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View Full Version : Who's afraid of the big bad bullpen?


Waysouthsider
08-17-2009, 11:27 PM
Me...for one....what the ___________? Jenks is aging me by the day, Linebrink is terrifying, and Dotel has been rough too.....

The pen has been so hot all season, what gives?

:o::o::o::o::o::o::o::o::o:

Harry Potter
08-17-2009, 11:38 PM
Me...for one....what the ___________? Jenks is aging me by the day, Linebrink is terrifying, and Dotel has been rough too.....

The pen has been so hot all season, what gives?

:o::o::o::o::o::o::o::o::o:

Seeing how the pitching has had to work overtime to keep us in many games this year when our anemic offense was sputtering along, you had to expect a relapse eventually.

gosox41
08-17-2009, 11:58 PM
Me...for one....what the ___________? Jenks is aging me by the day, Linebrink is terrifying, and Dotel has been rough too.....

The pen has been so hot all season, what gives?

:o::o::o::o::o::o::o::o::o:

I'd like to think it's just a slump, then I see Linebrink go out there and give up 3 runs with 2 outs.

I'd like to see Pena get more of a shot in late inning close games. Use Linebrink earlier until he figures it out.


Bob

Dibbs
08-18-2009, 12:05 AM
Carrasco and Thornton are good.

Lip Man 1
08-18-2009, 12:07 AM
It's called overuse.

Lip

jdm2662
08-18-2009, 09:38 AM
Bullpen pitchers are a dime a dozen. The best bullpens are the ones that are not used often (see 2005 Sox).

beasly213
08-18-2009, 10:07 AM
Overuse is true, what sucks is they won't get a break the next two games with Garcia and Jose pitching... :whiner:

KempersRS
08-18-2009, 10:08 AM
It's called overuse.

Lip

If there is any data that actually supports this theory, I'd like to see it.

A few people are having career years. A few people are having average years, and a few people are having below average years. It's just the law of averages. Overall the pen is still ranked in the top half of the league.

mcfish
08-18-2009, 10:23 AM
Overuse my ass. The Sox are 3rd in the league in IP for starters and 26th in the league in IP for relievers. White Sox bullpen overuse is one of the biggest myths widely believed around here.


IP as Starter (http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/split/127/sort/thirdInnings/order/true)

IP as Reliever (http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/split/128/sort/thirdInnings/order/true)

Total IP (http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/sort/thirdInnings/order/true)

Chez
08-18-2009, 10:44 AM
Either Dotel or Linebrink need to return to form -- don't need both (though both would be nice). Very tough to win down the stretch with only one reliable set-up man. Thornton will burn out.

mzh
08-18-2009, 11:17 AM
Bullpen pitchers are a dime a dozen. The best bullpens are the ones that are not used often (see 2005 Sox).

On the contrary, in 2005, Neal Cotts was thrown 69 times with a 1.94 E.R.A, and Cliff Politte had and E.R.A. of 2.00 in 68 appearances.

chisox12
08-18-2009, 11:42 AM
I'd like to think it's just a slump, then I see Linebrink go out there and give up 3 runs with 2 outs.

I'd like to see Pena get more of a shot in late inning close games. Use Linebrink earlier until he figures it out.


Bob


I dont know what is scarier. Linebrink or Pena in late inning close games??

october23sp
08-18-2009, 11:49 AM
Meh... It's the bullpen. If some of those guys were great great pitchers they wouldn't be in the bullpen. Thornton is good.

Edit: DJ is also good. Bobby has to not **** his pants every now and then. When Bobby is good he's really good but when he's off he is my least favorite player on the roster.

russ99
08-18-2009, 11:50 AM
Overuse my ass. The Sox are 3rd in the league in IP for starters and 26th in the league in IP for relievers. White Sox bullpen overuse is one of the biggest myths widely believed around here.


IP as Starter (http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/split/127/sort/thirdInnings/order/true)

IP as Reliever (http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/split/128/sort/thirdInnings/order/true)

Total IP (http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/sort/thirdInnings/order/true)

Reliever IP is only part of the picture.

How often a reliever is used, how often they have to warm up and also long times without use affects how they perform.

Despite the relatively low reliever IP, Ozzie's gone to the well a lot. I'd bet the Sox games pitched by relievers is close to the top of the league.

How many times do we see multiple relievers per inning? That shouldn't happen as often as it does around here. Maybe something as simple as primarily starting an inning with a reliever, instead of having to clean up another pitcher's mess could result in some improvement.

bigdommer
08-18-2009, 12:15 PM
Recipe for a dominant bullpen: career year for a journeyman (Polite, Cotts), bounceback year for a veteran (Hermanson), "announce my presence with authority" year for a rookie (Jenks), and everyone else has to be average or better. You could throw that every day or once a week and it wouldn't matter.

soxyess
08-18-2009, 12:16 PM
I think Nunez is being groomed as a set up man or closer. Next year Jenks will be gone. His fastball is beginning to flatten out.

Lip Man 1
08-18-2009, 12:16 PM
Russ:

Stated EXACTLY correct.

There are a number of times when Ozzie will pull Thornton, for example, just because a right hand hitter is coming up.

Now you've used two pitchers when you don't have to.

This is simply an example... you can substitute any name you wish. Ozzie believes in his "matchup's" aka Tony LaRussa. I believe that a pitcher should be able to get ANYBODY out regardless of what side they hit from.

It adds up using four / five pitchers a game when you can probably get by with two or three. Not saying there aren't times in a close game when you have to do this but there are many times with the game in hand either way, Ozzie is out there making needless changes.

Lip

35th and Shields
08-18-2009, 12:25 PM
I think Nunez is being groomed as a set up man or closer. Next year Jenks will be gone. His fastball is beginning to flatten out.

Who do you want left on the team? Everyday I see a few of your posts saying you want Paulie, Dye, Thome (and others I'm sure) all gone and now Jenks too?

Maybe they don't keep Jenks around but to think they would flat out replace him with Nunez is just not going to happen.

ChicagoHoosier
08-18-2009, 12:26 PM
I'm still looking for the statistic, and unable to find it, to show wins when losing after 6 and losses when winning after 6. Not that the bullpen always contributes to the losses, but it seems we've ended up in the negative column for that stat.

Would anyone know where to get that? I checked a few sites (Baseball Reference and others) and can't get to it.

Linebrink continues to scare me. Does Ozzie not see a solution?

mcfish
08-18-2009, 12:27 PM
Russ:

Stated EXACTLY correct.

There are a number of times when Ozzie will pull Thornton, for example, just because a right hand hitter is coming up.

Now you've used two pitchers when you don't have to.

This is simply an example... you can substitute any name you wish. Ozzie believes in his "matchup's" aka Tony LaRussa. I believe that a pitcher should be able to get ANYBODY out regardless of what side they hit from.

It adds up using four / five pitchers a game when you can probably get by with two or three. Not saying there aren't times in a close game when you have to do this but there are many times with the game in hand either way, Ozzie is out there making needless changes.

LipI was just looking and russ99 is correct: the Sox are 8th in MLB in appearances by relievers (http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/pitching/split/128/sort/gamesPlayed/order/true), despite being 26th in IP by relievers.

I wouldn't say that makes them overworked, but your counterpoint suggests they certainly aren't underworked. I certainly agree with Lip's point also. I rarely understand the constant changing of pitchers.

october23sp
08-18-2009, 12:29 PM
Recipe for a dominant bullpen: career year for a journeyman (Polite, Cotts), bounceback year for a veteran (Hermanson), "announce my presence with authority" year for a rookie (Jenks), and everyone else has to be average or better. You could throw that every day or once a week and it wouldn't matter.

Starters throw 4 complete games in a row in the ALCS. :tongue:

soxyess
08-18-2009, 12:51 PM
Who do you want left on the team? Everyday I see a few of your posts saying you want Paulie, Dye, Thome (and others I'm sure) all gone and now Jenks too?

Maybe they don't keep Jenks around but to think they would flat out replace him with Nunez is just not going to happen.

I want to gut this team of the "softball players" (Dye, PK, Thome) that have hurt us this year and will continue to hurt us if they are retained. They are old and getting older and slower. I want this team built arount line drive hitters with speed, and good situational hitters. These will come from our system, free agency, and trades. Jenks will get moved, and Thorton will be your closer, and Nunez will be in the pen. KW will find another lefty settup, but dont discount Nunez as a closer. He has the stuff, and everyone thought Ozzie was nuts when Jenks was first made a closer in 05, what happened then. Closing is a mindset. If you have good stuff you can close if you have the mind for it.

KempersRS
08-18-2009, 12:58 PM
Russ:

Stated EXACTLY correct.

There are a number of times when Ozzie will pull Thornton, for example, just because a right hand hitter is coming up.

Now you've used two pitchers when you don't have to.

This is simply an example... you can substitute any name you wish. Ozzie believes in his "matchup's" aka Tony LaRussa. I believe that a pitcher should be able to get ANYBODY out regardless of what side they hit from.

It adds up using four / five pitchers a game when you can probably get by with two or three. Not saying there aren't times in a close game when you have to do this but there are many times with the game in hand either way, Ozzie is out there making needless changes.

Lip

Again, there is zero evidence to support your claim the bullpen is overworked.

In fact, the bullpen in August has a 2.69 ERA for the month. That is far better than the bullpen ERA from previous months of the year. And that even includes Linebrink's poor performance last night.

hawkjt
08-18-2009, 01:09 PM
I want to gut this team of the "softball players" (Dye, PK, Thome) that have hurt us this year and will continue to hurt us if they are retained. They are old and getting older and slower. I want this team built arount line drive hitters with speed, and good situational hitters. These will come from our system, free agency, and trades. Jenks will get moved, and Thorton will be your closer, and Nunez will be in the pen. KW will find another lefty settup, but dont discount Nunez as a closer. He has the stuff, and everyone thought Ozzie was nuts when Jenks was first made a closer in 05, what happened then. Closing is a mindset. If you have good stuff you can close if you have the mind for it.

PK and likely Dye will be here next year. Brace yourself. The transition to a line drive team in a home run home park is not going to happen overnite nor should it. We need to know we have Flowers,Viciedo, and other power players ready to take the DH and first base positions before we bail on our older power hitters. I am disapointed in PK and JD this second half so far,but JD is coming out of it the last 4 games and PK will also.
Thome...gone. Jenks? Still here.
Your rush to transform this winning team is foolish.

doublem23
08-18-2009, 01:12 PM
I want to gut this team of the "softball players" (Dye, PK, Thome) that have hurt us this year and will continue to hurt us if they are retained. They are old and getting older and slower. I want this team built arount line drive hitters with speed, and good situational hitters. These will come from our system, free agency, and trades. Jenks will get moved, and Thorton will be your closer, and Nunez will be in the pen. KW will find another lefty settup, but dont discount Nunez as a closer. He has the stuff, and everyone thought Ozzie was nuts when Jenks was first made a closer in 05, what happened then. Closing is a mindset. If you have good stuff you can close if you have the mind for it.

Your ridiculous hatred of PK, Thome, and Dye is already well known, but just for kicks, some stats.

Konerko - .272/.340/.475, .814 OPS, 107 OPS+
Dye - .277/.357/.505, .862 OPS, 119 OPS+
Thome - .250/.380/.503, .884 OPS, 125 OPS+

Yeah, these guys are killing us.

35th and Shields
08-18-2009, 01:19 PM
I want to gut this team of the "softball players" (Dye, PK, Thome) that have hurt us this year and will continue to hurt us if they are retained. They are old and getting older and slower. I want this team built arount line drive hitters with speed, and good situational hitters. These will come from our system, free agency, and trades. Jenks will get moved, and Thorton will be your closer, and Nunez will be in the pen. KW will find another lefty settup, but dont discount Nunez as a closer. He has the stuff, and everyone thought Ozzie was nuts when Jenks was first made a closer in 05, what happened then. Closing is a mindset. If you have good stuff you can close if you have the mind for it.

No doubt Nunez has the stuff to be an effective pitcher and I think he will be but I'll take Bobby over a guy in AAA.

Are you expecting us to be competitive next year? Get rid of Konerko, Dye, Thome and Jenks by next year? I'm curious as to see what prospects you think we have ready to replicate these kind of numbers.

Hartman
08-18-2009, 01:51 PM
Something needs to be done about Linebrink. He has pitched consistently terrible for the past several months; I don't call it a slump. Unfortunately, acquiring Linebrink was one of Kenny's not-so-stellar moves, so we're stuck with him and his bloated contract.

It's clear that Jenks has lost something, both mentally and physically. I just hope that he finishes the season strong so teams will be interested in the offseason.

oeo
08-18-2009, 02:04 PM
Either Dotel or Linebrink need to return to form -- don't need both (though both would be nice). Very tough to win down the stretch with only one reliable set-up man. Thornton will burn out.

Dotel is just extremely inconsistent. He could come out one day, throw two innings, strike out all six and look untouchable. The very next day he could go zero innings and give up three homeruns.

I trust Dotel to get the job done down the stretch, however. Linebrink just looks like ****, and he has for a long time now.

Jim Shorts
08-18-2009, 02:08 PM
Who do you want left on the team? Everyday I see a few of your posts saying you want Paulie, Dye, Thome (and others I'm sure) all gone and now Jenks too?


And who would manage? He hates Ozzie too.

kittle42
08-18-2009, 02:55 PM
The problem with bullpens is that most of the guys just aren't that good, in all bullpens.

2005 (2005!) was awesome because Politte, Cotts, and everyone we had at closer was stellar. That is unusual.

I roll my eyes every time someone starts hemming and hawing because the guy trotting out of the bullpen door isn't Thornton. He can't pitch 150+ games, you know. You have to live and die with the rest of them. And Thornton is far from perfect, despite having a great year.

soxyess
08-18-2009, 02:56 PM
And who would manage? He hates Ozzie too.


What are you talking about I think Ozzie is one of the best managers in the majors, and im serious!

35th and Shields
08-18-2009, 03:04 PM
What are you talking about I think Ozzie is one of the best managers in the majors, and im serious!

Just out of curiosity soxyess, since you expect most of our softball players to be gone next year, who is replacing them?

soxyess
08-18-2009, 03:40 PM
Just out of curiosity soxyess, since you expect most of our softball players to be gone next year, who is replacing them?

I think thats a fair question. KW will go after players via the trade market. I think that he is going to make a serious play for Carl Crawford. I have read lately that Tampa will make him available, and we have the prospects to make it happen. I wouldnt be surprised to see KW go after Figgins. Keep in mind that KW most likely has his eye on a few players to replace the aging softball players. There will be a strong mix of young, and veterans who are still in their prime (see Rios). I want you to understand that I have enjoyed and appreciate everything that Dye Thome and PK have done for this organization, I just think that they are dangerously past their prime, and keeping them would just keep us stuck in mediocrity.

bacon
08-18-2009, 04:02 PM
Something needs to be done about Linebrink. He has pitched consistently terrible for the past several months; I don't call it a slump. Unfortunately, acquiring Linebrink was one of Kenny's not-so-stellar moves, so we're stuck with him and his bloated contract.

It's clear that Jenks has lost something, both mentally and physically. I just hope that he finishes the season strong so teams will be interested in the offseason.

it seems like everytime linebrink enters a close game we lose.

Lip Man 1
08-18-2009, 04:37 PM
Kemper:

Read MCFish's post. There's your "proof". Everytime a pitcher comes in even if he only faces one batter he has to warm up. Those add up over the course of a season. In fact there are some clubs who have taken the "pitch count" nonsense to the extreme and also count warm-up's tosses! :o:

And for what it's worth both Donn Pall and Jack McDowell in their interviews made the point about rather having a bullpen that's underworked as opposed to overworked as well as talking about warm up pitches.

Lip

Domeshot17
08-18-2009, 05:13 PM
It has less to do with workload and more to do with Talent. Linebrink is not throwing 90 mph fastballs right down the middle because hes a little tired. He is throwing it because he doesn't have any other pitch to throw right now.

Pena also is not tired, just is not a very good pitcher.

Whitesoxfan23
08-18-2009, 05:21 PM
It has less to do with workload and more to do with Talent. Linebrink is not throwing 90 mph fastballs right down the middle because hes a little tired. He is throwing it because he doesn't have any other pitch to throw right now.

Pena also is not tired, just is not a very good pitcher.


Then why did we give up a pretty good prospect for Pena?

KempersRS
08-18-2009, 05:56 PM
Kemper:

Read MCFish's post. There's your "proof". Everytime a pitcher comes in even if he only faces one batter he has to warm up. Those add up over the course of a season. In fact there are some clubs who have taken the "pitch count" nonsense to the extreme and also count warm-up's tosses! :o:

And for what it's worth both Donn Pall and Jack McDowell in their interviews made the point about rather having a bullpen that's underworked as opposed to overworked as well as talking about warm up pitches.

Lip

How can they be "overworked" if they are more effective lately than they were earlier in the season? Aren't they getting the right amount of work if they aren't tired and aren't getting injured? I don't care if they have all pitched in 40 straight games, if they are pitching well and are all healthy, I don't understand how they can be considered overworked.

Thornton is constantly warming up and being brought in. He has thrown 9 innings this month with zero earned runs. He's obviously doing just fine with the way he is being handled.

The whole point of the thread was to bitch about the bullpen sucking lately, when that is just not true. People just get overly dramatic because we lost in walk off fashion a couple times. Guess what, if the offense scores a run in 14 innings against the Mariners, then all of the sudden that game makes our bullpen look amazing. And you know what, the pen WAS good in that game, but they are going to give up a few runs here or there. That was just unfortunate circumstances for the pen, so now we are going to act like they are faltering.

Again, the numbers don't lie. The bullpen performance has been BETTER in August than the rest of the season. There is no logic in saying they are slipping or being overworked.

bacon
08-18-2009, 07:11 PM
How can they be "overworked" if they are more effective lately than they were earlier in the season? Aren't they getting the right amount of work if they aren't tired and aren't getting injured? I don't care if they have all pitched in 40 straight games, if they are pitching well and are all healthy, I don't understand how they can be considered overworked.

Thornton is constantly warming up and being brought in. He has thrown 9 innings this month with zero earned runs. He's obviously doing just fine with the way he is being handled.

The whole point of the thread was to bitch about the bullpen sucking lately, when that is just not true. People just get overly dramatic because we lost in walk off fashion a couple times. Guess what, if the offense scores a run in 14 innings against the Mariners, then all of the sudden that game makes our bullpen look amazing. And you know what, the pen WAS good in that game, but they are going to give up a few runs here or there. That was just unfortunate circumstances for the pen, so now we are going to act like they are faltering.

Again, the numbers don't lie. The bullpen performance has been BETTER in August than the rest of the season. There is no logic in saying they are slipping or being overworked.

but linebrink does suck......

Tragg
08-18-2009, 07:18 PM
Something needs to be done about Linebrink. He has pitched consistently terrible for the past several months; I don't call it a slump. Unfortunately, acquiring Linebrink was one of Kenny's not-so-stellar moves, so we're stuck with him and his bloated contract.

It's $4 mill for 2 more years. 4% of our payroll. We don't HAVE to use him. We didn't give up talent for him. I just don't see it as some huge anchor on the team or the staff.

Frater Perdurabo
08-18-2009, 08:44 PM
Your ridiculous hatred of PK, Thome, and Dye is already well known, but just for kicks, some stats.

Konerko - .272/.340/.475, .814 OPS, 107 OPS+
Dye - .277/.357/.505, .862 OPS, 119 OPS+
Thome - .250/.380/.503, .884 OPS, 125 OPS+

Yeah, these guys are killing us.

Paulie (.183) and Dye (.204) have been horrible during the second half.