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LITTLE NELL
09-02-2009, 06:14 AM
Since July of 06 this team when it comes to fundamentals is the pits. That comes from the manager and his coaches.
With 29 games to go its time for Ozzie, Walker, Cora and Baines to go. I keep Coop if the new manager wants him and that guy should be Carlton Fisk.
Ozzie has become a joke( keeps trotting Pods out in CF when we have Rios for example) and Fisk would become the new Chuck Tanner when we brought him in at the end of 1970 and he turned that team around the next year and by 1972 we almost won the Western Division.29 games would give Fisk and his new coaches time to evaluate these underachievers. This team has quit and I am 100% positive that a player would be busting his butt with Fisk as the manager. Remember how Fisk got in Sanders face for not hustling and he was on the other team.
Time to make the move KW, if you don't you may be gone soon too.

WhiteSox1989
09-02-2009, 07:19 AM
I do think a couple coaching positions needs to be changed, but I don't think Ozzie will go. And I hope he doesn't.

WSox597
09-02-2009, 07:33 AM
Since July of 06 this team when it comes to fundamentals is the pits. That comes from the manager and his coaches.
With 29 games to go it time for Ozzie, Walker, Cora and Baines to go. I keep Coop if the new manager wants him and that guy should be Carlton Fisk.
Ozzie has become a joke( keeps trotting Pods out in CF when we have Rios for example) and Fisk would become the new Chuck Tanner when we brought him in at the end of 1970 and he turned that team around the next year and by 1972 we almost won the Western Division.29 games would give Fisk and his new coaches time to evaluate these underachievers. This team has quit and I am 100% positive that a player would be busting his butt with Fisk as the manager. Remember how Fisk got in Sanders face for not hustling and he was on the other team.
Time to make the move KW, if you don't you may be gone soon too.

I can see your point here. It does seem like it's time for Ozzie to go. He doesn't do well with younger players, or so the story goes.

He's a veteran's manager, and with these results, you even have to wonder if that's true.

And trotting Pods out to CF when Rios is here? How about trotting poor Mackowiak out to CF when Anderson was here?

It is time to go, for Ozzie and his coaches. Thanks for the Series, Oz.

I do have one minor quibble, though. By the time a player gets to the major leagues, he ought to have a firm grasp of the fundamentals. If he doesn't, then that is on the minor league system. And the Sox have made changes there already, with Buddy Bell in charge now.

How about this time, the Sox actually pick a known quantity, rather than a Manuel or Bevington type? Or even a Guillen, who almost nobody thought was a good pick at first.

Zisk77
09-02-2009, 08:15 AM
Right, because fundamentals are supposed to be taught at the ig League level. never heard of ozzie making his players take extra bunting practice...oh wait our hitters never try to hit the ball to the right side with a runner on second and no one out.

Knowing how to do things right & being able to execute are two different things. This has been the best year bunting for example in the last 5. But its the management not the "soft-ball" players that are being phased out.

Ozzie is a veteran manager. Beckham, getz, nix, Danks, Floyd, TCQ, and Alexie beg to differ. Face it Fobas BA just wasn't good.

gobears1987
09-02-2009, 08:17 AM
Ozzie doesn't do well with young players? I guess that is why Getz and Bacon have sucked big time and this team is sucking. If anything, the young player are doing the best under Ozzie this year and the veterans are tanking so your argument looks to be pretty flimsy. Then again, the fire Ozzie crowd has nevr had anything to stand on when asked to bring up a well constructed argument.

This site has become an embarrassment over the last 36 hours. When did all the Cub fans get here?

ms620
09-02-2009, 08:18 AM
Since July of 06 this team when it comes to fundamentals is the pits. That comes from the manager and his coaches.
With 29 games to go it time for Ozzie, Walker, Cora and Baines to go. I keep Coop if the new manager wants him and that guy should be Carlton Fisk.
Ozzie has become a joke( keeps trotting Pods out in CF when we have Rios for example) and Fisk would become the new Chuck Tanner when we brought him in at the end of 1970 and he turned that team around the next year and by 1972 we almost won the Western Division.29 games would give Fisk and his new coaches time to evaluate these underachievers. This team has quit and I am 100% positive that a player would be busting his butt with Fisk as the manager. Remember how Fisk got in Sanders face for not hustling and he was on the other team.
Time to make the move KW, if you don't you may be gone soon too.

I would not let go of Guillen just yet. The sox are in the middle of a transition to a different style ballclub. They will be much younger, have more speed, and hopefully will be able to execute better. I really do not think this season should be put on Guillen. He has a group of guys who have slumped during the second half. Lets see what he can do the next couple years.

soxyess
09-02-2009, 08:34 AM
Ozzie and KW will be here for a long time! Many of the players will be gone in the offseason. When you have a softball team mentality you will play lousy defense. Look for that to change.

Viva Medias B's
09-02-2009, 08:35 AM
Since July of 06 this team when it comes to fundamentals is the pits. That comes from the manager and his coaches.
With 29 games to go it time for Ozzie, Walker, Cora and Baines to go. I keep Coop if the new manager wants him and that guy should be Carlton Fisk.

That is ridiculous. First of all, blaming the coaching staff for the lack of fundamentals is absurd. It's not their fault that millionaire ballplayers cannot execute. Second, people who think that Fisk should be a future Sox manager are using the same thought process that meatball Bears fans use in suggesting that a future Bears head coach must be a member of the '85 team.

Red Barchetta
09-02-2009, 09:01 AM
What I never understood was during 2005 and the World Series, I kept hearing about "Ozzie Ball", "Small Ball" and "Grinders". We win with that style of play and immediately change the composition of the team by getting bigger and slower.

We get Pods back early this season and suddenly, we're running the base paths better, bunting, etc. and most importantly winning. I'm not saying Pods was the answer, however he helped bring back a style of play we had not seen in awhile.

Since mid-summer, it's like the team has returned to it's all or nothing offensive mindset.

If KW and the SOX brass are serious about winning, why did they abandon the philosophy that proved successful?! Is it just the lack of players to support this philosophy?

Sargeant79
09-02-2009, 09:12 AM
This site has become an embarrassment over the last 36 hours.

Amen. Carlton Fisk as the manager?! Are you ****ting me?! This thread is absurd.

Lillian
09-02-2009, 09:15 AM
This centerfield issue is very confusing and frustrating. After having suffered for so long without a legitimate centerfielder, they finally acquire one, at great expense I might ad, and then proceed to continue to give Pods playing time at that position. If Pods were good enough to play there, why did they commit so much payroll to Rios? I don't get it!!!!
You could understand it if Rios were injured, or needed to be benched, but he's in the lineup, in right field. Very confusing indeed.

southside rocks
09-02-2009, 09:15 AM
Since July of 06 this team when it comes to fundamentals is the pits. That comes from the manager and his coaches.
With 29 games to go it time for Ozzie, Walker, Cora and Baines to go. I keep Coop if the new manager wants him and that guy should be Carlton Fisk.
Ozzie has become a joke( keeps trotting Pods out in CF when we have Rios for example) and Fisk would become the new Chuck Tanner when we brought him in at the end of 1970 and he turned that team around the next year and by 1972 we almost won the Western Division.29 games would give Fisk and his new coaches time to evaluate these underachievers. This team has quit and I am 100% positive that a player would be busting his butt with Fisk as the manager. Remember how Fisk got in Sanders face for not hustling and he was on the other team.
Time to make the move KW, if you don't you may be gone soon too.

And yet, Carlton Fisk has never ever indicated that he has any interest in coaching or managing at the big-league level (or even the minor-league level)! I wonder why that is? Maybe it has just never occurred to him?

Fisk is not someone who gets along with people in general; he makes no secret of that, so that's not a slam on him. Read Pat Jordan's excellent Conversations With The Dinosaur for an excellent account of Fisk's temperament and character. Yes, Fisk will call out someone who is being a jerk, but that is less than 1% of a manager's duties in the normal course of things. Fisk would not be a good choice for the rest of it, which just may be why he has shown no interest in that!

Joe Cowley said something about Ozzie yesterday on the Score; he said that while Ozzie's book-learning may have stopped after about the 8th grade level, his street smarts are second to no one's and Ozzie knows that different players require different handling, and he does that and has always done it. Cowley was commenting on Mitch Williams's asinine assertion that Contreras will become a fabulous pitcher once he is freed of the craziness of Ozzie Guillen. Cowley said that Ozzie's players almost without exception love that he backs them the way he does and find no fault with his handling skills. Exceptions include Nick Swisher, of course, but it's pretty likely that Swish was looking to blame his crappy year on someone other than himself.

Ozzie is not the problem. Fisk would be a horrible manager, for all that he is beloved by so many fans including me.

Hitmen77
09-02-2009, 09:17 AM
Since July of 06 this team when it comes to fundamentals is the pits. That comes from the manager and his coaches.
With 29 games to go it time for Ozzie, Walker, Cora and Baines to go. I keep Coop if the new manager wants him and that guy should be Carlton Fisk.
Ozzie has become a joke( keeps trotting Pods out in CF when we have Rios for example) and Fisk would become the new Chuck Tanner when we brought him in at the end of 1970 and he turned that team around the next year and by 1972 we almost won the Western Division.29 games would give Fisk and his new coaches time to evaluate these underachievers. This team has quit and I am 100% positive that a player would be busting his butt with Fisk as the manager. Remember how Fisk got in Sanders face for not hustling and he was on the other team.
Time to make the move KW, if you don't you may be gone soon too.

We all share your frustration. This team has been has been terrible at fundamentals for several years now. Since July 2006, our much-touted offense has, more often than not, been a flop.

I'm not going to call for anyone's job, but I think the White Sox need to take a long hard look at what's not working with our team. Yes, the players are to blame - but KW has been in charge for 8 years and Ozzie has been here for 5 years. Almost the entire current team was acquired by our current management.....so I don't think they get a pass here. It's not Ozzie's or Kenny's fault that our players constantly underperform and are bad at fundamentals...but these are the guys they acquired!

I'm not calling for Walker's job either, but I find it incredible that many people here think he's 100% blameless. Yes, he can't hit for our guys but to say he has no accountability at all? Wow, what a job! By the accounts of some people around here, it sounds like Walker's position isn't even necessary. Veteran professional major league players don't need hitting coaches! So, I guess Walker is just a glorified cheerleader or something.

doublem23
09-02-2009, 09:19 AM
This site has become an embarrassment over the last 36 hours. When did all the Cub fans get here?

Its a fan forum. Nobody put a gun to your head to read or post in this thread.

Hitmen77
09-02-2009, 09:20 AM
How about trotting poor Mackowiak out to CF when Anderson was here?



Face it Fobas BA just wasn't good.

Uggghhh!!!!! Will the Anderson/FOBA arguments ever end?

SoxFan78
09-02-2009, 09:23 AM
I think Coop should go. A pitcher's job is to get people out, and if our pitchers are letting up 1, 2, 3 or more runs a game, that is 1, 2, 3 more then they should.

Every pitcher should be pitching a perfect game, and because they are not, it's all Coopers fault. Coop needs to teach these pitchers how to throw the ball so the batter doesn't touch it.

Its all his fault, I think all the players should stay because hey, who should hold them responsible??

SI1020
09-02-2009, 09:28 AM
Since July of 06 this team when it comes to fundamentals is the pits. I've noticed that recently a few posters have mentioned a decline for the White Sox that started in July of 06. Specifically I mentioned the series with Boston right before the All Star break that year as the beginning of a long term slide. It did not go over particularly well or earn me any popularity points. The White Sox are now 17 games below .500 since then, and that is more than three baseball seasons ago.

That is ridiculous. First of all, blaming the coaching staff for the lack of fundamentals is absurd. It's not their fault that millionaire ballplayers cannot execute.

Again, why then have a manager or coaches at all? Why do some teams have success in teaching their players basic fundamentals and holding them accountable? Black Jack mentioned in a recent blog about the Twins having success at doing the little things year in and year out, often without a particularly talented team. I'm not trying to one up you, or be contentious in any way. You've been here forever and in general I like to read what you have to say. I just know that for a long time the Sox quit doing the little things that helped make them a powerhouse for a season and a half of baseball. If turning things around means blowing it up and starting all over again then I say do it.

doublem23
09-02-2009, 09:33 AM
I've noticed that recently a few posters have mentioned a decline for the White Sox that started in July of 06. Specifically I mentioned the series with Boston right before the All Star break that year as the beginning of a long term slide. It did not go over particularly well or earn me any popularity points. The White Sox are now 17 games below .500 since then, and that is more than three baseball seasons ago.


Wow, don't get hurt patting yourself on the back. Most of that record, however, can be explained by the awful, awful 2007 campaign in which the Sox were decimated by injuries and reduced to playing guys like Rob Mackowiak, Luis Terrero, and Andy Gonzalez everyday.

gobears1987
09-02-2009, 09:39 AM
I think Coop should go. A pitcher's job is to get people out, and if our pitchers are letting up 1, 2, 3 or more runs a game, that is 1, 2, 3 more then they should.

Every pitcher should be pitching a perfect game, and because they are not, it's all Coopers fault. Coop needs to teach these pitchers how to throw the ball so the batter doesn't touch it.

Its all his fault, I think all the players should stay because hey, who should hold them responsible??
You are ****ing awesome! POTW

hawkjt
09-02-2009, 09:43 AM
Looking at the league stats,one thing that stands out to me is that:

Pitching is overrated....look at team ERA stats...teams at the top?
Baltimore,Oakland,White Sox,Seattle....going nowhere.

Hitting is underrated:..look at the teams at the top:

Angels,Yankees,Boston, Twins.

Blackjack can talk about the Twins doing the little things, but the big thing they do is hit the ball. Look at their boppers...Mauer,Morneau,Kubel,Cuddyer....all having big years, and compare them to our boppers, Carlos,Thome,JD and PK..second half numbers not close.

Our pitching is 3/4 in the league in ERA...yet it feels like they stink.
It is clutch pitching that is missing, just like clutch hitting.
We are hitting .258 as a team,while the tigers are only at .259,yet they average a half of run better/game. Clutch hitting and BB have to be the difference.

Ozzie has not gotten dumb the last 6 weeks. His team got old on the plane trip back from the allstar break. JD,PK,Thome,Rios and Carlos have been flat horrible the second half. Beckham has hit the wall, when he was hot,the team was good,but he was the last guy to drop,and when he fell off, it was over. In the end, only Pods and AJ have really been consistently solid. Gordon is a rookie so he cannot be expected to carry the team.
Everyone knows the situation in center. Carlos is hurt, JD is slow and fading...that leaves two guys...for three positions. You want them to put Pods or Carlos in right field? Neither has ever played there. Makes no sense.
Pods makes a great catch last nite in center. He did not cut off the triple, but that did not cost us that game, he scores anyway from second.

Give it up. Ozzie is not going anywhere. I agree something has to be done with our philosophy...and with Thome leaving, and possibly JD and PK the year after, we will have a different look. Walker? Not sure. Coop is solid.

asindc
09-02-2009, 09:52 AM
Since July of 06 this team when it comes to fundamentals is the pits. That comes from the manager and his coaches.

The manager has been in charge since the 2004 season. Are you suggesting he has forgotten or has failed to properly emphasize fundamentals since July 2006?

With 29 games to go it time for Ozzie, Walker, Cora and Baines to go. I keep Coop if the new manager wants him and that guy should be Carlton Fisk.

Carlton Fisk would be a terrible choice for all the reasons mentioned above.

Ozzie has become a joke( keeps trotting Pods out in CF when we have Rios for example) and Fisk would become the new Chuck Tanner when we brought him in at the end of 1970 and he turned that team around the next year and by 1972 we almost won the Western Division.29 games would give Fisk and his new coaches time to evaluate these underachievers. This team has quit and I am 100% positive that a player would be busting his butt with Fisk as the manager.

I'm not sure if you have noticed that Contreras, Buehrle, Danks, Floyd, Thornton, Carrasco, Pods, Beckham, Getz, Nix, and AJ have busted their butts this season. It seems that you think a player's attitude will easily translate to the manager's job. You know who was considered hard-nosed, scrappy, fundamentally sound, and was very popular among fans for his passion? Ozzie Guillen.


Time to make the move KW, if you don't you may be gone soon too.

Any move to replace the manager and coaches right now, one month before the season ends, would be done out of frustration, IMO. Even if KW agrees with you, I would rather he waited until the end of the season.

dickallen15
09-02-2009, 09:54 AM
This centerfield issue is very confusing and frustrating. After having suffered for so long without a legitimate centerfielder, they finally acquire one, at great expense I might ad, and then proceed to continue to give Pods playing time at that position. If Pods were good enough to play there, why did they commit so much payroll to Rios? I don't get it!!!!
You could understand it if Rios were injured, or needed to be benched, but he's in the lineup, in right field. Very confusing indeed.

KW called the White Sox underachievers and spent $60 million on Rios who was available for nothing because he was an underachiever. His moves since last October have been baffling. Crying about money than acquiring a pitcher he will pay about $4 million to this year and may not even pitch. Not getting a lead off hitter. Admitting he anticipated defensive problems but doing nothing about it....on and on. Sometimes I think when he has a little success, a WS title, getting Carlos Quentin, he gets a swelled head. This will bring him back to earth. I expect a far more fundamentally sound team next season.

Frontman
09-02-2009, 09:57 AM
So, since a team remained competitive until 5 weeks left; they need to fire the entire coaching staff except the hitting coach.

When the batting averages have been horrid since the 2nd half of 06 up until 2009.

I think we need to remember that this team was never complete, nor was it close. When you enter a season with questions at CF, 3rd (we forget Beckham was not there to start the season) 2nd, and no real options for a 4th or 5th starter?

I can't blame any of the coaching staff as much as I can blame the general manager.

Now granted, will I sit here and say "Kenny did nothing?" No, I won't. But we blame Ozzie for playing Pods; yet who else do you want leading off? If someone says Alex Rios or Alexei Ramierez, whomever is close enough, cuff that guy across the back of the head for me. Backhand him if he answers Beckham.

No, its NOT time for the coaching staff to be replaced. Its time for many of the old station-to-station hitters to go. Thome is now gone, Dye will be gone in the off-season. It's time to go get another starter; replace Pods in Center with a true lead-off style player and we got a very solid core.

The other point I'd like to remind people who get upset over the Sox not finishing in first is that its not just what the Sox do; but its what all the teams in the division do. The Twins shored up and got better mid-way through. The Tigers finally remembered that they have some talent and played to that talent level. I have no problem with a team coming in 2nd or 3rd; if the Sox did what they were supposed to.

I do have a problem that poor defense let this team down. I have a problem that the bats again let this team down.

But I cannot point to the coaching staff and say "Coop/Walker(who did his job this season. Where the heck was he for 3 seasons prior?!?!?!) or Ozzie needs to go." What I can say is that I was disappointed in Kenny this season; but I think his moves he did make post- ASB made the team better for 2010. Only time will tell.

dickallen15
09-02-2009, 10:00 AM
I've noticed that recently a few posters have mentioned a decline for the White Sox that started in July of 06. Specifically I mentioned the series with Boston right before the All Star break that year as the beginning of a long term slide. It did not go over particularly well or earn me any popularity points. The White Sox are now 17 games below .500 since then, and that is more than three baseball seasons ago.



Again, why then have a manager or coaches at all? Why do some teams have success in teaching their players basic fundamentals and holding them accountable? Black Jack mentioned in a recent blog about the Twins having success at doing the little things year in and year out, often without a particularly talented team. I'm not trying to one up you, or be contentious in any way. You've been here forever and in general I like to read what you have to say. I just know that for a long time the Sox quit doing the little things that helped make them a powerhouse for a season and a half of baseball. If turning things around means blowing it up and starting all over again then I say do it.

Twins players hit the major leagues with a clue. For some reason, White Sox players with a few exceptions, like Beckham and Getz, seem like they just took up baseball a couple of days ago when they get called up. Its a lower level problem that at least is being worked on. It will take time. The roster was short this year. Guys age.

Rohan
09-02-2009, 10:16 AM
Ozzie doesn't do well with young players? I guess that is why Getz and Bacon have sucked big time and this team is sucking. If anything, the young player are doing the best under Ozzie this year and the veterans are tanking so your argument looks to be pretty flimsy. Then again, the fire Ozzie crowd has nevr had anything to stand on when asked to bring up a well constructed argument.

This site has become an embarrassment over the last 36 hours. When did all the Cub fans get here?

Amen!


Its a fan forum. Nobody put a gun to your head to read or post in this thread.

He was voicing his opinion.

TomParrish79
09-02-2009, 10:17 AM
the only person that truly needs to be fired is Walker. But thats not gonna happen and as long as he is here our hitting trends of all or nothing will continue

doublem23
09-02-2009, 10:33 AM
He was voicing his opinion.

So was I. :shrug:

I put a lot of my time and effort in around here, I take it a little personally when people refer to it as "an embarrassment."

Rohan
09-02-2009, 10:36 AM
So was I. :shrug:

I put a lot of my time and effort in around here, I take it a little personally when people refer to it as "an embarrassment."

We here at WSI are a melting pot. The views stated by one, ten, or one hundred individuals does not represent WSI as a whole. That being said, several people have been scapegoating the staff and certain players the last few days. People can't seem to understand that sometimes things just don't work out, and we need to learn from them. Instead, they just find one person and take out all of their aggression on them.

THAT'S and embarrassment. But again, that doesn't represent WSI as a whole. You do a good job, Doublem. You have nothing to be embarrassed about.

ms620
09-02-2009, 10:43 AM
We here at WSI are a melting pot. The views stated by one, ten, or one hundred individuals does not represent WSI as a whole. That being said, several people have been scapegoating the staff and certain players the last few days. People can't seem to understand that sometimes things just don't work out, and we need to learn from them. Instead, they just find one person and take out all of their aggression on them.

THAT'S and embarrassment. But again, that doesn't represent WSI as a whole. You do a good job, Doublem. You have nothing to be embarrassed about.

I do not understand why singling out certain players is a problem. This team needs to get better. Whether that means new players, or existing players having different roles, changes need to be made. It is impossible to judge the entire team without assessing the performance of each individual. Some fans over-analyze everything. And there will always be differing opinions. It is not embarrassing to disagree. If everyone agreed, there would be much less to discuss.

Sargeant79
09-02-2009, 10:44 AM
So was I. :shrug:

I put a lot of my time and effort in around here, I take it a little personally when people refer to it as "an embarrassment."

That's fair. With that in mind, I will qualify my response to the embarrassment post:

Some of these posts that have popped in here for the last 10 days or so are an embarrassment to me as a fan and how it reflects on us as a fan base. I realize that all fan bases have a certain overreactive segment to them, but damn... a good number of the most vocal people who post here have gone from calling Kenny and Ozzie geniuses to demanding their jobs in a matter of about 4 weeks.

I'm just as ticked off as everyone else about how this season has shaped up as a result of this road trip. But suggesting Ozzie Guillen be fired and replaced by Carlton Fisk no less is a new level of ridiculousness.

Marqhead
09-02-2009, 11:03 AM
With JR at the helm, Ozzie and KW will be here for a long time.

With Ozzie at the Helm, I can assume the same for Walk and Harold as well.

This team has the talent. Maybe the players should take their heads out of their asses and start playing like they are capable of, and then we wouldn't have to play the coaching blame game.

PaleHoser
09-02-2009, 11:17 AM
Although Greg Walker shoulders some of the blame for the lack of hitting fundamentals, he doesn't make the lineups. Walker can be the best coach in the world, but it's up to the players to execute and it's up to the manager to put them in situations where they can succeed.

It's obvious the Sox are going to in a new direction next year. What concerns me is how well Ozzie's style will apply with younger players. I'm not suggesting he be replaced, but if I'd have him on a short leash.

kitekrazy
09-02-2009, 12:05 PM
Although Greg Walker shoulders some of the blame for the lack of hitting fundamentals, he doesn't make the lineups. Walker can be the best coach in the world, but it's up to the players to execute and it's up to the manager to put them in situations where they can succeed.


I would think power hitters have the biggest trouble making adjustments at the plate. I'm not sure a hitting coach can do much with older veterans whose job is to hit the ball out of the park. There are a lot of home run hitters who struggled this year.

Lip Man 1
09-02-2009, 12:11 PM
Kenny and Ozzie aren't going anyplace...you may, repeat may, seen a change or two in the coaching staff but that's it.

Lip

khan
09-02-2009, 12:29 PM
I think its entirely reasonable for each and every coach to be evaluated at the end of the season, and replaced, if necessary.

Having said that, the inconsistencies in the offense don't show up in the season totals. The 10 and 11 run bonanzas in June and July have masked the ****ty output of late, when one views the season totals. Someone has to be held accountable for this area.

The team STILL can't catch a cold. I will never expect a "great" defensive team on the South Side, I accept that as reality. But if this team was even MEDIOCRE at defense, this team would be running away with the division. The bullpen wouldn't be as exposed as it has been, as a result. Each and every SP would have had a few more wins as well. Someone also should be held accountable.

Since Tim Raines was fired, the bad baserunning has gotten worse. Podsednik got picked off in crucial situations, which cost the team a few possible wins here and there. Again, someone should be held accountable.

Finally, this team has a tendency to play DOWN to crappier opposition. IMO, the season was NOT lost @ the sawx and yankees and minnesota last week. The season was lost earlier, when the SOX couldn't take 2 of 3 from a ****ty team like Baltimore before they went on the road. Or when Cy Sowers and the depleted Cleveland Indians took 2 of 3 AT USCF.

This team also has a tendency to allow ****ty SPs like Blackburn and Manship [both of whom had >5.00 ERAs in August before facing the SOX] make them look like fools. IMO, no one in the organization should be taking this sort of thing lying down. There is no good reason for bad pitchers to make this or any MLB-quality offense look this bad. Again, someone should be held to account for this tendency to play DOWN to opponents and to poor opposing pitchers.

Zisk77
09-02-2009, 01:00 PM
What I never understood was during 2005 and the World Series, I kept hearing about "Ozzie Ball", "Small Ball" and "Grinders". We win with that style of play and immediately change the composition of the team by getting bigger and slower.

We get Pods back early this season and suddenly, we're running the base paths better, bunting, etc. and most importantly winning. I'm not saying Pods was the answer, however he helped bring back a style of play we had not seen in awhile.

Since mid-summer, it's like the team has returned to it's all or nothing offensive mindset.

If KW and the SOX brass are serious about winning, why did they abandon the philosophy that proved successful?! Is it just the lack of players to support this philosophy?


Yes, essential. Even 2005 did not have a bunch of guys who played "Ozzie ball", just the first 2 batter and Willie Harris off the bench. We were very much a hr hitting club (200 for the year). Remember how many times Uribe & Crede failed to get a bunt down? No one else was asked to sac, just slug.

The present club has Nix, getz, Alexie, Pods, & Beckham (Rios?) who are decent to good at sacrificing, stealing base, hitting & running, and hitting behind runners..."ozzie ball".

thomas35forever
09-02-2009, 01:42 PM
Ranger has stated before on here and on the air that the only reasons Ozzie would go would be either he's sick of the job or he says something to really piss off management. That said, Ozzie and KW brought JR a World Series title, so the owner's got their backs for a long time. As for the rest of the coaches, that will be completely up to Ozzie. Few changes have been made since '05 because he trusts these men to do their jobs. One bad season does not mean anyone's job is in trouble. I see your points, but management loyalty and trust will prevent most moves you want from happening.

Dan H
09-02-2009, 02:24 PM
I am not one to call for anyone's head now, especially in the heat of a bad situation. But I hope that Williams and Guillen don't have lifetime jobs no matter what. Managers and GMS do get fired. However, I'd rather see them succeed than get fired. On general priniciple, I don't like to see anyone lose their job, and am not crazy about managers' spots becoming revolving doors.

But I hope some real changes are made. For the last few years, the Sox have lost too many games in the late innings and the offense tends go in protracted slumps. The face of the offense has to change, and the team needs some reliable bullpen help.

gobears1987
09-02-2009, 02:39 PM
Oh and I can assure you Ozzie will never be fired. I met Jerry Reinsdorf at an AEPi event last year and got to talk to him. He pretty much said Ozzie has his job as long as he wants it. The same can be said for Kenny. I like have an owner who isn't reactive like many others who fire coaches on a whim. Reinsdorf is a smart man and knows that what is going on is not Ozzie's fault.

Ozzie's tenure as manager will end only when Ozzie decides it will. JR won't even fire Ozzie for running his mouth.

Tragg
09-02-2009, 03:14 PM
I certainly don't understand what Guillens' done to merit lifetime employment. (or employment past this year, imo).
JR's a loyal guy, so it wouldn't surprise me.

As for new coaches, I'd replace Cora with a serious, professional 2nd in command who will challenge him and make up for his deficiencies (strategy and particularly awful talent evalution skills).

whitesoxfan
09-02-2009, 03:21 PM
This site has become an embarrassment over the last 36 hours. When did all the Cub fans get here?

At least we're taking on the identity of the Sox quite well.

I agree with you, though, that Ozzie shouldn't and won't be fired. He managed a World Series winner, which last I checked, is pretty rare in the city of Chicago. While he's not the best manager in the world, I do think he's in the top third of managers in the game.

Walker definitely needs to go. As for the rest of our staff, I don't have any problems with them.

palehozenychicty
09-02-2009, 03:45 PM
With JR at the helm, Ozzie and KW will be here for a long time.

With Ozzie at the Helm, I can assume the same for Walk and Harold as well.

This team has the talent. Maybe the players should take their heads out of their asses and start playing like they are capable of, and then we wouldn't have to play the coaching blame game.


I don't buy this anymore. We've been waiting for these guys to be consistent, and they haven't been since mid-2006. Sure, 2007 was a flat-out disaster, but last year they played very much the same way as this year and snuck in. This team needs a little more surgery.

Marqhead
09-02-2009, 03:50 PM
I don't buy this anymore. We've been waiting for these guys to be consistent, and they haven't been since mid-2006. Sure, 2007 was a flat-out disaster, but last year they played very much the same way as this year and snuck in. This team needs a little more surgery.

I feel they have the talent as is to win this division, but with a little surgery they become pennant contenders. I don't think a coaching change helps this team at all.

The rotation is 4/5 set for next year, and it's one of the best 4 in the league. The bullpen has holes but also has quality pieces in Carrasco, Thornton and Jenks.

The everyday lineup might need another bat, and we probably still need a lead off man.

I'm just not sure what a complete coaching change accomplishes at this point. I think personnel changes on the field will yield more results than changes on the bench.

doublem23
09-02-2009, 05:28 PM
It's Time... to rip off 9-10 wins in a row.

(Sorry, I'm still feeling pretty giddy.)

JB98
09-02-2009, 05:44 PM
I'm not sure why there is so much heartache about Ozzie and his dealings with young players. Some young players have thrived here. Others have not.

This year, we learned that Beckham and Getz can play. We learned that Anderson and Fields cannot. That's just how it goes. Because certain young players failed, that doesn't necessarily mean the manager is to blame.

DickAllen72
09-02-2009, 06:23 PM
Blackjack can talk about the Twins doing the little things, but the big thing they do is hit the ball. Look at their boppers...Mauer,Morneau,Kubel,Cuddyer....all having big years, and compare them to our boppers, Carlos,Thome,JD and PK..second half numbers not close.
That's a great point. I was just thinking along those lines during last night's game. Everybody assumes that once the Twins leave the dome they are going to struggle. But if you look at those four guys, they may transition well into more of an offensive oriented team.

Those four middle of the order Twins hitters compare favorably to any four 2010 projected middle of the order Sox hitters.

KW has his work cut out for him to make the Sox contenders next year.

DickAllen72
09-02-2009, 06:27 PM
The everyday lineup might need another bat, and we probably still need a lead off man.

They'll need two more bats to take the Thome and Dye slots, a leadoff man plus they need to drastically improve the defense.

Marqhead
09-02-2009, 06:35 PM
They'll need two more bats to take the Thome and Dye slots, a leadoff man plus they need to drastically improve the defense.

I have a feeling Dye will be back with the club. He is slumping, hopefully temporarily, but I just don't see too many better options for DH/RF.

WSox597
09-02-2009, 06:53 PM
Uggghhh!!!!! Will the Anderson/FOBA arguments ever end?

Not a fan boy of Anderson actually, just didn't want to see Mackowiak in CF ever.

I'm just fine with the fact that Anderson is gone, he just didn't work out.

WSox597
09-02-2009, 06:55 PM
Amen!




He was voicing his opinion.

And so were we all. Whether the herd agrees with it or not.

hawkjt
09-03-2009, 12:00 AM
Just saw Ken Rosenthel on Comcast and he says the Ozzie rips on this players constantly and that some players do better when they get away from Ozzie and then cited McDougal and Orlando Cabrera? Rosenthel is an idiot.

Lip Man 1
09-03-2009, 12:40 AM
This is an incomplete assessment.

He was asked if Ozzie's comments were causing a divide between himself and Kenny.

Rosenthal said no, in fact he said, Kenny probably feels exactly the same way as Ozzie, that this team has underperformed badly and quit at times.

He said that Ozzie's ways wear on certain players, that the dynamic with the White Sox is like a pressure cooker and some guys just don't perform under those circumstances and do better when they leave.

He praised Ozzie, saying he was a good manager and a good tactician but that he might want to take a lesson from other successful managers like Charlie Manuel, Joe Torre and at least occasionally chew out his players in private.

He was then asked about the Sox needs... would they upgrade the bullpen? His answer was leadoff and the bullpen if possible but that Kenny wasn't going to blow it up and start over. He said a bullpen is the most volital piece from year to year on a team and that it's impossible to start from scratch, he said Kenny would try to upgrade a piece or two if he could.

Lip

slavko
09-03-2009, 01:03 AM
Just saw Ken Rosenthel on Comcast and he says the Ozzie rips on this players constantly and that some players do better when they get away from Ozzie and then cited McDougal and Orlando Cabrera? Rosenthel is an idiot.

No he isn't. Not totally anyway. Oz, KW and JR all open their fat yaps at the wrong time once in a while.

Konerko05
09-03-2009, 03:55 AM
Just saw Ken Rosenthel on Comcast and he says the Ozzie rips on this players constantly and that some players do better when they get away from Ozzie and then cited McDougal and Orlando Cabrera? Rosenthel is an idiot.

Those were the examples he used? Cabrera pretty much played to his career averages with the White Sox. He is actually playing worse this year after getting away from Guillen.

Mike MacDougal has found some success in his third organization at age 32. He still has the same amount of walks as strikeouts so I wouldn't be so quick to deem it a turnaround. In fact, he actually had a better short stint of success under Guillen in 2006.

Swisher would have been a much better example.

TheBigHurtST
09-03-2009, 05:17 AM
That is ridiculous. First of all, blaming the coaching staff for the lack of fundamentals is absurd.

*Sigh*

I love how many people have this delusion that the staff has NOTHING to do with the failures of any player.

WSox597
09-03-2009, 07:31 AM
Ozzie doesn't do well with young players? I guess that is why Getz and Bacon have sucked big time and this team is sucking. If anything, the young player are doing the best under Ozzie this year and the veterans are tanking so your argument looks to be pretty flimsy. Then again, the fire Ozzie crowd has nevr had anything to stand on when asked to bring up a well constructed argument.

This site has become an embarrassment over the last 36 hours. When did all the Cub fans get here?

Cub fans? Smoke another one.

Nobody's excited, except you. Just a calm discussion about possibilities.

I specifically said "so the story goes" about Guillen not liking young players. I don't actually know, since I'm never in the clubhouse. None of us are.

Lighten up, it's a discussion. If you don't agree with it, that's fine. No need to get hostile.

We're bored, the season appears to be over for the Sox. We're starved for things to talk about.

The fact remains, the Sox aren't very good at the fundamentals. The players are at fault of course, but you can't fire the entire team. These are the things that managers normally take the fall for, if the team doesn't play well, they're usually fired, deservedly or not.

hawkjt
09-03-2009, 09:40 AM
This is an incomplete assessment.

He was asked if Ozzie's comments were causing a divide between himself and Kenny.

Rosenthal said no, in fact he said, Kenny probably feels exactly the same way as Ozzie, that this team has underperformed badly and quit at times.

He said that Ozzie's ways wear on certain players, that the dynamic with the White Sox is like a pressure cooker and some guys just don't perform under those circumstances and do better when they leave.

He praised Ozzie, saying he was a good manager and a good tactician but that he might want to take a lesson from other successful managers like Charlie Manuel, Joe Torre and at least occasionally chew out his players in private.

He was then asked about the Sox needs... would they upgrade the bullpen? His answer was leadoff and the bullpen if possible but that Kenny wasn't going to blow it up and start over. He said a bullpen is the most volital piece from year to year on a team and that it's impossible to start from scratch, he said Kenny would try to upgrade a piece or two if he could.

Lip


I only cited the part of the interview that I thought was just not correct.
This is the way that the national media like Wild Thing Williams ends up surmising that Ozzie ruined Jose by being too hard on a sensitive guy. And the players surveys end up saying that Ozzie is hard to play for...all a bunch of bull.
You actually agree with him when he says that Ozzie is ripping on his players almost every day? You agree with him when he says that Cabrera and McDougal underperformed as Sox due to Ozzie's criticism?
Sorry, I guess we will agree to disagree. I agree that maybe you could cite Nick Swisher as a possible example of a player who did not flourish under Ozzie...but even that is a stretch. Swish got his chance and did not hit good enough.
All I know is that for all the players that go thru the Sox organization, I rarely hear a player come back and say that ozzie was unfair or hard to play for...and his current players clearly seem to like him.

Lip Man 1
09-03-2009, 12:31 PM
Hawk:

Agree or disagree has nothing to do with it. The picture you painted of him was a blabbering idiot.

Nothing can be further than the truth.

And it's a fact that some players have played better after they got away from Ozzie...that's reality. Some guys simply can't handle him.

I'll submit that over time, the team tunes him out, they get used to it...which is why the players themselves (the so-called team leaders) have to get more directly engaged when guys are screwing up, taking mental vacations, losing to garbage teams.

It can't just be Ozzie (but that's all the Sox have right now it seems...)

Lip

soxfanreggie
09-03-2009, 12:51 PM
Sometimes I think when he has a little success, a WS title, getting Carlos Quentin, he gets a swelled head. This will bring him back to earth. I expect a far more fundamentally sound team next season.

Are you saying that a World Series title is "a little success"? :?:
Are you saying acquiring a guy who in his one full season was a top MVP candidate is "a little success"? :?:

IMO, those are big successes. A little success is getting some journeyman player for the league minimum and he comes in and bats .275 with 15 homers and 80 RBIs. A little success is when one of my employees finds a $1,000 error. A big success is when they find a way to save $400,000 (a big success in our department).

Harry Chappas
09-03-2009, 12:53 PM
It's hard to take seriously anyone that would suggest Fisk for the job of manager. Yeah, his "fire and passion" would surely make this team perform better. I'd give Fisk about a month before he completely lost his team.

Blaming this year's misfortunes and poor fundamentals on the coaching staff is lame. The real culprit is ability, or lack thereof. Alexei isn't a good shortstop. Beckham and Getz are rookies. TCQ is average in left, Pods sucks anywhere you put him, and Dye has the range of a beached manatee. They suck defensively...because they suck defensively. No amount of coaching is going to make them good.

As for their offense, again, is a "fiery" coach going to shake JD out of his 2nd half coma? Is it going to make PK or Thome run faster? Is it going to add 100 baseball IQ points to Pods empty head?

The best way to fix the poor fundementals is with roster changes, not blowing up the coaching staff.

fram40
09-03-2009, 12:59 PM
I'll submit that over time, the team tunes him out, they get used to it...which is why the players themselves (the so-called team leaders) have to get more directly engaged when guys are screwing up, taking mental vacations, losing to garbage teams.

It can't just be Ozzie (but that's all the Sox have right now it seems...)

Lip

One question I have - how do we know the players are not getting directly engaged? (one example - we saw AJ and TCM have a disagreement a few months ago in the dugout)

All I ever hear is speculation in the press from a lot of people who generally seem to have things wrong. I don't remember any player commenting on the clubhouse leadership (or lack thereof) since Carl Everett. And that was almost four years ago. So hhow do we know what is going on now?

JB98
09-03-2009, 01:01 PM
It's hard to take seriously anyone that would suggest Fisk for the job of manager. Yeah, his "fire and passion" would surely make this team perform better. I'd give Fisk about a month before he completely lost his team.

Blaming this year's misfortunes and poor fundementals on the coaching staff is lame. The real culprit is ability, or lack thereof. Alexei isn't a good shortstop. Beckham and Getz are rookies. TCQ is average in left, Pods sucks anywhere you put him, and Dye has the range of a beached manitee. They suck defensively...because they suck defensively. No amount of coaching is going to make them good.

As for their offense, again, is a "fiery" coach going to shake JD out of his 2nd half coma? Is it going to make PK or Thome run faster? Is it going to add 100 baseball IQ points to Pods empty head?

The best way to fix the poor fundementals is with roster changes, not blowing up the coaching staff.

I agree with your comments about Fisk. Him as a manager makes no sense to me. In any case, there are few managers in baseball who are more "fiery" than Ozzie Guillen. He gave quite a tirade after that lackluster 10-0 loss in New York. It didn't provide the team much spark, so I'm not sure more "fire and passion" from the manager is what is needed anyway.

Zisk77
09-03-2009, 01:17 PM
Actually I believe our fundamentals have gotten better versus the past it soley in the execution. i'll give you some examples what i mean before you wonder if i banged my head.

1. Of hitting the cut-off man is a good funadamental. In our last homestand a run scored when a throw could not have been handled by alexei from TCQ. The obvious reaction is poor funamentals, which was wrong. Alexei was where he should have been. Since it was a conceeded double, Nix was trailing behind alexei about 15 ft like he should and paulie was trailing the hitter to 2b in case he rounded too far. tCQ EXECUTED a poor throw to alexie that bounced threw his legs but Nix was where he was supposed to be an fielded the ball which prevented any further advancement, but get the runner at the plate.

2. Twice in Seattle runners tried to score from 2b on a single to RF both times Dye through the ball low enough to be cut on its way home. Now in the past I 've seen us cut the ball and throw the guy out trying to take second. But I never saw US have the second baseman sneak in behind the runner and cut the ball and throw the runner out going back to first. But we did it twice in Seattle (which shows the coaching staff is teaching our players not just letting them play)

3. The Sox are about the only team i see that will try to pick a player off of 1b when the first baseman is playing behin the runner.

4. We have been 100x better sac bunting then in the past and are good at hitting & running.

I believe the players have been taught what and how to do things right. Unfortunatley many are not good at actually doing them.

hawkjt
09-03-2009, 01:32 PM
Hawk:

Agree or disagree has nothing to do with it. The picture you painted of him was a blabbering idiot.

Nothing can be further than the truth.

And it's a fact that some players have played better after they got away from Ozzie...that's reality. Some guys simply can't handle him.

I'll submit that over time, the team tunes him out, they get used to it...which is why the players themselves (the so-called team leaders) have to get more directly engaged when guys are screwing up, taking mental vacations, losing to garbage teams.

It can't just be Ozzie (but that's all the Sox have right now it seems...)

Lip

Ok, I will rephrase my comment. In my opinion Rosenthel made some idiotic statements about how Orlando Cabrera and Mike McDougal's performance was adversely affected by by Ozzie's style.

Better?

Lip Man 1
09-03-2009, 05:49 PM
Yes...much.

Fram:

The personalities of those 'leaders' (i.e. Buehrle, Dye, Thome, Konerko) aren't outgoing in your face types.

For them to call out a player, tip over the postgame food spread or rip a teammate to the media would be so out of character for them, someone in the media would have got wind of it and we'd know.

The Sox have quiet leaders, guys who lead by example.

Sometimes you need a different kind of 'leadership' and if the only guy doing it is Ozzie, sooner or later he's going to be tuned out.

It always means so much more when a teammate says something than the manager...just as in any profession (i.e. a co-worker as opposed to a boss)

The Sox have had those in the past...Landis, Fisk, McDowell, Ozzie (as a player), Greg Hibbard. They need a few now.

Lip

I_Liked_Manuel
09-03-2009, 10:34 PM
I don't think that he's a great manager, but I don't think that the problems can be traced back to guillen. In '05, we won with speed at the top, a 2 hitter that could hit to right, power in the middle, and unreal starting pitching at the right time. I'm not saying that its the only recipe for success, but it worked on the south side. Since then, we have been a slow, inconsistent, slugging team. Ozzie clearly doesn't have the makeup that he wants, and that falls on Kenny for falling prey to the adage that you have to build your team to fit your home park. What we have is a team that, when hot, is going to beat you 10-2, but we also have a team that when cold will look ridiculous at the plate and in the field. Again, this falls squarely on kennys shoulders. Walker should have been gone 2 years ago, because even though the players are professionals, teams employ hitting coaches to get guys to hit consistenty; the white sox don't. Out side of that, the coaches aren't the problem imo.