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TomBradley72
08-31-2009, 12:00 PM
KW has now been the White Sox GM for nearly 9 full seasons. We'll all be eternally grateful for 2005, but for the last three full seasons, the White Sox are now 225-232, with a .492 winning percentage. Personally, I'm still firmly in KW corner, and like the outlook for the team in 2010 and beyond with the moves he's made this year.

Looking specifically at this three year window...what is your assessment of the job he as done as GM?

soxfanreggie
08-31-2009, 12:05 PM
KW has now been the White Sox GM for nearly 9 full seasons. We'll all be eternally grateful for 2005, but for the last three full seasons, the White Sox are now 225-232, with a .492 winning percentage. Personally, I'm still firmly in KW corner, and like the outlook for the team in 2010 and beyond with the moves he's made this year.

Looking specifically at this three year window...what is your assessment of the job he as done as GM?

For performance on the field...a C+, because it does include a division title. Because we're under .500 for the span and have had a high payroll, I can't give him any higher. If we continue to slide the rest of this season, it could go down to a C.

For moves made to prepare for the future year...a bit higher, a B or B+. It could go up depending on the free agent signings we make this offseason. We took on a lot of payroll in Rios, and I feel he needs to prove he was worth something close to that on the field. Peavy-a great acquisition. We gave up some young talent, but we got one of the best pitchers in the game. I have been more impressed with the draft results of '08 and '09 so that is in his favor too.

Boondock Saint
08-31-2009, 12:10 PM
I give him a B.

kevingrt
08-31-2009, 12:26 PM
If you just look at that three year window of on field performance with no look to the future I give him a C+/B- because of mediocrity but a 2008 AL Central Division Championship.

Now if we were able to look to the future with the draft picks during the three years and the overhaul of a dismantled minor league system I think he immediately moves into the B+/A- territory. The minor league system as a whole was in complete flux and was in the crapper. He got rid of the bad seeds and it seems to be taking a huge step in the right direction with the draft process and signing Cuban prospects.

Plus you add in the acquisitions of Rios and Peavy as long term replacements at their respective positions and the future only looks brighter.

All in all I approve of the job he has been doing. And he should not be even considered for the pink slip anytime soon.

voodoochile
08-31-2009, 12:33 PM
Given who the owner is I give him an A.

I don't really blame him for the shortcomings of this year's team because he was forced to cut payroll.

I think 2007 a lot went wrong, some of it foreseeable, some of it not. I think he did a good job of fixing those problems for 2008 and may have had a team as little as TCQ's fluke injury from playing for a pennant at the least.

I still give him an A. Not every move is going to be perfect or pan out, but he keeps trying and I can't fault him for that. Hope he's the GM until JR sells the team and beyond.

khan
08-31-2009, 12:39 PM
Given who the owner is I give him an A.
No offense, but I'm a bit confused about this comment.

While JR hasn't exacly been spending money like a drunk sailor on shore leave or a member of the Steinbrenner family, he also hasn't been as cheap as the clowns who own ****tsburg. Or the clowns who own KC. Or the cheapskates who own Cincinnati. Or Oakland.

I think too much has been made of JR's history of thrift, when set in comparison to his ways in more recent years. The payroll has been near the top of MLB in recent years. He took on an expensive and long-term deal in Jake Peavy, despite his previous aversion to doing so with other starting pitchers.

While I think that you might be over-adjusting KW's "grade" in 2007-2009, I'd just like to see you expand on your view here.

voodoochile
08-31-2009, 12:41 PM
No offesne, but I'm a bit confused about this comment.

While JR hasn't exacly been spending money like a drunk sailor on shore leave or a member of the Steinbrenner family, he also hasn't been as cheap as the clowns who own ****tsburg. Or the clowns who own KC. Or the cheapskates who own Cincinnati. Or Oakland.

I think too much has been made of JR's history of thrift, when set in comparison to his ways in more recent years. The payroll has been near the top of MLB in recent years. He took on an expensive and long-term deal in Jake Peavy, despite his previous aversion to doing so with other starting pitchers.

While I think that you might be over-adjusting KW's "grade" in 2007-2009, I'd just like to see you expand on your view here.

Just because of this season. I probably misspoke. Given the constraints put on by the owner this season due to the economy.

I am not a JR hater in any sense of the word. I used to have problems, but he's done a good job of opening the purse.

My point was that the only season I might have problems with is this one, but I feel KW had his hands tied by JR this off season and was forced to take the path he did.

Hope that helps explain it better.

Zisk77
08-31-2009, 12:47 PM
What I like about kenny is even when his plan blows up in his face at least you can understand why he chose the path he did and had the balls to try it. Some Gm's make you wonder what the hell they are trying to do.

Noneck
08-31-2009, 12:47 PM
Its really tough to grade someone not knowing his constraints.

markopat
08-31-2009, 12:49 PM
KW has now been the White Sox GM for nearly 9 full seasons. We'll all be eternally grateful for 2005, but for the last three full seasons, the White Sox are now 225-232, with a .492 winning percentage. Personally, I'm still firmly in KW corner, and like the outlook for the team in 2010 and beyond with the moves he's made this year.

Looking specifically at this three year window...what is your assessment of the job he as done as GM?

I have the Sox at 251-236 for 2006-2008. Add this year: 315-303. With the playoffs last year 316-306. What do your win/loss numbers represent? I like KW...He makes moves to try to improve the team. I do agree that several of the moves made are for next year. It will be interesting to see how the roster plays out for next season. I believe in KW!

veeter
08-31-2009, 01:01 PM
His two huge moves, Peavy and Rios, will unfold over time. So it's an incomplete. But I always give him an A for effort.

khan
08-31-2009, 01:05 PM
Just because of this season. I probably misspoke. Given the constraints put on by the owner this season due to the economy.

I am not a JR hater in any sense of the word. I used to have problems, but he's done a good job of opening the purse.

My point was that the only season I might have problems with is this one, but I feel KW had his hands tied by JR this off season and was forced to take the path he did.

Hope that helps explain it better.

Fair enough. I actually see how the scrubs have budget-****ed themselves, and am thankful at JR's insistence on a sensible budget.

In my view, this insistence has had the [perhaps] secondary benefit of enabling KW to get 2 All Star-calibre players at a discount price. This flexibility has paid dividends in this season, and will continue to do so, for as long as MLB has no salary structure. So, if anything, KW's performance may have been aided in recent years, not hindered by JR's business savvy, IMO.

At the same time, the only expensive player from '08 I'd really like to have back would be [oddly enough] Javy. This, if for no other reason than he'd likely be better than the craptacular 5th starter we've seen all year long. [If Cabrera were still here, I doubt that Beckham would've been brought up; Swisher was a mistake from the beginning; Crede's back and agent made him an impossibility.]

Hitmen77
08-31-2009, 01:12 PM
I'd give him a B.

The team record itself over this 3 year span is not very impressive: 2 bad seasons and 1 good season. The 2007 team was awful and 2009 is quickly becoming another stinker. 2008 brought us a division title, but we were obviously outclassed in the ALDS by the Tampa Bay Rays.

You certainly can't ignore KW's 3 stunningly successful trades over this time in which we acquired Floyd, Danks, and Quentin. (yes, I know the Danks and Floyd trades were in Dec. 2006, but they were acquisitions for the 07 season). Those 3 trades were downright steals and are the highlight of his last 3 years. He also signed Alexei Ramirez. He managed to land a recent Cy Young winner in exchange for Clayton Richard and prospects. The Rios acquisition? Well, he pretty much landed in KW's lap and it's still a gamble. We'll have a better idea next year if Rios will be a solid addition or a bust who is trending downward and still owed $60 million. We drafted Beckham during this time, but was that thanks to skill on the part of White Sox management or just a benefit of being so bad in 2007?

On the down side, KW got hosed in trading 3 top prospects to Oakland for Nick "You Guys Will Love My Sthick" Swisher. Not that any of the guys on the A's are all-stars, but I'd take Sweeney and Gio over Betemit, Marquez, and Nunez. The 3 year extension for MacDougal was a bad idea. Our bullpen was so bad in 2007 and our farm system was so lacking for arms that he had to overpay with a 4 yr deal for Linebrink - who was good for us for all of 1/2 season and hasn't been the same since his injury.

Williams does have more money to spend than many teams, but not as much as the top AL teams. He's been limited somewhat over the last few years by Jose's $10 million/yr salary. Our 3-4-5 trio also eats up a ton of payroll (about $36 million) and they've failed to provide the consistent, dangerous offense they're getting paid for.

My biggest complaint about 2009 is that he went into the season counting on Jose, Richard, Colon, and/or Marquez to fill TWO of our starting pitcher spots. We also were counting on Josh Fields and Dewayne Wise as opening day starters too. :o:

But, on the whole, despite this disappointing season, I give credit to KW for putting the Sox in a good position to compete in 2010. We can look forward to 4 starting pitchers who all have all-star potential. The Sox are also finally done with expensive contracts to Contreras, Thome, and Dye. Also, it seems like we're starting to see promising prospects rise up through our system once again.

Rohan
08-31-2009, 01:17 PM
Why are we starting at 2007?

Doesn't it make more sense to start at the beginning of his tenure?

LoveYourSuit
08-31-2009, 01:17 PM
Pre 2007: C- (although he picked up pieces such as Floyd and Danks, there were some major clunkers in there with Aardsma, Bukvich, Massett)

2007 was almost like a season we were giving away. A team that had just won 90 games the year before and nothing was added to make it compete one notch better the following season.


Pre 2008: B- Kenny did just enough to build a mediocre team that crawled its way to a division crown.


Pre 2009: D The jury is still out depending on what becomes of Flower. But most of the guys counted on to fill holes became huge dissapointments out of the gate (Fields, BA, Wise, Betemit, Getz, Nix, Lilebridge)

Mid 2009: B+ The additions of Peavy, Rios, & Pena are very high ceiling moves IMO which will pay off for the long run. Kenny got us better for the future here and honestly it helps cure our wounds a bit of what will be a disastrous ending to our season.


So he gets a C in my book.

kittle42
08-31-2009, 01:24 PM
Pre 2007: C- (although he picked up pieces such as Floyd and Danks, there were some major clunkers in there with Aardsma, Bukvich, Massett)

2007 was almost like a season we were giving away. A team that had just won 90 games the year before and nothing was added to make it compete one notch better the following season.


Pre 2008: B- Kenny did just enough to build a mediocre team that crawled its way to a division crown.


Pre 2009: D The jury is still out depending on what becomes of Flower. But most of the guys counted on to fill holes became huge dissapointments out of the gate (Fields, BA, Wise, Betemit, Getz, Nix, Lilebridge)

Mid 2009: B+ The additions of Peavy, Rios, & Pena are very high ceiling moves IMO which will pay off for the long run. Kenny got us better for the future here and honestly it helps cure our wounds a bit of what will be a disastrous ending to our season.


So he gets a C in my book.

I feel about the same, and for the same reasons. C or C+.

LoveYourSuit
08-31-2009, 01:47 PM
I feel about the same, and for the same reasons. C or C+.

Yeah, a C grade is very fair right now but with a ton of potential depending on how things go next season.

Arrow is pointing up on Kenny Williams to me.

RedHeadPaleHoser
08-31-2009, 01:50 PM
Why are we starting at 2007?

Doesn't it make more sense to start at the beginning of his tenure?

That's what I was going to say.

When he does leave/get fired from the Sox he'll be judged on his entire performance - all the bad trades as well as the successes. So you have to go to day one and start from there.

ike from nj
08-31-2009, 02:38 PM
Given who the owner is I give him an A.

I don't really blame him for the shortcomings of this year's team because he was forced to cut payroll.

I think 2007 a lot went wrong, some of it foreseeable, some of it not. I think he did a good job of fixing those problems for 2008 and may have had a team as little as TCQ's fluke injury from playing for a pennant at the least.

I still give him an A. Not every move is going to be perfect or pan out, but he keeps trying and I can't fault him for that. Hope he's the GM until JR sells the team and beyond.
why is the owner so bad. top ten payroll despite not always top ten revenue. the overall state of the baseball part of the sox organization has definitely improved during ken william's tenure. better scouting/drafring, stronger player development and 2005.

PaleHoser
08-31-2009, 03:05 PM
A for effort, B for results. I'd grade results higher if he'd just quit making deals for guys who can't pitch for the Royals (see MacDougal, Sisco, Ramirez).

Zisk77
08-31-2009, 03:05 PM
Why are we starting at 2007?

Doesn't it make more sense to start at the beginning of his tenure?


Easier to ***** & moan if you don't mention 05.

TomBradley72
08-31-2009, 03:17 PM
That's what I was going to say.

When he does leave/get fired from the Sox he'll be judged on his entire performance - all the bad trades as well as the successes. So you have to go to day one and start from there.

Then you can start a thread asking about grading him overall, but I think a three year window is plenty of time to work with and more relevent to the current state of the team vs. moves he made in 2001, 2002, etc. What jumped out at me, is that he could be headed for 2 <.500 teams in 3 years. I'm a huge KW fan...but that kind of result deserves some scrutiny.

TomBradley72
08-31-2009, 03:20 PM
Easier to ***** & moan if you don't mention 05.

Asking the question does not = bitching and moaning. Secondly, if we assess players on recent performance vs. what they did 4-5 years ago, why wouldn't this be reasonable for a GM as well? A three year window is a reasonable time for an assessment.

SoxGirl4Life
08-31-2009, 03:20 PM
I'd give Kenny a B. I'd give this thread an F for cherry picking what years to judge him on.

Is the season over yet?

voodoochile
08-31-2009, 03:26 PM
Asking the question does not = bitching and moaning. Secondly, if we assess players on recent performance vs. what they did 4-5 years ago, why wouldn't this be reasonable for a GM as well? A three year window is a reasonable time for an assessment.

Fine, turn that around. Take any 3 year window of any GM and evaluate them. If they make the playoffs during that window, I'd think they'd get a solid grade.

I mean considering the Sox have made the playoffs 9 times in their history, any three year window that includes one of those appearances would seem to be a successful one, wouldn't you?

canOcorn
08-31-2009, 03:31 PM
Mid 2009: B+ The additions of Peavy, Rios, & Pena are very high ceiling moves IMO which will pay off for the long run. Kenny got us better for the future here and honestly it helps cure our wounds a bit of what will be a disastrous ending to our season.




I wouldn't call Pena a high ceiling move. That move lowered his quality of work during the season.

voodoochile
08-31-2009, 03:38 PM
I wouldn't call Pena a high ceiling move. That move lowered his quality of work during the season.

He's got a good fastball, but he throws too much junk. I wish they could convince him to stick with the heat more. It's his junk that gets tagged.

LoveYourSuit
08-31-2009, 03:38 PM
I wouldn't call Pena a high ceiling move. That move lowered his quality of work during the season.


I can't judge that move is a failure based on a 2 month sample size.

Especially an arm of that quality.

Let's give it a chance here.

Lip Man 1
08-31-2009, 03:39 PM
He gets an incomplete. We don't know for sure the reasoning behind what happened this past off season. Until we do it's hard to "grade" him. I don't think Kenny 'suddenly' became stupid in a baseball sense... there was more going on than met the eye.

Starting the season the White Sox had a very undistinguished group of players on the roster. Many Sox fans openly wondered what was going on when Kenny Williams, in a buyer’s free agent market, basically sat on the sidelines after unloading players like Nick Swisher, Javy Vasquez, Joe Crede and Juan Uribe.

I don’t know of many Sox fans who didn’t think those players had to be moved, the issue was, that they weren’t replaced with equal or better talent.

For the first six weeks a large percentage of the roster was composed of players like “Corky” Miller, Jose Contreras, Brent Lillibridge, Josh Fields, Mike MacDougal, Lance Broadway, Dewayne Wise, Bartolo Colon, Brian Anderson, Jack Egbert and Wilson Betemit.

The talent level was far below what fans had come to expect this decade and the Sox paid the price getting off to a poor start. Games in April count as much as games in August and the poor start put the team behind the eight-ball right from the beginning. By mid May they were seven games under .500. The Sox were spinning their wheels until the calendar turned to June and Kenny began making changes.

Of course the overriding question was, why did Kenny do what he did in the off season?

Two possible answers have emerged.

The first is that Kenny simply miscalculated for the second time in three seasons and honestly thought that players like Miller (.176 career average), Wise (.214) and Betemit (.260) for example, could play better than their careers had indicated.

The second and more likely is that Kenny was told by ownership, ‘we’re cutting payroll significantly to brace ourselves for a loss of sponsorships and fans due to the economy’ and he did the best he could.

In the spring Jerry Reinsdorf had a rare interview with the Sox beat writers and clearly brought out his concern over the sponsors that could be gone after the season. In fact the Sox had the second largest payroll reduction in MLB, only San Diego cut more. Apparently that concern was so great that ownership was willing to partially jeopardize the 2009 season for 2010.

Kenny's a sharp guy and until we know better (if we ever do) he has to get a pass for the 2009 season to a certain extent, because it appears from a lot of circumstantial evidence that he was put in a bind.

Now he does take the hit for his 2007 'bullpen philosophy' of guys who had mediocre at best, success in the minor leagues and big leagues, but who threw hard. The problem was they couldn't throw strikes and when they did the ball was hit a long, long way. The 2007 season is his responsibility. The 2009 season like I said, is somewhat his right now, until we know more details. Finally Kenny helped bring a World Series to the Sox and he gets a tremendous amount of credit for that, but baseball like a lot of businesses is a 'what have you done lately' situation. What Kenny has accomplished in the past (and that's a lot) doesn't give him a lifetime pass in the future.

Lip

TomBradley72
08-31-2009, 03:42 PM
Fine, turn that around. Take any 3 year window of any GM and evaluate them. If they make the playoffs during that window, I'd think they'd get a solid grade.

I mean considering the Sox have made the playoffs 9 times in their history, any three year window that includes one of those appearances would seem to be a successful one, wouldn't you?

Yes...again, I started a thread asking a question. In that thread starter, I also said I'm a big KW fan...for the 2007-2009 window, I'd give him a B-, no 90 win seasons, but I like the foundation he has set for 2010+.

LoveYourSuit
08-31-2009, 03:43 PM
Fine, turn that around. Take any 3 year window of any GM and evaluate them. If they make the playoffs during that window, I'd think they'd get a solid grade.

I mean considering the Sox have made the playoffs 9 times in their history, any three year window that includes one of those appearances would seem to be a successful one, wouldn't you?


I think the stakes are higher. You won a championship and the popularity of this team has never been this high. In addition, payroll has been flying with the big boys lately.

So people are going to be more critical when judging this team and KW.

LoveYourSuit
08-31-2009, 03:46 PM
He gets an incomplete. We don't know for sure the reasoning behind what happened this past off season. Until we do it's hard to "grade" him. I don't think Kenny 'suddenly' became stupid in a baseball sense... there was more going on than met the eye.Lip........



That is still a mystery to me on how all of sudden we hit this treasure chest to be able to afford both Peavy and Rios.


Either JR and Kenny are pretty damn good at Poker, or the Sox struck an oil wel inside Comiskey Park.

canOcorn
08-31-2009, 03:49 PM
I can't judge that move is a failure based on a 2 month sample size.

Especially an arm of that quality.

Let's give it a chance here.

I based my comments on the fact Pena has been mediocre, at best, for his MLB career outside of the 1st half of 2007.

voodoochile
08-31-2009, 03:51 PM
I think the stakes are higher. You won a championship and the popularity of this team has never been this high. In addition, payroll has been flying with the big boys lately.

So people are going to be more critical when judging this team and KW.

I guess that's fair, but every year, 29 teams go home without a WS trophy and 28 teams go home without a pennant. In an all or nothing viewpoint is required to assess the performance than there's a lot of GM's that deserve bad grades.

I agree with Tom about the foundation. I think that matters and it's part of why I gave KW an A. Mostly I gave him an A because I think he's the best GM the team has ever had, though some would argue Hemond I imagine.

I trust KW more than any GM in any sport I've ever followed. It's impossible for every move to be a winner and every team to be a legitimate WS contender. KW has put the team in a pennant race two of the three years in question and won one division title in the process all while getting younger and stronger. Obviously I'd like another WS title or two in my lifetime, but with a 3-5 year window opening before our eyes and some enjoyable seasons (for the most part) these past two years, I think KW's done a great job.

I am sure some will disagree that this year has been enjoyable, but I had fun and actually still am...

voodoochile
08-31-2009, 03:56 PM
I think the stakes are higher. You won a championship and the popularity of this team has never been this high. In addition, payroll has been flying with the big boys lately.

So people are going to be more critical when judging this team and KW.

Not really. How much did they actually add to this year's budget by acquiring Peavy and Rios in August, $7M? The money for their contracts next year is already accounted for between Dotel, MacDougal, Contreras and Thome and they still have the Dye money to play with if they choose not to pick up his contract.

By now they know if they can afford to maintain this level of salary I'd imagine and figure maybe things weren't as bad in terms of lost advertising revenue as they thought or maybe they made more revenue off the TV station than they expected or were hoping to make the playoffs to make up the difference.

I'm not surprised they didn't feel they had the money to play with last winter until they knew how things panned out, but am also not surprised they took a chance late in the summer to make a run at things. Unfortunately it hasn't worked out.

Lip Man 1
08-31-2009, 04:02 PM
Voodoo:

Solid points. I also think this may have been a factor.

It's basically if ownership thought they were going to lose advertisers and ticket sales before the season started, how much more were they going to lose if the team tanked again by July and lost 90 games for the second time in three years?

If nothing else making the moves kept fans coming out for another six weeks or so. (It'll be interesting to see what they draw the final month...)

Lip

TomBradley72
08-31-2009, 04:45 PM
That is still a mystery to me on how all of sudden we hit this treasure chest to be able to afford both Peavy and Rios.


Either JR and Kenny are pretty damn good at Poker, or the Sox struck an oil wel inside Comiskey Park.

If they are planning on letting Contreras, Thome and Dye go, plus losing MacDougal's contract off the books...that frees up alot of cash for 2010.

If they plan on TCQ, TCM, Beckham and Getx being part of the starting 9...then that's more "payroll efficient" players as well.

kitekrazy
08-31-2009, 08:46 PM
He's by far the best GM in town.

Dibbs
08-31-2009, 08:53 PM
He has made some fun trades, but I am still extremely upset with the roster at the start of this season. I would say he gets a D for this year. We had/have no 4th or 5th starter, and no leadoff guy to start the year. I would say a C overall for the three year period.

soxfanreggie
08-31-2009, 09:15 PM
For those who don't like this thread, there is a simple option for you: don't read it! For those who want a different sample size (I highly doubt Tom was thinking to himself: "What years can I use to make KW look bad?"), start your own thread.

I think Tom asked a fair question. As someone who worked in athletics, I understand it has become a "What have you done for me lately?" business.

tsoxman
08-31-2009, 09:18 PM
He gets an incomplete. We don't know for sure the reasoning behind what happened this past off season. Until we do it's hard to "grade" him. I don't think Kenny 'suddenly' became stupid in a baseball sense... there was more going on than met the eye.

Starting the season the White Sox had a very undistinguished group of players on the roster. Many Sox fans openly wondered what was going on when Kenny Williams, in a buyer’s free agent market, basically sat on the sidelines after unloading players like Nick Swisher, Javy Vasquez, Joe Crede and Juan Uribe.

I don’t know of many Sox fans who didn’t think those players had to be moved, the issue was, that they weren’t replaced with equal or better talent.

For the first six weeks a large percentage of the roster was composed of players like “Corky” Miller, Jose Contreras, Brent Lillibridge, Josh Fields, Mike MacDougal, Lance Broadway, Dewayne Wise, Bartolo Colon, Brian Anderson, Jack Egbert and Wilson Betemit.

The talent level was far below what fans had come to expect this decade and the Sox paid the price getting off to a poor start. Games in April count as much as games in August and the poor start put the team behind the eight-ball right from the beginning. By mid May they were seven games under .500. The Sox were spinning their wheels until the calendar turned to June and Kenny began making changes.

Of course the overriding question was, why did Kenny do what he did in the off season?

Two possible answers have emerged.

The first is that Kenny simply miscalculated for the second time in three seasons and honestly thought that players like Miller (.176 career average), Wise (.214) and Betemit (.260) for example, could play better than their careers had indicated.

The second and more likely is that Kenny was told by ownership, ‘we’re cutting payroll significantly to brace ourselves for a loss of sponsorships and fans due to the economy’ and he did the best he could.

In the spring Jerry Reinsdorf had a rare interview with the Sox beat writers and clearly brought out his concern over the sponsors that could be gone after the season. In fact the Sox had the second largest payroll reduction in MLB, only San Diego cut more. Apparently that concern was so great that ownership was willing to partially jeopardize the 2009 season for 2010.

Kenny's a sharp guy and until we know better (if we ever do) he has to get a pass for the 2009 season to a certain extent, because it appears from a lot of circumstantial evidence that he was put in a bind.

Now he does take the hit for his 2007 'bullpen philosophy' of guys who had mediocre at best, success in the minor leagues and big leagues, but who threw hard. The problem was they couldn't throw strikes and when they did the ball was hit a long, long way. The 2007 season is his responsibility. The 2009 season like I said, is somewhat his right now, until we know more details. Finally Kenny helped bring a World Series to the Sox and he gets a tremendous amount of credit for that, but baseball like a lot of businesses is a 'what have you done lately' situation. What Kenny has accomplished in the past (and that's a lot) doesn't give him a lifetime pass in the future.

Lip

But what changed with the clubs economics that led to the committment of $120 milliion to two players? I did not necessarily see a huge bump in attendance and last I heard, the asbestos attorneys were still advertising on the radio during the games so no big change in ad revenue either. For this season, I give him a failing grade. if he had to rebuild, he should have done just that.

Also, what most people dont't realize is that Kennys biggest successes are the under the radar moves that are not 'press conference worthy' but more effective and less expensive. This was the formula that helped us to win in 2005. These moves included acquiring Dye, Igutchi, AJ, and Pods. More recent good low budget deals include getting Quentin Alexei, Gavin, Matt and Danks.

Domeshot17
08-31-2009, 10:04 PM
I give them both D's. 2007 was clearly an F year, that team was terrible. 2008 was a bad team with a bunch of bad fits with enough pure talent to back into the playoffs. 2009 was a year half the fan base saw coming, with a team doing exactly was half the fan base said they would.

So Basically, I give 2007 an F, 2008 a C and 2009 a D. The C and F average the D.

I think these 3 years have exposed holes in Kenny and Ozzie. I think it also has proven Ozzie getting the team Ozzie wants doesn't mean it works in the offense he wants. Ozzie had his team of speedy athletic players this year, he had no one minus beckham playing out of position, and its one of the worst offensive and defensive fundamental teams we have had ever.

The sad thing is, come next March, we will get the same recycled crap about a White Sox commitment to fundamentals.

Lip Man 1
08-31-2009, 10:27 PM
TSoxman:

Read my theory on your question of what changed to Voodoo earlier in this thread.

Dome:

Well you could say that Ramirez is out of position, Getz lacks the mental fundamentals of where to go and what to do at second base, Quentin is hurt, Podsednik is a brutal outfielder sometimes being asked to play center.

There are times when a LOT of guys are out of position, that plus trying to work in kids from a bad farm system (not saying the kids themselves are bad but as Daver among others pointed out, the minor league system doesn't teach fundamentals well) and you have solid evidence for bad defense.

Lip

Noneck
08-31-2009, 10:37 PM
Lip,

Ironically in the past month no one on this team except Beckhams cup o coffee is a product on this farm system. Even before that only a few, Fields, Anderson, Wise and Getz, have had any real playing time.

Lip Man 1
08-31-2009, 10:38 PM
True but my comment to Dome was based on all the guys including the likes of Fields and so forth.

Lip