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View Full Version : Looking back on Vazquez trade, good or bad?


1989
08-16-2009, 10:42 PM
Okay now before I get bombarded here, let me say that I was one of those guys that wanted Javy to be shown the door after his three year stint with us from 06-08.

He had the reputation of being a mental midget, folded under pressure, and could never win the big game. We all remember when Ozzie called him out before game 1 of the metrodome series last year in August then blew up, stunk it up his next start against the Wahoo's, and threw batting practice to Tampa Bay in the playoffs. All crucial starts down the stretch. We also all remember how he did his "Zack Greinke" impression in 2007, a year where we 18 under .500.

But look at his stats now. They are unreal. He is eating up innings as usual with 155 so far. And his strikeout to walk ratio is off the charts at 5.34 K/BB. 2.90 ERA, 1.034 WHIP. I know, I know, NL, pitcher bats. But it isn't like the Braves aren't contending for a playoff spot this year. The Braves are only 3.0 out, as of tonight's game, from the wildcard spot.

He would be a huge asset to this team as the #4 and #5 starters have struggled immensely. I think it was Patrick who mentioned that we are 11 games under .500 in games that Contreras and Colon have started. 11 games!!

Now the main piece we got back in Tyler Flowers is performing quite nicely in the minors this year OPSing around .900 between Charlotte and B-Ham combined. He even has earned Top Defensive Catcher of the Southern League this year. Despite those accolades, many think that his defense won't be enough to stick at catcher and that his offense may not be enough for 1st base. You'll get a lot of varying opinions on this kid

Considering all of this, I am starting to rethink this trade even though I wanted Javy gone in Mid-October last year. Given the opportunity, I would gladly welcome a "trade back" with the Braves, even though it is far too early to decide who won the trade overall. I can't help but think that with Javy on this team, the Sox would be well on their way to 90 wins. And with a rotation of Buehrle, Danks, Floyd, Peavy, and Javy down the stretch, we would with almost certainty make the playoffs.

So I ask to all you WSIers out there, are any of you changing your stance on trade? Am I just crazy for wanting him back? Probably.

JB98
08-16-2009, 10:47 PM
If Vazquez were still here, the Peavy trade would not have been made.

I was never a Javy fan.

Lip Man 1
08-16-2009, 10:50 PM
Very hard to say. Certainly his 200 innings and 13-15 wins would be gladly welcomed but he did have some failings in crunch time.

What I think should be discussed is how "little" Kenny got back for a pitcher who gives you 200+ innings and 13-15 wins per year. Maybe it was the "market" but considering how valuable pitching is, the fact that the Sox got Brent Lillibridge (a waste) and Flowers, a prospect who may or may not make it in the major leagues, seems to me to not be enough.

I think that's more the question here.

Lip

Zisk77
08-16-2009, 10:52 PM
If we still had Javy then we probably do not have the money to obtain both Peavy & Rios. Javy wore out his welcome here. There is no point playing the "what if" game. Tyler Flowers looks to be a great acquisition no matter where he plays.

Zisk77
08-16-2009, 10:53 PM
Very hard to say. Certainly his 200 innings and 13-15 wins would be gladly welcomed but he did have some failings in crunch time.

What I think should be discussed is how "little" Kenny got back for a pitcher who gives you 200+ innings and 13-15 wins per year. Maybe it was the "market" but considering how valuable pitching is, the fact that the Sox got Brent Lillibridge (a waste) and Flowers, a prospect who may or may not make it in the major leagues, seems to me to not be enough.

I think that's more the question here.

Lip

We also got a sandwich pick 3b that may develop. I think we got a ton for a career .500 pitcher with issues.

mantis1212
08-16-2009, 10:56 PM
The Braves are relatively close in their race- let's see how Javy does down the stretch for them- that seemed to be his problem here.

1989
08-16-2009, 10:57 PM
We also got a sandwich pick 3b that may develop. I think we got a ton for a career .500 pitcher with issues.

Who is this?

soxfanreggie
08-16-2009, 10:59 PM
He wasn't able to come through in the clutch, and he was probably going to be too expensive for a 5th starter anyway. I think people are right in saying if he was here that we wouldn't have Peavy and/or Rios.

JB98
08-16-2009, 10:59 PM
The Braves are relatively close in their race- let's see how Javy does down the stretch for them- that seemed to be his problem here.

Even if he does well, I'm not going to regret the trade. Vazquez was 38-36 with a mid-4s ERA in three years with the Sox. He was a league-average starter in the American League. Getting rid of his salary helped the Sox make the midseason pickups they've made this year.

CWSpalehoseCWS
08-16-2009, 11:01 PM
I say it was good. At the time we needed him and it just didn't work out as planned. It's not like Chris Young is any good as he's in AAA, and he did get us Flowers, who I believe will be very good in the upcoming years.

Noneck
08-16-2009, 11:02 PM
The Javy move was as we all know, a cost containment move. The argument here is always that he was being paid as a #2 and would actually have been either a #4 or #5. Would he have been better than this years 4 or 5? Definitely. Would he have been overpaid? Probably. Does winning a division and possible moving on in the playoffs compensate the club for him being overpaid? I think so.

gobears1987
08-16-2009, 11:05 PM
If Javy was facing American League lineups and playing for a team that was in a playoff race, he would ****ing suck. He was gutless last year and went win less down the stretch. Javy could win 20 games in the National League and I would still stand by my statements made last September when I said the "Beach Boy" should return to his beach and never wear a Sox uniform again.

voodoochile
08-16-2009, 11:06 PM
I'm happy with Peavy and Flowers.

Britt Burns
08-16-2009, 11:10 PM
Who is this?

Jon Gilmore. He's having a lousy season at Kanny, but could still develop into something. We also got a lefty reliever who is in Bristol or GFalls, can't remember which off the top of my head.

UChicagoHP
08-16-2009, 11:28 PM
You want him on your team from April till June...

You want nothing to do with him when the pressure gets turned up a notch.

Guy is a choker, always has been, always will be...

There are very few players who OBVIOUSLY lack the sack for playoff baseball, but Javy stands proud among that group

jabrch
08-16-2009, 11:32 PM
You want him on your team from April till June...

You want nothing to do with him when the pressure gets turned up a notch.


This is purely a WSI myth that basic evaluation shows to be false.

WhiteSox1989
08-16-2009, 11:35 PM
I'm happy with Peavy and Flowers.
I agree with this. When the trade initially happened I wasn't too happy about it, because there were so many rotation spots to fill.

If we had kept Javy there is no way KW would/could have traded for Peavy. And I will take Peavy over Javy any day.

UChicagoHP
08-16-2009, 11:36 PM
This is far from a myth, and I'm not going to waste time pointing that out. But I will say he was excellent down the stretch for Chicago last season, lights out...

gobears1987
08-16-2009, 11:36 PM
Not only am I happier with Peavy, but I like the idea of a highly paid pitcher wanting to play in big games and succeed. I don't like pitchers who would rather play in games that don't matter and then talk about how he doesn't care about making the playoffs because he can relax on his beach.

gobears1987
08-16-2009, 11:37 PM
This is far from a myth, and I'm not going to waste time pointing that out. But I will say he was excellent down the stretch for Chicago last season, lights out...
:tealpolice:


You're under arrest for failure to teal.

jabrch
08-16-2009, 11:43 PM
This is far from a myth, and I'm not going to waste time pointing that out. But I will say he was excellent down the stretch for Chicago last season, lights out...

Look at what he did last August and Sept. 37 runs in 12 starts.

Complete and total myth.

DaveFeelsRight
08-16-2009, 11:44 PM
I'm happy with Peavy and Flowers.ditto.

1989
08-16-2009, 11:48 PM
Not only am I happier with Peavy, but I like the idea of a highly paid pitcher wanting to play in big games and succeed. I don't like pitchers who would rather play in games that don't matter and then talk about how he doesn't care about making the playoffs because he can relax on his beach.

I love Peavy. I really really do. But check his record in playoff games before you anoint him the White Sox version of Josh Beckett in the postseason.

gobears1987
08-16-2009, 11:52 PM
I love Peavy. I really really do. But check his record in playoff games before you anoint him the White Sox version of Josh Beckett in the postseason.
At least he wants to be in the playoffs so that puts him 1 level above Beach Boy.

hawkjt
08-16-2009, 11:57 PM
Sorry, no sell. The NL is just flat full of weak sisters. Even the bad teams mash in the AL. Plus there is the first time around the league syndrome...most of these teams have not seen him much.

The AL is a much more patient hitting league,it seems to me...and that means that all that nibbling that Javy did just piled up balls in the AL,while in the NL they swing at his close pitches and strike out a lot.

I do think Javy probably benefitted from moving to a new team also..bridges were burnt here.

LoveYourSuit
08-17-2009, 12:06 AM
Not only am I happier with Peavy, but I like the idea of a highly paid pitcher wanting to play in big games and succeed. I don't like pitchers who would rather play in games that don't matter and then talk about how he doesn't care about making the playoffs because he can relax on his beach.



You have mentioned the same pile of **** and stupidty on 2 threads now.

Show me the quote / article you read this nonesense at?

Please, show me :scratch:

You think any team would have traded for him had this been true?


Looking forward to your response.

Noneck
08-17-2009, 12:09 AM
Sorry, no sell. The NL is just flat full of weak sisters. Even the bad teams mash in the AL. Plus there is the first time around the league syndrome...most of these teams have not seen him much.

The AL is a much more patient hitting league,it seems to me...and that means that all that nibbling that Javy did just piled up balls in the AL,while in the NL they swing at his close pitches and strike out a lot.

I do think Javy probably benefitted from moving to a new team also..bridges were burnt here.

Your comments may make one nervous about the coming of Jacob Edward Peavy.

gobears1987
08-17-2009, 12:11 AM
You have mentioned the same pile of **** and stupidty on 2 threads now.

Show me the quote / article you read this nonesense at?

Please, show me :scratch:

You think any team would have traded for him had this been true?


Looking forward to your response.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3602173

Oh and Ozzie Guillen backs up my claims in this article saying Javy sucked under pressure. These weren't parting shots by Ozzie. These were comments made by him in the middle of the season when Javy was choking away our 2008 AL Central crown.

LoveYourSuit
08-17-2009, 12:33 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3602173

Oh and Ozzie Guillen backs up my claims in this article saying Javy sucked under pressure. These weren't parting shots by Ozzie. These were comments made by him in the middle of the season when Javy was choking away our 2008 AL Central crown.


And another thing:

So now Javy was the lone reason that division crown was being pissed away.

No one else was at fault, right?

How about the MVP who because of his fire and passion decided to be a dumb ass and break his wrist on his bat.

Or how about the bullpen collapse during the entire second half?

munchman33
08-17-2009, 12:34 AM
This is purely a WSI myth that basic evaluation shows to be false.

What the **** dude. Seriously.

I'm sorry jabrch, but you're lying through your teeth. I've mentioned this time and again and posted the statistics more than once for you. His September splits between contending and non-contending teams is across the board in favor of his inability to win when it matters. If you're gonna call something myth, you better be prepared to back that claim up.

jabrch
08-17-2009, 12:39 AM
These were comments made by him in the middle of the season when Javy was choking away our 2008 AL Central crown.

In August and Sept he averaged 3 ER per start in 12 starts.

He didn't choke away anything. That's just silly. Blame the real culprit - the team that didn't score more runs.

Tragg
08-17-2009, 12:45 AM
It depends on how Flowers and the other 2 prospects develop. If 2 of the 3 become major leaguers, it's a win (or if 1 becomes a special player).

Frankly, if we had traded 3 prospects for him, the same people would be making smarmy comments about how the prospects have done nothing, while the pitcher has pitched great.

LoveYourSuit
08-17-2009, 12:46 AM
I will say this about the actual topic of the thread:


Yes I am happy Javy was traded now that I seed the end result of the development of Flowers and us being able to acquire Jake Peavy.

I will admit that I was very upset when the trade was done and we did not replace his innings with anything remotely serviceable to start the year and up until the Peavy trade. That was very upsetting and in the end it might end up costing us the division. But who cares if the bigger plan/picture works out with Jake Peavy and actually winning a World Series next season and the one after is a realistic possibility.

SoxNation05
08-17-2009, 01:39 AM
Jon Gilmore. He's having a lousy season at Kanny, but could still develop into something. We also got a lefty reliever who is in Bristol or GFalls, can't remember which off the top of my head.
S:scratch:antos Rodriguez? I think that's his name.

bigdommer
08-17-2009, 05:42 AM
Like most trades, this one cannot be evaluated on the talent swap alone. If that was the case, then KW's heist of Rios would be the best and most one-sided trade of all time. Instead, the money has to be considered. KW had 4/5 type starters in Jose/Javy making 1/2 type of money. It did not make fiscal sense. Jose couldn't be traded because of his injury, and KW determined that Javy was an innings filler and little else. I like the trade.

hawkjt
08-17-2009, 09:17 AM
Your comments may make one nervous about the coming of Jacob Edward Peavy.


That concern is shared. Lets hope he is the exception that proves the rule.

Iwritecode
08-17-2009, 09:29 AM
And another thing:

So now Javy was the lone reason that division crown was being pissed away.

No one else was at fault, right?

How about the MVP who because of his fire and passion decided to be a dumb ass and break his wrist on his bat.

Or how about the bullpen collapse during the entire second half?

You're completely changing the argument...

Iwritecode
08-17-2009, 09:33 AM
In August and Sept he averaged 3 ER per start in 12 starts.

He didn't choke away anything. That's just silly. Blame the real culprit - the team that didn't score more runs.

Yet in his last three starts of that season he gave up 6, 5 and 7 runs and didn't pitch more than 4.1 innings.

thedudeabides
08-17-2009, 09:50 AM
Yet in his last three starts of that season he gave up 6, 5 and 7 runs and didn't pitch more than 4.1 innings.

And he looked so scared to take the mound, the Sox were considering starting Clayton Richard over him, in game 1 of the playoffs. And this sentiment was shared by quite a few here.

I also remember Kenny Williams talking about going into the locker room to look certain players in the eyes, to see if they could handle the playoff race. A lot of speculation was Javy and Swisher, and to nobody's surprise they were gone in the offseason.

Face it, like the trade or not, he was gone. Kenny got rid of $23 million of salary, and acquired the #1 prospect in our system. I like the return we got for Javy better than what we gave up for Peavy.

southside rocks
08-17-2009, 09:56 AM
What I think should be discussed is how "little" Kenny got back for a pitcher who gives you 200+ innings and 13-15 wins per year. Maybe it was the "market" but considering how valuable pitching is, the fact that the Sox got Brent Lillibridge (a waste) and Flowers, a prospect who may or may not make it in the major leagues, seems to me to not be enough.

I think that's more the question here.

Lip

They also got rid of Javy's salary, which was a contract that I think KW quickly came to regret.

jabrch
08-17-2009, 09:56 AM
Yet in his last three starts of that season he gave up 6, 5 and 7 runs and didn't pitch more than 4.1 innings.


Sample size of 3 out of 33 is hardly enough to conclude he chokes. Not when expanding that sample size to 12 out of 33 shows the opposite.

jabrch
08-17-2009, 09:58 AM
And he looked so scared to take the mound,

That's ridiculous. That's non measureable fluff. You can't tell from looking at a guy (face to face - much less from your seats - and even less on TV) and tell if he is scared to take the mound. That's just ridiculous.

thedudeabides
08-17-2009, 09:58 AM
Sample size of 3 out of 33 is hardly enough to conclude he chokes. Not when expanding that sample size to 12 out of 33 shows the opposite.

Bottom line, if he had to take the ball in late September against the Tigers this year, would you trust him?

thedudeabides
08-17-2009, 09:59 AM
That's ridiculous. That's non measureable fluff. You can't tell from looking at a guy (face to face - much less from your seats - and even less on TV) and tell if he is scared to take the mound. That's just ridiculous.

Really, because the manager and general manager called him out on it? And former management teams have felt the same.

southside rocks
08-17-2009, 09:59 AM
Sample size of 3 out of 33 is hardly enough to conclude he chokes. Not when expanding that sample size to 12 out of 33 shows the opposite.

I don't think the "choker" characterization was made on numbers alone. I expect that if Ozzie and Kenny were to speak frankly about this topic -- which they never will publicly -- they would list a few other things, many of which are dismissed as "intangibles" by some but which do figure into calculations about what players to keep on a team.

Javy is a candy-ass. Has been his entire career. Read what Joe Torre said about him in his book -- he said that Javy choked in the stretch when he was with the Yankees.

jabrch
08-17-2009, 10:06 AM
Bottom line, if he had to take the ball in late September against the Tigers this year, would you trust him?

What are my options?

If he was throwing well, of course I would. If he wasn't throwing well, then I wouldn't. But that's not the arguement this entire thread is about. This is about if the trade was good or bad. And the arguement people make for it being good is that Javy is a choker. That's bull****.

Now I liked the trade for a different reason. I like Javy and his 200+ IP, and his potential to shut anyone down. If I had Javy with a sub 3.00 ERA and 1.041 WHIP, I'd be thrilled to have him take the mound for me in any month you choose. But in a market where having cash available puts you in the drivers seat, a big contract like that (23mm over 2) was a luxury we didn't have for our 4th or 5th best starter. We couldn't move Jose. We shouldn't have moved Danks/Floyd. So I liked the move because it was the best way for Williams to create payroll flexibility (which he did - and we see the results of it) and to take the shot that the staff felt they were ready to do with the handful of guys they wanted to try at #5. Now in hindsight, that didn't work out well - but the payroll flexibility he created is the reason he could do what he did.

What's your point? Javy had 3 bad starts last sept? Fine - no arguement. Javy is "unclutch" and "chokes"? You can't say that based on a small sample size of 3 games that came during a larger sample size of 12 where he was awesome.

jabrch
08-17-2009, 10:07 AM
Javy is a candy-ass.

What the hell does that mean?

southside rocks
08-17-2009, 10:11 AM
What the hell does that mean?

When I get home tonight, I will find the part of Joe Torre's book that I am referring to, and post the page number of Torre's comments. Joe Torre made pretty much the same observations about Vazquez's ability to pitch under pressure that a number of posters in this thread have made.

You've never heard the term "candy-ass"? :rolleyes:

thedudeabides
08-17-2009, 10:17 AM
What are my options?

If he was throwing well, of course I would. If he wasn't throwing well, then I wouldn't. But that's not the arguement this entire thread is about. This is about if the trade was good or bad. And the arguement people make for it being good is that Javy is a choker. That's bull****.

Now I liked the trade for a different reason. I like Javy and his 200+ IP, and his potential to shut anyone down. If I had Javy with a sub 3.00 ERA and 1.041 WHIP, I'd be thrilled to have him take the mound for me in any month you choose. But in a market where having cash available puts you in the drivers seat, a big contract like that (23mm over 2) was a luxury we didn't have for our 4th or 5th best starter. We couldn't move Jose. We shouldn't have moved Danks/Floyd. So I liked the move because it was the best way for Williams to create payroll flexibility (which he did - and we see the results of it) and to take the shot that the staff felt they were ready to do with the handful of guys they wanted to try at #5. Now in hindsight, that didn't work out well - but the payroll flexibility he created is the reason he could do what he did.

What's your point? Javy had 3 bad starts last sept? Fine - no arguement. Javy is "unclutch" and "chokes"? You can't say that based on a small sample size of 3 games that came during a larger sample size of 12 where he was awesome.

Fine, I just disagree. The Yankees disagreed, and the Sox management disagreed. Joe Torre wrote about it.

You think he looked the same on the mound at the end of last year, and the end of 2006? In the most improtant games of the year.

I said earlier I liked the trade. One of the reasons is because he wore out his welcome with the Sox. If you think his mental aspect had nothing to do with that, than fine. You don't like the term choker, that's fine too. However, a lot of people inside and out of the organization lost trust in him.

Iwritecode
08-17-2009, 10:19 AM
What's your point? Javy had 3 bad starts last sept? Fine - no arguement. Javy is "unclutch" and "chokes"? You can't say that based on a small sample size of 3 games that came during a larger sample size of 12 where he was awesome.

But of those 12, I think those last three were the ones with the most pressure to win. One was against the Yankees. One was against Minnesota where even one win would've given the some breathing room. The last one was against Cleveland where by only the luck of the Royals beating the Twins did they stay in the race and force games 162 & 163.

jabrch
08-17-2009, 10:21 AM
You've never heard the term "candy-ass"? :rolleyes:

My question still stands - What the hell does that mean?

jabrch
08-17-2009, 10:28 AM
You think he looked the same on the mound at the end of last year, and the end of 2006? In the most improtant games of the year.


Depends on how he was pitching. He looked fine to me when he was getting guys out. The fact that he only got 3 rpg in run support in his last 12 games of 2008 wasn't his fault. Same in 06 - We scored 7 runs in his last 6 starts. I think he looked like a pitcher who was getting 1 run per game in run support. over his last 12 he got 31 runs scored for him. Still fewer than 3 runs per game.

1 run per game in his last 6 starts. 2.5 rpg in his last 12 starts. And you think he choked? You think he didn't handle pressure? I'd point to the 9 guys with sticks in their hand who didn't show up at all.

gr8mexico
08-17-2009, 10:34 AM
If Vazquez were still here, the Peavy trade would not have been made.

I was never a Javy fan.
I agree

DirtySox
08-17-2009, 10:35 AM
Santos Rodriguez is the other prospect we acquired. Supposedly he has great stuff with control issues and lately has been pitching in Bristol as their closer. He could be one to keep an eye on but he is likely very far away.

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=520951

thedudeabides
08-17-2009, 10:48 AM
Depends on how he was pitching. He looked fine to me when he was getting guys out. The fact that he only got 3 rpg in run support in his last 12 games of 2008 wasn't his fault. Same in 06 - We scored 7 runs in his last 6 starts. I think he looked like a pitcher who was getting 1 run per game in run support. over his last 12 he got 31 runs scored for him. Still fewer than 3 runs per game.

1 run per game in his last 6 starts. 2.5 rpg in his last 12 starts. And you think he choked? You think he didn't handle pressure? I'd point to the 9 guys with sticks in their hand who didn't show up at all.

I really didn't want to get into this discussion. We're not going to agree, and that's fine. We're sort of arguing a couple of different points. He is a valuable pitcher during the season. In the AL, I didn't think he was worth nearly what he was making. And yes, when it mattered most, I don't think he could be relied upon. His playoff start, and his last three starts were all huge games, and he fell apart in all of them. His last two starts against Minn. and Cle. in 2006, also pretty much must win games, he fell apart. He did the same with the Yankees. I watched all of those games, and he looked like a noticeably different pitcher. I think there is something to be said for a guy who has been in 3 playoff races, and everytime his team needed him to step up at the very end, he couldn't do it.

gr8mexico
08-17-2009, 10:51 AM
Jon Gilmore. He's having a lousy season at Kanny, but could still develop into something. We also got a lefty reliever who is in Bristol or GFalls, can't remember which off the top of my head.
Jon Gilmore was a 1st round pick and is only 21 years old. So he still has
some time. The other player in the trade was Santos Rodriguez
http://www.baseballamerica.com/statistics/players/cards/?pl_id=84385
A 6 foot 5 LHP.

jabrch
08-17-2009, 10:53 AM
I really didn't want to get into this discussion. We're not going to agree, and that's fine. We're sort of arguing a couple of different points. He is a valuable pitcher during the season. In the AL, I didn't think he was worth nearly what he was making. And yes, when it mattered most, I don't think he could be relied upon. His playoff start, and his last three starts were all huge games, and he fell apart in all of them. His last two starts against Minn. and Cle. in 2006, also pretty much must win games, he fell apart. He did the same with the Yankees. I watched all of those games, and he looked like a noticeably different pitcher. I think there is something to be said for a guy who has been in 3 playoff races, and everytime his team needed him to step up at the very end, he couldn't do it.

You brought up 2006. I answered you. Now you are changing the subject to how he looks?

Come on thedude... This guy got **** run support in late 06. He pitching fine in August and September of 08. You are now isolating out 3 starts to prove a point. I'm sorry - I can't buy it that you can conclude something based on 3 starts from how he looks. That's just not realistic.

If the team would have scored 4 RPG when he started, he would have had even more impressive numbers. I just don't get how a sample size of 3 games is enough to conclude something like this. But yes - looks like we ought to just agree to disagree on this one.

thedudeabides
08-17-2009, 11:02 AM
You brought up 2006. I answered you. Now you are changing the subject to how he looks?

Come on thedude... This guy got **** run support in late 06. He pitching fine in August and September of 08. You are now isolating out 3 starts to prove a point. I'm sorry - I can't buy it that you can conclude something based on 3 starts from how he looks. That's just not realistic.

If the team would have scored 4 RPG when he started, he would have had even more impressive numbers. I just don't get how a sample size of 3 games is enough to conclude something like this. But yes - looks like we ought to just agree to disagree on this one.

I wasn't ever arguing anything but a handful of starts, and I never once called him a choker or said he was terrible in August or September. But, that's how people get labeled chokers. In a very small sample size. When a team needs a guy the most, and when two of your previous managers have called you out publicly about it, the moniker is likely to stick.

I don't put sole blame on him for 2006 or 2008. There were much larger problems, but he contributed to it,and was so bad at the very end, it's easy to point the finger at him.

Anyway, this has been beaten to death over the years, and I respect your points and opinions, so I'm just going to let it go.

AzureJazzMan
08-17-2009, 11:44 AM
Here is a really good article on Javy, and paints a pretty honest portrait... http://umpbump.com/press/2009/04/08/is-javy-vazquez-a-headcase/

As for Vazquez Vs. Peavy when it counts, see the stats below...

Javy's Playoff Experience...

2004 NYY (Div. Series) 9.00 ERA, 5 IP, 5 ER (1 HR), 6 K, 2 BB

2004 NYY (Ch. Series) 9.95 ERA, 6.1 IP, 7 ER (3 HR), 6 K, 7 BB

2008 CWS (Div. Series) 12.46 ERA, 4.1 IP, 6 ER (2 HR), 6 K, 1 BB

Peavy's Playoff Experience...

2005 SDP (Div. Series) 16.63 ERA, 4.1 IP, 8 ER (2 HR), 3 K, 3 BB

2006 SDP (Div. Series) 8.44 ERA, 5.1 IP, 5 ER (1 HR), 2 K, 1 BB

asindc
08-17-2009, 11:46 AM
What are my options?

If he was throwing well, of course I would. If he wasn't throwing well, then I wouldn't. But that's not the arguement this entire thread is about. This is about if the trade was good or bad. And the arguement people make for it being good is that Javy is a choker. That's bull****.

Now I liked the trade for a different reason. I like Javy and his 200+ IP, and his potential to shut anyone down. If I had Javy with a sub 3.00 ERA and 1.041 WHIP, I'd be thrilled to have him take the mound for me in any month you choose. But in a market where having cash available puts you in the drivers seat, a big contract like that (23mm over 2) was a luxury we didn't have for our 4th or 5th best starter. We couldn't move Jose. We shouldn't have moved Danks/Floyd. So I liked the move because it was the best way for Williams to create payroll flexibility (which he did - and we see the results of it) and to take the shot that the staff felt they were ready to do with the handful of guys they wanted to try at #5. Now in hindsight, that didn't work out well - but the payroll flexibility he created is the reason he could do what he did.

What's your point? Javy had 3 bad starts last sept? Fine - no arguement. Javy is "unclutch" and "chokes"? You can't say that based on a small sample size of 3 games that came during a larger sample size of 12 where he was awesome.

That's exactly why I agree with others who have pointed out that Javy did not get it done. Sure, he pitched fine if he is considered your 4th or 5th starter. But he was making #2 starter money, which factors into how I evaluate his performance.

If Javy was willing to take a pay cut that reflected his actual performance (something like 5-6 million a year, max), I would have vehemently opposed the trade. But trading someone who makes top of the rotation money but produces bottom of the rotation results is worthwhile in my book. Especially when you get AJ's heir apparent in the process.

jabrch
08-17-2009, 11:51 AM
Here is a really good article on Javy, and paints a pretty honest portrait... http://umpbump.com/press/2009/04/08/is-javy-vazquez-a-headcase/

As for Vazquez Vs. Peavy when it counts, see the stats below...

Javy's Playoff Experience...

2004 NYY (Div. Series) 9.00 ERA, 5 IP, 5 ER (1 HR), 6 K, 2 BB

2004 NYY (Ch. Series) 9.95 ERA, 6.1 IP, 7 ER (3 HR), 6 K, 7 BB

2008 CWS (Div. Series) 12.46 ERA, 4.1 IP, 6 ER (2 HR), 6 K, 1 BB

Peavy's Playoff Experience...

2005 SDP (Div. Series) 16.63 ERA, 4.1 IP, 8 ER (2 HR), 3 K, 3 BB

2006 SDP (Div. Series) 8.44 ERA, 5.1 IP, 5 ER (1 HR), 2 K, 1 BB

From that data, we can conclude.... nothing?


That's exactly why I agree with others who have pointed out that Javy did not get it done. Sure, he pitched fine if he is considered your 4th or 5th starter. But he was making #2 starter money, which factors into how I evaluate his performance.

If Javy was willing to take a pay cut that reflected his actual performance (something like 5-6 million a year, max), I would have vehemently opposed the trade. But trading someone who makes top of the rotation money but produces bottom of the rotation results is worthwhile in my book. Especially when you get AJ's heir apparent in the process.

I think he's a fine #3. He was projecting to be our #4/#5 because of how strong our rotation is. A guy of his calibre, when he deal was signed, was worth well over 5-6mm. Garland got 7 in a very down year. Doug Davis makes more than 7. Javy has a 3.00 ERA and a near 1.00 WHIP. That's not a #4/#5. And it isn't a $5-6MM guy. I liked the trade - but not because I didn't like Javy. I liked the trade because we had 3 better arms already and leveraged market savy to position ourselves well.

AzureJazzMan
08-17-2009, 12:03 PM
From that data, we can conclude.... nothing

You can take from it what you will, make up your own mind. I was just presenting the stats, for reference.

munchman33
08-17-2009, 12:29 PM
Jabrch is right. We didn't get enough for a guy like Javy Vazquez. A stud prospect at a position our system had no depth at, along with the financial flexibility to pick up the long term contracts of a Cy Young winning pitcher and an all star center fielder? Kenny got caught with his pants down, for sure.

fram40
08-17-2009, 02:47 PM
Jabrch is right. We didn't get enough for a guy like Javy Vazquez. A stud prospect at a position our system had no depth at, along with the financial flexibility to pick up the long term contracts of a Cy Young winning pitcher and an all star center fielder? Kenny got caught with his pants down, for sure.

how much are going to get for a guy that two managers have labeled a choker? making $ 11/12 million to boot.

It seems like we should have gotten more, but given the facts, maybe we are lucky we got what we did

palehozenychicty
08-17-2009, 02:56 PM
I can't believe this thread is so long. :rolleyes:

Vazquez is a mediocre pitcher who makes quality money. He had to go.

munchman33
08-17-2009, 03:36 PM
how much are going to get for a guy that two managers have labeled a choker? making $ 11/12 million to boot.

It seems like we should have gotten more, but given the facts, maybe we are lucky we got what we did

That was sarcasm. IMO Kenny turned a worthless piece of **** into gold.

DirtySox
08-17-2009, 03:37 PM
how much are going to get for a guy that two managers have labeled a choker? making $ 11/12 million to boot.

It seems like we should have gotten more, but given the facts, maybe we are lucky we got what we did

Wut? The return was rather good.

fram40
08-17-2009, 03:45 PM
That was sarcasm. IMO Kenny turned a worthless piece of **** into gold.

I missed the sarcasm obviously. I am no fan of Javy and am surprised we got anything for him. I cannot imagine that Ozzie's challenge and Javy's subsequent laydown increased Javy's trade value

TornLabrum
08-17-2009, 04:13 PM
That was sarcasm. IMO Kenny turned a worthless piece of **** into gold.
:tealpolice: