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View Full Version : What's it going to take for Greg Walker to get fired?


whitesoxfan
08-29-2009, 01:59 AM
Enough's enough already. People can argue all about how hitting coaches are irrelevant, but I've seen enough of this inconsistency from the Sox since the second half of 2006. The inconsistency in the second half of that year cost our guys a playoff spot (as well as bad pitching) and it looks like they're well on their way to doing the same thing this year.

I don't get how this guy's still employed. They struggled not only in the 2nd half of 06, but for the whole season in 2007, the first month and a half last year and bits and pieces for the rest of the year and we all know how inconsistent they've been this year. Look, I realize that there's more problems besides the hitting coach with this team. I'm trying to be as rational as I can be. But in a year like this, someone has to be the fall guy. I'm thinking if Walker doesn't get canned this season, he apparently will collect a paycheck from the White Sox for the rest of his life.

Again these guys are professional hitters but if that's the case, what exactly is a hitting coach there to do? Just to sit on his ass and watch the game from the best seat in the house? I wish I could have that gig. All I know is that this team hacks at the first pitch a LOT and they make opposing pitchers' lives a lot easier.

Thoughts on the guy that's seemingly impossible to get rid of?

Hosey22
08-29-2009, 02:20 AM
I agree 100 %. I'm sorry I know these guys are professional ballplayers and that there is only so much a hitting coach can do but he's not even doing that. Quite frankly he never has. And yeah if they start tearing it up at the plate tomorrow usually the issue of "fire the hitting coach" goes away for a while but Walker has been a waste of space on that bench for four years. This has been an under-achieving offense for as long as I can remember.

I never see any adjustments with this ballclub. When we struggle as a team against a pitcher one would think some kind of adjustment would follow; mindset, approach, shortening swings, going the other way. But I never see that. Even when an individual player struggles like Carlos did early in the season before he was injured, the same rules apply. Yet game after game he made the same mistakes. I've seen it too much with this team over the last few years to think every time it is simply the player refusing to adjust. I think Walker is mentally lazy when it comes to approaching a ballgame and it translates to the rest of the players. His casual approach doesn't work and I'm sick of this organization sticking by him because he's a good guy and was a good ballplayer. It's time to wise up and move on.

Coolpapa
08-29-2009, 05:14 AM
Bring #72

TheBigHurtST
08-29-2009, 06:21 AM
I agree. I got banned for a year during a discussion about this on another Sox board, lol.

Walker may not be directly responsible for every fault with this club, but you have to think there's something wrong there. There has to be some responsibility there when a lineup half-full of veterans is practically dead in terms of batting IQ for numerous years now and doesn't seem to change. They also seem to be mostly clueless in terms of base-running as well.

Jurr
08-29-2009, 07:17 AM
I used to think that the hitting coach wasn't a big deal until I took a golf lesson. When a sport involves such a vast amount of mechanics, a coach is critical that can A.)see and fix problems and B.)communicate effectively to get the student to make the mechanical adjustment.

I do feel that the quality of players on this offense is not elite. Konerko, Dye, and (especially) Thome are past their respective primes. When the team becomes a bit more athletic next year, we may see more consistent production. I am SICK AND TIRED of this "homer or nothing" crap.

I honestly believe the WS victory saved Walker's job 3 or 4 times so far. We won a ring with Walker...it can't be his fault. Pfft.

wassagstdu
08-29-2009, 07:19 AM
The other day Hawk was talking about how Walker worked with Anderson every day and how he absorbed all of the lessons in BP but once in the game it all went out the window and he reverted. That makes me think what Walker does is to get hitters thinking too much and paying too much attention to mechanics. And that is not sustainable under game pressure. Pods was doing a dance in the batter's box to keep himself from thinking too much.

Right now my fear is that Walker will change Beckham from a natural see-the-ball-hit-the-ball hitter into a typical White Sox mental hitter.

ike from nj
08-29-2009, 07:59 AM
why did walt hriniak leave the sox in 1996?

soxrme
08-29-2009, 08:22 AM
Two guys thrown out at home on stupid decisions by the 3rd base coach. You are after the wrong guy!!

DumpJerry
08-29-2009, 08:28 AM
Yeah, firing the hitting coach works wonders.

Look at what it did for the Cubs this year.:rolleyes:

southside rocks
08-29-2009, 08:48 AM
Yeah, firing the hitting coach works wonders.

Look at what it did for the Cubs this year.:rolleyes:

Exactly my thoughts when I read the OP.

And why isn't Cooper being shown the door for the horrendous bullpen performances lately?

Scapegoating doesn't make things work the way they should and it's a sign of desperation and general cluelessness. Which is fine on an internet board but not so fine in team management.

tstrike2000
08-29-2009, 09:01 AM
It's a pretty futal argument. The Sox aren't going to fire Walker anytime soon unless Williams decides he needs to overhaul the coaching staff. Personally, I've never cared for Walker as a hitting instructor, but the Sox now have bigger issues at hand with what to do with some of the veterans in the offseason, leadoff, pitching, etc.

russ99
08-29-2009, 09:21 AM
It's a pretty futal argument. The Sox aren't going to fire Walker anytime soon unless Williams decides he needs to overhaul the coaching staff. Personally, I've never cared for Walker as a hitting instructor, but the Sox now have bigger issues at hand with what to do with some of the veterans in the offseason, leadoff, pitching, etc.

Well that's the thing. If the Sox fade the last month of the season, Kenny will be very displeased considering the commitment he's made this year. I can totally see some kind of offseason coachng shake-up.

Otherwise, if it were left up to Ozzie, Walker would leave when he leaves.

BubblingCalderon
08-29-2009, 09:31 AM
A couple teams have 2 hitting coaches, specifically the Dodgers. When we played the Dodgers Hawk went on and on about how great an idea that is because players would get more individual attention. You can have a hitting coach who works with HR hitters and another working with your line drive hitters. I'm sure hitting coaches don't make that much why not employ more than one.

Craig Grebeck
08-29-2009, 09:37 AM
Yeah, firing the hitting coach works wonders.

Look at what it did for the Cubs this year.:rolleyes:
That is a piss-poor argument. Keeping Walker around seems complacent.

johnnyg83
08-29-2009, 10:03 AM
He may not be the cause, but he sure as hell ain't the solution.

DumpJerry
08-29-2009, 10:23 AM
That is a piss-poor argument. Keeping Walker around seems complacent.
Care to explain, if possible?

BainesHOF
08-29-2009, 10:23 AM
Walker needs to go. This team has the dumbest approach to hitting in the league, and it never improves. In fact, it's gotten worse. It's one thing to see Carlos Quentin always swing for the fences, and that's been awful, but it's another to see players such as Ramirez and Nix swing like they think they can lead the league in homers. How long to we have to watch this garbage?

Craig Grebeck
08-29-2009, 10:30 AM
Care to explain, if possible?
So since another franchise fired their hitting coach, and thus far it hasn't worked for them, the White Sox shouldn't? That's on par with "my buddy bought a house and his marriage went to hell, therefore my wife and I are apartment-dwellers for life!"

southside rocks
08-29-2009, 10:34 AM
So since another franchise fired their hitting coach, and thus far it hasn't worked for them, the White Sox shouldn't? That's on par with "my buddy bought a house and his marriage went to hell, therefore my wife and I are apartment-dwellers for life!"

No, it's nothing like that.

The assumption is that firing the hitting coach will improve the hitting performance of a team that is not producing.

One team does it, with no good results.

That is not a positive argument for the same course being followed by another team.

Unless, of course, you are claiming that firing the hitting coach and improved performance are as unrelated as home-buying and marital troubles. Makes about as much sense to me, frankly.

Scapegoating is a stupid move made by stupid people and incompetent management. That is why you see it done on the north side of Chicago but not on the south side.

If Walker deserves to lose his job, it will be for reasons completely unknown to people who post on internet boards, and KW will address the situation. But as a scapegoating move, it won't happen.

Zisk77
08-29-2009, 10:39 AM
Ok fine fire Walker. Who do you guys want to replace with? Who would magically change our hitters for the better? come on you guys are the experts. Who?

LITTLE NELL
08-29-2009, 10:56 AM
Part of the problem is our ballpark, its a launching pad and our hitters are always in a HR frame of mind. Our guys except for AJ are for the most part pull hitters. When was the last time you saw a White Sox hit and run. I admit I don't see as many games as most of you because I just see games on WGN, ESPN and Fox but I can't remember 1 hit and run this year. When it comes to hitting we are a one dimensional team.

Madscout
08-29-2009, 10:57 AM
Exactly my thoughts when I read the OP.

And why isn't Cooper being shown the door for the horrendous bullpen performances lately?

Scapegoating doesn't make things work the way they should and it's a sign of desperation and general cluelessness. Which is fine on an internet board but not so fine in team management.
This HR or nothing, hitters underperforming **** has been happening for years.

Coop has taken headcases, and **** and polished them into gold, and there are several examples.

Lip Man 1
08-29-2009, 11:44 AM
Guys:

Kenny has publicly stated he leaves coaching staff decisions to Ozzie, that he doesn't interfere.

He won't step in unless Ozzie tells him to.

Lip

ndgt10
08-29-2009, 11:45 AM
What a great job to have! Get paid and you don't even have to be held accountable! Walker's got it made.

samurai_sox
08-29-2009, 11:59 AM
Yeah, firing the hitting coach works wonders.

Look at what it did for the Cubs this year.:rolleyes:

This Cubs have been a train wreck this year regardless of their hitting coach. Try again.

MarkZ35
08-29-2009, 12:06 PM
He may not be the cause, but he sure as hell ain't the solution.
That is close to my thoughts. You can't blame him for all of the hitting problems but they have been one of the most inconsistent hitting teams for years now. Players are going to slump but they seem to slump much too often. They are professionals and not kids but I don't see many adjustments made. I think enough is enough with Walker.

You can't compare the Sox to the Cubs this year with switching coaches. Von Joshua hasn't even been there that long to make a huge difference and not everytime that you make a change will it work out. I think the Sox are at the point where they have to take a chance.

Ranger
08-29-2009, 12:44 PM
No, it's nothing like that.

The assumption is that firing the hitting coach will improve the hitting performance of a team that is not producing.

One team does it, with no good results.

That is not a positive argument for the same course being followed by another team.

Unless, of course, you are claiming that firing the hitting coach and improved performance are as unrelated as home-buying and marital troubles. Makes about as much sense to me, frankly.

Scapegoating is a stupid move made by stupid people and incompetent management. That is why you see it done on the north side of Chicago but not on the south side.

If Walker deserves to lose his job, it will be for reasons completely unknown to people who post on internet boards, and KW will address the situation. But as a scapegoating move, it won't happen.

This is an excellent post and could not possibly be more correct. Hitting coaches lose their jobs for 2 reasons:

1) He simply is lazy and doesn't do the necessary pre-game work with the players, shows up late (i.e. a certain, former first base coach), etc. And more commonly:
2) When GMs/Managers are afraid of losing their jobs and need to present an image of being "proactive" in trying to fix the issue. This is done to satisfy the public and make them feel like management is "getting to the bottom of the problem." It's quite absurd, actually.

Neither of these two apply to Walker. At least, I don't believe they would fire him as a scapegoat, but I guess you never know. Unfortunately, most fans do not understand this and assume that the hitting coach has greater control and power over his hitters than he actually does.

Had a good conversation with Mike Huff on the show today who made a great point about hitters at this level. He basically said that regardless of the amount of good coaching and that player's acceptance of the coaching he's received, that player will often times fall back on instinct and what comes natural to him. Which is why you see Dye continuously swing and miss outside sliders on 2-strike counts or why AJ loves to chase the splitter/curve an inch off the ground...thus resulting in a popup. They're doing what their instinct dictates, not what coaching has suggested.

The idea that Walker can do much about this is as inaccurate as the idea that he tells them to "lift and pull" everything. That is so patently false that it's a shame it even needs to be debated. He simply doesn't tell his hitters to do that. He is constantly telling them to go the other way and to not try do too much. Walker (or anyone) can coach these guys all they want, but the players are often at the mercy of their own instincts.

The changes that need to come, need to come on the roster.

Paulwny
08-29-2009, 12:51 PM
[QUOTE=Ranger;2340469]
Had a good conversation with Mike Huff on the show today who made a great point about hitters at this level. He basically said that regardless of the amount of good coaching and that player's acceptance of the coaching he's received, that player will often times fall back on instinct and what comes natural to him. Which is why you see Dye continuously swing and miss outside sliders on 2-strike counts or why AJ loves to chase the splitter/curve an inch off the ground...thus resulting in a popup. They're doing what their instinct dictates, not what coaching has suggested.QUOTE]



Many years ago I heard something similar to this part of your post.
The veteran player, " Hitting this way brought me to the majors, hitting this way will keep me in the majors . I know my swing better than any coach, I grew up with this swing."

JB98
08-29-2009, 12:51 PM
This has been kind of a circular argument for the last three or three and a half years now.

The Sox get off to a cold start offensively in April and May. The Fire Walker crowd comes out in full force. Come June and July, the bats heat up. The Walker Apologists come out to taunt the Fire Walker crowd, asking "Where are all those people who want to fire Greg Walker now?" Then, the offense goes south late in the season, and the Fire Walker crowd pipes up again.

Wash, rinse, repeat. Nothing new here.

russ99
08-29-2009, 01:00 PM
This is an excellent post and could not possibly be more correct. Hitting coaches lose their jobs for 2 reasons:

1) He simply is lazy and doesn't do the necessary pre-game work with the players, shows up late (i.e. a certain, former first base coach), etc. And more commonly:
2) When GMs/Managers are afraid of losing their jobs and need to present an image of being "proactive" in trying to fix the issue. This is done to satisfy the public and make them feel like management is "getting to the bottom of the problem." It's quite absurd, actually.

Neither of these two apply to Walker. At least, I don't believe they would fire him as a scapegoat, but I guess you never know. Unfortunately, most fans do not understand this and assume that the hitting coach has greater control and power over his hitters than he actually does.

Had a good conversation with Mike Huff on the show today who made a great point about hitters at this level. He basically said that regardless of the amount of good coaching and that player's acceptance of the coaching he's received, that player will often times fall back on instinct and what comes natural to him. Which is why you see Dye continuously swing and miss outside sliders on 2-strike counts or why AJ loves to chase the splitter/curve an inch off the ground...thus resulting in a popup. They're doing what their instinct dictates, not what coaching has suggested.

The idea that Walker can do much about this is as inaccurate as the idea that he tells them to "lift and pull" everything. That is so patently false that it's a shame it even needs to be debated. He simply doesn't tell his hitters to do that. He is constantly telling them to go the other way and to not try do too much. Walker (or anyone) can coach these guys all they want, but the players are often at the mercy of their own instincts.

The changes that need to come, need to come on the roster.

Outstanding post as usual, Ranger, but I have to ask a few questions:

1) There was that quote earlier this year about the Sox not preparing properly for facing opposing teams or making any adjustments from pitcher to pitcher. That story could be just conjecture, but results on-field tell a similar story.

Who's responsibility is that? The entire coaching staff? Could Walker not be hitting your #1 target because this prep/adjustment work is not being done?

2) The "HR or nothing" philosophy - I can understand if Dye, Thome and Konerko fall into familiar comfort zones where they go for the fences, but this is happening to many players (even non-sluggers) over multiple seasons. Does this pressure to go all out come from the staff or above? And if Walker is instructing the players to not do this, could they be tuning out Walker completely?

I still maintain Kenny put himself out on a limb with his acquisitions this year, and if the Sox don't win the division, heads could roll on the roster and on the staff.

But unless Kenny makes that kind of radical break in policy due to poor results, Ozzie's word will stand and Walker will likely stay here.

chisox59
08-29-2009, 01:01 PM
We've basically had the same type of team this entire decade and the hitting always seems to go in a funk. The slumps got Gary Ward fired as hitting coach and he was replaced by Von Joshua. Guess what happened? The same type of hitters slumped in the same manner and Joshua was fired and replaced by Greg Walker. Until this team is built with players who will go with the pitch we'll continue to see the same results year after year irregardless of who the hitting coach is. They all do their homework with tape study and working with the hitters but the results of this come from the hitter at the plate changing his mindset. Konerko is a good example. When he's hitting well the ball gets hit into the right centerfield gap more often. His average goes up and so do his home runs. When he slumps he's trying to pull everything. Greg Walker can be faulted but not for his lack of trying. We only see the game aspect of the coaching but none of us is seeing what goes on behind the scenes. Ozzie and Kenny do which is probably why Greg is still employed.

pmck003
08-29-2009, 01:11 PM
Ok fine fire Walker. Who do you guys want to replace with? Who would magically change our hitters for the better? come on you guys are the experts. Who?

There was a thread about Walker earlier this year and this was brought up. I had been arguing towards firing Walker. The replacement question and that someone reminded me that if you are going to blame Walker for a poor offense, you would also need to give him credit for producing some of the highest scoring offensive teams in the past, changed my mind a bit.

That said, without knowing much about Walker's role and performance, I would guess that it might be a good time for a change. I agree with the scapegoat comments and I think a change would make sense if the Sox felt that a different hitting coach (not necessarily a "better" one) could help in a psychological way - similar to how a change of atmosphere can help a player.

I think KW is smart in letting Ozzie make that decision because I would assume Ozzie would see what is going on everyday. Its too hard for me to have a strong opinion on this anymore without being there.

oeo
08-29-2009, 01:24 PM
I do feel that the quality of players on this offense is not elite. Konerko, Dye, and (especially) Thome are past their respective primes. When the team becomes a bit more athletic next year, we may see more consistent production. I am SICK AND TIRED of this "homer or nothing" crap.

'Good athlete' does not mean 'good hitter.' Jerry Owens is a good athlete. Brian Anderson is a good athlete. The two are not related.

If you think the Sox have been 'homer or nothing', then I question how much you have watched the team this year. That has not been the case. Right now, they're 'nothing' because they can't hit anything.

As for Walker, everyone knows my feelings on him. Firing him does not guarantee anything, but I think a new voice, a new opinion would be worthwhile. Walker has gotten chance after chance. This isn't the same team as 2006, and yet here we are with the same inconsistencies. It's time for a change.

There was a thread about Walker earlier this year and this was brought up. I had been arguing towards firing Walker. The replacement question and that someone reminded me that if you are going to blame Walker for a poor offense, you would also need to give him credit for producing some of the highest scoring offensive teams in the past, changed my mind a bit.

The problem with that argument, is we have NEVER had a high-scoring, consistent attack. It's always come in bunches, just like this year. And it takes at least a few weeks of terrible offense, like we're seeing right now, before the team gets back to basics and works themselves out of the slump.

southside rocks
08-29-2009, 01:41 PM
The changes that need to come, need to come on the roster.

Absolutely agree. And today's Little Game of Horrors is highlighting some of the changes that need to be made.

Hitmen77
08-29-2009, 02:17 PM
Enough's enough already. People can argue all about how hitting coaches are irrelevant, but I've seen enough of this inconsistency from the Sox since the second half of 2006. The inconsistency in the second half of that year cost our guys a playoff spot (as well as bad pitching) and it looks like they're well on their way to doing the same thing this year.

I don't get how this guy's still employed. They struggled not only in the 2nd half of 06, but for the whole season in 2007, the first month and a half last year and bits and pieces for the rest of the year and we all know how inconsistent they've been this year. Look, I realize that there's more problems besides the hitting coach with this team. I'm trying to be as rational as I can be. But in a year like this, someone has to be the fall guy. I'm thinking if Walker doesn't get canned this season, he apparently will collect a paycheck from the White Sox for the rest of his life.

Again these guys are professional hitters but if that's the case, what exactly is a hitting coach there to do? Just to sit on his ass and watch the game from the best seat in the house? I wish I could have that gig. All I know is that this team hacks at the first pitch a LOT and they make opposing pitchers' lives a lot easier.

Thoughts on the guy that's seemingly impossible to get rid of?

Forget it. His job should be secure for life regardless of 4 seasons of offensive underachievement. It has nothing to do with Walker. He has the perfect job: high profile position with absolutely no accountability.

....oh and the Cubs fired their hitting coach and they still suck. Therefore, it's never, ever the hitting coach's fault! They should never get fired unless they practically fall asleep in the dugout or commit a felony!

Apparently he is also irreplaceable. I keep hearing "if we fire him, then what?". Apparently hitting coaches are a dying breed and there aren't any to be found anymore.

If WSI has taught me anything it's that, if you are unhappy with Walker and the offense, just wait until the Sox go on one of their patented short-lived hot streaks where they average 7 runs a game for a few weeks. At that time, all the FOGWs come out in droves to post "FIRE GREG WALKER" with so much teal that you could fill a swimming pool with it. .....never mind that a few weeks later the Sox offense shuts down again, their point has been made and all the Walker haters are proven wrong.

soxinem1
08-29-2009, 02:17 PM
No, it's nothing like that.

The assumption is that firing the hitting coach will improve the hitting performance of a team that is not producing.

One team does it, with no good results.

That is not a positive argument for the same course being followed by another team.

Unless, of course, you are claiming that firing the hitting coach and improved performance are as unrelated as home-buying and marital troubles. Makes about as much sense to me, frankly.

Scapegoating is a stupid move made by stupid people and incompetent management. That is why you see it done on the north side of Chicago but not on the south side.

If Walker deserves to lose his job, it will be for reasons completely unknown to people who post on internet boards, and KW will address the situation. But as a scapegoating move, it won't happen.

These are excellent points, all of them.

Just like a manager and GM get too much credit when the team wins, Walker gets too much flack because these swing-for-the-fence hitters cannot execute.

Walk does not pick the players, make the lineup card, or most of all, HIT!

Does everyone seem to forget how the two hitting coaches a season philosophy worked since Walt Hriniak was fired?

It is time for these hitters to bear FULL responsibility for what they do, or in this case, do not do.

BubblingCalderon
08-29-2009, 02:39 PM
Ok fine fire Walker. Who do you guys want to replace with? Who would magically change our hitters for the better? come on you guys are the experts. Who?


What about Joe Crede? He may retire http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/

Tragg
08-29-2009, 02:41 PM
Broadly, this is 2 out of the last 3 years that the organization has underperformed.
Who bears responsibility?

whitesoxfan
08-29-2009, 02:51 PM
This has been kind of a circular argument for the last three or three and a half years now.

The Sox get off to a cold start offensively in April and May. The Fire Walker crowd comes out in full force. Come June and July, the bats heat up. The Walker Apologists come out to taunt the Fire Walker crowd, asking "Where are all those people who want to fire Greg Walker now?" Then, the offense goes south late in the season, and the Fire Walker crowd pipes up again.

Wash, rinse, repeat. Nothing new here.

That was one of my points that I initially made.

Eventually, whether it's right or wrong, he needs to be held accountable for the garbage that we've been seeing.

We do have a lot of hot and cold hitters and that ultimately falls on KW for placing these guys on our team. But we've seen the same tired act from this offense from the second half of the 06 season to this day. Oh and don't forget about the whole 'seeing a pitcher for the first time' thing. An offense with the type of guys that we have on this roster should not struggle as much as we do against mediocre and poor pitchers. Period.

I do agree with Ranger that we need to change our player personnel. But letting go of Walker and trying something new at the hitting coach position couldn't hurt. There's no negative aspect of firing Walker.

TornLabrum
08-29-2009, 03:01 PM
He may not be the cause, but he sure as hell ain't the solution.

If he's neither the cause nor the solution, why fire him? You've absolved him of all responsibility.

kitekrazy
08-29-2009, 03:32 PM
Well that's the thing. If the Sox fade the last month of the season, Kenny will be very displeased considering the commitment he's made this year. I can totally see some kind of offseason coachng shake-up.

Otherwise, if it were left up to Ozzie, Walker would leave when he leaves.

Wait a minute................I'm was confused by Kenny's commitment in the off season and what was on the opening day roster.

Did he think the division was really weak? Or did he put winning on hold and was shocked how weak it really was and made some changes?

They still may live up to losing 90 games.

Lip Man 1
08-29-2009, 04:26 PM
Kite:

Or he was told by ownership to slash payroll because of expiring advertising deals and did the best he could. (Not excusing him for trash like Miller, Betemit, Wise etc...but it may not be as cut and dried as you surmise)

I do agree with you the roster was awful to start the year.

Lip

soxfanreggie
08-29-2009, 04:32 PM
Sometimes changes are made for the appearance of making a change. Regardless if he bears a majority of the blame or even a large minority of it, a change may be made just for the sake of getting some new blood or new direction in here.

Dibbs
08-29-2009, 04:33 PM
I would have fired him years ago. I don't know if there is anything that would get him fired.

LITTLE NELL
08-29-2009, 04:45 PM
The fielding coach needs to be fired too.

BainesHOF
08-29-2009, 05:13 PM
This is an excellent post and could not possibly be more correct. Hitting coaches lose their jobs for 2 reasons:

1) He simply is lazy and doesn't do the necessary pre-game work with the players, shows up late (i.e. a certain, former first base coach), etc. And more commonly:
2) When GMs/Managers are afraid of losing their jobs and need to present an image of being "proactive" in trying to fix the issue. This is done to satisfy the public and make them feel like management is "getting to the bottom of the problem." It's quite absurd, actually.

Neither of these two apply to Walker. At least, I don't believe they would fire him as a scapegoat, but I guess you never know. Unfortunately, most fans do not understand this and assume that the hitting coach has greater control and power over his hitters than he actually does.

Had a good conversation with Mike Huff on the show today who made a great point about hitters at this level. He basically said that regardless of the amount of good coaching and that player's acceptance of the coaching he's received, that player will often times fall back on instinct and what comes natural to him. Which is why you see Dye continuously swing and miss outside sliders on 2-strike counts or why AJ loves to chase the splitter/curve an inch off the ground...thus resulting in a popup. They're doing what their instinct dictates, not what coaching has suggested.

The idea that Walker can do much about this is as inaccurate as the idea that he tells them to "lift and pull" everything. That is so patently false that it's a shame it even needs to be debated. He simply doesn't tell his hitters to do that. He is constantly telling them to go the other way and to not try do too much. Walker (or anyone) can coach these guys all they want, but the players are often at the mercy of their own instincts.

The changes that need to come, need to come on the roster.

There are many more than two reasons why a hitting coach should be fired. To imply that Walker is doing a good job because he shows up on time is funny. And to say that he shouldn't be fired because some other coaches have been made scapegoats is odd logic.

Perhaps Walker simply isn't doing a good enough job in helping our hitters reach their potential. He may be falling short in improving their physical swing and/or their mental approach. Walker's results have been awful this season.

slavko
08-29-2009, 06:05 PM
The other day Hawk was talking about how Walker worked with Anderson every day and how he absorbed all of the lessons in BP but once in the game it all went out the window and he reverted. That makes me think what Walker does is to get hitters thinking too much and paying too much attention to mechanics. And that is not sustainable under game pressure. Pods was doing a dance in the batter's box to keep himself from thinking too much.

Right now my fear is that Walker will change Beckham from a natural see-the-ball-hit-the-ball hitter into a typical White Sox mental hitter.

Didn't hear Hawk say that but he did used to like Anderson. There was some modification achieved until Anderson dinged his ribcage. Then off the DL and back to square one.

Two guys thrown out at home on stupid decisions by the 3rd base coach. You are after the wrong guy!!

Disagree. On first and third no outs you go on contact. The second one was Castro's fault for not being in motion on 3-2, 2 outs. The baserunning coach's fault? Is there a baserunning coach since Raines was dumped? What would a baserunning coach tell these guys? Don't kill yourself out there?

Ranger
08-29-2009, 07:57 PM
There are many more than two reasons why a hitting coach should be fired. To imply that Walker is doing a good job because he shows up on time is funny. And to say that he shouldn't be fired because some other coaches have been made scapegoats is odd logic.

Perhaps Walker simply isn't doing a good enough job in helping our hitters reach their potential. He may be falling short in improving their physical swing and/or their mental approach. Walker's results have been awful this season.


And I think it's funny that most people don't know what a hitting coach is really supposed to do.

What greater potential do you suppose a hitting coach is going to help Dye, Thome, and Konerko reach? Konerko has been pretty good this year. Thome has been consistent, but he, along with Dye, are having their skills decline as time goes on. No hitting coach will fix that. AJ is doing just fine, too. What about Beckham and Getz? Those guys are hitting pretty well in their first season under Greg Walker.

Walker is doing his job. The lineup is not.

Frater Perdurabo
08-29-2009, 08:01 PM
I think the Sox need to make the outfield wall 100 feet high from pole to pole, to make it virtually impossible to hit a home run out of the park. (If you make it out of clear plexiglas, fans still will be able to see the action.) Therefore, players will be forced to swing level to hit line drives, hoping they hit them hard enough to hit the wall and bounce off for a double.

JB98
08-29-2009, 08:04 PM
I think the Sox need to make the outfield wall 100 feet high from pole to pole, to make it virtually impossible to hit a home run out of the park. (If you make it out of clear plexiglas, fans still will be able to see the action.) Therefore, players will be forced to swing level to hit line drives, hoping they hit them hard enough to hit the wall and bounce off for a double.

Pfftttt....We all know that Sox players have to settle for singles when they hit line drives off the wall. :D:

Frater Perdurabo
08-29-2009, 08:07 PM
Pfftttt....We all know that Sox players have to settle for singles when they hit line drives off the wall. :D:

I know you're joking, but it's true. Dye, Thome and Paulie are all slow, and they also are among the team leaders in OBP, so when someone behind them hits a ball off the wall, they can't run as far as they ordinarily would because the three-toed sloths are clogging the bases. Basically, the Sox offense is constipated, and KW needs to give it some Miralax this offseason.

ndgt10
08-29-2009, 08:49 PM
I know you're joking, but it's true. Dye, Thome and Paulie are all slow, and they also are among the team leaders in OBP, so when someone behind them hits a ball off the wall, they can't run as far as they ordinarily would because the three-toed sloths are clogging the bases. Basically, the Sox offense is constipated, and KW needs to give it some Miralax this offseason.An enema woulld have a much quicker effect.

captain54
08-29-2009, 08:50 PM
And I think it's funny that most people don't know what a hitting coach is really supposed to do.

Walker is doing his job. The lineup is not.

So then what criteria do you base Greg Walker's performance when all is said and done? According to you, apparently none, if it's all on the players in the lineup. Why even have a hitting coach then?

There have been dozens of occasions this year when this team has failed to score with either runners on third with 1 out or less, or fail to score with a man on second and no outs. Yet, you continually see players swing for the fences and end up swinging at pitches out of the zone, resulting in strikeouts or weak infield popups. Hard to believe that the hitting coach hasn't been able to help correct this problem in at least SOME of those situations.

that being said, I will say that we are not there to witness what is going on, but we are privvy to the results on the field, and they are not there.

ndgt10
08-29-2009, 08:52 PM
I think the Sox need to make the outfield wall 100 feet high from pole to pole, to make it virtually impossible to hit a home run out of the park. (If you make it out of clear plexiglas, fans still will be able to see the action.) Therefore, players will be forced to swing level to hit line drives, hoping they hit them hard enough to hit the wall and bounce off for a double.
The thought of that makes me chuckle.

whitesoxfan
08-29-2009, 11:04 PM
And I think it's funny that most people don't know what a hitting coach is really supposed to do.

What greater potential do you suppose a hitting coach is going to help Dye, Thome, and Konerko reach? Konerko has been pretty good this year. Thome has been consistent, but he, along with Dye, are having their skills decline as time goes on. No hitting coach will fix that. AJ is doing just fine, too. What about Beckham and Getz? Those guys are hitting pretty well in their first season under Greg Walker.

Walker is doing his job. The lineup is not.

Sure AJ's hitting fine, but he's drawing any walks. And judging by the reaction that he gives Hawk and Stone, apparently they all laugh about his impatience. If a guy is hitting close to .315, he should have an OBP of around .370. Make no mistake, I love AJ but walks are just as important as singles.

Some of the guys might be hitting well, but they really don't take many pitches meaning they don't walk as much as they should. This team has some of the worst at bats in the league. Do I really need to go into how bad they are with RISP? Eventually, someone's going to have to take the fall for a lackluster offense and Walker's not getting the job done. Again it might not all be fully his fault, but sometimes you have to make a move just to make a move. Walker's gotten enough free passes during his tenure here. It's time to make a change regarding the hitting coach position.

johnnyg83
08-30-2009, 01:20 AM
walks are just as important as singles.

walks < singles.

Viva Medias B's
08-30-2009, 07:44 AM
Bring #72

That is the same silly mentality that permeates the feeble of minds of Bears fans who think they should be coached by a member of the '85 team "because they would have the passion."

TornLabrum
08-30-2009, 10:51 AM
walks < singles.

With the bases empty walks = singles.

nsolo
08-30-2009, 11:49 AM
I've read all the posts. I began reading with the thought that Walker needs to go. After considering all the well thought out opinions, I'm left with my original belief. It is time for a change.

My strongest reason for this is what others have eluded to. That despite the change in personnel that has happened in the past few years, we still see the same results.

Yes players are professionals, and it is their swing that helped bring them to the majors, and you can't make them try new approaches. But if the coach in question can never be questioned for their on field performance, then it seems absurd to hire them in the first place. Just let the professional police themselves.

I admit that part of my thinking is rooted in frustration in the teams performance. That being weighed in, a change is in order. I do believe that there will be many changes in personnel before the start of next year, and that a change now will have a short bearing on those you will be leaving. But I believe that a message of accountability is in order to those that will be staying. Those that will be leaving will be communicated that same message with their "walk"ing papers.

Like it or not, that is my opinion.

doublem23
08-30-2009, 11:53 AM
With the bases empty walks = singles.

In hindsight, yes, but you'd obviously rather put the ball in play because it brings up the possibility of an error.

oeo
08-30-2009, 11:54 AM
Sure AJ's hitting fine, but he's drawing any walks. And judging by the reaction that he gives Hawk and Stone, apparently they all laugh about his impatience. If a guy is hitting close to .315, he should have an OBP of around .370. Make no mistake, I love AJ but walks are just as important as singles.

AJ has NEVER walked. Some things don't change. If you're looking for OBP from AJ Pierzynski, you're looking in the wrong spot.

One thing he also doesn't do is strike out.

Ranger
08-30-2009, 12:25 PM
So then what criteria do you base Greg Walker's performance when all is said and done? According to you, apparently none, if it's all on the players in the lineup. Why even have a hitting coach then?

There have been dozens of occasions this year when this team has failed to score with either runners on third with 1 out or less, or fail to score with a man on second and no outs. Yet, you continually see players swing for the fences and end up swinging at pitches out of the zone, resulting in strikeouts or weak infield popups. Hard to believe that the hitting coach hasn't been able to help correct this problem in at least SOME of those situations.

that being said, I will say that we are not there to witness what is going on, but we are privvy to the results on the field, and they are not there.


Sure AJ's hitting fine, but he's drawing any walks. And judging by the reaction that he gives Hawk and Stone, apparently they all laugh about his impatience. If a guy is hitting close to .315, he should have an OBP of around .370. Make no mistake, I love AJ but walks are just as important as singles.

Some of the guys might be hitting well, but they really don't take many pitches meaning they don't walk as much as they should. This team has some of the worst at bats in the league. Do I really need to go into how bad they are with RISP? Eventually, someone's going to have to take the fall for a lackluster offense and Walker's not getting the job done. Again it might not all be fully his fault, but sometimes you have to make a move just to make a move. Walker's gotten enough free passes during his tenure here. It's time to make a change regarding the hitting coach position.

I will never understand "making a move just to make a move". No offense, but it's just one of the dumbest ideas in sports.

Someone already essentially made the point for me, but I'll continue. AJ never walks, he never has walked, he's never going to walk. In fact, the season with the most walks per AB he ever had was with the Sox. Under Greg Walker.

It's frustrating to me when people make assertions or implications that a player doesn't have much patience at the plate, therefore the hitting coach needs to be fired. It leads me to believe those people simply don't know what they're talking about. Because if anyone truly believes that a Major League hitting coach is going to take a free-swinger and turn him into a walks machine, they need to get a lesson in baseball reality.

It is just NOT as simple as some people would like it to be. It is just not as simple as "Fire Greg Walker = White Sox smarter ABs". These guys are who they are. They are never, ever going to change.

Yes, fans put way too much stock in what a hitting coach does and the control he has. He's there to make sure guys get their pre-game work in and make sure they have the information they need. And he's there to lsiten to them and tell them to relax. They get all of those things, trust me.

Blaming Walker is the same as blaming Cora for the infield defense or Baines for the outfield defense. Notice how much better the outfield was when Anderson was in it? You think that had anything to do with Baines? Or was that because of Anderson just being a good outfielder? Answer: it's not because of Harold Baines.

The real problem is that the Sox have a bunch of good hitters, but too many of them are too much alike. Too many high-power, free-swinging, sometimes over-anxious types. The real solution is that they probably just need a better mix of hitters.

Firing Greg Walker would be the equivalent of peeling a band-aid off a gunshot wound and then replacing it with another band-aid.

southside rocks
08-30-2009, 12:32 PM
And I think it's funny that most people don't know what a hitting coach is really supposed to do.



I don't think that a lot of people who want Walker gone really CARE what the job of a hitting coach is, much less how Greg Walker is doing at that job.

I think a lot of people want what they call "accountability" but what in reality is punishment: of someone, anyone. The team is playing really badly and somebody should suffer for that, is the rationale behind those calls, IMO.

It does nothing to solve the problems, and it creates a punitive and confrontational mentality whether it's used in the context of a baseball team or in society in general. It's about frustration, the frustration of unmet expectations.

In other words, it's scapegoating. :rolleyes:

Ranger
08-30-2009, 12:37 PM
I don't think that a lot of people who want Walker gone really CARE what the job of a hitting coach is, much less how Greg Walker is doing at that job.

I think a lot of people want what they call "accountability" but what in reality is punishment: of someone, anyone. The team is playing really badly and somebody should suffer for that, is the rationale behind those calls, IMO.

It does nothing to solve the problems, and it creates a punitive and confrontational mentality whether it's used in the context of a baseball team or in society in general. It's about frustration, the frustration of unmet expectations.

In other words, it's scapegoating. :rolleyes:

Not only are you onto something, but you've fallen into it. This is EXACTLY what it is.

Daver
08-30-2009, 12:49 PM
I will never understand "making a move just to make a move". No offense, but it's just one of the dumbest ideas in sports.

Someone already essentially made the point for me, but I'll continue. AJ never walks, he never has walked, he's never going to walk. In fact, the season with the most walks per AB he ever had was with the Sox. Under Greg Walker.

It's frustrating to me when people make assertions or implications that a player doesn't have much patience at the plate, therefore the hitting coach needs to be fired. It leads me to believe those people simply don't know what they're talking about. Because if anyone truly believes that a Major League hitting coach is going to take a free-swinger and turn him into a walks machine, they need to get a lesson in baseball reality.

It is just NOT as simple as some people would like it to be. It is just not as simple as "Fire Greg Walker = White Sox smarter ABs". These guys are who they are. They are never, ever going to change.

The only hitting coach I have ever seen that could do it was Walt Hrniak, and then only if the player had the self discipline to accept Walt's system completely, not many did aside from Frank Thomas.

Ranger
08-30-2009, 12:59 PM
The only hitting coach I have ever seen that could do it was Walt Hrniak, and then only if the player had the self discipline to accept Walt's system completely, not many did aside from Frank Thomas.

And not every hitter was capable of doing that. Frank Thomas was just good.

GlassSox
08-30-2009, 01:00 PM
Firing Greg Walker would be the equivalent of peeling a band-aid off a gunshot wound and then replacing it with another band-aid.

Yes but many times changing the bandaid really helps the wound heal faster. :wink:

Ranger
08-30-2009, 01:05 PM
Yes but many times changing the bandaid really helps the wound heal faster. :wink:

Not with a gunshot wound. You'll just bleed through it and then say, "This band-aid is not working! Take it off and get a new one!!!". Meanwhile, the real solution is that someone needs to take out the damn bullet.

GlassSox
08-30-2009, 01:29 PM
Not with a gunshot wound. You'll just bleed through it and then say, "This band-aid is not working! Take it off and get a new one!!!". Meanwhile, the real solution is that someone needs to take out the damn bullet.

I love it, so maybe Walker is the bullet that needs to be removed.:rolleyes:

SOXSINCE'70
08-30-2009, 01:42 PM
The only hitting coach I have ever seen that could do it was Walt Hrniak, and then only if the player had the self discipline to accept Walt's system completely, not many did aside from Frank Thomas.

Robin Ventura was also one of Hrniak's disciples as well.

Frater Perdurabo
08-30-2009, 02:23 PM
That is the same silly mentality that permeates the feeble of minds of Bears fans who think they should be coached by a member of the '85 team "because they would have the passion."

Well, it depends. Fridge, McMahon or McMichael probably wouldn't be good coaches, but Frazier, Singletary and Rivera have had some coaching success at various levels.

Fisk seems to have the ingredients to be a good coach: intensity, "skins on the wall" to command respect, and a thorough knowledge of all aspects of the game. Because of their high degree of involvement in game play, catchers tend to make good coaches anyway. I think Fisk would be a great bench coach, but it has nothing to do with the fact that he used to play for the Sox. He certainly wouldn't be Ozzie's "yes man," which means that Ozzie would never tolerate Fisk as his bench coach.

Hosey22
08-30-2009, 03:41 PM
It is just NOT as simple as some people would like it to be. It is just not as simple as "Fire Greg Walker = White Sox smarter ABs". These guys are who they are. They are never, ever going to change.

Yes, fans put way too much stock in what a hitting coach does and the control he has. He's there to make sure guys get their pre-game work in and make sure they have the information they need. And he's there to lsiten to them and tell them to relax. They get all of those things, trust me.

.

Never ever going to change? Part of being a professional ballplayer is learning when to change...adjusting. That is also part of what makes a great hitting coach. Somebody who can observe a ballplayer's swing and help him to alter it slightly when necessary. Baseball is a game of adjustments and when I watch our ballclub fail to make those adjustments whether it be throughout the course of a game, or a season, that to me reflects the hitting coach.

Sometimes ballplayers simply need another perspective and that is what a change in the coaching staff can provide. I've had hitting coaches that have simply been around to make sure that the players get their pre-game work in and relax. Doesn't always work. To me the best hitting coaches are the ones that are pro-active; always giving the hitters new challenges in pre-game, always in contact with them during the game, and constantly looking to help the ballplayer adjust. I don't see that with Walker and I never have. Time for a change.

Tragg
08-30-2009, 03:46 PM
The real problem is that the Sox have a bunch of good hitters, but too many of them are too much alike. Too many high-power, free-swinging, sometimes over-anxious types. The real solution is that they probably just need a better mix of hitters.

Firing Greg Walker would be the equivalent of peeling a band-aid off a gunshot wound and then replacing it with another band-aid.
That's true.
But when has this coaching staff shown anything other than a preference for free-swinging. Have they nurtured and taught the young players the value of learning the strike zone?
For example, have they worked with Alexei on plate discipline? Or Ozzie faves Owens/Wise in the past?
Williams started talking about it in 07, and Guillen jeered at it (saying something like, well, that would mean Thome should lead off).
Williams acquires a quintessential walker, Swisher - how did that work out?
If you want obp, you need a different coaching staff.

Daver
08-30-2009, 04:08 PM
If you want obp, you need a different coaching staff.

Do you actually believe some of the stuff you post?


You teach fundamentals at the minor league level, they need to change their philosophy on how players are promoted through the minors.

fuzzy_patters
08-30-2009, 04:16 PM
That's true.
But when has this coaching staff shown anything other than a preference for free-swinging. Have they nurtured and taught the young players the value of learning the strike zone?
For example, have they worked with Alexei on plate discipline? Or Ozzie faves Owens/Wise in the past?
Williams started talking about it in 07, and Guillen jeered at it (saying something like, well, that would mean Thome should lead off).
Williams acquires a quintessential walker, Swisher - how did that work out?
If you want obp, you need a different coaching staff.

Is it the coaches or the players? You point out that you don't believe that they have nurtured and taught the young players plate discipline. Yet, a rookie has the second highest on base percentage on the team. Sometimes it's the players that have the preference for free swinging.

Craig Grebeck
08-30-2009, 04:17 PM
Do you actually believe some of the stuff you post?


You teach fundamentals at the minor league level, they need to change their philosophy on how players are promoted through the minors.
There are two positional players on the White Sox that were developed in the minor leagues (one of whom is Beckham, who may not even be relevant), so this doesn't really apply to our major league roster.

fuzzy_patters
08-30-2009, 04:19 PM
There are two positional players on the White Sox that were developed in the minor leagues (one of whom is Beckham, who may not even be relevant), so this doesn't really apply to our major league roster.

Should we fire our major league coaches because our minor leagues aren't developing talent?

Craig Grebeck
08-30-2009, 04:26 PM
Should we fire our major league coaches because our minor leagues aren't developing talent?
I think it would be well-within reason to fire Greg Walker, despite Ranger's assertion that the only good reason to fire a hitting coach is malaise (even if the offense underachieves constantly and never seems prepared).

Buddy Bell is trying to change things in the minor leagues. We'll see.

Tragg
08-30-2009, 04:33 PM
Do you actually believe some of the stuff you post?


You teach fundamentals at the minor league level, they need to change their philosophy on how players are promoted through the minors.

So?
Did I say otherwise?
Just because it's the job of the minors to instill it, doesn't mean you ignore it on the ML level.
You think Ozzie preaches obp and plate disclipline? I think the evidence is clear he prefers aggressive free-swinging types.
Beckham is in a slump - do you think he an Greg and the ones to get him back to going with pitches an using the strike zone more to his advantage, which he does when playing well?

Daver
08-30-2009, 04:34 PM
So?
Did I say otherwise?
Just because it's the job of the minors to instill it, doesn't mean you ignore it on the ML level.
You think Ozzie preaches obp and plate disclipline?

If you are teaching players at the MLB level you are fielding a losing team.

soxfanreggie
08-30-2009, 05:53 PM
Fisk seems to have the ingredients to be a good coach: intensity, "skins on the wall" to command respect, and a thorough knowledge of all aspects of the game. Because of their high degree of involvement in game play, catchers tend to make good coaches anyway. I think Fisk would be a great bench coach, but it has nothing to do with the fact that he used to play for the Sox. He certainly wouldn't be Ozzie's "yes man," which means that Ozzie would never tolerate Fisk as his bench coach.

Interesting fact: Fisk was a volunteer assistant for a season at ISU when his son Casey went there.

SI1020
08-30-2009, 06:04 PM
I can understand if an individual is against firing Greg Walker. I don't for the life of me understand the lines of thought that state among other things, it doesn't matter, it's not his fault, it's too late at the ML level to coach or teach. Watching this never ending rerun of Sox hitters having horrible one dimensional at bats, just killing good chances to win games is now too much for even me to take. If it doesn't matter, why even have a hitting coach? If it's not his fault, then who gets the accountability? As for not coaching or teaching at this level, everyone, even those with high paying high profile positions get to attend seminars, are subject to retraining, cross training and various forms of teaching and evaluation. I remember watching Joe Lonnett on TV going over various drills the Tanner coaching staff did with players. Situation hitting, and various fielding and base running drills. If you work you get coached, taught, evaluated, criticized, prodded and occasionally praised and rewarded. The White Sox have not hit well enough to pull out the close games for a long time now. At this point the meltdown is stunning in its completeness. I liked Greg Walker as a player, but as a hitting coach he's not cutting it. I also liked Chris Singleton very much when he played for the Sox, but he was just brutal on the radio. He has landed on his feet with a media job much more suited to his personality and skills and I'm happy for him. I hope Greg Walker can do the same.

BadBobbyJenks
08-30-2009, 06:11 PM
I dont know if the hitting coach is all that important, but I think you have to at least make a statement that this is unacceptable and give Walker the axe.

Frater Perdurabo
08-30-2009, 07:10 PM
Let's re-frame the question:

If the Sox needed a hitting coach, and Greg Walker was available, who here would advocate HIRING Greg Walker, based on his body of work?

chisoxfanatic
08-30-2009, 07:11 PM
I dont know if the hitting coach is all that important, but I think you have to at least make a statement that this is unacceptable and give Walker the axe.
Bad BJ,

I think the fact that, because the hitting has been home run-or-nothing for years now, and has proven to be ineffective most of the time, it falls on Walker's shoulders more than the players. His whole hitting philosophy is wrong. They need someone with a better philosophy.

Daver
08-30-2009, 07:16 PM
Let's re-frame the question:

If the Sox needed a hitting coach, and Greg Walker was available, who here would advocate HIRING Greg Walker, based on his body of work?

I would.

kitekrazy
08-30-2009, 07:16 PM
If you are teaching players at the MLB level you are fielding a losing team.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/black-jack-white-sox/2009/08/na-na-hey-hey-white-sox.html

I like Blackjack's comments.

The Twins organization teaches it's ballplayers HOW to play the game. The Twins will not have seen the defensive woes of the White Sox. Nor have they seen the lack of execution offensively, because they are taught how to get things done. They are taught to be team players rather than worrying about personal stats. And they don't take plays off let alone games! If you don't buy into that philosophy, you are gone.

Frater Perdurabo
08-30-2009, 07:21 PM
I would.

Why would you hire him? What does he do better than most other MLB hitting coaches? Would you pick him over Rudy Jaramillo, Gene Tenace or Mickey Hatcher?

DumpJerry
08-30-2009, 07:24 PM
Is there anyone among the haters who can show where the Sox or Walker actually say that "home run or nothing" is the organizational philosophy of the White Sox?

Good luck with that Google search.

Keep in mind Ozzie sent Lillibridge packing earlier this year because he was always swinging for the fences.

Keep in mind that the team signed Podsednik this year knowing he is not the next Griffey, jr.

Daver
08-30-2009, 07:28 PM
Why would you hire him? What does he do better than most other MLB hitting coaches? Would you pick him over Rudy Jaramillo, Gene Tenace or Mickey Hatcher?

I'm not one of the towering baseball intellects here, of which we have many it seems, perhaps one of them is better suited to answer this.

TheBigHurtST
08-30-2009, 07:29 PM
So?
Did I say otherwise?
Just because it's the job of the minors to instill it, doesn't mean you ignore it on the ML level.


Well said! I see nothing but excuses when it comes to defense of Walker.

"It's the PLAYERS' fault!" (This is partially true, but only partially)
"The hitting coach doesn't affect a hitter's mentality overall."
"Name someone who would be better!" (A lazy response if I've ever heard one)
"How do YOU know Walker's not doing his job?" (Maybe because the Sox have been almost dead at the plate for years now???)

I just hear nothing but excuses. Here's a question: What logical reason do we have NOT to hire a different hitting coach? Why not change? The Sox offense has been atrocious over the last few years. It can't get much worse. TAKE A CHANCE. Seriously, why NOT find another hitting coach???

DumpJerry
08-30-2009, 07:31 PM
Well said! I see nothing but excuses when it comes to defense of Walker.

"It's the PLAYERS' fault!" (This is partially true, but only partially)
"The hitting coach doesn't affect a hitter's mentality overall."
"Name someone who would be better!" (A lazy response if I've ever heard one)
"How do YOU know Walker's not doing his job?" (Maybe because the Sox have been almost dead at the plate for years now???)

I just hear nothing but excuses. Here's a question: What logical reason do we have NOT to hire a different hitting coach? Why not change? The Sox offense has been atrocious over the last few years. It can't get much worse. TAKE A CHANCE. Seriously, why NOT find another hitting coach???
Because that does not address the problem. The Cubs tried it this year and it did nothing for them.

Can someone show me five teams who fired their hitting coach and the replacement made a noticeable with the same talent? How about one team?

kitekrazy
08-30-2009, 07:32 PM
Is there anyone among the haters who can show where the Sox or Walker actually say that "home run or nothing" is the organizational philosophy of the White Sox?


No one said it but it's often easy to see. Josh Fields may it thru the system because at one time he could hit home runs but couldn't catch a baseball.

They swapped having a hole in DH for one in CF.

They would probably trade a Johan Santana for a Manny Ramirez.

Frater Perdurabo
08-30-2009, 07:32 PM
I'm not one of the towering baseball intellects here, of which we have many it seems, perhaps one of them is better suited to answer this.

I'm specifically asking you for your opinion because I respect it.

Brian26
08-30-2009, 07:35 PM
Fisk seems to have the ingredients to be a good coach: intensity, "skins on the wall" to command respect, and a thorough knowledge of all aspects of the game. Because of their high degree of involvement in game play, catchers tend to make good coaches anyway. I think Fisk would be a great bench coach, but it has nothing to do with the fact that he used to play for the Sox. He certainly wouldn't be Ozzie's "yes man," which means that Ozzie would never tolerate Fisk as his bench coach.

Fisk seemed to lack the one characteristic during his career that is probably most beneficial in a quality coach. That trait was/is willingness to open up and help others.

Maybe he's changed his ways, but I've heard plenty of stories about Pudge being a moody SOB who didn't take a lot of time in mentoring younger guys on the team.

kitekrazy
08-30-2009, 07:35 PM
Because that does not address the problem. The Cubs tried it this year and it did nothing for them.

Can someone show me five teams who fired their hitting coach and the replacement made a noticeable with the same talent? How about one team?

I think power hitters have the biggest time making adjustment or they just can't. I think that's why you see the same patterns in hitting on both sides of town.

DumpJerry
08-30-2009, 07:36 PM
No one said it but it's often easy to see. Josh Fields may it thru the system because at one time he could hit home runs but couldn't catch a baseball.

They swapped having a hole in DH for one in CF.

They would probably trade a Johan Santana for a Manny Ramirez.
This post is too far removed from reality, and too hypothetical on the last point, for someone to respond to it.

SI1020
08-30-2009, 07:36 PM
How does one qualify to be a hater? Have an opinion on someone or something that runs contrary to the accepted party line? I doubt that very many if any here actually hate Greg Walker. Some of us took a long time in arriving at the conclusion that it's time for him to go. The Sox need retooled and reworked on so many levels before they can considered serious contenders again. I'd be willing to take several seasons of sub par baseball if they want to blow it up and start all over again. No, not Pittsburgh Pirates style. I'd settle for a return to traditional Chicago White Sox style of play. No, I don't hate Greg Walker. Just please make this long overdue change.

DumpJerry
08-30-2009, 07:39 PM
Somewhere, the White Sox front office is reading this thread and is laughing very hard.....

TheBigHurtST
08-30-2009, 07:40 PM
Because that does not address the problem. The Cubs tried it this year and it did nothing for them.

Can someone show me five teams who fired their hitting coach and the replacement made a noticeable with the same talent? How about one team?

Pardon me, but why does that matter at all? The Cubs tried it and it didn't help them? Okay, where's your arguing logic? So if it doesn't work for one team at one specific point in time, it makes no sense for us to do it? Really? I don't see any logic in that. It sounds like ANOTHER lazy excuse to me. Seriously, let's fire Greg Walker and not hire anyone as a hitting coach because apparently in your eyes and many others it doesn't matter who our hitting coach is, your mentality is that it won't help. So let's save some money for the payroll and go without a hitting coach because apparently the hitting coach has no actual bearing on our offense!

That's the logic some of you are presenting.


As far as I'm concerned I wouldn't worry about other teams. What's the point of having a hitting coach in the first place, then? DO they all just sit on the bench and do nothing? All I know is that there are plenty of teams that have good offense. Apparently hitting coaches on those teams must be helping out somewhat.

Just using basic logic, the Sox really have no reason to try someone else. it's just that simple.

Frater Perdurabo
08-30-2009, 07:52 PM
I'd settle for a return to traditional Chicago White Sox style of play.

Pitching and defense and timely, opportunistic hitting? Yes, please!

Unfortunately, since 2000 "White Sox baseball" has been patterned on the old Earl Weaver "starting pitching and wait for the three-run homer" model. Unfortunately, back when the Orioles were winning, you only needed four starting pitchers. Now you need five, and the Sox perpetually seem to be one starter short (other than 2005 and first half of 2006).

Big D
08-30-2009, 07:57 PM
Somewhere, the White Sox front office is reading this thread and is laughing very hard.....

I'm guessing the Yankee pitchers had a laugh or two of their own this weekend.

Frater Perdurabo
08-30-2009, 07:57 PM
Fisk seemed to lack the one characteristic during his career that is probably most beneficial in a quality coach. That trait was/is willingness to open up and help others.

Maybe he's changed his ways, but I've heard plenty of stories about Pudge being a moody SOB who didn't take a lot of time in mentoring younger guys on the team.

Oh, I agree, but after 1985 or so it seemed he was fighting to keep his job every year. From Hawk's LF experiment in 1986 (to make room for Joel Skinner and Ron Hassey), to the increasing playing time given to Ron Karkovice, from Fisk's perspective he had no reason to want to help the youngsters. I have no idea if he's be a good teacher as a coach, but I don't think anyone can argue that he has most of the other necessary characteristics.

Ozzie seems to let his veterans slide, but he seems especially hard on young players. Fisk probably would chew out any player, regardless of tenure, for dogging it.

Lip Man 1
08-30-2009, 08:02 PM
Dump:

If memory serves when the Indians fired Eddie Murray as hitting coach, they got measurably better. Or it could be when they fired whomever and hired Murray...I'm sorry I can't recall specifically but I do think they got much better as a team hitting wise when they made a change.

Lip

Waysouthsider
08-30-2009, 08:10 PM
I just don't get how they can be bad with runners in scoring positions....it seems like we've got guys swinging for the fences with RISP when they should just be putting the ball in play. You'd think the hitting coach would have some insight into how to get these guys to be more mature at the plate....however, everyone in the media was talking about what geniuses these guys were a couple of weeks ago and now they are in the first really serious rough patch of the year and all of the sudden the coaching staff is the problem. Its a shame they've gone into a serious slump now....I'm thinking that all along they've had serious flaws and now they are all catching up at once...not really Walker's fault.

Lip Man 1
08-30-2009, 08:15 PM
Ranger has it right and it's been said here before by others. Thome, Dye, Konerko etc have had success in the big leagues being who they are... they are not going to shorten up, go the other way, hit up the middle, bunt to beat the shift and so forth

The problem is, the White Sox M.O. this decade has been to get so many of the same type of hitters up and down the lineup, free swingers, home run or nothing.

If someone could guarantee the Sox would hit three two run home runs a game, I'd take my chances with it but they can't and this team has shown time and time again this decade when they go into a slump, they are cooked because they don't know how to create runs other than swing hard and hope like hell to hit that six run home run. (Save of course for 2005, when they had great balance...)

Lip

TheBigHurtST
08-30-2009, 08:20 PM
Ranger has it right and it's been said here before by others. Thome, Dye, Konerko etc have had success in the big leagues being who they are... they are not going to shorten up, go the other way, hit up the middle, bunt to beat the shift and so forth

The problem is, the White Sox M.O. this decade has been to get so many of the same type of hitters up and down the lineup, free swingers, home run or nothing.

If someone could guarantee the Sox would hit three two run home runs a game, I'd take my chances with it but they can't and this team has shown time and time again this decade when they go into a slump, they are cooked because they don't know how to create runs other than swing hard and hope like hell to hit that six run home run. (Save of course for 2005, when they had great balance...)

Lip

That's an excellent point.

captain54
08-30-2009, 08:21 PM
These guys are who they are. They are never, ever going to change.

.


They why in God's name even have a hitting coach if they are never going to change???

WALKER: " Hey, Nixie, I noticed you are pulling off the ball a bit too much"
NIXi: "Really. oh well, that's my swing and it's gotten me this far, no sense changing it"
WALKER: "Sorry to bother you man, yeah you're right"

TheBigHurtST
08-30-2009, 08:22 PM
They why in God's name even have a hitting coach if they are never going to change???

WALKER: " Hey, Nixie, I noticed you are pulling off the ball a bit too much"
NIXi: "Really. oh well, that's my swing and it's gotten me this far, no sense changing it"
WALKER: "Sorry to bother you man, yeah you're right"

Basically what I said. What is going through the minds off the upper management of this team? How can they not see what we as SIMPLE FANS see?

DumpJerry
08-30-2009, 08:23 PM
I suppose if Ozzie announced that if they don't start hitting better, the team will choose a WSIer at random to be the hitting coach for two days.

Same goes for the Bullpen.

That should scare them into playing like the '27 Yankees.

Daver
08-30-2009, 08:25 PM
I'm specifically asking you for your opinion because I respect it.

OK, can we first establish what a MLB hitting coach does? He is not there to be an instructor, hitting instructors work in the minor leagues, Walker was one with the White Sox for a number of years, he helped prepare guys like Aaron Rowand and Joe Crede for the next level. He's a good fit for the White Sox because he has been an instructor, and can help the young guys on the roster, but he also can be an observer and point out what the veterans on the roster might be struggling with, and help them work through it if asked. Veteran players generally work out their own problems once the problem is spotted, they go to Greg for advice on the best approach to work it out. There are a lot of hitting coaches that take the my way or it's wrong approach, that very approach is why Walt Hrniak is not employed in the league, you can't change a players habits at the MLB level, a free swinger that doesn't walk at the MLB level is always going to be a free swinger that doesn't walk.

What coach do we fire for the poor defense in both the infield and outfield?

Should Don Cooper be fired for the struggles the pitching staff has had?

Who gets fired for the poor baserunning?

Daver
08-30-2009, 08:27 PM
Dump:

If memory serves when the Indians fired Eddie Murray as hitting coach, they got measurably better. Or it could be when they fired whomever and hired Murray...I'm sorry I can't recall specifically but I do think they got much better as a team hitting wise when they made a change.

Lip

What did the White Sox gain from firing Von Joshua, other than losing a good hitting coach?

TheBigHurtST
08-30-2009, 08:30 PM
OK, can we first establish what a MLB hitting coach does? He is not there to be an instructor, hitting instructors work in the minor leagues, Walker was one with the White Sox for a number of years, he helped prepare guys like Aaron Rowand and Joe Crede for the next level. He's a good fit for the White Sox because he has been an instructor, and can help the young guys on the roster, but he also can be an observer and point out what the veterans on the roster might be struggling with, and help them work through it if asked. Veteran players generally work out their own problems once the problem is spotted, they go to Greg for advice on the best approach to work it out. There are a lot of hitting coaches that take the my way or it's wrong approach, that very approach is why Walt Hrniak is not employed in the league, you can't change a players habits at the MLB level, a free swinger that doesn't walk at the MLB level is always going to be a free swinger that doesn't walk.

What coach do we fire for the poor defense in both the infield and outfield?

Should Don Cooper be fired for the struggles the pitching staff has had?

Who gets fired for the poor baserunning?

A couple of flaws in this post.

Number one, then what point really is there for Walker or anyone else to be a hitting coach here or anywhere else? If MLB guys don't ever change as you say, they why do teams have hitting coaches?

Second, comparing the struggles of our pitching staff to the sheer stupidity behind our hitting mechanics and baserunning skills (lack of, rather) is not a logical comparison at all in my view. The rotation has been generally solid and their main struggles have been lack of run support; that's more of an offensive problem. As far as the bullpen goes I could suppose you're somewhat correct, but Linebrink is the only one in my view that's just overall terrible and a part of me wonders if that isn't partially due to him not being the same after his injury.

The point is, most of the pitching staff's struggles come from the inability of the offense to score runs.

Daver
08-30-2009, 08:35 PM
The point is, most of the pitching staff's struggles come from the inability of the offense to score runs.

This is simply hysterical.

DumpJerry
08-30-2009, 08:37 PM
The point is, most of the pitching staff's struggles come from the inability of the offense to score runs.
Ah....I see the light! Linebrink is trying to show the offense that hitting home runs all the time is not the way to win! He is not "struggling," he is "instructing."





It does not seem to be working.:angry:

captain54
08-30-2009, 08:46 PM
OK, can we first establish what a MLB hitting coach does? He is not there to be an instructor, hitting instructors work in the minor leagues, Walker was one with the White Sox for a number of years, he helped prepare guys like Aaron Rowand and Joe Crede for the next level. He's a good fit for the White Sox because he has been an instructor, and can help the young guys on the roster, but he also can be an observer and point out what the veterans on the roster might be struggling with, and help them work through it if asked. Veteran players generally work out their own problems once the problem is spotted, they go to Greg for advice on the best approach to work it out. There are a lot of hitting coaches that take the my way or it's wrong approach, that very approach is why Walt Hrniak is not employed in the league, you can't change a players habits at the MLB level, a free swinger that doesn't walk at the MLB level is always going to be a free swinger that doesn't walk.

What coach do we fire for the poor defense in both the infield and outfield?

Should Don Cooper be fired for the struggles the pitching staff has had?

Who gets fired for the poor baserunning?

I respectfully disagree. How do you explain a pitcher who develops another pitch with the help of a coach, and goes on to become very successful?

Apparently you or Ranger have never heard of Dave Duncan, the longtime pitching coach under LaRussa, who has taken projects and head cases on with the Cardinals and turned them into effective pitchers

And Maybe the reason these pitchers were willing to change, was because they were taking the advice of someone who knows what the hell he is talking about..so they were willing to alter their approach.

Not to belabor the point, but again, I re iterate... why have hitting, baserunning or defense coaches when you can't hold them accountable??
the players might as well have their friends, old coaches, managers, etc. watch tape of them and get opinions, and call it a day.,..save three salaries...

TornLabrum
08-30-2009, 08:48 PM
They why in God's name even have a hitting coach if they are never going to change???

WALKER: " Hey, Nixie, I noticed you are pulling off the ball a bit too much"
NIXi: "Really. oh well, that's my swing and it's gotten me this far, no sense changing it"
WALKER: "Sorry to bother you man, yeah you're right"

Probably because a hitting coach can find the flaw in a hitter's swing, or wherever the flaw might be when he is slumping. Perhaps in giving a hitter a device to help with timing (see Fox, Nellie and Morgan, Joe). That's primarily what hitting coaches are looking for and doing from my understanding of the job.

kittle42
08-30-2009, 08:50 PM
Not to belabor the point, but again, I re iterate... why have hitting, baserunning or defense coaches when you can't hold them accountable??
the players might as well have their friends, old coaches, managers, etc. watch tape of them and get opinions, and call it a day.,..save three salaries...

I really do wish the "it's not Walker's fault" crowd would address this.

Daver
08-30-2009, 08:52 PM
I respectfully disagree. How do you explain a pitcher who develops another pitch with the help of a coach, and goes on to become very successful?

Apparently you or Ranger have never heard of Dave Duncan, the longtime pitching coach under LaRussa, who has taken projects and head cases on with the Cardinals and turned them into effective pitchers

And Maybe the reason these pitchers were willing to change, was because they were taking the advice of someone who knows what the hell he is talking about..so they were willing to alter their approach.

Not to belabor the point, but again, I re iterate... why have hitting, baserunning or defense coaches when you can't hold them accountable??
the players might as well have their friends, old coaches, managers, etc. watch tape of them and get opinions, and call it a day.,..save three salaries...

What part of observing and advising veteran hitters in my post did you miss?

And I reiterate, if you are teaching players at the MLB level, your club has much larger issues.

TheBigHurtST
08-30-2009, 08:55 PM
This is simply hysterical.

If "hysterical" means "true" in your own personal dictionary... whatever. I'm not even going to argue this point, it's an absolute fact. Well, I guess I'll have to retract the word "most" and replace it with "many" and it will be.

TheBigHurtST
08-30-2009, 08:57 PM
What part of observing and advising veteran hitters in my post did you miss?

And I reiterate, if you are teaching players at the MLB level, your club has much larger issues.

I also implore you to answer his question, because your point of view baffles me. You NEVER stop learning, not at any level. Otherwise, why would we need coaches for anything? News flash: the players are not always one step ahead. Ohterwise why would we need a manager/coach to put plays on and instruct the players how to position and whatnot?

I really need some actual insight from you, because so far your posts are making NO sense to me. Either I'm missing something from your perspective or you are really misinformed.

Brian26
08-30-2009, 09:02 PM
You NEVER stop learning, not at any level. Otherwise, why would we need coaches for anything?

Christ, he's answered this three times already in the past two pages of this thread. Are you not capable of reading?

Daver
08-30-2009, 09:05 PM
If "hysterical" means "true" in your own personal dictionary... whatever. I'm not even going to argue this point, it's an absolute fact. Well, I guess I'll have to retract the word "most" and replace it with "many" and it will be.

The misguided and misused stat of Quality Starts does not include offensive numbers from the pitchers own team for a reason, they are not responsible for how the pitcher pitches.

TheBigHurtST
08-30-2009, 09:16 PM
The misguided and misused stat of Quality Starts does not include offensive numbers from the pitchers own team for a reason, they are not responsible for how the pitcher pitches.

So if a starter gives up 1-2 runs in 7+ innings and the offense scores 0 runs (the Sox do this OFTEN), the offense "isn't responsible?"

I stand by my point. The Sox's pitching has constantly been screwed by the offense inability to score runs. Is it your opinion that we should give up 0 runs in every single start? Even if we DID that, you can't win a game without scoring runs; it's just that simple.

Nellie_Fox
08-30-2009, 11:13 PM
Can someone show me five teams who fired their hitting coach and the replacement made a noticeable with the same talent? How about one team?

Dump:

If memory serves when the Indians fired Eddie Murray as hitting coach, they got measurably better. Or it could be when they fired whomever and hired Murray...I'm sorry I can't recall specifically but I do think they got much better as a team hitting wise when they made a change.

LipIt was in 2005 that the Indians fired Murray and then went on a run. Some here might remember that run.

However, finding one, or even five, examples doesn't prove much. Sheer random chance says that some teams will go on a run after a coach is fired. That doesn't mean they wouldn't have gone on the run anyway.

TDog
08-31-2009, 12:44 AM
The only hitting coach I have ever seen that could do it was Walt Hrniak, and then only if the player had the self discipline to accept Walt's system completely, not many did aside from Frank Thomas.

Robin Ventura may have been another. He was a great college hitter who completely changed his style when he signed with the White Sox, committing totally to Walt Hriniak's system.

Of course, people are looking for scapegoats. The White Sox lost three games on the current road trip with home runs in the opponentss last at bat -- in the 8th, 9th and 10th innings. The last roadtrip ended with the White Sox giving up a home run in the ninth inning. In those four games, four different pitchers gave up the home runs. And people are looking for Greg Walker to be fired.

What would it take to for Walker to be fired? It would take someone exercising authority without understanding why nothing is going right for this team.

TheBigHurtST
08-31-2009, 01:27 AM
Of course, people are looking for scapegoats. The White Sox lost three games on the current road trip with home runs in the opponentss last at bat -- in the 8th, 9th and 10th innings. The last roadtrip ended with the White Sox giving up a home run in the ninth inning. In those four games, four different pitchers gave up the home runs. And people are looking for Greg Walker to be fired.


Uh, people have been looking for Walker to be fired for many years now. Scapegoats? OK! If the HITTING COACH is not at ALL responsible for the HITTING problems on this team, then why the **** is his title, "HITTING COACH?"

Sorry for the belligerent post, but it just irritates me that people that defend Walker never seem to have any real arguable points. A hitting coach HAS to be at least partially responsible for his team's hitting success. No argument. Otherwise why have one at all? Is it a charity job just to give some guy money? LOL.

southside rocks
08-31-2009, 06:45 AM
Uh, people have been looking for Walker to be fired for many years now. Scapegoats? OK! If the HITTING COACH is not at ALL responsible for the HITTING problems on this team, then why the **** is his title, "HITTING COACH?"

Sorry for the belligerent post, but it just irritates me that people that defend Walker never seem to have any real arguable points. A hitting coach HAS to be at least partially responsible for his team's hitting success. No argument. Otherwise why have one at all? Is it a charity job just to give some guy money? LOL.


I think you are missing the distinction between PREPARATION and EXECUTION.

A coach, any coach, can help a player prepare until the coach is blue in the face. He can go over pitchers, plan batting approaches, critique batting practice, suggest different drills or exercises he thinks would help, and look endlessly for mechanical flaws in the batter and try to get the batter to correct them.

That's preparation. AND NOBODY ON THIS BOARD HAS THE FAINTEST IDEA HOW GREG WALKER GOES ABOUT PREPARING HITTERS.

Then there's execution. The player walks up to the plate, in a game situation, armed with all the preparation that the coach has assisted; the player also has his own mental bugaboos, worries, and stresses; the player has his own physical concerns that day; and the player has to take all of that and produce. Major league players do this as a matter of course. But they do not always produce good results, else every batter would hit .400 all season long.

Everybody on this board knows how the White Sox batters are producing, because WE CAN SEE IT (that is, until we turn off the game in disgust).

So I don't understand why people insist that the fault lies with the part of that equation -- preparation -- that they can't see, rather than with the part of that equation -- execution -- that they can see.

Two possibilities occur to me. One: people assume that poor production MUST BE because of poor preparation. That's illogical. The other: scapegoating Walker. That's stupid.

johnnyg83
08-31-2009, 07:32 AM
If the hitting coach isn't responsible for the team's hitting what the hell is he responsible for?

DumpJerry
08-31-2009, 07:56 AM
If the hitting coach isn't responsible for the team's hitting what the hell is he responsible for?
Ummmm......the people swinging (or not swinging) the bats?

Just a wild guess, but I'm going to run with it....

white sox bill
08-31-2009, 08:11 AM
If the hitting coach isn't responsible for the team's hitting what the hell is he responsible for?
As much as I too feel this way, its a bit skewed. This is like driving down the road and seeing a car coming at you in the opposite lane. Is it HIS reponsibility to make sure he doesn't swerve over and hit you head on? Or is it YOURS to make sure you stay in your lane?

dickallen15
08-31-2009, 08:44 AM
If the hitting coach isn't responsible for the team's hitting what the hell is he responsible for?
Its the hitting coach's job to maximize the abilities of the hitters. Is it really Greg Walker's fault Brent Lillibridge can't hit?

Blaming Walker for the White Sox hitting woes, is like blaming the baserunning coach for Konerko and Thome's lack of steals and inability to go from first to third on a single. Which hitters are doing a lot worse than can be expected?

soxfanreggie
08-31-2009, 09:22 AM
Blaming Walker for the White Sox hitting woes, is like blaming the baserunning coach for Konerko and Thome's lack of steals and inability to go from first to third on a single.

Wouldn't it be more on the strength and conditioning coach that they aren't fast enough? I have no idea if PK and Thome have good running form, not something I study. However, their lack of speed would be on themselves and the s&c coach. The baserunning coach would be more for technique/fundamentals and not physical attributes.

I have players on the team I work with who have great technique/fundamentals; they just don't have the speed to go along with it. On the other hand, I have players who are freakishly fast, and they can't seem to grasp the concept of how to properly go into a bag.

fram40
08-31-2009, 10:21 AM
Who gets fired for the poor baserunning?

Tim Raines!

In regards to Carlton Fisk's failure to mentor younger players, it was not his job to do that when he was player. Perhaps his hands were filled preparing for games - especially as a catcher who must do copious amounts of preparation not only to hit but to call a game as well. If he was hired as a coach, his role would be only coaching.

I have one question - who prepares a "game plan" for facing the opponent's pitchers? I would assume it to be the hitting coach - Greg Walker - but I read once (on this site) that Joey Cora has that role on the Sox. Because it often seems that the Sox are ill-prepared for pitchers. Swinging at the first pitch when patience would be a better plan, swinging for the fences when going opposite-field would be a better plan, etc.

How many times must I watch other teams hit successfully against crappy pitchers (e.g, Cy Mitre) that we flail against? How many crappy pitchers look like Cy Young against us? Isn't lack of a game plan part of the problem? I am sick and tired of seeing the same failure for the fourth season now.

Look at how other teams approach Mark Buehrle. Teams that attempt to pull him usually look bad and do not succeed. Teams that take what he gives them and go the other way with pitches (e.g., Oakland) have success more often.

So who is responsible for the offensive game plans on the Sox?

dickallen15
08-31-2009, 10:47 AM
Wouldn't it be more on the strength and conditioning coach that they aren't fast enough? I have no idea if PK and Thome have good running form, not something I study. However, their lack of speed would be on themselves and the s&c coach. The baserunning coach would be more for technique/fundamentals and not physical attributes.

I have players on the team I work with who have great technique/fundamentals; they just don't have the speed to go along with it. On the other hand, I have players who are freakishly fast, and they can't seem to grasp the concept of how to properly go into a bag.

So if they fail, its your fault. That's what people are saying about Walker. The White Sox really don't have anyone who isn't putting up the numbers expected for themselves except for maybe Quentin but he's been hurt. The problem is people seem to think fantasy baseball and real baseball are basically the same, your guys throw up a bunch of numbers and that determines whether you win or not. There is more to offense than numbers. The White Sox have slowly addressed that problem over the past several seasons. Once the team rids itself of a heart of an order that is streaky and is comprised of slow, station to station guys, their offense will become more consistent. If they are replaced by bad players it will be consistently bad, but pretty consistent. As long as Konerko and Dye and Thome and AJ are in the line-up, 7 or 8 runs for 2 or 3 games and 1 or 2 for 3 or 4 will be the norm especially with guys like Nix and Wise and Lillibridge thrown in.

Tragg
08-31-2009, 10:57 AM
Beckham is in a slump. He seems to be trying to pull everything. Now, is Walker working with him to get back to patience, using the plate, going the other way? I don't know the answer to that but I would think that's what a good hitting coach would do.
Or is he telling him to keep swinging and stay aggressive?

khan
08-31-2009, 11:15 AM
I don't know if Walker should be fired at this point, but I think that every coach should be evaluated after every season.

Having said that, I'm amazed that there are other coaches in this and other organizations that have had a positive influence on players and their performances AT the MLB level. [Dave Duncan, Rudy Jaramillo, Don Cooper, etc...]

We've seen coaches in this and other organizations get fired for not performing their duties to a sufficient level. [I'm still wondering why Raines was fired; Since he's been gone, the then-crappy baserunning has gotten even crappier.]

Yet, despite all of this, Greg Walker can't be held to account for some reason. Greg Walker can't be replaced, for some reason. NOTHING is Greg Walker's fault, apparently, because nothing is EVER the hitting coach's fault, right?

There are a few rookies in this team that NEED some help in improving their swings/getting out of slumps. There is a veteran with a grotesquely-obese salary who ****ting his pants. THESE are CLEAR-CUT opportunities for a hitting coach to earn his keep. There have been other opportunities in this and previous seasons for the hitting coach to prove his worth. I think it is reasonable to expect a hitting coach to help these players HIT better.


Otherwise, why bother with having a hitting coach?

Lip Man 1
08-31-2009, 11:29 AM
Daver:

I was just answering Dump's question, not making a statement on if it is right to fire Walker or not.

Personally like I said, the problem is the Sox have too many of the same type of hitter on the roster and have this decade save for 2005.

Lip

TDog
08-31-2009, 11:35 AM
I think you are missing the distinction between PREPARATION and EXECUTION. ....

Ironically, execution is a key word here. The White Sox are having are failing. Because they aren't executing, someone must be executed. For years, people have wanted to make Greg Walker the scapegoat.

It is interesting that Dave Duncan should be held up as an example of a good coach that gets the most out of players. When Dave Duncan was fired as the White Sox pitching coach, Carlton Fisk criticized the White Sox organization for making him a scapegoat.

Beckham slumping has more to do with him being moved up in the order than it does with Walker.

dickallen15
08-31-2009, 11:35 AM
I don't know if Walker should be fired at this point, but I think that every coach should be evaluated after every season.

Having said that, I'm amazed that there are other coaches in this and other organizations that have had a positive influence on players and their performances AT the MLB level. [Dave Duncan, Rudy Jaramillo, Don Cooper, etc...]

We've seen coaches in this and other organizations get fired for not performing their duties to a sufficient level. [I'm still wondering why Raines was fired; Since he's been gone, the then-crappy baserunning has gotten even crappier.]

Yet, despite all of this, Greg Walker can't be held to account for some reason. Greg Walker can't be replaced, for some reason. NOTHING is Greg Walker's fault, apparently, because nothing is EVER the hitting coach's fault, right?

There are a few rookies in this team that NEED some help in improving their swings/getting out of slumps. There is a veteran with a grotesquely-obese salary who ****ting his pants. THESE are CLEAR-CUT opportunities for a hitting coach to earn his keep. There have been other opportunities in this and previous seasons for the hitting coach to prove his worth. I think it is reasonable to expect a hitting coach to help these players HIT better.


Otherwise, why bother with having a hitting coach?

Jaramillo is a pretty good example of how you can't just use stats to judge a hitting coach. He is supposed to be a guru. Everyone would like to have him, yet the Rangers have a lower OBP and BA than the White Sox and their park is just as much a hitter's haven if not moreso as USCF.

If the Sox had a bunch of underperforming guys, maybe firing Walker should be considered. The problem is no one has mentioned a specific player Walker has failed, and for some reason if anyone does well, these same posters say its in spite of Walker he has nothing to do with it.

khan
08-31-2009, 11:57 AM
Jaramillo is a pretty good example of how you can't just use stats to judge a hitting coach. He is supposed to be a guru. Everyone would like to have him, yet the Rangers have a lower OBP and BA than the White Sox and their park is just as much a hitter's haven if not moreso as USCF.
If you use the least-descriptive numbers, BA and OBP, you can derive the wrong conclusions. For the record, here are the differences in BA/OBP:

Texas: .258/.320
SOX: .259/.330

More importantly, these are much more informative and descriptive of a team's offensive abilities:

Texas: 623 Runs Scored; OPS: .774
SOX: 599 Runs Scored; OPS: .750

Despite a .010 advantage in OBP, the SOX are .024 behind Texas in Slugging. The Sox have scored 24 fewer runs. Jaramillo is a fine hitting coach.

What are your explainations for Duncan and Cooper? I'm honestly curious.

If the Sox had a bunch of underperforming guys, maybe firing Walker should be considered. The problem is no one has mentioned a specific player Walker has failed, and for some reason if anyone does well, these same posters say its in spite of Walker he has nothing to do with it.
Well, Alex Rios is still ****ting his pants, isn't he?
Brent Lillibridge didn't exactly learn much when he was here, did he?
Beckham hasn't exactly made any improvements of late, has he?

We could go on, but you'll probably just move the goalposts.

What does a hitting coach do? Why is it that THIS coaching position has little to no impact on player performance, but OTHER positions have demonstratively improved player performance? Why is it that the hitting coach ALONE, in ALL of sport, has such little impact? Other coaching positions, in this and other sports seem to make an impact on a player's performance, no?

Paulwny
08-31-2009, 12:03 PM
What does a hitting coach do? Why is it that THIS coaching position has little to no impact on player performance, but OTHER positions have demonstratively improved player performance? Why is it that the hitting coach ALONE, in ALL of sport, has such little impact? Other coaching positions, in this and other sports seem to make an impact on a player's performance, no?

According to this hitting coach, they can't teach hitting.
Interesting article.

http://baseballtips.com/13reasons.html

dickallen15
08-31-2009, 12:11 PM
If you use the least-descriptive numbers, BA and OBP, you can derive the wrong conclusions. For the record, here are the differences in BA/OBP:

Texas: .258/.320
SOX: .259/.330

More importantly, these are much more informative and descriptive of a team's offensive abilities:

Texas: 623 Runs Scored; OPS: .774
SOX: 599 Runs Scored; OPS: .750

Despite a .010 advantage in OBP, the SOX are .024 behind Texas in Slugging. The Sox have scored 24 fewer runs. Jaramillo is a fine hitting coach.

What are your explainations for Duncan and Cooper? I'm honestly curious.


Well, Alex Rios is still ****ting his pants, isn't he?
Brent Lillibridge didn't exactly learn much when he was here, did he?
Beckham hasn't exactly made any improvements of late, has he?

We could go on, but you'll probably just move the goalposts.

What does a hitting coach do? Why is it that THIS coaching position has little to no impact on player performance, but OTHER positions have demonstratively improved player performance? Why is it that the hitting coach ALONE, in ALL of sport, has such little impact? Other coaching positions, in this and other sports seem to make an impact on a player's performance, no?

Lillibridge can't hit no matter who coaches him. That's my point. If Beckham is supposed to hit .330 and then get better and better using your logic with a decent hitting coach, he'll hit about .730 in a few years. Its funny KW called the Sox a bunch of underachievers and spent $60 million on Alex Rios who only was available because he was an underachiever.

Texas has scored more runs because they have hit more homers, something the Sox have done in recent years but everyone still wanted Walker fired.

If Rios in about 40 AB, Lillibridge and Beckham's recent struggles are your case that Walker must go, there isn't anyone alive capable of being your hitting coach.

As for Duncan, the Sox fired him for basically the same reason most want Walker fired. Poor results, send a message, someone needs to be a scapegoat. The problem is poor personnel usually gives you poor results. Firing Walker accomplishes nothing, and who is going to replace him? Many mention Baines. How does anyone on this board know how Baines would handle being a hitting coach?

Jaramillo is a fine coach and Walker sucks because the Rangers score 1 more run every 5 games. That's brilliant.

1989
08-31-2009, 12:19 PM
Because that does not address the problem. The Cubs tried it this year and it did nothing for them.

Can someone show me five teams who fired their hitting coach and the replacement made a noticeable with the same talent? How about one team?

Indians 2005

DumpJerry
08-31-2009, 12:22 PM
Indians 2005
Failed in the last week of the season when it mattered most.

Failed to make the playoffs when the Wild Card was sitting on the silver platter with their name engraved on it. During the last series with the Sox when all they had to do as win one bloody game, they got swept by AA and AAA players from the Sox' system as Ozzie rested the guys for the playoffs.

dickallen15
08-31-2009, 12:23 PM
Failed in the last week of the season when it mattered most.

Failed to make the playoffs when the Wild Card was sitting on the silver platter with their name engraved on it. During the last series with the Sox when all they had to do as win one bloody game, they got swept by AA and AAA players from the Sox' system as Ozzie rested the guys for the playoffs.

Also the players were relieved Murray was gone as he was quite hated by that team. They said it was miserable around him. Sort of the same set of circumstances that cost Hrniak and Gary Ward their jobs with the White Sox.

khan
08-31-2009, 12:24 PM
Lillibridge can't hit no matter who coaches him. That's my point. If Beckham is supposed to hit .330 and then get better and better using your logic with a decent hitting coach, he'll hit about .730 in a few years.
The company line, and the line of most FOGW is that "the veterans will just do what they do, but maybe you can work with the younger players." Beckham is in a slump, wherein his average has plummeted some 35 points. THIS is an opportunity for Walker to show his worth: A talented young player, who is likely still coachable. We'll see if it actually happens.

Also, feel free to show where I posted "Beckham is supposed to hit .330."

Texas has scored more runs because they have hit more homers, something the Sox have done in recent years but everyone still wanted Walker fired.
Texas is also much, much more consistent, if you look at their results.

If Rios in about 40 AB, Lillibridge and Beckham's recent struggles are your case that Walker must go, there isn't anyone alive capable of being your hitting coach.
These are only 3 of many other examples of Walker's shortcomings over his tenure.

Josh Fields [a player Walker instructed in the minor leagues] was supposed to be a golden god, right?

As for Duncan,

Yes, what about Duncan? Why is it that HE can improve his players' performance? Also, what about Cooper? Why is it that HE can improve his players' performance? [For the record, this is the 2nd time I've asked you this question, yet you haven't bothered to address it.]

Also, exactly what is a hitting coach supposed to do? If he can't improve a player's performance, why bother having a hitting coach? [This too has been asked a number of times from the FOGW crew.]

EDIT: Again, I'm not strongly on the "Fire Greg Walker" bandwagon. But it IS curious that the FOGW crew have every built-in excuse for why he can't improve players' performances, while there are other coaches in baseball that have done exactly that.

soxfanreggie
08-31-2009, 12:27 PM
So if they fail, its your fault. That's what people are saying about Walker.

Well, regardless if it's the "fault" of the coaching staff for them failing, (our) jobs are on the line. To add to that, coaches (at my level) are also the GMs and responsible for bringing in the players. So, if they don't produce, you either get faulted for not coaching them well enough or faulted for recruiting players who can't produce.

To equate that to the pros, either the GM/coaching staff/scouts who are responsible for bringing in the players didn't do their job or the coaches responsible for honing their skills didn't do their jobs. Which one do you think it is in this instance? Either they brought in the wrong players to begin with thinking that they could do the job or they didn't coach them correctly once they got there.

In the business world, it's the same way. I can't sit and do the job of every person who works for me nor review every single thing they do. However I am responsible for their work. Sometimes when you get the "big boy" salary, you take on more responsibility than what you can control. Walker gets paid a "big boy" salary, and thus, may be responsible for more than he can control.

dickallen15
08-31-2009, 12:34 PM
The company line, and the line of most FOGW is that "the veterans will just do what they do, but maybe you can work with the younger players." Beckham is in a slump, wherein his average has plummeted some 35 points. THIS is an opportunity for Walker to show his worth: A talented young player, who is likely still coachable. We'll see if it actually happens.

Also, feel free to show where I posted "Beckham is supposed to hit .330."


Texas is also much, much more consistent, if you look at their results.


These are only 3 of many other examples of Walker's shortcomings over his tenure.

Josh Fields [a player Walker instructed in the minor leagues] was supposed to be a golden god, right?



Yes, what about Duncan? Why is it that HE can improve his players' performance? Also, what about Cooper? Why is it that HE can improve his players' performance? [For the record, this is the 2nd time I've asked you this question, yet you haven't bothered to address it.]

Also, exactly what is a hitting coach supposed to do? If he can't improve a player's performance, why bother having a hitting coach? [This too has been asked a number of times from the FOGW crew.]

If a hitting coach is supposed to make everyone a star, how come no team ever hits .400 for a season? Beckham is a rookie, if you don't think rookies tend to struggle occassionally, and every player goes into a slump, I'd like to know when you started watching baseball. Duncan was fired from the White Sox in the exact manor you wish the Sox to fire Walker. He had crap and couldn't make it anything so they dumped him. If Jaramillo was traded for Walker, there wouldn't be much difference in the performance of the players for either team. Walker is a decent hitting coach.
Dye, Konerko, Thome all improved under Walker. Konerko was hitting well below .200 in 2003 when Walker took over. Pods is doing better than he did in Colorado. Quentin is a better hitter than he was in AZ. Beckham has a decent shot at rookie of the year and many here thought the Sox were rushing him. AJP has had a nice year. Ramirez is a lot better than he was pegged to be or he would have received far more than $4 million total for 4 years. Your argument holds no water.

DumpJerry
08-31-2009, 12:38 PM
Also the players were relieved Murray was gone as he was quite hated by that team. They said it was miserable around him. Sort of the same set of circumstances that cost Hrniak and Gary Ward their jobs with the White Sox.
There have been no reports, rumors or whispers that the players feel this way about Walker.

dickallen15
08-31-2009, 12:42 PM
There have been no reports, rumors or whispers that the players feel this way about Walker.

Exactly. Its just the opposite. He's well liked and respected. The argument seems to be it can never be on the players. If a team doesn't hit, its the hitting coach's fault. If you have a great hitting coach, you can take 9 guys off the street and in a couple of days, they should be hitting .300.

khan
08-31-2009, 12:55 PM
If a hitting coach is supposed to make everyone a star, how come no team ever hits .400 for a season?
And show us where I posted this.

Beckham is a rookie, if you don't think rookies tend to struggle occassionally, and every player goes into a slump,
I'd like to know where you saw me post this. I DID post that Beckham's struggles represent an opportunity for Greg Walker to prove his worth.

Duncan was fired from the White Sox in the exact manor you wish the Sox to fire Walker.
Show us where I posted this, too. Show us where I posted, "I'd like the Sox to fire Walker." If you don't find it in this thread, you'll apologize, right?

I HAVE asked you why Duncan can improve his players' performance. Can you explain this? [3 times, now, BTW...]

Walker is a decent hitting coach.
Dye, Konerko, Thome all improved under Walker.
Why do you feel that Walker is a decent hitting coach?

I disagree with your suppositions with respect to Dye/Konerko/Thome:

Thome will go to the Hall of Fame, based on his previous body of work, not based on his time under Walker.

Dye has enjoyed some of his better years, but I attribute that more to him hitting in USCF, a hitter's park, as opposed to the pitcher's park in Oakland. In addition, Dye's health has improved as well, which contributes to his improved performance in recent years.

Konerko continues to be as streaky as he was before Walker came into the hitting coach's position.

Pods is doing better than he did in Colorado. Quentin is a better hitter than he was in AZ.
Both are merely more healthy this season than they were in previous seasons. [Well, Pods anyway; Quentin, not so much, but then he isn't exactly hitting as much as he did a year ago, either...]

Beckham has a decent shot at rookie of the year and many here thought the Sox were rushing him. AJP has had a nice year. Ramirez is a lot better than he was pegged to be or he would have received far more than $4 million total for 4 years. Your argument holds no water.
What argument?

I've asked you to explain why Dave Duncan and Don Cooper can improve their players' performance, but Greg Walker can't be expected to improve his players' performances.

You cited Dye/Thome/Konerko, none of whom have improved with Walker as their hitting coach. You cited Pods/Quentin, both of whom have improved health to thank for their improved performances. You cited AJP, but he's doing what he always does. You cited Beckham, who is in a slump, and I've stated that this is an opportunity for Walker to prove himself. With Ramirez, salaries in MLB have little correlation to performance.


Again, I'll ask nicely:

1. Show us where I posted some of the things you're purporting me to have posted.

2. Tell us why Dave Duncan and Don Cooper can improve their players' performances.

3. Tell us exactly what a hitting coach does.

4. Tell us why it is unreasonable to ask the hitting coach to improve a hitter's performance.

Thanks!

Nellie_Fox
08-31-2009, 01:07 PM
Lillibridge can't hit no matter who coaches him. I think guys like Lillibridge are an example of where "old school" could be helpful. Why is every little player out there with a light bat, holding it all the way down at the knob? Guys like him used to get a heavier bat and choke up about six inches, learn to "place hit." When's the last time you saw ANYBODY choke up five or six inches?

dickallen15
08-31-2009, 01:14 PM
And show us where I posted this.


I'd like to know where you saw me post this. I DID post that Beckham's struggles represent an opportunity for Greg Walker to prove his worth.


Show us where I posted this, too. Show us where I posted, "I'd like the Sox to fire Walker." If you don't find it in this thread, you'll apologize, right?

I HAVE asked you why Duncan can improve his players' performance. Can you explain this? [3 times, now, BTW...]


Why do you feel that Walker is a decent hitting coach?

I disagree with your suppositions with respect to Dye/Konerko/Thome:

Thome will go to the Hall of Fame, based on his previous body of work, not based on his time under Walker.

Dye has enjoyed some of his better years, but I attribute that more to him hitting in USCF, a hitter's park, as opposed to the pitcher's park in Oakland.

Konerko continues to be as streaky as he was before Walker came into the hitting coach's position.


Both are merely more healthy this season than they were in previous seasons. [Well, Pods anyway; Quentin, not so much, but then he isn't exactly hitting as much as he did a year ago, either...]


What argument?

I've asked you to explain why Dave Duncan and Don Cooper can improve their players' performance, but Greg Walker can't be expected to improve his players' performances.

You cited Dye/Thome/Konerko, none of whom have improved with Walker as their hitting coach. You cited Pods/Quentin, both of whom have improved health to thank for their improved performances. You cited AJP, but he's doing what he always does. You cited Beckham, who is in a slump, and I've stated that this is an opportunity for Walker to prove himself. With Ramirez, salaries in MLB have little correlation to performance.


Again, I'll ask nicely:

1. Show us where I posted some of the things you're purporting me to have posted.

2. Tell us why Dave Duncan and Don Cooper can improve their players' performances.

3. Tell us exactly what a hitting coach does.

4. Tell us why it is unreasonable to ask the hitting coach to improve a hitter's performance.

Thanks!

I just pointed out a few examples of guys that improved under Greg Walker. Cooper and Duncan have had their share of guys they couldn't make Cy Young contenders as well. Did Cooper really improve Javy Vazquez? OMG, he should be fired. Duncan did get fired, by the White Sox. Apparently every pitcher just didn't keep getting better and better. Give a coach better players, they become a lot smarter. Give them terrible players, guys like Lillibridge who you mentioned as a Walker failure, a guy who hit .220 in AAA with a ton of strikeouts, make you look like an idiot. That is my answer. If you still think Walker needs to be fired because Josh Fields isn't going to the HOF, fine. We disagree, and you aren't going to change my mind unless you give me some solid examples of guys who did great under other people but couldn't do anything when they came to the Sox or guys who were bad with the Sox but became hitting machines elsewhere. Maybe Swisher qualifies but remember this, he was sent packing in part because he didn't listen to Walker. His father is his hitting coach. So, some examples please.

dickallen15
08-31-2009, 01:15 PM
I think guys like Lillibridge are an example of where "old school" could be helpful. Why is every little player out there with a light bat, holding it all the way down at the knob? Guys like him used to get a heavier bat and choke up about six inches, learn to "place hit." When's the last time you saw ANYBODY choke up five or six inches?

He's certainly never going to hit with the approach he uses and has been told that repeatedly, by a lot of people besides Walker. Even Ozzie has talked to him.

khan
08-31-2009, 01:25 PM
I just pointed out a few examples of guys that improved under Greg Walker.

No offense, but you were wrong on pretty much every one of them. Do you really want to compare Thome as a White Sox to his previous work with other hitting coaches? Do you really want to compare the injured versions of Pods/Quentin/Dye to the currently-healthy versions?

If anything, the trainers and fitness gurus that have worked with Pods/Dye should be thanked moreso than anything else. Quentin's lack of health this season has impeded him more than anything else.


Cooper and Duncan
Yes, what about Cooper and Duncan? I've asked you [politely, BTW] to explain the conundrum in baseball that illustrates that some coaches can improve their players' performances, but other coaches cannot. I've asked you why Cooper and Duncan have had success, but Walker has not done so to the same degree. I've asked your opinion on this matter, but you haven't bothered to answer for some reason.

How is it that Cooper can take a previously-failing guy like Thornton, and make him into the best setup man in baseball? How is it that Cooper can help resurrect Floyd's previously-faltering career? How is it that Duncan can take a middling collection of talent, and coax the types of performances he's done in recent years? How is it that Duncan has been able to squeeze the last bits of efficacy from a fossil like Smoltz, as he's done in other seasons with other players?

Again, I'll ask nicely:

1. Show us where I posted some of the things you're purporting me to have posted.

2. Tell us why Dave Duncan and Don Cooper can improve their players' performances.

3. Tell us exactly what a hitting coach does.

4. Tell us why it is unreasonable to ask the hitting coach to improve a hitter's performance.

Thanks!

35th and Shields
08-31-2009, 01:32 PM
Why do you feel that Walker is a decent hitting coach?

I disagree with your suppositions with respect to Dye/Konerko/Thome:

Thome will go to the Hall of Fame, based on his previous body of work, not based on his time under Walker.

Dye has enjoyed some of his better years, but I attribute that more to him hitting in USCF, a hitter's park, as opposed to the pitcher's park in Oakland. In addition, Dye's health has improved as well, which contributes to his improved performance in recent years.

Konerko continues to be as streaky as he was before Walker came into the hitting coach's position.


Both are merely more healthy this season than they were in previous seasons. [Well, Pods anyway; Quentin, not so much, but then he isn't exactly hitting as much as he did a year ago, either...

If you're going to criticize Walker for the offensive shortcomings, you have to give him credit when players develop into good hitters.

dickallen15
08-31-2009, 01:37 PM
No offense, but you were wrong on pretty much every one of them. Do you really want to compare Thome as a White Sox to his previous work with other hitting coaches? Do you really want to compare the injured versions of Pods/Quentin/Dye to the currently-healthy versions?

If anything, the trainers and fitness gurus that have worked with Pods/Dye should be thanked moreso than anything else. Quentin's lack of health this season has impeded him more than anything else.



Yes, what about Cooper and Duncan? I've asked you [politely, BTW] to explain the conundrum in baseball that illustrates that some coaches can improve their players' performances, but other coaches cannot. I've asked you why Cooper and Duncan have had success, but Walker has not done so to the same degree. I've asked your opinion on this matter, but you haven't bothered to answer for some reason.

How is it that Cooper can take a previously-failing guy like Thornton, and make him into the best setup man in baseball? How is it that Cooper can help resurrect Floyd's previously-faltering career? How is it that Duncan can take a middling collection of talent, and coax the types of performances he's done in recent years? How is it that Duncan has been able to squeeze the last bits of efficacy from a fossil like Smoltz, as he's done in other seasons with other players?

Again, I'll ask nicely:

1. Show us where I posted some of the things you're purporting me to have posted.

2. Tell us why Dave Duncan and Don Cooper can improve their players' performances.

3. Tell us exactly what a hitting coach does.

4. Tell us why it is unreasonable to ask the hitting coach to improve a hitter's performance.

Thanks!

He has improved the hitters performance. But I point them out and you won't give him any credit. What did Thome hit in Philadelphia? Check out his first season with the Sox. Now he's 39 years old, there should be a drop off expected. When he signed his contract, not many thought his option year being picked up would ever happen. Well, it happened.Dye never had the success anywhere else he had in 2006. Quentin was traded for a A ball first baseman and might have been the AL MVP last year. Pods hit .240 in Milwaukee and was brutal and released by Colorado last year. Ramirez was supposed to be a back-up infielder at best with zero power. You're right, I guess all my examples are wrong. Everyone Walker touches just sucks. As I asked, point out who was much better before and/or much better after they came to the Sox. . You won't find any. I'm done responding to your garbage. Also, give me the name of a guy who will make it all better. Who should be the Sox hitting coach?

dickallen15
08-31-2009, 01:39 PM
If you're going to criticize Walker for the offensive shortcomings, you have to give him credit when players develop into good hitters.

Youre right, but guys like this are just trying to cause trouble. He's just showing how very little he knows about the game. His 3 examples of Walker's failing is telling, Rios, Lillibridge and Fields. Rios in about 10 games and name one guy who has a legit shot of making the other 2 major leaguers.

Cangelosi CF
08-31-2009, 01:47 PM
I've been beating the drum for the White Sox to sack Greg Walker for a while now.

Currently 9th in team OBP and team BA.

The White Sox have done poorly since he's been the hitting coach.

2008: 11th in team BA, 9th in OBP
2007: 14th in team BA, 14th in OBP
2006: 4th in team BA, 6th in OBP
2005: 11th in team BA, 11th in OBP
2004: 8th in team BA, 8th in team OBP

one year of above average performance. the rest is below average or crap.

mantis1212
08-31-2009, 01:52 PM
Yes, fans put way too much stock in what a hitting coach does and the control he has. He's there to make sure guys get their pre-game work in and make sure they have the information they need. And he's there to lsiten to them and tell them to relax. They get all of those things, trust me.

I've read through this whole thread and I see this as the only justification for NOT firing Greg Walker. I do believe, however, his job title should be changed to "batting cage administrator" if that is the case.

khan
08-31-2009, 01:53 PM
If you're going to criticize Walker for the offensive shortcomings, you have to give him credit when players develop into good hitters.

Agreed. But crediting Walker for improving players' that merely improved due to being healthy is a bit off. [See Pods, Dye, and until this year, Quentin.]

khan
08-31-2009, 02:09 PM
He has improved the hitters performance. But I point them out and you won't give him any credit.
Again, you've been wrong on virtually every case. [No offense...]

What did Thome hit in Philadelphia?
In 2004, when he was healthy, he hit: .274/.396/.581, hit 42 HR, and drove in 105, while playing 1st base.

In 2005, Thome was injured, and only played 58 games, which made him an affordable trade target. BTW, Philly wasn't exactly as good a team back then as they are now.

Check out his first season with the Sox.
Sure: Thome, while DHing, and hitting in a hitters' park hit .288/.416/.624, hit 42 HR, and drove in 109.

I don't exactly see a lot of improvement, to tell you the truth. Maybe him DHing instead of playing 1st, in a hitters' park, on a better team than he was on in Philly, with improved health are the principle reasons for his improvement.

Now he's 39 years old, there should be a drop off expected. When he signed his contract, not many thought his option year being picked up would ever happen. Well, it happened.
Again, for the reasons I've specified above.

Dye never had the success anywhere else he had in 2006.
Actually, in 2000, Dye hit .321/.390/.561, 33 HR on a ****ty KC team. With a better supporting cast, in a more hitter-friendly park, I'm guessing that some of his other numbers would have been better. [BTW, shouldn't his vast improvement have ocurred in 2005, if your postulate about Walker's efficacy has any truth?]

Quentin was traded for a A ball first baseman and might have been the AL MVP last year. Pods hit .240 in Milwaukee and was brutal and released by Colorado last year...
...Because they got healthy.

Ramirez was supposed to be a back-up infielder at best with zero power.
Says who? KW wanted him as a starter all along.

You're right, I guess all my examples are wrong.
Thank you for agreeing with me. The numbers do not lie, in that Thome and Dye have not improved while under Walker's coaching. Your opinion about Ramirez is not accurate. And your overlooking the health of Podsednik and Quentin is telling as well.

Who should be the Sox hitting coach?
Someone who, like Duncan and Cooper, has the ability to improve his players' performance.


By the way:

1. Show us where I posted some of the things you're purporting me to have posted. [That I want Walker fired, that I think Beckham should hit .330, etc...]

2. Tell us why Dave Duncan and Don Cooper can improve their players' performances.

3. Tell us exactly what a hitting coach does.

4. Tell us why it is unreasonable to ask the hitting coach to improve a hitter's performance.

Thanks!

35th and Shields
08-31-2009, 02:20 PM
Agreed. But crediting Walker for improving players' that merely improved due to being healthy is a bit off. [See Pods, Dye, and until this year, Quentin.]

If Walker was a worthless as you make him sound to be, he wouldn't be a MLB coach. Your argument makes it sound like its stupid to have a hitting coach as he can only make players worse.

You're basically saying Dye, Thome, PK and whoever are struggling right now because of Walker and have had good years when their healthy.

dickallen15
08-31-2009, 02:26 PM
Again, you've been wrong on virtually every case. [No offense...]


In 2004, when he was healthy, he hit: .274/.396/.581, hit 42 HR, and drove in 105, while playing 1st base.

In 2005, Thome was injured, and only played 58 games, which made him an affordable trade target. BTW, Philly wasn't exactly as good a team back then as they are now.


Sure: Thome, while DHing, and hitting in a hitters' park hit .288/.416/.624, hit 42 HR, and drove in 109.

I don't exactly see a lot of improvement, to tell you the truth. Maybe him DHing instead of playing 1st, in a hitters' park, on a better team than he was on in Philly, with improved health are the principle reasons for his improvement.


Again, for the reasons I've specified above.


Actually, in 2000, Dye hit .321/.390/.561, 33 HR on a ****ty KC team. With a better supporting cast, in a more hitter-friendly park, I'm guessing that some of his other numbers would have been better. [BTW, shouldn't his vast improvement have ocurred in 2005, if your postulate about Walker's efficacy has any truth?]


...Because they got healthy.


Says who? KW wanted him as a starter all along.


Thank you for agreeing with me. The numbers do not lie, in that Thome and Dye have not improved while under Walker's coaching. Your opinion about Ramirez is not accurate. And your overlooking the health of Podsednik and Quentin is telling as well.


Someone who, like Duncan and Cooper, has the ability to improve his players' performance.


By the way:

1. Show us where I posted some of the things you're purporting me to have posted. [That I want Walker fired, that I think Beckham should hit .330, etc...]

2. Tell us why Dave Duncan and Don Cooper can improve their players' performances.

3. Tell us exactly what a hitting coach does.

4. Tell us why it is unreasonable to ask the hitting coach to improve a hitter's performance.

Thanks!
So Jaramillo is an outstanding hitting coach because Texas has an OPS .024 higher than the Sox, but Walker sucks and Thome is virtually the same when his OPS rises .043. LMAO. Philadelphia is also quite a hitter's park.

I have a post, perhaps the first one you responded to as to what I feel a hitting coach's job is.

I can use health as the reasaon Cooper/Duncan "make people better". But that only applies to Walker. Of course if you ask the players, they will tell you Walker has helped them immensely, but what do they know? You have all the answers, but have no replacement name.

After reading you for a while, I really feel you probably have never played baseball except for maybe little league.

As for Beckham, you were pointing out his recent slump as part of the reason Walker has failed. Every player slumps. Beckham was hitting well over .300. If a decent coach only makes players better and better, .330 is modest, .730 is probably closer to his peak.

You're arguments are ridiculous. But keep showing everyone how little you know.

There are no replacement names, and no names of players more successful with other teams than they are with the Sox. You lose.

And if the players I mentioned only did better because they were healthy, how come Walker was unable to ruin them once they became healthy?

Also, if you use getting healthy as the sole reason someone got better, can't injuries to Konerko, Dye, Thome be used as an excuse besides their age to declining production?

khan
08-31-2009, 03:06 PM
I have a post, perhaps the first one you responded to as to what I feel a hitting coach's job is.
OK.

I can use health as the reasaon Cooper/Duncan "make people better".
Who falls into this category for Cooper? Walker has benefitted from improvements in health from Dye, Podsednik, Quentin, and Thome. What pitchers fall into the same category for Cooper?

But that only applies to Walker. Of course if you ask the players, they will tell you Walker has helped them immensely, but what do they know?
I'm sure they're eager to throw their built-in excuse and their boss under the bus. And I'm sure you're eager to throw your boss under the bus, too, right?

After reading you for a while, I really feel you probably have never played baseball except for maybe little league.
After reading you for a while, I really feel you probably have never read the supposed numbers from Dye/Thome. I really feel that you're misinformed.

As for Beckham, you were pointing out his recent slump as part of the reason Walker has failed. Every player slumps. Beckham was hitting well over .300. If a decent coach only makes players better and better, .330 is modest, .730 is probably closer to his peak.
Actually, if you read my posts, you'll see that I suggested that this is an opportunity for Walker to prove his worth.

You're arguments are ridiculous. But keep showing everyone how little you know.
You're arguments? Really? I'd suggest that you work on YOUR mastery of English, but only after checking the numbers under Walker. [With thanks to Cangelosi]:

2009: 9th in team OBP and team BA.
2008: 11th in team BA, 9th in OBP
2007: 14th in team BA, 14th in OBP
2006: 4th in team BA, 6th in OBP
2005: 11th in team BA, 11th in OBP
2004: 8th in team BA, 8th in team OBP

In a 14 team league, these aren't good results.

And if the players I mentioned only did better because they were healthy, how come Walker was unable to ruin them once they became healthy?
How come? I'll tell you how come: Because he does not have as much reach as you suggest. This could be a problem, particularly as the team gets younger and the need for coaching becomes all the more important.

Also, if you use getting healthy as the sole reason someone got better, can't injuries to Konerko, Dye, Thome be used as an excuse besides their age to declining production?
None of these guys, save for Konerko last season, had any injuries of a significant nature that impacted their performance over the course of a season. So what does this have to do with Walker's ability/inability to improve the hitters' performance? What does this have to do with the middling results? The team hasn't been in the top half of the AL while under his watch.

dickallen15
08-31-2009, 03:24 PM
OK.


Who falls into this category for Cooper? Walker has benefitted from improvements in health from Dye, Podsednik, Quentin, and Thome. What pitchers fall into the same category for Cooper?





None of these guys, save for Konerko last season, had any injuries of a significant nature that impacted their performance over the course of a season. So what does this have to do with Walker's ability/inability to improve the hitters' performance? What does this have to do with the middling results? The team hasn't been in the top half of the AL while under his watch.

You insult me saying and you don't even know about Thome's injuries since he's been with the Sox or about Dye's injuries last year and in 2007?

Feel free to name someone who was better somewhere else other than Chicago.

Also, besides career minor leaguers Fields and Lillibridge and using Rios as too small a sample size, name a White Sox not hitting what they reasonably should be hitting this year.

You'll have no names.

Ranger
08-31-2009, 03:39 PM
Bad BJ,

I think the fact that, because the hitting has been home run-or-nothing for years now, and has proven to be ineffective most of the time, it falls on Walker's shoulders more than the players. His whole hitting philosophy is wrong. They need someone with a better philosophy.

Do you even know what Greg Walker's hitting philosophy is?

dickallen15
08-31-2009, 03:39 PM
Prior to this season, Walker has been the hitting coach for 5 full seasons and part of 2003. In his 5 full seasons the Sox have been in the top 5 in runs scored 3 times, 3rd twice, 14th in the disaster of 2007 and 9th when they won the WS and no one was complaining. So his offense has been pretty good. Its too bad he couldn't make Juan Uribe an on base machine, but some things are out of a coach's control, which many here don't seem to understand. There is no one that can come in and suddenly turn the Sox into a .300 hitting team.

DumpJerry
08-31-2009, 03:48 PM
I was starting to wonder who would replace Brain Anderson as the WSI lightning rod.

Ranger
08-31-2009, 03:51 PM
They why in God's name even have a hitting coach if they are never going to change???



How many times does this question have to be answered before it's understood? Earlier in the thread, I told you the job of a hitting coach at teh major league hitting coach. Go find it.

khan
08-31-2009, 04:01 PM
You insult me saying and you don't even know about Thome's injuries since he's been with the Sox or about Dye's injuries last year and in 2007?
Three things:

1. With respect to your crammed together mish-mash of a sentence: Huh?

2. Dye had 553 PA in 2007, and 634 PA last season. Thome has had 597, 527, and 594 PA since he's been with the SOX. You have again been misinformed.

3. I have been nothing but courteous to you. You, on the other hand, have made several attempts to insult me.

Also, besides career minor leaguers Fields and Lillibridge and using Rios as too small a sample size, name a White Sox not hitting what they reasonably should be hitting this year.
Here's a better question:
Have you seen the ability in Walker to improve a player's performance, as other coaches in MLB have been able to do?

Or, if you prefer:
Are you pleased with the results?

For my part, I haven't been pleased with the results. Or, at the very least, the lack of consistency in the results. I find it uncanny that other coaches have been able to improve their players' performance. I find it strange that we as a fandom should not expect Walker to do the same.

Ranger
08-31-2009, 04:09 PM
In the business world, it's the same way. I can't sit and do the job of every person who works for me nor review every single thing they do. However I am responsible for their work. Sometimes when you get the "big boy" salary, you take on more responsibility than what you can control. Walker gets paid a "big boy" salary, and thus, may be responsible for more than he can control.


But in the business world, the supervisor makes more money than his/her subordinates. Greg Walker doesn't make more money than anyone he coaches. Not even Lillibridge.

TheBigHurtST
08-31-2009, 04:10 PM
I think you are missing the distinction between PREPARATION and EXECUTION.

A coach, any coach, can help a player prepare until the coach is blue in the face. He can go over pitchers, plan batting approaches, critique batting practice, suggest different drills or exercises he thinks would help, and look endlessly for mechanical flaws in the batter and try to get the batter to correct them.

That's preparation. AND NOBODY ON THIS BOARD HAS THE FAINTEST IDEA HOW GREG WALKER GOES ABOUT PREPARING HITTERS.

Then there's execution. The player walks up to the plate, in a game situation, armed with all the preparation that the coach has assisted; the player also has his own mental bugaboos, worries, and stresses; the player has his own physical concerns that day; and the player has to take all of that and produce. Major league players do this as a matter of course. But they do not always produce good results, else every batter would hit .400 all season long.

Everybody on this board knows how the White Sox batters are producing, because WE CAN SEE IT (that is, until we turn off the game in disgust).

So I don't understand why people insist that the fault lies with the part of that equation -- preparation -- that they can't see, rather than with the part of that equation -- execution -- that they can see.

Two possibilities occur to me. One: people assume that poor production MUST BE because of poor preparation. That's illogical. The other: scapegoating Walker. That's stupid.

I understand your point, but this makes this bizarre scenario where the hitting coach can never be at fault for his team's offensive failure. That just makes no sense. Apparently the Sox could be very LAST in every hitting category the next 3 years straight and all of you would still be saying Walker isn't to blame and shouldn't be fired. At some point this philosophy of it "not being Walker's fault" HAS to be dropped, no matter how much "insight" is behind it, otherwise as I said, there's really no point for a coach at all.

Daver
08-31-2009, 04:16 PM
I understand your point, but this makes this bizarre scenario where the hitting coach can never be at fault for his team's offensive failure. That just makes no sense.

Your assertion on the offense was the reason for the teams poor pitching made sense but this doesn't?

OK, I'm done with this thread.

Ranger
08-31-2009, 04:20 PM
Also, exactly what is a hitting coach supposed to do? If he can't improve a player's performance, why bother having a hitting coach? [This too has been asked a number of times from the FOGW crew.]

EDIT: Again, I'm not strongly on the "Fire Greg Walker" bandwagon. But it IS curious that the FOGW crew have every built-in excuse for why he can't improve players' performances, while there are other coaches in baseball that have done exactly that.


To your first point, this has been answered several times already.

To your second, there is a difference between a "reason" and an "excuse."

khan
08-31-2009, 04:38 PM
To your first point, this has been answered several times already.

To your second, there is a difference between a "reason" and an "excuse."
Ranger, at some point every person in management must be accountable for their area of responsibility. Whether its "Walker's fault" or not, the results have not been even above average in the AL over the course of his tenure. Or at a minimum, consistent. This, despite his advantage of having a very hitter-friendly park to boost his players' numbers.

At some point, when a "reason" becomes overused, or there is the same "reason" used for the same shortcoming, it becomes an "excuse." For fair, or unfair, the results have not been consistently-good over his tenure.

Whether its the "we've never seen this pitcher before" or "you've just gotta tip your cap to the other guy" or "its cold out," these are all issues that other hitters/hitting coaches must deal with over the course of the season. After awhile, the "reasons" start to sound like bull-****.

Again, I don't know if Walker should be fired at this point. But he [or more specifically, his outcomes] certainly should be evaluated, and compared to his peers.

dickallen15
08-31-2009, 05:27 PM
Ranger, at some point every person in management must be accountable for their area of responsibility. Whether its "Walker's fault" or not, the results have not been even above average in the AL over the course of his tenure. Or at a minimum, consistent. This, despite his advantage of having a very hitter-friendly park to boost his players' numbers.

At some point, when a "reason" becomes overused, or there is the same "reason" used for the same shortcoming, it becomes an "excuse." For fair, or unfair, the results have not been consistently-good over his tenure.

Whether its the "we've never seen this pitcher before" or "you've just gotta tip your cap to the other guy" or "its cold out," these are all issues that other hitters/hitting coaches must deal with over the course of the season. After awhile, the "reasons" start to sound like bull-****.

Again, I don't know if Walker should be fired at this point. But he [or more specifically, his outcomes] certainly should be evaluated, and compared to his peers.

Yet you praise Don Cooper. Since 2004 the White Sox team ERA
2004 12th
2005 2nd
2006 10th
2007 12th
2008 6th

So, below average. With Buerhle falling apart, Contreras struggling, the bullpen struggling, shouldn't he also be evaluated or does he just make pitchers better?

dickallen15
08-31-2009, 05:29 PM
Three things:

1. With respect to your crammed together mish-mash of a sentence: Huh?

2. Dye had 553 PA in 2007, and 634 PA last season. Thome has had 597, 527, and 594 PA since he's been with the SOX. You have again been misinformed.

3. I have been nothing but courteous to you. You, on the other hand, have made several attempts to insult me.


Here's a better question:
Have you seen the ability in Walker to improve a player's performance, as other coaches in MLB have been able to do?

Or, if you prefer:
Are you pleased with the results?

For my part, I haven't been pleased with the results. Or, at the very least, the lack of consistency in the results. I find it uncanny that other coaches have been able to improve their players' performance. I find it strange that we as a fandom should not expect Walker to do the same.

Dye and Thome and Konerko played hurt. Thome has a bad back. He pulled a rib cage last year. Dye had a serious quad problem in 2007 and various injuries last year. Your misinformed and inconsistent.

And as I mentioned before, Walker has improved player performance, naming names, you just wish to give him no credit.

While I wish the team was more consistent, they way they are built as I mentioned several times before, will make them prone to inconsistent run scoring.

You have no ideas for replacements, no names of players who have done better elsewhere with a good hitting coach and suffered under Walker, and really haven't named anyone who isn't living up to their billing this year.

southside rocks
08-31-2009, 05:35 PM
I understand your point, but this makes this bizarre scenario where the hitting coach can never be at fault for his team's offensive failure. That just makes no sense. Apparently the Sox could be very LAST in every hitting category the next 3 years straight and all of you would still be saying Walker isn't to blame and shouldn't be fired. At some point this philosophy of it "not being Walker's fault" HAS to be dropped, no matter how much "insight" is behind it, otherwise as I said, there's really no point for a coach at all.

Two things, and then I'll stop posting to this thread because it really has become, in Jim Leyland's words, like chewing my breakfast twice.

One: Nobody in this thread, or in any "Fire Walker!" thread, has conclusively shown that Walker is derelict in his job duties. (No one has indicated any real understanding of those duties, which is a prerequisite for ordering the termination of an employee, BTW. I'm management, I have fired people.) There are many causes of poor offensive production on a ballclub. One cause may be that the hitting coach is doing a bad job. But nobody has shown causally that Walker is the problem on the Sox currently. And no, that cause is not established by virtue of his job title.

Two: Why are some players on the Sox performing very well at the plate this year? AJ's having a really good year batting-average-wise; Podsednik is positively aglow with offensive success; Gordon Beckham has been hitting major league pitching with an acumen that belies his years. Are those three guys not subject to the "Greg Walker is incompetent" meme? Do those three guys avoid Walker? Refuse his tutelage? Run away and hide when he comes near them?

The players who are slumping are the SAME players who ALWAYS slump. It's how they perform, it's a cycle that is part of their style of play. As they get older, they seem less able to get out of slumps, which prolongs the cycle. But that's not any coach's doing. THEY are to blame for it.

TomBradley72
08-31-2009, 05:38 PM
I've asked this question many times on WSI...if the hitting coach will make a huge difference...who would you like the WSox to bring in? I think our results are mostly based on roster construction vs. Greg Walker's performance. He's had a nice long tenure, if they want to replace him, go ahead, but no one is going to turn a low OBP guy into a high OBP guy, etc....you improve that (like defense) not through coaching at the major league level, but how you construct your roster.

kufram
08-31-2009, 05:59 PM
I've asked this question many times on WSI...if the hitting coach will make a huge difference...who would you like the WSox to bring in? I think our results are mostly based on roster construction vs. Greg Walker's performance. He's had a nice long tenure, if they want to replace him, go ahead, but no one is going to turn a low OBP guy into a high OBP guy, etc....you improve that (like defense) not through coaching at the major league level, but how you construct your roster.

I think some people need an easy target. Why do a dozen professionals fail to live up to expectations? I doubt very much if it all comes down to one single common cause. I have no real knowledge of Greg Walker's job, but I doubt if he's the reason professional hitters like Konerko, Dye, Thome, etc. have had slumps.

tstrike2000
08-31-2009, 06:30 PM
Walker's not going anywhere. Daver's right in that if mlb players aren't ready to hit at that level, then your team's not in good shape. I don't personally know if Walker's a good hitting coach or not, bottom line is the personnel on the field needs a shakeup.

Ranger
08-31-2009, 06:44 PM
Two things, and then I'll stop posting to this thread because it really has become, in Jim Leyland's words, like chewing my breakfast twice.

One: Nobody in this thread, or in any "Fire Walker!" thread, has conclusively shown that Walker is derelict in his job duties. (No one has indicated any real understanding of those duties, which is a prerequisite for ordering the termination of an employee, BTW. I'm management, I have fired people.) There are many causes of poor offensive production on a ballclub. One cause may be that the hitting coach is doing a bad job. But nobody has shown causally that Walker is the problem on the Sox currently. And no, that cause is not established by virtue of his job title.

Two: Why are some players on the Sox performing very well at the plate this year? AJ's having a really good year batting-average-wise; Podsednik is positively aglow with offensive success; Gordon Beckham has been hitting major league pitching with an acumen that belies his years. Are those three guys not subject to the "Greg Walker is incompetent" meme? Do those three guys avoid Walker? Refuse his tutelage? Run away and hide when he comes near them?

The players who are slumping are the SAME players who ALWAYS slump. It's how they perform, it's a cycle that is part of their style of play. As they get older, they seem less able to get out of slumps, which prolongs the cycle. But that's not any coach's doing. THEY are to blame for it.

I've asked this question many times on WSI...if the hitting coach will make a huge difference...who would you like the WSox to bring in? I think our results are mostly based on roster construction vs. Greg Walker's performance. He's had a nice long tenure, if they want to replace him, go ahead, but no one is going to turn a low OBP guy into a high OBP guy, etc....you improve that (like defense) not through coaching at the major league level, but how you construct your roster.

I think some people need an easy target. Why do a dozen professionals fail to live up to expectations? I doubt very much if it all comes down to one single common cause. I have no real knowledge of Greg Walker's job, but I doubt if he's the reason professional hitters like Konerko, Dye, Thome, etc. have had slumps.

Yes, yes, and yes.

TheBigHurtST
08-31-2009, 10:24 PM
Yet you praise Don Cooper. Since 2004 the White Sox team ERA
2004 12th
2005 2nd
2006 10th
2007 12th
2008 6th

So, below average. With Buerhle falling apart, Contreras struggling, the bullpen struggling, shouldn't he also be evaluated or does he just make pitchers better?

I'd just like to point out that Buerhle isn't "falling apart," he's had some good games since his perfecto that, as I mentioned, have been ruined by the offense's ability to score runs. So, again (and this is also directed towards the last person who quoted me and challenged my position), the pitching has been MUCH better than the hitting the last few years, and this year there's no comparison.

dickallen15
08-31-2009, 11:24 PM
I'd just like to point out that Buerhle isn't "falling apart," he's had some good games since his perfecto that, as I mentioned, have been ruined by the offense's ability to score runs. So, again (and this is also directed towards the last person who quoted me and challenged my position), the pitching has been MUCH better than the hitting the last few years, and this year there's no comparison.

His ERA is closer to 6.00 than 4.00 since then, so continue to blame the offense. And if you look at runs scored ranking and ERA ranking the pitching hasn't been MUCH better since Walker was the hitting coach, if even better at all.

TheBigHurtST
09-01-2009, 01:48 AM
His ERA is closer to 6.00 than 4.00 since then, so continue to blame the offense. And if you look at runs scored ranking and ERA ranking the pitching hasn't been MUCH better since Walker was the hitting coach, if even better at all.

Well, in his bad starts he's done REALLY bad, so sure. But I recall at least 2 starts where he gave up less than 3 runs and the offense scored maybe 1 run if even. Gove the man some credit.

I'm noticing people changing the subject and trying to use the pitching struggles (which pale in comparison to the offense overall) to try and defend the awful offense (and apparently Walker) or just take the focus off of it. It's so sad it's kind of cute.

dickallen15
09-01-2009, 07:25 AM
Well, in his bad starts he's done REALLY bad, so sure. But I recall at least 2 starts where he gave up less than 3 runs and the offense scored maybe 1 run if even. Gove the man some credit.

I'm noticing people changing the subject and trying to use the pitching struggles (which pale in comparison to the offense overall) to try and defend the awful offense (and apparently Walker) or just take the focus off of it. It's so sad it's kind of cute.

No I'm not. The other guy brought up Cooper walks on water and only makes pitchers better (Contreras?) and Walker is horrid, and showed the Sox offensive rankings the past several years. I thought it was interesting during that same time frame, the pitching has been lower half just as often as the offense. But we shouldn't let facts get in the way. BTW, up until Saturday, as bad as the Sox offense was this month, they still were averaging more than 5 runs a game in August.

soxfanreggie
09-01-2009, 07:32 AM
Also, besides career minor leaguers Fields and Lillibridge and using Rios as too small a sample size, name a White Sox not hitting what they reasonably should be hitting this year.

Grammar? :?:

kaufsox
09-01-2009, 09:13 AM
Just curious, if Greg Walker got fired tomorrow would it make any difference at this point and how angry would those of you supporting him really get? I don't really care either way, largely because I don't think coaches and managers at this level are THAT important. I think they are necessary, but I don't think a hitting coach is going to make or break a season.

kitekrazy
09-01-2009, 10:55 AM
Just curious, if Greg Walker got fired tomorrow would it make any difference at this point and how angry would those of you supporting him really get? I don't really care either way, largely because I don't think coaches and managers at this level are THAT important. I think they are necessary, but I don't think a hitting coach is going to make or break a season.

I think they do make a difference when to comes to young players. He hasn't ruined Beckham. I would think the longer a player has been in the big leagues the harder it is for them to make adjustments after having success doing it one way. They only guy I seen ever to make any adjustments at the plate was Yaz in his final year.

Nellie_Fox
09-01-2009, 12:15 PM
They only guy I seen ever to make any adjustments at the plate was Yaz in his final year.Cal Ripken changed his batting stance about every month.

tstrike2000
09-01-2009, 12:23 PM
Cal Ripken changed his batting stance about every month.

Yes he did. I remember during Sox telecasts Hawk would always say Ripken was only hitting right when that #8 on his back was viewable from the pitcher's mound.

TheBigHurtST
09-01-2009, 01:00 PM
Just curious, if Greg Walker got fired tomorrow would it make any difference at this point and how angry would those of you supporting him really get? I don't really care either way, largely because I don't think coaches and managers at this level are THAT important. I think they are necessary, but I don't think a hitting coach is going to make or break a season.

Probably not! So let's fire him, go without a hitting coach since OBVIOUSLY it doesn't matter, and we'll save some $$$


Seriously, how many times are we going to hear this excuse?

kaufsox
09-01-2009, 02:38 PM
Probably not! So let's fire him, go without a hitting coach since OBVIOUSLY it doesn't matter, and we'll save some $$$


Seriously, how many times are we going to hear this excuse?

What excuse? I never advocated firing him or not firing him, I don't care either way and I don't think if Christ himself were the hitting coach it would that big of a difference. I just don't think a hitting coach is a make or break position. If Greg Walker is gone next year but most of the pieces are the same, I don't think the next hitting coach is going to change this team into an offensive juggernaught.

Lefty34
09-01-2009, 03:34 PM
I think they do make a difference when to comes to young players. He hasn't ruined Beckham. I would think the longer a player has been in the big leagues the harder it is for them to make adjustments after having success doing it one way. They only guy I seen ever to make any adjustments at the plate was Yaz in his final year.

I'm in the same boat: I think they can make a bigger impact on the younger players than they can on the more-established hitters on the roster. For instance, take Gordon Beckham, we have seen his OBP and SLG numbers steadily decline through the month of August, and we are left to believe that he is either hitting the proverbial "wall" or the pitchers he has been facing have made an adjustment to his approach at the plate.

If the answer is that this is his first time playing this caliber of baseball for this long, then that's fine, and there is not much a manager or hitting coach can do for that, however I am more inclined to believe that pitchers have started to make adjustments to him and are now pitching to his weaknesses and it is now Beckham's turn to adjust. THAT is where the hitting coach comes in at the MLB level: it is at least partly Greg Walker's job to watch film with Beckham and instruct him on what adjustments pitchers have made to him and what he should and should not do to adapt to their new style of pitching to him.

And that applies to ALL players on the roster, really, whether they want the help or not. It is too easy to defend Walker by saying "the PLAYERS are the ones not hitting the ball, don't punish Walker for that" when it is his job (or should be, at the very least) to notice the trends in a player's swing and the way they are being pitched and to help them make the adjustment.

Now, am I inside the clubhouse or facilities to watch Walker work with the players, and do I generally know what goes on behind the scenes when it comes to Walker doing his job? No, of course not. But what I DO see is very inconsistent hitting, pop-ups, and a young, franchise-player-to-be not making the adjustment. The evidence is circumstantial, yes, and although most of us are not in a position to provide much better evidence of Walker not doing his job, it is improper (or questionable at best) to negate other's thoughts BECAUSE they don't have the aforementioned evidence and then rely on anecdotal stories from other third parties about Walker "working hard" and so on.

Pear-Zin-Ski
09-01-2009, 03:53 PM
14 pages, really....?

Alex Rios had an off-year with the Jays, make sure The Jays hitting coach gets a pink slip! Didn't someone mention The Cubbies fired their hitting coach? If so, how's that NL Central going?

This is something mental that is affecting the whole clubhouse, it has to be. Not only is the offense quiet, but have we forgotten about our defense as well? What about that bullpen? As much as we bitch and moan, it's only Ozzie's/Walker's/Coop's/Cox's fault about 5% of the time. This season's failure/success depends on the PLAYERS out there on the field.

If Ozzie makes line-ups without giving a damn or Walker keeps his mouth shout when he sees something wrong then I could see the argument, but right now it's just a bunch of crap.

Lefty34
09-01-2009, 06:59 PM
14 pages, really....?

Alex Rios had an off-year with the Jays, make sure The Jays hitting coach gets a pink slip! Didn't someone mention The Cubbies fired their hitting coach? If so, how's that NL Central going?

No one in their right mind should say or think that relieving Greg Walker of his duties would increase the team's overall output offensively by any large amount. However, there is a job to be done by the hitting coach, despite the downplaying by Ranger and others in this thread, and given the performance of the team as a whole as well as individual players, the questions raised about Walker's abilities as a hitting coach are more than legitimate.

This is something mental that is affecting the whole clubhouse, it has to be. Not only is the offense quiet, but have we forgotten about our defense as well? What about that bullpen? As much as we bitch and moan, it's only Ozzie's/Walker's/Coop's/Cox's fault about 5% of the time.

Yeah, you're right. That's only about 8 games over the course of a 162-game season, that really shouldn't matter in a divisional race. I mean, what team that's worth anything could use an 8-game swing in a race for the division? Oh, wait.....

If Ozzie makes line-ups without giving a damn

Well, let's see: there's Podsednik playing CF over Rios, Contreras being "moved to the bullpen" but still getting starts somehow, Scott Linebrink even warming up...shall I go on?

kitekrazy
09-01-2009, 07:02 PM
Alex Rios had an off-year with the Jays, make sure The Jays hitting coach gets a pink slip! Didn't someone mention The Cubbies fired their hitting coach? If so, how's that NL Central going?


Great point. Maybe this is what happens when you have too many power hitters. Funny how they all seem to slump at the same time. That's what killed the Cub's 2008 post season. I'm grateful that Fukadome didn't sign with the Sox.

Pear-Zin-Ski
09-01-2009, 07:42 PM
Yeah, you're right. That's only about 8 games over the course of a 162-game season, that really shouldn't matter in a divisional race. I mean, what team that's worth anything could use an 8-game swing in a race for the division? Oh, wait.....

And by that logic, EVERY team has a crucial set of eight games over a 162 game season. I don't see how The White Sox coaching staff is any better or more flawed than other staffs in the MLB.

soxfanreggie
09-04-2009, 12:19 PM
Paulie's comments:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/1752442,CST-SPT-joe04.article#

They can be seen at the end of the Figgins article in the Sun-Times. He says the Sox hitting woes are not Walk's fault.

Zisk77
09-04-2009, 04:54 PM
I post this as some might find it interesting, funny, and illuminating on some of the duties of a hitting coach.

As a hs baseball coach My colleagues and i made our annual pilgramage to the sox/bulls academy for a coaching clinic. One of the speakers was a current minor league manager in the Diamondbacks system ( I believe his name was Mark Hatley or something like that). previosly he was a coach in the sox system. He talked about how different players had to be coached differently and gave three white sox hitting examples.

Paul Konerko: the hitting coach had to watch hm hit and at a moments notice diagnose what Paulie was doing wrong and verbally tell him what he should do. If he didn't know then in Paulie's words, "we have an *******problem."

Frank Thomas: If Frank was doing something wrong he didn't want to hear about it. He wanted you to film it and he would then spend hours watching to make the corrections. He had to see what you were talking about.

Aaron Rowand: neither approach worked for Aaron. aaron didn't have the attention span to watch film and wasn't good at listening to you talk about it. He would say "walk, give me a drill that corrects it. I have to feel it"

So you see, a hitting coach has to wear many hats to get his points across.

FielderJones
09-04-2009, 11:07 PM
So you see, a hitting coach has to wear many hats to get his points across.

Walk really sucked it up big time tonight.

gobears1987
09-04-2009, 11:14 PM
Tonight's performance is squarely on Walker. I mean if the hitting coach is at fault when we suck, shouldn't he be at fault when we dominate?

Let's be honest here, these players are veterans and if they don't execute, it's on them.

FielderJones
09-04-2009, 11:16 PM
Tonight's performance is squarely on Walker. I mean if the hitting coach is at fault when we suck, shouldn't he be at fault when we dominate?

This is WSI. Only blame is assigned to coaches, never credit.

TornLabrum
09-05-2009, 09:49 AM
This is WSI. Only blame is assigned to coaches, never credit.

This is at least true for our numerous fantasy league GMs.