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ike from nj
08-25-2009, 07:58 AM
Kenny has had a great last few months but in hindsight he should have moved Jermaine around the all-star break. He had high value and the outfield would be in better shape today without all the congestion. There were some posters all over this at the time and they definitley were correct in this view.

spawn
08-25-2009, 08:02 AM
Kenny has had a great last few months but in hindsight he should have moved Jermaine around the all-star break. He had high value and the outfield would be in better shape today without all the congestion. There were some posters all over this at the time and they definitley were correct in this view.
How would the outfield have been better with Pods, BA, and Dewayne Wise in the outfield? If I remember correctly, TCQ wasn'ty back yet, and we didn't have Rios and had no way of knowing we would get him.

ike from nj
08-25-2009, 08:02 AM
Thanks for pointing out my spelling error. I have a broken left hand and sometimes I type poorly with my right. I will utilize the spell check until I recover because I do not want to subject anyone on this intelligent message board with errors that could be avoided.

ike from nj
08-25-2009, 08:03 AM
How would the outfield have been better with Pods, BA, and Dewayne Wise in the outfield? If I remember correctly, TCQ wasn'ty back yet, and we didn't have Rios and had no way of knowing we would get him.
I said better shape TODAY

ms620
08-25-2009, 08:04 AM
How would the outfield have been better with Pods, BA, and Dewayne Wise in the outfield? If I remember correctly, TCQ wasn'ty back yet, and we didn't have Rios and had no way of knowing we would get him.

I am sure Kenny knew that Rios was going to be placed on waivers..and i am sure he was fairly confident that he was going to get him.

spawn
08-25-2009, 08:05 AM
I said better shape TODAY
But you're saying he made a mistake by not trading JD at the All Star break. How is that a mistake? Unless KW has a crystal ball, he had no way of knowing how crowded the outfield would become.

spawn
08-25-2009, 08:06 AM
I am sure Kenny knew that Rios was going to be placed on waivers..and i am sure he was fairly confident that he was going to get him.
He was confident he would sign Torii Hunter as well. How did that work out?

ms620
08-25-2009, 08:06 AM
But you're saying he made a mistake by not trading JD at the All Star break. How is that a mistake? Unless KW has a crystal ball, he had no way of knowing how crowded the outfield would become.

This post makes no sense. GMs know a lot more than we do. How many American League teams with worse records than the Sox could of afforded Rios' contract. It really can be assumed that by the trading deadline, Kenny had a very good idea that he would be getting Rios.

ms620
08-25-2009, 08:07 AM
He was confident he would sign Torii Hunter as well. How did that work out?

Completely different. If you do not understand the difference between signing free agents and claiming a player off waivers I will be happy to explain it to you.

Chez
08-25-2009, 08:09 AM
I don't think retaining Dye was a mistake. I think going into the season banking on Contreras and Colon as the back-end of the rotation was a mistake -- especially when it became clear that Jeff Marquez was not a guy who was ready to step-in.

ms620
08-25-2009, 08:09 AM
He was confident he would sign Torii Hunter as well. How did that work out?

FYI..on July 31st, Kenny's competition for Rios was:

KC, Cleveland, Oakland, Baltimore, Minnesota...would you honestly think any one of them would claim Rios? With Toronto's financial situation, everyone in the industry knew Toronto would let Rios go to anyone who claimed him.

spawn
08-25-2009, 08:11 AM
Completely different. If you do not understand the difference between signing free agents and claiming a player off waivers I will be happy to explain it to you.
No need, as I know the difference. There was no guarantee of acquiring Rios, so why would KW cripple the outfield without knowing for sure of cquiring Rios? That would be pretty stupid.

ike from nj
08-25-2009, 08:11 AM
But you're saying he made a mistake by not trading JD at the All Star break. How is that a mistake? Unless KW has a crystal ball, he had no way of knowing how crowded the outfield would become.
my post is pretty clear, ie that "in hindsight" it was a mistake not to trade dye at the break. in other words looking back on the season it would have been better to have received some value for jermaine instead of letting him go for nothing this offseason. it's no different than criticizing a manager for staying too long with a pitcher, or criticizing a player for trying to stretch a single into a double. all criticism uses a crystal ball by nature because it all occurs AFTER the fact.

i was also suggesting that some posters suggested this BEFORE the fact and I was complimenting their foresight.

asindc
08-25-2009, 08:11 AM
This post makes no sense. GMs know a lot more than we do. How many American League teams with worse records than the Sox could of afforded Rios' contract. It really can be assumed that by the trading deadline, Kenny had a very good idea that he would be getting Rios.

That's a helluva an assumption on which to base trading your starting RF several weeks before the possibility presents itself.

doublem23
08-25-2009, 08:11 AM
FYI..on July 31st, Kenny's competition for Rios was:

KC, Cleveland, Oakland, Baltimore, Minnesota...would you honestly think any one of them would claim Rios? With Toronto's financial situation, everyone in the industry knew Toronto would let Rios go to anyone who claimed him.

What happened to the National League?

spawn
08-25-2009, 08:12 AM
What happened to the National League?
Be patient..he'll explain it to you.

ms620
08-25-2009, 08:13 AM
What happened to the National League?

You are right Spawn...American League teams get first shot at American League players...

Dibbs
08-25-2009, 08:14 AM
JD is slumping. There is no way Kenny should have/could have/would have traded him. There would have been an uproar like never before, and rightfully so.

ms620
08-25-2009, 08:15 AM
That's a helluva an assumption on which to base trading your starting RF several weeks before the possibility presents itself.

I stated before the deadling that the Sox were not a very good team, and it would make sense to unload some of their veterans who still had value...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=114102

spawn
08-25-2009, 08:16 AM
What happened to the National League?
Never mind the fact that teams claim players off waivers to prevent another team from claiming certain players.

ike from nj
08-25-2009, 08:17 AM
Never mind the fact that teams claim players off waivers to prevent another team from claiming certain players.
athe risk of owning them

ms620
08-25-2009, 08:18 AM
Never mind the fact that teams claim players off waivers to prevent another team from claiming certain players.

And that the original team CAN LET THE PLAYER GO AND THE TEAM THAT CLAIMED HIM TO PREVENT ANOTHER TEAM FROM GETTING HIM WOULD BE STUCK WITH THAT PLAYER. So you are telling me there is a realistic chance any of the above mentioned teams would take that risk? That post absolutely makes no sense.

SCCWS
08-25-2009, 08:45 AM
I stated before the deadling that the Sox were not a very good team, and it would make sense to unload some of their veterans who still had value...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=114102


So what would Dye have brought back?????? What did OC cost the Twins? What did Rios cost the WS? What did Martinez cost the Red Sox? Position players cost most teams the willingness to take on their salary this year. Dye would have brought back a AA propect at best.
You also are so sure Keny knew Toronto would dump Rios. Go back and see how many experts guaranteed Halliday would be traded.

spawn
08-25-2009, 08:49 AM
And that the original team CAN LET THE PLAYER GO AND THE TEAM THAT CLAIMED HIM TO PREVENT ANOTHER TEAM FROM GETTING HIM WOULD BE STUCK WITH THAT PLAYER. So you are telling me there is a realistic chance any of the above mentioned teams would take that risk? That post absolutely makes no sense.
Not according to Jayson Starks. In the past, teams have claimed players off waivers to prevent them from being traded to contenders with a better record. Also, generally if a player is claimed, the teams try to work a trade for the claimed player. If a trade can't be agreed upon, the team that placed the player of waivers can pull him back off of waivers. But then, you're the waivers expert so you already knew this, right? :wink:

PennStater98r
08-25-2009, 08:58 AM
my post is pretty clear, ie that "in hindsight" it was a mistake not to trade dye at the break. in other words looking back on the season it would have been better to have received some value for jermaine instead of letting him go for nothing this offseason. it's no different than criticizing a manager for staying too long with a pitcher, or criticizing a player for trying to stretch a single into a double. all criticism uses a crystal ball by nature because it all occurs AFTER the fact.

i was also suggesting that some posters suggested this BEFORE the fact and I was complimenting their foresight.

No - your post is not clear at all. In hindsight, perhaps it would have been better not to have a platoon in the OF, but the fact of the matter is that it was not a mistake. Your language is too harsh. I believe it could be said that it'd be nice to not have the over-populated OF right now, but it's far to harsh to call it a mistake. Since the season has started, Kenny has made no mistakes this year as far as I'm concerned - I'm sure many of you will agree with this.

parlaycard
08-25-2009, 09:01 AM
I am sure Kenny knew that Rios was going to be placed on waivers..and i am sure he was fairly confident that he was going to get him.

im 100% positive he didnt know

SCCWS
08-25-2009, 09:09 AM
No - your post is not clear at all. In hindsight, perhaps it would have been better not to have a platoon in the OF, but the fact of the matter is that it was not a mistake. Your language is too harsh. I believe it could be said that it'd be nice to not have the over-populated OF right now, but it's far to harsh to call it a mistake. Since the season has started, Kenny has made no mistakes this year as far as I'm concerned - I'm sure many of you will agree with this.

Do the Sox have an overpopulated OF or is it really depth. They now have a legit chance to DH a right-hander against lefties. Boston traded for Martinez and they have an overpopulated infield. A good manager will find a way to utilize the 4 and certainly last year down the stretch the Sox wish they had legit depth to replace CQ when he went down.
I would say Kenny has made some mistakes, which every GM can be blamed for. He went into this season without a quality CF and enough starting pitching. It also turned out he did not have an everyday third baseman but Fields needed to prove that. Anderson/Wise/Owens were all questionable based on previous showings although maybe Anderson needed one more chance like Fields.

Save McCuddy's
08-25-2009, 09:13 AM
:bong::bong:

Hitmen77
08-25-2009, 09:18 AM
I don't think retaining Dye was a mistake. I think going into the season banking on Contreras and Colon as the back-end of the rotation was a mistake -- especially when it became clear that Jeff Marquez was not a guy who was ready to step-in.

Ding ding ding ding ding.......we have a winner. I hope KW doesn't make the same mistake for 5th starter again next year.

ike from nj
08-25-2009, 09:26 AM
Do the Sox have an overpopulated OF or is it really depth. They now have a legit chance to DH a right-hander against lefties. Boston traded for Martinez and they have an overpopulated infield. A good manager will find a way to utilize the 4 and certainly last year down the stretch the Sox wish they had legit depth to replace CQ when he went down.
I would say Kenny has made some mistakes, which every GM can be blamed for. He went into this season without a quality CF and enough starting pitching. It also turned out he did not have an everyday third baseman but Fields needed to prove that. Anderson/Wise/Owens were all questionable based on previous showings although maybe Anderson needed one more chance like Fields.
i think it is overpopulated...just my opinion. not the same as boston and martinez who catches also.

ike from nj
08-25-2009, 09:31 AM
Ding ding ding ding ding.......we have a winner. I hope KW doesn't make the same mistake for 5th starter again next year.
mistake or it would be nice to have a different fifth starter. we do not want to be too harsh.

soxfanreggie
08-25-2009, 09:38 AM
I'm not going to get in this about should we have or have not traded him, but I will say it would depend on what we would get. If we got a "great" offer (not saying we would have), I would have made the deal. No player on this team is "untradable", it just would take a heck of an offer to get them (MB, Bacon).

I also find it highly unlikely that any of those teams would have claimed him. Those teams would have been taking on what would be their biggest or one of their biggest payroll liabilities in Rios' contract.

Knowing what the Blue Jays did with the Sox, they would have let him go to any of those teams. They weren't going to keep him on the books.

Redus Redux
08-25-2009, 10:10 AM
What contending team was going to do this? Theyd need to badly have a hole at LF/RF...and then theyd have to be willing to spend a ton on him next year for it to be worthwhile.

jabrch
08-25-2009, 10:28 AM
I stated before the deadling that the Sox were not a very good team
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=114102

Hey - you were wrong then - and you are still wrong. This team is 3.5 games out. You want them to have quit already?

That's silly. Let's play for next year when we are out of it this year.

Craig Grebeck
08-25-2009, 10:29 AM
Hey - you were wrong then - and you are still wrong. This team is 3.5 games out. You want them to have quit already?

That's silly. Let's play for next year when we are out of it this year.
We are not a very good team. Not even kinda good. Average.

voodoochile
08-25-2009, 10:40 AM
We are not a very good team. Not even kinda good. Average.

Yes, but the team could take a big step up if/when Peavy is ready. No, he alone won't guarantee the playoffs, but he alone would make the Sox a very dangerous playoff team with 4 good starting pitchers.

Certainly the offense can get really hot and put big numbers on the board, so get into the playoffs and see what happens. The Sox have played the toughest playoff caliber opponents very tough this year and a good portion of those games have come during the pennant chase.

An average regular season team which is struggling to get on a role just might get on a role come the post season. Certainly there is the pitching talent to do so.

Ranger
08-25-2009, 10:40 AM
We are not a very good team. Not even kinda good. Average.

The team that wins this division probably doesn't have to be all that good. When you're 3.5 games out in late August (regardless of the upcoming schedule), you act like you have a chance. As frustrating as last night was, there are still plenty of games left in this trip and still 6 games in the last week and a half against the division leader. The Sox will simply have to just make a run. That's what being in the race is about. They might overtake the Tigers, and they might not.

I'll never understand this incessant need to be the first person to declare the season over.

KenBerryGrab
08-25-2009, 10:41 AM
You're a standup guy, Ranger, and you give us hope.

However misplaced that hope might be, it's hope!

voodoochile
08-25-2009, 10:42 AM
The team that wins this division probably doesn't have to be all that good. When you're 3.5 games out in late August (regardless of the upcoming schedule), you act like you have a chance. As frustrating as last night was, there are still plenty of games left in this trip and still 6 games in the last week and a half against the division leader. The Sox will simply have to just make a run. That's what being in the race is about. They might overtake the Tigers, and they might not.

I'll never understand this incessant need to be the first person to declare the season over.

Around these parts it's been known to happen in mid-May.

gobears1987
08-25-2009, 10:50 AM
Around these parts it's been known to happen in mid-May.Mid-May? Hell it's been done in January.

Craig Grebeck
08-25-2009, 10:50 AM
Yes, but the team could take a big step up if/when Peavy is ready. No, he alone won't guarantee the playoffs, but he alone would make the Sox a very dangerous playoff team with 4 good starting pitchers.

Certainly the offense can get really hot and put big numbers on the board, so get into the playoffs and see what happens. The Sox have played the toughest playoff caliber opponents very tough this year and a good portion of those games have come during the pennant chase.

An average regular season team which is struggling to get on a role just might get on a role come the post season. Certainly there is the pitching talent to do so.
I admittedly didn't click the link provided by the poster quoted by jabs, but I don't see what the problem is with saying we're average. Sure, if we win the division, it'll be an accomplishment, but we're still a pretty blah ballclub. Peavy can definitely help, but I wouldn't count on him returning to form in this short amount of time.

The team that wins this division probably doesn't have to be all that good. When you're 3.5 games out in late August (regardless of the upcoming schedule), you act like you have a chance. As frustrating as last night was, there are still plenty of games left in this trip and still 6 games in the last week and a half against the division leader. The Sox will simply have to just make a run. That's what being in the race is about. They might overtake the Tigers, and they might not.

I'll never understand this incessant need to be the first person to declare the season over.
Regardless of if we overtake the Tigers, we're not a very good team. I hope we win the division, and I don't the season's over, but I don't see a problem with saying we're just not very good. Or average.

kitekrazy
08-25-2009, 10:51 AM
Everyone assumes a major league team wanted Dye.

He doesn't have the wheels anymore to be a decent outfielder. There's no DH in the NL and most contending AL teams are satisfied with their DH.

We may not know if there were any offers for Dye that would benefit the team.

I would hope the Sox have plans for him to be the DH in 2010.

bigdommer
08-25-2009, 10:59 AM
Trading Dye would have simply been a salary dump, with the White Sox getting next to nothing in return. At which point, WSI posters would have called JR cheap, and second guess KW for not moving Dye last offseason, when he supposedly had more value. It's 2009, not 2006. If you unload a high priced player who is not even an all-star, you are probably not going to fetch much in return.

parlaycard
08-25-2009, 11:03 AM
I would hope the Sox have plans for him to be the DH in 2010.

Based on his most recent numbers, I would hope they dont, at least not at what he has coming to him iof the Sox pick up his option

July .245 5 HR 15 RBI
August .200 1 HR 8 RBI

Those are almost Brian Anderson numbers

Law11
08-25-2009, 11:03 AM
His mistake was relying on Jose and Colon as the season started. You knew it would be a train wreck.

Law11
08-25-2009, 11:08 AM
An average regular season team which is struggling to get on a role just might get on a role come the post season. Certainly there is the pitching talent to do so.

Although not avg in 05 record wise this quote holds some serious weight to it.
6 of the last 9 are against Detroit. The other 3 with Cleve. The season will come down to the last week no question about it. A roll would sure be nice come the week of 9/21

Noneck
08-25-2009, 11:09 AM
His mistake was relying on Jose and Colon as the season started. You knew it would be a train wreck.

And if any injuries occured during season to the top 3 starters, the train wreck would have looked like a day at the beach in comparison.

Law11
08-25-2009, 11:17 AM
And if any injuries occured during season to the top 3 starters, the train wreck would have looked like a day at the beach in comparison.

No doubt but you knew going in the season with those two you were asking for trouble. Injuries to the other three you couldnt avoid and we've been fortunate in that respect.

pmck003
08-25-2009, 11:19 AM
I would be surprised if KW didn't propose/listen to offers for JD. Do you think anyone offered a decent, mlb-ready pitcher for him? I doubt there was an offer for a pitcher guaranteed to be better than what the Sox already had. And yea I think it would of been dumb to trade a guy who has arguably been the best hitter on the team for the last year and a half when you still have a shot at first for anything less than a player who could step in and contribute immediately.

Ranger
08-25-2009, 11:20 AM
You're a standup guy, Ranger, and you give us hope.

However misplaced that hope might be, it's hope!

I don't see how a shred of optimism is misplaced. If that's misplaced, then what's the point of ever watching? More often than not, the odds are going to be against your team winning, but does that mean you shouldn't still hope they do?

I just don't buy into the common idea around here that if you don't think everything's terrible or that Murphy's Law is always applicable, then you must be a Pollyanna.

The Tigers' chances of making it to the postseason are currently greater than those of the Sox, but they're not ridiculously greater. There is still good reason to hope.

MisterB
08-25-2009, 11:24 AM
FYI..on July 31st, Kenny's competition for Rios was:

KC, Cleveland, Oakland, Baltimore, Minnesota...would you honestly think any one of them would claim Rios? With Toronto's financial situation, everyone in the industry knew Toronto would let Rios go to anyone who claimed him.

The problem with this theory is that Rios wasn't on waivers on July 31.

For one: they wouldn't have been needed for a trade at that time.

Two: When a player's placed on waivers there is a 3 day period where he can be claimed. If a claim is put in, there is a 2 day period where the waiving team can withdraw the waiver, work out a trade with the claiming team, or just let the claim go through.

The first report that Rios had been claimed came out Aug. 7, and the Sox announcement was on the 10th. That means that Rios was waived no earlier than Aug. 4th.

Noneck
08-25-2009, 11:28 AM
No doubt but you knew going in the season with those two you were asking for trouble. Injuries to the other three you couldnt avoid and we've been fortunate in that respect.

My point is, yes you knew but you also knew that if at any time during the season any of the top 3 would have had an injury, a train wreck would have been a understatement. This would have been the result of not having a 4 or 5.

pmck003
08-25-2009, 11:42 AM
For comparison the Giants got Garko for a single-A pitcher named Scott Barnes. Dye may have a bit more value than Garko but doubt he has much more; their numbers are actually somewhat similar and Dye is older.

Pear-Zin-Ski
08-25-2009, 11:52 AM
Yes, we all know that hindsight is 20/20, but honestly who thought this year that we would even be CLOSE to first place in the AL Central? Yep yep, the Al Central is a crappy division, I know. Just like the NL Central too eh?

Fact of the matter is we have a chance to win a pennant this year. The situation we have in front of us gives us a great chance. Why make comparisons such as, "well if we were in the AL East, we'd be near the bottom." Guess what, we're not! I'm not that old, but I've seen some crazy craaaazy things happen late in the MLB late in the season.

Keep hope until it's over guys. We know this squad has flaws, they have a lot of bright spots too. This season is what it is, there's not much changing from now until October!

Chez
08-25-2009, 11:52 AM
If Toronto would have been able to trade Halliday (and his salary) for top prospects (which must experts thought was likely at the time), then the Jays may have been willing to hang onto Rios and his salary. So I don't think KW could have traded JD earlier in July (if had wanted to) under the assumption that Rios would inevitably be available for the taking.

Zisk77
08-25-2009, 12:08 PM
Kenny may have been wise not to trade Dye considering that we now may have the option to signing him to a "hometown" iscount and using him as a DH where he still will have more productive years...although someone will be here to tell me he irrevocably trending down in 3...2...1...

dickallen15
08-25-2009, 12:28 PM
Kenny may have been wise not to trade Dye considering that we now may have the option to signing him to a "hometown" iscount and using him as a DH where he still will have more productive years...although someone will be here to tell me he irrevocably trending down in 3...2...1...

He probably doesn't want a paycut and the other thing we don't know is how he feels about being a full time DH. If he signs on with the White Sox next year or his option is picked up, he becomes a 5 and 10 guy, so that means full no trade protection. All these things must factor in the team's decision. I think if he slumps much longer, the decision will be rather easy.

Jim Shorts
08-25-2009, 12:33 PM
He probably doesn't want a paycut and the other thing we don't know is how he feels about being a full time DH. If he signs on with the White Sox next year or his option is picked up, he becomes a 5 and 10 guy, so that means full no trade protection. All these things must factor in the team's decision. I think if he slumps much longer, the decision will be rather easy.

JD has publicly stated that he'd gladly rip up his current contract (option year) and negotiate with the Sox to finish his career here.

I read that on the internets, so it must be true.

ike from nj
08-25-2009, 12:34 PM
Kenny may have been wise not to trade Dye considering that we now may have the option to signing him to a "hometown" iscount and using him as a DH where he still will have more productive years...although someone will be here to tell me he irrevocably trending down in 3...2...1...
more likely scenario would be to sign thome to a home town discount deal so he can chase 600 hr in chi. also thome being lefthanded helps in a sox lineup with konerko, quentin, rios, beckham and alexi.

voodoochile
08-25-2009, 12:40 PM
more likely scenario would be to sign thome to a home town discount deal so he can chase 600 hr in chi. also thome being lefthanded helps in a sox lineup with konerko, quentin, rios, beckham and alexi.

Yes and no. Thome can only DH. Dye would be able to probably handle 80 starts in the OF and give the Sox more flexibility, but if they are strictly looking for a DH then JT makes sense.

TDog
08-25-2009, 01:24 PM
I'm guessing that if Jermaine Dye were playing for the A's this season, Kenny Williams would have tried to trade for him at the All-Star break.

I disagree with the original post.

Hitmen77
08-25-2009, 01:30 PM
I don't see how a shred of optimism is misplaced. If that's misplaced, then what's the point of ever watching? More often than not, the odds are going to be against your team winning, but does that mean you shouldn't still hope they do?

I just don't buy into the common idea around here that if you don't think everything's terrible or that Murphy's Law is always applicable, then you must be a Pollyanna.

The Tigers' chances of making it to the postseason are currently greater than those of the Sox, but they're not ridiculously greater. There is still good reason to hope.

I think what many fans are angry about this year is the shoddy defense and baserunning that is costing the Sox a better chance at the playoffs.

If the Sox were simply an average team that was playing pretty much as expected, then many fans would be more encouraged about the fact they have a chance at the playoffs. But it's not that simple. Almost every game brings more costly errors. Some of these baserunning boners are incredible. (Getting picked off of 3rd Pods?!!:mad:). It's not like the Sox are an average team making a valiant effort at 1st place. With the glaring exception of the huge holes for 4th and 5th starters, the Sox have a pretty talented lineup. Yet, they're giving games away left and right.

hawkjt
08-25-2009, 02:15 PM
I think what many fans are angry about this year is the shoddy defense and baserunning that is costing the Sox a better chance at the playoffs.

If the Sox were simply an average team that was playing pretty much as expected, then many fans would be more encouraged about the fact they have a chance at the playoffs. But it's not that simple. Almost every game brings more costly errors. Some of these baserunning boners are incredible. (Getting picked off of 3rd Pods?!!:mad:). It's not like the Sox are an average team making a valiant effort at 1st place. With the glaring exception of the huge holes for 4th and 5th starters, the Sox have a pretty talented lineup. Yet, they're giving games away left and right.


This is why hope springs eternal in my Sox heart. If they were not talented, I would not hold out much hope. But this team has talent that could concievably put a run together at any time,which will put them in a good position to take the division. Last year they only won 88 regular season games, yet, the day they clinched was a wonderful day for me..and I did not think twice about all the pain and how bad they were the last week. Just win the division,then all the sins are washed away.

As for JD, nah, his is in a deep funk but he is a team leader who I still suspect has a Sept hot streak in him..which might be perfect timing to run the table on the tigers and twins the last 2 weeks.

Lip Man 1
08-25-2009, 02:35 PM
89 regular season wins in 2008. Tie breaker games count as regular season games for all statistical purposes.

Lip

Jim Shorts
08-25-2009, 03:57 PM
89 regular season wins in 2008. Tie breaker games count as regular season games for all statistical purposes.

Lip

Even individual hitting and defensive stats?

[johnny carson voice] I did not know that [/johnny carson voice]

jabrch
08-25-2009, 04:04 PM
I don't see how a shred of optimism is misplaced. If that's misplaced, then what's the point of ever watching? More often than not, the odds are going to be against your team winning, but does that mean you shouldn't still hope they do?

I just don't buy into the common idea around here that if you don't think everything's terrible or that Murphy's Law is always applicable, then you must be a Pollyanna.

The Tigers' chances of making it to the postseason are currently greater than those of the Sox, but they're not ridiculously greater. There is still good reason to hope.


I'm with you Ranger.

This team is good enough to win the World Series. That's all it takes in my book.

voodoochile
08-25-2009, 04:07 PM
Even individual hitting and defensive stats?

[johnny carson voice] I did not know that [/johnny carson voice]

Yes

Lip Man 1
08-25-2009, 04:08 PM
Jab:

Of course if they don't get to the post season the talent level being 'good enough to win it all' is moot.

I guess what I'm saying is talent usually wins out but it's not the only ingredient in the post season mix. To get there, things that are intangible...heart, guts, luck also come into play.

Jim:

Yep. Anything that happens during a tie breaker game from an on the field standpoint...at bats, hits, errors, runs, both team and individual, count in the regular season standings and statistics.

Lip

pudge
08-25-2009, 04:24 PM
i was also suggesting that some posters suggested this BEFORE the fact and I was complimenting their foresight.

Really? Because I think those posters are quitters and losers who will always be "looking to the future" and never winning when they have the chance. You can balance playing for the future and still going for it now. I admire KW for always trying to win while sticking with a plan and not mortgaging the future. What were we really going to get for Dye anyway? And who is to say we're going to lose him for nothing? Not to mention he was one of the hottest hitters at the time, and you're blowing sunshine up these "we're not that good so trade the vets" posters by suggesting they had any idea we would land Rios, which they did not.

jabrch
08-25-2009, 05:14 PM
Jab:

Of course if they don't get to the post season the talent level being 'good enough to win it all' is moot.

I guess what I'm saying is talent usually wins out but it's not the only ingredient in the post season mix. To get there, things that are intangible...heart, guts, luck also come into play.



No doubt Lip. But that's not what this thread was about. There are three things here. There is the input (what the makeup/talent of the team is), there is the process (how/what they do) and there is the result. I think the input for this team is very good. The talent is very good. The process needs some work. The defense and pitching isn't doing what it needs to do. The results? I'll let you know when the season is over. But they have every ounce of talent it takes to win it all. The question is will they?

Is this team perfect? Nope. But it is good enough to do some great things if things break right.

Ranger
08-25-2009, 06:39 PM
I think what many fans are angry about this year is the shoddy defense and baserunning that is costing the Sox a better chance at the playoffs.

If the Sox were simply an average team that was playing pretty much as expected, then many fans would be more encouraged about the fact they have a chance at the playoffs. But it's not that simple. Almost every game brings more costly errors. Some of these baserunning boners are incredible. (Getting picked off of 3rd Pods?!!:mad:). It's not like the Sox are an average team making a valiant effort at 1st place. With the glaring exception of the huge holes for 4th and 5th starters, the Sox have a pretty talented lineup. Yet, they're giving games away left and right.

Of course. Who isn't upset with that stuff? My point is that, even with that stuff, they still have a shot at this division. The Tigers aren't the Yankees or the Angels. Or even the Red Sox. It's not ridiculous to think they still have a legitimate shot at winning the Central.

I'm with you Ranger.

This team is good enough to win the World Series. That's all it takes in my book.

I think if they get there, the talent is good enough to do damage in the playoffs. Everything that happened in the prior 162 games is erased at that point. Their rotation would be better than last year's.

russ99
08-25-2009, 07:22 PM
Actually, Kenny's only mistake wasn't signing Orlando Hudson at his bargain basement salary this year. He'd have produced, either at lead-off or the two spot, played good defense and could have gained us a few extra wins through the first three months.

That's not to say that I don't think Getz is doing a good job, but he had a shaky beginning...

BTW - I still wonder what happened. The beginning of the season, Kenny was talking like they needed to open the Sox soup kitchen this offseason, and now they've come up with enough cash to add Peavy and Rios. Did Jerry win the lottery?

Daver
08-25-2009, 08:05 PM
I think if they get there, the talent is good enough to do damage in the playoffs. Everything that happened in the prior 162 games is erased at that point. Their rotation would be better than last year's.

The poor defense played in those 162 games is not erased, and does not become better by miracle, nor does the starting pitching that has been hit or miss all year. I have little confidence on teams built with an offense first approach, and that is what I think this team is as it sits right now.

Ranger
08-25-2009, 08:20 PM
The poor defense played in those 162 games is not erased, and does not become better by miracle, nor does the starting pitching that has been hit or miss all year. I have little confidence on teams built with an offense first approach, and that is what I think this team is as it sits right now.

I think you're wrong. The bullpen (though it's had it's issues) is still in the top 4 in the AL. A rotation of Buehrle, Danks, Floyd, and Peavy (regardless of order) should be strong. That is good enough pitching to do damage in the playoffs.

It is also not completely out of the question for them to make few enough defensive mistakes to win a couple of playoff series. Just as it is not out of the question for an otherwise solid defensive team to make some big errors at the wrong time.

Daver
08-25-2009, 08:28 PM
I think you're wrong. The bullpen (though it's had it's issues) is still in the top 4 in the AL. A rotation of Buehrle, Danks, Floyd, and Peavy (regardless of order) should be strong. That is good enough pitching to do damage in the playoffs.

It is also not completely out of the question for them to make few enough defensive mistakes to win a couple of playoff series. Just as it is not out of the question for an otherwise solid defensive team to make some big errors at the wrong time.

When was Peavy added to the rotation?And if he was I question the wisdom of doing it now.

To hope a below average defensive team can limit their mistakes is a poor way to approach post season play knowing you are facing the best competetition the league can offer.

I appreciate your optisism, I just don't share it based on what I have seen over 120 +/- games this year.

Frater Perdurabo
08-25-2009, 08:38 PM
When was Peavy added to the rotation?And if he was I question the wisdom of doing it now.

To hope a below average defensive team can limit their mistakes is a poor way to approach post season play knowing you are facing the best competetition the league can offer.

I appreciate your optisism, I just don't share it based on what I have seen over 120 +/- games this year.

Daver, what would you do to improve the defense this year? What would you do to improve it for 2010?

Ranger
08-25-2009, 08:41 PM
When was Peavy added to the rotation?And if he was I question the wisdom of doing it now.

To hope a below average defensive team can limit their mistakes is a poor way to approach post season play knowing you are facing the best competetition the league can offer.

I appreciate your optisism, I just don't share it based on what I have seen over 120 +/- games this year.

Daver, we're talking about the playoffs and what the rotation would be at that point. We aren't talking about the regular season.

I also recognize that teams and players are often bipolar in the postseason. Meaning .320 hitters will often disappear in the playoffs and subpar hitters will become heroes. The Tigers were the 4th worst in the AL in errors in 2006, but went to the Series.

The Sox are capable of making playoff noise if they pitch and hit...regardless of defense.

Frater Perdurabo
08-25-2009, 08:42 PM
The Sox are capable of making playoff noise if they pitch and hit...regardless of defense.

Capable? Sure. But it's more likely that a leaky defense will give the opposition "extra outs" and thus be prone to giving up big innings.

Daver
08-25-2009, 08:50 PM
Daver, what would you do to improve the defense this year? What would you do to improve it for 2010?

It's the end of August, you improve the defense by claiming Alex Rios and using the roster expansion to your advantage.

Jurr
08-25-2009, 08:50 PM
Capable? Sure. But it's more likely that a leaky defense will give the opposition "extra outs" and thus be prone to giving up big innings.

Exactly. And the fact of the matter is this:

The first half of the season was the time to pad the win totals. The Sox took April off, and a bit of May. When they had chances to make a move on Detroit, Bobby had a bad run. The defense has been terrible throughout.

This is not a playoff team, and the next 9 games will play that out.

Frater Perdurabo
08-25-2009, 08:53 PM
It's the end of August, you improve the defense by claiming Alex Rios and using the roster expansion to your advantage.

What Sox minor league callups would improve the team's defense? I'm asking because I am not familiar with the defensive abilities of Sox minor leaguers.

What would you do about 2010? Who would you keep? Who would you let go?

Daver
08-25-2009, 08:54 PM
Daver, we're talking about the playoffs and what the rotation would be at that point. We aren't talking about the regular season.

I also recognize that teams and players are often bipolar in the postseason. Meaning .320 hitters will often disappear in the playoffs and subpar hitters will become heroes. The Tigers were the 4th worst in the AL in errors in 2006, but went to the Series.

The Sox are capable of making playoff noise if they pitch and hit...regardless of defense.

Based on Peavy's rehab starts, were it me I would tell him to get ready for spring training, compensating for a leg injury is a good way to lead to a shoulder injury with a pitcher that throws from his legs.

Jurr
08-25-2009, 08:59 PM
Based on Peavy's rehab starts, were it me I would tell him to get ready for spring training, compensating for a leg injury is a good way to lead to a shoulder injury with a pitcher that throws from his legs.

Yup. C.C. Sabathia wouldn't save this team. Would C.C. do better than what Freddy did tonight? Nope.

It DID NOT MATTER. This team has a struggling pen, an offense that is inept in the clutch, and a whale of a schedule looming.

Get Peavy ready for 2010, when the roster may resemble something closer to a winner. This team pissed away its chance.

Frater Perdurabo
08-25-2009, 09:04 PM
Get Peavy ready for 2010, when the roster may resemble something closer to a winner.

The roster is pretty good. It SHOULD be a winner. But the players aren't performing, and the coaches really aren't getting good results, either.

I am willing to wait and see until where we are at the end of this road trip, but time is running out.

Harry Potter
08-25-2009, 09:06 PM
Mistake = Giving Linebrink a 4 year/19 M contract in the fall of 2007 :angry:

Jurr
08-25-2009, 09:08 PM
The roster is pretty good. It SHOULD be a winner. But the players aren't performing, and the coaches really aren't getting good results, either.

I am willing to wait and see until where we are at the end of this road trip, but time is running out.

Yeah, I was pretty pessimistic about the whole deal going in, but the way they played against the Yankees and Angels surprised me, giving me a little hope.

This team doesn't bounce back well from bad play. This road trip will end it.

Frater Perdurabo
08-25-2009, 09:10 PM
Mistake = Giving Linebrink a 4 year/19 M contract in the fall of 2007 :angry:

I sympathize with your anger and frustration. I really do.

But would we be getting better results from a bargain basement reliever or minor league callup?

The real problem with the Sox bullen is not a lack of talent or too much cost, but rather overexposure. Sox starters - especially the fifth starter spot - have not routinely pitched deep enough into games. This has forced Ozzie - who already is both robotic and spastic with his use of middle relievers - to rely too much on the pen.

Jurr
08-25-2009, 09:13 PM
I sympathize with your anger and frustration. I really do.

But would we be getting better results from a bargain basement reliever or minor league callup?

The real problem with the Sox bullen is not a lack of talent or too much cost, but rather overexposure. Sox starters - especially the fifth starter spot - have not routinely pitched deep enough into games. This has forced Ozzie - who already is both robotic and spastic with his use of middle relievers - to rely too much on the pen.

Yup..it's the same most years with the core of this offensive roster.
Good early pitching wasted by ineptitude on offense. Instead of some laughers where the starters can just eat innings, the team's forced into two months of nailbiters. Bullpen's used up.

Frater Perdurabo
08-25-2009, 09:22 PM
For next year, I'd make these changes:

Dump Contreras, Dye and Thome. Re-sign Dotel and Pods. Get Carl Crawford and have him play RF. (Obviously this assumes the Rays do not pick up his option.) Sign Jon Garland to be the fifth starter. Bring up Hudson to do an apprenticeship facing MLB hitters in the long relief role. Bring up Flowers to be the pinch hitter, and also get a few ABs at 1B, C and DH. Pods and Quentin share DH and LF duties.

Lineup: Pods, Beckham, Crawford, Quentin, Paulie, AJ, Rios, Getz, Alexei
Rotation: Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, Floyd, Garland
Bullpen: Jenks, Thornton, Linebrink, Dotel, Pena, Carrasco, Hudson
Bench: Nix (IF/PR), Castro (C), Kotsay (OF/1B), Flowers (1B/DH/C/PH)

Tragg
08-25-2009, 09:28 PM
For next year, I'd make these changes:

Dump Contreras, Dye and Thome. Re-sign Dotel and Pods. Get Carl Crawford and have him play RF. (Obviously this assumes the Rays do not pick up his option.) Sign Jon Garland to be the fifth starter. Bring up Hudson to do an apprenticeship facing MLB hitters in the long relief role. Bring up Flowers to be the pinch hitter, and also get a few ABs at 1B, C and DH. Pods and Quentin share DH and LF duties.

Lineup: Pods, Beckham, Crawford, Quentin, Paulie, AJ, Rios, Getz, Alexei
Rotation: Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, Floyd, Garland
Bullpen: Jenks, Thornton, Linebrink, Dotel, Pena, Carrasco, Hudson
Bench: Nix (IF/PR), Castro (C), Kotsay (OF/1B), Flowers (1B/DH/C/PH)
I think I'd keep Thome at 1/2 price. Dotel needs to take a c.50% pay cut too.
I'd consider bringing in someone to play 3rd and put Beckham in the middle - maybe.

soxfanreggie
08-25-2009, 09:56 PM
Get Carl Crawford and have him play RF. (Obviously this assumes the Rays do not pick up his option.)

I would put that at about 1,000 to 1. He will have a huge trade value for them.

Craig Grebeck
08-25-2009, 10:27 PM
Daver, we're talking about the playoffs and what the rotation would be at that point. We aren't talking about the regular season.

I also recognize that teams and players are often bipolar in the postseason. Meaning .320 hitters will often disappear in the playoffs and subpar hitters will become heroes. The Tigers were the 4th worst in the AL in errors in 2006, but went to the Series.

The Sox are capable of making playoff noise if they pitch and hit...regardless of defense.
According to UZR, they had the third best defense in baseball that season. Errors are meaningless.

Boondock Saint
08-25-2009, 10:29 PM
According to UZR, they had the third best defense in baseball that season. Errors are meaningless.

Right there's where you lost me.

PennStater98r
08-26-2009, 09:01 AM
mistake or it would be nice to have a different fifth starter. we do not want to be too harsh.

Trading Dye would have been stupid. Period. We may not make the post season - but we're STILL in good shape to play to the wire during the last week. Anyone that thinks Dye didn't contribute to this - is wrong.

If we didn't have Dye prior to Rios coming here, our Outfield would have been the worst outfield in baseball over the last ten years - BY FAR. IN HINDSIGHT, the only mistake I've seen around Kenny not trading Dye is your post...

Mod Edit: This is a personal attack. We don't allow personal attacks. Please comment on the post, not the poster in the future.

Edit: Removed references directed at the poster and adjusted to express that I still feel the posts are inaccurate. I guess I was too harsh.

WisSoxFan
08-26-2009, 09:19 AM
Yup..it's the same most years with the core of this offensive roster.
Good early pitching wasted by ineptitude on offense. Instead of some laughers where the starters can just eat innings, the team's forced into two months of nailbiters. Bullpen's used up.

Great point. It seems like the Sox seldom get wins they cruise to or get blown out and allow the pitching staff to have an easy day. It seems as if every pitch has been under duress for the last two months or more.

PennStater98r
08-26-2009, 09:20 AM
Yes

Wasn't that supposed to be "You are correct sir!"

asindc
08-26-2009, 09:20 AM
According to UZR, they had the third best defense in baseball that season. Errors are meaningless.

... and this is where you lost me. Extra outs ALWAYS matter, even if the consequence is only that it drives up the pitch count.

ike from nj
08-26-2009, 09:35 AM
We also wouldn't want to actually know what we're talking about. I was trying to state it nicely before, but here it is. Dude - you're high. You don't know what you're talking about if you think that Kenny made a mistake. In hindsight, I wish the Sox had Carpenter as their fifth starter - how badly did Kenny screw the pooch on that one? WOW - he sure made a mistake there...

I think you're a stormcloud person. If we didn't have Dye prior to Rios coming here, our Outfield would have been the worst outfield in baseball over the last ten years - BY FAR. IN HINDSIGHT, the only mistake I've seen around Kenny not trading Dye is your post...
getting kind of personal DUDE...Dye has now had second half fades two years in a row...he will be a free agent next season. it is not a stretch to think that was considered in july.

tallfunfit
08-26-2009, 09:37 AM
But you're saying he made a mistake by not trading JD at the All Star break. How is that a mistake? Unless KW has a crystal ball, he had no way of knowing how crowded the outfield would become.
Kenny should know,he put this team together.Kenny hates to play kids,look at what Clayton Richards is doing in SD,and Charley Haeger is looking good with the Dodgers.I hope Kenny will not let this kid Dan Hudson go,looks like a nice pitcher.

munchman33
08-26-2009, 09:46 AM
... and this is where you lost me. Extra outs ALWAYS matter, even if the consequence is only that it drives up the pitch count.

I hate that attitude. Errors aren't the only way extra outs are given. Plenty of guys get by not making errors and giving up way more extra outs because they don't have range or reflexes.

jabrch
08-26-2009, 10:16 AM
Kenny should know,he put this team together.Kenny hates to play kids,look at what Clayton Richards is doing in SD,and Charley Haeger is looking good with the Dodgers.I hope Kenny will not let this kid Dan Hudson go,looks like a nice pitcher.

You must be kidding me....Yeah - I'm guessing this post is a joke.

spawn
08-26-2009, 10:50 AM
Kenny should know,he put this team together.Kenny hates to play kids,look at what Clayton Richards is doing in SD,and Charley Haeger is looking good with the Dodgers.
This is a joke, right? KW hates to play kids? You've got 2 second year players in Alexei Ramirez and TCQ, along with rookies at third (Beckham) and second (Getz,Nix). There are also youngsters in the starting rotation (Danks, Floyd). Clayton Richards was a starter before he was traded. So yeah, KW obviously doesn't like to play kids.:rolleyes:

asindc
08-26-2009, 11:25 AM
I hate that attitude. Errors aren't the only way extra outs are given. Plenty of guys get by not making errors and giving up way more extra outs because they don't have range or reflexes.

I think you misinterpreted my post. Of course, a bad defender can make fewer errors than a better defender simply because he gets to the ball more often. My point is that errors DO matter, even if they don't directly lead to extra runs, contrary to what poster said.

voodoochile
08-26-2009, 11:50 AM
I think you misinterpreted my post. Of course, a bad defender can make fewer errors than a better defender simply because he gets to the ball more often. My point is that errors DO matter, even if they don't directly lead to extra runs, contrary to what poster said.

That was the crux of the Manos V Choice debate. Clayton made fewer errors (about 20 less) but Manos got to something like 100 extra chances a year.

Craig Grebeck
08-26-2009, 12:01 PM
I think you misinterpreted my post. Of course, a bad defender can make fewer errors than a better defender simply because he gets to the ball more often. My point is that errors DO matter, even if they don't directly lead to extra runs, contrary to what poster said.
In terms of evaluating defense, errors are meaningless.

Zisk77
08-26-2009, 04:02 PM
According to UZR, they had the third best defense in baseball that season. Errors are meaningless.

Wasnt this the same tiger team that lost the world series in large part because they couldnt field bunts & comebackers?

UZR rating really?! The tigers had the Monroe-Thames time share in LF both sub par defenders with limited range...ditto for Maggs in Rf. Guillen was horrible and short (a premium position) that year and Shelton was bad at 1st until they got Sean Casey at the deadline. I dont care what the UZR said about the 06 tigers defense. They were bad with limited range.

They won because their young pitchers pitched great and they could hit.

tallfunfit
08-26-2009, 04:21 PM
This is a joke, right? KW hates to play kids? You've got 2 second year players in Alexei Ramirez and TCQ, along with rookies at third (Beckham) and second (Getz,Nix). There are also youngsters in the starting rotation (Danks, Floyd). Clayton Richards was a starter before he was traded. So yeah, KW obviously doesn't like to play kids.:rolleyes:Not kidding, but just the fact that he keeps using Contreas,and brought back Colon and most of our relievers like Randy Williams and this Gibble earlier in the season...heck I love the Sox but we have one pitcher on our team from our minor league system,something is wrong.Getz and Beckham are the reason we should start to get even younger.I am seeing more hunger with these kids/Don't forget Kenny let Sweeny and Gonzalez go to Oakland,both are starting.I like Dye,but way to slow to play the outfield,so we have to get rid of Dye ,Thome and Mr slow foot Koneko.Sorry about the bad spelling...Go Sox

spawn
08-26-2009, 04:25 PM
Not kidding, but just the fact that he keeps using Contreas,and brought back Colon and most of our relievers like Randy Williams and this Gibble earlier in the season...heck I love the Sox but we have one pitcher on our team from our minor league system,something is wrong.
That's an indictment of our farm system, not KW not wanting to play younger players. He used Contreras and Colon because we had no on in the Minors ready to step up and be a starter. You also fail to mention that Torres has started two games, and Poreda was up for a good stretch as well. Clayton Richards started games for the Sox as well. You need to do a little research.

BadBobbyJenks
08-26-2009, 04:40 PM
Kenny should know,he put this team together.Kenny hates to play kids,look at what Clayton Richards is doing in SD,and Charley Haeger is looking good with the Dodgers.I hope Kenny will not let this kid Dan Hudson go,looks like a nice pitcher.


And here I thought 09 was about giving the kids a chance to prove themselves like 3/4 of our infield.

Heager had no one to catch him and this was a terrible park for him. Richard is a back end rotation guy at best, but will probably look better in the NL and in Petco Park. Are you saying you would rather see what Richard could do instead of adding a proven ace like Peavy?

Daver
08-26-2009, 04:43 PM
And here I thought 09 was about giving the kids a chance to prove themselves like 3/4 of our infield.

Heager had no one to catch him and this was a terrible park for him.

Castro can catch a knuckleballer.

spawn
08-26-2009, 04:46 PM
Castro can catch a knuckleballer.
Yeah, but Haeger was gone before we traded for Castro.

Daver
08-26-2009, 04:48 PM
Yeah, but Haeger was gone before we traded for Castro.

The Sox had Donny Lucy then, who could also catch a knuckleballer.

BadBobbyJenks
08-26-2009, 05:00 PM
The Sox had Donny Lucy then, who could also catch a knuckleballer.

Has Donny ever been in the major league plans?

Daver
08-26-2009, 05:08 PM
Has Donny ever been in the major league plans?

Of course not, he's a light hitting defensive player.

Zisk77
08-26-2009, 05:51 PM
Haegar had plenty of chances with the sox but was never good for us. I am glad he is doing good now with the dodgers, but it is no ones fault but his own he didnt succeed with us.

Daver
08-26-2009, 05:57 PM
Haegar had plenty of chances with the sox but was never good for us. I am glad he is doing good now with the dodgers, but it is no ones fault but his own he didnt succeed with us.

Not being able to develop talent is no one's fault?

BadBobbyJenks
08-26-2009, 06:04 PM
Haeger made one start at the majors and he never developed with us?

tallfunfit
08-27-2009, 11:22 AM
That's an indictment of our farm system, not KW not wanting to play younger players. He used Contreras and Colon because we had no on in the Minors ready to step up and be a starter. You also fail to mention that Torres has started two games, and Poreda was up for a good stretch as well. Clayton Richards started games for the Sox as well. You need to do a little research.
Keeny is in charge of our entire organization,and with a weak farm system,he definately is responsible.Who do you think is in charge of the farm system and before Kenny was GM,he ran our farm systwem,which produced nothing...I know Kenny is the greatest,that is with a blank check

tallfunfit
08-27-2009, 11:25 AM
That's an indictment of our farm system, not KW not wanting to play younger players. He used Contreras and Colon because we had no on in the Minors ready to step up and be a starter. You also fail to mention that Torres has started two games, and Poreda was up for a good stretch as well. Clayton Richards started games for the Sox as well. You need to do a little research.
Torres got 2 starts...wow,that really tells you something., but Kenny and Ozzie keep throwing Mr Contreas out there,until theu finaaly pulled the plug.As far as doing research,lets say I forgot more then you will ever know about the sox.I have been a fan for nearly 50 yrs anf I do my homework,just can't say it well on the computer.Care to chat sometime?

spawn
08-27-2009, 11:26 AM
Keeny is in charge of our entire organization,and with a weak farm system,he definately is responsible.Who do you think is in charge of the farm system and before Kenny was GM,he ran our farm systwem,which produced nothing...I know Kenny is the greatest,that is with a blank check
I know he's in chage of the minor league system, but your inital post claimed he hates to play younger players, and that is absolutely false.

tallfunfit
08-27-2009, 11:27 AM
And here I thought 09 was about giving the kids a chance to prove themselves like 3/4 of our infield.

Heager had no one to catch him and this was a terrible park for him. Richard is a back end rotation guy at best, but will probably look better in the NL and in Petco Park. Are you saying you would rather see what Richard could do instead of adding a proven ace like Peavy?
Don't seel Richards short,he is young and a lot of upswing,meanwhile he just shut the Cards out last week and Peavy will not pitch this year,we could have got Peavy in the offseason

spawn
08-27-2009, 11:28 AM
Torres got 2 starts...wow,that really tells you something., but Kenny and Ozzie keep throwing Mr Contreas out there,until theu finaaly pulled the plug.As far as doing research,lets say I forgot more then you will ever know about the sox.I have been a fan for nearly 50 yrs anf I do my homework,just can't say it well on the computer.Care to chat sometime?
Once again, you said he doesn't like to play younger players. You're wrong. I don't care if you've been a fan for over 50 years, you're absolutely way off base on this particular issue.

soxinem1
08-27-2009, 12:48 PM
Hindsight posts and opinions really bother me, especially when the guy in question should not be traded anyway.

kitekrazy
08-27-2009, 01:13 PM
we could have got Peavy in the offseason

??????? Maybe I need to wax my crystal ball.

They tried that.

spawn
08-27-2009, 01:14 PM
??????? Maybe I need to wax my crystal ball.

They tried that.
He's probably meaning this upcoming offseason. After all, Clayton Richards woud've been the turning point during the current slide.

Nellie_Fox
08-27-2009, 02:18 PM
Keeny is in charge of our entire organization,and with a weak farm system,he definately is responsible.Who do you think is in charge of the farm system and before Kenny was GM,he ran our farm systwem,which produced nothing...I know Kenny is the greatest,that is with a blank check

Torres got 2 starts...wow,that really tells you something., but Kenny and Ozzie keep throwing Mr Contreas out there,until theu finaaly pulled the plug.As far as doing research,lets say I forgot more then you will ever know about the sox.I have been a fan for nearly 50 yrs anf I do my homework,just can't say it well on the computer.Care to chat sometime?

Don't seel Richards short,he is young and a lot of upswing,meanwhile he just shut the Cards out last week and Peavy will not pitch this year,we could have got Peavy in the offseasonIf you proofread before you click "submit reply," your vast knowledge will come across more authoritatively.

P.S., I've been a Sox fan for well over fifty years, but I don't believe that I've forgotten more than other posters will ever know. That's an arrogant statement.

soxinem1
08-27-2009, 02:24 PM
If you proofread before you click "submit reply," your vast knowledge will come across more authoritatively.

P.S., I've been a Sox fan for well over fifty years, but I don't believe that I've forgotten more than other posters will ever know. That's an arrogant statement.

Wow, Nellie, doesn't it make you feel special to get chewed out by a know it all with 50 years of fan experience who cannot spell worth a ****??:smile:

tallfunfit
08-27-2009, 05:28 PM
??????? Maybe I need to wax my crystal ball.

They tried that.
so now they get a injured player....way to go....Didn't see anyone else go after Peavy since he has been injured.Watch Peavys numbers skyrocket in the AL, hope I am wrong

tallfunfit
08-27-2009, 05:30 PM
Just by trading Richards,Sweeny Gonzalez,Brandon Allen,letting Haeger go ans a few I am missing goes to show he likes veterans like Colon,Griffey,Garcia,guys washed up,way past their prime

tallfunfit
08-27-2009, 05:33 PM
If you proofread before you click "submit reply," your vast knowledge will come across more authoritatively.

P.S., I've been a Sox fan for well over fifty years, but I don't believe that I've forgotten more than other posters will ever know. That's an arrogant statement.
I will never argue with a Sox fan...we are in this together...just like to see even more young blood in this lineup.If we are ever going to be a world class team,we need to beef up our farm system and once again that is Kennys job.