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Lip Man 1
09-10-2009, 11:26 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1762990,CST-SPT-sox10.article

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-10-white-sox-as-chicago-sep10,0,1324721.story

Lip

Hitmen77
09-10-2009, 12:00 PM
Interesting that he wants the Sox to get off to a better start than this year.....and yet at the start of this year, he fielded a team that had Josh Fields and Wise/Anderson in the starting lineup, Lillibridge and Betemit on the bench, and Jose/Colon/Richard filling 2 spots in the rotation.

That being said, for 2010 I agree with his expectation of a better start because I expect our opening day lineup to be much better than it was this year.

balke
09-10-2009, 12:14 PM
Interesting that he wants the Sox to get off to a better start than this year.....and yet at the start of this year, he fielded a team that had Josh Fields and Wise/Anderson in the starting lineup, Lillibridge and Betemit on the bench, and Jose/Colon/Richard filling 2 spots in the rotation.

That being said, for 2010 I agree with his expectation of a better start because I expect our opening day lineup to be much better than it was this year.

Yeah I wish he would've given up on a guy who was on pace for 40+ hr's a couple years back without giving him a legitimate shot.

Lillibridge looked like he'd be better than he is, and Jose/Richard were theoretically fine to start 4/5. Richard was a lock to do well there IMO.


Everything looks better in hindsight. There were some moves he could've made that would've been good, but who knew? There was no guarantee Washburn would be anywhere close to where he turned out. Other than that, I don't remember that much greatness coming out of free agency.

Betemit sucked, but he was gone within a month.

balke
09-10-2009, 12:18 PM
I'm kinda stuck to this team. With Hudson especially. I think this team could come back next year and compete for 1st all season. Peavy is going to make a big difference if he's healthy. A solid rotation should help this bullpen out a lot.

JB98
09-10-2009, 12:23 PM
With a five-man rotation of Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, Floyd and Garcia, they should be positioned to compete right from the start next year.

gobears1987
09-10-2009, 12:26 PM
With a five-man rotation of Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, Floyd and Garcia, they should be positioned to compete right from the start next year.
Yeah, our 1-4 are solid no matter how you look at it. What is really shocking me is Freddy. He has just been amazing since his first start. He had that one bad start against KC and has been dominating since then. The fact this team has only given him 1 win is sad. He should have at least 3Ws with the way he has been pitching. I really love that rotation next year.

JB98
09-10-2009, 12:31 PM
Yeah, our 1-4 are solid no matter how you look at it. What is really shocking me is Freddy. He has just been amazing since his first start. He had that one bad start against KC and has been dominating since then. The fact this team has only given him 1 win is sad. He should have at least 3Ws with the way he has been pitching. I really love that rotation next year.

Garcia has been a pleasant surprise. His effectiveness against both New York and Boston really opened my eyes. We can compete with that starting five. Whatever moves KW makes with the lineup and the bullpen, that's what will determine whether we can win next year. We still need some tweaks, but it's a great starting point to have the rotation already in line for next season.

DeuceUnit
09-10-2009, 12:38 PM
I don't think much hindsight is involved here. Kenny took a ton of risks with this team going into the start of the season. Wise is clearly not a major league player, let alone a leadoff man/centerfielder on a contending team. Colon and Contreras were pretty big gambles. Lillibridge was showing little promise in AAA in the Braves organization. Betemit wasn't very good on the Yankees. Getz had minimal minor league experience but has turned out to be pretty good and Fields hadn't looked good since the end of 2007, playing on a terrible team way out of contention.

Kenny has no one to blame but himself for the slow start this season. I think what he has done during the season has been great and this is a much better team. There are a couple areas he can improve on to really help this team this offseason. Let's hope he does because this team could be deadly in the playoffs next year with Buehrle, Peavy, Floyd and Danks.

kittle42
09-10-2009, 01:08 PM
I don't think much hindsight is involved here. Kenny took a ton of risks with this team going into the start of the season. Wise is clearly not a major league player, let alone a leadoff man/centerfielder on a contending team. Colon and Contreras were pretty big gambles. Lillibridge was showing little promise in AAA in the Braves organization. Betemit wasn't very good on the Yankees. Getz had minimal minor league experience but has turned out to be pretty good and Fields hadn't looked good since the end of 2007, playing on a terrible team way out of contention.

Exactly. No hindsight needed. Go back and look at the posts from back then.

Hitmen77
09-10-2009, 01:53 PM
Yeah I wish he would've given up on a guy who was on pace for 40+ hr's a couple years back without giving him a legitimate shot. Fields regressed significantly in 2008. No, I don't think the Sox had any other good options to fill 3B this year, but his poor play was not totally unexpected given his continued poor defense and high K rate in the minors.

Jose/Richard were theoretically fine to start 4/5.No they weren't. It was amazing that Jose was even able to play before July. He was a huge gamble. Richard had success in a few games last year, but it was limited. I think his level of play for us is pretty close in line with what should have been expected.

Richard was a lock to do well there IMO.Well, I can't dispute that this was your opinion, but I think few people thought he was a "lock" to do well this year.

Everything looks better in hindsight. There were some moves he could've made that would've been good, but who knew? It's not hindsight. Many things that fans were concerned about at the start of the season turned out as feared. I'm not talking about the dark clouds who predict failure for everything....I'm talking about legitimate concerns about legitimate holes.

I don't dispute that KW didn't have too many choices going into this year. He was stuck with huge contracts for Jose, Dye, Thome, etc. With the severe recession and loss of sponsor $$$, he had to dump payroll like Javy's contract and probably did not have the ability to pick up other established MLB talent.

But to dismiss our mediocre showing early on as a "slow start"? Please. This team played at about it's talent level at the start of the season. If I were KW, I'd be more pissed at how this team played so poorly after it got Beckham, Rios, and (the return of) Quentin.

I don't think much hindsight is involved here. Kenny took a ton of risks with this team going into the start of the season. Wise is clearly not a major league player, let alone a leadoff man/centerfielder on a contending team. Colon and Contreras were pretty big gambles. Lillibridge was showing little promise in AAA in the Braves organization. Betemit wasn't very good on the Yankees. Getz had minimal minor league experience but has turned out to be pretty good and Fields hadn't looked good since the end of 2007, playing on a terrible team way out of contention.

Kenny has no one to blame but himself for the slow start this season. I think what he has done during the season has been great and this is a much better team. There are a couple areas he can improve on to really help this team this offseason. Let's hope he does because this team could be deadly in the playoffs next year with Buehrle, Peavy, Floyd and Danks.

Exactly. No hindsight needed. Go back and look at the posts from back then.

Duece and Kittle, I agree 100%.

Bob G
09-10-2009, 01:55 PM
Don't forget about Pods - having him back next year will also help. I think this was Kenny's best move as far as acquisitions that have made a positive impact on this season.

gobears1987
09-10-2009, 02:01 PM
Exactly. No hindsight needed. Go back and look at the posts from back then.
Yep, most WSIers were picking us to be 3rd or 4th. I think with the team we started with, that was an accurate prediction. Of course midseason moves made this team better as we progressed, but I don't think many WSIers were satisfied with the opening day roster. I know I wasn't. I do have a feeling I'll be satisfied in April 2010 though.

spawn
09-10-2009, 02:02 PM
Yeah I wish he would've given up on a guy who was on pace for 40+ hr's a couple years back without giving him a legitimate shot.

Who are you talking about? Josh Fields? He did have a legitimate shot to take third base in ST last season, but offensively, if memory serves me correctly, he was terrible. Granted, Crede wasn't much better, but as a defensive third baseman Crede was light years better than Fields. So Fields had his shot. He just didn't take advantage of it.

kobo
09-10-2009, 02:03 PM
I also agree with Deuce and Kittle. KW can be disappointed all he wants, but he has no one to blame but himself for constructing the team as it was at the beginning of the season. I know he had to give some guys a shot (Fields, Getz, Anderson and to an extent Wise) but he gambled big time on Colon and Contreras, and lost.

gobears1987
09-10-2009, 02:04 PM
Who are you talking about? Josh Fields? he did have a legitimate shot to take third base in ST last season, but offensively, if memory serves me correctly, he was terrible. Granted, Crede wasn't much better, but as a defensive third baseman Crede was light years better than Fields. So Fields had his shot. He just didn't take advantage of it.
shhh... don't you know that every prospect who fails for the Sox is directly on Ozzie as Ozzie doesn't give them a chance to start. Please don't give me facts on how Fields was our starting 3rd baseman for 2 months this year and sucked it up. I don't want to hear facts.

I just love poking fun at the anti-Ozzie crowd.:redneck

gobears1987
09-10-2009, 02:05 PM
I also agree with Deuce and Kittle. KW can be disappointed all he wants, but he has no one to blame but himself for constructing the team as it was at the beginning of the season. I know he had to give some guys a shot (Fields, Getz, Anderson and to an extent Wise) but he gambled big time on Colon and Contreras, and lost.
The 4th and 5th starter roles are where we really did lose. That is the difference in this division.

Waysouthsider
09-10-2009, 02:15 PM
With the top four of next year's rotation, we should damn well get off to a good start....jeez....

Lip Man 1
09-10-2009, 02:19 PM
Kenny has always said to the media that when things go wrong to blame him. That's fair in this case.

The first six weeks of the seasons the roster was composed at times of players like:

"Corky” Miller, Jose Contreras, Brent Lillibridge, Josh Fields, Mike MacDougal, Lance Broadway, Dewayne Wise, Bartolo Colon, Brian Anderson, Jack Egbert and Wilson Betemit.

That's a significant portion of the 25 man roster. That club would have a hard time winning in Triple A. Kenny ignored (or more than likely was told to ignore) an off season market tilted in the buyer's favor.

He has to take some of the blame although again he was working under a severe handicap. I refuse to believe he honestly thought players like Miller (.176 career average), Wise (.214) and Betemit (.260). could play better than their careers had shown. If he honestly did, that is a scary proposition isn't it?

BigKlu59
09-10-2009, 02:38 PM
Good Start?.... Seem's like a givin in Baseball parlance..Win em in April and you dont end up chasing in September... We got all spades in starting pitching barring any 2 or 3 going down with "issues".. Bottom line will be big hits and timely hitting..The RISP debacle this year screwed up too many quality starts and tured our top 4 from 18-20 game winners into 12-16 game Ernie Broglios...

BigKlu59

Ranger
09-10-2009, 03:01 PM
Kenny has always said to the media that when things go wrong to blame him. That's fair in this case.

The first six weeks of the seasons the roster was composed at times of players like:

"Corky” Miller, Jose Contreras, Brent Lillibridge, Josh Fields, Mike MacDougal, Lance Broadway, Dewayne Wise, Bartolo Colon, Brian Anderson, Jack Egbert and Wilson Betemit.

That's a significant portion of the 25 man roster. That club would have a hard time winning in Triple A. Kenny ignored (or more than likely was told to ignore) an off season market tilted in the buyer's favor.

He has to take some of the blame although again he was working under a severe handicap. I refuse to believe he honestly thought players like Miller (.176 career average), Wise (.214) and Betemit (.260). could play better than their careers had shown. If he honestly did, that is a scary proposition isn't it?


Yes those guys were there, but not all at once. And most of them were not everyday players. And Josh Fields was the guy everyone wanted to be the opening day starter at 3rd just one year ago and was FURIOUS that Crede got the nod instead.

dickallen15
09-10-2009, 03:13 PM
Yes those guys were there, but not all at once. And most of them were not everyday players. And Josh Fields was the guy everyone wanted to be the opening day starter at 3rd just one year ago and was FURIOUS that Crede got the nod instead.

Most of them were. When DeWayne Wise is your opening day leadoff hitter, and when he's out of the line-up its Brent Lillibridge, the roster is more than a little flawed. Contreras wasn't even supposed to be there. Kenny was so high on Jeff Marquez. At least he apparently has seen his mistakes and is acquiring legit major leaguers now. Kenny said a couple years ago Fields would be an All Star, and when pressed whose jersey would be most popular in 2009 at Soxfest, he said Josh Fields. Maybe his hands were tied, maybe he was saving cash for guys like Peavy and Rios, but whatever it was, he didn't have the roster at the beginning of the year, and Ozzie admitted as much last week, to be considered a legitimate contender.

Andy T Clown
09-10-2009, 03:42 PM
With a five-man rotation of Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, Floyd and Garcia, they should be positioned to compete right from the start next year.

I'm with you!

Hitmen77
09-10-2009, 04:28 PM
The 4th and 5th starter roles are where we really did lose. That is the difference in this division.

That's a lot of games where we went with a sub-standard starting pitcher. Contreras, Colon, Richard, Torres....they all had some very good starts, but they were far and few in between. Also, these guys had trouble pitching more than 5 innings....and that led to wearing out our bullpen.

With a five-man rotation of Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, Floyd and Garcia, they should be positioned to compete right from the start next year.

The way Garcia has pitched for us is very promising indeed! I have no idea if he can hold up over the entire season, though.

Dan Hudson waiting in the wings has a lot of potential. But he came up through the system so fast, I doubt he's ready to assume MLB starting duties at the start of 2010.

The Immigrant
09-10-2009, 04:39 PM
The way Garcia has pitched for us is very promising indeed!

I actually expect him to improve as he gets a little more juice in that fastball of his. Let's not forget that he was pitching in Class A rehab assignments just a few weeks ago.

It's Dankerific
09-10-2009, 07:16 PM
I hope and pray Freddy isn't part of next year's rotation.

Tragg
09-10-2009, 07:25 PM
Kenny Williams didn't name Wise starter and annoint Wise his leadoff hitter, giving him the most at bats on the team.

Boondock Saint
09-10-2009, 07:29 PM
I hope and pray Freddy isn't part of next year's rotation.

Why? He's doing a great job.

JB98
09-10-2009, 07:46 PM
I hope and pray Freddy isn't part of next year's rotation.

I hope and pray he is. We could use a veteran who knows how to pitch to anchor that No. 5 spot. Hopefully, Freddy is that man and we don't have to go outside the organization for another starter.

If Freddy is our guy, resources can be spent this offseason to shore up the other weaknesses on this roster.

JB98
09-10-2009, 07:49 PM
That's a lot of games where we went with a sub-standard starting pitcher. Contreras, Colon, Richard, Torres....they all had some very good starts, but they were far and few in between. Also, these guys had trouble pitching more than 5 innings....and that led to wearing out our bullpen.



The way Garcia has pitched for us is very promising indeed! I have no idea if he can hold up over the entire season, though.

Dan Hudson waiting in the wings has a lot of potential. But he came up through the system so fast, I doubt he's ready to assume MLB starting duties at the start of 2010.

But, even if he only holds up half a season, that's another half season for Hudson to develop in the minors. I also doubt Hudson is ready to be a major-league starter on Opening Day 2010. But I do think he might be prepared to step in by midseason.

If Freddy holds up a whole year, great. But I still think we'll be OK if Freddy can give 20 starts next season. Then, after more seasoning at Charlotte, Hudson comes up to help us at the end of the year.

tsoxman
09-10-2009, 07:55 PM
Interesting that he wants the Sox to get off to a better start than this year.....and yet at the start of this year, he fielded a team that had Josh Fields and Wise/Anderson in the starting lineup, Lillibridge and Betemit on the bench, and Jose/Colon/Richard filling 2 spots in the rotation.

That was the one question I asked throughout the season....How could he have been serious about contending this year yet field a team with virtually zero bench depth and no reliable fourth and fifth starter?

Daver
09-10-2009, 07:59 PM
Yes those guys were there, but not all at once. And most of them were not everyday players. And Josh Fields was the guy everyone wanted to be the opening day starter at 3rd just one year ago and was FURIOUS that Crede got the nod instead.


I never wanted to see Josh Fields at third, but I also don't view baseball as an offense first sport, because it isn't.

tsoxman
09-10-2009, 08:06 PM
The 4th and 5th starter roles are where we really did lose. That is the difference in this division.
Rolling dice on the fifth starter's spot is one thing but the fourth and fifth spot? ....No way.

tsoxman
09-10-2009, 08:08 PM
With the top four of next year's rotation, we should damn well get off to a good start....jeez....
Not if the bullpen problems are not solved. Although I have learned that we usually get by until June until the bullpen collapses.

JB98
09-10-2009, 08:10 PM
Not if the bullpen problems are not solved. Although I have learned that we usually get by until June until the bullpen collapses.

A stronger rotation should help the bullpen. Aside from Burls, our rotation was awful in April and May.

It's Dankerific
09-10-2009, 08:11 PM
I hope and pray he is. We could use a veteran who knows how to pitch to anchor that No. 5 spot. Hopefully, Freddy is that man and we don't have to go outside the organization for another starter.

If Freddy is our guy, resources can be spent this offseason to shore up the other weaknesses on this roster.


But, even if he only holds up half a season, that's another half season for Hudson to develop in the minors. I also doubt Hudson is ready to be a major-league starter on Opening Day 2010. But I do think he might be prepared to step in by midseason.

If Freddy holds up a whole year, great. But I still think we'll be OK if Freddy can give 20 starts next season. Then, after more seasoning at Charlotte, Hudson comes up to help us at the end of the year.

Freddy's leash will be too long. Soft tossing righties don't go that far. he's only getting older.

Hudson has dominated every level of pitching he's been on. time to let him flourish. Not stick him behind another aging vet. I can't believe he'd do any worse than any other 5th starter options. This way, we can get him some experience and hopefully get a great rookie season out of him.

With the projected starting 4, its a perfect situation for Hudson.

In my judgment: Freddy won't be a contributor for a full season in 2010. Write it down, post it around, whatever. And by contributor, i mean pitching well. it wouldnt surprise me to see him pitch poorly for a whole season.

Boondock Saint
09-10-2009, 08:17 PM
Freddy's leash will be too long. Soft tossing righties don't go that far. he's only getting older.

Hudson has dominated every level of pitching he's been on. time to let him flourish. Not stick him behind another aging vet. I can't believe he'd do any worse than any other 5th starter options. This way, we can get him some experience and hopefully get a great rookie season out of him.

With the projected starting 4, its a perfect situation for Hudson.

In my judgment: Freddy won't be a contributor for a full season in 2010. Write it down, post it around, whatever. And by contributor, i mean pitching well. it wouldnt surprise me to see him pitch poorly for a whole season.

Hudson isn't ready to take on a full season. He's already thrown his career high in innings this year. I'm sure the Sox are going to want to ease him in.

JB98
09-10-2009, 08:19 PM
Freddy's leash will be too long. Soft tossing righties don't go that far. he's only getting older.

Hudson has dominated every level of pitching he's been on. time to let him flourish. Not stick him behind another aging vet. I can't believe he'd do any worse than any other 5th starter options. This way, we can get him some experience and hopefully get a great rookie season out of him.

With the projected starting 4, its a perfect situation for Hudson.

In my judgment: Freddy won't be a contributor for a full season in 2010. Write it down, post it around, whatever. And by contributor, i mean pitching well. it wouldnt surprise me to see him pitch poorly for a whole season.

It would stun me if he pitches poorly for a whole season. When healthy, he's always pitched well. Hell, he won 17 games for this club pitching injured in 2006.

It is not time to let Hudson flourish. I watched him pitch in person on Tuesday night. He's talented, but still has work to do. I'm optimistic about his future, but I think it is clear that Garcia is the better pitcher right now.

Garcia pitched extremely well TWICE against Boston and he pitched well against New York. He's got a low-90s fastball. He's not throwing 83. For the life of me, I can't see why you are so dead set against having Garcia on the team.

Do you honestly believe Dan Hudson could limit the New York Yankees to four hits over six innings? I don't. I like young Mr. Hudson a lot, but c'mon. He's still just a kid.

Tragg
09-10-2009, 09:05 PM
A year in the pen would be great for Hudson. We should be able to have a strong pen without trading any more young talent for ceiling middle relievers.

Frater Perdurabo
09-10-2009, 10:23 PM
I too think the rotation is set up for success in 2010.

A strong rotation should eat innings and will keep Ozzie from overusing the middle relief corps.

It would be tremendous if Garcia can fill the fifth stater spot for the very lost cost of his very inexpensive option.

I think KW can re-sign Dotel, and then let go of Dye and use that payroll to add a leadoff hitter and a left-handed run producer.

cheezheadsoxfan
09-10-2009, 11:49 PM
Kenny has always said to the media that when things go wrong to blame him. That's fair in this case.

The first six weeks of the seasons the roster was composed at times of players like:

"Corky” Miller, Jose Contreras, Brent Lillibridge, Josh Fields, Mike MacDougal, Lance Broadway, Dewayne Wise, Bartolo Colon, Brian Anderson, Jack Egbert and Wilson Betemit.

That's a significant portion of the 25 man roster. That club would have a hard time winning in Triple A. Kenny ignored (or more than likely was told to ignore) an off season market tilted in the buyer's favor.

He has to take some of the blame although again he was working under a severe handicap. I refuse to believe he honestly thought players like Miller (.176 career average), Wise (.214) and Betemit (.260). could play better than their careers had shown. If he honestly did, that is a scary proposition isn't it?


Man, that kinda says it all right there.:shakehead:

GoSox2K3
09-11-2009, 10:54 AM
Freddy's leash will be too long. Soft tossing righties don't go that far. he's only getting older.

Hudson has dominated every level of pitching he's been on. time to let him flourish. Not stick him behind another aging vet. I can't believe he'd do any worse than any other 5th starter options. This way, we can get him some experience and hopefully get a great rookie season out of him.

With the projected starting 4, its a perfect situation for Hudson.

In my judgment: Freddy won't be a contributor for a full season in 2010. Write it down, post it around, whatever. And by contributor, i mean pitching well. it wouldnt surprise me to see him pitch poorly for a whole season.

We're already complaining that the Sox are holding back Dan Hudson? :o: WOW!

spawn
09-11-2009, 10:59 AM
We're already complaining that the Sox are holding back Dan Hudson? :o: WOW!
It doesn't take long, does it?

jabrch
09-11-2009, 03:24 PM
It doesn't take long, does it?


If only we allowed the kid to advance a bit more this year...

Konerko05
09-11-2009, 03:27 PM
If only we allowed the kid to advance a bit more this year...

Five levels in one year just isn't enough.

Hitmen77
09-11-2009, 04:23 PM
If only we allowed the kid to advance a bit more this year...

My gut tells me that Ozzie hates him.

SCCWS
09-11-2009, 04:42 PM
Hudson has dominated every level of pitching he's been on. time to let him flourish. Not stick him behind another aging vet. I can't believe he'd do any worse than any other 5th starter options. This way, we can get him some experience and hopefully get a great rookie season out of him.

.

Hudson only pitched briefly ( 24 innings) in AAA. He had a 3.00era and allowed batters to hit .247. He did strikeout 20+. He may need more time there next year.