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HBaines03
09-13-2009, 01:21 PM
I for one really hope we revamp our bullpen next year. I am very disappointed in seeing our starters pitch very good games only to get a no decision due to our bullpens inept ability to get outs. I have 2 questions to be answered.
1. Will we keep Thornton, Jenks, Linebrink, Pena, & Carrasco or change out a few names?
2. Why is it that a few guys on our team (namely Pena & Jenks) appear to throw nothing but fastballs? I thought Jenks threw well at the start of the season using a fastball, change & curve but he is almost strictly fastball only now.

TDog
09-13-2009, 03:33 PM
I for one really hope we revamp our bullpen next year. I am very disappointed in seeing our starters pitch very good games only to get a no decision due to our bullpens inept ability to get outs. I have 2 questions to be answered.
1. Will we keep Thornton, Jenks, Linebrink, Pena, & Carrasco or change out a few names?
2. Why is it that a few guys on our team (namely Pena & Jenks) appear to throw nothing but fastballs? I thought Jenks threw well at the start of the season using a fastball, change & curve but he is almost strictly fastball only now.

Bullpens are fragile commodities, probably more fragile than starting rotations, which are fragile enough. You can't tell what most relievers will do based on their previous season. Last season, the bullpen was one of the reasons the Rays went to the World Series. This year, without many changes, it is one of the reasons the Rays won't come close to the postseason. Even some of the relievers who helped the Sox win the World Series in 2005 didn't help at all in 2006.

Do you want to improve your bullpen? A couple of offseason ago it meant going out signing Linebrink, but it required a multiyear deal. In 2007, You would certainly stay away from Aardsma, but he is having an excellent season this year.

The Yankees proved a few years ago that signing expensive free agent middle relievers is dumb baseball. And the Yankees can afford to waste more money than other teams.

Frater Perdurabo
09-13-2009, 03:44 PM
The best way to improve your bullpen is to improve your rotation - and improve your defense.

If your starting pitchers pitch deep into games (because they are good and because they get help from a good defense), that means that your relievers will get used less often. Relievers tend to be better if they are used less, and tend to get worse the more they are used.

TDog
09-13-2009, 06:37 PM
The best way to improve your bullpen is to improve your rotation - and improve your defense.

If your starting pitchers pitch deep into games (because they are good and because they get help from a good defense), that means that your relievers will get used less often. Relievers tend to be better if they are used less, and tend to get worse the more they are used.

I agree with this. The best bullpens generally are the ones used the least. Teams that get great bullpen workd wth their bullpen getting a lot of work generally have a poor bullpen the next year.

michned
09-13-2009, 07:07 PM
I know it's been talked about a bit, but I can see Kenny trading Jenks this off season, due to the money Bobby will be making and considering he's got Thornton to take over as closer.

oeo
09-14-2009, 09:42 AM
I for one really hope we revamp our bullpen next year. I am very disappointed in seeing our starters pitch very good games only to get a no decision due to our bullpens inept ability to get outs. I have 2 questions to be answered.
1. Will we keep Thornton, Jenks, Linebrink, Pena, & Carrasco or change out a few names?
2. Why is it that a few guys on our team (namely Pena & Jenks) appear to throw nothing but fastballs? I thought Jenks threw well at the start of the season using a fastball, change & curve but he is almost strictly fastball only now.

Linebrink will be back because we're not ridding ourselves of that contract. Thornton will be back because he's probably the best left-handed set up man in the game. Pena will be back because he's cheap and under contract for a few more years. No reason to not bring Carrasco back. Jenks, however, could be moved, IMO. Kenny feels the closer market is "fluid", so Jenks won't be getting a long term deal.

The best way to improve your bullpen is to improve your rotation - and improve your defense.

If your starting pitchers pitch deep into games (because they are good and because they get help from a good defense), that means that your relievers will get used less often. Relievers tend to be better if they are used less, and tend to get worse the more they are used.

We're rarely getting outs from anyone. That's not good. We have one of the better rotations in the league. It leads the league in QS and IP...so that's not the problem with the bullpen. And the rotation will only be better next year with Peavy in it.

Tragg
09-14-2009, 10:01 AM
The best way to improve your bullpen is to improve your rotation - and improve your defense.

Our rotation is top shelf; the defense is bottom of the barrel. I don't know of any plans to improve it, however.
As for the pen, Hudson for a year, and a couple of other lower-ceiling AAA players should be able to round it out. If Williams can get something good for Jenks, he'll probably trade him - but Jenks has been pretty darn dependable.

voodoochile
09-14-2009, 10:12 AM
I for one really hope we revamp our bullpen next year. I am very disappointed in seeing our starters pitch very good games only to get a no decision due to our bullpens inept ability to get outs. I have 2 questions to be answered.
1. Will we keep Thornton, Jenks, Linebrink, Pena, & Carrasco or change out a few names?
2. Why is it that a few guys on our team (namely Pena & Jenks) appear to throw nothing but fastballs? I thought Jenks threw well at the start of the season using a fastball, change & curve but he is almost strictly fastball only now.

Yes, I think those 5 will be back. I think Carrasco moves to more of a setup role and Torres takes over the long reliever slot to start the season. I think Nunez is the 7th guy. The only guy I have question marks about is Linebrink. I think Pena can be tweaked to be more effective.

I think Pena's problem is that he doesn't stay with his fast stuff enough. He seems to get tagged when he is 0-2 and tries to trick a guy and ends up leaving his changeup up in the zone and over the plate, but sometimes being forced to watch on computer with no captions, I don't get as much info as others do, so maybe I am missing something. I think he's a prime "Coop will fix him" candidate. :D:

I'm kind of excited about Nunez actually.

voodoochile
09-14-2009, 10:16 AM
Our rotation is top shelf; the defense is bottom of the barrel. I don't know of any plans to improve it, however.
As for the pen, Hudson for a year, and a couple of other lower-ceiling AAA players should be able to round it out. If Williams can get something good for Jenks, he'll probably trade him - but Jenks has been pretty darn dependable.

A full year of Rios in CF, an upgrade in RF and a second year of working together as well as a full spring training to get their skills down should improve the IF defense. I think doing nothing will lead to a much better defensive squad next year. Ramirez already is showing signs of figuring it out and Beckham won't be learning on the job. Between Nix and Getz they have a couple of solid 2B also. Remember the IF defense had three position players playing their first year at that position in the majors and one of them doing it for the first time ever. With maturity and experience that group should be fine, IMO.

Zisk77
09-14-2009, 12:12 PM
I for one really hope we revamp our bullpen next year. I am very disappointed in seeing our starters pitch very good games only to get a no decision due to our bullpens inept ability to get outs. I have 2 questions to be answered.
1. Will we keep Thornton, Jenks, Linebrink, Pena, & Carrasco or change out a few names?
2. Why is it that a few guys on our team (namely Pena & Jenks) appear to throw nothing but fastballs? I thought Jenks threw well at the start of the season using a fastball, change & curve but he is almost strictly fastball only now.


Breaking balls are a feel pitch. Jenks has been used so sporadically this year that I think he has had trouble getting a feel for his off speed. plus he sorta has fallen in love with his new toy...the sinker.

Madscout
09-14-2009, 12:25 PM
The best way to improve your bullpen is to improve your rotation - and improve your defense.

If your starting pitchers pitch deep into games (because they are good and because they get help from a good defense), that means that your relievers will get used less often. Relievers tend to be better if they are used less, and tend to get worse the more they are used.

I agree with this. The best bullpens generally are the ones used the least. Teams that get great bullpen workd wth their bullpen getting a lot of work generally have a poor bullpen the next year.
Agreed, excepting that I would revise the statement the best bullpens are the ones used least to, the best bullpens are those who are not overworked and have defined roles for guys.

Hitmen77
09-14-2009, 12:27 PM
Linebrink will be back because we're not ridding ourselves of that contract. Thornton will be back because he's probably the best left-handed set up man in the game. Pena will be back because he's cheap and under contract for a few more years. No reason to not bring Carrasco back. Jenks, however, could be moved, IMO. Kenny feels the closer market is "fluid", so Jenks won't be getting a long term deal.



We're rarely getting outs from anyone. That's not good. We have one of the better rotations in the league. It leads the league in QS and IP...so that's not the problem with the bullpen. And the rotation will only be better next year with Peavy in it.

Our rotation leads the league in QS and IP?

I never would have guessed that. Buehrle, Danks, and Floyd certainly give us a lot of quality starts, but after that?

Crede24Thome25
09-14-2009, 02:23 PM
I know it's been talked about a bit, but I can see Kenny trading Jenks this off season, due to the money Bobby will be making and considering he's got Thornton to take over as closer.

Thornton would be a kick ass closer.:bandance:

Tragg
09-14-2009, 09:06 PM
A full year of Rios in CF, an upgrade in RF and a second year of working together as well as a full spring training to get their skills down should improve the IF defense. I think doing nothing will lead to a much better defensive squad next year. Ramirez already is showing signs of figuring it out and Beckham won't be learning on the job. Between Nix and Getz they have a couple of solid 2B also. Remember the IF defense had three position players playing their first year at that position in the majors and one of them doing it for the first time ever. With maturity and experience that group should be fine, IMO.
Getting a quality RF will improve the outfield D.
But for the infield D, is Beckham really a 3B? We could move him to 2nd and get a 3B with some leather skills and that would improve the D. As for Alexei, I keep hearing conflicting reports. That would also free Getz (is he hurt again?) to be traded - he might bring us a player we need (young 2B for young 3B?) off of a decent rookie year. I'd rather use players to where they are best suited and trade excess.
But as of now, the infield isn't changing and despite more experience, I see the 2B limited defensively, the 3B not in his best spot an the SS questionable, experience or not.

Hitmen77
09-14-2009, 10:49 PM
What are the chances of Dotel returning next year?

voodoochile
09-14-2009, 11:00 PM
Getting a quality RF will improve the outfield D.
But for the infield D, is Beckham really a 3B? We could move him to 2nd and get a 3B with some leather skills and that would improve the D. As for Alexei, I keep hearing conflicting reports. That would also free Getz (is he hurt again?) to be traded - he might bring us a player we need (young 2B for young 3B?) off of a decent rookie year. I'd rather use players to where they are best suited and trade excess.
But as of now, the infield isn't changing and despite more experience, I see the 2B limited defensively, the 3B not in his best spot an the SS questionable, experience or not.

The only thing Beckham isn't doing well defensively is covering the line. I think that can be taught with work this spring. Remember he only got moved to 3B 20 games before getting called up.

I see a big change in Ramirez in the last month particularly the way he is putting more on his throws. He's also getting to more grounders again after a bit of a range slump after the All-Star break.

Nix appears to actually have more range than Getz but I expect a platoon next season.

Yes, I tend to look at things from an optimistic viewpoint, so I often question if what I am seeing is biased by my natural propensity to see the best in a situation, but I really do think our IF defense is going to be fine next year mostly due to the experience factor.