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View Full Version : *Official* "I wish I could have these 3+ hours back" 8/24/09 Postgame Thread


Viva Medias B's
08-24-2009, 10:52 PM
Discuss, boys and girls. And I'll start the discussion by saying that we better "send a message" to them tomorrow night after they threw at Paulie twice. Papelbon is a snot-nosed punk.

SoxGirl4Life
08-24-2009, 10:52 PM
At least we scored some runs :dunno:

DirtySox
08-24-2009, 10:53 PM
The cake is now sad cake.

Jaffar
08-24-2009, 10:53 PM
indeed!

Soxgirl22
08-24-2009, 10:53 PM
Well, that sucked. At least our offense certainly showed some promise tonight.

GoGoCrede
08-24-2009, 10:53 PM
My head's pounding. Some truly comedic moments, though. It's either laugh or cry. I choose laugh.

Dibbs
08-24-2009, 10:53 PM
This team is incredibly frustrating. Bad News Bears.

DrCrawdad
08-24-2009, 10:54 PM
One of the ugliest games I've watched. Somebody's head should roll for this one.

VeeckAsInWreck
08-24-2009, 10:54 PM
Well, at least the offense looked better!

Get 'em tomorrow.

kevingrt
08-24-2009, 10:54 PM
That was hilarious and maddening and depressing and flat out bad.

Ugh. long night.

Konerko05
08-24-2009, 10:54 PM
I'm just about at that point.

I think I've held on quite a while.

BadBobbyJenks
08-24-2009, 10:54 PM
:soxwin:

SoxGirl4Life
08-24-2009, 10:54 PM
My head's pounding. Some truly comedic moments, though. It's either laugh or cry. I choose laugh.

Me too Crede..

1989
08-24-2009, 10:54 PM
All i know is, Freddy better show up tomorrow. His MLB career depends on it.

thomas35forever
08-24-2009, 10:54 PM
If things don't change, this will be the turning point in our season. Building a nice lead early and then crapping the bed in every way possible. I still believe, but my confidence is slipping away like grains of sand.

Jaffar
08-24-2009, 10:54 PM
My head's pounding. Some truly comedic moments, though. It's either laugh or cry. I choose laugh.

In the game or the chat?

twinsuck
08-24-2009, 10:54 PM
Sox win!

LoveYourSuit
08-24-2009, 10:54 PM
Up 4-1 and a pitching match up that favored you a bit .... we pissed another big one away.


Whatever, no sense to get made anymore. Call a spaded a spade = WE SUCK :(:

DrCrawdad
08-24-2009, 10:55 PM
Well, that sucked. At least our offense certainly showed some promise tonight.

Yeah, and tomorrow they'll lose 3-1.

:angry::mad::whiner::(:

CWSpalehoseCWS
08-24-2009, 10:55 PM
Horrible game. Hopefully Detroit loses to lessen the pain. I think it might be safe to say Contreras is done as a starter.

doublem23
08-24-2009, 10:55 PM
Good offense = Terrible pitching

Terrible offense = Good pitching

That's just the way it's been this year.

SoxGirl4Life
08-24-2009, 10:55 PM
Yeah, and tomorrow they'll lose 3-1.

:angry::mad::whiner::(:

You know that already? I gotta find a bookie

GoGoCrede
08-24-2009, 10:55 PM
In the game or the chat?

Both. And the Miller Lite.

Jaffar
08-24-2009, 10:55 PM
Sorry Soxgirl, I thought you had it!

Patrick134
08-24-2009, 10:56 PM
For the crowd always posting "we should be running away with this division" every other day. the Sox have given 40% of their starts to either has-been pitchers that they hoped had some magic left, or young kids getting their feet wet. Given that fact on top of the hot-cold offense, it's amazing that they're anywhere near the top of the division.

SoxGirl4Life
08-24-2009, 10:56 PM
Sorry Soxgirl, I thought you had it!

Me too.. :sigh: I don't know if I can carry on.

captainclutch24
08-24-2009, 10:56 PM
All you can do is laugh, and realize it is almost over. Sox are a game up on Twins and I imagine by friday we will be in third. We either can't hit, can't pitch, can't field, or some sort of combination.

veeter
08-24-2009, 10:56 PM
Two guys that are hard for me to watch, really sucked tonight. Jose and Dotel can't leave town fast enough. I love the Sox bats, but after that it's too sloppy for words. The sixth tool, the brain, eludes this team.

Lip Man 1
08-24-2009, 10:56 PM
Now THAT'S the Jose Contreras we've all come to know, love and respect!

The second something happens on the field (ironically of his own doing this time) he completely falls apart.

It's embarrassing that the organization has no other options.

Lip

LoveYourSuit
08-24-2009, 10:56 PM
If things don't change, this will be the turning point in our season. Building a nice lead early and then crapping the bed in every way possible. I still believe, but my confidence is slipping away like grains of sand.


Turning point to me was a every Sunday sweep chance we pissed away.

Patrick134
08-24-2009, 10:57 PM
Up 4-1 and a pitching match up that favored you a bit .... we pissed another big one away.


Whatever, no sense to get made anymore. Call a spaded a spade = WE SUCK :(:


Every agonizing miscue in that 6 run inning was Jose's. The rest of the team may as well have been sitting on their gloves.

Tragg
08-24-2009, 10:57 PM
All year long, we've seen
Bad defense
Mental errors
And tonight (and other nights): Waiting until you are completely out of the game before changing pitchers

If this were football, the finger would be pointed directly at the coaching staff.

And how long do the Sox hold a roster spot for DeWayne Haley?

Soxgirl22
08-24-2009, 10:57 PM
Me too.. :sigh: I don't know if I can carry on.

We support you! :smile:

And, I choose to be an optomist about the rest of this series. We've played to the level of our competition before.

BadBobbyJenks
08-24-2009, 10:57 PM
At least we dont put our sox in with the colors. Dumbasses.

DrCrawdad
08-24-2009, 10:57 PM
Good offense = Terrible pitching

Terrible offense = Good pitching

That's just the way it's been this year.

You know that already? I gotta find a bookie

That's what I was referring to, as doublem23 pointed out. The one constant this year though, embarrassing defense.

doublem23
08-24-2009, 10:58 PM
It's embarrassing that the organization has no other options.

You're right, every other team in baseball has 7-8 quality starting pitchers lining its depth chart.

:rolleyes:

You wanna be mad, fine, be mad. But at least live here in Planet Reality.

captainclutch24
08-24-2009, 10:58 PM
Horrible game. Hopefully Detroit loses to lessen the pain. I think it might be safe to say Contreras is done as a starter.

I doubt it. He should have been done 2 months ago but with Ozzie and Kenny calling the shots I bet he will be back saturday

Brian26
08-24-2009, 10:58 PM
For the crowd always posting "we should be running away with this division" every other day. the Sox have given 40% of their starts to either has-been pitchers that they hoped had some magic left, or young kids getting their feet wet. Given that fact on top of the hot-cold offense, it's amazing that they're anywhere near the top of the division.

It's maddening. With the number of games they've given away late, they should be in first place by a couple of games. Then again, with the way they've played, it's ridiculous that they're not 12 games back.

Just goes to show you that Detroit sucks too.

chisoxfanatic
08-24-2009, 10:58 PM
If things don't change, this will be the turning point in our season. Building a nice lead early and then crapping the bed in every way possible. I still believe, but my confidence is slipping away like grains of sand.
Isn't that how almost every one of Jose's starts go?

LoveYourSuit
08-24-2009, 10:59 PM
For the crowd always posting "we should be running away with this division" every other day. the Sox have given 40% of their starts to either has-been pitchers that they hoped had some magic left, or young kids getting their feet wet. Given that fact on top of the hot-cold offense, it's amazing that they're anywhere near the top of the division.


Please.

EVERY DAMN TEAM does not have 5 lock down starters in their rotation.

PhillipsBubba
08-24-2009, 10:59 PM
Discuss, boys and girls. And I'll start the discussion by saying that we better "send a message" to them tomorrow night after they threw at Paulie twice. Papelbon is a snot-nosed punk.

That's funny...why would anyone throw at PK...he sucks...we have bigger problems than somebody throwing at an ice cold hitter:scratch:

DrCrawdad
08-24-2009, 11:00 PM
All year long, we've seen
Bad defense
Mental errors
And tonight (and other nights): Waiting until you are completely out of the game before changing pitchers

If this were football, the finger would be pointed directly at the coaching staff.

And how long do the Sox hold a roster spot for DeWayne Haley?

Exactly! Jeez, wait until Hose A all but breaks down on the mound in tears till you take him out.

I'll be root, root, rooting for the White Sox till the end but this team is horrendous at the defense and mental side of the game.

PhillipsBubba
08-24-2009, 11:01 PM
Let's sign Jose to a long term contract...for comic relief of course...

Nelfox02
08-24-2009, 11:01 PM
should the at bat between Lowell and Jose ever happened?

okay, the horrible botched play on Ortiz, after he gives a gift ground out on a 3-0 pitch still 4-2, a walked in run, a wild pitch, Jose is clearly totallly fallen apart

so why in the name of god is he pitching to Lowell Dj not ready? ozzie, AJ, stall for time get him ready do what it takes that 3 run homer, who knows, maybe DJ comes and and serves it up but at least try something

Even if Jose had gotten that out, he is still not coming back for the 4th, he was over 90 pitches and totally gassed, so you cant even say you were trying to save the pen

I cant wait to watch the post game show and have it justified to me why Jose will pitch again cant wait :angry:

WhiteSox1989
08-24-2009, 11:02 PM
Get 'em tomorrow!

Patrick134
08-24-2009, 11:02 PM
should the at bat between Lowell and Jose ever happened?

okay, the horrible botched play on Ortiz, after he gives a gift ground out on a 3-0 pitch still 4-2, a walked in run, a wild pitch, Jose is clearly totallly fallen apart

so why in the name of god is he pitching to Lowell Dj not ready? ozzie, AJ, stall for time get him ready do what it takes that 3 run homer, who knows, maybe DJ comes and and serves it up but at least try something

Even if Jose had gotten that out, he is still not coming back for the 4th, he was over 90 pitches and totally gassed, so you cant even say you were trying to save the pen

I cant wait to watch the post game show and have it justified to me why Jose will pitch again cant wait :angry:

Great point, I remember before the Lowell AB wondering why they even left Jose out there.

Konerko05
08-24-2009, 11:02 PM
Contreras did just about everything a pitcher could possibly do wrong in the 3rd inning.

I'm not really sure we could even limp into the playoffs with horrible defense, a shaky bullpen, a rapidly aging heart of the lineup, and a black hole at the back end of the rotation.

Rushing Peavy back will not save us.

Yeah, I just made the switch from being positive about our talent to dwelling on the massive negatives. Maybe I'm finally thinking clearly.

doublem23
08-24-2009, 11:03 PM
Contreras did just about everything a pitcher could possibly do wrong in the 3rd inning.

I'm not really sure we could even limp into the playoffs with horrible defense, a shaky bullpen, a rapidly aging heart of the lineup, and a black hole at the back end of the rotation.

Rushing Peavy back will not save us.

Yeah, I just made the switch from being positive about our talent to dwelling on the massive negatives. Maybe I'm finally thinking clearly.

They'll win tomorrow and you'll be right back on the trolley. You'll see.

Tragg
08-24-2009, 11:04 PM
so why in the name of god is he pitching to Lowell Dj not ready? ozzie,

Because the manager, like many of the players, makes a lot of mental errors.
But no one is held accountable, except the occasional rookie who finds himself banished.

And DJ should not be the only long option....

GoGoCrede
08-24-2009, 11:05 PM
I've never doubted Jose's passion for the game and his work ethic. He's worked his ass off to get back, which is why it breaks my heart to say that he's probably done.

PhillipsBubba
08-24-2009, 11:05 PM
Get 'em tomorrow!

Gee wilakers...I agree...golly gee

Soxman219
08-24-2009, 11:05 PM
Sometimes I just wish the Tigers could just go in a winning streak and just take the division. half/teal.

Now the Twins all of a sudden are back in it. Bad times. :(:

Konerko05
08-24-2009, 11:05 PM
They'll win tomorrow and you'll be right back on the trolley. You'll see.

I've been on the brink for a while now, but I keep telling people I can't throw in the towel when we are so close to a very average team in the standings. But at some point, you just have to realize this team is not going to miraculously start playing better. I hope I'm wrong.

BadBobbyJenks
08-24-2009, 11:07 PM
The Sox never gave up!

Frankfan4life
08-24-2009, 11:07 PM
Ugh! I can't believe wearing the high socks didn't work on Contreas (thanks for nothing El Duque)! Maybe next time he should try wearing his hat to the side or pressing the brim.

Seriously, I just can't get over the fact that he couldn't pick up a slow roller and toss the ball to first base. I'll be replaying that miscue in my head all night along with the Nix mistake and the Sox continued failures to hit the cutoff man. Brutal!

Boondock Saint
08-24-2009, 11:07 PM
I'm starting to lose faith in this year's team. It's just one agonizing kick in the junk after another.

WhiteSox1989
08-24-2009, 11:08 PM
Gee wilakers...I agree...golly gee

Oh okay. Cool. But it's better to say that then bitch and moan for two hours. It's not the end of the world when the Sox lose. The horror, right?

GoGoCrede
08-24-2009, 11:08 PM
According to Gonzales' Twitter, Jose is going to the pen, per Ozzie.

whitesoxfan
08-24-2009, 11:08 PM
Well, at least Contreras got his ass demoted to the pen. We may have seen Jose's last start in a Sox uniform.

Lip Man 1
08-24-2009, 11:08 PM
Double:

They don't have a minor league system?

I repeat, it's flat out ****ing embarrassing they don't have any other options.

The back end of the rotation is now 12-22 on the season... 'planet reality' says they don't even have four decent pitchers.

I wasn't pissed, I wasn't even mad I EXPECTED Contreras to flat out suck. I didn't get pissed until I read your comment.

Lip

DirtySox
08-24-2009, 11:10 PM
Double:

They don't have a minor league system?

I repeat, it's flat out ****ing embarrassing they don't have any other options.

The back end of the rotation is now 12-22 on the season... 'planet reality' says they don't even have four decent pitchers.

I wasn't pissed, I wasn't even mad I EXPECTED Contreras to flat out suck. I didn't get pissed until I read your comment.

Lip

Don't you advocate trading our prospects or signing free agents to avoid unproven youth? They traded a whole bunch of pitching prospects to get Peavy and there is only one top pitching prospect left. It's tough to have it both ways.

BadBobbyJenks
08-24-2009, 11:10 PM
Double:

They don't have a minor league system?

I repeat, it's flat out ****ing embarrassing they don't have any other options.

The back end of the rotation is now 12-22 on the season... 'planet reality' says they don't even have four decent pitchers.

I wasn't pissed, I wasn't even mad I EXPECTED Contreras to flat out suck. I didn't get pissed until I read your comment.

Lip

Weren't the Yankees just trotting out Sergio Mitre?

Didn't the Red Sox just release the 40 year old Smoltz? Oh and they are stuck with Penny because no one would take him.

WhiteSox1989
08-24-2009, 11:11 PM
According to Gonzales' Twitter, Jose is going to the pen, per Ozzie.

Good. I wondered oh, three starts ago why Jose wasn't in the pen. It doesn't hurt to put him there. I mean...he typically falls apart after the third inning.

SoxGirl4Life
08-24-2009, 11:11 PM
ugh! I can't believe wearing the high socks didn't work on contreas (thanks for nothing el duque)! Maybe next time he should try wearing his hat to the side or pressing the brim.

Seriously, i just can't get over the fact that he couldn't pick up a slow roller and toss the ball to first base. I'll be replaying that miscue in my head all night along with the nix mistake and the sox continued failures to hit the cutoff man. Brutal!

lmao

Konerko05
08-24-2009, 11:11 PM
The Sox never gave up!

Yep, and a very successful 9th inning because Quentin was able to see a couple extra pitches off Papelbon. I think that was really the springboard this team needs to pass Detroit.

DirtySox
08-24-2009, 11:11 PM
Does Jose going to the pen mean Peavy is ready to come back and Freddy is the 5th starter?

WhiteSox1989
08-24-2009, 11:11 PM
Diggin' all the sarcasm.

Nelfox02
08-24-2009, 11:12 PM
and now tomorow you throw Garcia, who gave no indication last time around that he still can be a major league pitcher......

I know, no team has 5 aces, few have 4, that being said you cant have guys at the back end of your rotation that are physcially and/or mentally unable to pitch at the big league level

i dont follow our minor league system as much as I should, but for the love of god bring someone, anyone up to take Jose's spot, and probably Freddy whoever comes up may get rocked, fine, at least try something anything

doublem23
08-24-2009, 11:13 PM
Double:

They don't have a minor league system?

I repeat, it's flat out ****ing embarrassing they don't have any other options.

The back end of the rotation is now 12-22 on the season... 'planet reality' says they don't even have four decent pitchers.

I wasn't pissed, I wasn't even mad I EXPECTED Contreras to flat out suck. I didn't get pissed until I read your comment.

Lip

Lip,

Even the Dodgers, who have been cruising with one of the best records in baseball since Day 1 are having all sorts of problems with the back end of their rotation. The Cardinals, who have the best record in the N.L., just had to pick up the skeleton of John Smoltz to hopefully stabilize the back of their rotation. Your model franchise, spend-aholic Yankees are trotting Sergio Mitre out there every 5th day.

Every team has trouble at the back end of their rotation. Quality pitching is a very, very rare resource. Nobody has enough. If you really think the Sox are the only team in the league that just doesn't have this untapped plethora of quality MLB arms, you're absolutely crazy.

Again, I'm not saying you can't be annoyed, upset, or whatever, by this phenomenon, I'm just asking you vent your anger at the appropriate targets.

veeter
08-24-2009, 11:13 PM
Does Jose going to the pen mean Peavy is ready to come back and Freddy is the 5th starter?Could be. Daniel Hudson could be coming up too.

guillensdisciple
08-24-2009, 11:14 PM
I am happy I had work today. When is Hudson going to come up?

doublem23
08-24-2009, 11:15 PM
I am happy I had work today. When is Hudson going to come up?

2010, hopefully.

DirtySox
08-24-2009, 11:15 PM
Could be. Daniel Hudson could be coming up too.

FWIW he pitched tonight:

5.0 IP 4 H 3 ER 3 BB 7 K

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t=g_box&gid=2009_08_24_chraaa_gwiaaa_2&did=t494&sid=t494

tsoxman
08-24-2009, 11:15 PM
Now THAT'S the Jose Contreras we've all come to know, love and respect!

The second something happens on the field (ironically of his own doing this time) he completely falls apart.

It's embarrassing that the organization has no other options.

Lip
And at what point is the GM accountable?

DirtySox
08-24-2009, 11:16 PM
I am happy I had work today. When is Hudson going to come up?

Probably a callup sometime in 2010.

Konerko05
08-24-2009, 11:17 PM
FWIW he pitched tonight:

5.0 IP 4 H 3 ER 3 BB 7 K

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t=g_box&gid=2009_08_24_chraaa_gwiaaa_2&did=t494&sid=t494

Second outing in a row he couldn't make it past the fifth because of a high pitch count.

There is no way they are bringing him up to take Contreras' spot.

TomBradley72
08-24-2009, 11:17 PM
Had to work on my company's 2010 budget until 10pm tonight...never thought I'd be glad to be working on a budget vs. watching a White Sox/Red Sox game in late August while we're (allegedly) in a pennant race....but I didn't see a single pitch...glad I missed it.

Nelfox02
08-24-2009, 11:18 PM
I am still scratching my head about Jose pitching to Lowell Just at a loss there

I know we love DJ in the long relief role, and dont get me wrong it is a huge plus to have a quality long man in your pen but at this point, if we are still serious about making the post season, giving DJ a shot to start and potentially having a 4th or 5th starter that can give you 4-5 innings and KEEP YOU IN A GAME is a more valuble commodity

I know he wasnt lights out tonight, but overall I think the guy has earned a chance starting to get a bit desperate here

I would rather give DJ a shot at yankee stadium than a guy from AAA....

DirtySox
08-24-2009, 11:19 PM
Second outing in a row he couldn't make it past the fifth because of a high pitch count.

There is no way they are bringing him up to take Contreras' spot.

I'd tend to agree. I don't think he has a whole lot left in him this year. He has pitched quite a bit in quite a few different places. (and different levels)

tsoxman
08-24-2009, 11:19 PM
Lip,

Even the Dodgers, who have been cruising with one of the best records in baseball since Day 1 are having all sorts of problems with the back end of their rotation. The Cardinals, who have the best record in the N.L., just had to pick up the skeleton of John Smoltz to hopefully stabilize the back of their rotation. Your model franchise, spend-aholic Yankees are trotting Sergio Mitre out there every 5th day.

Every team has trouble at the back end of their rotation. Quality pitching is a very, very rare resource. Nobody has enough. If you really think the Sox are the only team in the league that just doesn't have this untapped plethora of quality MLB arms, you're absolutely crazy.

Again, I'm not saying you can't be annoyed, upset, or whatever, by this phenomenon, I'm just asking you vent your anger at the appropriate targets.
A fifth starter problem abounds, for sure, but both a fourth and fifth starter? Not if you call youself a contender.

Boondock Saint
08-24-2009, 11:19 PM
And at what point is the GM accountable?

KW is trying. He hasn't found the right guy to fill the role, but he is trying. Bartolo, Garcia, Torres, Carrasco, etc...

GoGoCrede
08-24-2009, 11:20 PM
Here's some good news, but it's from Cowley so take it for what it's worth:

Coop said Peavy will be the starter on Saturday if he says he's ready. They will know more tomorrow.

Marqhead
08-24-2009, 11:20 PM
Save us Jake Peavy!!!

tsoxman
08-24-2009, 11:20 PM
KW is trying. He hasn't found the right guy to fill the role, but he is trying. Bartolo, Garcia, Torres, Carrasco, etc...

Teal, correct?

DirtySox
08-24-2009, 11:21 PM
Here's some good news, but it's from Cowley so take it for what it's worth:

Coop said Peavy will be the starter on Saturday if he says he's ready. They will know more tomorrow.

I hope they aren't rushing him back just because of tonight's debacle.

Boondock Saint
08-24-2009, 11:21 PM
Teal, correct?

What about that post was confusing?

Patrick134
08-24-2009, 11:21 PM
I hope they aren't rushing him back just because of tonight's debacle.

Amen, they could rush him back just to lose a 1-0 game anyway.

tsoxman
08-24-2009, 11:24 PM
What about that post was confusing?

Colon, Contreras, Carrasco and Torrez? Remember, we have to fill two rotation spots not just one.

Boondock Saint
08-24-2009, 11:25 PM
Colon, Contreras, Carrasco and Torrez? Remember, we have to fill two rotation spots not just one.

And what about that says "Kenny Williams is not trying to fill those holes"?

Nelfox02
08-24-2009, 11:26 PM
Whatever happened to Torres? he had a decent enough first outing, and then a crummy second outing with walks.....then gone Jose, all thiese awful awful outings all year, I know the guy is a vet and getting paid a ton, but why so quick to say good bye to torres, because the bar is so high to pitch at the back end of the rotation (garcia and jose???)

The Immigrant
08-24-2009, 11:26 PM
Meh. I take solace in the fact that Contreras will be gone at the end of this year, if not sooner. Watching him pitch is torture.

DirtySox
08-24-2009, 11:28 PM
Whatever happened to Torres? he had a decent enough first outing, and then a crummy second outing with walks.....then gone Jose, all thiese awful awful outings all year, I know the guy is a vet and getting paid a ton, but why so quick to say good bye to torres, because the bar is so high to pitch at the back end of the rotation (garcia and jose???)

Torres continues to pitch adequately in AAA, but has been walking a few too many people lately. He isn't really much of a prospect at his age, but he still might be useful as a stopgap or a spot starter.

Lip Man 1
08-24-2009, 11:30 PM
I'll take these one at a time.

Double:

First off, I honestly appreciate your clarification. Not being smarmy or sarcastic. Your follow up post was better worded and I understand where you're coming from.
-----------------------------

To the others (including Love, Bad Bobby etc.)

The Sox still have a minor league system, there are pitchers in it, last I looked, EVEN AFTER THE PEAVY DEAL. Practically ANYBODY in that system in the upper levels, can give the Sox what Contreras is giving them. Few innings, big deficits, no chance to win.

More importantly (and this is a real pet peeve of mine...)

There’s also another group at White Sox Interactive who actually said (paraphrasing) ‘well no one has a good 5th starter, not even the Yankees…’

So the White Sox shouldn’t have an edge over the rest of baseball by getting one? OK…..

How much of an advantage could it be to actually have a reasonable chance to win the regular season games that the 5th starter will pitch? That’s a significant number of games you’re looking at here, 25 to 30 in a season. The Sox have basically been throwing them away.

If Kenny Williams does nothing else this off season, he needs to fix this.

And to be clear, we’re not talking about a 20 game winner, or an All Star, or a guy making 15 million a season. We’re talking about a competent veteran who can give you some innings and keep you in the game. With the off season expected to tilt in favor of the buyer again, there should be pitchers out there who fit the bill for a reasonable price.

Lip

Nelfox02
08-24-2009, 11:31 PM
Torres continues to pitch adequately in AAA, but has been walking a few too many people lately. He isn't really much of a prospect at his age, but he still might be useful as a stopgap or a spot starter.


I ll take it, anyone, over Jose

and I hate to say it, but win or lose tomorrow, I am guessing the game thread will have a lot of same discussions for Freddy as we are having about Jose right now

tsoxman
08-24-2009, 11:31 PM
And what about that says "Kenny Williams is not trying to fill those holes"?

Maybe what Kenny should have done was to do more of his 'heavy lifting' in the off season and get somebody other than Bartolo Colon, whio was a last minute sigining and Contreras, who wasn't even being counted on to pitch until mid-season. My question to our GM is, what was his plan in February in filling the fourth and fifth spots in the rotation?

Hands down this last off season was Kenny's worst ever.

BadBobbyJenks
08-24-2009, 11:34 PM
-Lip-

I take it you will only be happy if Kenny Williams builds a perfect team. We cannot have a weakness at the back end of the rotation, the last men out of the pen or the last man off the bench.

I am sure Kenny Williams will eventually build this perfect team and you can enjoy being a fan again. Until then.

-BBJ-

DirtySox
08-24-2009, 11:36 PM
-Lip-

I take it you will only be happy if Kenny Williams builds a perfect team. We cannot have a weakness at the back end of the rotation, the last men out of the pen or the last man off the bench.

I am sure Kenny Williams will eventually build this perfect team and you can enjoy being a fan again. Until then.

-BBJ-

Kudos

Lip Man 1
08-24-2009, 11:37 PM
Bobby:

Read my post. The Sox shouldn't have that advantage? OK.....whatever you say.

I enjoy winning period, nothing else matters.

If you have an issue with that I'm sorry for you and all your "smart" one liners and put down's won't change that.

Dirty:

I take it then you enjoyed tonight's performance? Let's have another beer!

Lip

Lip Man 1
08-24-2009, 11:40 PM
TSoxman:

As bad as it is, it could have been worse. Remember the original plan was for the last two spots to be filled "ably" I might add by Clayton Richard and Jeff Marquez!

:o:

Lip

WhiteSox5187
08-24-2009, 11:41 PM
I have a lot of respect for Jose and what he's done especially rushing to try and come back and help this year, but...he's done. I think it's really mental cuz he gets rattled so easily out there. It's sad to see this.

russ99
08-24-2009, 11:42 PM
My issue isn't the 5th starter spot per se, it's what we're trying to fill it with.

We should bring up Torres, Whistler, Egbert, Marquez, Cassell, Ely, Hudson - anyone who can improve themselves with a cup of coffee, not a too-close-to-40 year old trying to collect one last paycheck...

BadBobbyJenks
08-24-2009, 11:42 PM
Bobby:

Read my post. The Sox shouldn't have that advantage? OK.....whatever you say.

I enjoy winning period, nothing else matters.

If you have an issue with that I'm sorry for you and all your "smart" one liners and put down's won't change that.




Lip

No matter the weakness, you are not happy. Do you care to disagree with this statement?

A fact of life is that no GM can build the perfect team. Every hole cannot be filled, but yet you will not be happy until it is. Jake Peavy is on the way, if he had not vetoed the trade in the first place, maybe the back end would not be a huge issue.

I didnt realize that was a one liner, because you know it was more than one line.

Like I said before I am rooting for a perfect team to be assembled so we can see a happy go lucky Lip post in these threads.

-BBJ-

Lip Man 1
08-24-2009, 11:43 PM
Bad:

2005. Nuff said.

And I know when someone is trying to use a put down, I'm Polish...I'm not stupid. Stop trying to split hairs.

Lip

BadBobbyJenks
08-24-2009, 11:45 PM
Bad:

2005. Nuff said.

Lip

Lip

And I am sure you were touting that as a perfect team all season werent you?:wink:

-BBJ-

voodoochile
08-24-2009, 11:45 PM
I have a lot of respect for Jose and what he's done especially rushing to try and come back and help this year, but...he's done. I think it's really mental cuz he gets rattled so easily out there. It's sad to see this.

Yeah, he goes 0-2 on Youkilis and then plunks him. Then seems to lose it and goes 3-0 on Ortiz but manages to get the weakest grounder in the history of baseball that's headed right for Paulie who would field it standing on the bag while Papi jogs slowly down the line, but Jose freaks out, rushes and boots it and after that you could see it all coming.

It's sad. That ball goes for an out like it should have, the Sox probably win or at least stand a chance to win. Maybe Jose melts down again the next inning but damn... one freaking mental let down and WHAM!

Ugh... Go Angels and let's get 'em tomorrow. Hopefully the offense stays hot.

Lip Man 1
08-24-2009, 11:47 PM
Bad:

They led from wire to wire thank you. Stop trying to split hairs. I fully understand what your intention was with your comments.

Try commenting on Kenny trying to get a competent 5th starter for next year in what is expected to be a buyer's market and we'll continue this discussion.

Lip

tsoxman
08-24-2009, 11:47 PM
TSoxman:

As bad as it is, it could have been worse. Remember the original plan was for the last two spots to be filled "ably" I might add by Clayton Richard and Jeff Marquez!

:o:

Lip
It's awfully hard to roll the dice like that on two spots in the starting rotation...yes, everybody, I mean, some teams, have fifth starter issues but to call yourself a contender with two unstable rotation spots to start the season is ridiculuous.

Frankfan4life
08-24-2009, 11:49 PM
And at what point is the GM accountable?I don't think this is Kenny's fault. Time will tell but maybe he shouldn't have traded four pitchers for an injured Peavy (how's Richard doing btw?) but I think he's doing everything he can to make the Sox a contending team this year. Unfortunately, this team looks more like they're part of the "clunkers for cash" program.

I really think it's on the manager to make sure his team is playing fundamental baseball.

Noneck
08-24-2009, 11:51 PM
Lip is totally correct in the need for a reliable vet 5th starter next year. No matter what everyone hears from the Huckster on TV about how loaded the minors are with pitchers, I don't think there is much down there.

The Sox this year were one injury from Danks, Burls and Floyd, from competing with the Indians. If they had injuries to their starters like the cubs did, they would be competing with Nats record wise.

StillMissOzzie
08-24-2009, 11:51 PM
Don't you advocate trading our prospects or signing free agents to avoid unproven youth? They traded a whole bunch of pitching prospects to get Peavy and there is only one top pitching prospect left. It's tough to have it both ways.

I have no problems trading prospects for proven talent, it's just that in this particular trade, the Sox have gone close to a month without having EITHER. Maybe Peavy can help out if he's ready to go sometime soon and the rest of the team doesn't bury themselves, but DAMN, I am thinking that a few Clayton Richard starts would be looking a lot better than Grandpa Contreras out there on the bump.

After another bullpen-draining day, here's hoping Freddy realizes that it IS a big game tomorrow and can go 5-6 innings and keep the Sox in the game.

SMO
:gulp:

BadBobbyJenks
08-24-2009, 11:51 PM
Bad:

They led from wire to wire thank you. Stop trying to split hairs. I fully understand what your intention was with your comments.

Try commenting on Kenny trying to get a competent 5th starter for next year in what is expected to be a buyer's market and we'll continue this discussion.

Lip

They absolutely led from wire to wire, but I imagine you were hoping for a little more offense to be added weren't you? Sadly I did not find this place in 2005, so I cant be sure.

I dont know where I am splitting hairs. You want this team to be perfect and there is not a team in baseball does not have a need.

Edit:

-BBJ-

Lip Man 1
08-24-2009, 11:51 PM
TSox:

In fairness to Kenny and I stated this before. I think he was under orders not to do much because ownership was so concerned with the expiring advertising deals after this season. They were willing to partially risk the 2009 season for 2010.

Depending on what happens the final six weeks they may have bigger issues if another poor season aka 2007 cause more fans to not renew season tickets or buy individual game tickets added to the advertisers leaving.

We'll see. Experts are saying the economy is rebounding but until this off season nobody knows how it will play out.

Lip

Nelfox02
08-24-2009, 11:55 PM
I don't think this is Kenny's fault. Time will tell but maybe he shouldn't have traded four pitchers for an injured Peavy (how's Richard doing btw?) but I think he's doing everything he can to make the Sox a contending team this year. Unfortunately, this team looks more like they're part of the "clunkers for cash" program.

I really think it's on the manager to make sure his team is playing fundamental baseball.


absolutely why cant the younger guys on this team but? why are we so awful at moving runners over? why do we fall for plays like the double steal tonight? why is technique so poor on defense? why are bad mental errors happening both the outfield and infield every night

Ozzie is fond of calling out the team as a whole, or individual players in his post game rants, but look in the mirror at himself and take a hard look at the coaching staff

i am sick of this team playing such bad baseball all the time.....we lose a well played game, 3-2, fine I never like to lose, but as a fan of the game in general I can appreciate a well played game and tip the cap to the other team but the way the sox lose, tonight being a great example, it is just bad

every team has those blown/poorly played games, good teams maybe what, every month, every other month? chi sox? what, every week, every other day?

tsoxman
08-24-2009, 11:56 PM
TSox:

In fairness to Kenny and I stated this before. I think he was under orders not to do much because ownership was so concerned with the expiring advertising deals after this season. They were willing to partially risk the 2009 season for 2010.

Depending on what happens the final six weeks they may have bigger issues if another poor season aka 2007 cause more fans to not renew season tickets or buy individual game tickets added to the advertisers leaving.

We'll see. Experts are saying the economy is rebounding but until this off season nobody knows how it will play out.

Lip

I think you are right, but what happened between the last off season and recently for the club to commit so much money to two players?

DirtySox
08-24-2009, 11:58 PM
Lip is totally correct in the need for a reliable vet 5th starter next year. No matter what everyone hears from the Huckster on TV about how loaded the minors are with pitchers, I don't think there is much down there.

The Sox this year were one injury from Danks, Burls and Floyd, from competing with the Indians. If they had injuries to their starters like the cubs did, they would be competing with Nats record wise.

One should not take anything Hawk says about the minors at face value. He rarely even gets the names right when talking about our prospects.

There isn't much pitching talent left in the minors after the Peavy trade. (Not that there was alot before then) Hudson has turned into a legit top 50 prospect this year, but likely needs a bit more time. He might be called up at some point next year with a stopgap until then.

Lip Man 1
08-25-2009, 12:00 AM
TSox:

Again just my opinion but I think Kenny went to ownership and basically said what I just did...aka 'if you think we might have financial issues next season, wait till you see what happens if we tank 2009!' (paraphrasing)

Then he waited to see what they told him to do. Remember JR was directly quoted as saying that Kenny had to "convince him" to take on these deals.

Kenny is a sharp guy, I think he simply laid out the facts of how Sox fans would react to a second potential losing season in three years and made ownership understand the ramifications.

Lip

voodoochile
08-25-2009, 12:02 AM
I think you are right, but what happened between the last off season and recently for the club to commit so much money to two players?

I think they just figured they could at least keep the budget the same so they spent the expiring contract money they had early instead of waiting for the off season.

I am sure the extra $5M they took on in salary this year wasn't that big of a deal and they figured they would make it up if they made the playoffs, but mostly figured there would be a good amount of hype early for next years team and that would lead to additional ticket sales early on and a larger ticket base in general.

Kenny's not stupid. He knows he has opened a 3-4 year window for another World Series title.

In short, they couldn't risk adding $25M to the payroll last February, but could afford to take a risk on whatever Peavy and Rios added to the payroll over their time with the club this year and it would be a wash with the contracts of Contreras, Thome, Dotel and MacDougal coming off the books next year.

Domeshot17
08-25-2009, 12:07 AM
This falls on the pitching, entirely. The offense put up a lot of runs, more than enough to win. Jose Sucked, Carrasco Sucked, Williams did his job, Dotel sucked and Pena was fine.

Ultimately, it will be exciting in 2012 when the Sox STILL don't have a 5th starter, as we probably will be able to sign Jose Contreras (or claim off waivers) to try and fill the hole then.

The White Sox better thank the baseball Gods Detroit has not run away with this yet. However, 4 losses back heading in September isn't going to be easy. Especially since we have let Minnesota back into this thing.

Lip Man 1
08-25-2009, 12:08 AM
Voodoo:

Solid points and I think three of the four names you mentioned will be gone. But that may potentially open up another issue, one that Kenny will somehow have to address.

If say Dye and Thome leave, who plays in the middle of the order?

Doesn't he have to go out and try to solve that issue? And understand I think Thome and Dye have to probably go now, but replacing them is going to cost too.

Lip

Big D
08-25-2009, 12:09 AM
What a badass Papelbon is to be throwing at people. Must be nice as an AL closer to know you'll never have to go up to the plate yourself in your entire career.

Domeshot17
08-25-2009, 12:10 AM
Also, I think it is time to cut bait with Dye (well after the Season). While the Sox flounder away, Dye since the Break has hit 186 with an Ops under 600. Hopefully Ozzie drops him and moves up Quentin. We just can't have him struggling anymore.

The Immigrant
08-25-2009, 12:14 AM
We'll see. Experts are saying the economy is rebounding but until this off season nobody knows how it will play out.




Please give this tired lined a rest. The White Sox just took on $100 million in guaranteed money with the Peavy and Rios contracts. If the ownership was so concerned about the economy for 2009 and beyond, Williams never would have been given the green light to make those deals.

voodoochile
08-25-2009, 12:16 AM
Voodoo:

Solid points and I think three of the four names you mentioned will be gone. But that may potentially open up another issue, one that Kenny will somehow have to address.

If say Dye and Thome leave, who plays in the middle of the order?

Doesn't he have to go out and try to solve that issue? And understand I think Thome and Dye have to probably go now, but replacing them is going to cost too.

Lip

If Dye leaves they'd be able to make a run at Bay for example and move TCQ to RF, but I actually wouldn't mind seeing them try to acquire Dunn from the nationals for a LH bat. Of course that requires a trade to make happen.

Remember they hold an option on Dye for next year and if they can get Pods back at a reasonable price they could go with a rotation at DH giving Pods, PK, Dye and TCQ regular time off from a fielding position. I don't see them letting both Thome and Dye walk unless they have a plan to replace one of them - which is all they need to do, IMO.

Pods
Rios
Beckham
TCQ
DH - TBD
Konerko
AJ
Ramirez
Getz/Nix

That's a pretty solid lineup.

jonred
08-25-2009, 12:16 AM
For the crowd always posting "we should be running away with this division" every other day. the Sox have given 40% of their starts to either has-been pitchers that they hoped had some magic left, or young kids getting their feet wet. Given that fact on top of the hot-cold offense, it's amazing that they're anywhere near the top of the division.

Welcome to the magic that is the AL Central

jonred
08-25-2009, 12:20 AM
I don't think this is Kenny's fault. Time will tell but maybe he shouldn't have traded four pitchers for an injured Peavy (how's Richard doing btw?) but I think he's doing everything he can to make the Sox a contending team this year. Unfortunately, this team looks more like they're part of the "clunkers for cash" program.

I really think it's on the manager to make sure his team is playing fundamental baseball.

It's really not Ozzie's fault that Jose can't pitch anymore. They never should have relied on washed up re-treds like Jose, Colon and now Garcia. Bring up a prospect and let's see what they can do.

Frankfan4life
08-25-2009, 12:21 AM
absolutely why cant the younger guys on this team but? why are we so awful at moving runners over? why do we fall for plays like the double steal tonight? why is technique so poor on defense? why are bad mental errors happening both the outfield and infield every night

Ozzie is fond of calling out the team as a whole, or individual players in his post game rants, but look in the mirror at himself and take a hard look at the coaching staff

i am sick of this team playing such bad baseball all the time.....we lose a well played game, 3-2, fine I never like to lose, but as a fan of the game in general I can appreciate a well played game and tip the cap to the other team but the way the sox lose, tonight being a great example, it is just bad

every team has those blown/poorly played games, good teams maybe what, every month, every other month? chi sox? what, every week, every other day?That about sums it up for me.

gobears1987
08-25-2009, 12:22 AM
The Sox have been making me depressed lately :(:

At least I found a pie downstairs that was left over from dinner. That helps with the pain.

GoGoCrede
08-25-2009, 12:24 AM
Tonight's game actually made me want to turn it off and do homework. And believe me, in the past I've always chosen a Sox game over homework. :mad:

chisoxfanatic
08-25-2009, 12:25 AM
What a badass Papelbon is to be throwing at people. Must be nice as an AL closer to know you'll never have to go up to the plate yourself in your entire career.
I'd personally like for TCQ to aim for his head when up to bat.

whitesoxfan
08-25-2009, 12:28 AM
Also, I think it is time to cut bait with Dye (well after the Season). While the Sox flounder away, Dye since the Break has hit 186 with an Ops under 600. Hopefully Ozzie drops him and moves up Quentin. We just can't have him struggling anymore.

I talked about that in the game thread. I was firmly in the 'keep Dye' camp, but I've shifted opinions. His second half struggles are becoming too problematic for us when we're involved in close races like these.

At least when Thome's struggling, he still gets on base at a great rate. Dye presses far too often when he's having problems and as a result, has bad plate appearances.

kittle42
08-25-2009, 12:32 AM
I'd personally like for TCQ to aim for his head when up to bat.

That would require him to hit the ball.

GoGoCrede
08-25-2009, 12:33 AM
That was hilarious and maddening and depressing and flat out bad.

Ugh. long night.

That's what she said!

:redneck

Sorry, had to lighten the mood a bit...

gobears1987
08-25-2009, 12:35 AM
Tonight's game actually made me want to turn it off and do homework. And believe me, in the past I've always chosen a Sox game over homework. :mad:
That is pretty bad. I'm just glad I don't have TV yet so I am spared the pain of watching it live.

At least I had beer.

shingo10
08-25-2009, 12:47 AM
I'll just throw this out there because it appears Jose is done as a starter. As bad as he's been these past couple seasons, he'll still always have a special place in White Sox history.

His streak at the end of 05 and beginning of 06 was magical. For that thank you Jose. Now kindly step aside and let someone else ptich.

pudge
08-25-2009, 01:38 AM
TSox:

In fairness to Kenny and I stated this before. I think he was under orders not to do much because ownership was so concerned with the expiring advertising deals after this season. They were willing to partially risk the 2009 season for 2010.

Depending on what happens the final six weeks they may have bigger issues if another poor season aka 2007 cause more fans to not renew season tickets or buy individual game tickets added to the advertisers leaving.

We'll see. Experts are saying the economy is rebounding but until this off season nobody knows how it will play out.

Lip

Lip, was there someone you had in mind for '09? I recall a hot debate in spring of '03 for those who said we needed Kenny Rogers and those who said we didn't. As it turned out, the 5th spot was a *nightmare* the likes of which had never been seen, and it would have been a certainty that adding Kenny Rogers to the '03 rotation would have put the Sox in the playoffs. But i don't recall a similar option for this year. Jose showed some spark this year, which I think complicated things with KW believing he could get the job done. Plus we had no idea we'd be getting Peavy and leaving another hole in the rotation. I just can't get too upset about this season when you consider the players have failed miserably, and the Peavy deal was clearly with the goal of winning a title in '10 or '11.

hawkjt
08-25-2009, 01:39 AM
I talked about that in the game thread. I was firmly in the 'keep Dye' camp, but I've shifted opinions. His second half struggles are becoming too problematic for us when we're involved in close races like these.

At least when Thome's struggling, he still gets on base at a great rate. Dye presses far too often when he's having problems and as a result, has bad plate appearances.


The trick is to make sure JD is done,or just in a real funk. I suspect he is nearing the end, but you never know. So I agree, I hope ozzie drops him in the order, and plays Alex Rios in right until he comes back..if he does not, then he has to be let go. I like him,but it happens to all of them,just like Jose.

palehozenychicty
08-25-2009, 10:01 AM
The trick is to make sure JD is done,or just in a real funk. I suspect he is nearing the end, but you never know. So I agree, I hope ozzie drops him in the order, and plays Alex Rios in right until he comes back..if he does not, then he has to be let go. I like him,but it happens to all of them,just like Jose.

He's either done or just playing hurt. We don't really know, but I don't remember him struggling this badly for an entire half. I think he's the biggest question mark in the offseason, and I love the guy.

Lip Man 1
08-25-2009, 12:37 PM
Pudge:

The Rogers situation (good call by the way) was decided over a million dollars. Kenny offered one, Minnesota two...Rogers signed with them.

In 2003 Sox 5th starters went 3-11 in 27 starts.

Kenny was in a tough spot. I refuse to believe that he honestly thought the folks he assembled to start the year were good enough to win anything, even the weakest division in baseball...there had to be something else going on.

Even Ozzie again today in the Sun-Times to Joe Cowley talked about the lack of talent on the club to start the year and listed a half dozen names. (You got the sense that Ozzie was saying they shouldn't have been on the team in the first place...)

I didn't have a specific pitcher in mind, I didn't know who might be available but the fact that the Sox were deciding between Clayton Richard, Jeff Marquez, an injured Jose Contreras and an injured Bartolo Colon certainly made a lot of fans nervous.

The Sox reversed course in midseason I think because of the things Kenny was warning about and a better than expected response by fans who started coming out in good numbers after the weather finally got a little better, but to me the possible future economic situation dictated the Sox moves this off season.

I'm glad Kenny did what he did, they have a very solid core for 2010, with some tweeking they could be very, very good.

Lip

Lip Man 1
08-25-2009, 12:41 PM
Immigrant:

In that particular post I wasn't talking about Sox ownership. I was referring to the fans making a decision to renew season tickets or purchase individual tickets given how the team may finish with another losing record and the economic situation at the time this off season.

Sorry for the confusion.

Lip

soltrain21
08-25-2009, 01:13 PM
I'd personally like for TCQ to aim for his head when up to bat.

Yeah - I totally want to see someone get potentially killed, too.

thomas35forever
08-25-2009, 05:36 PM
Contreras' error was just named a jeer on SportsNation.

SOXSINCE'70
08-25-2009, 06:39 PM
Now THAT'S the Jose Contreras we've all come to know, love and respect!

It's embarrassing that the organization has no other options.

Lip

A friend and I have discussed putting Contreras on the 60 day DL retroactive to "Eternity". And no, i'm not joking.:angry:

Boondock Saint
08-25-2009, 06:56 PM
A friend and I have discussed putting Contreras on the 60 day DL retroactive to "Eternity". And no, i'm not joking.:angry:

...so you want him to not be on the DL? :scratch:

soltrain21
08-25-2009, 07:49 PM
A friend and I have discussed putting Contreras on the 60 day DL retroactive to "Eternity". And no, i'm not joking.:angry:


That isn't what retroactive means.

hi im skot
08-25-2009, 08:16 PM
Contreras' error was just named a jeer on SportsNation.

What is a Sportsnation?

thomas35forever
08-25-2009, 10:14 PM
What is a Sportsnation?
New show on ESPN2.