PDA

View Full Version : Should Ozzie be thrown under the bus for this mess?


captain54
09-18-2009, 11:08 AM
Not intended to be a "fire Ozzie" mandate, but a realistic look at whether or not these players have flat out stopped taking Ozzie seriously, or whether Ozzie's abilities to right a sinking ship are simply maxed out.

It's pretty obvious the collective funks this year have added up to one of the most frustrating seasons in memory, but the across the board failures in defense, clutch hitting, baserunning, relief pitching, etc. raise this basic question:

Ozzie is given 25 players to manage. Isn't his job as field manager to get the best possible performances out of those 25?

twentywontowin
09-18-2009, 11:13 AM
When you're given **** to work with, and all you can make are **** sandwiches, I think everyone needs to take a bite. Even Ozzie.

TomBradley72
09-18-2009, 11:15 AM
Both KW and Ozzie deserve the scrutiny...starting in the 2nd half of 2006, this has been a <.500 franchise for 2.5 seasons along with one 89 win/Division Championship season. 2010 is very important for both of them in my mind....but neither should be fired, etc. before we see how 2010 turns out.

Ozzie is heading towards his 7th season managing the club...it is possible that the players are starting to tune him out, etc...7 years will be a pretty long tenure in the job.

khan
09-18-2009, 11:19 AM
While the ingredients haven't always been good, the finished product hasn't been up to snuff, either.

Usually with a manager that's on the cusp of being on the hot seat, a coach or two will take the bullet first. So far, only Rock Raines [to my recollection] has taken said bullet, though I don't exactly remember why.

Zakath
09-18-2009, 11:24 AM
Both KW and Ozzie deserve the scrutiny...starting in the 2nd half of 2006, this has been a <.500 franchise for 2.5 seasons along with one 89 win/Division Championship season. 2010 is very important for both of them in my mind....but neither should be fired, etc. before we see how 2010 turns out.

Ozzie is heading towards his 7th season managing the club...it is possible that the players are starting to tune him out, etc...7 years will be a pretty long tenure in the job.

Only 5 managers in the majors have been in their current jobs longer, and he's tied with Terry Francona in Boston (both started in the 2004 season).

The others:
Bobby Cox (since 1990 in Atlanta)
Tony LaRussa (since 1996 in St. Louis)
Mike Scioscia (since 2000 in Anaheim)
Ron Gardenhire (since 2002 in Minnesota)
Eric Wedge (since 2003 in Cleveland)

captain54
09-18-2009, 11:27 AM
When you're given **** to work with, and all you can make are **** sandwiches, I think everyone needs to take a bite. Even Ozzie.

Sorry I don't buy this argument.

I'm sure Ozzie has plenty of input as to who gets to put on a Sox uniform. So I don't think he should be entirely absolved of responsiblity.

tstrike2000
09-18-2009, 11:28 AM
No.

Redus Redux
09-18-2009, 11:32 AM
Inconsistent defense, inconsistent bullpen, knucklehead baserunning are why it's out of Ozzie's hands

I can see why the temptation is there to blame Ozzie. Seeing as how we had starting pitching, a bounceback year from PK, career years from AJP and Pods... and a rookie miracle arrived.

But it's still not enough, you need more from guys like CQ and Dye. Maybe an earlier lineup change couldve been what Ozzie would second guess at this point. AJP was too hot all year to leave down in the lineup.

I would love to take every second half Dye atbat and give it to AJ.

I suppose Ozzie couldve pulled the trigger earlier on Kotsay playing more too. Even with all that though, I dont think we overcome the mental mistakes..... the only uplifting part is that a lot of them were Jayson Nix and by an OF that didnt have Rios around. AR and GB got a lot better in the IF during the last third of the year.

dickallen15
09-18-2009, 11:52 AM
I do know that "playing to the level of the competition" which many people say this team does, would be blamed on other former White Sox managers. KW and Ozzie are very fortunate that in 2005 a routine grounder rolled right through Tony Graffinino's legs and El Duque somehow pitched out of a bases loaded with nobody out jam, or they may be viewed very differently by a lot of people.

Lip Man 1
09-18-2009, 11:56 AM
Kenny takes a hit for putting a inferior group of players collectively on the field for the first six weeks.

Ozzie takes a hit because frankly some of his moves and match-up's simply haven't worked out.

BUT the players don't seem to be exerting the collective effort needed to win games either. This is where the notion of team leaders comes in. The guys who are acknowledged as the team leaders all do so by example. They aren't the type to call a team meeting, raise their voice or do something drastic to grab everyone's attention.

Now that can be overdone but there are times when a radical change is needed. The Sox need to get a few guys who when the team is playing like garbage, stand up, speak out and will their teammates to do something about it.

The Sox have no one of that personality on the club. Because of that fact Ozzie is the only one who appears able to do it and yes, the players as a group may be tuning him out. Still another reason to get some additional voices in that locker room.

Lip

wassagstdu
09-18-2009, 12:03 PM
BUT the players don't seem to be exerting the collective effort needed to win games either. This is where the notion of team leaders comes in. The guys who are acknowledged as the team leaders all do so by example. They aren't the type to call a team meeting, raise their voice or do something drastic to grab everyone's attention.

Now that can be overdone but there are times when a radical change is needed. The Sox need to get a few guys who when the team is playing like garbage, stand up, speak out and will their teammates to do something about it.

The Sox have no one of that personality on the club. Because of that fact Ozzie is the only one who appears able to do it and yes, the players as a group may be tuning him out. Still another reason to get some additional voices in that locker room.

A few weeks ago when Alexei missed a throw from AJ on a steal attempt, AJ got in Alexei's face in the dugout, prompting Ozzie, if I understood correctly, to toss a gum container on the field in anger -- not at Alexei's lousy play but at AJ for calling him on it. He said he is the only one who should criticize lousy or lazy play.

chisoxfanatic
09-18-2009, 12:10 PM
I think that almost everyone in the organization can be thrown under the bus here. Ozzie's made some extremely poor decisions, especially in managing the bullpen, so of course he should be held accountable for that.

twentywontowin
09-18-2009, 12:11 PM
Now that can be overdone but there are times when a radical change is needed. The Sox need to get a few guys who when the team is playing like garbage, stand up, speak out and will their teammates to do something about it.

The Sox have no one of that personality on the club. Because of that fact Ozzie is the only one who appears able to do it and yes, the players as a group may be tuning him out. Still another reason to get some additional voices in that locker room.

Lip

As much as people don't like them, you really do need a vocal leader in a clubhouse that is a player who can speak out and get the team going.

In 2005, we had a guy like that in Carl Everett. Surely not the best player by any means and a little off of his rocker, but that guy played with some heart for sure and would speak up when nobody else would. You can really rally around a guy like that regardless if he's a star player or not.

We also had a team dynamic then that you don't see now. 25 guys playing together with one purpose. They had fun together, Ozzie kept them loose and motivated, and each guy genuinely cared when the team or even the individual struggled. It just seems like this team flat out doesn't care and doesn't operate well as a group. If you can't get 25 guys to buy into your intentions, you're not going anywhere.

BigKlu59
09-18-2009, 12:12 PM
Kenny takes a hit for putting a inferior group
The Sox have no one of that personality on the club.

Because of that fact Ozzie is the only one who appears able to do it and yes, the players as a group may be tuning him out .

Still another reason to get some additional voices in that locker room.

Lip



Not a good thing on a Major League Ball Club. Usually precipitates a trip to Perdition to any season.... Arrgh Matey, a true Pale Hose mutiny.

BigKlu58

soxfanreggie
09-18-2009, 12:13 PM
The others:
Bobby Cox (since 1990 in Atlanta)
Tony LaRussa (since 1996 in St. Louis)
Mike Scioscia (since 2000 in Anaheim)
Ron Gardenhire (since 2002 in Minnesota)
Eric Wedge (since 2003 in Cleveland)

Out of all of those guys, Wedge is the only guy I can see getting fired. Cox will probably retire soon though.

I think a lot of what happens with the front office and coaching staffs will be determined based on what happens next year. KW will be held accountable for adding Peavy and Rios. Rios was a big risk ($-wise), and we'll see if it pays off. We might see one change in the coaching staff, and it might be Walker. Who knows at this point? We probably won't see anything until after the season, and they might let the coach decide that he wants a chance to "seek other opportunities".

JohnnyInnsbrook
09-18-2009, 12:18 PM
I do know that "playing to the level of the competition" which many people say this team does, would be blamed on other former White Sox managers. KW and Ozzie are very fortunate that in 2005 a routine grounder rolled right through Tony Graffinino's legs and El Duque somehow pitched out of a bases loaded with nobody out jam, or they may be viewed very differently by a lot of people.

But that didn't happen. Don't forget they also went wire to wire that season, won 90 games the next season, and made the playoffs again in 08. I don't think that's luck.

I think the only ones to blame are the players, mainly JD, Rios, Jenks and Linebrink. The season was a rebuilding season on the fly, however if the players played up to there potential the sox would be in the playoffs. Rios and Dye are something like 11 for 55 in the last 10 games, there is no excuse for that.

soxfanatlanta
09-18-2009, 12:27 PM
KW and Ozzie are very fortunate that in 2005 a routine grounder rolled right through Tony Graffinino's legs and El Duque somehow pitched out of a bases loaded with nobody out jam, or they may be viewed very differently by a lot of people.

Surely you jest.

I'd like to see what the team can do next year before I grab my torch and join the rest of the villagers to burn down his castle.

dickallen15
09-18-2009, 12:29 PM
As much as people don't like them, you really do need a vocal leader in a clubhouse that is a player who can speak out and get the team going.

In 2005, we had a guy like that in Carl Everett. Surely not the best player by any means and a little off of his rocker, but that guy played with some heart for sure and would speak up when nobody else would. You can really rally around a guy like that regardless if he's a star player or not.

We also had a team dynamic then that you don't see now. 25 guys playing together with one purpose. They had fun together, Ozzie kept them loose and motivated, and each guy genuinely cared when the team or even the individual struggled. It just seems like this team flat out doesn't care and doesn't operate well as a group. If you can't get 25 guys to buy into your intentions, you're not going anywhere.

The Sox also had Carl Everett when they fell apart in 2003.

gobears1987
09-18-2009, 12:31 PM
But that didn't happen. Don't forget they also went wire to wire that season, won 90 games the next season, and made the playoffs again in 08. I don't think that's luck.

I think the only ones to blame are the players, mainly JD, Rios, Jenks and Linebrink. The season was a rebuilding season on the fly, however if the players played up to there potential the sox would be in the playoffs. Rios and Dye are something like 11 for 55 in the last 10 games, there is no excuse for that.
Kenny deserves some of the blame as he gave us Contreras and Colon as our 4th and 5th starters. However, I am more than willing to forgive him based on his pick-ups of Pods, Freddy, and Peavy. The Sox should be set to roll in 2010. I would say this is basically 2004 once again with Colon and Contreras being Wright and Schoenweiss. Freddy is well... Freddy and we'll say Peavy is Contreras circa 2004.

Since 2009=2004, I'd like to hope that 2010=2005. With our rotation next year, I don't think that is as much of a pipe dream as people might think.

dickallen15
09-18-2009, 12:33 PM
But that didn't happen. Don't forget they also went wire to wire that season, won 90 games the next season, and made the playoffs again in 08. I don't think that's luck.

I think the only ones to blame are the players, mainly JD, Rios, Jenks and Linebrink. The season was a rebuilding season on the fly, however if the players played up to there potential the sox would be in the playoffs. Rios and Dye are something like 11 for 55 in the last 10 games, there is no excuse for that.

It just goes to show that it is KW's job to get the team to the playoffs, there anything can happen. Graffinino makes that play 999 times out of 1000. The way El Duque pitched the last half of 2005, the chances of him wiggling out of that jam with no harm may have been even less. If those longshots don't happen, and I'm as happy as anyone that they did, there's a very real possibility the White Sox don't make it out of the first round, but they wind up going 11-1. No WS, probably no Konerko or Thome or Vazquez or Buerhle extension. It can go on and on. When you get breaks, you must take advantage. The 2005 team did that better than any White Sox team of my lifetime.

Viva Medias B's
09-18-2009, 01:06 PM
Part of him should be.

captain54
09-18-2009, 01:14 PM
I do know that "playing to the level of the competition" which many people say this team does, would be blamed on other former White Sox managers. KW and Ozzie are very fortunate that in 2005 a routine grounder rolled right through Tony Graffinino's legs and El Duque somehow pitched out of a bases loaded with nobody out jam, or they may be viewed very differently by a lot of people.

This is an excellent point

Some other points:

1)Let's also not forget Colon being out for the Angels in the 2nd round, and an iffy call on AJ's dropped third strike.

2) the fact that we were VERY fortunate that Cleveland had a crappy first half of 2005 that allowed us to build that huge lead.

3) 2008. The Sox playing game 163 in Chicago, despite the fact that Minnesota beat us head to head that year.

the breaks vs non-breaks eventually all even out....

I heard Steve Stone on a TV show say that the Sox this year have tried to fit players into the roster with mediocre to below mediocre ability, hoping that they would miraculously be transformed. It has worked out in some cases, but the bullpen would be the biggest case for the argument that it hasn't.

You can only go the well so many times before it runs dry.

Tragg
09-18-2009, 01:15 PM
Having the manager taking responsibilty of the play of his team is not throwing him under the bus.

JB98
09-18-2009, 02:00 PM
I don't blame Ozzie for the woes of the bullpen. No matter who he brings in, chances are it's going to be the wrong choice. He has only one guy throwing the ball consistently well down there, and Thornton can't pitch everyday.

As far as managing the pitching staff, this year has been the antithesis of 2005 for Ozzie. He was never wrong during the World Series year, because everyone was throwing well and making him look like a genius. Whenever everyone is throwing poorly (like this year), the manager looks like a dunce.

My main criticism of Ozzie is how easily he's willing to sacrifice one of his 27 outs. The Sox bunt in situations where they should not be bunting far too often. In addition, they preach aggression on the bases to a team that has poor baserunning instincts. We just give away outs way too often, IMO.

FielderJones
09-18-2009, 02:06 PM
My main criticism of Ozzie is how easily he's willing to sacrifice one of his 27 outs. The Sox bunt in situations where they should not be bunting far too often. In addition, they preach aggression on the bases to a team that has poor baserunning instincts. We just give away outs way too often, IMO.

When runs don't score these things get magnified. We have the other problem of hitting into double plays with runners on first or first-and-second. Ozzie can't win. If the double play comes, we should have bunted or stolen. If the runner gets thrown out we should have waited for the big inning. Same with bunting to second-and-third, and then the next batter strikes out or grounds to a corner infielder. No matter what Ozzie calls, if the subsequent players don't execute he's a bum.

Ranger
09-18-2009, 02:37 PM
When runs don't score these things get magnified. We have the other problem of hitting into double plays with runners on first or first-and-second. Ozzie can't win. If the double play comes, we should have bunted or stolen. If the runner gets thrown out we should have waited for the big inning. Same with bunting to second-and-third, and then the next batter strikes out or grounds to a corner infielder. No matter what Ozzie calls, if the subsequent players don't execute he's a bum.

Bingo.

Lip Man 1
09-18-2009, 02:38 PM
Wassag:

True and that's part of the problem. It always means more coming from a teammate especially if the core group of players is tuning out the manager.

Dick:

Carl was also only on the team for 73 games. The Sox blew a two game lead with 18 games to go because of one field manager...Jerry Manual aka Manager Gandhi. (oh yes let's give some credit to Jose Paniagua too)

Lip

fram40
09-18-2009, 02:44 PM
This is an excellent point

2) the fact that we were VERY fortunate that Cleveland had a crappy first half of 2005 that allowed us to build that huge lead.

the breaks vs non-breaks eventually all even out....



Bull****. The reason Cleveland had a "crappy" first half is because we beat them ten out of thirteen games through July 17. The Sox record was 61 - 29 after the four game sweep in Cleveland - that's why the Sox had a huge lead.

I agree that breaks/non-breaks even out. But what does not even out is what you do with those breaks. After you get breaks you need to take advantage (ala Gooch hitting a home run after Graff's error; Crede's double after the dropped third strike; PK hitting a grand slam after JD gets HBP).

This year's team does not take advantage of the breaks they get, but the other teams do. If this team makes an error, you can be sure that the other team is scoring a run or two because of the error. When the Sox reach base due to an error or a dubious ball/strike call - the next guy up is sure to hit into a double play.

It is not just a few guys - it is the entire team. It is not just a few guys in the bullpen - it is the entire bullpen that sucks (save Thornton, perhaps, but he has blown a few as well). This year's team is just like every other Sox team I have seen in my 40+ years rooting.

Except for the 2005 team that took advantage of the breaks they got, that put teams away when they had the chance, that did not choke down the stretch but finished what they started.

I am not sure who is to blame - seems that there is enough to go around that everyone can grab some blame - GM, manager, coaches, and players. And I am not sure how you get the killer instinct for next year. Because if they do not figure out how to put teams away - next year will be as frustrating as this year has been.

dickallen15
09-18-2009, 02:57 PM
Wassag:

True and that's part of the problem. It always means more coming from a teammate especially if the core group of players is tuning out the manager.

Dick:

Carl was also only on the team for 73 games. The Sox blew a two game lead with 18 games to go because of one field manager...Jerry Manual aka Manager Gandhi. (oh yes let's give some credit to Jose Paniagua too)

Lip

Why is it when the 2003 team didn't play up to its potential and folded down the stretch, it was Jerry Manuel's fault, yet this team who even Brooks Boyer says plays to the level of its competition, when they fail, its the players? Its not consistent. I think Manuel got and still gets from Hawk a raw deal as far as blame goes.

If the Sox basically go into next season with the same roster with a couple of younger guys sprinkled in, nothing regarding their personality will change. They wanted to change the personality from 2007 when the acquired Swisher and Cabrera. They let those guys go, and the same personality returned.

Nellie_Fox
09-18-2009, 03:01 PM
even Brooks Boyer saysWhat does this even mean? Brooks Boyer is a PR guy, not a baseball genius.

dickallen15
09-18-2009, 03:02 PM
What does this even mean? Brooks Boyer is a PR guy, not a baseball genius.

When your PR guy says the team plays to the level of its competition, it drives home the nail. Even he can't spin it.

Nellie_Fox
09-18-2009, 03:03 PM
When your PR guy says the team plays to the level of its competition, it drives home the nail. Even he can't spin it.But it doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about.

dickallen15
09-18-2009, 03:09 PM
But it doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about.

All I'm saying is that if your PR guy is willing to go out on a limb and call out a team fault, its quite obviously a major fault, and I don't see why people are so excited about 2010 yet. I loved the Peavy trade, but is he alone really going to make the difference between a team winning 80 games or so and a WS? KW has some work to do.

dickallen15
09-18-2009, 03:24 PM
But it doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about.

And just because a guy is a scout, a manager, a coach, a GM, an owner, a player, that doesn't mean they know what they are talking about either.

delben91
09-18-2009, 03:32 PM
All I'm saying is that if your PR guy is willing to go out on a limb and call out a team fault, its quite obviously a major fault, and I don't see why people are so excited about 2010 yet. I loved the Peavy trade, but is he alone really going to make the difference between a team winning 80 games or so and a WS? KW has some work to do.

I heard Brooks thinks that everyone should have access to the outfield concourse regardless of where their ticket is for. :o:

GrandValleyBB10
09-18-2009, 04:05 PM
Guys, Regardless of who said what and who thinks they know what, it doesn't matter. What matters is that the sox are 3 games below 500 in a weak division under a horrible manager. I have played for some good coaches in my day and I have played for some horrible coaches in my day. A manager makes a huge difference in how the team perceives themselves and how they play, and more importantly the style of baseball that they play. I think the twins are still going to win this division despite losing morneau for the season, why? because of their manager. Leyland doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground, and all ozzie knows how to do is goof around in the dugout and argue a call once and while. he doesn't know how to play small ball or utilize the players that he has access too. Danks should have pitched a complete game last night, dye should not have been in the lineup, rios should start bunting or have him hit and run to get his confidence back because lets face it hitting is about 60 percent confidence and feelings. He is about as good of a manager as he speaks english. Get him out of town and let me or nancy fouce or however the hell u spell it, take over the damn team. We'd be in the playoffs right now! guarantee

delben91
09-18-2009, 04:20 PM
:hawk
"I love it when you analyze!"

captain54
09-18-2009, 04:27 PM
Bull****. The reason Cleveland had a "crappy" first half is because we beat them ten out of thirteen games through July 17. The Sox record was 61 - 29 after the four game sweep in Cleveland - that's why the Sox had a huge lead.



did you follow the White Sox in the first half of 2005?

Cleveland had half the roster on the DL for the majority of the first half..and they were the closest competition that year...Minny finished 4 games over .500 and overachieved that year. The White Sox had a 52-22 record against a horrible AL Central (KC lost 106 games that year), a losing record vs West, and were a handful of games above .500 vs the East

So were Ozzie and Kenny geniuses that year or were they the benefactor of some very favorable circumstances? You make the call

Crestani
09-18-2009, 04:32 PM
Guys, Regardless of who said what and who thinks they know what, it doesn't matter. What matters is that the sox are 3 games below 500 in a weak division under a horrible manager.

I don't know where you played ball and I don't care. But horrible manager...give me a break.
Ozzie won us a WS and it isn't his fault that the players given to him are not producing. You think Walter O'Malley could have done better with this group? Maybe Tony LaRussa? Forget it.

GrandValleyBB10
09-18-2009, 04:40 PM
I don't know where you played ball and I don't care. But horrible manager...give me a break.
Ozzie won us a WS and it isn't his fault that the players given to him are not producing. You think Walter O'Malley could have done better with this group? Maybe Tony LaRussa? Forget it.

Well, if "Ozzie" as you claimed won US the world series in 05, why cant he do that this year? all of a sudden its the players, but in 05 it was the coach? that doesn't make any sense

Second of all, what has jumped out at you over the past season that you would say "oh my god, ozzie is such a good manager. He deserves praise and thanks for how good of a job he does as manager." I think zero. Rather we as sox fans who actually watch the games sit back and say that well there was another waisted opportunity where we didnt bunt, we didnit' hit and run, we brought in linebrink when he should be in the minors, we brought in a reliver when we should have left in our starter, we played a crap lineup today because 5 guys needed a rest. It is countless errors and mistakes by your manager that can cost you 20-30 games over the course of the season and that is why the sox are 6 games back instead of 10 games up. Maybe watch a sox game and then come back and talk to me!

TomBradley72
09-18-2009, 04:45 PM
He is about as good of a manager as he speaks english. Get him out of town and let me or nancy fouce or however the hell u spell it, take over the damn team. We'd be in the playoffs right now! guarantee

"Nancy Fouce?" "Waisted opportunity?"

Have you been drinking? You're giving Ozzie a run for his money as far as english goes.

jabrch
09-18-2009, 04:50 PM
There's plenty of blame to go around. Guillen deserves some. Williams deserves some. But I'd put more of it on the shoulders of the players. They have the bats and balls.

Crestani
09-18-2009, 04:51 PM
Well, if "Ozzie" as you claimed won US the world series in 05, why cant he do that this year? all of a sudden its the players, but in 05 it was the coach? that doesn't make any sense

Who said it was the Coach? Or do you mean manager?
In any event, the players won in '05 just as they are losing in '09.

Managers have always received too much credit and too much blame IMO.

GrandValleyBB10
09-18-2009, 04:56 PM
You failed to answer my question...if you agree completely with ozzie's coaching strategies and if they are indeed those same stratgies that won HIM the world series in 05, what has he done as a MANAGER that has stood out in your mind that has helped the team win games this year? It could be anything from lineup changes, to benching a player, to helping a player reach his potential (much like dye has done in the second half). Im just asking if you dont think he deserves the blame, then he must have done something that im missing here.

jabrch
09-18-2009, 04:56 PM
There's plenty of blame to go around. Guillen deserves some. Williams deserves some. But I'd put more of it on the shoulders of the players. They have the bats and balls.

Between Wise, Fields, BA and Rios, that's about 600 ABs - most of which completely underperformed any reasonable expectations. Sure - Williams, OG and Walker deserve some blame for those 4 (and others) not hitting. But blame the players. Same for Alexei's SS glove....just not good enough.

jabrch
09-18-2009, 04:58 PM
You failed to answer my question...if you agree completely with ozzie's coaching strategies and if they are indeed those same stratgies that won HIM the world series in 05, what has he done as a MANAGER that has stood out in your mind that has helped the team win games this year? It could be anything from lineup changes, to benching a player, to helping a player reach his potential (much like dye has done in the second half). Im just asking if you dont think he deserves the blame, then he must have done something that im missing here.

I don't think anyone would agree that strategies won the WS. Players won it. What was his strategy? He told the SP to all throw CGs as much as possible? He told Pods to swing for the fences?

Come on GV...

GrandValleyBB10
09-18-2009, 05:01 PM
Between Wise, Fields, BA and Rios, that's about 600 ABs - most of which completely underperformed any reasonable expectations. Sure - Williams, OG and Walker deserve some blame for those 4 (and others) not hitting. But blame the players. Same for Alexei's SS glove....just not good enough.

You are absolutely right, but that is the surface problem. There is a deeper root to that problem and that is the coaching staff. You cant tell me that this team doesn't have more talent than they had in 05 offensively...they are underperfomring and there has to be an underlying problem (the entire coaching staff). Dye is half season slump and still playing almost every day, rios is in a slump and they aren't doing anything to try and get him out of it, no bunting, no hitting and running, no bunting for hits, NOTHING!! those are the problems..what are they working on in the batting cage? what are they working on as far as him and dye go mentally? Rios can absolutely fly, why not bunt? why not do something to try and get him going offensively...they do nothing as a staff to help these guys during the game to gain that confidence and plate presence back...its hurtful for me to watch inning after inning go by and we leave 2-3 guys on base...it shouldn't take 3 hits an inning to score a run, but we do a great job with that, because our at bats are so unproductive it makes me sick

jabrch
09-18-2009, 05:03 PM
So were Ozzie and Kenny geniuses that year or were they the benefactor of some very favorable circumstances? You make the call

Those are not the only choices.

How about - they are both good enough to guide an organization, but as with every other manager, they still rely on players to play and can't make more of the players than they are.

I have no problem with KW and OG. And at the same time, if they get fired (one or both) I will have no problem assuming their replacements are not completely new to baseball. A field manager is very overrated. A GM is marginally overrated.

Players play. They win or lose it. Field managers impact on a game is overrated.

GrandValleyBB10
09-18-2009, 05:04 PM
I don't think anyone would agree that strategies won the WS. Players won it. What was his strategy? He told the SP to all throw CGs as much as possible? He told Pods to swing for the fences?

Come on GV...

I'm not the one that said specifically that ozzie won the world series in 05..im agreeing that it was the players, but ur boy said that ozzie won the world series in 05 and its not his fault that they are losing right now..every starting pitcher should go out thinking they are going to throw a CG...but if we pull our starter after 8 innings when he's cruising and lose the game?? who does that fall on

wassagstdu
09-18-2009, 05:06 PM
Ozzie proved in 2005 that he can manage a World Series championship team, and though he did not win it, the team did, I cannot say that about other any Sox manager in my lifetime.

Crestani
09-18-2009, 05:11 PM
You failed to answer my question...if you agree completely with ozzie's coaching strategies and if they are indeed those same stratgies that won HIM the world series in 05, what has he done as a MANAGER that has stood out in your mind that has helped the team win games this year? It could be anything from lineup changes, to benching a player, to helping a player reach his potential (much like dye has done in the second half). Im just asking if you dont think he deserves the blame, then he must have done something that im missing here.


Because IMHO Ozzie would have been just as vilified had he left Danks in the game to finish it and Danks gives up two HR's. So, by bringing in his closer, he did what all managers do, trust his closer.
If you follow baseball and the White Sox much, you should remember a couple of weeks ago when Nathan served up two, two out HR's to the Sox with two strikes on the batters. It Happens, get over it and quit blaming Ozzie.

GrandValleyBB10
09-18-2009, 05:12 PM
I completely disagree with you guys that a manager has nothing to do with the outcome of the games. Look at the twins for the better part of the last decade..you cant tell me that gardenhire doesn't have anything to do with how well those guys play. The are fundamentally sound both offensively and defensively. The bunt, they run, and they field. They make you beat them, they dont beat themselves. He has that team prepared to play every single game. Besides Maur and Morneau, they dont have many guys that other teams would even be interested in, but they win games. I'd have to say thats the manager. I'd like to see ozzie coach that team for a year and see how fast that franchise burns to ashes

jabrch
09-18-2009, 05:14 PM
There is a deeper root to that problem and that is the coaching staff.

I don't agree. I have no problem with this coaching staff. I think the impact of a coaching staff is overrated.

You cant tell me that this team doesn't have more talent than they had in 05 offensively

I'm not sure I agree with you. Dye 05 was better than Dye 09. PK 05 was better than PK 09. Crede 05 was similar to Fields09+Beckham09 when you sum them up. Alexei vs Uribe? Getz vs Iguchi? Other than CF (and most agree that Rowand was overrated), where is the great difference?

...they are underperfomring and there has to be an underlying problem

They have aged? Some aren't as good as you think? Some are slumping? Injuries? Or...the coaching staff. Some of the blame should go there - but not the majority of it.

Dye is half season slump and still playing almost every day,

So I assume you arent saying that the slump is something the coaching staff is responsible for - JD owns that.

rios is in a slump and they aren't doing anything to try and get him out of it, no bunting, no hitting and running, no bunting for hits, NOTHING!!

Um...first off, I don't believe you know what they are or are not doing with him. Second, if you are banking on BUNTING as what gets Rios out of a slump, and blaming the coaches for not enough bunting, then I think you are way off base. If he were bunting more, there would be people bitching about that. Rios wasn't good because of his bunting - so bunting isn't the fix.

what are they working on in the batting cage? what are they working on as far as him and dye go mentally?

Since you are saying that they are doing nothing, you tell me what they do? Or do you really not have a clue what they do with him in the cage? Just because he isn't hitting, doesn't mean they aren't doing anything.

Rios can absolutely fly, why not bunt?

This again? It's not a fix to "not hitting".

why not do something to try and get him going offensively...they do nothing as a staff to help these guys during the game to gain that confidence and plate presence back

So you say...I don't believe that is factual.

...its hurtful for me to watch inning after inning go by and we leave 2-3 guys on base...it shouldn't take 3 hits an inning to score a run, but we do a great job with that, because our at bats are so unproductive it makes me sick

If we are getting 3 hits per inning, we are doing fine. And we have gotten rid of some of the guys who required 3 hits to score...and I'm sure more will be done...but that's not easy to do in season and it isn't the coaching staff's fault anyhow. If this staff is getting 2-3 guys on base, "inning after inning", we'd be doing just fine. The problem is the hitters aren't getting on base enough...and then aren't hitting. And they aren't catching the ball....and our 5th starter has sucked. And our 4th hasn't been all that great either.

I'd blame the players. You feel free to have your own OPINION on who is culpable.

jabrch
09-18-2009, 05:17 PM
but ur boy said that ozzie won the world series in 05

*** are you talking about? My boy? Try again...I have no "boys" except my 2 year old - and he isn't posting.


but if we pull our starter after 8 innings when he's cruising and lose the game?? who does that fall on

Simple.... THE GUY WHO CAME IN AND GAVE UP 2 HRs. Nearly every manager in baseball makes that move. There's nothing wrong with it - except the result. Are you serious? You are blaming Guillen for bringing in his closer in the 9th in a save situation? I'm about ready to give up on you if this is your logic...

dickallen15
09-18-2009, 05:18 PM
Because IMHO Ozzie would have been just as vilified had he left Danks in the game to finish it and Danks gives up two HR's. So, by bringing in his closer, he did what all managers do, trust his closer.
If you follow baseball and the White Sox much, you should remember a couple of weeks ago when Nathan served up two, two out HR's to the Sox with two strikes on the batters. It Happens, get over it and quit blaming Ozzie.


Considering how much Ozzie is perceived as a guy who doesn't manage by the book but rather by the gut, he sure does take the safe way out the majority of the time. He's not going to get criticized for using Jenks because he is the closer. The other night Thornton is cruising along with 2 out in the 8th and a RH batter comes up, so Ozzie brings in Pena. Again an unneccessary move, but one that will draw very little criticism because its what "all managers do." Maybe its time for him to think outside the box a little bit. Just think, someone somewhere down the line made 100 pitches some baseball biblical number. What if that same person made it 150 pitches? The game would be a lot different today. Someone came up with a 1 inning closer that came in just about every time you had a 3 run or less lead in the ninth. If it was 4 runs, they don't use him. Maybe Ozzie can be a guy that comes up with a new system.

jabrch
09-18-2009, 05:22 PM
I completely disagree with you guys that a manager has nothing to do with the outcome of the games.

(I believe) Nobody said that.

Look at the twins for the better part of the last decade..you cant tell me that gardenhire doesn't have anything to do with how well those guys play.

Nobody said that either.


The are fundamentally sound both offensively and defensively. The bunt, they run, and they field. They make you beat them, they dont beat themselves. He has that team prepared to play every single game.

So credit goes to the manager alone? How about the organization? The coaches? The scouts? Oh - and the players themselves?

There is plenty of credit to go around for the Twins team that always stays competitive. But you can't lump it all on Gardenhire anymore than you should give all the blame to Guillen.

Besides Maur and Morneau, they dont have many guys that other teams would even be interested in,

That's untrue.

but they win games. I'd have to say thats the manager.

I'd have to say you are wrong if you are proposing that Gardenhire should get more credit than the players.

I'd like to see ozzie coach that team for a year and see how fast that franchise burns to ashes

because Ozzie doesn't bunt enought? Gardy is the bunting manager? Bull****...

a manager is worth a few wins or losses - but not many - and not predictable year to year. Some years a guy will be +. Others -. Net - give me good players over Ron Gardenhire.

captain54
09-18-2009, 05:25 PM
Those are not the only choices.

How about - they are both good enough to guide an organization, but as with every other manager, they still rely on players to play and can't make more of the players than they are.


If that's the case, then you could put any manager (or me or you for that matter) at the helm of the LA Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, or Cardinals and you would have the same result, because ultimately, it's the players.

The bigger question is...if a player is underperforming, or if a team is underperforming, you have to ask the question...Why? In the case of the White Sox, its my strong suspicion that players are brought in that simply aren't fundamentally sound, yet Kenny Williams and Ozzie are outraged and shocked when we lose games because of bad fundamentals.

This is a problem that has been going back to the last half of 06....

I remember games in Minny where Gardenhire took his whole team on the field for a public lecture after a particularly bad fundamental day of baseball....Of course, I'm not privvy to what goes on before and after games, but I don't remember ever seeing that same scenario occur as long as I can remember Ozzie as manager.

GrandValleyBB10
09-18-2009, 05:28 PM
If that's the case, then you could put any manager (or me or you for that matter) at the helm of the LA Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, or Cardinals and you would have the same result, because ultimately, it's the players.

The bigger question is...if a player is underperforming, or if a team is underperforming, you have to ask the question...Why? In the case of the White Sox, its my strong suspicion that players are brought in that simply aren't fundamentally sound, yet Kenny Williams and Ozzie are outraged and shocked when we lose games because of bad fundamentals.

This is a problem that has been going back to the last half of 06....

I remember games in Minny where Gardenhire took his whole team on the field for a public lecture after a particularly bad fundamental day of baseball....Of course, I'm not privvy to what goes on before and after games, but I don't remember ever seeing that same scenario occur as long as I can remember Ozzie as manager.


I agree with this completely..from the backlash I have gotten on here tonight, everyone is saying that the manger has no field responsiblities and that it is basically all the players. Well in that case I guess we can just cut guillen's salary for next year and sign another player

jabrch
09-18-2009, 05:31 PM
If that's the case, then you could put any manager (or me or you for that matter) at the helm of the LA Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, or Cardinals and you would have the same result, because ultimately, it's the players.

Not the exact same result...but the difference would likely be marginal. +/- a few wins. Ultimately the execution lies squarely in the hands of the players.


I remember games in Minny where Gardenhire took his whole team on the field for a public lecture after a particularly bad fundamental day of baseball....Of course, I'm not privvy to what goes on before and after games, but I don't remember ever seeing that same scenario occur as long as I can remember Ozzie as manager.

Everyone has different tactics. Do you not think Guillen has made this point all year in his own way? So it hasn't worked much - is it Guillen's fault? Or is it the guys with the bats, balls and gloves? I say a little of OG and a lot on the players. They ultimately have the control. Not OG.

dickallen15
09-18-2009, 05:33 PM
If that's the case, then you could put any manager (or me or you for that matter) at the helm of the LA Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, or Cardinals and you would have the same result, because ultimately, it's the players.

The bigger question is...if a player is underperforming, or if a team is underperforming, you have to ask the question...Why? In the case of the White Sox, its my strong suspicion that players are brought in that simply aren't fundamentally sound, yet Kenny Williams and Ozzie are outraged and shocked when we lose games because of bad fundamentals.

This is a problem that has been going back to the last half of 06....

I remember games in Minny where Gardenhire took his whole team on the field for a public lecture after a particularly bad fundamental day of baseball....Of course, I'm not privvy to what goes on before and after games, but I don't remember ever seeing that same scenario occur as long as I can remember Ozzie as manager.

A prime example of this is Alex Rios. Kenny called the team a bunch of underachievers. Wasn't the main reason Rios was available for no players because he was an underachiever? He also talked about how he expected the defense to struggle. That's not how I remember it, but if you expect your defense to struggle and still expect to win, unless you have the 1927 Yankees line-up, I don't think you are being very realistic.

As for Minnesota, that was started under Tom Kelly for whom Gardenhire coached and learned. He had his team take infield and outfield AFTER a game they WON because he wasn't happy with the fundamentals. I believe the team they beat that night was the White Sox.

jabrch
09-18-2009, 05:34 PM
I agree with this completely..from the backlash I have gotten on here tonight, everyone is saying that the manger has no field responsiblities and that it is basically all the players.

****ing ****...don't you read? Don't you pay once bit of attention to the dialogue you are in? Nobody said the manager "has no field responsibilities". Are you this dense?


Well in that case I guess we can just cut guillen's salary for next year and sign another player

Are you serious? Or is this just an act to troll for an arguement? I'm guessing you aren't this big or a buffoon and you successfully trolled for an arguement and got me to bite.

dickallen15
09-18-2009, 05:39 PM
Not the exact same result...but the difference would likely be marginal. +/- a few wins. Ultimately the execution lies squarely in the hands of the players.




Everyone has different tactics. Do you not think Guillen has made this point all year in his own way? So it hasn't worked much - is it Guillen's fault? Or is it the guys with the bats, balls and gloves? I say a little of OG and a lot on the players. They ultimately have the control. Not OG.

Ultimately managers probably don't make much of a difference. Maybe some year they do something that fires a team up and propels them to a place they have never been, but Ozzie is utimately no dumber than he was in 2005, just like Jerry Manuel was no dumber when he was fired than he was when he won a division with a very low payroll and a lot of youngsters. You just have to wonder if Ozzie has anything left in his bag of tricks. I don't think he will ever get fired, but they need to change the roster pretty significantly if they expect to play a different way and play successfully.

GrandValleyBB10
09-18-2009, 05:45 PM
****ing ****...don't you read? Don't you pay once bit of attention to the dialogue you are in? Nobody said the manager "has no field responsibilities". Are you this dense?




Are you serious? Or is this just an act to troll for an arguement? I'm guessing you aren't this big or a buffoon and you successfully trolled for an arguement and got me to bite.

actually buddy over on page four this is a direct quote from you "A field manager is very overrated. A GM is marginally overrated.

Players play. They win or lose it. Field managers impact on a game is overrated."

This is why i get upset, because you are taking all of the blame off of guillen. Im not saying he deserves every ounce of it, but he deserves enough to lose his job. This team is far to talented to be playing sub 500 baseball. Im not trying to pick a fight, im not trying to get you guys upset because I think we all want the same thing here, but im telling you that a manager has a lot more to do with the outcome than you think he does

spawn
09-18-2009, 05:45 PM
Are you serious? Or is this just an act to troll for an arguement? I'm guessing you aren't this big or a buffoon and you successfully trolled for an arguement and got me to bite.
Settle down. You're pretty damn close to a personal attack here. You've made your point. Just walk away.

spawn
09-18-2009, 05:50 PM
This is why i get upset, because you are taking all of the blame off of guillen. Im not saying he deserves every ounce of it, but he deserves enough to lose his job. This team is far to talented to be playing sub 500 baseball. Im not trying to pick a fight, im not trying to get you guys upset because I think we all want the same thing here, but im telling you that a manager has a lot more to do with the outcome than you think he does
I can't believe I'm wading into this bull**** of an argument. Just because he said a field manager's impact on a game is overrated doesn't mean he's absolving Ozzie of all the blame. I hope jabrch doesn't mind that I'm speaking for him here, but you're putting words in his mouth. At the end of the day, the players are the ones who should hold most of the responsibilty for their play, good or bad. They swing the the bat. They pitch. They catch. They throw. This ****storm of a season falls mostly on the shoulders of these players. Ozzie can be held accountable for a lot of questionable decisions he's made through the season. Ultimately, it's the players that make the difference.

GrandValleyBB10
09-18-2009, 05:55 PM
And again, I apoligize, but im not saying that the players dont have to look themselves in the mirror at the end of the day and say that they should have done better, which frankly the entire team has been underachieveing the entire season. They have had a few good stretches along the way, and some really bad ones, but in my honest opinion I believe that better play should be demanded, not poor play tolerated. Way too many errors defensively, and way to many good hitters just having horrible at bat after horrible at bat. There is plenty of blame to go around and aparently nobody agrees where more than half of it should go..sorry

jabrch
09-18-2009, 05:59 PM
I can't believe I'm wading into this bull**** of an argument. Just because he said a field manager's impact on a game is overrated doesn't mean he's absolving Ozzie of all the blame. I hope jabrch doesn't mind that I'm speaking for him here, but you're putting words in his mouth. At the end of the day, the players are the ones who should hold most of the responsibilty for their play, good or bad. They swing the the bat. They pitch. They catch. They throw. This ****storm of a season falls mostly on the shoulders of these players. Ozzie can be held accountable for a lot of questionable decisions he's made through the season. Ultimately, it's the players that make the difference.

Well said - entirely...

This is a horsecrap arguement - and I am ashamed I fell for this trolling. There can be no way GV is serious about this - so all I can assume is that he is trolling for an arguement - I fell for it hook line and sinker. And yes - I will take your advice and walk away.

RANDY WILES
09-18-2009, 06:48 PM
Having the manager taking responsibilty of the play of his team is not throwing him under the bus.


I agree with this quote---there are not a lot of good organizations where he would survive.

By the way, Linebrink has gone from being my least favorite of the current Sox, to my least favorite Sox player of all time, to my least favorite professional athlete of all time, to my second least favorite person in the recorded history of the world (Hitler, Judas, Atilla The Hun, Richard Nixon, Barry Manilow and all those other guys are tied for first).

thomas35forever
09-18-2009, 06:52 PM
I'll blame KW for not addressing some of the needs in the offseason, the bullpen in particular. I'll blame Ozzie a little too for sending underachievers out there night after night. That by no means means their jobs are in jeopardy. The most blame falls on the players for not playing up to their potential. Whatever mentality they have right now needs to change by next season or we'll see even more of them gone.

RANDY WILES
09-18-2009, 07:05 PM
Thinking a little more about Ozzie and the performance of the team since July '06. I would opine that Ozzie is probably irrelevant.

In MLB, as opposed to NFL, how many managers really make a difference. I think the team might have done better under LaRussa or Gardenhire----certainly would have done worse under Jerry Manuel or Terry Bevington-----but generally he's an average manager.

JB98
09-18-2009, 07:44 PM
When runs don't score these things get magnified. We have the other problem of hitting into double plays with runners on first or first-and-second. Ozzie can't win. If the double play comes, we should have bunted or stolen. If the runner gets thrown out we should have waited for the big inning. Same with bunting to second-and-third, and then the next batter strikes out or grounds to a corner infielder. No matter what Ozzie calls, if the subsequent players don't execute he's a bum.

Ahh....but I don't talk out of both sides of my mouth. I don't like the bunt, even when it works.

1908<2005
09-18-2009, 09:51 PM
Nope. Ozzie is a top 10 manager in baseball.

captain54
09-18-2009, 09:55 PM
Nope. Ozzie is a top 10 manager in baseball.

Interesting...and on what do you base your criteria?

PaleHoser
09-18-2009, 10:26 PM
Yes. And the bus should back over him after it runs him over.

First and foremost, it's the manager's job to put his players in the best position to succeed. Slumps are inevitable, but to have an entire team go cold for extended periods is all on him.

The bench was pathetic the first half of the year, but KW has given him help. He just hasn't done anything with it.

I'm not saying he should be fired, but I would put him on a very short leash.

HangWiffum
09-18-2009, 10:51 PM
I agree with this quote---there are not a lot of good organizations where he would survive.

By the way, Linebrink has gone from being my least favorite of the current Sox, to my least favorite Sox player of all time, to my least favorite professional athlete of all time, to my second least favorite person in the recorded history of the world (Hitler, Judas, Atilla The Hun, Richard Nixon, Barry Manilow and all those other guys are tied for first).

I would assume Alex Rios is gonna make a run at that spot in the next couple years.

Nellie_Fox
09-19-2009, 12:04 AM
This is why i get upset, because you are taking all of the blame off of guillen.Why does the opinion of another poster get you upset? Seriously. Neither you nor he has any say in who the manager of the White Sox is. It's just an opinion.

Too many people think the answer after every bad season is to fire the manager. Ozzie has had more winning seasons than losing seasons, and none of us has seen that since Al Lopez. I hope he sticks around. However, my opinion doesn't mean a thing in deciding who will be the manager of the Sox. A general manager who starts listening to the fans won't be around long.

soxfanreggie
09-19-2009, 12:13 AM
Ozzie has had more winning seasons than losing seasons, and none of us has seen that since Al Lopez.

Nellie, meet the following White Sox Managers post-Lopez that had more winning seasons than losing seasons since Al Lopez (included are portions of the seasons they were manager but had a winning record during their time at the helm that season).

Eddie Stankey: 2 winning seasons, 1 losing season
Tony LaRussa: 4 winning seasons, 3 losing seasons, 1 at .500
Jeff Torberg: 2 winning seasons, 0 losing seasons
Gene Lamont: 3 winning seasons, 1 losing season
Terry Bevington (although I hate to put him on here): 2 winning seasons, 1 losing season
Jerry Manuel: 3 winning seasons, 2 losing seasons, 1 at .500

BainesHOF
09-19-2009, 12:13 AM
The talent was there, even with all of its faults, to win a weak division this season.

Why do the White Sox often fall off a cliff in the second half of the season in recent years?

Nellie_Fox
09-19-2009, 12:18 AM
Nellie, meet the following White Sox Managers post-Lopez that had more winning seasons than losing seasons (included are portions of the seasons they were manager but had a winning record during their time at the helm that season).

Eddie Stankey: 2 winning seasons, 1 losing season
Tony LaRussa: 4 winning seasons, 3 losing seasons, 1 at .500
Jeff Torberg: 2 winning seasons, 0 losing seasons
Gene Lamont: 3 winning seasons, 1 losing season
Terry Bevington (although I hate to put him on here): 2 winning seasons, 1 losing season
Jerry Manuel: 3 winning seasons, 2 losing seasons, 1 at .500I'm not going to go look up how many "partial" seasons you're counting, or how "partial" they are, but Ozzie now has five complete seasons, is 4-1 coming into this year. Yes, he's probably going to be 4-2 soon, but seriously, that's still the best performance of any manager since Lopez.

JB98
09-19-2009, 12:55 AM
The talent was there, even with all of its faults, to win a weak division this season.

Why do the White Sox often fall off a cliff in the second half of the season in recent years?

Because the hitters always fall off the cliff in August and September.

A. Cavatica
09-19-2009, 09:25 AM
I'm not going to go look up how many "partial" seasons you're counting, or how "partial" they are, but Ozzie now has five complete seasons, is 4-1 coming into this year. Yes, he's probably going to be 4-2 soon, but seriously, that's still the best performance of any manager since Lopez.

Torborg - 2-0 with less talent

voodoochile
09-19-2009, 09:28 AM
Since 7/6/2006 the White Sox are 17 games below .500.

And have been in 3 pennant hunts and won a division with their best hitter and one of their starters on the DL...

I put it in easy to read text...:rolleyes:

TommyJohn
09-19-2009, 09:47 AM
And have been in 3 pennant hunts and won a division with their best hitter and one of their starters on the DL...

I put it in easy to read text...:rolleyes:
I can't get the original post, so I am quoting yours. But July 6, 2006? That is so freaking aribitrary. Since April 4, 2006 they are 11 games over .500. Since April of 2008 they are also 11 games over .500. Since April 4, 2005 they are 47 games over .500. Etc. etc. Once again, I am quoting your post because the original seems to be gone. I am on your side.

kufram
09-19-2009, 10:57 AM
One of things I love about baseball is that the manager can win the game, which means he can also lose the game. But this is only true in a tight game where he makes the right/wrong call in a crucial situation, i.e send the runner, double steal, pitch out, swing on 3-0, etc. there are masters of those situations and then there are the rest. I can live with Ozzie's game management most of the time although I think if there is a real fault it would be gauging when to pull the starter. but it is his call to make... I couldn't do it.

Most of the time a manager's greatest effect on the game is tactical, i.e....who is playing and who is not, matchups, who to pinch hit and when, etc...then it is up to the players to perform.

I've been wondering all year whether or not there was a locker room spirit with this team, or just players on a field. Good baseball teams pick each other up, cover the last guys mistake, and you can see it in a team. I have not seen that this year very much except for when Pods arrived. I thought then that it would come together at some point. It dissappeared again. I think the problem may be in the clubhouse even more than on the field.

TomBradley72
09-19-2009, 11:00 AM
I think it's reasonable to question whether or not Ozzie's effectiveness as the White Sox manager may have run it's course. I don't think it means he's a bad manager...but sometimes after 6 seasons...the message simply doesn't work any more. The White Sox win/loss record doesn't bother me as much as "the way" they are losing...lifeless and without fight.

If 2010 goes the same way as 2009 it will be time for a change.

Just as a data point, over the last three seasons (2007-2009), the White Sox winning percentage is .493. Terry Bevington's: .509.

Any manager (and GM for that matter) would be under scrutiny after 3 seasons of combined <.500 results and a 1-3 record in the post season.

TommyJohn
09-19-2009, 11:15 AM
I think it's reasonable to question whether or not Ozzie's effectiveness as the White Sox manager may have run it's course. I don't think it means he's a bad manager...but sometimes after 6 seasons...the message simply doesn't work any more. The White Sox win/loss record doesn't bother me as much as "the way" they are losing...lifeless and without fight.

If 2010 goes the same way as 2009 it will be time for a change.

Just as a data point, over the last three seasons (2007-2009), the White Sox winning percentage is .493. Terry Bevington's: .509.

Any manager (and GM for that matter) would be under scrutiny after 3 seasons of combined <.500 results and a 1-3 record in the post season.Please don't bring up Bevington. Understand that he took a talented White Sox team in 1996 and ran it right into the ground with his boneheaded boneheadedness. Granted Guillen is capable of doing same, but the 2009 team isn't as good as the 1996 team.

And please, everyone who thinks that Guillen will be fired in the near-future, he is signed until 2012 and is one of Reinsdorf's favorites. He has the job for life if he wants it. The only thing that will get him fired is a PR blunder of major proportions, like comments that just cannot go unpunished. Barring that, he is sticking around.

captain54
09-19-2009, 11:15 AM
And have been in 3 pennant hunts and won a division with their best hitter and one of their starters on the DL...

I put it in easy to read text...:rolleyes:


Despite your big bold type, your argument is flat and lifeless, and if the Sox were in any other division in MLB, it would be totally and completely irrelevant

Maybe we should bring back Cliff Politte because he has a great 05....Maybe we should bring back Jerry Manuel because he won a division in 00...Maybe we should bring back Bobby Thigpen because he broke a record for saves in the early 90's....hey, I remember when "the Deacon" had in game winning hit in 93'..lelts bring him back too.

Players are routinely launched for non performance...Josh Fields, Brian Anderson, MacDougal, etc...the list goes on...the same should apply for management..While you can't launch an organization, you can certainly overhaul it...Unfortunately, sports is a "what have you done for me lately" system of attrition

Domeshot17
09-19-2009, 11:25 AM
Ozzie needs to be put on the hotseat next year. If we start out slow again, then fire him.

He got the team he wanted this year. He got to pick who stayed, who went, who got sent down, who got waived etc. Williams has said as much that hes given ozzie almost full control this year of his 25 man roster. Ozzie got younger, got faster. Ozzie got more athletic.

This was a team built to win 1 way only, Ozzieball. It has failed miserably. The pitching has been pretty bad (Ozzieball relies on pitching). The defense has been the biggest joke in the AL Central this year (how many times a year do we hear ozzie preach fundamentals and how fundamentally sound his teams WILL be). The Baserunning has cost us a handful of games (another fundamentally sound trait of Ozzieball) and the sluggers and leaders of this time have vanished or packed it in since August.

The truth is, Ozzie is not a good, not even average, in game manager. He overthinks offensive spots with poorly timed hit and runs or bunts, he has no clue with the bullpen outside of put Jenks in in the 9th. Plenty of very good managers have been like this. Ozzie is just one of them. His strength in managing has always been preparation and inspiration. He keeps control of his clubhouse and his guys are ready to play. Neither of those are true this year. The way the players are responding to his "threats and blowups", It looks like a bunch of teenagers who figured out their dad's bark is worse than his bite.

Next year, with the pitching staff we have, if we aren't in first place or really in the race by the all star break, we need a new manager.

Domeshot17
09-19-2009, 11:34 AM
Despite your big bold type, your argument is flat and lifeless, and if the Sox were in any other division in MLB, it would be totally and completely irrelevant

Maybe we should bring back Cliff Politte because he has a great 05....Maybe we should bring back Jerry Manuel because he won a division in 00...Maybe we should bring back Bobby Thigpen because he broke a record for saves in the early 90's....hey, I remember when "the Deacon" had in game winning hit in 93'..lelts bring him back too.

Players are routinely launched for non performance...Josh Fields, Brian Anderson, MacDougal, etc...the list goes on...the same should apply for management..While you can't launch an organization, you can certainly overhaul it...Unfortunately, sports is a "what have you done for me lately" system of attrition

This is how I feel. I think Ozzie is a good manager, but I don't like the skewed results. I view 2006 as a complete failure because we didn't make the playoffs. 2007 was a complete failure, 2008 was fun for a week or so, but really, backing into the playoffs ans going 1 and done isn't something that screams pride. I would not call this year "being in a pennant race". We were below 500 almost the entire time, and everytime a game mattered we did not win it. Instead of hanging tough and fighting back, getting within striking distance like the Twins are doing, this team put it its tail between its legs.

I know it BOTHERS Ozzie to see this, but his JOB is to not let this happen. I dont measure success by this team fighting back to win 82 games. Get to the playoffs and compete.

I wouldn't fire him this offseason, but I would say next year is put up or shut up time, and anything short of 90+ wins, a playoff apperance, and growth from our young players is firable at this point.

soxfanreggie
09-19-2009, 11:52 AM
I'm not going to go look up how many "partial" seasons you're counting, or how "partial" they are, but Ozzie now has five complete seasons, is 4-1 coming into this year. Yes, he's probably going to be 4-2 soon, but seriously, that's still the best performance of any manager since Lopez.

I wasn't saying that Ozzie hasn't had the most success (he will also be here longer than most Sox managers as well). I was just trying to point out the other Sox managers since Lopez who fit the criteria you mentioned. Even if I remove partial seasons or only count a season if they manage over half of it, there are still people on that list.

SI1020
09-19-2009, 11:54 AM
I can't get the original post, so I am quoting yours. But July 6, 2006? That is so freaking aribitrary. Since April 4, 2006 they are 11 games over .500. Since April of 2008 they are also 11 games over .500. Since April 4, 2005 they are 47 games over .500. Etc. etc. Once again, I am quoting your post because the original seems to be gone. I am on your side. Glad to see someone else get beat up over this. I pretty much said the same thing. The Sox were 56-29 in 06 going into a three game set with the Red Sox before the All Star break. Boston took two out of three and I use the same aribitrary time frame. The Sox have pretty much been a lousy team since then. Yeah they won the powerful AL Central last year and they've been "in it" this year if you want to contort the definition of "in it." Not trying to be difficult with you, but that's how some of us see it. Maybe it's not the popular view, but to me very realistic in assessing this team the last 3+ seasons.

dickallen15
09-19-2009, 12:00 PM
I can't get the original post, so I am quoting yours. But July 6, 2006? That is so freaking aribitrary. Since April 4, 2006 they are 11 games over .500. Since April of 2008 they are also 11 games over .500. Since April 4, 2005 they are 47 games over .500. Etc. etc. Once again, I am quoting your post because the original seems to be gone. I am on your side.

Its not arbitrary at all. Its when the team collapsed in 2006. They went from dominating the AL Central to a below average team. Its a span of over 500 games. Thankfully an inbalanced schedule which means you get to play KC, Cle, Det 18-19 times a year makes the Sox number look better.

How about these numbers:
2006 3rd place
2007 4th place
2008 1st place
2009 3rd place

If Ozzie, Cooper and Kenny are these geniuses many build them up to be, why, considering the advantage they have in their division, are the results post championship underwhelming.

captain54
09-19-2009, 12:17 PM
The way the players are responding to his "threats and blowups", It looks like a bunch of teenagers who figured out their dad's bark is worse than his bite.



Looks VERY bad for Ozzie when he revamps the lineup, calls out the players publicly as "horsebleep", calls a team meeting, and they respond by losing 11-0 and only collecting three hits.

As you mentioned, this was Ozzie and Kenny's baby all along. They had all the pieces they wanted in place, but still went in with only three reliable starters and an opening day lineup that may have lost them 100 games this year.

Ozzie looks beaten, frustrated, and confused. Despite publicy stating he takes the blame for this season, it seems he is beating up his players publicy now and seemingly taking the blame off of himself. If this is the case, and this is how the players perceive it to be, it could be the beginning of the end for Ozzie.

dickallen15
09-19-2009, 12:29 PM
Looks VERY bad for Ozzie when he revamps the lineup, calls out the players publicly as "horsebleep", calls a team meeting, and they respond by losing 11-0 and only collecting three hits.

As you mentioned, this was Ozzie and Kenny's baby all along. They had all the pieces they wanted in place, but still went in with only three reliable starters and an opening day lineup that may have lost them 100 games this year.

Ozzie looks beaten, frustrated, and confused. Despite publicy stating he takes the blame for this season, it seems he is beating up his players publicy now and seemingly taking the blame off of himself. If this is the case, and this is how the players perceive it to be, it could be the beginning of the end for Ozzie.

Although publicly Kenny and Ozzie will say they take blame, realistically they still take all the credit for the WS, and still think their **** doesn't stink. I do think this year, like 2007, will be a wake up call for KW. After that year he realized he couldn't just throw a bunch of crap at the bullpen and hope for some to stick, he had to spend money and Linebrink was great until he hurt his shoulder. Dotel has been more than serviceable. He got Quentin and his head swelled again, thinking he knew more than anyone about minor leaguers about ready to break out. Hence, Lillibridge, putting a ton of faith into a no defense, strikeout machine in Josh Fields, having a roster where Dewayne Wise led off throwing $10 million at Viciedo, etc. I'm hoping he's humbled again, because it appears Reinsdorf may be barking. KW perfoms a lot better after he can admit to himself he was wrong.

Tragg
09-19-2009, 01:26 PM
The Sox have played below their talent level three of the last four years. Plenty of coaches who led teams to wiles titles were subsequently canned. From poor talent evaluation to several cases of poor strategy, Williams needs to carefully evaluate.
Certainly Williams has assembled flawed tams and made a few poorly-conceived trades (among many good ones) but that's a different issue.

voodoochile
09-19-2009, 02:14 PM
Despite your big bold type, your argument is flat and lifeless, and if the Sox were in any other division in MLB, it would be totally and completely irrelevant

Maybe we should bring back Cliff Politte because he has a great 05....Maybe we should bring back Jerry Manuel because he won a division in 00...Maybe we should bring back Bobby Thigpen because he broke a record for saves in the early 90's....hey, I remember when "the Deacon" had in game winning hit in 93'..lelts bring him back too.

Players are routinely launched for non performance...Josh Fields, Brian Anderson, MacDougal, etc...the list goes on...the same should apply for management..While you can't launch an organization, you can certainly overhaul it...Unfortunately, sports is a "what have you done for me lately" system of attrition

Maybe you can tell me how it's Ozzie's fault that TCQ broke his hand last summer or that Dye fell off the map the whole second half of this season and the veterans in the bullpen mostly imploded for most of the summer or that the bench he was forced to play a lot this spring due to injuries consisted of a bunch of stiffs or the Colon/Contreras 2-headed one ankled fatman of doom that occupied not one but two slots in the rotation or that Buehrle and Contreras would fall off the map in late summer 2006 and post ERA's above 6 for the second half of the season that year.

Are things perfect? No, but blaming Ozzie at this stage of the game is simply ridiculous.

Edit: Oh and as to your weak division argument, if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its ass when it walked. The first goal is always win the division. Ozzie's done it twice in a 4 year span, been in the hunt two more times and won a World Series title along the way. The rest is for ****s and giggles.

voodoochile
09-19-2009, 02:17 PM
Its not arbitrary at all. Its when the team collapsed in 2006. They went from dominating the AL Central to a below average team. Its a span of over 500 games. Thankfully an inbalanced schedule which means you get to play KC, Cle, Det 18-19 times a year makes the Sox number look better.

How about these numbers:
2006 3rd place
2007 4th place
2008 1st place
2009 3rd place

If Ozzie, Cooper and Kenny are these geniuses many build them up to be, why, considering the advantage they have in their division, are the results post championship underwhelming.

The complete lack of in depth analysis in this post is simply astounding. Careful there, you'll hurt yourself jerking your knee that much...

Pear-Zin-Ski
09-19-2009, 02:22 PM
Despite your big bold type, your argument is flat and lifeless, and if the Sox were in any other division in MLB, it would be totally and completely irrelevant.

But they are not.

I've never understood this arguement. What conclusions have we drawn this season about our preformance against the rest of the AL?

AL East: 17-19
6-2 vs. Rays
3-3 vs. Orioles
1-6 (!!!) vs. Jays
3-4 vs. Yanks
4-4 vs. Red Sox

AL West: 15-18
4-5 vs. Mariners
5-4 vs. LAAAAA
4-5 vs. Athletics
2-4 vs. Rangers

AL Central: 25-30
6-7 vs. Royals - 1st sweep (5/29-5/31)
6-9 vs. Twins
5-7 vs. Tigers
8-7 vs. Indians - 2nd sweep (6-29-7/1)

vs. NL: 12-6 (What would our record be without interleague play!?)

I realize the season isn't done yet and we still play the AL Central through the end of the season, but my first conclusion is you have to win games against the teams in your division if you want to win it! 1-3 so far @ The Cell vs. The Royals!? Come on! I won't even go into the 2-7 vs. The Twinkees, it's expected, which is such a sad excuse.

Our record vs. the AL West is a wash. We have a winning record against The Angels and no one else. Vs. the AL East we play the Rays well and that's about it. If you look at the Home/Away splits for the AL East it is night and day for The Sox, play like gods at home, play like crap on the road.

JB98
09-19-2009, 02:26 PM
I still put most of this season's failings at the feet of Kenny Williams. Look at how we started the season: Contreras and Colon in the rotation. Wise and Anderson sharing CF. Fields as the 3B. Miller as the backup C. MacDougal in the bullpen. Lillibridge and Betemit as the best options off the bench. A lot of bad players in that group. Jimmy Gobble was on the roster for awhile, for crying out loud.

It didn't take long before they realized that they really sucked. They've remade the roster as the year has gone along, but it's hard to win a division with only three reliable starters and bad defense. It's hard to win a division with a team in transition that experienced this much midseason turnover. I think Ozzie has made some mistakes this year, but I'm not convinced this was "the best team in the division," as some here seem to believe it was. Even in July, I was saying ".500 club," while others were touting this as a serious contender.

As it turns out, it's not going to be even a .500 club because the players have lost their intensity. From my perspective, the late-season offensive fades are getting old. People say this club is "home run or nothing." Home runs? Where are these home runs you speak of? This team has no offensive strength right now.

KW needs to make some tweaks to the lineup. Defensively, I still don't like Ramirez at shortstop, although he's a productive hitter for a middle infielder. Corner outfield, right-handed relief, shortstop, or maybe 3B if they move Beckham back to his natural position, I see all those things as needs. Ozzie doesn't have a complete team. It isn't like he has run a championship contender into the ground here. This team's record doesn't lie. They simply aren't that good, and I've spent of most of the season believing that quite a few WSIers have an inflated view of this group's ability.

dickallen15
09-19-2009, 02:33 PM
The complete lack of in depth analysis in this post is simply astounding. Careful there, you'll hurt yourself jerking your knee that much...

Good post. Anytime you can make no point but insult its a post everyone should admire.

dickallen15
09-19-2009, 02:35 PM
Maybe you can tell me how it's Ozzie's fault that TCQ broke his hand last summer or that Dye fell off the map the whole second half of this season and the veterans in the bullpen mostly imploded for most of the summer or that the bench he was forced to play a lot this spring due to injuries consisted of a bunch of stiffs or the Colon/Contreras 2-headed one ankled fatman of doom that occupied not one but two slots in the rotation or that Buehrle and Contreras would fall off the map in late summer 2006 and post ERA's above 6 for the second half of the season that year.

Are things perfect? No, but blaming Ozzie at this stage of the game is simply ridiculous.

Edit: Oh and as to your weak division argument, if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its ass when it walked. The first goal is always win the division. Ozzie's done it twice in a 4 year span, been in the hunt two more times and won a World Series title along the way. The rest is for ****s and giggles.

I'm glad you're satisfied with this season being "in the hunt" in a horrible division with a team that is 10 games under .500 vs AL teams.

voodoochile
09-19-2009, 02:36 PM
Good post. Anytime you can make no point but insult its a post everyone should admire.

Scroll up one, I put the analysis there and can you tell me where exactly I insulted you personally. I thought the post you made was for **** and I said as much. I don't think you are for ****, but that post sure was...

voodoochile
09-19-2009, 02:41 PM
I'm glad you're satisfied with this season being "in the hunt" in a horrible division with a team that is 10 games under .500 vs AL teams.

I'm not satisfied with that, but certainly it's a beginning. You can't win in the playoffs unless you make the playoffs.

But if the Sox could make the playoffs 5 times in 10 years, I'd be pretty damned happy.

voodoochile
09-19-2009, 02:48 PM
BTW, I saw Farmio after the game last night. He couldn't believe the White Sox lack of intensity. I suppose Ozzie has nothing to do with that. What exactly is his job other than to make out the line-up? Apparently benching Quentin, Rios and Dye didn't work.

I don't have an answer for why this year's team is struggling motivationwise, but last year they seemed to have plenty of it and in 2005, so what exactly do you want here?

This team has a ton of issues that have nothing to do with motivation, but maybe those other issues made it easier for guys to stop caring as much. Certainly blown saves can have a negative effect on a team and that has been an issue all summer long.

Maybe KW's decision to trade of Thome and Contreras to start the month said, "it's over" to the team and that hurt their fire and drive.

I don't think motivation is the answer to problems with Dye, Rios, the bullpen, Quentin's foot, etc.

I also find it amusing you actually listen to Farmer... I've always thought that not having to listen to him was one advantage of being deaf...:tongue:

soxfanreggie
09-19-2009, 02:48 PM
throwing $10 million at Viciedo

Has Vicideo turned out to be a bust? I'd like to give him more than one season. Even if he does, I'm glad we have taken chances on getting some high-potential international (FA) prospects like Alexei and Viciedo. Boston took a huge risk in going after Dice-K. The Yankees did the same thing with Contreras. Is there a huge risk sometimes? Yes. Is there a huge potential for reward? Yes.

dickallen15
09-19-2009, 02:50 PM
I don't have an answer for why this year's team is struggling motivationwise, but last year they seemed to have plenty of it and in 2005, so what exactly do you want here?

This team has a ton of issues that have nothing to do with motivation, but maybe those other issues made it easier for guys to stop caring as much. Certainly blown saves can have a negative effect on a team and that has been an issue all summer long.

Maybe KW's decision to trade of Thome and Contreras to start the month said, "it's over" to the team and that hurt their fire and drive.

I don't think motivation is the answer to problems with Dye, Rios, the bullpen, Quentin's foot, etc.

I also find it amusing you actually listen to Farmer... I've always thought that not having to listen to him was one advantage of being deaf...:tongue:

Farmio is actually pretty interesting. I must say he was very nice last night. Its the first time I have interacted with him, but he really was quite gracious.

dickallen15
09-19-2009, 02:53 PM
Has Vicideo turned out to be a bust? I'd like to give him more than one season. Even if he does, I'm glad we have taken chances on getting some high-potential international (FA) prospects like Alexei and Viciedo. Boston took a huge risk in going after Dice-K. The Yankees did the same thing with Contreras. Is there a huge risk sometimes? Yes. Is there a huge potential for reward? Yes.

I wouldn't say he's a bust yet, but he's $10 million, and probably $7-8 million of that will be to play in the minors. The Sox have already paid him double what they have paid Beckham.

Tragg
09-19-2009, 03:11 PM
I still put most of this season's failings at the feet of Kenny Williams. Look at how we started the season: Contreras and Colon in the rotation. Wise and Anderson sharing CF. Fields as the 3B. Miller as the backup C. MacDougal in the bullpen. Lillibridge and Betemit as the best options off the bench. A lot of bad players in that group. Jimmy Gobble was on the roster for awhile, for crying out loud..But ozzie had a lot of input into that. No way does Wise even get a contract, had Guillen not been absolutely awed by his hacking skills. Ozzie decided wise deserved the leadofd spot and Ozzie continued to play him. And I think one of his mistakes is hirig sidekicks instead of serious coaches who will challenge him.

I agree on Beckham. He is devalued at 3b and our defense would improve with him at 2b and a good 3b. This would allow us to trade Getz who ha trade value.

chisoxfanatic
09-19-2009, 03:15 PM
It didn't take long before they realized that they really sucked. They've remade the roster as the year has gone along, but it's hard to win a division with only three reliable starters and bad defense. It's hard to win a division with a team in transition that experienced this much midseason turnover. I think Ozzie has made some mistakes this year, but I'm not convinced this was "the best team in the division," as some here seem to believe it was. Even in July, I was saying ".500 club," while others were touting this as a serious contender.
Even in July, noone imagined JD and TCQ sucking it up as much as they have while only having 1 or 2 bats who they actually felt comfortable with every time they stepped up to the plate (Pierzynski and maybe Beckham), or Buehrle going on a huge sabbatical, or Jenks continuing to struggle big time.

JB98
09-19-2009, 03:19 PM
But ozIe had a lot of input into that. No way does Wise even get a contract, had Guillen not been absolutely awed by his hacking skills. Ozzie decided wise deserved the leadofd spot and Ozzie continued to play him. And I think one of his mistakes is hirig sidekicks instead of serious coaches who will challenge him.

I agree on Beckham. He is devalued at 3b and our defense would improve with him at 2b and a good 3b. This would allow us to trade Getz who ha trade value.

Look, I know you hate that Wise is on the roster. And he is a poor player. There's no question about that. But even if Ozzie wanted Wise and KW wanted BA, they were both wrong. We opened the season with a hole in CF. That hole has been there for years and was never addressed. That's primarily the GM's responsibility, IMO.

I think KW had a poor offseason. Maybe his hands were tied by ownership. I don't know. But we had a sorry roster when the season opened in April. There were a lot of blowout losses early in the year, and I think that just set a negative tone for the whole season. The Sox have been playing catchup all year, and they simply aren't good enough to overcome their deficiencies, even with the midseason roster moves.

I wouldn't mind seeing a couple changes to the coaching staff. I agree with you on that point.

captain54
09-19-2009, 05:15 PM
Maybe you can tell me how it's Ozzie's fault that TCQ broke his hand last summer or that Dye fell off the map the whole second half of this season and the veterans in the bullpen mostly imploded for most of the summer or that the bench he was forced to play a lot this spring due to injuries consisted of a bunch of stiffs or the Colon/Contreras 2-headed one ankled fatman of doom that occupied not one but two slots in the rotation or that Buehrle and Contreras would fall off the map in late summer 2006 and post ERA's above 6 for the second half of the season that year.

Are things perfect? No, but blaming Ozzie at this stage of the game is simply ridiculous.

Edit: Oh and as to your weak division argument, if a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its ass when it walked. The first goal is always win the division. Ozzie's done it twice in a 4 year span, been in the hunt two more times and won a World Series title along the way. The rest is for ****s and giggles.

You answered you own questions with your statement "things are not perfect"..Players go in to slumps, players get injured, etc..every team has to go through a certain amount of that every year. The elite teams in MLB have the depth to ride all of that out.

You're ignoring the main issue here, and the single biggest reason the White Sox have had a miserable season. Bad defense, bad baserunning, bad situational hitting, bad fundamental baseball.....let's not even get into the bullpen issue. To absolve the manager of all responsibility for these failures is simply not realistic.

Ozzie along with Kenny have had plenty of input as to putting these players on the roster. It could possibly be that it is what it is. Maybe these players are simply not capable of playing sound fundamental baseball. You can't put your lovable mutt Rover in a race with greyhounds and except it to have a chance. And then be outraged when he finishes way way back in the pack.

The only goal is to win the World Series...**** the division. (See Chicago Cubs 2008 for reference)

TheVulture
09-19-2009, 07:49 PM
I can think of about 40 mistakes Ozzie made this year: the times he wrote Dewayne Wise's name in the lineup.

Britt Burns
09-19-2009, 08:23 PM
I wouldn't say he's a bust yet, but he's $10 million, and probably $7-8 million of that will be to play in the minors. The Sox have already paid him double what they have paid Beckham.

Vicideo a bust? Huh? He had a strong year in a hitter's park as one of the youngest players in the league. Oh, and he had to adjust to a completely new culture and he made obvious signs of improvement as the season wore on. He almost certainly will need another year or two in the minors, and despite the contract the Sox will control him for a minimum of 6 years like any other player. There was a small--a very small--hope that he could be ML ready on Day 1. Obviously that did not happen but to suggest he is a bust is ludicrous. Most likely he will enter the offseason as the Sox #3 prospect behind Hudson and Flowers.

Daver
09-19-2009, 08:35 PM
Why stop at Ozzie?

Throw the coaching staff under the bus for poor performances from some of the players, throw Herm Schneider under the bus because players got hurt, throw the ML scouting staff under the bus for not getting the info needed to face pitchers the team has never seen, throw Kenny under the bus for not putting together a roster of all stars, and throw Ken Harrelson under the bus just because, Chris Rongey is off the hook though, but if the team struggles next year he can taste rubber too.

gosox41
09-19-2009, 09:25 PM
Not intended to be a "fire Ozzie" mandate, but a realistic look at whether or not these players have flat out stopped taking Ozzie seriously, or whether Ozzie's abilities to right a sinking ship are simply maxed out.

It's pretty obvious the collective funks this year have added up to one of the most frustrating seasons in memory, but the across the board failures in defense, clutch hitting, baserunning, relief pitching, etc. raise this basic question:

Ozzie is given 25 players to manage. Isn't his job as field manager to get the best possible performances out of those 25?

Is it his job to get the most of his players, no doubt. And he did an excellent job of that last year.

But this year is not his fault. He did wait a little too long with JC, but that's not what cost us the division. What cost us the division are three things"

TCQ
Dye
Rios

If all of those 3 guys hit a measly .250 for the second half with decent power numbers then this team is in first right now. But instead TCQ is either hurt or bad, Rios has choked miserably, and Dye picked a terrbile time for an extended slump.

Blame those guys. Ozzie had little choice to but to play 1-3 of them on any given night.


Bob

voodoochile
09-19-2009, 10:35 PM
You answered you own questions with your statement "things are not perfect"..Players go in to slumps, players get injured, etc..every team has to go through a certain amount of that every year. The elite teams in MLB have the depth to ride all of that out.

You're ignoring the main issue here, and the single biggest reason the White Sox have had a miserable season. Bad defense, bad baserunning, bad situational hitting, bad fundamental baseball.....let's not even get into the bullpen issue. To absolve the manager of all responsibility for these failures is simply not realistic.

Ozzie along with Kenny have had plenty of input as to putting these players on the roster. It could possibly be that it is what it is. Maybe these players are simply not capable of playing sound fundamental baseball. You can't put your lovable mutt Rover in a race with greyhounds and except it to have a chance. And then be outraged when he finishes way way back in the pack.

The only goal is to win the World Series...**** the division. (See Chicago Cubs 2008 for reference)

Well, we just simply disagree. The defense obviously wasn't great this season, but the infield has shown signs of gelling the last month or so and while we one time had more errors and unearned runs than any team in the majors we've actually managed to climb a few spots in both cases.

Situational hitting is such an ambiguous statement, I don't really know what to say in response. I'm glad the Sox don't bunt a lot so I'm actually happy it's not a strong point. This team isn't failing offensively because of situational hitting, it's failing offensively because Dye has sucked for the past 2+ months, TCQ is struggling with a bum leg, Thome got traded and Rios hasn't come close to putting up respectable numbers. That's 4 mid order bats that aren't performing or are no longer here.

I'll grant you the baserunning, but don't think it's as big of a deal as you make it out to be.

Bullpen issues... So it's Ozzie's fault that Linebrink has gone from a premier setup man to Billy Koch? That Jenks had a miserable year? I'm not even sure what you mean here. I think Ozzie handles the bullpen fairly well but the problems with the SP has worn it down this season.

Obviously the GOAL is a WS championship every year, but expecting it to happen more than once every 5 years at best is probably unrealistic given the number of factors that go into winning one.

The Sox had to cut payroll last winter and started the season with injuries to several starters then went on to see some key elements have bad summers and still the team hung in the pennant race until just recently and still aren't mathematically eliminated, in fact if they can some how go 11-2 including sweeps of Detroit and the Twins between now and the end of the year, they still might squeak it out. Yeah, that's probably not gonna happen, but the fact it's even possible might be more of a testament to Ozzie's efforts than a condemnation of them...

Noneck
09-19-2009, 11:16 PM
The Sox had to cut payroll last winter and started the season with injuries to several starters then went on to see some key elements have bad summers and still the team hung in the pennant race until just recently and still aren't mathematically eliminated, in fact if they can some how go 11-2 including sweeps of Detroit and the Twins between now and the end of the year, they still might squeak it out. Yeah, that's probably not gonna happen, but the fact it's even possible might be more of a testament to Ozzie's efforts than a condemnation of them...

This was a division winning team of a year ago and was not decimated with injuries this year.

We have no idea that the Sox "had" to cut payroll, all we know is that we were told that and they did until they found money for Peavy and Rios later in the year.

This team is 3 under .500 with 13 to go and all but mathematically out of the race in a crappy division. A lot of bodies should be tossed under the bus, the real question should be "Who shouldn't be thrown under the bus?" '

voodoochile
09-19-2009, 11:32 PM
This was a division winning team of a year ago and was not decimated with injuries this year.

We have no idea that the Sox "had" to cut payroll, all we know is that we were told that and they did until they found money for Peavy and Rios later in the year.

This team is 3 under .500 with 13 to go and all but mathematically out of the race in a crappy division. A lot of bodies should be tossed under the bus, the real question should be "Who shouldn't be thrown under the bus?" '

Believe or disbelieve what you want. Injuries to several starters, poor play at 3B and CF (which injuries played a part in), TCQ's foot, Contreras ankle, Barolo's fat (or whatever it was).

Then non-injured but still key players, Dye, Jenks and Linebrink all had horrible summers.

The fact is the Sox did cut payroll this past off season. Now you can think it was some nefarious reason intended to give the Sox less than a fighting chance or simply arrogance, but the fact remains lots of baseball teams were concerned about revenue this last winter and several of them went on to cut payroll either then or during the season.

The Peavy and Rios acquisition stuff has been broken down time and time again, so I don't know if you are simply trolling for an argument by acting obtuse or are willfully ignorant of the obvious facts that because the Sox couldn't add $25M to payroll last winter doesn't mean they couldn't ad $8M for the last two months in the hopes of getting it back from playoff and increased seat sales over the those final months knowing next year's money balanced with money coming off the books from this year's payroll.

One more time...

Peavy = Contreras + Dotel
Rios = Thome

Since the Sox didn't recoup that $8M in playoff and increased ticket revenue or at least it looks like they didn't KW recouped some of it by trading Contreras and Thome.

I'm really hoping I don't have to type all that out again...:tongue:

Noneck
09-20-2009, 12:12 AM
Believe or disbelieve what you want. Injuries to several starters, poor play at 3B and CF (which injuries played a part in), TCQ's foot, Contreras ankle, Barolo's fat (or whatever it was).

No more than other teams.

Then non-injured but still key players, Dye, Jenks and Linebrink all had horrible summers.

Under the bus they go and KW gets some tire burns for that Linebrink contract.

The fact is the Sox did cut payroll this past off season. Now you can think it was some nefarious reason intended to give the Sox less than a fighting chance or simply arrogance, but the fact remains lots of baseball teams were concerned about revenue this last winter and several of them went on to cut payroll either then or during the season.

I dont see any of those payroll cutting teams going in the post season. JR, under the bus you go.

The Peavy and Rios acquisition stuff has been broken down time and time again, so I don't know if you are simply trolling for an argument by acting obtuse or are willfully ignorant of the obvious facts that because the Sox couldn't add $25M to payroll last winter doesn't mean they couldn't ad $8M for the last two months in the hopes of getting it back from playoff and increased seat sales over the those final months knowing next year's money balanced with money coming off the books from this year's payroll.

A competitive club should have been fielded at the beginning of the year not at a point of desperation this year and then hopefully only for future years. . You have no idea what the Sox books look like and only go by what you read. Maybe they had the money and maybe they didn't, neither of us can make a definitive statement on that. You go under the bus on this one for insinuating I am trolling. A lot of things I can be but that's not one of them.


One more time...

Peavy = Contreras + Dotel
Rios = Thome

Since the Sox didn't recoup that $8M in playoff and increased ticket revenue or at least it looks like they didn't KW recouped some of it by trading Contreras and Thome.

I'm really hoping I don't have to type all that out again...:tongue:

Once again no one knows what was recovered by Contreras and Thome, for all we know is that Sox are still paying them until the last week of the season.

The Sox spent for Rios and Peavy (hopefully they are good investments or KW will not only be thrown under the bus but will be dragged there for many years to come). The spending on these 2 didn't help this team at all this year so KW gets tossed under again.

You do realize most of what you said was supporting my case that most involved should be thrown under the bus? And the only one you didn't give me an opportunity to toss was Ozwaldo.

Finally, I agree with you, I sure don't want to type this out again either.

SoxFan84
09-21-2009, 12:42 AM
Look even though we pretty much sucked it up this year every 1 here has to admit we didnt do that bad considering the "EXPERTS" had us finishing 4th only a few games outta last, so considering we are still in contention for 2nd and hell maybe even a playoff appearance I think our boys did a hellva job this year considering our Rotation has been crap all year

jabrch
09-21-2009, 12:55 AM
Looks VERY bad for Ozzie when he revamps the lineup, calls out the players publicly as "horsebleep", calls a team meeting, and they respond by losing 11-0 and only collecting three hits.

No - it looks bad for the entire team. But since Guillen didn't pitch, hit or field, I blame the guys who did much more than the guy who tells them to do it.

captain54
09-21-2009, 01:05 AM
No - it looks bad for the entire team. But since Guillen didn't pitch, hit or field, I blame the guys who did much more than the guy who tells them to do it.

Since its all up to the guys on the field, I suggest then Ozzie skip all the team meetings, all the press conferences, etc....Just fill out the lineup card, hand it to the umpire, then go back to the dugout, take a nap, and let Joey Cora wake him up about the 6th for a pitching change, or earlier if the starter's gettting blown out.

ramblinsoxfan11
09-21-2009, 01:06 AM
I can think of about 40 mistakes Ozzie made this year: the times he wrote Dewayne Wise's name in the lineup.

I think Mark Buehrle would argue for one of those 40 not being a mistake

captain54
09-21-2009, 01:11 AM
Look even though we pretty much sucked it up this year every 1 here has to admit we didnt do that bad considering the "EXPERTS" had us finishing 4th only a few games outta last, so considering we are still in contention for 2nd and hell maybe even a playoff appearance I think our boys did a hellva job this year considering our Rotation has been crap all year

The pitching staff is 2nd in the AL in ERA. The pitching staff has had no margin for error all year considering how back the offense has sucked most of the year.

If you think finishing with the most errors in the AL and finished with the 3rd worst BA in the AL is doing a helluva job, then I don't know what else to say.

g0g0
09-21-2009, 07:27 AM
Nope, Ozzie isn't to blame for this season. I hope he stays for many more years to come. There's a gap with old/young talent that need to be hammered out. We have the pitching, now we just have to shore up our defense and get some bats going. Hopefully we can sign a good DH in the offseason.

southside rocks
09-21-2009, 07:55 AM
Since its all up to the guys on the field, I suggest then Ozzie skip all the team meetings, all the press conferences, etc....Just fill out the lineup card, hand it to the umpire, then go back to the dugout, take a nap, and let Joey Cora wake him up about the 6th for a pitching change, or earlier if the starter's gettting blown out.

I bet Ozzie wishes he could do that -- it's not in his nature and it never will be. Unlike some other managers, he cares all the time. They were talking about this on Baseball This Morning (on XM) the other day. They said that Ozzie's greatest strength -- his fire and passion and love for the game -- is also his great weakness when things go bad as they have this year. But they concluded that any club would rather have a manager who cares intensely than one who doesn't, and they said that compared to Billy Martin, Ozzie is pretty tame. :tongue:

Waysouthsider
09-21-2009, 11:24 AM
I worry about Ozzies stunt-like management style....

Praise in Public----Criticize in Private......all of this public calling out of his players is not professional and can't be good even though it seems to really entertain the national media and the guys at the Cubune...

I wish he'd pause before he opens his mouth.....I'm tired of "Ozzie being Ozzie" and wish he'd act like like a professional leader.

TheVulture
09-21-2009, 01:30 PM
I think Mark Buehrle would argue for one of those 40 not being a mistake
The perfect game was great, I'd rather have a winning ballclub, though.

jabrch
09-21-2009, 02:26 PM
Since its all up to the guys on the field, I suggest then Ozzie skip all the team meetings, all the press conferences, etc....Just fill out the lineup card, hand it to the umpire, then go back to the dugout, take a nap, and let Joey Cora wake him up about the 6th for a pitching change, or earlier if the starter's gettting blown out.

This is nothing but trolling - and I am not going to bite. :dtroll:

ewokpelts
09-21-2009, 02:35 PM
He wont. But he DOES need to motivate the players better.

captain54
09-21-2009, 03:10 PM
This is nothing but trolling - and I am not going to bite. :dtroll:

You're the guy that put up a post that seemed to imply the manager has little to do with the teams performance on the field. I disagreed, and responded in kind.

You can't defend your argument, so you then resort to some weird. out of nowhere attack. Strange

#1swisher
09-21-2009, 03:16 PM
He wont. But he DOES need to motivate the players better.


No kidding, read this article:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090920&content_id=7068768&vkey=news_min&fext=.jsp&c_id=min

Ozzie, FYI, this doesn't motivate your team.

GrandValleyBB10
09-22-2009, 05:00 PM
No kidding, read this article:
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090920&content_id=7068768&vkey=news_min&fext=.jsp&c_id=min

Ozzie, FYI, this doesn't motivate your team.


Basically what Ozzie is saying is that he wishes he could teach his players to play like the twins do. He wishes that his guys could make clutch plays, he wishes they could bunt, hit and run, and get those clutch hits when the team needs them. Gardenhire is a pheonominal manager, and he is the reason that the Twinkies are contending for the title year after year. Fundamentally sound teams, aka teams that dont beat themselves, give themselves a chance to win each game. The sox have found ways to give games away because of horrible defense and being horribly coached. For those of you that will say im trolling for another argument, not true. If you would realize how much a manager impacts a game and how much this lefty vs. righty or vise versa crap out of the bullpen is hogwash, maybe we could come to some common ground on guillen being a large factor in this crappy crappy season

Daver
09-22-2009, 05:47 PM
Basically what Ozzie is saying is that he wishes he could teach his players to play like the twins do. He wishes that his guys could make clutch plays, he wishes they could bunt, hit and run, and get those clutch hits when the team needs them. Gardenhire is a pheonominal manager, and he is the reason that the Twinkies are contending for the title year after year. Fundamentally sound teams, aka teams that dont beat themselves, give themselves a chance to win each game.The Twins player development has nothing to do with Ron Gardenhire and everything to do with Terry Ryan, the Twins were doing this long before Gardenhire got there. No organization in MLB scouts more amateur players than the Twins do.

twinsuck
09-22-2009, 05:52 PM
Yes fire him.

GrandValleyBB10
09-22-2009, 05:53 PM
The Twins player development has nothing to do with Ron Gardenhire and everything to do with Terry Ryan, the Twins were doing this long before Gardenhire got there. No organization in MLB scouts more amateur players than the Twins do.

It has nothing to do with him? off season/spring training/practices/and games? he doesn't work with them at all on improving skills? how the play the game? their work ethic? and more importantly, the skills and type of play that he personally demands from them?

Big D
09-22-2009, 06:18 PM
The Twins player development has nothing to do with Ron Gardenhire and everything to do with Terry Ryan, the Twins were doing this long before Gardenhire got there. No organization in MLB scouts more amateur players than the Twins do.

That doesn't really say much for the Sox as an organization. The Sox have so many more resources than the Twins, it's pathetic that the Twins have a much more productive scouting and farm system. There's more to trying to win than simply having a high payroll, and the Sox don't seem to realize that. Other high revenue teams like the Yankees and Red Sox have been starting to sink some of their massive resources into scouting and player development, but it still seems to be an afterthought for the Sox.

TomParrish79
09-22-2009, 06:22 PM
only thing Ozzie should be held accountable for is not firing Greg Walker

GrandValleyBB10
09-22-2009, 06:27 PM
only thing Ozzie should be held accountable for is not firing Greg Walker

that might be the only thing he shouldn't be held accountable for...when coaches fire assistants, it means that they know their job is on the line and they need to do something to keep it...if anyone on the coaching staff leaves, ozzie should follow

TornLabrum
09-22-2009, 06:37 PM
That doesn't really say much for the Sox as an organization. The Sox have so many more resources than the Twins, it's pathetic that the Twins have a much more productive scouting and farm system. There's more to trying to win than simply having a high payroll, and the Sox don't seem to realize that. Other high revenue teams like the Yankees and Red Sox have been starting to sink some of their massive resources into scouting and player development, but it still seems to be an afterthought for the Sox.

You're right. The Sox player development system was in a shambles. That's why heads rolled a couple of years ago. We won't know for another couple of years whether there has been any improvement.

Daver
09-22-2009, 07:29 PM
It has nothing to do with him? off season/spring training/practices/and games? he doesn't work with them at all on improving skills? how the play the game? their work ethic? and more importantly, the skills and type of play that he personally demands from them?

That is all done on the minor league level, when a player is called up to the Twins MLB roster he already has those skills.

SteveFakeBlood
09-22-2009, 08:07 PM
I don't anywhere on these 10 pages it's mentioned that Ozzie is the ONLY manager in White Sox history to lead the team to the postseason twice.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong...


Ultimately, some of it falls on Ozzie and Kenny, most of it falls on the players as many have said before me.

And I know all our commentary on the Sox is going to be biased, but I find it interesting how the definitions of a good manager and a good GM are constantly changing based on single moves.

For argument's sake let's only look at post-2005- Kenny has given us Floyd, Danks, Quentin, Beckham, Alexei, Thornton, Kotsay and Getz at pretty much no cost to us either through small-time trades, cheap free agent signings or the draft. Time will tell what contributions Rios, Peavy and Viciedo will make and how much longer the Podsednik hitting honeymoon will last- but in spite of Linebrink, the 2007 team in general, the centerfield issues and the success of Javy and Swisher elsewherethis year (which I argue is irrelevant- given that they both solely benefitted from a change of scenery- they wouldn't have succeeded here in '09 given the mess that was last year's playoffs) I think he's been above average.


Ozzie shouldn't put Scott Podsednik in Centerfield, ever. And sure he's been too committed to continuing to start Dye- but didn't have much to work with and Center and it's hard to bench a guy who was your best hitter in the 1st half and who has historically been successful at the end of the year.

Sure, he's thrown his players under the bus a bit and he should be scrutinized more in 2010- but both did pretty good jobs of putting a playoff contender on the field and the hitters were incosistent and the bullpen was worse. The pieces are set for a memorable year for 2010. If they can't do anything next year and fail to make major changes in 2011 their chances have run out.

~Steve

PS It pisses me off when people talk about how crappy the AL Central is. How soon people forget 2006. Remember the NL Central was mocked all year? And it was discussed that baseball's format be changed so teams that barely got to .500 wouldn't be in the playoffs. Then remember how an 83 win team won the World Series? Sure it's the exception rather than the rule, but it happened... the regular season really means **** in the playoffs. Making the playoffs is better than not making it.

soxinem1
09-22-2009, 10:46 PM
That is all done on the minor league level, when a player is called up to the Twins MLB roster he already has those skills.

And that is the way it should be, and how MIN has been doing it going back to the days of Calvin Griffith.

Our players are making mistakes on basics that should be taught in the minors, and perfected in AA and AAA.

If MIN had the White Sox resources they would be the NYY of the AL Central.