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View Full Version : Dan Helpingstine Hearts the Cubs


Dan H
08-29-2009, 04:05 PM
If I'm Kenny, it's table flipping time.

Maybe Kenny should flip his own table since a lot of this is his fault. He was telling us at the beginning of the year that we could get by with Contreras and Colon. Colon has become a missing person and we wish Contreras would join him. In my mind, Kenny has one year to clean up this mess. If he can't, he, Ozzie and the rest can be sent packing. This team is an absolute embarrassment. Reinsdorf can go too. The Cubs are better. At least they can get more than one hit in a game.

whitesoxfan
08-29-2009, 04:07 PM
Maybe Kenny should flip his own table since a lot of this is his fault. He was telling us at the beginning of the year that we could get by with Contreras and Colon. Colon has become a missing person and we wish Contreras would join him. In my mind, Kenny has one year to clean up this mess. If he can't, he, Ozzie and the rest can be sent packing. This team is an absolute embarrassment. Reinsdorf can go too. The Cubs are better. At least they can get more than one hit in a game.

Who the **** cares about the Cubs?

soltrain21
08-29-2009, 04:07 PM
Maybe Kenny should flip his own table since a lot of this is his fault. He was telling us at the beginning of the year that we could get by with Contreras and Colon. Colon has become a missing person and we wish Contreras would join him. In my mind, Kenny has one year to clean up this mess. If he can't, he, Ozzie and the rest can be sent packing. This team is an absolute embarrassment. Reinsdorf can go too. The Cubs are better. At least they can get more than one hit in a game.


Easily the dumbest thing I've ever read on this site. We are obviously better than the Rays since they got a perfect game thrown on them.

And as for Reinsdorf going? Give me a ****ing break.

WhiteSox1989
08-29-2009, 04:08 PM
Maybe Kenny should flip his own table since a lot of this is his fault. He was telling us at the beginning of the year that we could get by with Contreras and Colon. Colon has become a missing person and we wish Contreras would join him. In my mind, Kenny has one year to clean up this mess. If he can't, he, Ozzie and the rest can be sent packing. This team is an absolute embarrassment. Reinsdorf can go too. The Cubs are better. At least they can get more than one hit in a game.
I made this point to my brother. I like Kenny, and I think he makes a lot of VERY smart moves. But he should have gotten starting pitching before it was too late. I don't see HOW he thought Colon and Contreras would both last, let alone one.

Edit: I disagree strongly with the rest of your post.

Brian26
08-29-2009, 04:09 PM
Maybe Kenny should flip his own table since a lot of this is his fault. He was telling us at the beginning of the year that we could get by with Contreras and Colon. Colon has become a missing person and we wish Contreras would join him. In my mind, Kenny has one year to clean up this mess. If he can't, he, Ozzie and the rest can be sent packing. This team is an absolute embarrassment. Reinsdorf can go too. The Cubs are better. At least they can get more than one hit in a game.

A tad bit of an over-reaction, don't you think?

Borderline :dtroll: for the "Reinsdorf can go too" comment. The owner that just took on six gazillion dollars in guaranteed contracts with Peavy and Rios? Yeah, right.

This is on under-achieving players.

Dick Allen
08-29-2009, 04:35 PM
Maybe Kenny should flip his own table since a lot of this is his fault. He was telling us at the beginning of the year that we could get by with Contreras and Colon. Colon has become a missing person and we wish Contreras would join him. In my mind, Kenny has one year to clean up this mess. If he can't, he, Ozzie and the rest can be sent packing. This team is an absolute embarrassment. Reinsdorf can go too. The Cubs are better. At least they can get more than one hit in a game.The Cubs just lost two out of three at home to the godawful Nationals. You may want to re-think that.

Soxfanspcu11
08-29-2009, 05:12 PM
Although I totally disagree with most of what this guy is saying, I understand his frustration. It is hard for me to not want to post things like this, even if I dont mean what I'm saying just to vent a little bit.

I can't even remember how many times I have said to myself, "**** the Sox!! I'm so done with watching them this year! I love this team and this is how they repay me! They can all go **** themselves! I'm done with this garbage!"

But of course, I dont really mean that, it's just that I'm so pissed at the time. And the way things are going now, I would imagine that a lot of other people are just as pissed.

I have no idea if the original poster here is in the same boat or not but if he is just venting, then I can understand it. Although, when I vent, I at least try and keep it somewhat in perspective, even though I admit I have gone overboard before, but only a time or 2. :tongue:

slavko
08-29-2009, 06:35 PM
The Cubs just lost two out of three at home to the godawful Nationals. You may want to re-think that.

Those Nats looked alive! in that Cub series. And when a team looks alive, it doesn't look godawful. We, on the other hand, looked godawful today.

SI1020
08-29-2009, 07:13 PM
As an older Sox fan I fully understand the frustration and each individual sentiment expressed. I also think that calling this poster or troll or borderline or whatever is unwarranted. When you invest the time and energy this poster has over the years you deserve a little slack.

Lip Man 1
08-29-2009, 09:12 PM
Especially since he's published three books on the franchise with a fourth coming out this upcoming spring.

Lip

Noneck
08-29-2009, 09:21 PM
Especially since he's published three books on the franchise with a fourth coming out this upcoming spring.

Lip


Lip,

Enlighten me on this mans work, one of this authors comments above, makes me want to read some of his works.

Woofer
08-29-2009, 09:30 PM
I've got his books, they are excellent. Two of them that I have lying around are Chicago White Sox: 1959 and Beyond, and also South Side Hitmen : The Story of the 1977 Chicago White Sox. Not only is it really interesting reading, many of the pictures are beyond cool.

Noneck
08-29-2009, 09:34 PM
I've got his books, they are excellent. Two of them that I have lying around are Chicago White Sox: 1959 and Beyond, and also South Side Hitmen : The Story of the 1977 Chicago White Sox. Not only is it really interesting reading, many of the pictures are beyond cool.

Anything recent? How far does the 1959 and Beyond go?

Woofer
08-29-2009, 09:55 PM
Anything recent? How far does the 1959 and Beyond go?


It was published in 2004, most of the book covers the 60's through the end of the White Sox time at old Comiskey Park.

Brian26
08-29-2009, 10:15 PM
As an older Sox fan I fully understand the frustration and each individual sentiment expressed. I also think that calling this poster or troll or borderline or whatever is unwarranted. When you invest the time and energy this poster has over the years you deserve a little slack.

I'm well aware of who the original poster is, which makes his overly-dramatic, Reinsdorf-hating comments even more embarrassing and uncalled for.

DrCrawdad
08-29-2009, 10:18 PM
Here you go. (http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/8/29/1007315/foxy-day-jake-foxs-slam-5-rbi-lead)

TommyJohn
08-29-2009, 10:59 PM
I'm well aware of who the original poster is, which makes his overly-dramatic, Reinsdorf-hating comments even more embarrassing and uncalled for.
Dan is an accomplished author and that is great, but you are right about his penchant for melodrama. He once said that the 2006 White Sox were more embarrassing than the 1970 White Sox-a team that went 90-72, drew 2.9 million fans and defended this city's first baseball world championship since my late grandparents were toddlers was more embarrassing than a team that went 56-106, finished miles out of first, couldn't draw even 500,000 for the season and couldn't find a radio station to broadcast their games after it? Come on! And it seems that every three game losing streak is the Second Coming of the 1970 Sox.

I know sometimes emotions get the better of you, it has happened to me, (read my signature) and I own up to that. But sometimes it is just too much to take.

DSpivack
08-30-2009, 12:41 AM
I'm well aware of who the original poster is, which makes his overly-dramatic, Reinsdorf-hating comments even more embarrassing and uncalled for.

I seriously don't get how any Chicago sports fan could hate Jerry Reinsdorf. His ownership has overseen 7 championships in Chicago! Without him, then our last title is the '85 Bears, and the other two teams have the longest droughts in their sport. Obviously his ownership groups aren't perfect, but they're clearly better than anyone else in town.

DumpJerry
08-30-2009, 10:22 AM
I seriously don't get how any Chicago sports fan could hate Jerry Reinsdorf. His ownership has overseen 7 championships in Chicago! Without him, then our last title is the '85 Bears, and the other two teams have the longest droughts in their sport. Obviously his ownership groups aren't perfect, but they're clearly better than anyone else in town.
Michael Jordan was drafted before Reiny bought the Bulls. He was signed shortly after Uncle Jerry bought the team, but he had nothing to do with the drafting of MJ.

Noneck
08-30-2009, 10:25 AM
Michael Jordan was drafted before Reiny bought the Bulls. He was signed shortly after Uncle Jerry bought the team, but he had nothing to do with the drafting of MJ.

And signing a draft choice is no major accomplishment.

voodoochile
08-30-2009, 10:52 AM
Michael Jordan was drafted before Reiny bought the Bulls. He was signed shortly after Uncle Jerry bought the team, but he had nothing to do with the drafting of MJ.

And signing a draft choice is no major accomplishment.

This is a simply silly argument. JR kept MJ for the rest of his prime tenure in the NBA. He authorized $30M+ yearly salaries during the final 3-peat and gave Krause the freedom to build the rest of the team around MJ. MJ alone doesn't win a championship. We all saw that. We saw the failures when there wasn't the talent to surround MJ and the coach to convince him it was okay to pass and not try to do it all himself.

Yes, JR lucked into MJ. But everything else that happened JR presided over. He continued to pay MJ during his first "retirement" which allowed the team to maintain control and then didn't balk when the time came to dish out the big bucks and that's why the city has 6 Bulls' titles instead of 3.

Brian26
08-30-2009, 10:55 AM
Michael Jordan was drafted before Reiny bought the Bulls. He was signed shortly after Uncle Jerry bought the team, but he had nothing to do with the drafting of MJ.

Can you imagine if Bill Veeck had lived and purchased the Bulls instead of Jerry?

Jordan would have had three great years in Chicago before Veeck traded him to the Knicks for financial reasons in exchange for a couple of 35-year-old one-year rent-a-players who would leave to free agency the next year after putting up decent numbers. It would have been Jordan in exchange for one year of Bernard King and Rory Sparrow.

Then 20 years later, people could write books and lament on how close we came to making the NBA playoffs in that great '86-'87 season. Those were the days.

Noneck
08-30-2009, 11:08 AM
Yes, JR lucked into MJ. But everything else that happened JR presided over. He continued to pay MJ during his first "retirement" which allowed the team to maintain control and then didn't balk when the time came to dish out the big bucks and that's why the city has 6 Bulls' titles instead of 3.

You do realize that Jordan was getting didley squat money during this time. Kukoc, Ron Harper money.

jabrch
08-30-2009, 11:12 AM
What Chicago ownerships aren't hated? Maybe Rocky Wirtz - but that's because the bar was set so low by Bill. Trib...hated Reinsdorf...hated... McCaskey...hated.

I think a large part of it is jealousy. Many fans (at least those knowledgeable) are sure that they could do better if they just owned the team. Thus, failure to win every year is hated. Add on the dislike most have for the extremely wealthy (which we are talking about here) and a small bit of jealousy...

That doesn't make it right.

JR has been good for this franchise. Say what you want, but it is healthy and thriving here in Chicago, while competing against the Cubs. That's much better than the options.

voodoochile
08-30-2009, 11:14 AM
You do realize that Jordon was getting didley squat money during this time. Kukoc, Ron Harper money.

$4M/year to flail wildly at sliders down and outside isn't peanuts.

Either way, JR still continued to pay the contract. When MJ retired he could have said, "**** it" and stopped paying. He didn't and when MJ returned he was still under contract and thus could rejoin the team without having to sign. That in turn opened the door for JR to pay the huge contracts he signed over the next 3 years. Those figures remain the single largest one year salaries for any athlete in the history of sports.

JR got lucky. Then JR took that luck and built on it. It's simply silly to rip on him for that fact.

Noneck
08-30-2009, 11:22 AM
JR got lucky. Then JR took that luck and built on it. It's simply silly to rip on him for that fact.

That 4m was probably Jordans cheapest endorsement. The chairman had a bargain of a lifetime.

I don't think anyone here is saying that he isn't one shrewd businessman and the knocks about him are not about that.

voodoochile
08-30-2009, 11:34 AM
That 4m was probably Jordans cheapest endorsement. The chairman had a bargain of a lifetime.

I don't think anyone here is saying that he isn't one shrewd businessman and the knocks about him are not about that.

Jordan signed the contract, then walked away and still got paid. Then signed the biggest deals in the history of sports. You keep moving the goal posts obviously in some attempt to say, it's all about MJ and JR was simply a bystander and thus gets no credit at all for the 6 (count them 6) world championships his team won.

He got lucky to get Jordan... He kept Jordan and paid him even when he was no longer honoring the contract he signed.

That contract was for peanuts... It was $4M per year.

That's less than he made in any of his endorsements... Jordan signed the contract at a time when salaries were much lower in the NBA AND when he was still Bulls' "property". Then walked away and still got paid to pursue a baseball fantasy which JR allowed him to fulfill with the professional baseball franchise JR owned.

BOOOO, JR! BOOOOOO!:rolleyes:

It's ****ing ridiculous the lengths some people will go to to rip on JR.

white sox bill
08-30-2009, 11:34 AM
I too, have one of Dan's books. He signed it personally. I feel his pain. We all overreact at times. A few "Hail Mary's" and your forgiven Dan!:smile:

Noneck
08-30-2009, 11:48 AM
Jordan signed the contract, then walked away and still got paid. Then signed the biggest deals in the history of sports. You keep moving the goal posts obviously in some attempt to say, it's all about MJ and JR was simply a bystander and thus gets no credit at all for the 6 (count them 6) world championships his team won.

He got lucky to get Jordan... He kept Jordan and paid him even when he was no longer honoring the contract he signed.

That contract was for peanuts... It was $4M per year.

That's less than he made in any of his endorsements... Jordan signed the contract at a time when salaries were much lower in the NBA AND when he was still Bulls' "property". Then walked away and still got paid to pursue a baseball fantasy which JR allowed him to fulfill with the professional baseball franchise JR owned.

BOOOO, JR! BOOOOOO!:rolleyes:

It's ****ing ridiculous the lengths some people will go to to rip on JR.

Comeon, That 4m was to promote the Sox and the Bulls. Which was the great deal. Dont make it seem like that was one bold move and entitles JR to get all credit for the 6 Bulls championships. The championships go to Jordan and the luck that Sam Bowie was drafted before him.

PatK
08-30-2009, 12:14 PM
If a crappy owner is someone that brings a city 6 NBA and 1 MLB titles, can we get another crappy owner to buy the Bears?

voodoochile
08-30-2009, 12:14 PM
Comeon, That 4m was to promote the Sox and the Bulls. Which was the great deal. Dont make it seem like that was one bold move and entitles JR to get all credit for the 6 Bulls championships. The championships go to Jordan and the luck that Sam Bowie was drafted before him.

Whatever...

cards press box
08-30-2009, 12:26 PM
Maybe Kenny should flip his own table since a lot of this is his fault. He was telling us at the beginning of the year that we could get by with Contreras and Colon. Colon has become a missing person and we wish Contreras would join him. In my mind, Kenny has one year to clean up this mess. If he can't, he, Ozzie and the rest can be sent packing. This team is an absolute embarrassment. Reinsdorf can go too. The Cubs are better. At least they can get more than one hit in a game.

Fortunately, the Sox management takes a long view of things and does not let themselves get caught up in the emotions of the moment. Ken Williams has shown that he has historical perspective and is willing to look beyond the next three innings, the next 3 days or the next 30 days. To answer your question: no, the Cubs are not better. They are not even close to the Sox -- that is, if we stop fixating of the failings of the 2009 Sox, a team in transition, and look to the future. Seriously, what is the Cubs' plan beyond this year? I don't think they have one with regard to: (i) the major league club, (ii) the minor league club, (iii) the front office or (iv) the on field management. The Cubs might have new ownership by the end of the year but that's probably not a cinch, either. The window on the era of D. Lee, A. Ramirez and Soriano is starting to close. The window on the Sox' era of Beckham, John Danks, Floyd, Quentin and more talent in the minors (i.e., Jordan Danks, Tyler Flowers, Dan Hudson) has hardly begun to open.

The Sox' youth are going through growing pains and the veteran stopgaps they brought in the hold down the fort until the kids were ready didn't pan out. No big deal. For the next decade, the Sox are well positioned. They will be fine.

Trav
08-30-2009, 03:52 PM
I seriously don't get how any Chicago sports fan could hate Jerry Reinsdorf..

On principle it is easy.

russ99
08-30-2009, 04:07 PM
What Chicago ownerships aren't hated? Maybe Rocky Wirtz - but that's because the bar was set so low by Bill. Trib...hated Reinsdorf...hated... McCaskey...hated.

I think a large part of it is jealousy. Many fans (at least those knowledgeable) are sure that they could do better if they just owned the team. Thus, failure to win every year is hated. Add on the dislike most have for the extremely wealthy (which we are talking about here) and a small bit of jealousy...

That doesn't make it right.

JR has been good for this franchise. Say what you want, but it is healthy and thriving here in Chicago, while competing against the Cubs. That's
much better than the options.

Let's just say there's been three phases of Jerry where the Sox are concerned:

The years right after he acquired the Sox, where he went all in to bring the fans out to the park

1985-2000 Jerry where money was the main factor in every decision, his leadership role bringing on the strike, White Flag Trade and a lot of bad baseball.

2000-current "Go for it" Jerry.

"Go for it" Jerry's been great, but let's not have a short memory about the previous era. Any backsliding like this last season's payroll purge brings up warning signals in my mind, but Jerry's back in my good graces over Peavy & Rios.

jabrch
08-30-2009, 04:45 PM
1985-2000 Jerry where money was the main factor in every decision, his leadership role bringing on the strike, White Flag Trade and a lot of bad baseball.


I don't agree that this existed. You can see another side to the coin of each of those decisions you refer to, and many more.

Lip Man 1
08-30-2009, 05:25 PM
Jab:

For what it's worth, every person I interviewed in that time period from players like Jack McDowell to announcers like Joe McConnell to the newspaper guys that were around then say money was the single biggest factor in JR's take on things...from threatening to move the club, to his participation in the collusion tactics of the 80's (which Fay Vincent claims in his book was the direct result of JR and Selig) to the White Flag Trade to not being willing to try to upgrade talent after the 83 and 84 seasons to the way he dealt with free agents.

There does seem to be some consensus on this point again at least from what I've been told. Not saying it was the only reason, certainly not, but it was the biggest.

Russ's comment is well thought out.

Lip