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View Full Version : Coin Tosses No Longer Used as Tiebreaker


mzh
09-17-2009, 05:21 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090917&content_id=7018116&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

Perhaps as a result of the lopsided home-road winning percentages of the Sox and Twins? I'm surprised they didn't do this immediately after the blackout game.

oeo
09-17-2009, 05:36 PM
It's a result of the Twins being crybabies.

chisox616
09-17-2009, 05:50 PM
Actually, I thought this was announced last winter, around November? I remember reading a thread here about it. Maybe it's just official now.

getonbckthr
09-17-2009, 06:00 PM
Even though we did benefit from it the coin-toss was stupid.

chisoxfanatic
09-17-2009, 06:07 PM
Even though we did benefit from it the coin-toss was stupid.

The coin toss never happened. They just gave the 200 AL Central Champions* home field advantage, because they wanted both Chicago teams in the playoffs for ratings.

oeo
09-17-2009, 06:13 PM
Even though we did benefit from it the coin-toss was stupid.

Last year the Twins won the season series 10-8. That's one lucky bounce, one missed call, one bad play, etc. that could have made the series tied. If the Twins dominated the Sox last year, they would have a point. A difference of one game, however, is nothing to brag about.

getonbckthr
09-17-2009, 06:29 PM
Last year the Twins won the season series 10-8. That's one lucky bounce, one missed call, one bad play, etc. that could have made the series tied. If the Twins dominated the Sox last year, they would have a point. A difference of one game, however, is nothing to brag about.
Doesn't matter it was settled on the field.

thomas35forever
09-17-2009, 07:51 PM
It's a result of the Twins being crybabies.
Yep. It showed their true colors in that they couldn't take a bad break like men.

doublem23
09-17-2009, 07:53 PM
Doesn't matter it was settled on the field.

IIRC, last year the Sox played more games at the Dome than the Twins played at the Cell.

mzh
09-17-2009, 09:35 PM
IIRC, last year the Sox played more games at the Dome than the Twins played at the Cell.

How is that possible? Inter-division games are split 9-9 for home-away

Madscout
09-17-2009, 09:36 PM
IIRC, last year the Sox played more games at the Dome than the Twins played at the Cell.
No. We just played more there late last year. We had 3, 3 game homestands against them that were done by June 9th. We had a two game series there early on, a four game one in July, and that horrid 3 game one there in late August.

cub killer
09-30-2009, 06:08 AM
This is good news. I've always hated coin tosses or "drawing of lots" to decide tiebreaks. On field results should always be used for tiebreakers.

Even if they need to use stats like run differential or runs scored on the road, as long as it's something accomplished by actually playing the game.

Scottiehaswheels
09-30-2009, 07:15 AM
Not quite sure how it's done now but wouldn't it be hilarious if the Twins and Tigers tie and Tigers get home field advantage for the tie-breaker. The whiners about the coin toss would then have had that opportunity for home field taken away from them because there wasn't a coin toss.

Oblong
09-30-2009, 08:13 AM
Not quite sure how it's done now but wouldn't it be hilarious if the Twins and Tigers tie and Tigers get home field advantage for the tie-breaker. The whiners about the coin toss would then have had that opportunity for home field taken away from them because there wasn't a coin toss.

That would be great but it cannot happen. before yesterday's DH, the season series was 5-9. If the Tigers swept the 4 game series then they would have already clinched the division. Since they split the DH then it's now 6-10 so the best the Tigers can do is 8-10, in which case they still clinch the division.

TommyJohn
09-30-2009, 09:06 AM
That would be great but it cannot happen. before yesterday's DH, the season series was 5-9. If the Tigers swept the 4 game series then they would have already clinched the division. Since they split the DH then it's now 6-10 so the best the Tigers can do is 8-10, in which case they still clinch the division.
And if (when, hopefully) that happens, I wonder if the crybaby bitches will cry that they are the true division champions because they won the season series. Waaaaaaah:whiner::whiner::whiner:

Oblong
09-30-2009, 09:12 AM
And if (when, hopefully) that happens, I wonder if the crybaby bitches will cry that they are the true division champions because they won the season series. Waaaaaaah:whiner::whiner::whiner:

Don't give them any ideas....

They are the turd that won't flush.

Danielgosox38
09-30-2009, 09:26 AM
Don't give them any ideas....

They are the turd that won't flush.


POTW. Love it.

ewokpelts
09-30-2009, 10:20 AM
That would be great but it cannot happen. before yesterday's DH, the season series was 5-9. If the Tigers swept the 4 game series then they would have already clinched the division. Since they split the DH then it's now 6-10 so the best the Tigers can do is 8-10, in which case they still clinch the division.Tiebreaker games get played on ANY tie. Twinkies had the season series last year vs the sox, but tbs paid a lot of money for the tiebreaker game rights, so tiebreaker games will be played.

If you remember in 2005, the red sox and yankees had identical records, but the old rules gave the yankees the division beacuse of thier season series win over the red sox. If the same scenario happned today, there would have been a one game playoff to determine the division winner.

Oblong
09-30-2009, 10:38 AM
Tiebreaker games get played on ANY tie. Twinkies had the season series last year vs the sox, but tbs paid a lot of money for the tiebreaker game rights, so tiebreaker games will be played.

If you remember in 2005, the red sox and yankees had identical records, but the old rules gave the yankees the division beacuse of thier season series win over the red sox. If the same scenario happned today, there would have been a one game playoff to determine the division winner.

My point is if the Tigers win the next 2 games against MN, they eliminate them from playoff contention, regardless of head to head records. Tigers would have 86 wins and MN would have 82, with only 3 games left in the season.

On Monday morning the season series was 5-9. In order for a tiebreaker game the teams would finish with the same record and whoever won the season series would host. Tigers had 84 wins, Twins 82. The Tigers could have tied the season series by winning all 4, but if they did that then they'd also eliminate the Twins, making head to head a moot point. They'd have 88 wins and MN would be stuck on 82, with only 3 games left.

VenturaFan23
09-30-2009, 10:47 AM
Don't give them any ideas....

They are the turd that won't flush.

Perfect analogy :thumbsup:

asindc
09-30-2009, 11:05 AM
Tiebreaker games get played on ANY tie. Twinkies had the season series last year vs the sox, but tbs paid a lot of money for the tiebreaker game rights, so tiebreaker games will be played.

If you remember in 2005, the red sox and yankees had identical records, but the old rules gave the yankees the division beacuse of thier season series win over the red sox. If the same scenario happned today, there would have been a one game playoff to determine the division winner.

NY and Boston did not play a tiebreaker game that year because both teams were guaranteed to make the playoffs regardless. The season series record only served to officially crown a division champ and determine playoff matchups. I believe that rule is still in effect.

jdm2662
09-30-2009, 11:17 AM
NY and Boston did not play a tiebreaker game that year because both teams were guaranteed to make the playoffs regardless. The season series record only served to officially crown a division champ and determine playoff matchups. I believe that rule is still in effect.

Yes, which is the same reason that the Sox clinched the division despite the fact the Indians still had a chance to tie them. When the Sox clinched, they had 96 wins. The most that both the Red Sox and Yankess could've won was 95. The Indians, at that point, still had a chance to reach 96 had they won their last four games. Of course, they didn't. So, it was moot...

ewokpelts
09-30-2009, 11:39 AM
NY and Boston did not play a tiebreaker game that year because both teams were guaranteed to make the playoffs regardless. The season series record only served to officially crown a division champ and determine playoff matchups. I believe that rule is still in effect.not so. especially when it concerns playoff seeding.
i do know that a 2 or 3 way tie there will be games to determine who gets what seed.

asindc
09-30-2009, 11:54 AM
not so. especially when it concerns playoff seeding.
i do know that a 2 or 3 way tie there will be games to determine who gets what seed.

When was the rule changed? It has always been true when there was a 3-way tie, but not 2-way tie within the division when the season series was won by one of the teams, as was the case in 2005 with the AL East.

ewokpelts
09-30-2009, 11:55 AM
When was the rule changed? It has always been true when there was a 3-way tie, but not 2-way tie within the division when the season series was won by one of the teams, as was the case in 2005 with the AL East.2006, when TBS paid a bunch of money to show tiebreaker games.

downstairs
09-30-2009, 12:24 PM
not so. especially when it concerns playoff seeding.
i do know that a 2 or 3 way tie there will be games to determine who gets what seed.

In this situation, you'd almost think a team would rather be the Wild Card than have to play another game on one of the very few days off before the playoffs.

Lorenzo Barcelo
09-30-2009, 12:38 PM
Lets say they end in a tie, and have to play the tiebreaker in the Dump Dome. When would they play it because the Vikings have MNF. :scratch:

Nellie_Fox
09-30-2009, 02:14 PM
Lets say they end in a tie, and have to play the tiebreaker in the Dump Dome. When would they play it because the Vikings have MNF. :scratch:The Twins fans were just discussing this at lunch. Apparently, they'd have to wait until Tuesday.

TommyJohn
09-30-2009, 06:37 PM
2006, when TBS paid a bunch of money to show tiebreaker games.
When in 2006? Because Minnesota and Detroit tied at 95-67, but Minnesota was the division champion. So this had to be after October of that year.

TDog
09-30-2009, 07:34 PM
This is very old news.

Of course, in some ways, a coin flip was more fair than using head-to-head records to determine home-field advantage for a playoff. Among division rivals, the same amount of games are played home and road. But they are played over the course of six months. Teams are very often different in April than they are in September. If you're looking at a playoff for a wild card spot between two teams in different divisions, there may well be a lopsided edge in whose home the games were played. This year, although the teams aren't contending for wild card spots, the Sox played three games in Oakland and six against the A's in Chicago. Last year, the Sox played seven games in St. Petersburg and played only three games against the Rays in Chicago.

Using head-to-head records to determine who would host a playoff can be just as arbitrary as a coin flip and more capricious.

Of course, if there is a tie for a division in which one of the teams would be the wild card, baseball doesn't go to the trouble of holding a playoff, which is probably for the best.

The coin-flip rule was changed after Joe Nathan whined last year and a lot of other people, many of whom wanted the Twins to prevail in the division, joined the chorus. I would like to see the Twins and Tigers tie this year, with the Tigers beating the Twins at the Metrodome.

asindc
09-30-2009, 10:06 PM
This is very old news.

Of course, in some ways, a coin flip was more fair than using head-to-head records to determine home-field advantage for a playoff. Among division rivals, the same amount of games are played home and road. But they are played over the course of six months. Teams are very often different in April than they are in September. If you're looking at a playoff for a wild card spot between two teams in different divisions, there may well be a lopsided edge in whose home the games were played. This year, although the teams aren't contending for wild card spots, the Sox played three games in Oakland and six against the A's in Chicago. Last year, the Sox played seven games in St. Petersburg and played only three games against the Rays in Chicago.

Using head-to-head records to determine who would host a playoff can be just as arbitrary as a coin flip and more capricious.

Of course, if there is a tie for a division in which one of the teams would be the wild card, baseball doesn't go to the trouble of holding a playoff, which is probably for the best.

The coin-flip rule was changed after Joe Nathan whined last year and a lot of other people, many of whom wanted the Twins to prevail in the division, joined the chorus. I would like to see the Twins and Tigers tie this year, with the Tigers beating the Twins at the Metrodome.

I disagree. A coin flip is pure chance, while playing each other is the most effective way to determine which team is more deserving. Injuries, call-ups, rain-outs, etc. are all part of the game that does not diminish any team's wins or losses. If I beat you more than you beat me, I earned the right to host the play-in game, period.

TDog
09-30-2009, 10:11 PM
I disagree. A coin flip is pure chance, while playing each other is the most effective way to determine which team is more deserving. Injuries, call-ups, rain-outs, etc. are all part of the game that does not diminish any team's wins or losses. If I beat you more than you beat me, I earned the right to host the play-in game, period.

Head-to-head records are often as dependent on blind fortune as are coin flips.

asindc
09-30-2009, 10:14 PM
Head-to-head records are often as dependent on blind fortune as are coin flips.

Fortune or not, if one team beats another more often than not, then they have earned more than the other team, relative to each other.

Big D
09-30-2009, 10:17 PM
Head-to-head records are often as dependent on blind fortune as are coin flips.

By that logic, a one-game playoff must be even more dependent on blind fortune then head-to-head records over nearly 20 games. Why not just do a coin flip to determine the playoff spot then?

doogiec
09-30-2009, 11:56 PM
This is very old news.

Of course, in some ways, a coin flip was more fair than using head-to-head records to determine home-field advantage for a playoff. Among division rivals, the same amount of games are played home and road. But they are played over the course of six months. Teams are very often different in April than they are in September. If you're looking at a playoff for a wild card spot between two teams in different divisions, there may well be a lopsided edge in whose home the games were played. This year, although the teams aren't contending for wild card spots, the Sox played three games in Oakland and six against the A's in Chicago. Last year, the Sox played seven games in St. Petersburg and played only three games against the Rays in Chicago.

Using head-to-head records to determine who would host a playoff can be just as arbitrary as a coin flip and more capricious.

Of course, if there is a tie for a division in which one of the teams would be the wild card, baseball doesn't go to the trouble of holding a playoff, which is probably for the best.

The coin-flip rule was changed after Joe Nathan whined last year and a lot of other people, many of whom wanted the Twins to prevail in the division, joined the chorus. I would like to see the Twins and Tigers tie this year, with the Tigers beating the Twins at the Metrodome.

A more logical way, in my opinion, would be to use overall record within the league as the first tiebreaker for HFA. The interleague schedules are completely arbitrary, and usually give one team an unfair advantage.

Last year, for example, the best team the Twins played was the Brewers, and they had two series against two terrible last place NL teams. The Sox played half their interleague games against eventual NL division champs, including six against the Cubs who led the NL in wins. Of course the Twins would never suggest this, since they went 14-4 against the NL. Swap out those series against Mil for two series against the Cubs, or swap out the series against Washington for a series against a NL team with a winning record, and the Twins probably don't even make it to a game 163.

ewokpelts
10-01-2009, 09:05 AM
I think the coin flip is better. And it's easier for the ballclubs affected to make travel plans, sell tickets, call back the day of game workers, ect.

if you have to wait a day or so before the POSSIBLE tiebreaker to do all this, it costs more money, and you run into the possibility of unforseen problems.

the 2008 sox knew they had the CHANCE for a tiebreaker, so the box office was ready to sell tickets as soon as game 162 ended, and the twins already knew to keep thier bags packed.

asindc
10-01-2009, 09:10 AM
When in 2006? Because Minnesota and Detroit tied at 95-67, but Minnesota was the division champion. So this had to be after October of that year.

I just heard this morning that the rule has, in fact, not been changed. Two teams in the same division that are tied in overall record and will make the playoffs do not play a tiebreaker game to determine the division winner. Head-to-head record is still the tiebreaker.

TDog
10-01-2009, 01:48 PM
A more logical way, in my opinion, would be to use overall record within the league as the first tiebreaker for HFA. The interleague schedules are completely arbitrary, and usually give one team an unfair advantage.

Last year, for example, the best team the Twins played was the Brewers, and they had two series against two terrible last place NL teams. The Sox played half their interleague games against eventual NL division champs, including six against the Cubs who led the NL in wins. Of course the Twins would never suggest this, since they went 14-4 against the NL. Swap out those series against Mil for two series against the Cubs, or swap out the series against Washington for a series against a NL team with a winning record, and the Twins probably don't even make it to a game 163.

Or you could flip a coin. It's just as fair. Even when baseball had balanced schedules when every team played every other team 22 times they did it that way. Today with the inbalance of schedules, with even teams within divisions playing different schedules, flipping a coin makes more sense than it did decades ago.

The only reason this coin flip was banished, of course, was because the White Sox won homefield advantage over the Twins -- the Twins holding the head to head advantage by virtue of winning two games out of nine in Chicago while the White Sox won only one game out of nine in the Metrodome. Any complaints before 2008 failed to gain any momentum. But because the Twins were being screwed by forcing to play in a conventional stadium instead of the aberration they called home, the sporting world was outraged enough to change the century-plus old tradition.

Nobody complained about the coin flip that gave the Cubs homefield advantage over the Giants in 1998 to decide the NL wild card. The Cubs won the season series, but if the Cubs had been awarded homefield based on winning the season series, would some have complained that the Cubs made one trip to San Francisco while the Giants made two trips to Chicago before game 163? Instead of getting screwed by schedule makers, the Giants got screwed by the coin flip.

Oblong
10-01-2009, 03:19 PM
The Twins and Tigers were not tied in 2006. Tigers had 95 wins, Twins 96. If they had tied then the Tigers would have been awarded the division based on record. So nothing was changed there. A tie breaker is not used to decide division/wild card when it's teams from the same division.

fram40
10-01-2009, 04:33 PM
I just heard this morning that the rule has, in fact, not been changed. Two teams in the same division that are tied in overall record and will make the playoffs do not play a tiebreaker game to determine the division winner. Head-to-head record is still the tiebreaker.

What I always thought unfair was a three-way tie in which two teams in one division tied for the division and are also tied with a third team that finished second in another division. The two divisional teams would play a one game playoff for the division title and the loser would go home. Because the one game playoff counts in the regular season standings, after the one game divisional playoff, the loser has one additional loss and is no longer tied with the third team. Thus, the third team wins the wild card spot.

TommyJohn
10-01-2009, 04:54 PM
The Twins and Tigers were not tied in 2006. Tigers had 95 wins, Twins 96. If they had tied then the Tigers would have been awarded the division based on record. So nothing was changed there. A tie breaker is not used to decide division/wild card when it's teams from the same division.
I thought they both had 95. Bad memory.