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View Full Version : Sox (Best single-season performance) All-Time Top 9 Lineup


PaleHoser
09-09-2009, 03:56 PM
Link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/fan_forum/all_time_nine/index.jsp?c_id=cws) for choices on whitesox.com.

My lineup:

Ray Durham, 2B
Luke Appling, SS
Frank Thomas, 1B
Albert Belle, LF
Jim Thome, DH
Magglio Ordonez, RF
Robin Ventura, 3B
Carlton Fisk, C
Rudy Law, CF

I wish there were some better choices for CF, but Mays, Cobb, DiMaggio, Mantle, Snider, all played for somebody else.

EDIT: Added explanation for the link. Lance Johnson wasn't a choice for CF, though I wish he was. I'd definitely go with him over Rudy Law.

hi im skot
09-09-2009, 04:03 PM
Durham over Fox?

EDIT: Maybe Lance Johnson in CF?

Nellie_Fox
09-09-2009, 04:05 PM
Link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/fan_forum/all_time_nine/index.jsp?c_id=cws)

My lineup:

Ray Durham, 2B
Luke Appling, SS
Frank Thomas, 1B
Albert Belle, LF
Jim Thome, DH
Magglio Ordonez, RF
Robin Ventura, 3B
Carlton Fisk, C
Rudy Law, CFDurham for 2B when the Sox have two Hall of Famers at that position? I don't think so. Eddie Collins or Nellie Fox.

kittle42
09-09-2009, 04:08 PM
If you actually click the link, it is for certain single-season performances. Each player has a year and stats from that year next to them. So don't be that quick to jump down OP's throat!

asindc
09-09-2009, 04:10 PM
Nellie Fox or Eddie Collins, 2B xxxxRay Durhamxxxx (Durham? really?)
Luke Appling, SS
Dick Allen, 1B xxxxFrank Thomasxxxxx (see DH)
Albert Belle, LF
Frank Thomas, DH xxxxJim Thomexxxx
Magglio Ordonez, RF
Robin Ventura, 3B
Carlton Fisk, C
Shoeless Joe Jackson, CF xxxxRudy Lawxxxx

EDIT: I just clicked the link. Dick Allen should be a choice at 1B. I'll repeat: Durham? Really? I don't know why Eddie Collins is not listed at 2B, but he should be. Rudy Law should not see the field with Jackson, Belle, Ordonez, and Raines being better choices. Frank was better as a DH than a 1B.

KnightSox
09-09-2009, 04:14 PM
Link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/fan_forum/all_time_nine/index.jsp?c_id=cws) for choices on whitesox.com.

My lineup:

Ray Durham, 2B
Luke Appling, SS
Frank Thomas, 1B
Albert Belle, LF
Jim Thome, DH
Magglio Ordonez, RF
Robin Ventura, 3B
Carlton Fisk, C
Rudy Law, CF

:scratch:

hi im skot
09-09-2009, 04:18 PM
EDIT: Added explanation for the link. Lance Johnson wasn't a choice for CF, though I wish he was. I'd definitely go with him over Rudy Law.

If you actually click the link, it is for certain single-season performances. Each player has a year and stats from that year next to them. So don't be that quick to jump down OP's throat!

Good call. I'm voting Uribe for everything.

Nellie_Fox
09-09-2009, 04:18 PM
If you actually click the link, it is for certain single-season performances. Each player has a year and stats from that year next to them. So don't be that quick to jump down OP's throat!But they are listed as HIS choices. Even comparing years, you have to consider eras, and Fox was MVP in 1959. Durham was never even considered for MVP.

kittle42
09-09-2009, 04:21 PM
But they are listed as HIS choices. Even comparing years, you have to consider eras, and Fox was MVP in 1959. Durham was never even considered for MVP.

He was in all our hearts!

illinifan1368
09-09-2009, 04:34 PM
I love to watch Ray run.

ike from nj
09-09-2009, 04:37 PM
rudy law?

how about jim landis in cf?

gobears1987
09-09-2009, 04:46 PM
I voted:

Aparicio SS
Fox 2B
Thomas 1B
Ventura 3B
Dye OF
Baines DH
Jackson OF
Minoso OF
Fisk C

beasly213
09-09-2009, 04:48 PM
Mine.

1. SS Louis Aparicio
2. 2B Nellie Fox
3. 1B Frank Thomas
4. CF Joe Jackson
5. RF Jermaine Dye
6. DH Jim Thome
7. LF Minnie Minoso
8. 3B Robin Ventura
9. C Carlton Fisk

MrT27
09-09-2009, 04:51 PM
Guys actually click the link. Its for the best single season performance at each position, not the all time best White Sox at the position. Compared to the other single season numbers at 2B, Durhams may be the best.

BringBackBlkJack
09-09-2009, 05:03 PM
The threat title is misleading. The poll asks you to determine the best single-season hitting performances by position, not the top 9 of all-time.

With that said, my picks:

1B - Big Hurt
2B - Nellie Fox
SS - Luke Appling
3B - Robin Ventura
C - Carlton Fisk
DH - Jim Thome
OF - Albert Belle
OF - Magglio Ordonez
OF - Shoeless Joe

These men would definitely NOT be my choices for top 9 of all-time.

LITTLE NELL
09-09-2009, 05:06 PM
Players that I saw play.

SS Luis Aparicio
2B Nelson Fox
LF Minnie Minoso
1B Frank Thomas
RF Magglio Ordonez
DH Harold Baines
C Carlton Fisk
3B Robin Ventura
CF Jim Landis

getonbckthr
09-09-2009, 05:17 PM
Based on how they set it up on the site:

c- Fisk
1B- Thomas
2B- ALexei
3B- Ventura
SS-Appling
DH- Thome
OF- Belle, Dye, Ordonez

spawn
09-09-2009, 05:32 PM
I've edited the thread title so it isn't as confusing...although it probably still is. :tongue:

PennStater98r
09-09-2009, 05:45 PM
The problem with the link is that it does not have some key statistics listed - such as number of strikeouts - that alone makes me choose Fox over Durham - OBP or SLG or any defensive statistics...

I went with the following - knowing a little more than what's listed under the HR, RBI, SB and Avg columns:

1. 1936 Luke Appling (R) SS – Had a range factor of 5.77 in ’36 and hit .388 with a .470 OBP in 138 games
2. 1920 Joe Jackson (L) RF – moved him to RF since he’d played there earlier in his career and hit .382
3. 1993 Frank Thomas (R) 1B – It the power with the BB and the lack of Ks – though I’d much rather have the 1994 season
4. 1998 Albert Belle (L) LF – 100 extra base hits landed him in the clean-up spot
5. 2006 Jim Thome (L) DH – Clear cut from the choices
6. 1983 Carlton Fisk (R) C – Mainly took him to get another right handed bat in the line-up – oh and should have been MVP
7. 1996 Robin Ventura (L) 3B – D is great with a good bat with a lot of pop
8. 2004 Aaron Rowand (R) CF – Grabbed him for his glove and the pop he has in his bat
9. 1959 Nellie Fox (L) 2B – Only recorded 13 strikeouts all season – not to mention a GG – wanted the double leadoff man in the 9 slot

This team has a high OBP - which was the main thing that I looked at. I also considered how many times each of these players struck out as well as their D.

I know Appling's not known for his D - but he had a great range factor in '36 and between him, Fox and Ventura - the infield looks great.

Rowand plays a decent enough CF and I think it's okay to move Shoeless Joe into RF... thought it is a slow team!

Thoughts? Certainly no one can deny the thunder in the line-up.

DickAllen72
09-09-2009, 05:50 PM
Link (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/fan_forum/all_time_nine/index.jsp?c_id=cws) for choices on whitesox.com.

My lineup:

Ray Durham, 2B
Luke Appling, SS
Frank Thomas, 1B
Albert Belle, LF
Jim Thome, DH
Magglio Ordonez, RF
Robin Ventura, 3B
Carlton Fisk, C
Rudy Law, CF

I wish there were some better choices for CF, but Mays, Cobb, DiMaggio, Mantle, Snider, all played for somebody else.

EDIT: Added explanation for the link. Lance Johnson wasn't a choice for CF, though I wish he was. I'd definitely go with him over Rudy Law.My ALL-TIME Sox Lineup would go something like:

Aparicio SS
Fox 2B
Allen 1B
Thomas DH
Ordonez RF
Carlos May LF
Ventura 3B
Pierzynski C
Lemon CF

Aaarghhh....How could I forget Minoso??? Pencil him in in place of May.

DSpivack
09-09-2009, 08:40 PM
I was a big fan of Maggs when he was here and loved chanting "o-e-o", but no way was any single season of his on the Sox better than Dye's 2006 performance.

Brian26
09-09-2009, 09:37 PM
But they are listed as HIS choices. Even comparing years, you have to consider eras, and Fox was MVP in 1959. Durham was never even considered for MVP.

The survey is inherently flawed in that it only lists offensive stats. Most people won't consider the different eras when comparing Ray Ray's 17 HRs in 2000 vs. Nellie's 2 HRs in his '59 MVP season.

russ99
09-09-2009, 10:16 PM
1. LF - Podsednik (2005 season includes walk-off HR in the World Series)
2. 2B - Fox
3. CF - Jackson
4. 1B - Thomas
5. RF - Dye
6. 3B - Melton (HR leader, HR's were much tougher to come by in 1972)
7. DH - Baines
8. C - Fisk
9. SS - Appling, but I thought Aparacio had much better seasons for us than in 59...

gregoriop
09-09-2009, 11:11 PM
I probably would not have picked '93 as Frank's best year.

Noneck
09-09-2009, 11:21 PM
Dick Allens MVP 1972 year not listed? I ignored the rest of the poll after that.

beasly213
09-10-2009, 12:49 AM
The problem with the link is that it does not have some key statistics listed - such as number of strikeouts - that alone makes me choose Fox over Durham - OBP or SLG or any defensive statistics...

I went with the following - knowing a little more than what's listed under the HR, RBI, SB and Avg columns:

1. 1936 Luke Appling (R) SS – Had a range factor of 5.77 in ’36 and hit .388 with a .470 OBP in 138 games
2. 1920 Joe Jackson (L) RF – moved him to RF since he’d played there earlier in his career and hit .382
3. 1993 Frank Thomas (R) 1B – It the power with the BB and the lack of Ks – though I’d much rather have the 1994 season
4. 1998 Albert Belle (L) LF – 100 extra base hits landed him in the clean-up spot
5. 2006 Jim Thome (L) DH – Clear cut from the choices
6. 1983 Carlton Fisk (R) C – Mainly took him to get another right handed bat in the line-up – oh and should have been MVP
7. 1996 Robin Ventura (L) 3B – D is great with a good bat with a lot of pop
8. 2004 Aaron Rowand (R) CF – Grabbed him for his glove and the pop he has in his bat
9. 1959 Nellie Fox (L) 2B – Only recorded 13 strikeouts all season – not to mention a GG – wanted the double leadoff man in the 9 slot

This team has a high OBP - which was the main thing that I looked at. I also considered how many times each of these players struck out as well as their D.

I know Appling's not known for his D - but he had a great range factor in '36 and between him, Fox and Ventura - the infield looks great.

Rowand plays a decent enough CF and I think it's okay to move Shoeless Joe into RF... thought it is a slow team!

Thoughts? Certainly no one can deny the thunder in the line-up.

I love me some baseball stats.

fram40
09-10-2009, 01:29 AM
I was a big fan of Maggs when he was here and loved chanting "o-e-o", but no way was any single season of his on the Sox better than Dye's 2006 performance.

2002 - Maggs had a better average, more RBIs, more runs scored. Dye had more home runs.

Some of the choices are a bit ridiculous. How can Dick Allen's 1972 season not be listed, as well as Frank's 1994 season?

Based on the stats shown - Zeke Bonura had the best season at first base - easily best avg, most RBIs and runs scored. Fewer home runs - but given the better RBI totals, Bonura clearly had the beast season of the five listed.

PKalltheway
09-10-2009, 02:13 AM
My choices were:

1B: Frank Thomas, 1993
2B: Nellie Fox, 1959
SS: Luke Appling, 1936
3B: Robin Ventura, 1996
C: Carlton Fisk, 1983
DH: Jim Thome, 2006
OF: Albert Belle, 1998
OF: Jermaine Dye, 2006
OF: Magglio Ordonez, 2002

TDog
09-10-2009, 02:31 AM
Dick Allen in 1972 had probably the greatest offensive season, relative to the league and relative to the success of his team, of any player in White Sox history. He would have led the league in home runs even if he didn't hit two inside-the-park home runs in one game. Maybe the stats aren't there, but he was so dominant that the MVP vote seemed just a formality that year, despite the Sox finishing second.

That year, Allen was listed as an outfielder on the All-Star ballot, but he was playing first base. Because he was so obviously the best offensive player in the league, the commissioner's office counted the outfield votes for Allen as first-base votes. I wasn't taking any chances, writing Allen in at first and punching him in for the outfield.

Allen didn't have a great season on a losing team. He carried the Sox offensively to the league's second best record two years after they finished with the worst record in franchise history.

Frank Thomas had some awesome seasons as well, certainly more than the one season Allen did. But he was a great DH, and Jim Thome never came close to having a White Sox season comparable to Thomas or Allen's best.

asindc
09-10-2009, 10:33 AM
Dick Allens MVP 1972 year not listed? I ignored the rest of the poll after that.

What he said. One of the top three all-time single season performances by a Sox player not even listed in this poll? And Thomas' 1994 season not listed? That makes this poll illegitimate on its face.

Carolina Kenny
09-10-2009, 12:34 PM
Many, many better options in CF including:

Al Simmons
Happy Felsch
Minnie Minoso
Jim Landis
Johnny Mostil

Bobby Thigpen
09-10-2009, 12:46 PM
Hey may not have been a good guy, but to not choose Albert Belle based on single season performance is just ridiculous.

DSpivack
09-10-2009, 01:09 PM
Dick Allen in 1972 had probably the greatest offensive season, relative to the league and relative to the success of his team, of any player in White Sox history. He would have led the league in home runs even if he didn't hit two inside-the-park home runs in one game. Maybe the stats aren't there, but he was so dominant that the MVP vote seemed just a formality that year, despite the Sox finishing second.

That year, Allen was listed as an outfielder on the All-Star ballot, but he was playing first base. Because he was so obviously the best offensive player in the league, the commissioner's office counted the outfield votes for Allen as first-base votes. I wasn't taking any chances, writing Allen in at first and punching him in for the outfield.

Allen didn't have a great season on a losing team. He carried the Sox offensively to the league's second best record two years after they finished with the worst record in franchise history.

Frank Thomas had some awesome seasons as well, certainly more than the one season Allen did. But he was a great DH, and Jim Thome never came close to having a White Sox season comparable to Thomas or Allen's best.

Frank Thomas' 1994 season is just as good in those categories you mention.

FarmerAndy
09-10-2009, 01:10 PM
Frank was better as a DH than a 1B.

Um, no.

Frank Thomas career:
@ 1B - .337 / .453 / .625
@ DH - .275 / .394 / .505


And it's not just the latter part of his career dragging those DH numbers down. If you look at the splits from any of his big years in the 90's, you'll see that he almost always put up way bigger numbers when he played 1B.

fram40
09-10-2009, 01:47 PM
Frank Thomas' 1994 season is just as good in those categories you mention.

It is almost impossible to compare the two seasons - '94 Thomas and '72 Allen. They may be the two greatest offensive seasons in Sox history. Using OPS+ they are. Thomas at 211 and Allen at 199. Albert Belle's OPS+ was only 171.

Seems to me that all three seasons must somehow make the final list.

I also find it hard to believe that Ray Durham has two of the top three seasons for runs scored in Sox history.

PennStater98r
09-10-2009, 05:05 PM
I also find it hard to believe that Ray Durham has two of the top three seasons for runs scored in Sox history.

Is it really so hard to believe? I mean you did have guys like Frank Thomas, Albert Belle and Robin Ventura hitting behind him.

fram40
09-10-2009, 07:02 PM
Is it really so hard to believe? I mean you did have guys like Frank Thomas, Albert Belle and Robin Ventura hitting behind him.

in the sense that the Sox have been around over 100 years and Ray Durham was - at best - a solid ballplayer, yes it is hard to believe. If someone asked me that question, I don't think I would ever answer Ray Durham.

I suppose it means that the Sox have never been a very good offensive team and that Durham played at the apex of an offensive era. He also batted in front of the greatest run producer the Sox have ever had and played on two of the best offensive teams the Sox have ever had. 1998 and 2000 are both top ten seasons for scoring runs for the team (both RPG and total runs scored)

Also, the Sox have not had many great offensive players. But I would have assumed that someone like Frank or Aparicio or Appling or Raines or Rudy Law would have scored more runs in a career year than Ray Durham.

By the way, Durham's two best years were 1998 and 2000. For 2000, there was no Belle and Ventura to drive him in. There was Frank, Maggs, and Konerko. So maybe it does make sense. 1998 and 2000 are two of the best years the Sox have had offensively - as a team.

TDog
09-10-2009, 08:52 PM
Frank Thomas' 1994 season is just as good in those categories you mention.

If you were limited in arguing which would be the first in this pointless discussion, your pointless argument would have a semblance of a point. The fact is, on such a mythical team, you could easily play Thomas at DH. Essentially, the argument isn't between Thomas in either of his MVP years or Allen in his.

Indeed, had the 1994 season played out, the White Sox would have probably finished second behind the Indians (who were just a game behind when the season ended), just as the 1972 White Sox finished second behind the A's. Carlos May had the best season of his career to go along with Allen in 1972, but Bill Melton was out with a back injury. The White Sox had a much stronger lineup in 1994.

You couldn't leave Frank Thomas off of such a list. But I don't see how you could leave Dick Allen off the list either.

DSpivack
09-10-2009, 09:29 PM
If you were limited in arguing which would be the first in this pointless discussion, your pointless argument would have a semblance of a point. The fact is, on such a mythical team, you could easily play Thomas at DH. Essentially, the argument isn't between Thomas in either of his MVP years or Allen in his.

Indeed, had the 1994 season played out, the White Sox would have probably finished second behind the Indians (who were just a game behind when the season ended), just as the 1972 White Sox finished second behind the A's. Carlos May had the best season of his career to go along with Allen in 1972, but Bill Melton was out with a back injury. The White Sox had a much stronger lineup in 1994.

You couldn't leave Frank Thomas off of such a list. But I don't see how you could leave Dick Allen off the list either .

Dick Allen was before my time, but I can't argue with that.

What makes you so sure the Sox wouldn't have won the division in 1994? They had one of the best records in MLB at the time.

asindc
09-10-2009, 10:57 PM
If you were limited in arguing which would be the first in this pointless discussion, your pointless argument would have a semblance of a point. The fact is, on such a mythical team, you could easily play Thomas at DH. Essentially, the argument isn't between Thomas in either of his MVP years or Allen in his.

Indeed, had the 1994 season played out, the White Sox would have probably finished second behind the Indians (who were just a game behind when the season ended), just as the 1972 White Sox finished second behind the A's. Carlos May had the best season of his career to go along with Allen in 1972, but Bill Melton was out with a back injury. The White Sox had a much stronger lineup in 1994.

You couldn't leave Frank Thomas off of such a list. But I don't see how you could leave Dick Allen off the list either.

I don't think that was "probable" at all, considering that the Sox had the superior pitching staff.

I think Allen's 72 season and Frank's 94 season are 1 and 1A in this discussion, take your pick which to list first.

Johnny Mostil
09-11-2009, 12:18 AM
Dick Allens MVP 1972 year not listed? I ignored the rest of the poll after that.

It was listed when I looked at the link (along with Bonura in '36, Konerko in '04, Robinson in '51, and Thomas in '93).

I found the number of '06 seasons listed (Crede, Dye, Pierzynski, and Thome) to be depressing. Not arguing with the nominations, just depressed about the end result . . .

SoxNation05
09-11-2009, 04:42 PM
Not by best Season

SS Luis Aparicio
2B Nellie Fox
CF Joe Jackson
DH Frank Thomas
RF Albert Belle
1B Dick Allen
3B Robin Ventura
LF Carlos May
C Carlton Fisk


Utility: BA and Pablo Ozuna

RCWHITESOX
09-11-2009, 05:05 PM
I voted:

Aparicio SS
Fox 2B
Thomas 1B
Ventura 3B
Dye OF
Baines DH
Jackson OF
Minoso OF
Fisk C

I agree except I would have Lollar at Catcher