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Lip Man 1
08-29-2009, 05:18 PM
http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/08/ozzie-guillen-unloads-after-white-soxs-100-loss-at-yankee-stadium.html

Lip

Viva Medias B's
08-29-2009, 05:22 PM
Ha! About time!

LITTLE NELL
08-29-2009, 05:23 PM
Amen to that, Ozzie.

chisoxfan83
08-29-2009, 05:25 PM
it was only a matter of time....maybe time for a winning streak? Usually happens when ozzie starts going off.

Frankfan4life
08-29-2009, 05:47 PM
I'm afraid that Ozzie's job might be in jeopardy. The Sox look so good on paper but are seriously under-performing. A lot of managers have been fired for that reason.

WhiteSox1989
08-29-2009, 05:51 PM
What is Ozzie suppose to do though? If you think about what was given to him in the beginning of the season what in the hell was he suppose to do? I respect Kenny a lot but what was he thinking in the off season? What was Ozzie suppose to do with that?

ndgt10
08-29-2009, 05:52 PM
I'm afraid that Ozzie's job might be in jeopardy. The Sox look so good on paper but are seriously under-performing. A lot of managers have been fired for that reason.
I agree. If this team continues like this he will be fired after this season.

Noneck
08-29-2009, 05:55 PM
It sure beats kicking your dog.

BainesHOF
08-29-2009, 05:58 PM
I heard Ozzie's complete comments on the postgame show. He should be embarrassed.

This team has numerous issues, and they need to be addressed individually. One of the them is this team has pretty much quit. I was at the first game in Boston and the difference in attitude, hustle and body language between us and the Red Sox was striking. I predicted in the middle of the game that we'd be swept. Well, I was pretty close in my prediction. Now we're in position to be swept in New York. It's one thing to play badly. It's another thing to pack it in. The sad thing is the team looked like it had little interest in fighting for a playoff spot from the start of the road trip when it was still in prime striking distance of Detroit.

Now, who's to blame for this? Certainly the players. But also the manager. Forget some of the ridiculous things he says and the dumb moves he makes or doesn't make. And there are many of each of those. The most important thing a manager can do is have his team play hard. And the Sox are falling way, way short in this department.

soxyess
08-29-2009, 05:59 PM
Ozzie isn't getting fired! Look up and down this lineup, and see what you are getting from the highest paid veterans ZERO. PK DYE Thome. ZERO. They are the veteran core and they have played like garbage. They dont scare anyone anymore, and its time for them to go. With the exception of Beckham, everyone on this roster is fair game to be moved, and I expect KW to move a ton of this roster. Blame the highly paid players before you blame the coaches.

Frankfan4life
08-29-2009, 06:00 PM
What is Ozzie suppose to do though? If you think about what was given to him in the beginning of the season what in the hell was he suppose to do? I respect Kenny a lot but what was he thinking in the off season? What was Ozzie suppose to do with that?As they say, "you can't fire the team." This team needs a major shake-up and getting rid of Ozzie or threatening to get rid of him might be the catalyst the team needs. I don't want to see him go but something has got to change. I can't take much more of this excuse for baseball this team has been playing.

CWSpalehoseCWS
08-29-2009, 06:05 PM
Ozzie isn't getting fired! Look up and down this lineup, and see what you are getting from the highest paid veterans ZERO. PK DYE Thome. ZERO. They are the veteran core and they have played like garbage. They dont scare anyone anymore, and its time for them to go. With the exception of Beckham, everyone on this roster is fair game to be moved, and I expect KW to move a ton of this roster. Blame the highly paid players before you blame the coaches.

Yeah. I don't see how KW can bring Dye and Thome back. The only thing stopping him from moving Konerko might be that we don't have someone waiting in the wings and the NTC. I don't think Ozzie will be fired, but I could see him saying, I don't want to do this anymore and quiting.

A. Cavatica
08-29-2009, 06:08 PM
I agree. If this team continues like this he will be fired after this season.

Nah, he won't. They aren't playing with any less life than they have since the second half of 2006, when he actually deserved to be fired.

DumpJerry
08-29-2009, 06:11 PM
Ozzie isn't getting fired.


:rolleyes:

A. Cavatica
08-29-2009, 06:14 PM
Ozzie isn't getting fired.


:rolleyes:

And the team isn't going to turn it around until he is.

southside rocks
08-29-2009, 06:19 PM
Ranger played the clip on the post-game show on WSCR. Classic Ozzie. I bet that every one of the 25 players on the team are going out of their way to avoid their manager tonight.

It makes me wonder what the off-season will bring. I've always viewed Paul Konerko as untouchable, ever since he handed the WS game ball to JR at the rally in 2005, but when things go badly for this team, PK's often a big part of the "badly." Where will he play in 2010?

Earlier this year, even as Jose Contreras struggled, I would have said it was out of the question for the Sox to simply cut him loose. His salary and the loyalty he had shown, and earned in return, made that impossible to consider. Now I wonder, where will Jose play in September 2009?

Clearly, Ozzie's had enough; and if he's had enough, it's likely that Kenny Williams has had more than enough. I don't know what changes are coming, but I sure don't see them standing pat.

soxyess
08-29-2009, 06:19 PM
And the team isn't going to turn it around until he is.

Stop blaming the manager! Thats what they do on the other side of town. Yea Ozzie has made his mistakes most managers do, but who got picked off third, second, first, who fails to get a runner home from third with no outs, who has bases loaded and no outs and fails to score, and who made over 100 errors?

WhiteSox1989
08-29-2009, 06:21 PM
Stop blaming the manager! Thats what they do on the other side of town. Yea Ozzie has made his mistakes most managers do, but who got picked off third, second, first, who fails to get a runner home from third with no outs, who has bases loaded and no outs and fails to score, and who made over 100 errors?
Yeah, I think it's only fair to put PART of the blame on the manager. But he can't go out there and play those game for them.

soxyess
08-29-2009, 06:27 PM
Yeah, I think it's only fair to put PART of the blame on the manager. But he can't go out there and play those game for them.

I agree he's made his share of mistakes, but the way these guys are playing is disgusting!

WhiteSox5187
08-29-2009, 06:29 PM
And the team isn't going to turn it around until he is.

You know he managed an incredibly mediocre team to the playoffs last year. John McGraw couldn't do much with this team. Look at the opening day roster and look at the turn over we've had since then. Not many teams that have that much turnover are going to make the playoffs. And I odn't know if ANY team that is counting on Jose Contreras and Bartolo Colon for their fourth and fifth starters would make the playoffs.

soxyess
08-29-2009, 06:31 PM
You know he managed an incredibly mediocre team to the playoffs last year. John McGraw couldn't do much with this team. Look at the opening day roster and look at the turn over we've had since then. Not many teams that have that much turnover are going to make the playoffs. And I odn't know if ANY team that is counting on Jose Contreras and Bartolo Colon for their fourth and fifth starters would make the playoffs.

Great Post!

WhiteSox1989
08-29-2009, 06:31 PM
You know he managed an incredibly mediocre team to the playoffs last year. John McGraw couldn't do much with this team. Look at the opening day roster and look at the turn over we've had since then. Not many teams that have that much turnover are going to make the playoffs. And I odn't know if ANY team that is counting on Jose Contreras and Bartolo Colon for their fourth and fifth starters would make the playoffs.
This is an excellent point. Like I said, I respect Kenny A LOT but he didn't give Ozzie much to work with.

JB98
08-29-2009, 06:39 PM
As they say, "you can't fire the team." This team needs a major shake-up and getting rid of Ozzie or threatening to get rid of him might be the catalyst the team needs. I don't want to see him go but something has got to change. I can't take much more of this excuse for baseball this team has been playing.

Yes you can. The Sox have fired the players many times. Just ask Javier Vazquez and Nick Swisher. And half the players on the 2004 and 2007 rosters.

Frankfan4life
08-29-2009, 06:44 PM
Yes you can. The Sox have fired the players many times. Just ask Javier Vazquez and Nick Swisher. And half the players on the 2004 and 2007 rosters.Please get real. The operative word is "team." Of course individual players can and are traded or let go but not a whole "team."

White City
08-29-2009, 06:45 PM
The question about Ozzie's job status comes down to this for me: How young will next year's team be?

Ozzie seems to do reasonably well managing the egos of a veteran team. However, most of the moments that have driven us crazy with him have involved young players that need to play consistently, to develop, to be handled a certain way.

If we're going to dump the old guys and go young in '10, is Ozzie the right style manager? Are his coaches the right guys as well?

Perhaps the planned personnel for '10 might make the argument for Kenny to get a fresh start at the manager and coaching level (Coop excepted).

gobears1987
08-29-2009, 06:47 PM
And the team isn't going to turn it around until he is.
And you earned another one of these...

:rolleyes:

voodoochile
08-29-2009, 06:49 PM
You know he managed an incredibly mediocre team to the playoffs last year. John McGraw couldn't do much with this team. Look at the opening day roster and look at the turn over we've had since then. Not many teams that have that much turnover are going to make the playoffs. And I odn't know if ANY team that is counting on Jose Contreras and Bartolo Colon for their fourth and fifth starters would make the playoffs.

Yeah and because of the hole they dug those first few months while dealing with those issues everyone else got overtaxed. This team is tired because it's been fighting so damned hard just to stay afloat, especially the reliable starters and the bullpen. It's also obvious that Dye is coming to the end of his days playing 150 games in the field, but because of the injuries to TCQ and the struggles of other players, Ozzie hasn't been able to rest him at all. Of course the logical place to rest him is as DH, but the Sox have a DH who's been as productive as anyone on the team offensively, so the team has been ground down slowly but surely and now when they need a boost there's nothing left in the tank.

Yes, there are other issues too. A bunch of these players will be gone next year as age and end of contract dictates, but right now the frazzled nub that is the end of August 2009 White Sox team just doesn't have much left.

Ozzie can rant and yell all he wants, but it is what it is...

rdwj
08-29-2009, 06:49 PM
And you earned another one of these...

:rolleyes:

Make it 2 :rolleyes:

The guy is the most successful manager we've had since I've been following the team. There is no way in hell he gets fired. He might quit, but he won't be fired.

JB98
08-29-2009, 06:49 PM
Please get real. The operative word is "team." Of course individual players can and are traded or let go but not a whole "team."

I am getting real. Neither KW nor Ozzie is going to be scapegoated. Changes will be made to the roster if the team fails to qualify for the playoffs.

twinsuck
08-29-2009, 06:50 PM
The Sox needed a kick in the ass. Maybe this will get them going.

Hitmen77
08-29-2009, 06:52 PM
http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2009/08/ozzie-guillen-unloads-after-white-soxs-100-loss-at-yankee-stadium.html

Lip

Same old, same old. KW calls out the team, Ozzie throws them under the bus.....and the results are still the same. Whatever. :cuss:

...

Now, who's to blame for this? Certainly the players. But also the manager. Forget some of the ridiculous things he says and the dumb moves he makes or doesn't make. And there are many of each of those. The most important thing a manager can do is have his team play hard. And the Sox are falling way, way short in this department.

Everyone on the Sox staff is to blame (players, coaches, manager) except Greg Walker.

You know he managed an incredibly mediocre team to the playoffs last year. John McGraw couldn't do much with this team. Look at the opening day roster and look at the turn over we've had since then. Not many teams that have that much turnover are going to make the playoffs. And I odn't know if ANY team that is counting on Jose Contreras and Bartolo Colon for their fourth and fifth starters would make the playoffs.

In the end, this is what it comes down to. Yes, we would have lost today no matter who was on the mound, but 2/5ths of our pitching staff is laughably bad. KW has made a lot of great moves, but in the end he's the one who was counting on Jose/Colon/Richard/Marquez to be 2 of our starters going into this season. Sorry, that is not a serious contender. Richard wasn't very successful either while he was here. The best thing he did (for next year) was help net us Jake Peavy.

samurai_sox
08-29-2009, 06:53 PM
And the team isn't going to turn it around until he is.

Who would you replace Ozzie with? There aren't really a lot of good managers available out there. Besides, I have the feeling that good managers find the Sox an unattractive team to manage and would pass us up for somewhere else.

chisoxfanatic
08-29-2009, 06:54 PM
I don't know how you guys are feeling, but I'm quite numb right now.

It's nice for Ozzie to finally show some fire, but he hasn't held anyone accountable this year, so he is greatly to blame here.

SI1020
08-29-2009, 06:54 PM
"I believe they're pouting like babies since Rios arrived." That was what one poster said in the comments section and I agree. Of course it's just one small part of a much larger problem.

billyvsox
08-29-2009, 07:13 PM
"I believe they're pouting like babies since Rios arrived." That was what one poster said in the comments section and I agree. Of course it's just one small part of a much larger problem.

Agreed, since the Rios pick up, this team hasn't been the same. I am not sure why but there seems to be some sort of correlation.

However, now that we have officially imploded and sept 1st is just around the corner, lets bring up Poreda, Allen, Dexter Carter, and Richard to see how they perform.....oops, that right, they are gone now. (-: Sure could have used them for next year.

Zisk77
08-29-2009, 07:15 PM
1. ozzie's not getting fired.

2. we will be in the playoffs again with Ozzie as our manager.

Noneck
08-29-2009, 07:18 PM
I am getting real. Neither KW nor Ozzie is going to be scapegoated. Changes will be made to the roster if the team fails to qualify for the playoffs.

Making a comment like that, makes it kind of difficult to take the rest of your comments seriously.

veeter
08-29-2009, 07:24 PM
Agreed, since the Rios pick up, this team hasn't been the same. I am not sure why but there seems to be some sort of correlation.

However, now that we have officially imploded and sept 1st is just around the corner, lets bring up Poreda, Allen, Dexter Carter, and Richard to see how they perform.....oops, that right, they are gone now. (-: Sure could have used them for next year.What does this mean? You've already flushed Jake Peavy before he's thrown one White Sox pitch? The joke missed the mark.

Martinigirl
08-29-2009, 07:34 PM
Ozzie won't be fired. Please. I can't fathom Kenny firing Ozzie, and I really can't imagine Jerry allowing it.

And what is with people bitching about Paulie? He has been one of the few to show up for this road trip. I know he hasn't set the world on fire after the All Star break, but of our issues, he is not even on the list, let alone being on the the top of the list.

I am normally a positive person, which is why I have basically avoided WSI this week because I knew it would be awful, but I think I have now come to grips with the fact this season is over. I hope to god I am wrong, but I seriously doubt it, so having no expectations, except not embarrassing themselves on the field, hopefully I will be able to somewhat enjoy the end of the season.

DickAllen72
08-29-2009, 07:37 PM
And what is with people bitching about Paulie? He has been one of the few to show up for this road trip. I know he hasn't set the world on fire after the All Star break, but of our issues, he is not even on the list, let alone being on the the top of the list.

I wonder how many more errors the Sox infielders would have if Paulie wasn't consistently picking low throws out of the dirt.

Of the three "slow sluggers" in the middle of the lineup, the only one who plays defense well is Konerko. He should be the one that stays.

JB98
08-29-2009, 07:51 PM
Making a comment like that, makes it kind of difficult to take the rest of your comments seriously.

Then don't take them seriously. I don't care one way or another.

It's interesting to me -- I've been one of the biggest dark clouds all season. I hate this team and have hated them all year. But now I'm one of the biggest optimists on WSI because I refuse to concede that a five-game deficit on August 29 in insurmountable.

My how things have changed in the last 10-14 days.

Martinigirl
08-29-2009, 07:55 PM
It's interesting to me -- I've been one of the biggest dark clouds all season. I hate this team and have hated them all year. But now I'm one of the biggest optimists on WSI because I refuse to concede that a five-game deficit on August 29 in insurmountable.

My how things have changed in the last 10-14 days.

What has me so negative is how we lost. How we look like we aren't even showing up for games. It has been a disgrace.

And I hope you are right and I am wrong. I will happily give you credit for your positive attitude if we make the post season.

HangWiffum
08-29-2009, 07:57 PM
8 wins and 20 losses from Contreras/Colon/Garcia...

Aging offensive players that are fading down the stretch AGAIN...

Bullpen that keeps giving it up...

Worst defense in baseball...

I like to blame Ozzie for many things. He is really bad at handling the staff. He gets some blame for this season but not the bulk.

guillensdisciple
08-29-2009, 07:58 PM
I am going to go out on a limb and say the White Sox will now dominate for the rest of the season.


I mean, we can't do much worse and I have nothing else to grasp for. You guys can :rolleyes: me as much as you want, but let me hold on to a little bit of hope would ya?

JB98
08-29-2009, 08:00 PM
What has me so negative is how we lost. How we look like we aren't even showing up for games. It has been a disgrace.

And I hope you are right and I am wrong. I will happily give you credit for your positive attitude if we make the post season.

Well, I'm not that positive. I don't think they are going to make the playoffs. I really don't. Since May, I've been figuring that this season would end in tears.

But that's just being rational and realist and all that stuff. My rational, realistic side has been proven wrong before. Whatever hope you have left, you're allowed to cling to it, IMO. Having hope is not a terrible thing.

And that's coming from a guy who has spent most of this season getting tsk-tsked by Brian26 and jabrch for not having any faith in the team.

Noneck
08-29-2009, 08:03 PM
Then don't take them seriously. I don't care one way or another.

It's interesting to me -- I've been one of the biggest dark clouds all season. I hate this team and have hated them all year. But now I'm one of the biggest optimists on WSI because I refuse to concede that a five-game deficit on August 29 in insurmountable.

My how things have changed in the last 10-14 days.

You were never a dark cloud, you were just a realist that understood the game of baseball.

My comments were not meant to provoke you, I look at you as a young Lip (not to say that Lip is old). And that means I respect you.

You are a journalist, please step back and look at this situation objectively.

sullythered
08-29-2009, 08:04 PM
As they say, "you can't fire the team." This team needs a major shake-up and getting rid of Ozzie or threatening to get rid of him might be the catalyst the team needs. I don't want to see him go but something has got to change. I can't take much more of this excuse for baseball this team has been playing.
We certainly can, and will. Dye, Thome, Contreras, Colon, Dotel will all be "fired" from this team in the offseason. Ozzie has shown he can win when he has the horses. This year, he did not have the horses.

Paulwny
08-29-2009, 08:08 PM
We certainly can, and will. Dye, Thome, Contreras, Colon, Dotel will all be "fired" from this team in the offseason. Ozzie has shown he can win when he has the horses. This year, he did not have the horses.


Any manager can win when they have the horses. Its the good manager who wins with a few pieces missing.

sullythered
08-29-2009, 08:09 PM
Any manager can win when they have the horses. Its the good manager who wins with a few pieces missing.
You mean like last year?

Martinigirl
08-29-2009, 08:11 PM
I want a manager who can handle a pitching staff. If Ozzie can do that, fine, if he can't learn how to do that, than I wish he would go. But he will never be fired.

Paulwny
08-29-2009, 08:15 PM
You mean like last year?

No, like Stengel winning World Series during the 50's with all the horses, not winning a crap division last yr and folding during the play -offs.

sullythered
08-29-2009, 08:18 PM
No, like Stengel winning World Series during the 50's with all the horses, not winning a crap division last yr and folding during the play -offs.
So you're saying a guy has to be Casey freakin' Stengel to be a "good" manager?

There are almost none, if there are any, managers who consistantly win with a roster as brutally flawed as the Sox roster is.

hawkjt
08-29-2009, 08:19 PM
Yet somehow we are second in the league in ERA...the pitching is not the real problem, it is the offense and defense.
Glad that Ozzie got it off his chest, they need to wake up now.
Win the next 5 pick up 3 games and this can be fun.

Paulwny
08-29-2009, 08:21 PM
So you're saying a guy has to be Casey freakin' Stengel to be a "good" manager?

There are almost none, if there are any, managers who consistantly win with a roster as brutally flawed as the Sox roster is.



No Stengel was an ave manager, but he had the horses.
Winning a World Series when you don't have all the horses is an accomplishment.

DickAllen72
08-29-2009, 08:24 PM
Well, I'm not that positive. I don't think they are going to make the playoffs. I really don't. Since May, I've been figuring that this season would end in tears.

But that's just being rational and realist and all that stuff. My rational, realistic side has been proven wrong before. Whatever hope you have left, you're allowed to cling to it, IMO. Having hope is not a terrible thing.

And that's coming from a guy who has spent most of this season getting tsk-tsked by Brian26 and jabrch for not having any faith in the team.
For whatever it's worth, you're one of my favorite posters. :cheers:

JB98
08-29-2009, 08:32 PM
You were never a dark cloud, you were just a realist that understood the game of baseball.

My comments were not meant to provoke you, I look at you as a young Lip (not to say that Lip is old). And that means I respect you.

You are a journalist, please step back and look at this situation objectively.

I feel I am looking at the situation objectively. I believe this is a .500 baseball team. They will finish between 78 and 82 wins, IMO. I've said that all year. That's my journalistic take. That's my realistic take.

But I've been a sports journalist long enough now to know that I get proven wrong at times. I've watched enough baseball to know that I don't know everything. I've been surprised many times before.

I don't think the Sox will recover and win the division. I don't. I'm just saying there's no sense in abandoning all hope, because it is possible to overcome a five-game deficit with 32 to play. I've seen it before. Will it happen here? I doubt it, but you never know. And I'm not going to tell people that they aren't allowed to hope for the best.

thomas35forever
08-29-2009, 08:33 PM
Ozzie isn't getting fired! Look up and down this lineup, and see what you are getting from the highest paid veterans ZERO. PK DYE Thome. ZERO. They are the veteran core and they have played like garbage. They dont scare anyone anymore, and its time for them to go. With the exception of Beckham, everyone on this roster is fair game to be moved, and I expect KW to move a ton of this roster. Blame the highly paid players before you blame the coaches.
Okay, we get it. You want those three gone. This is like the 25th thread you've said that in.

As for Ozzie, it's about time he did it. If it does anything to spark the team however, it might be a little too late. The season keeps slipping away with each passing day.

hawkjt
08-29-2009, 08:34 PM
I think when Castro did not score from 2nd base friday nite with the bases loaded ,3-2 count...and the camera caught him hesitating, doing two sissors steps before turning and sprinting might have put Ozzie on the edge of insanity. And I am there with him...Castro forgot there were two outs, I believe....unfrickingbelievable!! That would have been a game-winner, and he needs to be turning and sprinting the instance the pitcher goes to the plate...and he is lallygagggingg alll confused?
I am ready for Castro to move on.

Noneck
08-29-2009, 08:37 PM
I feel I am looking at the situation objectively. I believe this is a .500 baseball team. They will finish between 78 and 82 wins, IMO. I've said that all year. That's my journalistic take. That's my realistic take.

But I've been a sports journalist long enough now to know that I get proven wrong at times. I've watched enough baseball to know that I don't know everything. I've been surprised many times before.

I don't think the Sox will recover and win the division. I don't. I'm just saying there's no sense in abandoning all hope, because it is possible to overcome a five-game deficit with 32 to play. I've seen it before. Will it happen here? I doubt it, but you never know. And I'm not going to tell people that they aren't allowed to hope for the best.

"Never give out while there is hope; but hope not beyond reason, for that shows more desire than judgment." William Penn

Daver
08-29-2009, 08:43 PM
Any manager can win when they have the horses. Its the good manager who wins with a few pieces missing.

I disagree with this, there are plenty of managers that had all the horses and failed, Lou Piniella comes to mind.

Britt Burns
08-29-2009, 08:43 PM
What took you so long Oz?!?!?

Ranger
08-29-2009, 08:47 PM
I agree. If this team continues like this he will be fired after this season.

Ozzie is going nowhere unless he quits.

Noneck
08-29-2009, 08:50 PM
I disagree with this, there are plenty of managers that had all the horses and failed, Lou Piniella comes to mind.
His Seattle tenure?

Daver
08-29-2009, 09:01 PM
His Seattle tenure?

It's not limited to that, but it does stand out.

Lip Man 1
08-29-2009, 09:05 PM
Just as there isn't "one" reason or area why the team is mediocre (at best) there isn't "one" person who gets the blame.

* The players have played poorly again like in 2007.
* Ozzie has made some managerial mistakes
* and Kenny for whatever reason or reasons didn't give him a lot to work with to begin the year. That's a fact. I agree with Voodoo, it put them behind the eight ball right off the bat and could never catch up.

ALL share the blame and embarrassment as well they should.

Lip

Noneck
08-29-2009, 09:12 PM
Just as there isn't "one" reason or area why the team is mediocre (at best) there isn't "one" person who gets the blame.

* The players have played poorly again like in 2007.
* Ozzie has made some managerial mistakes
* and Kenny for whatever reason or reasons didn't give him a lot to work with to begin the year. That's a fact. I agree with Voodoo, it put them behind the eight ball right off the bat and could never catch up.

ALL share the blame and embarrassment as well they should.

Lip

Yes but lets not forget the blame starts all the way at the top and then filters down. Lets not just start at Williams.

Hitmen77
08-29-2009, 09:28 PM
8 wins and 20 losses from Contreras/Colon/Garcia...

Aging offensive players that are fading down the stretch AGAIN...

Bullpen that keeps giving it up...

Worst defense in baseball...

I like to blame Ozzie for many things. He is really bad at handling the staff. He gets some blame for this season but not the bulk.

We'll have 4 solid starters next year. However, the Sox also need acceptable performance from the 5th starter otherwise we'll be facing these kind of numbers again next year.

This year we were stuck with Jose's contract....but we were also stuck with him in the rotation because we had no viable alternatives. The plan going into this year was to have Jose/Colon/Richard/Marquez fill out the 4th and 5th spots. It should be no surprise to anyone that these spots have failed miserably and have overtaxed our bullpen to the point that they've melted down.

I just hope the Sox aren't just hoping Dan Hudson will be ready to be the 5th starter next year and have another Colon-type player as a "plan B".

GoSox2K3
08-29-2009, 09:35 PM
Yes but lets not forget the blame starts all the way at the top and then filters down. Lets not just start at Williams.

Don't forget to skip Greg Walker. He has no responsibility for our offense whatsoever according to the WSI braintrust. :shrug:

Woofer
08-29-2009, 09:50 PM
We'll have 4 solid starters next year. However, the Sox also need acceptable performance from the 5th starter otherwise we'll be facing these kind of numbers again next year.

This year we were stuck with Jose's contract....but we were also stuck with him in the rotation because we had no viable alternatives. The plan going into this year was to have Jose/Colon/Richard/Marquez fill out the 4th and 5th spots. It should be no surprise to anyone that these spots have failed miserably and have overtaxed our bullpen to the point that they've melted down.

I just hope the Sox aren't just hoping Dan Hudson will be ready to be the 5th starter next year and have another Colon-type player as a "plan B".

The problem going in, and this has been brought up alot this year, is that we had a viable alternative, his name was Javier Vazquez. He was traded away for prospects, and was not replaced. It is a testament to the rest of this team that they are even in the ballpark of .500 baseball. Kenny hoped that Contreras and Colon could fix their broken selves and return to an earlier form. It hasn't worked out. Clayton Richard showed some promise, but was traded away for an injured Jake Peavey, yet to play. That trade alone has caused much of this pitching staff burnout of late.

This has been a very disappointing season, I only hope that they can save face and make things interesting the final month of the season.

ndgt10
08-29-2009, 09:54 PM
The problem going in, and this has been brought up alot this year, is that we had a viable alternative, his name was Javier Vazquez. He was traded away for prospects, and was not replaced. It is a testament to the rest of this team that they are even in the ballpark of .500 baseball. Kenny hoped that Contreras and Colon could fix their broken selves and return to an earlier form. It hasn't worked out. Clayton Richard showed some promise, but was traded away for an injured Jake Peavey, yet to play. That trade alone has caused much of this pitching staff burnout of late.

This has been a very disappointing season, I only hope that they can save face and make things interesting the final month of the season.
You don't pay a 5th starter that kind of money.

Woofer
08-29-2009, 10:01 PM
You don't pay a 5th starter that kind of money.

Yes, but we didn't even have a viable forth starter.

kitekrazy
08-29-2009, 10:07 PM
it was only a matter of time....maybe time for a winning streak? Usually happens when ozzie starts going off.

Yeah that lasts about a game. They'll probably win 10-2 tomorrow and get their asses kicked by the Twins.

RedPinStripes
08-29-2009, 10:25 PM
I don't blame Ozzie. This team is just bad. I didnt think they were this bad, but I did see a lot of bad defensive players in April.

I trust in KW for next year. A few of these guys gotta go.

johnnyg83
08-29-2009, 10:30 PM
I don't think this team is bad.

I think it has underperformed and been outsmarted and outhustled and made stupid mistakes, bad errors and had bad luck.

The lineup on paper is good. It just sucks on grass.

Rohan
08-29-2009, 10:31 PM
Ozzie isn't getting fired.


:rolleyes:

I hope you're right.

RedPinStripes
08-29-2009, 10:33 PM
I don't think this team is bad.

I think it has underperformed and been outsmarted and outhustled and made stupid mistakes, bad errors and had bad luck.

The lineup on paper is good. It just sucks on grass.

Sounds like a bad team to me.

kitekrazy
08-29-2009, 10:35 PM
I'm afraid that Ozzie's job might be in jeopardy. The Sox look so good on paper but are seriously under-performing. A lot of managers have been fired for that reason.

Really? Is that the same paper read by Ray Charles? How does a team that is next to last in giving up unearned runs look good on paper? The "experts" predicted this to be a 4th place team.

I'd say put the blame more on KW. He's the one who gambled on Contreras and Colon. How about thinking Josh could play 3rd, while letting both Crede and Uribe go. If a Sox fan and management can leave their emotions at the door, the Yanks got a good laugh out of the Swisher trade. I could care less if everyone hated him. Did anyone love the replacement?

Hopefully KW got a dose of reality now knowing the farm system wasn't all that. He had hopes they would step up.

Good thing Beckham is good and Pods found the fountain of youth.

Run production will always be difficult when your 3-5 hitters are slow on the bases.

The last guy you can blame is Ozzy. All he can do is replace suck with more suck.

Did anyone have any unrealistic hopes this team was anywhere capable of winning a World Series considering what was out there opening day?

Viva Medias B's
08-29-2009, 11:36 PM
Ozzie is not the reason we are where we are. Has he made some mistakes? Sure. All managers do. However, he is one of the last people I'd blame for our situation.

The Immigrant
08-29-2009, 11:51 PM
I'd say put the blame more on KW.

Kenny was ordered to slash payroll in the offseason. Under the circumstances, I don't blame him one bit.

Hitmen77
08-30-2009, 12:20 AM
The problem going in, and this has been brought up alot this year, is that we had a viable alternative, his name was Javier Vazquez. He was traded away for prospects, and was not replaced. It is a testament to the rest of this team that they are even in the ballpark of .500 baseball. Kenny hoped that Contreras and Colon could fix their broken selves and return to an earlier form. It hasn't worked out. Clayton Richard showed some promise, but was traded away for an injured Jake Peavey, yet to play. That trade alone has caused much of this pitching staff burnout of late.



Interesting point about Javy. He wasn't a favorite among Sox fans (including me), but even his .500, fold under pressure ways would be better than the Contreras/Colon/etc. fiasco....maybe enough to have us near the division lead.

But even so, that wouldn't solve our offensive and defensive failures. Plus, keeping Javy would likely have meant no Peavy and no Rios for 2010.....and no Tyler Flowers as a promising prospect that might help us in a year or two.

doublem23
08-30-2009, 01:10 AM
And the team isn't going to turn it around until he is.

Just like in 2003 when he could never manage them to a World Title, either, I suppose.

jabrch
08-30-2009, 01:13 AM
And the team isn't going to turn it around until he is.

Come on...That's ridiculous.

samurai_sox
08-30-2009, 03:28 AM
I know we're anti-ESPN around here but on Baseball Tonight they agreed with Ozzie's rant, that little leaguers are playing better than us, that the organization, city, and players especially should be totally embarrassed.

I'm really starting to get pissed off, I don't wanna be embarrassed to be a White Sox fan, I wanna be proud to be a White Sox fan!!!! :angry::angry:

Dan H
08-30-2009, 07:34 AM
There is enough blame to go around. The simple fact is at this point the White Sox have played sub-.500 ball since the All-Star break in '06. That can be Ozzie's fault but I think the real blame is with Williams. He put this mess together. Nice move, KW, trade for someone who can't even play. And if he is constrained by ownership, what are we supposed to do? Be like mindless Cub fans and love losing?

I don't blame Ozzie for calling off. I don't know if it will help, but I don't blame him. When this team is failing to execute in the late innings, it is getting beaten to a pulp. The Nationals are better right now. At least they show a little emotion and pride.

southside rocks
08-30-2009, 08:55 AM
I know we're anti-ESPN around here but on Baseball Tonight they agreed with Ozzie's rant, that little leaguers are playing better than us, that the organization, city, and players especially should be totally embarrassed.

I'm really starting to get pissed off, I don't wanna be embarrassed to be a White Sox fan, I wanna be proud to be a White Sox fan!!!! :angry::angry:

Yesterday I was in my car and I had the game on, but I had to listen to the Yankee broadcast because only my satellite radio was working, my AM radio antennae is out and I haven't had it fixed yet.

Anyway, I had to listen to Suzyn Waldman as the Yankees scored 8 runs and just before Ozzie gave Contreras the hook, SW said to John Sterling, "Oh, look at the body language of Ozzie Guillen in that dugout! He usually hangs over the rail, now he is sitting back on the bench with his arms folded. He looks like he is going to explode and I bet the White Sox beat writers are putting new batteries in their tape recorders for his after-game press conference, it should be a good one!"

She sure called that.

Viva Medias B's
08-30-2009, 08:56 AM
There is enough blame to go around. The simple fact is at this point the White Sox have played sub-.500 ball since the All-Star break in '06. That can be Ozzie's fault but I think the real blame is with Williams. He put this mess together. Nice move, KW, trade for someone who can't even play. And if he is constrained by ownership, what are we supposed to do? Be like mindless Cub fans and love losing?

I don't blame Ozzie for calling off. I don't know if it will help, but I don't blame him. When this team is failing to execute in the late innings, it is getting beaten to a pulp. The Nationals are better right now. At least they show a little emotion and pride.

If that is a reference to the Peavy trade, we all know that trade was made in terms of the team's long term interests. It was understood from the beginning that anything Peavy provided this year would be a bonus and that his presence in 2010 and beyond is why he was acquired.

kufram
08-30-2009, 09:07 AM
Just as there isn't "one" reason or area why the team is mediocre (at best) there isn't "one" person who gets the blame.

* The players have played poorly again like in 2007.
* Ozzie has made some managerial mistakes
* and Kenny for whatever reason or reasons didn't give him a lot to work with to begin the year. That's a fact. I agree with Voodoo, it put them behind the eight ball right off the bat and could never catch up.

ALL share the blame and embarrassment as well they should.

Lip

I totally agree.

The players, as a team, have to bear the lion's share of the consequences of poor play of late, though.

It is natural to point the finger at one factor and blame that when the entire machine is stalling. I can't blame Ozzie for players making little league mistakes. THAT is embarassing, but I think it has got worse since the trades. Is there a problem in the clubhouse?

Dan H
08-30-2009, 10:25 AM
If that is a reference to the Peavy trade, we all know that trade was made in terms of the team's long term interests. It was understood from the beginning that anything Peavy provided this year would be a bonus and that his presence in 2010 and beyond is why he was acquired.

I understand that the Peavy trade was for the long term interests, but it is still frustrating to acquire a player who can't help a team that so desperately needs his talents now. (And didn't KW insist that 2009 was not a rebuilding year?) I only hope that they don't rush Peavy back. The long term is what we have left now.

voodoochile
08-30-2009, 10:35 AM
I understand that the Peavy trade was for the long term interests, but it is still frustrating to acquire a player who can't help a team that so desperately needs his talents now. (And didn't KW insist that 2009 was not a rebuilding year?) I only hope that they don't rush Peavy back. The long term is what we have left now.

Peavy was on track to return this season. In fact he was supposed to start later this week. He had a fluke happen when he got hit on the elbow by a line drive in his last start and it set him back. Now with the team falling out, there doesn't seem to be the urgency to get him back.

Maybe he doesn't return at all, but none of the reports that have come out have said his ankle wasn't holding up just fine and that what was needed was time to work up his pitching arm until he got hit that is.

Let's not ignore these facts in our rush to condemn KW.

tstrike2000
08-30-2009, 10:51 AM
I feel I am looking at the situation objectively. I believe this is a .500 baseball team. They will finish between 78 and 82 wins, IMO. I've said that all year.

I've talked to a few people this year about this and have said the same thing. Not even counting the offensive inconsistancies, end of the rotation and defense alone pretty much make us a .500 team. It's almost essentially the '98, '99, and '02 teams, somewhere in that range.

ode to veeck
08-30-2009, 10:51 AM
Peavy was on track to return this season. In fact he was supposed to start later this week. He had a fluke happen when he got hit on the elbow by a line drive in his last start and it set him back. Now with the team falling out, there doesn't seem to be the urgency to get him back.

Maybe he doesn't return at all, but none of the reports that have come out have said his ankle wasn't holding up just fine and that what was needed was time to work up his pitching arm until he got hit that is.

Let's not ignore these facts in our rush to condemn KW.


And we knew this trade would start to cause a significant hole in the pitching staff, with Richard posting more than a few very decent starts and also capable from the pen as well as losing a prospect who was also starting to be used early to spell the pen... the holes lead to some tough games where the SP gets blown out or the pen which is very stretched to cover that we only have maybe 3.5 decent starters, is showing consistent signs of overuse. It's a great trade for 2010 and beyond, but KW clearly had the mind of having a 4th solid start for late Aug/Sept to overtake the Kittens as well, based on the temporary "hole" but back for the stretch drive gamble. Beckham has gotten better at 3rd on D (still room to keep coming there) as has our Getz/Nix pair at 2B but Alexi remains an enigma at SS ib D, he is starting to agressively playt some balls he wasn't earlier but still making far too many mistakes and generally still appears mentally lapse.

Tragg
08-30-2009, 10:55 AM
Yet somehow we are second in the league in ERA...the pitching is not the real problem, it is the offense and defense.

Is it mere coincidence that the one real professional coach on Guillen's staff is the pitching coach, while most of the rest of the staff consists of sidekicks and yes-men?
A stronger staff would probably help the team overcome the manager's chief weakness: talent evaluation.

I know that Guillen isn't going anywhere, and I know many give him a lifetime exemption for 2005, but he's managing a high-payroll talented team; and under his leadership, the team has seriouisly underperformed in 2 of the last 3 years. 2007 was a joke (and wasn't simply the result of injuires) and the team is tanking this year in the heat of a race.
Williams needs to do a thorough review of this team, and some changes need to be made.

voodoochile
08-30-2009, 10:58 AM
Is it mere coincidence that the one real professional coach on Guillen's staff is the pitching coach, while most of the rest of the staff consists of sidekicks and yes-men?
A stronger staff would probably help the team overcome the manager's chief weakness: talent evaluation.

How the heck can you state that with such authority? I mean what clue do you have about the inner workings of the coaching staff? I'm just curious where you get your information from.

parlaycard
08-30-2009, 11:09 AM
I'm afraid that Ozzie's job might be in jeopardy. The Sox look so good on paper but are seriously under-performing. A lot of managers have been fired for that reason.

The Sox could have lost 100 games this season.


Ozzies job would not be in jeopardy.

Reinsdorf is too loyal. Ozzie helped bring a championship here. He isnt getting fired, EVER

He might quit, or retire when his contract is up, but he is not getting fired.

soxfan43
08-30-2009, 11:23 AM
This thread is hilarious. The blame goes all around the organization. With JR's supposed directive to cut payroll due to the economy and some of the huge contracts that were left, Kenny and Ozzie didn't have much to work with this season. Of course he said the Sox would be contenders, how could he not? But I think Kenny had 2010 in his sights since the end of last season while still fielding a decent team in 2009. Cut payroll with Swish and Javy, acquire some more prospects to use here or in trades, let a few more youngsters get a chance to play like Beckham and Getz and let the huge contracts of Jose, Dye, Thome and even Dotel and MacDougal finally expire. That flexibility let him acqure Peavy and Rios. Peavy makes the staff pretty damn good for the next few years and Rios at leasts gives you cost certainty in CF with hopefully some good seasons. They still should have some money left over to go out this winter and bring in some more talent. Maybe they try to move Paulie, maybe the rumors of them moving Jenks will come true. Either way they have a lot of options to add to the core of this team. Really to me the only really bad move Kenny's made in the last year or so is giving up Paulie's replacement for Pena.

2009 is turning out how most people predicted I think. Contending for the division most of the year with extreme hot and cold spells on offense to go along with a couple of holes in the back end of the rotation. I don't think there were too many Sox fans in April looking at this team and thinking dominant World Series contender. It's disapointing how they are finishing but this will just give Kenny more free reign to break up this old group without as much backlash from the fans who love Paulie, Dye, Thome, etc. So while I am disapointed right now with this team, I am hopefull and excited about what Kenny will do this winter.

TornLabrum
08-30-2009, 11:48 AM
I don't know how anybody could be disappointed as to how things turned out. We started the year with question marks at best in center field (Wise and Anderson? Youve got to be kidding!), left field (with TCQ coming off an injury), third base (Josh Fields), the middle infield (with Ramirez changing positions and a rookie in Getz at second base), and the fourth and fifth slots in the starting rotation. Then there was the little matter of the defense being really weak.

I was so impressed with this team that I bought tickets for four whole games and three of those tickets were for games with the Pirates and Royals because I figured we could at least beat them, and we've lost both of the games I've been to so far. (Who woulda thunk that my Rays ticket would be Buehrle's perfect game?) I told anybody who asked my opinion that we were going nowhere this year.

The Sox were less than mediocre starting the season and they played mediocre ball until a week or so ago when the collapse began. Anybody with any judgment about baseball talent could have seen this coming a mile away. We had a team with a decent enough bullpen, three good starters, and a bunch of streak hitters. A few decent pickups along the way helped, but this was a fundamentally weak team.

SI1020
08-30-2009, 11:53 AM
No Stengel was an ave manager, but he had the horses.
Winning a World Series when you don't have all the horses is an accomplishment. I disagree, Stengel was a good manager. It's true his record was less than stellar before and after his tenure with the Yanks. He knew how to move those chess pieces around, and wasn't afraid to go with his hunches. He was not hampered by any "book" that dictated every move, like so many today. I didn't think he was the equal of Lopez, who had to scuffle and rely on strategy more. I really hated the Yankees when I was a kid, but had a grudging respect for the Old Perfessor and his eccentric quotable personality.

ode to veeck
08-30-2009, 12:14 PM
I disagree, Stengel was a good manager. It's true his record was less than stellar before and after his tenure with the Yanks. He knew how to move those chess pieces around, and wasn't afraid to go with his hunches. He was not hampered by any "book" that dictated every move, like so many today. I didn't think he was the equal of Lopez, who had to scuffle and rely on strategy more. I really hated the Yankees when I was a kid, but had a grudging respect for the Old Perfessor and his eccentric quotable personality.

I still hate the Yankees, making yesterday's most dismal performance of the year ever more painful. Fortunately, it is only one of more than 160 games. Sure the Sox have been a dissappointment the last couple of weeks, but overall I agree with Hal, it has been a very entertaining season with some key gaps filling in nicely, another starter, an all-star rookie at 3rd, and a CF. The kids are all right; they just sucked this week.

fuzzy_patters
08-30-2009, 12:19 PM
I still hate the Yankees, making yesterday's most dismal performance of the year ever more painful. Fortunately, it is only one of more than 160 games. Sure the Sox have been a dissappointment the last couple of weeks, but overall I agree with Hal, it has been a very entertaining season with some key gaps filling in nicely, another starter, an all-star rookie at 3rd, and a CF. The kids are all right; they just sucked this week.

We have done what few can do. We have stayed in contention until late summer while adding in some youth. We should be set up well for next year, and we didn't have to sacrifice a season to do it.

hawkjt
08-30-2009, 12:35 PM
I have defended Kenny thruout the season as having anticipated the downturn in the economy last fall/winter and slashing payroll at the right time to put himself in position to take advantage of teams like the Jays and Padres later this summer who now need to slash payroll.

I still feel that way. Kenny is a big picture guy while trying to win every year,and with our expiring contracts, with our rotation, and with an economy that will start improving next year, he has set the Sox up well again to pick up some more talent. He has mixed in cheap talent(Carlos,Alexei,Gordo,Getz,Nix) to balance out the big contracts. He has beefed up the farm system.
The only thing he could not control was the total collapse of our offense since the All star break....sure, maybe he should not have brought back JD,Thome,PK, ect who have hit for crap the last 6 weeks, but then what?

Baseball Prospectus had us at 72 wins in the preseason. We have picked up Rios and Peavy who have contributed nothing. So, on paper, if we win more than 72, we are beating expectations.

I think the Sox can still get back in this. Win today, take 2 of 3 from the twins, beat the cubs, and come home for revenge vs the Carmines 3 back of the tigers and ahead of the Twins....3 back with 27 to go? Not out of it with 6 of nine at home vs Tigers and Twins.

Tragg
08-30-2009, 03:45 PM
How the heck can you state that with such authority? I mean what clue do you have about the inner workings of the coaching staff? I'm just curious where you get your information from.
It's my opinion. Just like some people had the opinion that Richard wasn't a major league pitcher, my opinion is that this isn't a great coaching staff and that Guillen would be served by a stronger one.
I've never claimed that my opinions are anything more than that. Based on observation.
Wise (and a leadoff hitter), Owens (Quentin an Missle on the Bench or in AAA), Erstad, Bukvich, da da, da da. And we have a new candidate: Williams.

fuzzy_patters
08-30-2009, 05:29 PM
It's my opinion. Just like some people had the opinion that Richard wasn't a major league pitcher, my opinion is that this isn't a great coaching staff and that Guillen would be served by a stronger one.
I've never claimed that my opinions are anything more than that. Based on observation.
Wise (and a leadoff hitter), Owens (Quentin an Missle on the Bench or in AAA), Erstad, Bukvich, da da, da da. And we have a new candidate: Williams.

What does your post even mean? Are you implying that the fact that our coaches were saddled with ****ty players like Bukvich and Williams means that we have a ****ty coaching staff? You could blame the GM, but it is hardly the coaches fault if they don't get anything to work with.

Hitmen77
08-30-2009, 06:20 PM
The problem going in, and this has been brought up alot this year, is that we had a viable alternative, his name was Javier Vazquez. He was traded away for prospects, and was not replaced. It is a testament to the rest of this team that they are even in the ballpark of .500 baseball. Kenny hoped that Contreras and Colon could fix their broken selves and return to an earlier form. It hasn't worked out. Clayton Richard showed some promise, but was traded away for an injured Jake Peavey, yet to play. That trade alone has caused much of this pitching staff burnout of late.

This has been a very disappointing season, I only hope that they can save face and make things interesting the final month of the season.

I agree that expecting Contreras/Colon/Marquez/Richard to fill the hole left by Vazquez was foolish. Even with his mediocre ways, Javy would have likely netted us a few more wins. Up until a week ago, this may have been enough to put us in 1st place.

However, given the way this team has imploded, Javy's presence wouldn't have made a difference. It still is very likely a good move for next year and beyond that we unloaded his salary. If we kept Javy, maybe the Sox would decide they don't have room on their payroll to get either Peavy or Rios. I'll take Peavy+Rios over Javy+Richard for 2010. In addition, prospect Tyler Flowers (we got him in the Javy trade) may someday be a good addition to this team.

Dan H
08-30-2009, 06:55 PM
Peavy was on track to return this season. In fact he was supposed to start later this week. He had a fluke happen when he got hit on the elbow by a line drive in his last start and it set him back. Now with the team falling out, there doesn't seem to be the urgency to get him back.

Maybe he doesn't return at all, but none of the reports that have come out have said his ankle wasn't holding up just fine and that what was needed was time to work up his pitching arm until he got hit that is.

Let's not ignore these facts in our rush to condemn KW.

I am not rushing to condemn anyone. No matter how good Peavy may turn out to be, I still thought it was odd to trade for someone who couldn't contribute immediately.

Most feel Williams will make some signficant moves during the offseason. I hope he will because the rebuilding has to continue. This club has some big problems.

kitekrazy
08-30-2009, 08:24 PM
I am not rushing to condemn anyone. No matter how good Peavy may turn out to be, I still thought it was odd to trade for someone who couldn't contribute immediately.


The price was better for Kenny.

LoveYourSuit
08-30-2009, 08:32 PM
I am not rushing to condemn anyone. No matter how good Peavy may turn out to be, I still thought it was odd to trade for someone who couldn't contribute immediately.

Most feel Williams will make some signficant moves during the offseason. I hope he will because the rebuilding has to continue. This club has some big problems.

If by significant you mean unloading a few veterans, then I agree.

I don't see the Sox making other splashy moves this offseason unless these pending season ticket renewals are a huge success. Doesn't look good right now because one is to expect many folks will not be renewing based on the results of this season.

SBSoxFan
08-31-2009, 06:28 AM
Making a comment like that, makes it kind of difficult to take the rest of your comments seriously.

What's not to take seriously? KW said as much himself --- win, and there will be room (and money) for everyone. There's still a month to go, but Dye has played himself off the 2010 Sox' roster to this point.