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View Full Version : One Big Whopper of a Story Last Night


KingXerxes
09-01-2009, 06:10 PM
I always leave open the possibility that I'm wrong, so if anybody can enlighten me I would be greatly appreciative.

Last night, after a picture of Tony Oliva was shown:

:hawk

"Yessir..........Ol' Tony Oliva. You know Ol' Stone Pony, in Kansas City he used to hit our pitchers so well that Ol' Alvin Dark told the staff that they were supposed to just throw him fastballs over the plate because he couldn't possibly do more damage than he was already doing. Well anyway Ol' Catfish Hunter told Tony that he was going to throw him a fastball right down the middle of the plate - you could do that back then..........you can't now because they've changed the rules - and Ol' Tony just took an 83 mph fastball right over the plate. You know they told him what was coming all four time, and he went 0 for 4 that day."

OK - again - I don't pretend to know everything about baseball or its rule book, but can somebody steer me toward a website or a book that will enlighten me about baseball passing a rule sometime after 1962 that made "pitchers telling hitters what was coming next" illegal?

I know there are stories - usually funny ones - about pitchers tipping off hitters (Denny McLain / Mickey Mantle is probably the most famous), but what is Harrelson talking about? It was never an everyday occurence, it was usually a sign that somebody had sold out to gamblers - and I can't believe it was EVER OK to do.

Again - I may be way off base, so please - if anybody has any substantiation (a Commissioner Ruling etc.) - let me know.

BadBobbyJenks
09-01-2009, 06:12 PM
I am still trying to figure out how Hawk survived the dome explosion while sitting in the booth.

chisoxfanatic
09-01-2009, 06:13 PM
I am still trying to figure out how Hawk survived the dome explosion while sitting in the booth.
That was the best part of the entire broadcast last night.

I can't believe tomorrow is our last game in that place...Thank God!

thomas35forever
09-01-2009, 06:18 PM
I am still trying to figure out how Hawk survived the dome explosion while sitting in the booth.
Hawk is neither man nor god. He is just Hawk.

DumpJerry
09-01-2009, 06:24 PM
That was the best part of the entire broadcast last night.

I can't believe tomorrow is our last game in that place...Thank God!
Haven't you heard? The Twins have said they will play the White Sox in the Dome for old time's sake for the next ten years. Yeah, I read it on the Internet and if it's on the Internet, it MUST be true.

The Sox' last game in that rathole is 28 years too late.

MarkZ35
09-01-2009, 06:25 PM
The only rule off the top of my head is the sportsmanship rule. Where you can't yell at a fielder while running the bases (ARod) or tell a guy it was a foul ball on a steal. I know that a ump can throw you out for doing either of those.

KingXerxes
09-01-2009, 06:55 PM
I haven't seen anything that would substantiate Harrelson's story in a rulebook or anywhere else.

TommyJohn
09-01-2009, 07:04 PM
I always leave open the possibility that I'm wrong, so if anybody can enlighten me I would be greatly appreciative.

Last night, after a picture of Tony Oliva was shown:

:hawk

"Yessir..........Ol' Tony Oliva. You know Ol' Stone Pony, in Kansas City he used to hit our pitchers so well

What hitters DIDN'T hit Kansas City A's pitching real well? Hell, Dave Nicholson, one of the bigger busts in Sox history, hit the longest home run in Comiskey Park history off Moe Drabowsky of the A's. Drabowsky, incidentally, was the greatest player ever produced by Ozzana, Poland. At Least according to Mike Royko.

KingXerxes
09-01-2009, 07:17 PM
Do you remember a conversation taking place between Drabowsky and Nicholson prior to the home run being hit?

Taliesinrk
09-01-2009, 07:33 PM
You know... Hawk didn't say "they've changed the rules in the MLB rulebook" or comment on anything written. I would take that statement (and I didn't see the game, FWIW), to mean that either baseball as a game and culture has changed (the unwritten rules have morphed in the last 40 years to not allow some stuff to go on), or that they've changed the rules for umpires... like what they can allow to happen vs. what they must crack down on.

The latter seems somewhat unlikely, however, because if that's what he meant, it would have been followed by a 5 min. rant on how much the umpires take over and control the games now instead of letting the players play and things to work themselves out (inevitably leading to comments regarding umpires issuing warnings before the Sox have even hit anyone with numerous examples including, but not limited to Mark Beuhrle's Baltimore fiasco... or a non-warning example of Joe Crede getting hit in Oakland but not being awarded first <--- classic Hawk moments).

KingXerxes
09-01-2009, 09:15 PM
That may be what he meant, but he blurted it out as if there was some sort of formal rule change or commish ruling concerning a pitcher "telling" a batter what was coming next. As if it were ever OK to do this. I know that early in baseball's existence, batters could tell pitchers where they wanted the pitch, but that was in the 19th Century, and he was talking about the 1960's.

Now - before he distorts the English Language even futher - Harrelson has taken to calling a swing and a miss by an opponent as being "Big Hat - No Cattle". I don't know exactly when he decided to try and coin yet another phrase, but this one doesn't even fit the situation.

"Big Hat - No Cattle" is a phrase used to describe someone who talks/acts a great game, but has absolutely nothing substantial to back up all the talking/acting. In no way does it mean attempting to do something but failing (as in a swing and a miss).

Here - Let me give you a great illustration of the proper use of "Big Hat - No Cattle":

"After talking and talking about how much he knew about baseball, Ken Harrelson somehow talked Jerry Reinsdorf into letting him be the general manager of the White Sox during the 1986 season. The results were laughably disatrous, and pretty much showed Ken Harrelson to be "Big Hat - No Cattle" when it came to baseball. Harrelson then had to leave Chicago and broadcast New York Yankee games for two years."

I gone the entire year without complaining about this self-promoter, but I can hold my silence no longer. Maybe baseball will pass another rule where I can't complain about Harrelson, but they haven't yet.

Viva Medias B's
09-01-2009, 09:53 PM
I am still trying to figure out how Hawk survived the dome explosion while sitting in the booth.

And how they rebuilt it so fast for tonight's game.

Lip Man 1
09-01-2009, 10:36 PM
King:

In 1972 or 1973 the Sox were in Anaheim. Nolan Ryan was pitching and called his catcher Ellie Rodriguez out to the mound. Ryan told him to tell Dick Allen he was getting nothing but fastballs.

Rodriguez went back to the plate and told Dick. Dick looked at him and said "let's get it on..."

Allen doubled and flied out deep to right that night.

Ryan simply wanted to test himself against the best hitter in the league.

Lip

ode to veeck
09-01-2009, 10:38 PM
King:

In 1972 or 1973 the Sox were in Anaheim. Nolan Ryan was pitching and called his catcher Ellie Rodriguez out to the mound. Ryan told him to tell Dick Allen he was getting nothing but fastballs.

Rodriguez went back to the plate and told Dick. Dick looked at him and said "let's get it on..."

Allen doubled and flied out deep to right that night.

Ryan simply wanted to test himself against the best hitter in the league.

Lip

great story and a perfect characture of both players too

MarkZ35
09-01-2009, 10:55 PM
Umpires are just like baseball players. You have your good ones, your avg. ones, and your bad ones. Now Tim Tschida on the other hand is a good umpire.

SOX ADDICT '73
09-01-2009, 11:39 PM
..."Big Hat - No Cattle" is a phrase used to describe someone who talks/acts a great game, but has absolutely nothing substantial to back up all the talking/acting....
Sounds to me like a pretty accurate description of White Sox baseball over the past two weeks.

Though I agree that the world has enough "Hawkisms" without him creating more.

slavko
09-02-2009, 12:12 AM
The only rule off the top of my head is the sportsmanship rule. Where you can't yell at a fielder while running the bases (ARod) or tell a guy it was a foul ball on a steal. I know that a ump can throw you out for doing either of those.

Didn't our own Juan Uribe do the latter to Cubs' Derrek Lee once upon a time and get away with it? The time for Hot Stove League talk has officially begun. The baseball season is over.

KingXerxes
09-02-2009, 09:07 AM
King:

In 1972 or 1973 the Sox were in Anaheim. Nolan Ryan was pitching and called his catcher Ellie Rodriguez out to the mound. Ryan told him to tell Dick Allen he was getting nothing but fastballs.

Rodriguez went back to the plate and told Dick. Dick looked at him and said "let's get it on..."

Allen doubled and flied out deep to right that night.

Ryan simply wanted to test himself against the best hitter in the league.

Lip

Thanks Lip.

I agree that pitchers telling hitters what's coming next took place - and usually these stories have a humorous vein, and maybe I'm just taking Harrelson the wrong way, but on Monday night he was telling it as if it took place all the time, and a rule change was implemented to stop the practice.

KingXerxes
09-02-2009, 09:09 AM
Though I agree that the world has enough "Hawkisms" without him creating more.

Amen to that.

Like most of the others "stretch" this one "stretch....stretch" seems to be "stretch.....stretch" too contrived to catch on "dadgummit".

areilly
09-02-2009, 10:02 AM
Thanks Lip.

I agree that pitchers telling hitters what's coming next took place - and usually these stories have a humorous vein, and maybe I'm just taking Harrelson the wrong way, but on Monday night he was telling it as if it took place all the time, and a rule change was implemented to stop the practice.

With each passing season, I take less and less of what Hawk says seriously. This year is/was down to around 30%, because that's just the way I play the game. But you can't do that anymore, because the game has changed so much. It used to be, a guy threw inside, guys would go after each other with baseball bats. Big bats, too. I remember Yaz, good ol' Yaz, he used to swing a 53-ounce bat. Now, you've got guys out there with 34, 35-ounce bats and that's why you need to be able to hit the cutoff man. Was tall as a tree, that Yaz was, and strong as one too. Nowadays, you've got bad umpires, and you've got good umpires, and that right there is easily the best player in the game. Because it's like Alvin Dark once told me: it's not about scoring more runs than the other team,; it's about keeping the other team from outwinning you.

KingXerxes
09-02-2009, 10:16 AM
with each passing season, i take less and less of what hawk says seriously. This year is/was down to around 30%, because that's just the way i play the game. But you can't do that anymore, because the game has changed so much. It used to be, a guy threw inside, guys would go after each other with baseball bats. Big bats, too. I remember yaz, good ol' yaz, he used to swing a 53-ounce bat. Now, you've got guys out there with 34, 35-ounce bats and that's why you need to be able to hit the cutoff man. Was tall as a tree, that yaz was, and strong as one too. Nowadays, you've got bad umpires, and you've got good umpires, and that right there is easily the best player in the game. Because it's like alvin dark once told me: It's not about scoring more runs than the other team,; it's about keeping the other team from outwinning you.

lol!

GAsoxfan
09-02-2009, 12:50 PM
ow - before he distorts the English Language even futher - Harrelson has taken to calling a swing and a miss by an opponent as being "Big Hat - No Cattle". I don't know exactly when he decided to try and coin yet another phrase, but this one doesn't even fit the situation.

I thought he was saying "Big Hack - No Contact".

TommyGavinFloyd
09-02-2009, 12:56 PM
I thought he was saying "Big Hack - No Contact".

Me too. I've watched 95 percent of the games this season live and the rest dvr'd (unfortunately) and I haven't heard him say that saying one time. "big hack, no contact" on the other hand, i have heard him say at least once a game.

KingXerxes
09-02-2009, 01:53 PM
Me too. I've watched 95 percent of the games this season live and the rest dvr'd (unfortunately) and I haven't heard him say that saying one time. "big hack, no contact" on the other hand, i have heard him say at least once a game.

I agree earlier this year he started saying "Big hack - no contact", but for the past two or three games it has morphed into "Big hat - no cattle". I believe he even said it in the ninth inning yesterday when the White Sox were batting (which was a first, because it had been only when the opposition was batting prior to that).

gobears1987
09-02-2009, 02:02 PM
Can we have a chat with Farmio please? Those were my favorite threads KingXerxes.

TommyGavinFloyd
09-02-2009, 02:25 PM
I agree earlier this year he started saying "Big hack - no contact", but for the past two or three games it has morphed into "Big hat - no cattle". I believe he even said it in the ninth inning yesterday when the White Sox were batting (which was a first, because it had been only when the opposition was batting prior to that).

Well, if that is what he said, you said it is "a phrase used to describe someone who talks/acts a great game, but has absolutely nothing substantial to back up all the talking/acting"

Wouldn't someone who thinks they have a ton of power and take a huge swing but whiff and do nothing qualify? :scratch:

Railsplitter
09-02-2009, 02:36 PM
There are plenty of stories like this in baseball lore.

Dizzy Dean is reputed to have told reports the day before a game what he would by throwing nothing but fastballs. With such such a tip in the morning papers (this was the 1930's when they staill hade afternoon papers) Dean supposedly threw a shutout.

fram40
09-02-2009, 04:40 PM
Me too. I've watched 95 percent of the games this season live and the rest dvr'd (unfortunately) and I haven't heard him say that saying one time. "big hack, no contact" on the other hand, i have heard him say at least once a game.

agreed that Hawk usually says "big hack no contact".

Perhaps it has morphed into "big hat - no cattle" on this road trip because - like most of, I suspect - Hawk has started his liquid refreshment much earlier than usual.

Waysouthsider
09-02-2009, 04:50 PM
Sometimes there is food with all substance and no flavor.....take celery for instance.

Hawk is all flavor and.....well, I'm not sure how much substance, but a lot of flavor!

I listen to Stone and respect him, but I love Hawk.....not for his data but for his investment in the game and his flavor....

KingXerxes
09-02-2009, 08:54 PM
Well, if that is what he said, you said it is "a phrase used to describe someone who talks/acts a great game, but has absolutely nothing substantial to back up all the talking/acting"

Wouldn't someone who thinks they have a ton of power and take a huge swing but whiff and do nothing qualify? :scratch:

No.

A good example of "Big Hat - No Cattle" would be an unsuccessful real estate developer who sits around Gibson's every day and hangs around with rich and successful business men songing drinks off of them every night, just so the next morning he could walk into the office and tell people about "who he had dinner with, how so and so's wife is doing etc.. Then - when this guy actually had to come up with $100,000 to fund a deal - he would meekly dissappear.

That is "Big Hat - No Cattle".

Anyboy who has made it to the major leagues has already shown that he has "cattle". The fact that a player tries to rip the cover off a ball, and misses doesn't make him a phony.

Being a phony is the essence of the saying "Big Hat - No Cattle". It doesn't apply to a swing and a miss.

slavko
09-02-2009, 08:56 PM
With each passing season, I take less and less of what Hawk says seriously. This year is/was down to around 30%, because that's just the way I play the game. But you can't do that anymore, because the game has changed so much. It used to be, a guy threw inside, guys would go after each other with baseball bats. Big bats, too. I remember Yaz, good ol' Yaz, he used to swing a 53-ounce bat. Now, you've got guys out there with 34, 35-ounce bats and that's why you need to be able to hit the cutoff man. Was tall as a tree, that Yaz was, and strong as one too. Nowadays, you've got bad umpires, and you've got good umpires, and that right there is easily the best player in the game. Because it's like Alvin Dark once told me: it's not about scoring more runs than the other team,; it's about keeping the other team from outwinning you.

You, my friend, have a gift.:D: I can't stop laughing! Hawk is so good at this stream-of-conciousness stuff. Or is it unconsciousness?

KingXerxes
09-02-2009, 09:17 PM
Can we have a chat with Farmio please? Those were my favorite threads KingXerxes.

gobears1987 - I've got to be honest. I'd love to try another Ask Farmio thread, but it would be impossible to meet expectations. The fact that the original made it all the way to "#2 All Time" (behind the 2005 WSC Thread) was very flattering, but also a bit intimidating.

:farmer

"When it comes to speaking about flattery, it can be very flattering to be flattered but the flattery has to be earned flattery thereby making the flattery earnest flattery from the flatterer. When I was a young flatterer - this was when I wore socks, not Sox, in Evergreen Park Little League, I never played as much as I thought I should have but fixed this through flattery. I flattered my first coach Mr. Flaherty with flattery, and I did finally get his attention. I'll never forget the day he looked down the bench and yelled, "Hey - you...........Farmer........run over to the stands and get me a pack of Luckies."

:DJ

"Your coach made you get him cigarettes?"

:farmer

"Well anyway, after four years of getting smokes for the coaches, I was home enjoying a big glass of Goofy Grape drink mix, when my mom told me, "Ed.....Flattery will get you nowhere, now be a good boy and run down to Convenient and get mom a pack of Salems." I carried that advice with me until one day last year when I was taking in a Rockford Riverhawks game. After the game I couldn't get my 383 cid 4 bbl Plymouth Belvedere started because of a problem with the voltage regulator which was blowing fuses all through the car. Well anyway to make a long story short I had to hitch a ride from the losing pitcher that night - one Mr. Tim Flattery - who drove me home. When I got into the house I saw that my mom had made a big pitcher of Choo Choo Cherry drink, so I sat down and had a glass and wondered if I was dreaming up this whole episode, or if Flattery would in fact get you somewhere."

BigKlu59
09-05-2009, 04:28 PM
Ok Call me stupid, but didnt Tony Oliva play for the Twinkies his whole career?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/olivato01.shtml




BigKlu59

BigKlu59
09-05-2009, 04:37 PM
Well Duh,... Hawk did play for the KC A's.... I just didnt remember those 7 HR seasons in the early 60's.... The way he laments I always presumed he was Carmine Red Through and Through and #40 was an Iconic set of digits... Getting old is a bitch

BigKlu59

FielderJones
09-05-2009, 05:46 PM
I think if we continue to flatter King Xerxes we might get some more Farmio laughs, if not necessarily Ask Farmio. The Goofy Grape line had me laughing so hard, I would have shot Goofy Grape out of my nose had I been drinking some.

:roflmao: