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Nelfox02
09-01-2009, 01:32 PM
Rather than raging or feeling depressed about what is going on now, I chose to focus some energy on fixing the problem

I have now fully committed to the rebuild plan-----dedicate this team back to pitching and D, look for just enough offense

SS-----Jack Wilson from what I have seen this guy can flat out defend, not a gold glover, but solid a little pop in the stick not a lot of options here, Crosby or Everett? Everett is okay but he cant hit at all you have to figure this is a relatively cheap fix?

CF-----again, not too many options my pick? Reed Johnson this kid can defend, again a little pop in the stick, and he will come relatively cheap former Flub, turned good guy otherwise I guess Coco Crisp or if you are willing to commit a little bit of money here but I can live with Reed

DH situation---re up Pods, he will DH from time to time I don’t want to spend any money here this could be a hole…..maybe pick up a declining guy like Nick Johnson or Branyan?? Flowers is back up catcher, give him some time at DH? Kotsay????

RHP for pen----this market is very thin I see no one I really want you may have to hope Pena can step up and try a minor leaguer? I mean, are any of the guys on the FA list worth investing in? I don’t think we will have the dollars to grab a JJ Putz, guess you could try Chad Bradford this one may be tough

5th starter-----Garland, slam dunk


Opening day line up, 2010 25 man

Pods DH
Beckham 3B
Quentin LF
Konerko 1B
AJ C
Rios RF
Alexie 2B
Wilson SS
Reed CF

Starters

Peavy
Floyd
Mark
Danks
Garland

Pen

DJ
Pena
Thornton
Linebrink (ugh)
Jenks
Torres or Hudson or Chad Bradford or a AA/AAA prospect

Bench

Getz
Kotsay
Nix
Flowers
Wise or Dayan Viciedo or remove this spot and go with another arm in the pen

Rip this one up all you want, jut my first draft off the top of the head.....

The Immigrant
09-01-2009, 01:36 PM
CF-----again, not too many options.....

This is where I stopped reading.

soltrain21
09-01-2009, 01:37 PM
We have a center fielder. His name is Alex Rios.

Nelfox02
09-01-2009, 01:39 PM
We have a center fielder. His name is Alex Rios.


Are we totally sure about that? With Dye leaving, would he not fit in better as the everyday RF and bring in better defender in center, make the defense strong up the middle again? (assuming Alexie can find form back at 2B?)

oeo
09-01-2009, 01:42 PM
Are we totally sure about that? With Dye leaving, would he not fit in better as the everyday RF and bring in better defender in center, make the defense strong up the middle again? (assuming Alexie can find form back at 2B?)

Rios is a very good centerfielder. And his bat profiles much better as a centerfielder.

soltrain21
09-01-2009, 01:43 PM
Are we totally sure about that? With Dye leaving, would he not fit in better as the everyday RF and bring in better defender in center, make the defense strong up the middle again? (assuming Alexie can find form back at 2B?)

Alex is a very good defensive center fielder. You aren't going to find anything out there that can play defense better than him.

russ99
09-01-2009, 01:45 PM
Are we totally sure about that? With Dye leaving, would he not fit in better as the everyday RF and bring in better defender in center, make the defense strong up the middle again? (assuming Alexie can find form back at 2B?)

Quentin would be in right, he has the arm for it and that would leave LF for Pods or another production over defense type player.

Also, I'll go with Figgins at 2B/3B with Alexei moving over to 2B when needed and Dunn in the DH spot.

No way Garland comes back here, much less for the low salary needed for the 5 spot.

Nelfox02
09-01-2009, 01:45 PM
Rios is a very good centerfielder. And his bat profiles much better as a centerfielder.

Okay, I can be persuaded on this, but then who plays RF?

To me having pods, Rios, TCQ from left to right is not the answer defensively

My worst fear is we do virtually nothing this off season, watch the Sox struggle again for the first half of next year and then you are in postition where you are trading away one or 2 of our starters, and watching this team really start to collapse yeah, the way this season is ending is bad, but when you have the projected starting 4 we have for next year and some promising young talent, the prognosis for 2010 could be positive, I dont want us to get to the point where this team turns into a quagmire for years....

Tragg
09-01-2009, 01:46 PM
Aw man.
Reed Johnson.
Jack Wilson

Zisk77
09-01-2009, 01:55 PM
While I like Dye DH Maybe he goes and its TCQ at dH to keep him healthy. Then we have to OF holes. I'm kinda warming to signing Hideki Matsui good powerful, LH bat, decent fielder...but still slow is the drawback.

Alexei will be at SS.

Dibbs
09-01-2009, 02:05 PM
So we replace Thome and Dye with Jack Wilson and Reed Johnson and Garland becomes the 5th starter. How does this really improve the team? Isn't the goal to WIN the division and hopefully more?

DumpJerry
09-01-2009, 02:07 PM
This is where I stopped reading.
You made it further than I did.

Craig Grebeck
09-01-2009, 02:13 PM
While I like Dye DH Maybe he goes and its TCQ at dH to keep him healthy. Then we have to OF holes. I'm kinda warming to signing Hideki Matsui good powerful, LH bat, decent fielder...but still slow is the drawback.

Alexei will be at SS.
You don't look for speed at DH.

munchman33
09-01-2009, 02:17 PM
Don't think. It can only hurt the ballclub.

cbotnyse
09-01-2009, 02:19 PM
I appreciate your effort and hope you are dead on to quiet all the smartasses in this thread.

However I will not be thinking about the Sox again until February, a week or so after the Bears win the Super Bowl.

Nellie_Fox
09-01-2009, 02:45 PM
Flowers is back up catcher, give him some time at DH? You don't DH your backup catcher unless you have a backup for the backup. If the starter gets hurt, you lose your DH when he goes behind the plate.

LoveYourSuit
09-01-2009, 02:47 PM
Garland and Pods ...... can we all just turn the page on these two guys.

BadBobbyJenks
09-01-2009, 02:47 PM
You don't DH your backup catcher unless you have a backup for the backup. If the starter gets hurt, you lose your DH when he goes behind the plate.

Twins do it a lot.

Edit: Didnt realize they carried Morales as a 3rd catcher all season

Nellie_Fox
09-01-2009, 02:49 PM
Twins do it a lot.That doesn't make it any less risky. And Flowers is hardly Joe Mauer.

KMcMahon817
09-01-2009, 02:57 PM
I appreciate your effort and hope you are dead on to quiet all the smartasses in this thread.

However I will not be thinking about the Sox again until February, a week or so after the Bears win the Super Bowl.

And thats why you're posting on this forum right now, hah.:rolleyes:

cbotnyse
09-01-2009, 03:16 PM
And thats why you're posting on this forum right now, hah.:rolleyes:starting today.

whitem0nkey
09-01-2009, 03:24 PM
That doesn't make it any less risky. And Flowers is hardly Joe Mauer.

I disagree we should give flowers as many at bats the rest of the season as possible, and if that means DH him then so be it.

Nellie_Fox
09-01-2009, 03:49 PM
I disagree we should give flowers as many at bats the rest of the season as possible, and if that means DH him then so be it.
The post I was responding to wasn't about this season; it was about next season. The Sox will have three catchers for the rest of this season.

captainclutch24
09-01-2009, 03:52 PM
I love all the threads that have figgins listed, as if he has said he is coming here. I can easily see him staying in Anaheim, and Carl Crawford staying in Tampa

hawkjt
09-01-2009, 04:00 PM
Figgins could command as much as 18 million for 3 years.
He is having a great contract year.
Last year he hit .276 and produced 4.4 runs per game per that stat on BP...this year an astronomical 6.5 runs per game.
I smell a contract drive year with 8 other .300 hitters in his lineup with the Angels which has helped him put together almost a career year at age 33.
One more big contract...he is better than Pods but I bet Pods can be signed for a year at 2 million with an option year...buyout 1 million...so you tie up 3 million vs 18.
Figgins leads the league in getting picked off, and in caught stealing,in case anyone wants to hammer Pods for that...figgins 14 caught stealing with 33 steals...Pods 9 caught stealing, with 23 stolen bases.
He is hitting slightly better .310 vs .294...has less rbis and homers.
I would rather take the 15 million difference and get Abreu to DH or right field.

Sockinchisox
09-01-2009, 04:05 PM
Figgins could command as much as 18 million for 3 years.
He is having a great contract year.
Last year he hit .276 and produced 4.4 runs per game per that stat on BP...this year an astronomical 6.5 runs per game.
I smell a contract drive year with 8 other .300 hitters in his lineup with the Angels which has helped him put together almost a career year at age 33.
One more big contract...he is better than Pods but I bet Pods can be signed for a year at 2 million with an option year...buyout 1 million...so you tie up 3 million vs 18.
Figgins leads the league in getting picked off, and in caught stealing,in case anyone wants to hammer Pods for that...figgins 14 caught stealing with 33 steals...Pods 9 caught stealing, with 23 stolen bases.
He is hitting slightly better .310 vs .294...has less rbis and homers.
I would rather take the 15 million difference and get Abreu to DH or right field.

This. Abreu at the 3 hole with Quentin or Konerko hitting clean up would be nice.

Zisk77
09-01-2009, 04:08 PM
You don't look for speed at DH.


Who said I did?

Zisk77
09-01-2009, 04:12 PM
This. Abreu at the 3 hole with Quentin or Konerko hitting clean up would be nice.


I like Abreu too and I wanted him this year. Still, he is poor defensively and getting old. If we sign him does he age rapidly and stop stealing bases? Am I paranoid?

kittle42
09-01-2009, 04:14 PM
I love all the threads that have figgins listed, as if he has said he is coming here. I can easily see him staying in Anaheim, and Carl Crawford staying in Tampa

It's better than the threads that list like 4-5 minor leaguers as fixtures in the lineup.

Lip Man 1
09-01-2009, 05:45 PM
Captain:

He is out of the Angels plans according to a number of folks I spoken with for what that may be worth.

Scioscia's the only one in the organization who wants him back.

We'll see.

Lip

Flight #24
09-01-2009, 05:59 PM
My .02.

Sox have locked up by my count, ~92M for next season, assuming they exercise Dye's option (and I think they'll probably resign him cheaper).

SP: Buehrle (14), Peavy (15), Danks (1), Floyd (2.75)-->32.75
RP: Jenks(~7), Thornton(2.25), Linebrink(5), Carrasco (1)-->15.25
IF: Konerko (12), Getz (.5), Ramirez (1.1), Beckham (.5)-->14.1
OF: Quentin (1), Rios (9.7)-->10.7
C: AJ (6.25)-->6.25
DH: Dye (12)-->12
Bench: Nix (.5), Flowers (.5)-->1

Total salary: $92M, assuming Quentin, Danks get $1M 9doubling this year's salary), and Jenks gets $7M.

Needs: #5SP, OF/leadoff, 2RP, bench.
If you assume they let one of Hudson/Torres take the #5 slot and the other man a slot in the 'pen, then you either get a vet for $4M to fill out the 'pen, you have what - $5-10M to use on the bench and a leadoff guy? That gets you Figgins and Kenny always gets his man.
And of of Figgins (LF)-Rios(CF)-Quentin(RF) is solid, and if you get improved play from Ramirez & Getz you'll be in good shape.

Nelfox02
09-01-2009, 06:08 PM
We may all disagree on exactly how to make this team better, but I think we can all agree the approach taken this past off season was definitely the wrong one. I also think we can all agree this off season will be big, if we cant improve and find ourselves struggling yet again in the first half, attendance will continue to decline and where will be at all star break 2010? shudder to think of what might happen

We have the foundation (solid starting pitching) I just feel our defense needs to improve drastically if we want preserve that quality pitching and win some games. At this point I have a hard time having a ton of faith in Alexie, Getz, and Beckham becoming a solid (let alone great) defensive infield, and the idea of Poda, Rios and (insert Dye, Abreu, etc) in the outfield, while not terrible, is not great either get strong at short and up the middle.....and I think that can be done w/o having to spend a ton of money in the off season

Nelfox02
09-01-2009, 09:45 PM
We have a center fielder. His name is Alex Rios.


why play pods in center over Rios?

Hitmen77
09-01-2009, 10:06 PM
My .02.

Sox have locked up by my count, ~92M for next season, assuming they exercise Dye's option (and I think they'll probably resign him cheaper).

SP: Buehrle (14), Peavy (15), Danks (1), Floyd (2.75)-->32.75
RP: Jenks(~7), Thornton(2.25), Linebrink(5), Carrasco (1)-->15.25
IF: Konerko (12), Getz (.5), Ramirez (1.1), Beckham (.5)-->14.1
OF: Quentin (1), Rios (9.7)-->10.7
C: AJ (6.25)-->6.25
DH: Dye (12)-->12
Bench: Nix (.5), Flowers (.5)-->1

Total salary: $92M, assuming Quentin, Danks get $1M 9doubling this year's salary), and Jenks gets $7M.

Needs: #5SP, OF/leadoff, 2RP, bench.
If you assume they let one of Hudson/Torres take the #5 slot and the other man a slot in the 'pen, then you either get a vet for $4M to fill out the 'pen, you have what - $5-10M to use on the bench and a leadoff guy? That gets you Figgins and Kenny always gets his man.
And of of Figgins (LF)-Rios(CF)-Quentin(RF) is solid, and if you get improved play from Ramirez & Getz you'll be in good shape.

I find it hard to believe that the Sox will pick up Dye's $12 million option...especially after he was on the list of players they were shopping yesterday to salary dump.

If your numbers are correct that would put the total committed salary (minus Dye) at around $80 million. Like you said, some of that could go to signing Dye for cheaper (How much would his market rate be next year?).

Do we even know what the Sox approximate salary ceiling is for next year? This year I believe they're around $95 million. For all I know, they will look to cut payroll some more as tickets sales and season ticket renewals drop after this pathetic season.

I think getting any big name free agent like Carl Crawford (assuming the Rays don't pick up his option) is just a pipe dream. The Sox already spent their surplus on Peavy and Rios. The rest of the holes are going to be filled by bargain signings/reclamation projects.

As far as 5th starter is concerned, my guess now is that the Sox will just go with Garcia/Torres/Hudson to battle it out for the spot in spring training. Extra $$ won't be spent on this hole.

Nelfox02
09-01-2009, 10:32 PM
I find it hard to believe that the Sox will pick up Dye's $12 million option...especially after he was on the list of players they were shopping yesterday to salary dump.

If your numbers are correct that would put the total committed salary (minus Dye) at around $80 million. Like you said, some of that could go to signing Dye for cheaper (How much would his market rate be next year?).

Do we even know what the Sox approximate salary ceiling is for next year? This year I believe they're around $95 million. For all I know, they will look to cut payroll some more as tickets sales and season ticket renewals drop after this pathetic season.

I think getting any big name free agent like Carl Crawford (assuming the Rays don't pick up his option) is just a pipe dream. The Sox already spent their surplus on Peavy and Rios. The rest of the holes are going to be filled by bargain signings/reclamation projects.

As far as 5th starter is concerned, my guess now is that the Sox will just go with Garcia/Torres/Hudson to battle it out for the spot in spring training. Extra $$ won't be spent on this hole.


agree, expect that payroll to drop, and I also agree that there will be no big name free agent moves that is why I advocate going after a guy like Wilson===he wont cost you that much and his defense give you an immediate boost much like last year, you dont have to spend big $$$ to get win the AL Central in 2010, but you will need to address the holes someway

I dont expect to win the world series going after a guy like Reed Johnson or Garland or Wislon, but this team needs to generate attendance, generate interest, win the division in 2010, get some butts in seats, build up some money and then in 2011 you might have the $$ to get the marquee guy to put you over the top we have to start somewhere, right now we are just spinning our wheels and if next year goes poorly in the first half we may be in the brink of a full on rebuild/salary dump that will put us to mediocrity for a few seasons at least.....

russ99
09-01-2009, 10:46 PM
agree, expect that payroll to drop, and I also agree that there will be no big name free agent moves that is why I advocate going after a guy like Wilson===he wont cost you that much and his defense give you an immediate boost much like last year, you dont have to spend big $$$ to get win the AL Central in 2010, but you will need to address the holes someway

I dont expect to win the world series going after a guy like Reed Johnson or Garland or Wislon, but this team needs to generate attendance, generate interest, win the division in 2010, get some butts in seats, build up some money and then in 2011 you might have the $$ to get the marquee guy to put you over the top we have to start somewhere, right now we are just spinning our wheels and if next year goes poorly in the first half we may be in the brink of a full on rebuild/salary dump that will put us to mediocrity for a few seasons at least.....

I doubt the Sox get Rios and Peavy and then go cheap on us for the second straight offseason. If they wants butts in the seats and the advertisers to re-up, they need to go for it.

If Kenny can get Figgins for $18/3 I have zero doubt he'd pull the trigger. He's one of those guys Kenny's been after for years and he always gets his guy sooner or later.

And I doubt he stops there. I'd be willing to bet the 4 remaining players on Kenny's sell list yesterday aren't with the team on opening day 2010, with Paul an outside long shot due to his NTC being a factor.

If the Sox really want to go for it next season, a payroll of $100M is not outside the realm of possibility.

That would be a substantial amount of available payroll to fill holes with - which are 5th starter, setup relief, an OF spot and a DH, and maybe an infield spot. Carlos is the only arb eligible due a big raise, and that could be tempered due to his injury and poor season.

Nelfox02
09-01-2009, 10:54 PM
I doubt the Sox get Rios and Peavy and then go cheap on us for the second straight offseason. If they wants butts in the seats and the advertisers to re-up, they need to go for it.

If Kenny can get Figgins for $18/3 I have zero doubt he'd pull the trigger. He's one of those guys Kenny's been after for years and he always gets his guy sooner or later.

And I doubt he stops there. I'd be willing to bet the 4 remaining players on Kenny's sell list yesterday aren't with the team on opening day 2010, with Paul an outside long shot due to his NTC being a factor.

If the Sox really want to go for it next season, a payroll of $100M is not outside the realm of possibility.

That would be a substantial amount of available payroll to fill holes with - which are 5th starter, setup relief, an OF spot and a DH, and maybe an infield spot. Carlos is the only arb eligible due a big raise, and that could be tempered due to his injury and poor season.


I sure hope you are right.......

kitekrazy
09-02-2009, 12:13 AM
You don't look for speed at DH.

Yep a DH always looks for steroids.

rpac44
09-02-2009, 12:38 AM
DH situation---…..maybe pick up a declining guy like Branyan??

serious?

Jerome
09-02-2009, 12:43 AM
Is Getz good enough to pencil in for the full-time 2B next year? Otherwise, would the plan be to put Alexei back at 2B and move Bacon/Beckham to SS and try and find another 3B?

tm1119
09-02-2009, 12:44 AM
Defense is great, but if you only score 2 or 3 runs a game it wont matter. There is no way we could afford to have Reed Johnson, Pods, Jack Wilson, and AJ in the same lineup. Our offense would be worse than it was this year.
While our D hasnt been good this year, I really dont think it was our downfall at all. As a team we are hitting .258 and 16th in the MLB in runs scored. So I think its pretty clear that we cant afford to further weaken the offense.

thomas35forever
09-02-2009, 12:44 AM
If Jack Wilson and Reed Johnson are as good as we can get this offseason, then I can only hope for a second or third-place finish next season.

Konerko05
09-02-2009, 01:06 AM
Opening day line up, 2010 25 man

Pods DH
Beckham 3B
Quentin LF
Konerko 1B
AJ C
Rios RF
Alexie 2B
Wilson SS
Reed CF


Worst offense ever.

Nelfox02
09-02-2009, 01:22 PM
Worst offense ever.


Okay, I agree the team I propose for next season wont be an offensive force, but what would be your alternative? what do you say when Kenny and Jerry call out the fans for not showing up in September, cite lack of season ticket renewals, ect, cry cash poor, and give you this line up

Pods LF
Beckham 3B
Quentin RF
AJ C
Rios CF
Konerko DH
Fields 1B
TCM SS
Gets 2B

Will this team score a lot of runs? I dont see it....maybe the sox will muster the money to find and sign Willy Mo Pena to take the DH slot? Those seem to be the type of players we like to target to fill holes..... At least the other line up will have some defensive presence

hey, I would love to be in the market for a Matt Holliday type RBI machine in this off season, but we all know there is NO WAY Kenny GM is given that kind of money to play with So, given scant amount of cash we will have my position is spend it where you get the most bang for your buck, bring in some guys that (altho may be light hitters) upgrade your defense then you hope Quentin and Rios rebound, and Paulie can give us one more decent offensive season

Flight #24
09-02-2009, 02:53 PM
Random alternate plan: Resign Pods (oughta be cheap), buy 1 bullpen arm, use the rest of the available $$ to poach Rudy Jaramillo from Texas as the hitting coach. Offer him $$$, the chance to work with Ozzie, be in a big city, and work for an org that always tries to win.

If he can't turn the O around given the talent on the field, no one can. Coop+Rudy would be a killer pair of coaches. (Of course I say that not knowing his contract status.) Yes, Rudy benefits from the Texas park, but the Cell is a hitters park too.......

tm1119
09-02-2009, 03:33 PM
Okay, I agree the team I propose for next season wont be an offensive force, but what would be your alternative? what do you say when Kenny and Jerry call out the fans for not showing up in September, cite lack of season ticket renewals, ect, cry cash poor, and give you this line up

Pods LF
Beckham 3B
Quentin RF
AJ C
Rios CF
Konerko DH
Fields 1B
TCM SS
Gets 2B

Will this team score a lot of runs? I dont see it....maybe the sox will muster the money to find and sign Willy Mo Pena to take the DH slot? Those seem to be the type of players we like to target to fill holes..... At least the other line up will have some defensive presence

hey, I would love to be in the market for a Matt Holliday type RBI machine in this off season, but we all know there is NO WAY Kenny GM is given that kind of money to play with So, given scant amount of cash we will have my position is spend it where you get the most bang for your buck, bring in some guys that (altho may be light hitters) upgrade your defense then you hope Quentin and Rios rebound, and Paulie can give us one more decent offensive season

Leave the infield how it is. They are young and talented. Let them grow together and see how it works. THey have about a total of 2 years of MLB experience between the 3(obviously not including PK) of them.
Lets let Dye walk, resign Pods, and replace Dye him with a little more speed in either Abreu or Figgins. I would also sign a security OF in case of injury or if Pods cant duplicate his performance from this year. Whatever money we have left is spent on a bullpen arm or 2.
My lineup:
LF- Pods
RF- Abreu
3B- Beckham
DH- Quentin
1B- Konerko
C- AJ
SS- Alexei
CF- Rios
2B- Getz

Hitmen77
09-02-2009, 03:50 PM
agree, expect that payroll to drop, and I also agree that there will be no big name free agent moves that is why I advocate going after a guy like Wilson===he wont cost you that much and his defense give you an immediate boost much like last year, you dont have to spend big $$$ to get win the AL Central in 2010, but you will need to address the holes someway

I dont expect to win the world series going after a guy like Reed Johnson or Garland or Wislon, but this team needs to generate attendance, generate interest, win the division in 2010, get some butts in seats, build up some money and then in 2011 you might have the $$ to get the marquee guy to put you over the top we have to start somewhere, right now we are just spinning our wheels and if next year goes poorly in the first half we may be in the brink of a full on rebuild/salary dump that will put us to mediocrity for a few seasons at least.....

Here's what I expect for next year's roster. This is NOT my "dream" roster, it's what I expect to happen:

SP: Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, Floyd, Garcia/Hudson/Torres (no outside acquisition)
RP: Jenks, Thornton, Linebrink, Carrasco, Pena, Williams, ??
IF: Konerko, Getz, Ramirez, Beckham
OF: Quentin, Rios, Pods or Figgins
C: AJ
DH: Dye (if signed to cheap new contract, otherwise other corner OF or DH available for about $6 million)
Bench: Nix, new backup C, ??, ??

Comments:
- The Sox will not pick up Dye's $12 million option
- Flowers will not be on this team to just be a bench player.
- Hudson and/or Torres may go to the bullpen if they don't win the 5th starter spot.
- I'm not counting on the Sox to add much more payroll after Peavy and Rios. Any money from salaries will come from Dye's current contract coming off the books.
-Kenny Williams seems to make at least one big "out of the blue" trade each offseason. I just can't begin to guess what that will be.
- I expect Josh Fields to be with another organization by opening day 2010.

RCWHITESOX
09-02-2009, 04:39 PM
Okay, I agree the team I propose for next season wont be an offensive force, but what would be your alternative? what do you say when Kenny and Jerry call out the fans for not showing up in September, cite lack of season ticket renewals, ect, cry cash poor, and give you this line up

Pods LF
Beckham 3B
Quentin RF
AJ C
Rios CF
Konerko DH
Fields 1B
TCM SS
Gets 2B

Will this team score a lot of runs? I dont see it....maybe the sox will muster the money to find and sign Willy Mo Pena to take the DH slot? Those seem to be the type of players we like to target to fill holes..... At least the other line up will have some defensive presence

hey, I would love to be in the market for a Matt Holliday type RBI machine in this off season, but we all know there is NO WAY Kenny GM is given that kind of money to play with So, given scant amount of cash we will have my position is spend it where you get the most bang for your buck, bring in some guys that (altho may be light hitters) upgrade your defense then you hope Quentin and Rios rebound, and Paulie can give us one more decent offensive season

Figgins 2B
Beckham 3B
Dye RF
Quentin LF
Konerko DH
AJ C
Rios CF
Ramirez SS
Kotchman 1B

Starters
Buehrle
Peavy
Danks
Floyd
Garcia

Bullpen
Thornton
Linebrink
Pena
Carrasco
Jenks Closer


Speed, better defense. Just a little tweak and were back in 2010.

Craig Grebeck
09-02-2009, 04:55 PM
Figgins 2B
Beckham 3B
Dye RF
Quentin LF
Konerko DH
AJ C
Rios CF
Ramirez SS
Kotchman 1B

Starters
Buehrle
Peavy
Danks
Floyd
Garcia

Bullpen
Thornton
Linebrink
Pena
Carrasco
Jenks Closer


Speed, better defense. Just a little tweak and were back in 2010.
I'm shocked we found a way to work in Kotchman and Figgins again! Man, I thought those trade proposals stopped when people realized Kotchman kinda sucked, and he was traded by the Angels.

RCWHITESOX
09-02-2009, 05:24 PM
I'm shocked we found a way to work in Kotchman and Figgins again! Man, I thought those trade proposals stopped when people realized Kotchman kinda sucked, and he was traded by the Angels.

I have to disagree. Kotchman is a excellent defensive IB and a linedrive hitter who sprays the ball to all fields; just what the Sox need. And best of all they could probably get him cheap.

Craig Grebeck
09-02-2009, 05:38 PM
I have to disagree. Kotchman is a excellent defensive IB and a linedrive hitter who sprays the ball to all fields; just what the Sox need. And best of all they could probably get him cheap.
Because...he kinda sucks.

Edit: also, Jim Thome hits a higher percentage of line drives than Casey Kotchman.

PalehosePlanet
09-02-2009, 05:49 PM
I have to disagree. Kotchman is a excellent defensive IB and a linedrive hitter who sprays the ball to all fields; just what the Sox need. And best of all they could probably get him cheap.

If that's the route your taking then why not just keep Kotsay? He is exactly what you describe above plus he can play the OF and is a better base runner than Kotchman. He would also be cheaper.

Craig Grebeck
09-02-2009, 05:52 PM
If that's the route your taking then why not just keep Kotsay? He is exactly what you describe above plus he can play the OF and is a better base runner than Kotchman. He would also be cheaper.
He also sucks worse than Kotchman.

PalehosePlanet
09-02-2009, 06:15 PM
He also sucks worse than Kotchman.

I don't think so. I think Kotchman is simply a failed prospect; a poor man's Mark Grace. He has Journeyman written all over him.

Kotsay on the other hand has been injury prone but overall is a much better athelete. If healthy for a full year, even at his age, he is still a more versatile version of Kotchman.

Obviously, though, neither player is worth much.

Craig Grebeck
09-02-2009, 06:17 PM
I don't think so. I think Kotchman is simply a failed prospect; a poor man's Mark Grace. He has Journeyman written all over him.

Kotsay on the other hand has been injury prone but overall is a much better athelete. If healthy for a full year, even at his age, he is still a more versatile version of Kotchman.

Obviously, though, neither player is worth much.
No. Kotsay's a terrible offensive player. He's been as bad with us as he's been elsewhere the past few years. He's not in his twenties, he's not going to return to his pretty blah form.

wassagstdu
09-02-2009, 06:29 PM
2 AJ -- no brainer
3 Konerko -- for his defense as much as his offense
4 Getz -- or Nix if Getz stumbles
5 Whoever they can get for Alexei -- I'd rather have Rios in CF and Getz at 2b and Beckham at short. Alexei should not be the ss. Maybe 2b.
6 Beckham -- assuming he is as good a ss as he has become as a 3b
7 Pods -- has earned it
8 Rios -- will straighten out his hitting issues
9 TCQ -- has the tools for rf. Comeback year.

But the season will be decided in the bullpen.

Lillian
09-02-2009, 08:07 PM
I suspect that the core established positions for next year will be, at least in large part, determined by the need to shore up the defense. Therefore, unless some surprise acquisitions are made, the following players will likely occupy these positions:
CF Rios
SS Alexei
3B Beckham
2B Getz or Nix
1B Konerko
Corner Outfield Quentin
C A.J.

That leaves openings at two spots, DH and corner outfield, for Free Agent signings.
The most likely and realistic choices are any combination of two of the following four players: Pods, Dye, Abreu, Figgins
Here are a couple of line up possibilities, in order of my personal preference:
LF Figgins
2B Nix
3B Beckham
RF Quentin
DH Abreu
1B Konerko
C A. J.
CF Rios
SS Alexei

LF Abreu
2B Getz
3B Beckham
RF Quentin
C A. J.
1B Konerko
DH Dye
CF Rios
SS Alexei



LF Pods
2B Getz
3B Beckham
RF Quentin
DH Abreu
1B Konerko
C A. J.
CF Rios
SS Alexei

My thinking here is that Abreu is the best run producing option for lead off. While he wouldn’t steal as many bases as Figgins, or even Pods, he is the most likely candidate to put up a really high OBP, which should be the highest priority for a leadoff hitter.
If Figgins is acquired, he is the best pure base stealing threat, and would not require a particularly good bunter and hitter with the ability to hit behind the runner. Therefore I would prefer Nix at 2B to bat behind Figgins, because I think he provides the best defense, especially turning the doubl play. If Pods leads off, or even to a greater degree Abreu, then Getz is the better #2 hitter.
In any case, I like the speed all through the lineup, especially at #8 and 9.

Craig Grebeck
09-02-2009, 08:31 PM
I suspect that the core established positions for next year will be, at least in large part, determined by the need to shore up the defense. Therefore, unless some surprise acquisitions are made, the following players will likely occupy these positions:
CF Rios
SS Alexei
3B Beckham
2B Getz or Nix
1B Konerko
Corner Outfield Quentin
C A.J.

That leaves openings at two spots, DH and corner outfield, for Free Agent signings.
The most likely and realistic choices are any combination of two of the following four players: Pods, Dye, Abreu, Figgins
Here are a couple of line up possibilities, in order of my personal preference:
LF Figgins
2B Nix
3B Beckham
RF Quentin
DH Abreu
1B Konerko
C A. J.
CF Rios
SS Alexei

LF Abreu
2B Getz
3B Beckham
RF Quentin
C A. J.
1B Konerko
DH Dye
CF Rios
SS Alexei



LF Pods
2B Getz
3B Beckham
RF Quentin
DH Abreu
1B Konerko
C A. J.
CF Rios
SS Alexei

My thinking here is that Abreu is the best run producing option for lead off. While he wouldn’t steal as many bases as Figgins, or even Pods, he is the most likely candidate to put up a really high OBP, which should be the highest priority for a leadoff hitter.
If Figgins is acquired, he is the best pure base stealing threat, and would not require a particularly good bunter and hitter with the ability to hit behind the runner. Therefore I would prefer Nix at 2B to bat behind Figgins, because I think he provides the best defense, especially turning the doubl play. If Pods leads off, or even to a greater degree Abreu, then Getz is the better #2 hitter.
In any case, I like the speed all through the lineup, especially at #8 and 9.
Shutter. Good to see Alexei batting ninth and Nix second. Plenty of logic to that.

Lillian
09-02-2009, 08:49 PM
Shutter. Good to see Alexei batting ninth and Nix second. Plenty of logic to that.

My logic in batting Nix behind Figgins is that he sees a lot of pitches in an at bat, which would give Figgins ample opportunity to run.

Alexei batting 9th gives you another potential stolen base threat batting in front of Figgins. I would hope Alexei could improve on his base stealing, given his speed. If he can't run more, and with success, then he is wasting his speed.

tm1119
09-02-2009, 08:53 PM
Shutter. Good to see Alexei batting ninth and Nix second. Plenty of logic to that.

Yeah Alexei seems to get a lot of hate around here and its pretty unwarranted. Take away his terrible start to this season and hes had a pretty damn good season. And I know almost no one here wants to hear about defensive stats, but Alexei has actually been 1.7 runs better than the league average SS if you look at his UZR.

Frater Perdurabo
09-02-2009, 08:59 PM
You don't look for speed at DH.

Not in any case? Not even a hypothetical case where you have good hitting sloths throughout the infield and outfield?

Hitmen77
09-02-2009, 09:56 PM
I have to disagree. Kotchman is a excellent defensive IB and a linedrive hitter who sprays the ball to all fields; just what the Sox need. And best of all they could probably get him cheap.

Kotchman at 1B is a big downgrade from Konerko.

Tragg
09-02-2009, 10:44 PM
The Kochmans, the Overbays - you've got to compensate elsewhere if you have power like that at first. Just like if you have Podesednik in a corner outfield position, you've got to compensate elsewhere.

I wouldn't look for a leadoff hitter per se...if we find one at a position we need, great. But Beckham could lead off and do it very well.

We for sure need a right fielder. I'd let Pods go - Quentin's our LF.

And we need to do something with the infield. Is Alexei a shortstop or not? If not, can he play OF? Should we move Beckham to the middle infield. It might be we need a 3B.

And then we need to find a DH.
And some bullpen help - we should be able to do better than we have internally with minor leaguers, prepping for the rotation.

fram40
09-02-2009, 11:04 PM
I'd really like to give Alexei another year at shortstop. I think Ozzie does as well. I believe he has gotten better and will continue to get better.

Beckham appears to be the third baseman for sometime. He has greatly improved in a three months.

I would like to see Pods back. This team looks different with him in the lineup - for three years now. I know all the reasons against the idea - but I would try Pods at DH next year.

russ99
09-03-2009, 02:01 PM
Is Getz good enough to pencil in for the full-time 2B next year? Otherwise, would the plan be to put Alexei back at 2B and move Bacon/Beckham to SS and try and find another 3B?

Getz is an option. People forget he's a rookie. In that context, he's had a good year.

But I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up platooning or takes a supersub role if Kenny can add an impact player- either a leadoff guy at 2B or a power bat with a good glove at 3B.

Lip Man 1
09-04-2009, 11:20 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1752442,CST-SPT-joe04.article

Lip

hawkjt
09-04-2009, 11:57 AM
I'd really like to give Alexei another year at shortstop. I think Ozzie does as well. I believe he has gotten better and will continue to get better.

Beckham appears to be the third baseman for sometime. He has greatly improved in a three months.

I would like to see Pods back. This team looks different with him in the lineup - for three years now. I know all the reasons against the idea - but I would try Pods at DH next year.


Pods leads the team in on base average and is second in batting average at .298...why would we want to keep him around?
I would like to see Figgins or Abreu added..and Pods retained. JD? I will wait and see if he shows any signs of bouncing back this last month.

eriqjaffe
09-04-2009, 12:05 PM
Pods leads the team in on base averageYou know what's kinda sad about that? Pods, at .350, has the second-lowest OBP in the AL amongst team leaders (and he's 38th overall in the AL, so that means that many teams have more than one player with higher OBPs than our team leader's). Only Billy Butler is behind him - and that's only by .001.

I like Pods, but, realistically, he's just a somewhat tall midget.

dickallen15
09-04-2009, 12:48 PM
Pods leads the team in on base average and is second in batting average at .298...why would we want to keep him around?
I would like to see Figgins or Abreu added..and Pods retained. JD? I will wait and see if he shows any signs of bouncing back this last month.

I doubt many feel Pods could repeat his offensive perfomance again in 2010. He doesn't have much power. His baserunning has become horrific and he can't play defense. He played himself into another contract, but hopefully not with the White Sox IMO.

hawkjt
09-04-2009, 01:06 PM
I doubt many feel Pods could repeat his offensive perfomance again in 2010. He doesn't have much power. His baserunning has become horrific and he can't play defense. He played himself into another contract, but hopefully not with the White Sox IMO.


So the obvious solution to the Sox problems with getting on base is to lop off our top onbase guy because his .351 is only 38th in the AL?
That will certainly improve our overall onbase average,right?

Why does anyone think that Figgins can repeat his strong year?...last two years he only played 115 games, and the last year he played a whole season in 06 he hit .276...Figgins has less power than Pods, will cost 15+ million vs maybe 3 million, allowing the sox to pick up an Abreu and Pods, and btw, Figgins has been picked off more times than pods, and leads the league in caught stealing at 16....he has better on base, but he is fragile and unlikely to have another healthy year.

Lip Man 1
09-04-2009, 02:39 PM
Well Hawk let's see....now we have to assume his contract demands are reasonable and that the off season market will tilt towards the buyer again. If that is acceptable, here we go.

* He's younger than Pods. It's only a year or two but when you hit your 30's, that's a lot. He can stabilize the leadoff spot in theory, for a longer period of time.
* Over his entire career he's shown himself to be more durable than Pods. (Granted no player is guaranteed 100% to stay healthy. I'm just saying Pods appears to have had more injury issues than Figgins.)
* He can play MULTIPLE positions and play them well. (He's playing Gold Glove caliber defense this season at 3rd). Ozzie LOVES flexibility and in theory can work him into the lineup everyday at different spots (3b, 2b, CF) to rotate guys and have the best 'match-ups'
* He is a better defensive outfielder that Podsednik.
* He's just as fast as Scotty.
* He is a decent bunter / fundamentals player.

Not trying to run down Podsednik. You asked what the advantages were. I think they are numerous, again under the conditions that I listed at the top of the post.

I also think there is an intangible working here, only Kenny knows for sure. Both Dye and he seem to have gone into a 'funk' mentally since Rios was acquired, not a full blown pout but something doesn't seem right. If that's true or if Kenny feels the same way, that's a bad characteristic. That's the type of thing that would set Kenny off (i.e. individual vs. team) and that could have a major influence on what happens.

hawkjt
09-04-2009, 05:23 PM
I am just weighing the opportunity cost of figgins vs Pods.
Say we can sign Abreu and Pods vs Figgins and Josh Fields ...with Pods and Abreu you can play Pods in left and leadoff, put Rios in center, and Abreu/Quientin in right/dh...with Kotsay as a backup at first and outfield spots.
Contrast that with Figgins in left and leading off, Rios center, Quentin/Kotsay in right/dh with Fields as backup at first and dh.

This is all assuming Dye is gone.
I just think we have more options and protection by keeping pods, enabling the sox to sign another good hitter/outfielder/dh to replace Thome and Dye. The odds of Pods staying healthy vs Figgins are about equal and Pods is not near as bad in left field as center. Figgins is better defensively but he will command at least 3 years, and Pods will be a year and an option probably, opening up outfield slots for Danks and Mitchell eventually.

Sounds like Figgins is the object of kennys eye so they will probably go after him, like they did Torii Hunter ...usually when a player is talked about, kenny does not end up getting him. Price of poker will be too high for figgins. Economy will be improving by next year and market will be better for players,imo. At the least,I hope kenny keeps the Pods possibility as a fallback, cus I am not convinced figgins will be a bargain.
I also have to wonder if batting in a lineup with 9 guys hitting over .300 does not help everybody hit better...pitcher has to be worn out eventually.

Lip Man 1
09-04-2009, 05:48 PM
I think Fields is out of the organization this off season in my opinion.

I like Abreu but isn't he 38? If so you are looking at him solely as a DH and I don't think that fits with what the Sox are trying to do (flexibility, younger, more athletic) we'll see.

Lip

The Immigrant
09-04-2009, 05:54 PM
I like Abreu but isn't he 38? Lip

He will be 36 when next season starts, but his numbers have improved each of the last three seasons. Having said that, I would not commit to him for more than 2 years.

Hitmen77
09-04-2009, 09:59 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1752442,CST-SPT-joe04.article

Lip

If I'm reading this right, Cowley makes it sound the Sox only have one spot in the lineup to fill (and suggests Plan A would be Figgins for that spot). He says that Pods for the OF and bringing back Dye for DH would be "plan B" if KW doesn't land Figgins.

....but even if they do land Figgins, we're still going to need a DH. What are the DH options? Keep Dye (with a new contract)? Bring back Thome? I know some people here have been saying Bobby Abreu...but that's assuming the Angels don't re-sign him.