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View Full Version : What is the missing ingredient?


A. Cavatica
08-25-2009, 10:40 PM
Why isn't this team winning?

Viva Medias B's
08-25-2009, 10:41 PM
Killer instinct.

thomas35forever
08-25-2009, 10:44 PM
Killer instinct.
That and the fact that the veterans aren't playing up to form. Heads will roll after this season (I hope).

LoveYourSuit
08-25-2009, 10:48 PM
Leadership.

Starting with the manager on down. Not a single leader I can point out on this club other than AJ (who by the way took **** when he got on Alexei's face while Alexei played like a dog).

Ozzie Guillen is Jerry Manuel right now.

BleacherBandit
08-25-2009, 10:50 PM
Dye isn't grindy enough. Well, at least he hasn't been.

Edit: I'm joking. You didn't have a preferable answer, one of which is that it's mental. This team can win if it choses to. It has the pieces. It has the chances.

SoxGirl4Life
08-25-2009, 10:51 PM
None of these is a good choice.

GoGoCrede
08-25-2009, 10:52 PM
A pinch of paprika.

hi im skot
08-25-2009, 10:53 PM
Chris Getz!

A. Cavatica
08-25-2009, 10:54 PM
None of these is a good choice.

Well, what then?

BleacherBandit
08-25-2009, 10:54 PM
Chris Getz!

:Getz:

I am the missing link.

southwstchi4life
08-25-2009, 10:56 PM
Consistency at the plate when runners are in scoring positions.

BadBobbyJenks
08-25-2009, 10:57 PM
Jon Garland.

Chicken Dinner
08-25-2009, 10:57 PM
No timely hitting, poor defense, and the bullpen/starting pitching suck right now. It's not one thing, it's three!

A. Cavatica
08-25-2009, 10:59 PM
I'm joking. You didn't have a preferable answer, one of which is that it's mental. This team can win if it choses to. It has the pieces. It has the chances.

It sure looks that way to me, but it seemed like too easy a choice. I think a good team would have someone step up and lead it out of a funk like this, so I have two choices for leadership -- veterans and coaching staff.

TommyGavinFloyd
08-25-2009, 11:00 PM
I'd say a lack of focus and discipline over any of the choices. Errors, dumb plays (Scotty picked off 3rd, Nix last night), failure to execute w men on 3rd, etc. Don't we lead the league in unearned runs too? I don't know how to fix it, or if it can be fixed with this current group. It's not my problem to worry about though so I will just continue to watch and see what happens.

DickAllen72
08-25-2009, 11:06 PM
Well, what then?
Needs more cow-bell.

Lip Man 1
08-25-2009, 11:30 PM
There is no one single thing.

It's all interrelated.

A bad roster to start the season that would have had a hard time winning in Triple A, changing on the fly and trying to incorporate the new additions, trying to force feed kids into the lineup, no 4th and 5th starters, poor execution of fundamentals (next spring will be the 4th year we'll hear Ozzie talk about focusing on it in spring training :rolleyes:), bad defense.

A lot of things.

Lip

Boondock Saint
08-25-2009, 11:31 PM
Needs more cow-bell.

We have a winner.

cards press box
08-25-2009, 11:41 PM
Why isn't this team winning?

Let me throw out three reasons.

1. Youth.

Much of the team is young and is going through growing pains. The Sox have two rookies (three if you count Jayson Nix) and a second year player in the infield. Carlos Quentin and Gavin Floyd are in their second full years; John Danks is in his third full year. Even if the Sox come up short this year, these guys are getting valuable experience.

2. Some of the veteran stopgaps have not worked out.

Bartolo Colon (3-6 with a 4.19 ERA) was generally ineffective. Jose Contreras is 5-12 with a 5.09 ERA. That has been 40% of the starting rotation this year. When two of your starters go a collective 8-18, that is tough to overcome.

His great catch against Tampa Bay notwithstanding, DeWayne Wise struggled to find any offensive consistency. Jerry Owens and Brian Anderson didn't play well and are with new teams. Josh Fields isn't a veteran but he didn't play well, either. I almost forgot Wilson Betemit and Brent Lillibridge. They struggled, too, and the Sox bench -- which was supposed to be a strength -- became a terrible weakness.

These veterans (and Anderson, Lillibridge and Fields) were supposed to hold the fort down until several top minor league prospects came to Chicago. It just didn't work out that way.

3. The new players have not yet had a big impact on the Sox.

Jake Peavy has not pitched yet with the Sox and Alex Rios hasn't quite settled in. Both Peavy and Rios will help the Sox. Will it be enough for the Sox to get past Detroit? That is hard to say.

MarkZ35
08-25-2009, 11:43 PM
Coaching and veteran leadership IMO.

I expect AJ, Thome, Konerko, and Dye to come up with big hits. They haven't done very much of that this year. Buehrle has just plain sucked since the perfect game besides one start. The younger players have carried this team.

I agree that the 4th and 5th spot in the rotation weren't filled adequately but that wouldn't loom as large if we could get some big hits. The defense is what it is but it hasn't hurt us as much as situational hitting. I lay a lot of their problems of hitting in big spots on Walker for the players not having the right mind sets. I realize they are veterans but he isn't just there to help out the rookies.

voodoochile
08-25-2009, 11:47 PM
Let me throw out three reasons.

1. Youth.

Much of the team is young and is going through growing pains. The Sox have two rookies (three if you count Jayson Nix) and a second year player in the infield. Carlos Quentin and Gavin Floyd are in their second full years; John Danks is in his third full year. Even if the Sox come up short this year, these guys are getting valuable experience.

2. Some of the veteran stopgaps have not worked out.

Bartolo Colon (3-6 with a 4.19 ERA) was generally ineffective. Jose Contreras is 5-12 with a 5.09 ERA. That has been 40% of the starting rotation this year. When two of your starters go a collective 8-18, that is tough to overcome.

His great catch against Tampa Bay notwithstanding, DeWayne Wise struggled to find any offensive consistency. Jerry Owens and Brian Anderson didn't play well and are with new teams. Josh Fields isn't a veteran but he didn't play well, either. I almost forgot Wilson Betemit and Brent Lillibridge. They struggled, too, and the Sox bench -- which was supposed to be a strength -- became a terrible weakness.

These veterans (and Anderson, Lillibridge and Fields) were supposed to hold the fort down until several top minor league prospects came to Chicago. It just didn't work out that way.

3. The new players have not yet had a big impact on the Sox.

Jake Peavy has not pitched yet with the Sox and Alex Rios hasn't quite settled in. Both Peavy and Rios will help the Sox. Will it be enough for the Sox to get past Detroit? That is hard to say.

The youth is especially youthful too with three infield slots all playing their first season as a majorl leaguer at their given position.

I do think injuries have taken a toll also, most noticeably the TCQ injury, but personally I think Dye is banged up right now too. He seemed to favor his leg when he slid into second earlier tonight. I don't think he can do another cortizone injection because I think he had one this spring.

I think the pitching staff is overtaxed at the moment also. The failures of the 4th and 5th starter have led to Ozzie having to overwork the other three starters because the bullpen has been forced to extend itself the other days. I think some of that is coming back to bite them now.

cards press box
08-26-2009, 12:25 AM
The youth is especially youthful too with three infield slots all playing their first season as a majorl leaguer at their given position.

I do think injuries have taken a toll also, most noticeably the TCQ injury, but personally I think Dye is banged up right now too. He seemed to favor his leg when he slid into second earlier tonight. I don't think he can do another cortizone injection because I think he had one this spring.

I think the pitching staff is overtaxed at the moment also. The failures of the 4th and 5th starter have led to Ozzie having to overwork the other three starters because the bullpen has been forced to extend itself the other days. I think some of that is coming back to bite them now.

The injuries have certainly hurt. TCQ is having nowhere near the season offensively or defensively that he had in 2008. That foot injury has truly messed up his season. I agree that Dye does not look 100%, either. With Rios on board, I hope that Ozzie gives Quentin and Dye as much rest as he can the rest of the way.

The bullpen does look overworked and, yes, the back end of the rotation just added to their workload. Linebrink's ineffectiveness has helped, either. The September call ups can't get here fast enough to pitch some innings.

TheOldRoman
08-26-2009, 12:27 AM
Since "new hitting coach with a new hitting philosophy" isn't an option, I will go with veteran leadership. There is no excuse for the team looking completely dead for a long stretch of time. It has happened in each of the last four years. There is also no excuse for defeatism. Dye said "when I played for Oakland we knew 100% that we were going to win when the Sox came in", yet he makes excuses for their horrible play in the Metrodome "that's just how it goes". Being in a pennant race and getting shut down (or shutting yourself down) against 2 pitchers with ERAs over 6, at home, in a span of 3 days is not a sign of a team with good veteran leadership.

As I said before, I am glad both Cabrera and Swisher are gone, but I don't hold the clubhouse disliking them against them. There is no accountability, so the current "whatever" attitude reigns in the clubhouse. If they win - great, if not - no big deal. Cabrera called them out for it. His only mistake was not doing it in May.

hi im skot
08-26-2009, 12:42 AM
Since "new hitting coach with a new hitting philosophy" isn't an option, I will go with veteran leadership. There is no excuse for the team looking completely dead for a long stretch of time. It has happened in each of the last four years. There is also no excuse for defeatism. Dye said "when I played for Oakland we knew 100% that we were going to win when the Sox came in", yet he makes excuses for their horrible play in the Metrodome "that's just how it goes". Being in a pennant race and getting shut down (or shutting yourself down) against 2 pitchers with ERAs over 6, at home, in a span of 3 days is not a sign of a team with good veteran leadership.

I wasn't aware of that Oakland quote. Shame on them if that's the case.

TheOldRoman
08-26-2009, 12:47 AM
I wasn't aware of that Oakland quote. Shame on them if that's the case.I maybe should have clarified that I read that from someone else. I don't remember it firsthand. I do remember AJ talking about being a Twin and knowing the Sox were going to lose in the dome, or how they knew the Sox didn't stand a chance against them late in the season.

DaveFeelsRight
08-26-2009, 01:45 AM
i found this post over at soxmachine and i pretty much agree with it

http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/2009/08/23/history-repeating-with-podsednik/

JB98
08-26-2009, 01:45 AM
I voted lack of leadership from the veterans. I think that was the best option among the choices in the poll. It's lack of performance by the veterans as much as anything.

In situations where this team needs to execute, they can't execute. That's the bottom line.

They don't execute in key situations in any phase of the game. Knock in a big run from third? Can't do it. Make the smart play defensively? Can't do it. Make the big pitch to get the big out? Can't do it.

They can't get outta their own way.

Coolpapa
08-26-2009, 01:46 AM
Aaron Rowand

WhiteSox5187
08-26-2009, 01:52 AM
Really when you look at the opening day roster and then all of the changes we've made to it, this team is about where it should be. We're really much more geared up for 2010 than for 2009. I obviously want us to win in '09 but this isn't like '07 or even last year for that matter where it seemed like the Sox were still riddled with holes and you were trying for one last push out of an aging core. We do have an aging core, but you have guys who can replace them and who have contributed nicely this year.

Lip Man 1
08-26-2009, 01:59 AM
Roman / Skot:

That's an accurate quote. Dye said it to Joe Cowley of the Sun-Times right before the Sox went into Minnesota the last time. I posted it and Love got very upset over what Dye was saying for basically the same reason you gave.

Lip

captainclutch24
08-26-2009, 05:00 AM
No particular order
1. Bullpen sucks
2. Starting pitching is ****ty. 1 or 2 good starts a week, and the rest suck
3. No run support for the good starts we get
4. Ozzie making poor decisions in tight games
5. Defense sucks, look like a monkey ****ing a football
6. Mediocre batting averages for most starters
7. Lack of situational hitting
8. Make .400 teams look like .800
9. Make .600 teams look like .550
10. Sox turn 6.0 ERA pitchers into 1.0 Cy Young award winners
11. Make 4.0 era pitchers look like 4.0 era pitchers
12. Make 2.5 era pitchers look like 2.5 era pitchers
13. Allow a starting pitcher who can't get past the 4th inning continue to start every 5 games
14. A 3 4 5 that is about as unproductive as they come


I am done for now

wassagstdu
08-26-2009, 08:08 AM
Too much dependence on advance preparation. Too much thinking at the plate and probably too much thinking about hitting while fielding and baserunning.

I think it was Eisenhower who said, "Planning is everything. The plan is nothing." Meaning that as soon as the enemy has his input you have to forget the plan and adjust. If the enemy knows you have planned intensively and can't adjust you are a sitting duck.

doublem23
08-26-2009, 09:59 AM
Consistency at the plate when runners are in scoring positions.

The Sox's BA with RISP is actually above the league average.

beasly213
08-26-2009, 10:03 AM
Killer instinct.


:rolleyes: What does that even mean? Are the players supposed to yell at eachother before the game or something?

asindc
08-26-2009, 10:07 AM
Since "new hitting coach with a new hitting philosophy" isn't an option, I will go with veteran leadership. There is no excuse for the team looking completely dead for a long stretch of time. It has happened in each of the last four years. There is also no excuse for defeatism. Dye said "when I played for Oakland we knew 100% that we were going to win when the Sox came in", yet he makes excuses for their horrible play in the Metrodome "that's just how it goes". Being in a pennant race and getting shut down (or shutting yourself down) against 2 pitchers with ERAs over 6, at home, in a span of 3 days is not a sign of a team with good veteran leadership.

As I said before, I am glad both Cabrera and Swisher are gone, but I don't hold the clubhouse disliking them against them. There is no accountability, so the current "whatever" attitude reigns in the clubhouse. If they win - great, if not - no big deal. Cabrera called them out for it. His only mistake was not doing it in May.

I agree 100% with this statement. When Konerko signed the big deal, my only concern was that he wasn't the guy who would get on other guys in the clubhouse. We need that kind of bad ass. Of the personalities I see on the team, only Quentin, Danks, and Nix seem like they would take that role.

I watched the Twinkees come back on Baltimore last night. One of the reasons they always seem to be right there at the end is that they play late-season games with a purpose. Maybe it's because we rely on older guys to provide the clutch offense and they are usually banged up this time of year, but we seem to be missing that in too many games down the stretch.

g0g0
08-26-2009, 10:50 AM
I want more small ball!

slavko
08-26-2009, 11:18 AM
That and the fact that the veterans aren't playing up to form. Heads will roll after this season (I hope).

The bohemoths are disappearing in crunch time, aren't they? What's the excuse? They're certainly not tired out from running the bases.

No timely hitting, poor defense, and the bullpen/starting pitching suck right now. It's not one thing, it's three!

I've got a hot flash for everyone:Peavy is not going to save this team by himself. Just for this season, we might have gotten as many wins out of Clayton Richard as we will from him.

Pear-Zin-Ski
08-26-2009, 11:19 AM
The Sox's BA with RISP is actually above the league average.

Isn't that ****ing maddening? I saw that stat during the game last night and I couldn't believe it. It surely seems like whenever we have men on 1B and 2B with no outs, nothing good happens. Is this all an illusion? :scratch:

NoNeckEra
08-26-2009, 11:26 AM
:rolleyes: What does that even mean? Are the players supposed to yell at eachother before the game or something?
Regarding "Killer Instinct":
The Sox are loaded with "technicians" at the plate: Konerko, Dye, Thome in the heart of their order. They take the same approach to the plate in all situations.

Good teams (like the Red Sox the past couple of days) can sense the moment and take an at bat to the next level, like Mike Lowell, Jason Bay and Youk.

Therefore, when a good pitcher takes HIS game to the next level, our guys are overmatched.

PalehosePlanet
08-26-2009, 11:35 AM
Leadership.

Starting with the manager on down. Not a single leader I can point out on this club other than AJ (who by the way took **** when he got on Alexei's face while Alexei played like a dog).

Ozzie Guillen is Jerry Manuel right now.

AJ is our worst hitter in the clutch and probably our worst defender. He has no right to bitch out anyone.

This team lacks cohesiveness, killer instinct, and no one semms to make a big play, or get a big hit, when we really need it.

On paper this is a solid team; we need to make some minor changes to improve the team for next year.

As for this year? We are done. The motto of this team is "Refuse to Win."

EMachine10
08-26-2009, 11:37 AM
Although I voted for the curse of Brian, my serious vote goes to veteran leadership - it simply is not there. I can see Beckham bringing more leadership to this club than anybody come next year. It seems as though there are a lot of quiet guys in the clubhouse, which is fine, but of course, we do not know what goes on behind closed doors. However unlikely it seems, guys like Buehrle and Paulie could be trying to get everybody going - we probably wouldn't know, though.

slavko
08-26-2009, 11:43 AM
As long as someone mentioned hitting coach, which Sox recently worked with Walt Hriniak and said that he and Walker share the same hitting philosophy? Isn't this contrary to our view of Walker as HR or nothing and Hriniak as swing down on the ball and hit line drives? Someone please explain.

Pear-Zin-Ski
08-26-2009, 11:47 AM
My pro-AJ bias aside, you really think he is our worst defender? We all know he has trouble throwing runners out, and maybe it's the past two weeks of games I've been watching, but hasn't AJ been the least of our concerns? I've seen him throw out quite a few runners recently.

AJ is our worst hitter in the clutch and probably our worst defender. He has no right to bitch out anyone.

This team lacks cohesiveness, killer instinct, and no one semms to make a big play, or get a big hit, when we really need it.

On paper this is a solid team; we need to make some minor changes to improve the team for next year.

As for this year? We are done. The motto of this team is "Refuse to Win."

spawn
08-26-2009, 12:11 PM
A Bay leaf...it adds flavor.

Lip Man 1
08-26-2009, 12:13 PM
Beasley:

For what it's worth I had a member of the front office tell me the exact same thing, that the biggest issue with this club was "no killer instinct."

Lip

akingamongstmen
08-26-2009, 12:26 PM
They aren't winning because of a disturbing lack of consistency across all aspects of the game.

When they hit, they can't pitch.
When they pitch, they can't hit.
They generally are terrible defensively across the board.
The bullpen (other than Thorton) struggles terribly in clutch situations.

Frankly, I'm amazed that we're in contention. Thankfully, the AL Central is awful.

LITTLE NELL
08-26-2009, 12:42 PM
They aren't winning because of a disturbing lack of consistency across all aspects of the game.

When they hit, they can't pitch.
When they pitch, they can't hit.
They generally are terrible defensively across the board.
The bullpen (other than Thorton) struggles terribly in clutch situations.

Frankly, I'm amazed that we're in contention. Thankfully, the AL Central is awful.
We will not be in contention by the end of this road trip.

PaleHoser
08-26-2009, 12:48 PM
Hunger.

I just don't think this team is hungry. Ozzie talks a good fight ("waiting for my guys to show up"), but the only player he's benched this year is Ramirez. If you can't count on somebody to show up prepared to play nine innings, then they should sit down. Hurt somebody's pride and maybe they'll tune into the ballgame for three hours.

Law11
08-26-2009, 12:52 PM
we need to score more than the opponent.

Railsplitter
08-26-2009, 01:02 PM
Inconsitency, lack of leadership.

Craig Grebeck
08-26-2009, 01:04 PM
Lack of talent.

JB98
08-26-2009, 01:24 PM
Lack of talent.

Early in the season, I would have agreed with you.

Right now, though, I think the Sox roster stacks up pretty well when compared to Detroit's or Minnesota's. I don't think their roster is as good as New York's, Boston's or Anaheim's. Not even close. But I don't see any team in the Central that has more talent than the Sox.

jabrch
08-26-2009, 01:54 PM
The Fire and the Passion.

The team is good enough to beat anyone. It is also bad enough to lose to anyone. That describes nearly every team in baseball; including the one we are currently facing and the one coming up. It includes the team we are chasing. It includes the team chasing us.

**** happens. There's no one reason. I guess if I had to pick one - I'd say defense.

CWSpalehoseCWS
08-26-2009, 02:00 PM
Lack of SP depth and terrible situational hitting.

Lip Man 1
08-26-2009, 02:50 PM
Jab:

The one we are currently facing is 19 games over .500 and right in the thick of the wild card chase. I respectfully submit that's a big difference from a team that's .500 and only in a race because the division is poor. And with 35 or so games left, being 4 1/2 out doesn't make me think they'll be doing anything in October but playing golf, watching TV and wondering what happened.

I do agree with you though, and have said so, that it's more than one reason, it's interrelated.

Lip

oeo
08-26-2009, 03:06 PM
And with 35 or so games left, being 4 1/2 out doesn't make me think they'll be doing anything in October but playing golf, watching TV and wondering what happened.

Come on, you've watched a lot of baseball in your life and you seriously believe this? I really wish the Twins were thinking the same thing when they were 2.5 back last year with 6 games to play. And I really hope the Sox don't feel the same way, which it appears they do because they're pressing. It's still too early to be pressing. There's plenty of games left to make up the deficit. Things look like **** now, but in a week from now, they could look better. That's the great thing about this game.

Craig Grebeck
08-26-2009, 03:12 PM
Early in the season, I would have agreed with you.

Right now, though, I think the Sox roster stacks up pretty well when compared to Detroit's or Minnesota's. I don't think their roster is as good as New York's, Boston's or Anaheim's. Not even close. But I don't see any team in the Central that has more talent than the Sox.
I think Detroit is considerably better. Truthfully. Miguel Cabrera is an elite, elite hitter and he is the difference.

Paulwny
08-26-2009, 03:14 PM
Come on, you've watched a lot of baseball in your life and you seriously believe this? I really wish the Twins were thinking the same thing when they were 3.5 back last year with 7 games to play. And I really hope the Sox don't feel the same way, which it appears they do because they're pressing. It's still too early to be pressing. There's plenty of games left to make up the deficit. Things look like **** now, but in a week from now, they could look better. That's the great thing about this game.

The big difference is, the Twins have Gardenhire, he instills confidence.

oeo
08-26-2009, 03:17 PM
The big difference is, the Twins have Gardenhire, he instills confidence.

No, the big difference is we're 4.5 back with 36 games left to go. We're not chasing one of the league's best.

You people need to step back and look at the bigger picture. It's hard to do with the Sox playing like ****, and they better turn it around. However, we have a very good shot to win the final two games of this series. And anyone who says they would not be happy with a split in Boston is nuts.

FoulTerritory
08-26-2009, 03:18 PM
The real answer is that half the pitchers on the team suck, and the other half have all gone through a rough stretch at some point. That, and bad defense.

We all know that pitching and defense are the ultimate distinguishing factors in baseball.

I still like Kenny & Ozzie, and the lineup is sufficient enough to win the division.

Crestani
08-26-2009, 03:22 PM
After Konerko's at bat in the 7th inning last wherein he went with the pitch and hit it to right field, the following, Dye, AJ, and Rios all tried to hit 3 run HR's. That's a microcosm of the entire season!

oeo
08-26-2009, 03:24 PM
After Konerko's at bat in the 7th inning last wherein he went with the pitch and hit it to right field, the following, Dye, AJ, and Rios all tried to hit 3 run HR's. That's a microcosm of the entire season!

For the most part, no, the Sox have not done that this year.

Paulwny
08-26-2009, 03:24 PM
No, the big difference is we're 4.5 back with 36 games left to go. We're not chasing one of the league's best.

You people need to step back and look at the bigger picture. It's hard to do with the Sox playing like ****, and they better turn it around. However, we have a very good shot to win the final two games of this series. And anyone who says they would not be happy with a split in Boston is nuts.


As much as I hate to say this,
At the end of this road trip the sox will be chasing 2 teams, even though these teams are not the leagues best.

Lip Man 1
08-26-2009, 03:30 PM
OEO:

As inconsistent as this club has been, as bad as the back end of the rotation has been this season, the fact that they've lost 23 games already to the four worst teams in the league and still have a difficult remaining schedule, it's very hard at this point in time, to think they are "suddenly" going to win eight of ten, or seven in a row to pull it off.

So to answer your original question, yes, I believe what I wrote.

Lip

kufram
08-26-2009, 03:32 PM
It appears to me that they just don't want to win bad enough. They seem to sleepwalk through games. No one is stepping up to take responsibility on the field. Managers and coaches CAN win games by making certain decisions at key moments but good teams have guys that step up and refuse to lose.

jabrch
08-26-2009, 03:33 PM
As much as I hate to say this,
At the end of this road trip the sox will be chasing 2 teams, even though these teams are not the leagues best.


The amazing number of guesses stated as if they are fact on this site is astounding.

jabrch
08-26-2009, 03:34 PM
It appears to me that they just don't want to win bad enough.

The sheer absurdity of that statement is amazing.

oeo
08-26-2009, 03:37 PM
As much as I hate to say this,
At the end of this road trip the sox will be chasing 2 teams, even though these teams are not the leagues best.

Twice now that you've completely ignored my point. They play the games for a reason. You're never out of it until you're eliminated. Last year should have taught everyone quite a bit, but apparently it didn't. Last night, I felt about as bad as I did after the Twins swept the Sox last year because of the shoddy play. Last year I threw in the towel, I'll be damned if I ever do that again.

Things need to get better, but it's a little early for the defeatist attitude.

Paulwny
08-26-2009, 03:37 PM
The amazing number of guesses stated as if they are fact on this site is astounding.

OK, I'll change it to"I think the sox wll be chasing.....".

jabrch
08-26-2009, 03:39 PM
Jab:

The one we are currently facing is 19 games over .500 and right in the thick of the wild card chase. I respectfully submit that's a big difference from a team that's .500 and only in a race because the division is poor. And with 35 or so games left, being 4 1/2 out doesn't make me think they'll be doing anything in October but playing golf, watching TV and wondering what happened.

I do agree with you though, and have said so, that it's more than one reason, it's interrelated.

Lip

Don't just look at the outcomes. Look at the teams. For as much as people complain about our back end of the rotation, Penny and Tazawa suck too. They are playing Alex Gonzalez at SS. This is not a team that is a lock to win anything at all. Are they better than us? Of course - I didn't say they aren't. But this is by no means a great team. It's the worst Red Sox team in the past 5 years.

As far as your statement about 4.5 games down, it surprises nobody that you take a "glass half full" outlook. The odds are good that we don't win it right now given the situation. But I don't think things are as bad as you think they are. We very well may not make the playoffs - but that is yet to be decided - not already decided.

oeo
08-26-2009, 03:40 PM
OEO:

As inconsistent as this club has been, as bad as the back end of the rotation has been this season, the fact that they've lost 23 games already to the four worst teams in the league and still have a difficult remaining schedule, it's very hard at this point in time, to think they are "suddenly" going to win eight of ten, or seven in a row to pull it off.

So to answer your original question, yes, I believe what I wrote.

Lip

And yet, with everything you've just wrote, history shows, none of it means a damn thing.

Paulwny
08-26-2009, 03:43 PM
Twice now that you've completely ignored my point. They play the games for a reason. You're never out of it until you're eliminated. Last year should have taught everyone quite a bit, but apparently it didn't. Last night, I felt about as bad as I did after the Twins swept the Sox last year because of the shoddy play. Last year I threw in the towel, I'll be damned if I ever do that again.

Things need to get better, but it's a little early for the defeatist attitude.


Where did I ever say the sox couldn't win this division? I still think they have a shot, but it'll be after this road trip and we'll be chasing 2 teams.

oeo
08-26-2009, 03:45 PM
Where did I ever say the sox couldn't win this division? I still think they have a shot, but it'll be after this road trip and we'll be chasing 2 teams.

"The big difference is, the Twins have Gardenhire, he instills confidence."

What the hell was that supposed to mean?

Paulwny
08-26-2009, 03:49 PM
"The big difference is, the Twins have Gardenhire, he instills confidence."

What the hell was that supposed to mean?

That Gardenhire is better than Oz, Oz has a more talented team, but to me, Gardenhire gets more out of his players. The sox can stiil win even with Oz as the manager.

Chez
08-26-2009, 03:56 PM
As I posted in the "KW's one mistake" thread, I think not having reliable (or even average) starters at the back-end of our rotation has been the missing ingredient. I also think the decline of Jermaine Dye has really hurt us. Dye has been our most consistent hitter since he arrived in 2005. Not having his usual production in the #3 hole since the All Star Break has really hurt.

That said, I'm an incurable optimist when it comes to sports. I think the Sox still have that one missing hot streak in them and will win the Central. I really do.

Lip Man 1
08-26-2009, 04:19 PM
OEO:

You asked if I honestly believed what I wrote after having watched baseball as long as I have.

I told you I did and explained why.

ANYTHING can happen, but if I was a betting man I wouldn't bet your life on this team doing it. Certain teams give you a sense of things, how they play, how they look, do they sleepwalk through games etc, this edition of the Sox shows me very little that they are capable of doing it.

Not saying you can't continue to 'believe' or 'hope'... you asked remember if I believed what I wrote.

Lip

Lip Man 1
08-26-2009, 04:24 PM
Jab:

Like I told OEO, you can believe or hope or whatever works best for you. I offered my opinion, never claimed it was fact in the statement.

Some folks still have hope if a team is ten games out with 11 to go... mathematically they are correct. Realistically? That's a different situation and I think the Sox are rapidly falling into the second scenario based on the way they have looked all season. Right now it's a stretch to say they can win four straight they way they've been playing.

We'll know a lot more by Sunday afternoon.

Lip

JermaineDye05
08-26-2009, 04:31 PM
Chone Figgins.

Oh and baseball gloves.

PatK
08-26-2009, 04:58 PM
Not ever having a dependable #4 or #5 starter all year

TomBradley72
08-26-2009, 05:15 PM
My $0.02:

We're missing at least one reliable starter...I won't expect 5..but you need 4...the hole left based on Contreras' performance and the gap between Richard and Peavy has been rough.
We've had to make a big sacrifice on outfield defense to get the offense we need. Especially Pods, Dye (range) and TCQ (playing with injured foot).
3/4's of our infield are 1st year players at their positions....not a single solid fielder (this year, they may get better with experience) in the bunch.
No reliable RH set up man in the bullpen..Dotel, Linebrink and Pena have all been mediocre. No bridge between our starters and Thornton/Jenks.
Overall team chemistry...I can't put my finger on it...but there hasn't been a single stretch where you could really feel the team coming together, feel a "spark"...the "team" has never been as good as "the sum of the parts"...not sure why.

jabrch
08-26-2009, 06:05 PM
Jab:

Like I told OEO, you can believe or hope or whatever works best for you. I offered my opinion, never claimed it was fact in the statement.

Some folks still have hope if a team is ten games out with 11 to go... mathematically they are correct. Realistically? That's a different situation and I think the Sox are rapidly falling into the second scenario based on the way they have looked all season. Right now it's a stretch to say they can win four straight they way they've been playing.

We'll know a lot more by Sunday afternoon.

Lip

A lot more? I guess some more... There's a difference between 10 out with 11 and 4.5 out with 35. I know you know this... The former is a near impossibility, the latter happens on a regular basis. We most likely don't come back and win this. I'm aware of that. But some are saying we are out of it. Some are saying we suck. Some are saying this team isn't very good. IMHO, none of that is true.

It is good enough to beat very good teams and it is bad enough to lose to very bad teams. Net...still hanging in there.

This is obviously all opinion. You can believe what you want. I believe what I want. That's the nature of it. My vantage point won't turn to hopeless until the bitter end.

Lip Man 1
08-26-2009, 06:54 PM
Jab:

I have no idea who Detroit plays the rest of the week but I know who the Sox are playing and if they should fall to say six out by Sunday, I think my statement of knowing a lot more stands. Don't you?

Lip