results with Walker in charge. On some level there has to be a change, whether it's the coach or the guys playing every day, there HAS to be some sort of change.

I agree with you. On the roster.

Dibbs
09-23-2009, 11:45 AM
I know what I'm talking about here and I have the support of players and other coaches within the game of baseball (NOt just with the Sox) that agree with me. Not a single person I've ever spoken to (on or off the record) who plays, coaches, or covers MLB on a regular basis believes it is Walker's fault. The only people that believe it is his fault are some of the fans. And frankly, many of the fans do not understand what the role of a hitting coach is supposed to be. It seems you fall into that category. You are one of the many that tries to simplify it to a level where there is really no simple solution.

Lol, is this a joke? Of course players and coaches will stick up for him. They are like a family and that is what you do. Luckily you know what you're talking about here though.

It may or may not be Walker's fault, but there is only one way to find out. The offense has been terrible for almost three years now. It can not hurt to make a change.

EDIT: This is Chris Rongey? Very condescending imo.

Nellie_Fox
09-23-2009, 11:48 AM
It can not hurt to make a change.Sure it can. Things could get better, but they could also get worse.

Dibbs
09-23-2009, 11:51 AM
Sure it can. Things could get better, but they could also get worse.

I would take that chance in this situation. Things can get much better, however, they can not get much worse.

Nellie_Fox
09-23-2009, 11:51 AM
they can not get much worse.That's hyperbole. Of course they can.

Dibbs
09-23-2009, 11:54 AM
That's hyperbole. Of course they can.

With the amount of offensive talent this team has, I really don't think things could get much worse. Maybe I think too highly of the team.

SI1020
09-23-2009, 12:04 PM
Did you deserve to be fired? What did you do to get fired? Is it possible that you should not have been fired? Is it possible that things happened out of your control, you were fired for it, but really should not have been because you were doing your job as best as it could be done? Nobody should accept being wrongfully fired because, "well, that's the way it is sometimes." Not that you can do much about it, since it isn't your decision, but wouldn't you agree that it should NOT happen? Would you agree that people should NOT be fired if the results are mostly out of their control?

It doesn't matter if the results of the Sox offense has been the same for 5 years or 30 years, the point some of us are making is that the results are largely out of his control (or out of the control of any hitting coach, for that matter). All he can do is prepare them (which he does) and hope they go out there and do the job they're prepared to do. The "results" or due to the makeup of the lineup, not the guy who works with them in the cage. The Angels do what they do because of the personnel in the lineup. They do what they're capable of doing.

There really isn't the possibility of debate unless everyone involved knows all the details of the issue at question. Unfortunately, much of the "debate" dies when the majority of people on one side of the argument a) don't know what a hitting coach is really supposed to do, and b) don't really know what Greg Walker says to his hitters and know what his hitting philosophy actually is. Most people still really think he tells them to swing for the fences every at bat. Who can be objective about such a thing? Looking back on my situation which was complicated, you could make a case either way. I respect your being much closer to the situation, and admit that perhaps I would feel differently if I had your job. I agree about the Angels having better personnel, but to me part of the reason they are better is they really make the pitcher work and they take advantage of the whole field. I would like to see the Sox do more of this type of hitting. The Sox are revamping their minor league system. Perhaps they can hammer this into their young hitters so that eventually a better approach to hitting will be automatic no matter who is the hitting coach.

Ranger
09-23-2009, 12:28 PM
Or they could believe he should be held accountable and are just not telling you the truth. Wouldn't be the first time players, coaches and those covering sports have not exactly told the whole story.

Mike Huff was filling in for Stone Poney the other night, singing the praises of Walker and I don't remember Hawk chiming in with anything that would suggest he was agreeing with Huff.

Your "Doctor Walker" scenario is stretched so far from what my analogy is, it's incomprehensible. I find it highly unlikely that a player would ignore useful advice from a hitting, pitching, fielding coach.

You keep hammering home the point that we are fans and have no right to an opinion in this matter because we don't know what a hitting coach does, we're not there before the games, in the clubhouse..blah, blah, blah

This isn't rocket science..We watch the games. Some of us, (like me) 162 games a year Either live, on TV, or on tape. We see the results. Going all the way back to '05, we see countless squandered offensive opportunities, men left on third with less than two outs, not being able to hit pitchers they've never seen before, not being able to move runners along, etc. It's a joke

Everyone sees the results, but that isn't the point. There is no arguing the results, but what some of us are trying to say is that the results are not a product of the hitting coach. Players have instincts, and they do what they do regardless of instruction.

I never said you don't have a right to an opinion, but you shouldn't be so confident with an opinion when you don't have all the details. My problem is that too many people are trying to simplify this issue when it is not simple. Too many people are making this an A(the hitting is bad) + B(Greg Walker is the hitting coach) = C(Walker is a bad hitting coach) argument. It just isn't that simple.

Furthermore, how you're extrapolating Hawk's disagreement with Huff from Hawk not specifically saying he agrees with Huff about Walker, is beyond me. I don't hear the Sox TV broadcasts very much because I'm not in position to do so, but from everything I understand, Hawk praises Walker all the time. Huff is just another in the massive list of guys that doesn't think Walker is at fault.

Which brings me to my last point: apparently you are unaware of what "off the record" means. Typically "off the record" information is candid because the player/coach/exec's name can't be attached to something public. So they feel like they can talk to you openly. And trust me, if a struggling player, who's livelihood depended on his performance, thought he could plant a seed to shift blame for his hitting troubles elsewhere, somewhere along the way it would happen.


It's not anymore bull**** than you insisting that the Sox would have the same results with any other hitting coach. First off, nobody knows that for a fact. It's impossible to say for certain that they'd be better, about the same or worse under somebody else. Secondly, such a statement suggests that hitting coaches are completely irrelevant to the results on the field.

If that's the case, the Sox might as well name me and Frater Perdurabo as co-hitting coaches. We'll play cards with Ozzie and Cora in the clubhouse. It doesn't matter what we tell the players or whether we're qualified for the position, because it's all on the players anyway, right?

I'm pretty damn sure that the Sox would be even more horse**** if me and Frater were the hitting coaches. I also think there's a pretty damn good chance the Sox would be a better hitting team if they had Mickey Hatcher as their hitting coach instead of Walker. But apparently that's just me. Of course, the Angels would never let Hatcher go, because unlike the Sox they get the most out of their hitters.

First, the Angels hit the way they hit because of the personnel they have. The Angels have almost all speed in that lineup with the exception of two guys. They can go first to third very easily and they didn't start the year with 3 slow-footed power guys in the heart of the order. It's a completely different makeup. The Sox can't do what they do because they don't have the players to do it. You know why Mickey Hatcher doesn't ask them to hit more home runs? Because they can't.

And again, the position of hitting coach is not completely irrelevant, but it is completely overrated. He is there to make sure guys get their work in and to make sure mechanical flaws are noticed and worked on (which they do).

But, hey, you don't have to take my word for it (because I know you won't). Just listen to someone else in the game talk about it. They'll tell you the same thing I will.

Ranger
09-23-2009, 12:41 PM
Lol, is this a joke? Of course players and coaches will stick up for him. They are like a family and that is what you do. Luckily you know what you're talking about here though.

It may or may not be Walker's fault, but there is only one way to find out. The offense has been terrible for almost three years now. It can not hurt to make a change.

EDIT: This is Chris Rongey? Very condescending imo.

Not when they speak to you off the record, as I just explained in a previous post. I've had quite a few Sox players/coaches say some negative things about someone else on the team. For example, a couple of years ago, there was one guy that hated Ozzie. Granted, that guy was terrible, but still he told me that while he was still playing here. Another guy (on this team) told me a current teammate "thinks he's better than he is." I've had a coach and player call a certain teammate "lazy" and I was surprised by who it was. You learn quite a bit about what guys really think when you talk to them like that.

They're family when the game starts and until it ends, but nobody says they have to like each other outside of that.

Not attempting to be condescending. I just think people should take the time to understand what a hitting coach is supposed to do before they demand he lose his job.

Who can be objective about such a thing? Looking back on my situation which was complicated, you could make a case either way. I respect your being much closer to the situation, and admit that perhaps I would feel differently if I had your job. I agree about the Angels having better personnel, but to me part of the reason they are better is they really make the pitcher work and they take advantage of the whole field. I would like to see the Sox do more of this type of hitting. The Sox are revamping their minor league system. Perhaps they can hammer this into their young hitters so that eventually a better approach to hitting will be automatic no matter who is the hitting coach.

(Forgot to respond to this last part. Sorry)

You've touched on something that gets overlooked but is critical to the situation. What some don't realize is that the greatest amount of improvements a hitter makes is before he gets to the major league level. Therefore, for better results on the field, the Sox will have to show improvement in scouting, drafting, and development. For the most part, guys know what they know before they get here and the philosophy of the organization has to be identical from bottom to the top.

The Angels take advantage of the whole field because those are the types of hitters they are, for the most part. The Angels do all that stuff (drafting, scouting, developing) right and the results show at the major league level. This is where the Sox have to make the improvements felt.

Craig Grebeck
09-23-2009, 12:49 PM
You should care if Flowers is catching or not, it's actually quite reckless otherwise. As I said earlier, his bat is not in question. His defense, however, is. While some ABs at this level certainly don't hurt him, it is equally important, if not moreso, for him to get behind the plate.

Not to mention the fact it wouldn't be a bad thing for AJ's legs to get some time off from catching whenever possible.

You should be calling for AJ to sit, not Kotsay. And I'm curious for an explanation as to why you haven't asked for that...
His bat most definitely is in question -- all prospects need time to adjust and develop. He's this organization's best hitting prospect by a mile, but saying that ABs at this level won't "hurt" him is totally dishonest.

While I'd like to see him behind the plate, I can at least understand better the benefits of having AJ get consistent playing time than rotating Kotsay/Podsednik between the outfield, DH, and 1B in the case of Kotsay. Just stick Flowers at DH or C and be done with it. There's no reason he should miss a game for the rest of the season.

Domeshot17
09-23-2009, 12:51 PM
Ranger-

Bottom line, how does this team improve? Kenny has to make some major additions, and to the MIDDLE OF THE ORDER. Right now, this team doesn't have 1 hitter any of us can say with any confidence will drive in 100 runs next year. For all the LETS GET CHONE FIGGINS NEXT YEAR rave, Pods has done well. The difference between Figgins and Pods is NOTICABLE, but not the difference in the standings.

Konerko at this point in his career is hitting 6th on a good roster. 25 homers 85 rbis with a 275 average. Quentin has MVP potential, but really hes a walking injury. Dye surely will not be back 12 million which his utter offensive death in the 2nd half and we have not replaced Thome yet (although yes, Ozzie has said he wants a DH rotation next year).

Ozzie got "his team" this year. He got a fast team that was in the top 6 in the AL in stolen bases and not in the top half of teams in strike outs. He gota bunch of scrappy guys who can hit for an average, get on base, steal bases.

So back to my point, we need 2 middle of the order bats, presumably in the Corner OF and DH. We have a high payroll as is, and I can't imagine in this economy after this performance the White Sox would raise prices/make MORE premium games AGAIN.

Do you think they will be major players in Free Agency for the first time? I can't stomach another offseason of hoping lightning in the bottle offensive players like Erstad are the answer. I also know in our ballpark, speed and gap hitters make less sense then true 30 home run potential sluggers in the middle. Maybe a Jim Thome is not the answer because he couldn't play the field, but maybe an Adam Dunn who can rotate around is?

It just seems to me Kenny has his work cut out for him because of the lack of depth in farm offensively. It also means what prospects (or current players) go if we have to trade for this?

Ranger
09-23-2009, 01:02 PM
Ranger-

Bottom line, how does this team improve? Kenny has to make some major additions, and to the MIDDLE OF THE ORDER. Right now, this team doesn't have 1 hitter any of us can say with any confidence will drive in 100 runs next year. For all the LETS GET CHONE FIGGINS NEXT YEAR rave, Pods has done well. The difference between Figgins and Pods is NOTICABLE, but not the difference in the standings.

Konerko at this point in his career is hitting 6th on a good roster. 25 homers 85 rbis with a 275 average. Quentin has MVP potential, but really hes a walking injury. Dye surely will not be back 12 million which his utter offensive death in the 2nd half and we have not replaced Thome yet (although yes, Ozzie has said he wants a DH rotation next year).

Ozzie got "his team" this year. He got a fast team that was in the top 6 in the AL in stolen bases and not in the top half of teams in strike outs. He gota bunch of scrappy guys who can hit for an average, get on base, steal bases.

So back to my point, we need 2 middle of the order bats, presumably in the Corner OF and DH. We have a high payroll as is, and I can't imagine in this economy after this performance the White Sox would raise prices/make MORE premium games AGAIN.

Do you think they will be major players in Free Agency for the first time? I can't stomach another offseason of hoping lightning in the bottle offensive players like Erstad are the answer. I also know in our ballpark, speed and gap hitters make less sense then true 30 home run potential sluggers in the middle. Maybe a Jim Thome is not the answer because he couldn't play the field, but maybe an Adam Dunn who can rotate around is?

It just seems to me Kenny has his work cut out for him because of the lack of depth in farm offensively. It also means what prospects (or current players) go if we have to trade for this?

Well, quite honestly, they need Quentin to bounce back and PK to repeat next year what he did this year. And they need Rios to stop messing around. They need results from him.

Figgins would be nice, but I'm not all that optimistic he'll end up here. I would have no problem with Podsednik coming back, but ideally they get someone else with a little pop that can maybe play right filed if they re-sign Pods.

salty99
09-23-2009, 01:12 PM
How about the other coaches ? Will they be back?

Dick Allen
09-23-2009, 01:13 PM
The fact is, everybody is rightfully impatient with the hitting on this team. Whether Walker is at fault or not, he's the most inviting target. If the real problem lies with the players themselves, then we're talking about a roster turnover of some degree. After waiting so long for a championship which finally came in '05, I don't think I have the patience to wait out a roster turnover unless Kenny makes some magic happen. We certainly can't wait that long with the starting pitching we have right now.

Lip Man 1
09-23-2009, 01:24 PM
Dome:

If you consider having guys like “Corky” Miller, Jose Contreras, Brent Lillibridge, Josh Fields, Mike MacDougal, Lance Broadway, Dewayne Wise, Bartolo Colon, Brian Anderson, Jack Egbert and Wilson Betemit, "Ozzie's kind of players" than I admire your sense of connection.

Me thinks the type of players that Ozzie had in mind to run his type of offense and the type of talent that was assembled by Kenny and ownership are two different things.

Lip

salty99
09-23-2009, 01:33 PM
It also doesn't help that according to Cowley on Boers and B show that Jenks is eating himself away and Rios is partying a lot.

JB98
09-23-2009, 01:41 PM
But, hey, you don't have to take my word for it (because I know you won't). Just listen to someone else in the game talk about it. They'll tell you the same thing I will.

Of course I'm not going to take your word for it because you're speaking in absolutes about the situation. To me, working on mechanical flaws and making sure they get their work in is just part of the job. Who in this organization is creating an atmosphere where the players aren't overwhelmed by the pressure to perform? That's probably my biggest concern with the hitters right now. They are all mind-****ed. They all shrink from the pressure. They struggle with RISP. They fade in September every year. They can't knock in big runs. Why is that? IMO, the pressure is KILLING them.

We have a GM who has a win-or-die mentality. He said in August that this season would be his great disappointment if the team failed to make the playoffs. (Pressure mounting.) We have a manager who talks about how everyone is "horse****," and that they have "the tight ass," and the veterans are all walking around with "their tails between their legs." (Pressure mounting). Who is taking the pressure off these guys, Ranger? I see these guys squeezing the sawdust out of the bats. Quentin is beating himself up every time he makes an out. Has anyone pulled Carlos aside and told him this is only baseball, and while it is his profession, it's supposed to be fun? Walker sure as hell isn't the guy to get these players to lighten up. He takes the losses harder than the players.

That's why I brought up the example of Hatcher. Yes, the Angels have a little different personnel. But that's almost beside the point. Hatcher has the reputation as a prankster. He's the good cop to Scoiscia's bad cop. Obviously, you can't be joking around all the time. There is a time to work. But you need somebody to lighten up the atmosphere from time to time. Now, the Sox are not ever going to have Mickey Hatcher as their hitting coach. I realize that. But I am arguing that maybe we need a little bit of a different personality type from our hitting coach.

These last few weeks, I get the sense our players have been suffocated to death. They don't seem to be having fun playing the game, and I'm certainly not having any fun following the team. Kenny and Ozzie are who they are, and they won't change. I think they are both good baseball men, and I don't want either of them gone. But their style can be grating for some players. I think they need some coaches on this staff who can help the players cope with the demands that come with playing with the White Sox (tough GM, demanding manager, big city media, fickle fans, etc.).

This isn't about change for the sake of change. I'm looking at the results. I'm looking at the attitude of the team. And I don't like what I see. It's unfortunate because I like this pitching staff a lot. With our pitching, we should be better than this. At the very least, we should be scoring more runs than also-rans like Oakland, Baltimore and Toronto. We have more offensive talent than those clubs. Unfortunately, we have worse results.

JB98
09-23-2009, 01:49 PM
Ranger-

Bottom line, how does this team improve? Kenny has to make some major additions, and to the MIDDLE OF THE ORDER. Right now, this team doesn't have 1 hitter any of us can say with any confidence will drive in 100 runs next year. For all the LETS GET CHONE FIGGINS NEXT YEAR rave, Pods has done well. The difference between Figgins and Pods is NOTICABLE, but not the difference in the standings.

Konerko at this point in his career is hitting 6th on a good roster. 25 homers 85 rbis with a 275 average. Quentin has MVP potential, but really hes a walking injury. Dye surely will not be back 12 million which his utter offensive death in the 2nd half and we have not replaced Thome yet (although yes, Ozzie has said he wants a DH rotation next year).

Ozzie got "his team" this year. He got a fast team that was in the top 6 in the AL in stolen bases and not in the top half of teams in strike outs. He gota bunch of scrappy guys who can hit for an average, get on base, steal bases.

So back to my point, we need 2 middle of the order bats, presumably in the Corner OF and DH. We have a high payroll as is, and I can't imagine in this economy after this performance the White Sox would raise prices/make MORE premium games AGAIN.

Do you think they will be major players in Free Agency for the first time? I can't stomach another offseason of hoping lightning in the bottle offensive players like Erstad are the answer. I also know in our ballpark, speed and gap hitters make less sense then true 30 home run potential sluggers in the middle. Maybe a Jim Thome is not the answer because he couldn't play the field, but maybe an Adam Dunn who can rotate around is?

It just seems to me Kenny has his work cut out for him because of the lack of depth in farm offensively. It also means what prospects (or current players) go if we have to trade for this?

Let me just say that I about throw up when people advocate the acquisition of Figgins. He's 32 years old, and he's going to get overpaid this offseason. We don't need to give that guy the five-year deal that he's going to get.

I think there's a misunderstanding out there that the Sox need "table-setters." Actually, no, they don't. They need somebody who can knock in runs. The run production is AWFUL on this team.

Right now, AJ is batting third. You got Ramirez batting fifth. Those guys should be batting 7 and 8. They've been moved up in the order because the Sox aren't getting any production at all out of the middle.

Forgetting the hitting coach argument for a minute, as far as roster moves go, the Sox desperately need someone who can be a force in the middle of the order. Konerko has been solid this year, but the man who hit 40 homers and drove in 100 four years ago is gone and unlikely to return. Domeshot is right on this -- Paulie is a No. 6 hitter at this stage of his career, not a cleanup man. He's going to be 34 on Opening Day next year, and he can't carry the club like he has in the past.

We don't need Figgins. We need an RBI man.

Domeshot17
09-23-2009, 01:51 PM
Dome:

If you consider having guys like “Corky” Miller, Jose Contreras, Brent Lillibridge, Josh Fields, Mike MacDougal, Lance Broadway, Dewayne Wise, Bartolo Colon, Brian Anderson, Jack Egbert and Wilson Betemit, "Ozzie's kind of players" than I admire your sense of connection.

Me thinks the type of players that Ozzie had in mind to run his type of offense and the type of talent that was assembled by Kenny and ownership are two different things.

Lip

Now lets be fair, Miller was the back up C, we won a title with Freaking Chris Widger. Contreras was Ozzie's boy and has been for a while. Lillibridge was a guy Ozzie and Kenny RAVVVEEEEDDDD about in the offseason for his speed, Ozzie even came out and said he will steal 40 bases. Fields was at a power position and provided speed and athleticism outside of power. Macdougal and Broadway collectively were on the roster, what, 20 games? Ozzie LOVES WISE, that was proven,
You are basically saying that, because the 20-25th men on the roster sucked, Ozzie didn't get a chance to play Ozzie ball to which I call BS. The Sox, every game, had an offense of athletic and fast players. Outside of Fields and Beckham, there shouldn't have been problems defensively.

So Yes, I think Ultimately, Ozzie got the roster he wanted. Epecially ****ing down the stretch. We were JUST OUT OF FIRST PLACE WITH ALMOST NO ONE ON YOUR SKEWED LIST LEFT ON THE ROSTER, and we pissed it away. Was it because Corky Miller played in a handful of games? Or Jack Egbert got a cup of coffee? Or was it because the Sox don't have anyone on the roster to drive any of these guys in? You really struggle to win with 5-6 all or nothing home run hitters on your team, but you also can't win with nothing but table setters, as proven this year.

Domeshot17
09-23-2009, 01:52 PM
Let me just say that I about throw up when people advocate the acquisition of Figgins. He's 32 years old, and he's going to get overpaid this offseason. We don't need to give that guy the five-year deal that he's going to get.

I think there's a misunderstanding out there that the Sox need "table-setters." Actually, no, they don't. They need somebody who can knock in runs. The run production is AWFUL on this team.

Right now, AJ is batting third. You got Ramirez batting fifth. Those guys should be batting 7 and 8. They've been moved up in the order because the Sox aren't getting any production at all out of the middle.

Forgetting the hitting coach argument for a minute, as far as roster moves go, the Sox desperately need someone who can be a force in the middle of the order. Konerko has been solid this year, but the man who hit 40 homers and drove in 100 four years ago is gone and unlikely to return. Domeshot is right on this -- Paulie is a No. 6 hitter at this stage of his career, not a cleanup man. He's going to be 34 on Opening Day next year, and he can't carry the club like he has in the past.

We don't need Figgins. We need an RBI man.

We may have disagreed on a lot of things in the past, but I couldn't agree with anything more.

Pear-Zin-Ski
09-23-2009, 01:57 PM
Dome:

If you consider having guys like “Corky” Miller, Jose Contreras, Brent Lillibridge, Josh Fields, Mike MacDougal, Lance Broadway, Dewayne Wise, Bartolo Colon, Brian Anderson, Jack Egbert and Wilson Betemit, "Ozzie's kind of players" than I admire your sense of connection.

Me thinks the type of players that Ozzie had in mind to run his type of offense and the type of talent that was assembled by Kenny and ownership are two different things.

Lip

I think we have all forgotten how terrible our first two months were. Maybe as of the moment, due to our terrible first couple of months, the hole we dug ourselves has just put this team to sleep? Yet again, I'll say that I am just floored as to why this team isn't playing anywhere NEAR its potential.

SI1020
09-23-2009, 03:27 PM
We may have disagreed on a lot of things in the past, but I couldn't agree with anything more. Me three.

Ranger
09-23-2009, 03:48 PM
The fact is, everybody is rightfully impatient with the hitting on this team. Whether Walker is at fault or not, he's the most inviting target. If the real problem lies with the players themselves, then we're talking about a roster turnover of some degree. After waiting so long for a championship which finally came in '05, I don't think I have the patience to wait out a roster turnover unless Kenny makes some magic happen. We certainly can't wait that long with the starting pitching we have right now.

I completely agree with you here. The good thing about it is that I'm not sure a ton of turnover is needed. The most important thing may be to break up the aging core, which has already begun.

TheVulture
09-23-2009, 03:49 PM
The 2009 White Sox are The Runless Wonders.

Except there's nothing wondrous about them.

Ranger
09-23-2009, 04:01 PM
Of course I'm not going to take your word for it because you're speaking in absolutes about the situation. To me, working on mechanical flaws and making sure they get their work in is just part of the job. Who in this organization is creating an atmosphere where the players aren't overwhelmed by the pressure to perform? That's probably my biggest concern with the hitters right now. They are all mind-****ed. They all shrink from the pressure. They struggle with RISP. They fade in September every year. They can't knock in big runs. Why is that? IMO, the pressure is KILLING them.

We have a GM who has a win-or-die mentality. He said in August that this season would be his great disappointment if the team failed to make the playoffs. (Pressure mounting.) We have a manager who talks about how everyone is "horse****," and that they have "the tight ass," and the veterans are all walking around with "their tails between their legs." (Pressure mounting). Who is taking the pressure off these guys, Ranger? I see these guys squeezing the sawdust out of the bats. Quentin is beating himself up every time he makes an out. Has anyone pulled Carlos aside and told him this is only baseball, and while it is his profession, it's supposed to be fun? Walker sure as hell isn't the guy to get these players to lighten up. He takes the losses harder than the players.

That's why I brought up the example of Hatcher. Yes, the Angels have a little different personnel. But that's almost beside the point. Hatcher has the reputation as a prankster. He's the good cop to Scoiscia's bad cop. Obviously, you can't be joking around all the time. There is a time to work. But you need somebody to lighten up the atmosphere from time to time. Now, the Sox are not ever going to have Mickey Hatcher as their hitting coach. I realize that. But I am arguing that maybe we need a little bit of a different personality type from our hitting coach.

These last few weeks, I get the sense our players have been suffocated to death. They don't seem to be having fun playing the game, and I'm certainly not having any fun following the team. Kenny and Ozzie are who they are, and they won't change. I think they are both good baseball men, and I don't want either of them gone. But their style can be grating for some players. I think they need some coaches on this staff who can help the players cope with the demands that come with playing with the White Sox (tough GM, demanding manager, big city media, fickle fans, etc.).

This isn't about change for the sake of change. I'm looking at the results. I'm looking at the attitude of the team. And I don't like what I see. It's unfortunate because I like this pitching staff a lot. With our pitching, we should be better than this. At the very least, we should be scoring more runs than also-rans like Oakland, Baltimore and Toronto. We have more offensive talent than those clubs. Unfortunately, we have worse results.

First of all, if Jermaine Dye doesn't completely disappear in the second half like he has, this whole situation would be MUCH different than it is now. You can't have a guy that is arguably your best run producer just suddenly stop hitting. And that is nobody's fault except for Dye's...although there may not even be anything he can do about it.

I agree that the players can feel suffocated, but I don't think that so much comes from within. I mean, what GM/Manager/Coach DOESN'T say they expect to win? They ALL do on every team. If anything, Ozzie and the coaching staff try to shield these players too much. Now, I do think they can feel quite a bit of pressure from the "fickle fans" as you put it, and I know nobody likes to hear it, but JB is right on that one. In case you missed it, Daniel Hudson got a fairly significant amount of boos when he walked in a run the other night. In his first ever major league start. In his second inning. That is simply unacceptable from your home fans. Now, it wasn't most of the crowd, but there were enough ignorant people that it made a lot of us watching take notice. DeWayne Wise got booed in his THIRD AT BAT OF THE SEASON. ON OPENING DAY. Good Lord.

At any rate, Walker consistently preaches to them to relax and often tells them not to feel like they have to get it all done by themselves. Yet, I think it just may be innate in some of these players to feel overwhelmed. You mentioned Quentin...nobody is EVER going to get that guy to relax. He's the worst when it comes to that sort of thing. That's just his personality.

southside rocks
09-23-2009, 04:43 PM
First of all, if Jermaine Dye doesn't completely disappear in the second half like he has, this whole situation would be MUCH different than it is now. You can't have a guy that is arguably your best run producer just suddenly stop hitting. And that is nobody's fault except for Dye's...although there may not even be anything he can do about it.

I agree that the players can feel suffocated, but I don't think that so much comes from within. I mean, what GM/Manager/Coach DOESN'T say they expect to win? They ALL do on every team. If anything, Ozzie and the coaching staff try to shield these players too much. Now, I do think they can feel quite a bit of pressure from the "fickle fans" as you put it, and I know nobody likes to hear it, but JB is right on that one. In case you missed it, Daniel Hudson got a fairly significant amount of boos when he walked in a run the other night. In his first ever major league start. In his second inning. That is simply unacceptable from your home fans. Now, it wasn't most of the crowd, but there were enough ignorant people that it made a lot of us watching take notice. DeWayne Wise got booed in his THIRD AT BAT OF THE SEASON. ON OPENING DAY. Good Lord.

At any rate, Walker consistently preaches to them to relax and often tells them not to feel like they have to get it all done by themselves. Yet, I think it just may be innate in some of these players to feel overwhelmed. You mentioned Quentin...nobody is EVER going to get that guy to relax. He's the worst when it comes to that sort of thing. That's just his personality.

I agree with you. I think that there are a number of players on the current Sox team whose makeup is more "intense" than otherwise -- Quentin for sure, Konerko seems that way, JD may be as well, and there are others -- and there aren't too many of the clown/cutup types represented. But that's not why the team is playing badly ... Lightening up the atmosphere might help to stop a losing streak before it reaches 5 or 7 or 10 games, but it isn't the reason why so much of the roster has underperformed this year. Alexei Ramirez hasn't built on his freshman year; in fact, he's had rather a disappointing second year. Stuff like that.

The ability to perform well under pressure is one that every pro athlete should have, but it's found in varying degrees in different players. Even though baseball is a team sport, it has significant elements of solo competition, in that it's batter vs. pitcher, etc. A large part of the maturation process of a big-leaguer, I think, is finding and refining that ability to perform well under pressure. If the clubhouse atmosphere helps, great; but if it doesn't, that doesn't excuse bad play.

The Sox have made too many mental mistakes this year. As Farmer noted last night, physical errors are one thing; they can and do happen to everyone. But mental errors, and consistent mental errors, are another story. Those have been the cause of too many losses this year, IMO. I don't know the reason, but if it's pressure, then the players need to find some way to cope with it.

Lip Man 1
09-23-2009, 05:50 PM
Dome:

April losses count just as much as September ones. This team was put in the hole from the get go in large part because the talent on the entire 25 man roster was far less than what Sox fans have come to expect this decade.

That onus falls squarely, completely and totally on the GM who did little to replace the talent that he shipped out over the off season. Period.

Now as I have said before he may get something of a pass if it can be proven (not speculated) that ownership tied his hands because they were so concerned about 2010 economically that they threw away most of the 2009 season, and by the time Kenny convinced them to change course it was too late.

Ozzie has said often, including today, he doesn't play GM, although he has told him there were certain guys he didn't want on the team.

Lip

soxtalker
09-23-2009, 06:32 PM
Dome:

April losses count just as much as September ones. This team was put in the hole from the get go in large part because the talent on the entire 25 man roster was far less than what Sox fans have come to expect this decade.

That onus falls squarely, completely and totally on the GM who did little to replace the talent that he shipped out over the off season. Period.

Now as I have said before he may get something of a pass if it can be proven (not speculated) that ownership tied his hands because they were so concerned about 2010 economically that they threw away most of the 2009 season, and by the time Kenny convinced them to change course it was too late.

Ozzie has said often, including today, he doesn't play GM, although he has told him there were certain guys he didn't want on the team.

Lip

I've had the feeling for most of the season that the team just wasn't that good. I'm not sure what it was -- the early losses, the poor defense, the bad offense ... Maybe all of the factors taken together.

I don't have a strong opinion on the Walker debate. There's too much I don't know. I do think there is a systemic problem -- what younger players learn in the minors -- though we rely on a lot at the MLB level on players imported from other teams. I also suspect that a big factor with any hitting coach is being on the same page with Ozzie.

I'll probably give Kenny a pass, though not for the reason you suggest (having his hands tied by ownership). I just think that big changes were tough to make. The core of our lineup -- Konerko, Thome, and Dye -- weren't likely to be moved. Konerko had complete veto power (via 5-10 rights). I think Thome had the same (via contract), and his DH role limited where he could be traded. Trading Dye early in the season when his average was good was probably the easiest. Even that may have been limited in this economic climate, as a trade would have guaranteed his next year's contract.

JB98
09-23-2009, 07:34 PM
First of all, if Jermaine Dye doesn't completely disappear in the second half like he has, this whole situation would be MUCH different than it is now. You can't have a guy that is arguably your best run producer just suddenly stop hitting. And that is nobody's fault except for Dye's...although there may not even be anything he can do about it.

I agree that the players can feel suffocated, but I don't think that so much comes from within. I mean, what GM/Manager/Coach DOESN'T say they expect to win? They ALL do on every team. If anything, Ozzie and the coaching staff try to shield these players too much. Now, I do think they can feel quite a bit of pressure from the "fickle fans" as you put it, and I know nobody likes to hear it, but JB is right on that one. In case you missed it, Daniel Hudson got a fairly significant amount of boos when he walked in a run the other night. In his first ever major league start. In his second inning. That is simply unacceptable from your home fans. Now, it wasn't most of the crowd, but there were enough ignorant people that it made a lot of us watching take notice. DeWayne Wise got booed in his THIRD AT BAT OF THE SEASON. ON OPENING DAY. Good Lord.

At any rate, Walker consistently preaches to them to relax and often tells them not to feel like they have to get it all done by themselves. Yet, I think it just may be innate in some of these players to feel overwhelmed. You mentioned Quentin...nobody is EVER going to get that guy to relax. He's the worst when it comes to that sort of thing. That's just his personality.

I was at the game Monday night, and I didn't miss that. I agree it was ridiculous if they were booing Hudson. Perhaps they were booing the umpire? From my perspective, there were some close calls that went against young Daniel. The boos Wise got on Opening Day were ridiculous. I'm not one of the people booing Rios or Dye either. That's not helping anything.

I still believe, though, that there is a tremendous amount of internal pressure put on the players. Maybe they would be better served to stop reading the newspapers. Some days, Ozzie protects them. Other days, he goes off on them. I'm not in the clubhouse, but judging by the performance and the body language I see from certain players, I don't see an atmosphere that is conducive to success right now with the White Sox.

captain54
09-23-2009, 09:33 PM
There is no arguing the results, but what some of us are trying to say is that the results are not a product of the hitting coach.

What some of you are really trying to say is that Greg Walker has tried to fix the hitting issues with this team, and since he has tried and can't fix them no one else can. Its all on the players, and no other coach on the face of the planet is gonna help what offensively ails the Sox. Ok. whatever you say Ranger.

I never said you don't have a right to an opinion, but you shouldn't be so confident with an opinion when you don't have all the details.

There are tons of people that make a living confidently shooting off their mouths on sports talk radio/TV without having all the details, so what new?

Apart from that, if I want a dentist to fix my toothache, I don't need all the details of his job, his duties, where he studied, etc...I just need him to take care of the pain

And quite frankly, the fact that you are interviewing players and such and kibbutzing with them "off the record" doesn't necessarily mean you have all the details.

I'm sure Walker is a cool guy and he quite possibly works hard at what he does. Maybe that's why no one wants to talk smack about him, who knows. the bottom line is, the offensive malaise has been going on for years now, in some cases dooming an entire season since 05.

"The "results" or due to the makeup of the lineup, not the guy who works with them in the cage."

Bottom line, this is the biggest issue I have with your argument. As was stated before, if that's the case, then Les Grobstein could be the hitting coach.

DirtySox
09-23-2009, 09:50 PM
Speaking of Walker, rumor has it that all coaches whose contracts were to expire have signed extensions. Including Walker.

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2009/09/source_says_coaches_and_willia.html

southside rocks
09-23-2009, 10:22 PM
Kenny Williams' comments tonight to the media were pretty interesting. Joe Cowley was on B&B before the game, and he said that he asked KW if he -- KW -- found this year's team lacking in mental toughness, to which KW replied "Yes."

They're not grinders, that's for sure. :D:

But seriously, this was what JB was talking about earlier, I think: how the players handle pressure and why this year's squad does such a poor job of that. I don't think that it's on the coaches or manager so much as I think that this particular group of guys just doesn't have that quality that Cowley called "mental toughness."

It will be interesting to see how that perceived lack is addressed by KW in his off-season moves.

Ranger
09-23-2009, 10:48 PM
What some of you are really trying to say is that Greg Walker has tried to fix the hitting issues with this team, and since he has tried and can't fix them no one else can. Its all on the players, and no other coach on the face of the planet is gonna help what offensively ails the Sox. Ok. whatever you say Ranger.

No, what I said was that the hitting coach's effect on the hitters is not as great as fans think it is. Nobody close to the game thinks there's much he could've done. That's what I'm saying.

There are tons of people that make a living confidently shooting off their mouths on sports talk radio/TV without having all the details, so what new?

And I think it's ridiculous that people that don't know what they're talking about get to influence other people that aren't quite sure either. Some hosts really should know more before they demand someone get fired.

Apart from that, if I want a dentist to fix my toothache, I don't need all the details of his job, his duties, where he studied, etc...I just need him to take care of the pain

Another terrible analogy. There is almost always one simple solution to a toothache every time. Take the thing out. How many times have you heard of a person going back to the dentist with the same toothache only to have the dentist say, "man, I don't know what's wrong..."?

And quite frankly, the fact that you are interviewing players and such and kibbutzing with them "off the record" doesn't necessarily mean you have all the details.

Um, alright. You don't think it means I have a pretty good idea of what players present and former really think about him? OK.

I'm sure Walker is a cool guy and he quite possibly works hard at what he does. Maybe that's why no one wants to talk smack about him, who knows. the bottom line is, the offensive malaise has been going on for years now, in some cases dooming an entire season since 05.

Believe me, if there were players that felt he wasn't doing his job, it would be out there. You would've heard about it by now.

"The "results" or due to the makeup of the lineup, not the guy who works with them in the cage."

Bottom line, this is the biggest issue I have with your argument. As was stated before, if that's the case, then Les Grobstein could be the hitting coach.

No, that's you taking it to the extreme because you know it sounds absurd and somehow makes my argument less credible.

Here's the bottom line: you believe that the Sox have bad hitting, and Greg Walker is the hitting coach, therefore Greg Walker is not a good hitting coach argument. You will never change your mind. Even if a player makes the case for him.

GoSox2K3
09-23-2009, 11:33 PM
I completely agree with you here. The good thing about it is that I'm not sure a ton of turnover is needed. The most important thing may be to break up the aging core, which has already begun.

It's easy enough to "break up the aging core" with Dye's and Thome's contracts ending this year. The problem is how do the Sox fill those voids?

I know keeping Dye and Thome weren't viable options for 2010 because they're both on significant decline. But, their pre-decline production will not be easy to replace. I wouldn't be surprised if the Sox don't have much extra money to spend this offseason to improve what is now an awful offense. Anyone who thinks the Sox have money to throw at Crawford, Abreu, or Figgins is just dreaming.

Lip Man 1
09-23-2009, 11:43 PM
GoSox:

You have a point about the economics no question about it, but how about this point.

Another bad season in 2010 and there will be basically empty seats at U.S. Cellular Field in 2011. Pretty strong motivation to do whatever needs to be done to correct this sinking ship no?

Lip

captain54
09-24-2009, 12:24 AM
No, what I said was that the hitting coach's effect on the hitters is not as great as fans think it is. Nobody close to the game thinks there's much he could've done. That's what I'm saying.



Maybe if you were signing the payroll checks for the 2010 season you would think differently, especially if 2010 is repeat of 2009.

Those "close to the game" aren't the ones filling the stadium and generating revenue. It's the unsophisticated fan who isn't privvy to all the "insider" information, it's the unsophisticated fan who isn't anywhere nearly as knowledgeable as you are as to what a hitting coaches duties are.

Ranger
09-24-2009, 01:52 AM
Maybe if you were signing the payroll checks for the 2010 season you would think differently, especially if 2010 is repeat of 2009.

Those "close to the game" aren't the ones filling the stadium and generating revenue. It's the unsophisticated fan who isn't privvy to all the "insider" information, it's the unsophisticated fan who isn't anywhere nearly as knowledgeable as you are as to what a hitting coaches duties are.

I've attempted several times to explain here the actual role of a hitting coach as compared to the fans' percieved role. There are quite a few people that do understand. There are also quite a few people who refuse to accpet it because they want a quick fix.

Yes, the fans are the ones that will fill the seats, but the firing of Greg Walker and the hiring of somebody different is not going to fill the seats. Two things inspire fans to buy tickets 1) Good play, and 2) excitement of the expectation of a big year. If people think the Sox are gonna have a big year, people will buy tickets. Firing Greg Walker will not make fans rush to the box office. And even if it makes them think next season's prospects will be better because of it, it won't be a great enough effect to cause a tidal wave of preseason ticket sales.

Basically, people aren't going to buy tickets because Greg Walker gets fired or because he keeps his job.

Nellie_Fox
09-24-2009, 02:02 AM
Basically, people aren't going to buy tickets because Greg Walker gets fired or because he keeps his job.The vast majority of people who go to baseball games are "casual" fans. They watch games on TV, they go to a couple of games at the park, but they probably have no idea who Greg Walker is. They may have heard his name, but don't know what he does. Firing Walker would have no impact on attendance.

captain54
09-24-2009, 08:48 PM
The vast majority of people who go to baseball games are "casual" fans. They watch games on TV, they go to a couple of games at the park, but they probably have no idea who Greg Walker is. They may have heard his name, but don't know what he does. Firing Walker would have no impact on attendance.

I don't know how you can make this statement. Do you have any sort of concrete statistic to back this up?

I go to games and have conversations with "average Joe" fans that are sitting around me and I can tell you they sure as hell know who Greg Walker is.

Ranger
09-24-2009, 08:59 PM
I don't know how you can make this statement. Do you have any sort of concrete statistic to back this up?

I go to games and have conversations with "average Joe" fans that are sitting around me and I can tell you they sure as hell know who Greg Walker is.

Nellie is right. While a lot of people that attend games know who Greg Walker is, "die hards" are a minority at every ball park. Major sports venues are mostly filled with people that watch casually, which is why teams do so much work to appeal to them. Hence, a lot of the auxiliary activities along the concourse and promotions in between innings. While it may not be the case for you, most people are not just coming for the product on the field.

If it were just about the game, there would only be a game and nothing else.

captain54
09-24-2009, 09:09 PM
Nellie is right. While a lot of people that attend games know who Greg Walker is, "die hards" are a minority at every ball park. Major sports venues are mostly filled with people that watch casually, which is why teams do so much work to appeal to them. Hence, a lot of the auxiliary activities along the concourse and promotions in between innings. While it may not be the case for you, most people are not just coming for the product on the field.

If it were just about the game, there would only be a game and nothing else.

Yet, the season ticket holders dictate payroll..(I believe that's a direct quote from you on your radio show, if I'm not mistaken)...and my best guess is that most die hards reside there..

I'm not saying a switch to a different hitting coach is gonna directly affect the bottom line, however, the organization making some cumulative moves in the off season telegraphing that they are just as fed up with the miserable offense as the fans are, wouldn't hurt....whether it be players, hitting coaches, or preferably both.

Hitmen77
09-24-2009, 09:45 PM
GoSox:

You have a point about the economics no question about it, but how about this point.

Another bad season in 2010 and there will be basically empty seats at U.S. Cellular Field in 2011. Pretty strong motivation to do whatever needs to be done to correct this sinking ship no?

Lip

That almost never happens with the Sox. They won't go over budget. I'm not necessarily saying they should, but simply that they almost never do.

The only time I can remember when they were going to go out and grab a free agent that would have put them over budget was when they almost signed Torii Hunter. Maybe Albert Belle is another example. But those are definitely the exceptions.

Lip Man 1
09-24-2009, 11:16 PM
Hitmen:

I don't know what they will or will not do. My only point was that another stinker season and their season tickets and individual ticket sales will fall off dramatically. Sox fans aren't stupid and history shows they won't support a bad team.

So the choice is the organizations.

Actually I can't even fathom that we are talking about these things four years after winning a World Series.

I posted at the time that the 'bad days' were done, that Kenny's dream of winning something of substance in order to boost attendance which would enable the Sox to get top talent had been realized and that we wouldn't have to worry about 'attendance' and 'payroll' issues again. The Sox weren't going to turn into the Yankees but the days of struggling were over.

Silly, stupid me.

The Sox have averaged 2.7 million fans a year from 2006 to 2008, guess that wasn't enough was it, even though that's the second best in franchise history, only the period from 91-93 drew more with the opening of the new stadium.

Lip

Big D
09-24-2009, 11:43 PM
Hitmen:

I don't know what they will or will not do. My only point was that another stinker season and their season tickets and individual ticket sales will fall off dramatically. Sox fans aren't stupid and history shows they won't support a bad team.

So the choice is the organizations.

Actually I can't even fathom that we are talking about these things four years after winning a World Series.

I posted at the time that the 'bad days' were done, that Kenny's dream of winning something of substance in order to boost attendance which would enable the Sox to get top talent had been realized and that we wouldn't have to worry about 'attendance' and 'payroll' issues again. The Sox weren't going to turn into the Yankees but the days of struggling were over.

Silly, stupid me.

The Sox have averaged 2.7 million fans a year from 2006 to 2008, guess that wasn't enough was it, even though that's the second best in franchise history, only the period from 91-93 drew more with the opening of the new stadium.

Lip

The Sox did have one of the highest payrolls in baseball from 2006-08, so I don't know if spending money has been a huge issue (maybe who they've spent it on has been an issue). This year, though . . . yeah, it's very frustrating to see a team like Detroit, playing in a city with a 30% unemployment rate, having a higher payroll than us. They may have cut payroll in anticipation that attendance would go down, but it resulted in a mediocre/bad team, which in turn caused attendance to fall. Even though they technically managed to stay in the "race" most of the season, I think most fans realized this wasn't a very good team. I really hope the organization isn't thinking having Peavy for a full season is enough to make them contenders, because they desperately need some bats.