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View Full Version : Official GO GAVIN! 9/05 Postgame


GoGoCrede
09-05-2009, 05:29 PM
You're awesome, #34.

SoxGirl4Life
09-05-2009, 05:30 PM
4 in a row. Lets keep this going!

JermaineDye05
09-05-2009, 05:32 PM
JD gets Gavin with the shaving cream pie, that was pretty funny I must say. One of the best.

CanBuehrleWait
09-05-2009, 05:32 PM
Okay rays helped you out again... Its your turn tonight.

GlassSox
09-05-2009, 05:33 PM
Gavin is the man and enough offense, excellent.

October26
09-05-2009, 05:33 PM
What a game Gavin Floyd pitched today - wow! This was another great win for our Sox. Keep it going, boys! :bandance:

GoGoCrede
09-05-2009, 05:35 PM
Career high 11 K's! I was biting my nails there.

southside rocks
09-05-2009, 05:37 PM
This team has played so much better since Greg Walker was fired!

Glad Floyd signed that multi-year deal, it's nice to look forward to him in the rotation for the next few years.

Dan H
09-05-2009, 05:38 PM
Nice to see Gavin get a "W" for his efforts. He should have more. Wish the team could have started doing this two weeks ago.

johnnyg83
09-05-2009, 05:39 PM
love Gavin ... hard to believe he had a 7.70+ ERA this year.


And Getz ... 22 SBs and just 2 CS.

slavko
09-05-2009, 05:43 PM
love Gavin ... hard to believe he had a 7.70+ ERA this year.


And Getz ... 22 SBs and just 2 CS.

Getz...does any other Sox rookie have a higher BA than him? That's the Floyd of nasty stuff and nastier location I want to see here for a loooong time.

oeo
09-05-2009, 05:44 PM
Obviously this team has quit...

Our rotation is going to be tough to beat the next few years.

A little help from the Rays tonight would be nice.

Red Barchetta
09-05-2009, 05:44 PM
Nice win. However it was hard listening to the FOX broadcast monkeys calling the game. They jinxed the perfect game as far back as the 4th inning by talking about Floyd pitching a perfect game every at bat and comparing him to Beuhrle. :angry:

Martinigirl
09-05-2009, 05:44 PM
That was an awesome game. Watching the clip of MB and Gavin in the dugout was priceless. And I don't think I have seen JD that animated in a lonnnggg time.

Now hopefully nothing serious is wrong with Gordon.

JermaineDye05
09-05-2009, 05:49 PM
Obviously this team has quit...

Our rotation is going to be tough to beat the next few years.

A little help from the Rays tonight would be nice.

There's no denying this. One thing also that's nice to note, this team could have 4 players next year with 30 SB potential (Alexei, Getz, Beckham, Rios). Beckham hasn't attempted too many steals but he does have the speed, as does Alexei but he has to learn to get better jumps. It could be 5 if Kenny plans on adding another piece this offseason.

JB98
09-05-2009, 05:49 PM
Really nice performance by the Sox today. In the big picture, I fear this winning streak is too little, too late. But it is good to see the team playing well against Boston.

Floyd struggled the first six weeks of the season, but I feel he has been our best starting pitcher since about late May. Brilliant today. Just outstanding.

Getz is playing well. Having him back in the lineup has made a difference. No matter how the season turns out, we have learned this year that both Beckham and Getz can play at the big-league level.

WhiteSox1989
09-05-2009, 05:50 PM
Great game again. Kotsay is proving to be quite useful. And Gavin. What a stud.

I am convinced I have lucky jeans, by the way.

voodoochile
09-05-2009, 05:50 PM
Great effort by Mr. Floyd. Good job by the bats, especially in the first inning to not let Wakefield completely dictate the game like he did in Boston. Much better plan of attack today.

Tomorrow's game is on TV too which is a real cool birthday present for Doub. Well it's a nice present for me on Doub's birthday...:D:

:soxwin:

:)

JB98
09-05-2009, 05:54 PM
Great game again. Kotsay is proving to be quite useful. And Gavin. What a stud.

I am convinced I have lucky jeans, by the way.

Good point. He's done a nice job since coming over. A pleasant surprise.

DrCrawdad
09-05-2009, 05:55 PM
I always enjoy when The Sox beat the Other Sox! Their fans, if they're not as obnoxious as Cubbie fans then they are not far behind.

DrCrawdad
09-05-2009, 05:57 PM
Remember how people ripped KW for trading for Gavin Floyd?

GoGoCrede
09-05-2009, 05:57 PM
Remember how people ripped KW for trading for Gavin Floyd?

Gavin took a lot of abuse when he struggled early this season. I'm pleased to see he weathered the rough start.

SoxGirl4Life
09-05-2009, 05:59 PM
Great game again. Kotsay is proving to be quite useful. And Gavin. What a stud.

I am convinced I have lucky jeans, by the way.

Don't even THINK about changing the jeans.

GoGoCrede
09-05-2009, 06:00 PM
Don't even THINK about changing the jeans.


....and buy some Febreeze.

WSox597
09-05-2009, 06:02 PM
Great game, I love seeing the White Sox win on national TV!

Heck of a game by Gavin Floyd. He's pitched much better than his record shows.

Timely hitting, moving the runners, who are these guys? :D:

Keep it going, guys. The Bosox got help today from the O's in the wild card race.

Go Tampa Bay!

Madscout
09-05-2009, 06:06 PM
Gavin was just awesome today. Changing speeds, changing sides of the plate, up down, etc. and when he was wild, he was wild out of the plate. Superb.

ChiSox81
09-05-2009, 06:08 PM
When this team is on they are pretty much unbeatable. Lets just keep it rolling boys...

markopat
09-05-2009, 06:20 PM
Nice win! Let's keep it rolling!

Danielgosox38
09-05-2009, 06:28 PM
That was an awesome game. Watching the clip of MB and Gavin in the dugout was priceless. And I don't think I have seen JD that animated in a lonnnggg time.

Now hopefully nothing serious is wrong with Gordon.


What was going on in the dugout?

SI1020
09-05-2009, 06:52 PM
Remember how people ripped KW for trading for Gavin Floyd? I plead guilty. In 50+ years of rooting for the Sox I was never more wrong about any of our players than I was totally wrong about Gavin Floyd. Confession is good for the soul, and helps to prevent one for getting a big head. Now all I want out of this year is for the team to finish with a winning record. Next year could be very special. At least four good starters with differing enough styles to keep the hitters off balance. Wipe the slate clean for Rios. I'm definitely looking forward to it.

thomas35forever
09-05-2009, 07:13 PM
Nice to see them come out and play well against Boston in the first two games. We may not make the playoffs, but we can definitely have an impact on the race for the division and the Wild Card.

KMcMahon817
09-05-2009, 07:14 PM
This race is far from over if they keep playing like this.

Brian26
09-05-2009, 07:17 PM
I plead guilty. In 50+ years of rooting for the Sox I was never more wrong about any of our players than I was totally wrong about Gavin Floyd. Confession is good for the soul, and helps to prevent one for getting a big head.

Gavin's put together two good years, and his best days are ahead of him.

However, let's be honest. It's much easier not to be critical of the trade based on the performance and health of Freddy over the past three years. Friday's win was only his third major league victory since Kenny traded him after '06.

If Freddy would have pitched solidly and stayed healthy in '07 and re-signed for '08 (helping the Phillies to the World Series last year), I don't doubt for a moment that there would be a large FOFG fan club around here (especially last year when Javy was melting down for the stretch run).

GoGoCrede
09-05-2009, 07:24 PM
Per Merkin:

Konerko on the White Sox four straight wins: "It feels good to have a few days where we feel like we're a good team."

gobears1987
09-05-2009, 07:25 PM
Let's just see this team continue to win. I like our chances to sweep.

slavko
09-05-2009, 07:27 PM
Where are all the posters complaining about using the closer in a non-save situation? Even if we all know it's bushwa, I've gotten accustomed to their posts.

SCCWS
09-05-2009, 07:38 PM
I always enjoy when The Sox beat the Other Sox! Their fans, if they're not as obnoxious as Cubbie fans then they are not far behind.


Being a White Sox fan for 40+ years living in New England, I think you are way off base. It stinks to live in Red Sox territory because they have been so successful other than winning the World Series. That obviously changed in this decade.
But I must admit they have great fans:

1. They are extremely loyal. They have a strong allegiance to their players and many move to New England after they retire. They will continue to cheer players in prolong slumps. Almost every Boston player that leaves is very complimentry of their fans and time in Boston. As an example, Nomar recently received a very long standing ovation on his first time back as an opponent.
2. Their fans show up in large numbers. They have sold out every game for close to a decade. Some of these fans commute over 2 hours to games which cost big bucks. Grandstand seats go for about $75 and bleachers $25.
3. They will acknowledge good plays/performances by an opponent.............unless it is a Yankee.

They are a franchise that others should emulate. As a White Sox fan, I would love to see them have a lousy season. But every year regardless of what adversity they encounter, they always end up in the thick of the pennant race. Worse they have gradually turned over their roster by infusing young players while continuing to win.

michned
09-05-2009, 08:05 PM
As someone with relatives in Boston, I agree wholeheartedly. Since they won the WS in '04 though, there have been a lot of obnoxious bandwagon jumpers that travel to watch the team (like Grateful Dead fans as Fenway mentioned in another thread). But the loyal core are solid.

Waysouthsider
09-05-2009, 08:07 PM
wow, from where we were sitting the movement on his pitches was just outrageous....how about Konerko and AJ stealing....what was that all about? Guess just added insult to Victor and Knuckleclown?

RadioheadRocks
09-05-2009, 08:14 PM
As someone with relatives in Boston, I agree wholeheartedly. Since they won the WS in '04 though, there have been a lot of obnoxious bandwagon jumpers that travel to watch the team (like Grateful Dead fans as Fenway mentioned in another thread). But the loyal core are solid.

Ben Affleck and J-Lo had a lot to do with that.

sullythered
09-05-2009, 08:24 PM
Whatever happens this year, this rotation is going to be positively sick next year.

DSpivack
09-05-2009, 08:35 PM
Ben Affleck and J-Lo had a lot to do with that.

As someone with relatives in Boston, I agree wholeheartedly. Since they won the WS in '04 though, there have been a lot of obnoxious bandwagon jumpers that travel to watch the team (like Grateful Dead fans as Fenway mentioned in another thread). But the loyal core are solid.

Being a White Sox fan for 40+ years living in New England, I think you are way off base. It stinks to live in Red Sox territory because they have been so successful other than winning the World Series. That obviously changed in this decade.
But I must admit they have great fans:

1. They are extremely loyal. They have a strong allegiance to their players and many move to New England after they retire. They will continue to cheer players in prolong slumps. Almost every Boston player that leaves is very complimentry of their fans and time in Boston. As an example, Nomar recently received a very long standing ovation on his first time back as an opponent.
2. Their fans show up in large numbers. They have sold out every game for close to a decade. Some of these fans commute over 2 hours to games which cost big bucks. Grandstand seats go for about $75 and bleachers $25.
3. They will acknowledge good plays/performances by an opponent.............unless it is a Yankee.

They are a franchise that others should emulate. As a White Sox fan, I would love to see them have a lousy season. But every year regardless of what adversity they encounter, they always end up in the thick of the pennant race. Worse they have gradually turned over their roster by infusing young players while continuing to win.

Yeah, much like the other local team, the masses of bandwagon *******s outweigh the loyal minority. Blame Ben Affleck, sure, but blame ESPN more.

As for the Sox, another good win. It'd be great to finish above .500 and in 2nd place.

johnnyg83
09-05-2009, 09:12 PM
Yeah, much like the other local team, the masses of bandwagon *******s outweigh the loyal minority. Blame Ben Affleck, sure, but blame ESPN more.

As for the Sox, another good win. It'd be great to finish above .500 and in 2nd place.

I've come to hate Red Sox fans more than Cubs fans over the last nine years. A couple WS titles have morphed them from humble respectful fans to entitled know-it-alls.

I remember Game 2 of the ALDS in the 3rd inning or so and I was behind a RedSox fan girl in the concession line (they were up 4-0) and she was on her cell phone saying "yeah, they got lucky to win yesterday, but there's no way we'll lose."

They've come out of the woodwork since the WS wins. And I call BS.

Hitmen77
09-05-2009, 09:30 PM
Great game again. Kotsay is proving to be quite useful. And Gavin. What a stud.

I am convinced I have lucky jeans, by the way.

Is Kotsay signed for next year?

Great game by Gavin! Our bullpen (except Jenks) gets much needed rest today. The bullpen also got rest yesterday thanks to Freddy, the offense, and the call ups (Hudson and Nunez).

DSpivack
09-05-2009, 09:32 PM
Is Kotsay signed for next year?

Great game by Gavin! Our bullpen (except Jenks) gets much needed rest today. The bullpen also got rest yesterday thanks to Freddy, the offense, and the call ups (Hudson and Nunez).

Nope, just checked Cot's, he signed a one year deal with the Red Sox in the offseason for $1.5 million.

DumpJerry
09-05-2009, 09:33 PM
Well, Tampa could not take advantage of the help we gave them.:angry:

Hope Gordon is ok.

I said it before, and I'll say it again: Getz is the key. The slide started when he went on the DL, since coming off, we've been winning again. Can we have no more talk speculating who will be our 2nd Baseman next year?

RadioheadRocks
09-05-2009, 09:49 PM
I've come to hate Red Sox fans more than Cubs fans over the last nine years. A couple WS titles have morphed them from humble respectful fans to entitled know-it-alls.

I remember Game 2 of the ALDS in the 3rd inning or so and I was behind a RedSox fan girl in the concession line (they were up 4-0) and she was on her cell phone saying "yeah, they got lucky to win yesterday, but there's no way we'll lose."

They've come out of the woodwork since the WS wins. And I call BS.


True, but at least they've earned the right to trash-talk because of those WS championships. On the other hand, the Cub fan sheep seem to think they can get away with talking smack despite the team not winning jack **** in over 100 years.

Game, set, match.

chisoxfanatic
09-06-2009, 12:05 AM
Wow, this is a pretty short thread considering the 4-game winning streak!

I'm in chat if anyone else wants to join in these wee-hours!

Bob Roarman
09-06-2009, 12:07 AM
Well, Tampa could not take advantage of the help we gave them.:angry:

Hope Gordon is ok.

I said it before, and I'll say it again: Getz is the key. The slide started when he went on the DL, since coming off, we've been winning again. Can we have no more talk speculating who will be our 2nd Baseman next year?

Or maybe it was, you know, the bullpen exploding?

Frankfan4life
09-06-2009, 01:05 AM
I had a lot of chores to do today and unfortunately I missed a good game. Nevertheless, I'm on "Cloud 10" right now because the Sox are finally playing baseball like they should. I'm hoping for a looong winning streak but, more importantly, I just want the Sox to continue playing as well as they have been the last four games.

I also want Detroit to have one of the biggest September swoons of all time.

Great game Gavin! Look out for the gum and pies next time.

Nellie_Fox
09-06-2009, 01:18 AM
Great game Gavin! Look out for the gum and pies next time.A load of shaving cream in the eyes can't be pleasant. I think it's time to let this prank die.

Lip Man 1
09-06-2009, 01:22 AM
Very well pitched game. Four in a row. 14 to a winning season.

Lip

Boondock Saint
09-06-2009, 02:41 AM
Remember how people ripped KW for trading for Gavin Floyd?

Remember how some people on here were all but begging KW to trade Gavin this offseason "while his value was still high", because he "had a career year" and was "bound to fall back to earth"?

Here's to Gavin putting together yet another fluke season.

Foulke You
09-06-2009, 03:18 AM
Well, Tampa could not take advantage of the help we gave them.:angry:

Hope Gordon is ok.

I said it before, and I'll say it again: Getz is the key. The slide started when he went on the DL, since coming off, we've been winning again. Can we have no more talk speculating who will be our 2nd Baseman next year?
I would have to agree Dump. I was firmly in the "Nix should be starting" camp before Getz went down but since he came back, the offense is normal again. It seems like Getz is an igniter at the bottom of the order and helps get this offense going. I think Jayson's greatest value to the team is in the Tony Graffanino super utility type role and Getz should be the starter especially now that we are more right handed without Thome.

Nice win today. Feels good to get some payback on the Carmines for that Fenway series last week. Too bad the Tigers haven't lost a single game during our win streak.:(:

Craig Grebeck
09-06-2009, 03:45 AM
Remember how some people on here were all but begging KW to trade Gavin this offseason "while his value was still high", because he "had a career year" and was "bound to fall back to earth"?

Here's to Gavin putting together yet another fluke season.
There's actually a huge difference between last year's Gavin and this year's Gavin; he's completely changed the type of pitcher he is.

oeo
09-06-2009, 03:46 AM
Or maybe it was, you know, the bullpen exploding?

It wasn't just the bullpen, our offense was crap. We couldn't get anything going. I don't know if Getz is the 'key', I think it's more coincidental. That was a tough road trip, against the two best home teams in the game and then the Metrodome where the Twins have our number. I'll look at the wasted opportunities earlier in the season, and the overall crap first two months when the year is over, not the road trip we just came off of. That said, Getz is nice to have as he'll give you a good AB, and he just puts the bat on the ball.

guillensdisciple
09-06-2009, 04:30 AM
As long as the Sox are winning I could care less about the Tigers.

Go Sox, just come out of this season as a respectable club and I will be a happy fan!

kufram
09-06-2009, 05:08 AM
Being a White Sox fan for 40+ years living in New England, I think you are way off base. It stinks to live in Red Sox territory because they have been so successful other than winning the World Series. That obviously changed in this decade.
But I must admit they have great fans:

1. They are extremely loyal. They have a strong allegiance to their players and many move to New England after they retire. They will continue to cheer players in prolong slumps. Almost every Boston player that leaves is very complimentry of their fans and time in Boston. As an example, Nomar recently received a very long standing ovation on his first time back as an opponent.
2. Their fans show up in large numbers. They have sold out every game for close to a decade. Some of these fans commute over 2 hours to games which cost big bucks. Grandstand seats go for about $75 and bleachers $25.
3. They will acknowledge good plays/performances by an opponent.............unless it is a Yankee.

They are a franchise that others should emulate. As a White Sox fan, I would love to see them have a lousy season. But every year regardless of what adversity they encounter, they always end up in the thick of the pennant race. Worse they have gradually turned over their roster by infusing young players while continuing to win.

Thanks for your very brave post. I have been a White Sox fan since 1959 when I was 8 years old... so I guess I could be called a bandwagon jumper. I only watch White Sox games. I am uninterested in any other teams until we are playing them. That doesn't mean I don't know anything about them. I have respect for any player that can make it to the big leagues unless they don't try hard enough or don't set a good example for young fans.

I think fans generally get back what they give out. I can't be bothered to HATE the Twins or the Cubs... it takes up too much energy and would do ME more harm that it would do them, and I want the White Sox to win as much as anybody anywhere.

kufram
09-06-2009, 07:22 AM
There's actually a huge difference between last year's Gavin and this year's Gavin; he's completely changed the type of pitcher he is.
Hmmm.. maybe the coaching staff knew better than the people shouting TRADE! Nah, that couldn't be it.

Craig Grebeck
09-06-2009, 08:05 AM
Hmmm.. maybe the coaching staff knew better than the people shouting TRADE! Nah, that couldn't be it.
I'm just saying 2008 Gavin is nowhere near the pitcher 2009 Gavin is. Shoot me.

Tragg
09-06-2009, 08:31 AM
As for the roadtrip, yes it was tough, but we played just as bad in the preceeding homestand. The difference was in the level of competition. A lot of times it's when you play them - Detroit is fortunate enough to play Tampa when Tampa is out of the race.

I hope Ozzie is getting his notions such as Podsednik at DH and sacrifice bunting the 3 hole hitter in the first inning out of his system in September ball. Hopefully they don't become ingrained. Any offense looks good with 1-run pitching.

There's actually a huge difference between last year's Gavin and this year's Gavin; he's completely changed the type of pitcher he is.
How is he a different type of pitcher in 2009 than in 2008?

DumpJerry
09-06-2009, 08:44 AM
Or maybe it was, you know, the bullpen exploding?
You mean imploding? What the Bullpen did or did not do is a minor factor. If the offense had done their job, the Bullpen would not have appeared to have collapsed with the same level of production.

My point is that Getz is the only AL rookie who has better offensive numbers in some categories than Beckham this year. He is a catalyst.

voodoochile
09-06-2009, 08:51 AM
You mean imploding? What the Bullpen did or did not do is a minor factor. If the offense had done their job, the Bullpen would not have appeared to have collapsed with the same level of production.

My point is that Getz is the only AL rookie who has better offensive numbers in some categories than Beckham this year. He is a catalyst.

Exactly, when bullpens get over worked due to lack of offensive production and crappy starting pitching they tend to implode. It's not really a shock that when the opposite happens the Sox bullpen has been fairly solid, but like any bullpen if you stress it, it struggles.

Craig Grebeck
09-06-2009, 08:54 AM
How is he a different type of pitcher in 2009 than in 2008?
Increased K/9, decreased BB/9, missing way more bats, increased GB/FB ratio.

His last 20 starts:

140.2 IP, 125 K, 33 B, 2.62 ERA, .594 OPS allowed

Craig Grebeck
09-06-2009, 08:57 AM
My point is that Getz is the only AL rookie who has better offensive numbers in some categories than Beckham this year. He is a catalyst.
Well, those would be counting statistics. Getz has played more games than Beckham, therefore he has an inherent advantage there. The meaningful rate statistics show Beckham is a far better hitter -- which is why he should be moved to 2B after this season with a new, slick-fielding 3B coming in.

DumpJerry
09-06-2009, 09:03 AM
Well, those would be counting statistics. Getz has played more games than Beckham, therefore he has an inherent advantage there. The meaningful rate statistics show Beckham is a far better hitter -- which is why he should be moved to 2B after this season with a new, slick-fielding 3B coming in.
Bad idea. We need Getz. Things are shaping up nicely for the infield.

Craig Grebeck
09-06-2009, 09:06 AM
Bad idea. We need Getz. Things are shaping up nicely for the infield.
Why would that be a bad idea? His defense has been disappointing and his bat is pretty meh-tacular. Even if we brought in his hitting equivalent (say, a guy like Pedro Feliz) and put him at 3B, I'd be on cloud nine with that defense.

cards press box
09-06-2009, 09:49 AM
Remember how people ripped KW for trading for Gavin Floyd?

Yeah, I sure do. I also remember positing on this board in February 2008 that some people were writing off Floyd way too soon (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=97802&page=3).

Remember how some people on here were all but begging KW to trade Gavin this offseason "while his value was still high", because he "had a career year" and was "bound to fall back to earth"?

Yeah, I remember that, too. Floyd is 26 and is just starting to come into his best years. Yes, he struggled when first came up with the Phillies. But many pitchers take some time to develop. I don't understand why some people were so certain that Floyd would regress.

There's actually a huge difference between last year's Gavin and this year's Gavin; he's completely changed the type of pitcher he is.

How so? Floyd has always had great stuff. It seems to me that he is maturing and mastering his craft.

GoSox2K3
09-06-2009, 09:50 AM
How is he a different type of pitcher in 2009 than in 2008?

Because Grebeck is never wrong, that's how! Even when he is, he'll pull out any stat necessary to prove it.

I'm just saying 2008 Gavin is nowhere near the pitcher 2009 Gavin is. Shoot me.

MOD EDIT: Enough with the personal attacks. Next one gets you a rip.

slavko
09-06-2009, 10:01 AM
Well, those would be counting statistics. Getz has played more games than Beckham, therefore he has an inherent advantage there. The meaningful rate statistics show Beckham is a far better hitter -- which is why he should be moved to 2B after this season with a new, slick-fielding 3B coming in.

You're not saying that batting average depends on the number of games played?

all*star quentin
09-06-2009, 10:06 AM
Remember how some people on here were all but begging KW to trade Gavin this offseason "while his value was still high", because he "had a career year" and was "bound to fall back to earth"?

Here's to Gavin putting together yet another fluke season.

Per Terry Francona of Floyd, "Their guy was just dominant. Slider, cutter, fastball, change. He had everything. He just kind of carved us up."

I left to buy the game day program in the 6th. He looked that good. :gulp:

Craig Grebeck
09-06-2009, 10:08 AM
How so? Floyd has always had great stuff. It seems to me that he is maturing and mastering his craft.
His stuff is better in every regard and he's throwing fewer fastballs. Oh, and everything I already said way before you posted. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2347604&postcount=64)

Because Grebeck is never wrong, that's how! Even when he is, he'll pull out any stat necessary to prove it.



Gladly.....BANG!
Lovely. Is it really that preposterous to say that a pitcher who experiences an uptick in velocity with every pitch, walks fewer batters, strikes out more and induces fewer flyballs is a different pitcher? No. He's made progress that isn't made by all pitchers; he could have just as easily fallen backward.

You're not saying that batting average depends on the number of games played?
You may want to read my post. I said "meaningful" rate statistics. I was saying that counting statistics are devoid of meaning when, well, pretty much all the time. As for batting average, I don't really think an empty .278 or whatever Getz is batting is anywhere near as good as Beckham's .272, when one considers meaningful statistics.

cards press box
09-06-2009, 10:26 AM
His stuff is better in every regard and he's throwing fewer fastballs. Oh, and everything I already said way before you posted. (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2347604&postcount=64)

I don't think we disagree, as this discussion is really a misunderstanding based upon semantics. Floyd's stuff (i.e., the quality of his pitches) hasn't noticeably changed and yet he has become a better pitcher. As he has gotten more experience, he has improved in the craft of pitching (i.e., command of the different quadrants of the strike zone, changing speeds, mixing his pitches, etc.) His starts against the Yankees and Red Sox at U.S. Cellular Field this year were both gems.

Floyd has become a better pitcher and he still hasn't hit his peak years. Here's hoping that he leads an excellent Sox rotation for years to come.

SCCWS
09-06-2009, 10:26 AM
Well, those would be counting statistics. Getz has played more games than Beckham, therefore he has an inherent advantage there. The meaningful rate statistics show Beckham is a far better hitter -- which is why he should be moved to 2B after this season with a new, slick-fielding 3B coming in.


Getz only has 30 more abs. than Beckham. Beckham has a lot more pop but also strikes out more than Getz despite less abs. They both have similiar OBP. Getz is a much better baserunner. Since both are rookies, Getz has pretty much shown to be a .275 hitter where Beckham was very cold then very hot now cold again. Is Beckham a future .300+ or .250+ hitter ?
Sox are lucky to have 2 outstanding rookies arrive the same year.

slavko
09-06-2009, 10:29 AM
You may want to read my post. I said "meaningful" rate statistics. I was saying that counting statistics are devoid of meaning when, well, pretty much all the time. As for batting average, I don't really think an empty .278 or whatever Getz is batting is anywhere near as good as Beckham's .272, when one considers meaningful statistics.

You have me convinced that batting average is a meaningless statistic. Got any swampland to sell?

cards press box
09-06-2009, 10:31 AM
Getz only has 30 more abs. than Beckham. Beckham has a lot more pop but also strikes out more than Getz despite less abs. They both have similiar OBP. Getz is a much better baserunner. Since both are rookies, Getz has pretty much shown to be a .275 hitter where Beckham was very cold then very hot now cold again. Is Beckham a future .300+ or .250+ hitter ?
Sox are lucky to have 2 outstanding rookies arrive the same year.

In 94 games this year, Getz has 22 stolen bases. He's only been thrown out a couple of times. Getz could develop into a great baserunner and base stealer.

DirtySox
09-06-2009, 10:35 AM
Getz only has 30 more abs. than Beckham. Beckham has a lot more pop but also strikes out more than Getz despite less abs. They both have similiar OBP. Getz is a much better baserunner. Since both are rookies, Getz has pretty much shown to be a .275 hitter where Beckham was very cold then very hot now cold again. Is Beckham a future .300+ or .250+ hitter ?
Sox are lucky to have 2 outstanding rookies arrive the same year.


Beckham is way out of Getz's league. Gordon is a line drive hitter that sprays the ball all over the field. He is a doubles machine who will also hit in the realm of 20ish home runs a year. This season is just the tip of the iceberg.

While I appreciate what Getz has done, he possesses no power, doesn't walk much, is weak defensively, and is already 26.

Beckham is going to be a star while Getz has a chance to be a solid regular. (which is still very valuable.)

gobears1987
09-06-2009, 10:42 AM
Beckham is going to be a star while Getz has a chance to be a solid regular. (which is still very valuable.)Your analysis is dead on. If it wasn't for Bacon this year, we would all be fawning over how amazing Getz has been for us. However, because of Bacon, I feel Getz has been overlooked by many fans.

Tragg
09-06-2009, 10:51 AM
How does our D stand with Beckham at 3, Getz and 2b and Ramirez at SS?

DickAllen72
09-06-2009, 11:42 AM
How does our D stand with Beckham at 3, Getz and 2b and Ramirez at SS?
Ugh.

kufram
09-06-2009, 11:44 AM
Beckham already is the new White Sox third baseman. Alexei is the SS and Getz is at 2nd.... that's going to be for a long while, I hope. Get used to it folks.

Craig Grebeck
09-06-2009, 11:47 AM
I don't think we disagree, as this discussion is really a misunderstanding based upon semantics. Floyd's stuff (i.e., the quality of his pitches) hasn't noticeably changed and yet he has become a better pitcher. As he has gotten more experience, he has improved in the craft of pitching (i.e., command of the different quadrants of the strike zone, changing speeds, mixing his pitches, etc.) His starts against the Yankees and Red Sox at U.S. Cellular Field this year were both gems.

Floyd has become a better pitcher and he still hasn't hit his peak years. Here's hoping that he leads an excellent Sox rotation for years to come.
He is hitting one MPH faster on every pitch.

Sox are lucky to have 2 outstanding rookies arrive the same year.
Or one great, and one pretty average.

Tragg
09-06-2009, 12:04 PM
Beckham already is the new White Sox third baseman. Alexei is the SS and Getz is at 2nd.... that's going to be for a long while, I hope. Get used to it folks.
If it's as bad as described defensively, it needs to change.
If Getz is as good as everyone says, trade him for an athletic 3B or outfielder

oeo
09-06-2009, 12:07 PM
I'm just saying 2008 Gavin is nowhere near the pitcher 2009 Gavin is. Shoot me.

That's why stats can really suck sometimes, especially when you're trying to project a season (quite frankly one of the dumbest things around). You can't predict improvement of a young pitcher. Was Gavin supposed to not get better because he was 26? Next year he will be 27, and I still don't think he's completely tapped into his potential.

kufram
09-06-2009, 12:44 PM
If it's as bad as described defensively, it needs to change.
If Getz is as good as everyone says, trade him for an athletic 3B or outfielder
They are all first year at their position in the majors. Give them some time. The defense will improve. I expect Alexei will always have the odd mental lapse but he brings so much to the table that it is worth it. Did you see the play he made to save the (then) perfect game for Floyd last night? Big game play. Getz is going to be a good solid major league 2nd base that gets those important bloop hits that look like doubles in the scorebook, and Beckham is the future face of the franchise and already a vastly improved 3b. By the middle of next year no one will want to move any of them. When Flowers comes in, look out. Don't rebuild an infield while you are in the middle of building one.

Craig Grebeck
09-06-2009, 03:34 PM
That's why stats can really suck sometimes, especially when you're trying to project a season (quite frankly one of the dumbest things around). You can't predict improvement of a young pitcher. Was Gavin supposed to not get better because he was 26? Next year he will be 27, and I still don't think he's completely tapped into his potential.
No, I think most people expected a drop-off if Gavin didn't improve his control and miss more bats -- something not every pitcher does. He's done that, and become a much better pitcher. It's not like he's throwing the same.

Not everyone progresses.

hawkjt
09-06-2009, 05:36 PM
They are all first year at their position in the majors. Give them some time. The defense will improve. I expect Alexei will always have the odd mental lapse but he brings so much to the table that it is worth it. Did you see the play he made to save the (then) perfect game for Floyd last night? Big game play. Getz is going to be a good solid major league 2nd base that gets those important bloop hits that look like doubles in the scorebook, and Beckham is the future face of the franchise and already a vastly improved 3b. By the middle of next year no one will want to move any of them. When Flowers comes in, look out. Don't rebuild an infield while you are in the middle of building one.


Agree. Fans are too impatient with young players. Getz may be 26 but guys like him blossom late..Nix also. Alexei can do it, we know that, so let him breath and do it. Beckham is a stud who may have a little sophmoritis next year...but will be very good.

Sometimes you back up the truck, sometimes you let a young group mature together like Tampa did last year.
Sox will be tweaking around the edges this offseason, and letting their science project get legs,over the screams of their faithful fans.

Hitmen77
09-06-2009, 06:36 PM
No, I think most people expected a drop-off if Gavin didn't improve his control and miss more bats -- something not every pitcher does. He's done that, and become a much better pitcher. It's not like he's throwing the same.

Not everyone progresses.

Yes, but Gavin did and I'm glad the Sox expected him to progress too instead of thinking they had better "sell high" on Gavin as some armchair GMs did.

cards press box
09-06-2009, 09:50 PM
He is hitting one MPH faster on every pitch.

One initial question, what is your basis for saying that every one of Floyd's pitches are 1 mph faster this year?

In any event, when you say he's throwing all his pitches 1 mph faster, are you referring to just raw velocity? If so, is 1 additional mph that important? If a pitch is straight, it doesn't matter how fast they go, major league hitters will hit them.

Floyd's pitches have great late movement but they have always had that. The difference that I have noticed in Floyd in 2008 and 2009 is better command, better control, more confidence and more experience. He is a top flight pitcher now and, as I said before, he probably has not yet hit his peak.

oeo
09-07-2009, 02:19 AM
No, I think most people expected a drop-off if Gavin didn't improve his control and miss more bats -- something not every pitcher does. He's done that, and become a much better pitcher. It's not like he's throwing the same.

Which is exactly the point some of us tried to make before the season. Since when are baseball players so static and predictable, especially early in their careers?

Not everyone progresses.

He was only 25, there was a very good chance of it. And there's still a chance he improves next year, too.

Craig Grebeck
09-07-2009, 02:44 AM
Which is exactly the point some of us tried to make before the season. Since when are baseball players so static and predictable, especially early in their careers?



He was only 25, there was a very good chance of it. And there's still a chance he improves next year, too.
Pitchers who drastically over-perform their peripherals don't normally take gigantic steps forward. It wasn't as likely as you're making it out to be.

They aren't static and predictable, pitchers are wildly unpredictable; but refusing to acknowledge he could have just as easily crashed and burned is stupid.

Craig Grebeck
09-07-2009, 02:45 AM
One initial question, what is your basis for saying that every one of Floyd's pitches are 1 mph faster this year?

In any event, when you say he's throwing all his pitches 1 mph faster, are you referring to just raw velocity? If so, is 1 additional mph that important? If a pitch is straight, it doesn't matter how fast they go, major league hitters will hit them.

Floyd's pitches have great late movement but they have always had that. The difference that I have noticed in Floyd in 2008 and 2009 is better command, better control, more confidence and more experience. He is a top flight pitcher now and, as I said before, he probably has not yet hit his peak.
My basis is Fangraphs, which puts his average velocity as one MPH faster on every pitch.

Nellie_Fox
09-07-2009, 11:36 PM
Pitchers who drastically over-perform their peripherals ...

My basis is Fangraphs ...
And they come in a variety of colors!

http://www.centurynovelty.com/catImages/092-037_large.jpg

Craig Grebeck
09-08-2009, 02:40 AM
And they come in a variety of colors!

http://www.centurynovelty.com/catImages/092-037_large.jpg
Man, is there anything someone can analyze without it being nerdy? I mean seriously, pitch velocity? So it's cool if scouts look at it, but not if a website compiles it?

DirtySox
09-08-2009, 08:36 AM
Man, is there anything someone can analyze without it being nerdy? I mean seriously, pitch velocity? So it's cool if scouts look at it, but not if a website compiles it?

Too complicated. Rational thought backed with concrete evidence not allowed. Numbers hard.

FielderJones
09-08-2009, 10:03 AM
Too complicated. Rational thought backed with concrete evidence not allowed. Numbers hard.

If all baseball is is number crunching, we could get rid of Ozzie and Kenny and hire Stephen Hawking.

http://ociointernet.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/stephen_hawking_simpsons_2.jpg
"And hire Craig Grabeck as my assistant!"

gobears1987
09-08-2009, 10:07 AM
If all baseball is is number crunching, we could get rid of Ozzie and Kenny and hire Stephen Hawking.

http://ociointernet.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/stephen_hawking_simpsons_2.jpg
"And hire Craig Grabeck as my assistant!"

The numbers crunching has helped Billy Beane win all of those champio... oh wait nevermind...

asindc
09-08-2009, 10:58 AM
Man, is there anything someone can analyze without it being nerdy? I mean seriously, pitch velocity? So it's cool if scouts look at it, but not if a website compiles it?

CG, I have made my share of snide remarks about what I view as the over-reliance on statistical analysis in sports, but I do see value in stats when evaluating and, yes, projecting future performance. However, many of us cringe at the idea of declaring that a 25-year old pitcher with Gavin's stuff will not get better based on stats alone. As I always say, if you haven't watched a player play, then you cannot possibly make a complete assessment of his play.

Obviously, you have watched Gavin play, but in defending your pre-season assessment of him, you only cite statistics, while those that expected improvement cite examples of his previous play. I am convinced that some sabermetrics adherents would have insisted that Buehrle not be groomed as a starter when he was a minor leaguer, based on the fact that he does not miss enough bats and does not have a plus fastball. Yet, he is one of the top 20 starters in baseball, not that any statistical analysis would bring you to that conclusion. Since you follow the team closely, I would think that you would not have thought Gavin's improvement was totally unexpected, stats aside. But that's just it: You had to look beyond stats to make that assessment. That's what some of us did in predicting a better year from him than last year.

Lip Man 1
09-08-2009, 10:59 AM
Nellie:

That was one of your better ones!

:bandance:

Lip

Craig Grebeck
09-08-2009, 11:27 AM
CG, I have made my share of snide remarks about what I view as the over-reliance on statistical analysis in sports, but I do see value in stats when evaluating and, yes, projecting future performance. However, many of us cringe at the idea of declaring that a 25-year old pitcher with Gavin's stuff will not get better based on stats alone. As I always say, if you haven't watched a player play, then you cannot possibly make a complete assessment of his play.

Obviously, you have watched Gavin play, but in defending your pre-season assessment of him, you only cite statistics, while those that expected improvement cite examples of his previous play. I am convinced that some sabermetrics adherents would have insisted that Buehrle not be groomed as a starter when he was a minor leaguer, based on the fact that he does not miss enough bats and does not have a plus fastball. Yet, he is one of the top 20 starters in baseball, not that any statistical analysis would bring you to that conclusion. Since you follow the team closely, I would think that you would not have thought Gavin's improvement was totally unexpected, stats aside. But that's just it: You had to look beyond stats to make that assessment. That's what some of us did in predicting a better year from him than last year.
There's one problem with all of this: the people who projected Gavin would do better, did so not only because they didn't believe he had peripheral troubles in 2008. They didn't state that they thought he'd improve because he would improve his K/9 and BB/9, they thought he'd improve because it's cool to knock people who use statistics.

Edit: Also, no one declared he simply "won't get better." It was "he won't get better unless he improves his control and starts cutting down on the flyballs."

Tragg
09-08-2009, 12:25 PM
There's one problem with all of this: the people who projected Gavin would do better, did so not only because they didn't believe he had peripheral troubles in 2008. They didn't state that they thought he'd improve because he would improve his K/9 and BB/9, they thought he'd improve because it's cool to knock people who use statistics."
NO - it's because you can watch him pitch and see that he had some a)control issues and b)some super pitches that can induce bad cuts. He improved from 2007 to 2008. It wasn't silly at all to expect continued improvement.
The problem I have with the stats guys (and I use stats) is that they take OPINION and POSTULATES and claim them to be facts. For example, the Voros "missed bats" theory of pitching, that a pitcher is only as good as the number of bats he misses, has never been proven.
I think it's close to alchemy, but I can't prove it isn't true either.

kufram
09-08-2009, 12:30 PM
Of course stats have a big part to play in baseball. It is a game of percentages. Stats are something to aid in making decisions not to base decisions on. Players are human beings and baseball is a game where a 30% success rate is considered fantastic while a success rate of 25% is not good enough. How are you going to project when the.250 guy is going hit well? You don't. It is the man you have to assess, not his numbers. The numbers are dependent on a lot of luck. Joe Crede is a good example... I don't know his numbers, but I doubt if they are great, but at important times in important games I would rather have him up there than any .340 hitter.

DirtySox
09-08-2009, 12:55 PM
If all baseball is is number crunching, we could get rid of Ozzie and Kenny and hire Stephen Hawking.

That's clearly the argument of this thread.

Craig Grebeck
09-08-2009, 01:02 PM
NO - it's because you can watch him pitch and see that he had some a)control issues and b)some super pitches that can induce bad cuts. He improved from 2007 to 2008. It wasn't silly at all to expect continued improvement.
The problem I have with the stats guys (and I use stats) is that they take OPINION and POSTULATES and claim them to be facts. For example, the Voros "missed bats" theory of pitching, that a pitcher is only as good as the number of bats he misses, has never been proven.
I think it's close to alchemy, but I can't prove it isn't true either.
Do you mind arguing with the post and not these shadowy "stats guys" that keep being pulled out left and right? Everything's always a declaration of war against a minority of people whose opinions you don't respect.

All I'm saying is that Floyd got better by doing what he didn't do last season. A repeat performance of last year's BB/9 and K/9 would have resulted in a giant regression.

kufram
09-08-2009, 03:20 PM
Only one 2008 stat really matters. Floyd won 17 games.

FielderJones
09-08-2009, 03:40 PM
For example, the Voros "missed bats" theory of pitching, that a pitcher is only as good as the number of bats he misses, has never been proven. I think it's close to alchemy, but I can't prove it isn't true either.

Can someone explain the concept of "missing bats" to me? When I read that I get a picture in my mind of batter statues that do not have the capability of adjusting their swing to a pitch.

Craig Grebeck
09-08-2009, 03:57 PM
Can someone explain the concept of "missing bats" to me? When I read that I get a picture in my mind of batter statues that do not have the capability of adjusting their swing to a pitch.
Inducing swinging strikes and the ability to strike hitters out.

asindc
09-08-2009, 04:19 PM
Can someone explain the concept of "missing bats" to me? When I read that I get a picture in my mind of batter statues that do not have the capability of adjusting their swing to a pitch.

CG has explained missing bats, so I will add that an effective pitcher who does not "miss bats" is known to "pitch to contact" (e.g., Buehrle). Some sabrmetricians theorize that pitching to contact will eventually come back to haunt a pitcher, so they value pitchers who miss bats (e.g., Beckett) more highly than those who don't. They also, however, find it unlikely that a pitcher who pitches to contact can pitch a no-hitter, so there you are.

Craig Grebeck
09-08-2009, 04:21 PM
CG has explained missing bats, so I will add that an effective pitcher who does not "miss bats" is known to "pitch to contact" (e.g., Buehrle). Some sabrmetricians theorize that pitching to contact will eventually come back to haunt a pitcher, so they value pitchers who miss bats (e.g., Beckett) more highly than those who don't. They also, however, find it unlikely that a pitcher who pitches to contact can pitch a no-hitter, so there you are.
That's a generalization. Buehrle has value because he has what is probably the best change-up in the game, and his ability to induce weak contact makes him the good pitcher that he is.

voodoochile
09-08-2009, 04:37 PM
That's a generalization. Buehrle has value because he has what is probably the best change-up in the game, and his ability to induce weak contact makes him the good pitcher that he is.

But that doesn't fit in a stats bundle.

Buehrle also uses every inch of the strikezone and then some throws all of his pitches at multiple speeds (even if it's just a mile an hour difference it throws the hitter off) and 95% of the pitches he throws either are strikes or look like strikes when they leave his hand.

Of course again, NONE of that can be modeled with statistical analysis.

And I'm not trying to belittle stats. I use them myself. I do however feel it's almost impossible to build a complete statistical model of baseball as there are just too damned many factors that affect a game's outcome.

So, stats make a handy tool, but people do tend to over value them and thus guys like Buehrle get lost in the noise...

asindc
09-08-2009, 04:38 PM
CG has explained missing bats, so I will add that an effective pitcher who does not "miss bats" is known to "pitch to contact" (e.g., Buehrle). Some sabrmetricians theorize that pitching to contact will eventually come back to haunt a pitcher, so they value pitchers who miss bats (e.g., Beckett) more highly than those who don't. They also, however, find it unlikely that a pitcher who pitches to contact can pitch a no-hitter, so there you are.

Like I said.

Craig Grebeck
09-08-2009, 04:38 PM
But that doesn't fit in a stats bundle.

Buehrle also uses every inch of the strikezone and then some throws all of his pitches at multiple speeds (even if it's just a mile an hour difference it throws the hitter off) and 95% of the pitches he throws either are strikes or look like strikes when they leave his hand.

Of course again, NONE of that can be modeled with statistical analysis.

And I'm not trying to belittle stats. I use them myself. I do however feel it's almost impossible to build a complete statistical model of baseball as there are just too damned many factors that affect a game's outcome.

So, stats make a handy tool, but people do tend to over value them and thus guys like Buehrle get lost in the noise...
Of course, I've never argued for a purely statistical model of the game, and I certainly value what scouts say. But one can never, ever use any statistic other than counting statistics, batting average, and MAYBE OBP without being lectured about someone else's ideology.

voodoochile
09-08-2009, 04:43 PM
Of course, I've never argued for a purely statistical model of the game, and I certainly value what scouts say. But one can never, ever use any statistic other than counting statistics, batting average, and MAYBE OBP without being lectured about someone else's ideology.

You're not gonna convince everyone. If you try, you're just gonna end up banging your head against the computer screen until the pain goes away, which statistically speaking (or purely from an anecdotal standpoint) is probably not gonna work...:tongue:

sullythered
09-08-2009, 06:03 PM
Of course, I've never argued for a purely statistical model of the game, and I certainly value what scouts say. But one can never, ever use any statistic other than counting statistics, batting average, and MAYBE OBP without being lectured about someone else's ideology.
I think OPS has become pretty generally accepted, even by anti-stats folks.

Brewski
09-09-2009, 09:45 AM
But that doesn't fit in a stats bundle.

Buehrle also uses every inch of the strikezone and then some throws all of his pitches at multiple speeds (even if it's just a mile an hour difference it throws the hitter off) and 95% of the pitches he throws either are strikes or look like strikes when they leave his hand.

Of course again, NONE of that can be modeled with statistical analysis.



If it exists, it's possible to measure it. If it's possible to measure it, it's possible to create statistics out of it. It is not impossible to develop statistics for, let's say, inches-of-the-strikezone-used, or miles-per-hour-variance-in-pitches, or looks-like-a-strike-but-isn't.

If you people were any kind of statisticians you would have already done so. Don't show your heads around here until you finish the job.