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Sockinchisox
08-11-2009, 07:56 PM
It just happened, Porcello hit Youkilis with a pitch in the shoulder and Youkilis charged the mound and tackled Porcello. Everyone is on the field right now.

jsg-07
08-11-2009, 07:56 PM
suspend the Tigers whole team for three games!

Flamer
08-11-2009, 08:02 PM
suspend the Tigers whole team for three games!

Lol. I know that does not sound very classy, but I also wish some of the better players from the Tigers receive some long suspensions. :redneck

fram40
08-11-2009, 08:04 PM
Miggy was hit in first by rookie Roid Sox pitcher Tazawa high and tight, did not appear to be on purpose Miggy taken out in seciond inning for Xrays

Porcello threw at V Martinez in first inning and then hit Youklis in second inning Porcello thrown to ground altho it apperas Youklis may have hit the ground harder than Porcello

MLB network guys are saying Porcello over-reacted no way was Tazawa throwing at Miggy

Sockinchisox
08-11-2009, 08:04 PM
Porcello was ejected.

Big D
08-11-2009, 08:04 PM
Lol. I know that does not sound very classy, but I also wish some of the better players from the Tigers receive some long suspensions. :redneck

I'm guessing Porcello will be suspended. The Boston pitcher barely hit Miguel Cabrera in the 1st (with people on base, so it obviously wasn't intentional), and Porcello responds by throwing at two people.

JB98
08-11-2009, 08:05 PM
Cheer for injuries and suspensions.

DrGiggles
08-11-2009, 08:05 PM
I'm looking all over the TV, but no sports channels are showing anything. Bummer. I want to see it.

Pear-Zin-Ski
08-11-2009, 08:09 PM
ha...Youk charges but manages to get taken down by Porcello!

Pear-Zin-Ski
08-11-2009, 08:10 PM
and look at that...the game knots up at 3!

DirtySox
08-11-2009, 08:12 PM
Very nice. The Porcello ejection makes this game a whole lot more interesting.

DaveFeelsRight
08-11-2009, 08:13 PM
i don't wish any harm to any player but, if porcello got hurt from that fall and miggy getting hurt from getting hit in the hand, it would help us out alot haha

DirtySox
08-11-2009, 08:14 PM
Francona just tossed as well.

TDog
08-11-2009, 08:15 PM
Cheer for injuries and suspensions.

I wouldn't be upset at all if retaliating for a hit batsman ended up costing the Tigers the division. Justice would be served. Retaliating by throwing at hitters is the wrong thing to do.

1989
08-11-2009, 08:21 PM
Cheer for injuries and suspensions.

this

JohnnyInnsbrook
08-11-2009, 08:21 PM
I think they should hold off on suspensions until the 24th :D:

rocky biddle
08-11-2009, 08:25 PM
How much you want to bet some genius media guy blames this on Ozzie?

Whappeh
08-11-2009, 08:35 PM
lol @ how Youk got dropped by the 20 year old pitcher.

socko82
08-11-2009, 08:52 PM
This actually started last night. Cabrera & Inge got drilled last night and Youkalis took a fastball from Jackson in the ribs and was not happy about it.

DSpivack
08-11-2009, 08:53 PM
lol @ how Youk got dropped by the 20 year old pitcher.

Nice tackle by Porcello. LOL @ Youk throwing down the helmet. Other than that, a whole lot of standing around.

FloridaTigers
08-11-2009, 09:12 PM
Nice. Cheering for injuries. How expected. :scratch:

Oblong
08-11-2009, 09:17 PM
Youkilis = the new Robin Ventura.

Not only did he charge Porcello, he threw his helmet at him on the way. Then he gets slammed by a 20 year old. Punk.

There was crap going on last night too.

TommyGavinFloyd
08-11-2009, 09:21 PM
The way people were talking about it, I though Porcello bodyslammed him or something. All he did was take Youk's momentum and turn him to the ground. Not impressed nor is it embarrassing towards Youk. And why are people saying "Oh he got slammed by a 20 year old"? A 20 year old should be able to handle a 30 year old.

SoxGirl4Life
08-11-2009, 09:24 PM
Nice. Cheering for injuries. How expected. :scratch:

Awwww... no one really means it. You guys would be saying the same on the Motown board if it was the Sox. :grouphug:

JGarlandrules20
08-11-2009, 09:25 PM
Not only did he charge Porcello, he threw his helmet at him on the way. Then he gets slammed by a 20 year old. Punk.

Oh, he threw a helmet. That's MUCH worse than being hit in the back with a fastball? Not saying it was classy, but I can understand his anger and chucking whatever he had there, hah.

Oblong
08-11-2009, 09:25 PM
yeah, especially when he's throwing a helmet at you in the process.

Youk's a douche. He charges, throws his helmet, and gets taken down. Hope the suspension was worth it.

getonbckthr
08-11-2009, 09:28 PM
Youkilis = the new Robin Ventura.

Not only did he charge Porcello, he threw his helmet at him on the way. Then he gets slammed by a 20 year old. Punk.

There was crap going on last night too.

This actually started last night. Cabrera & Inge got drilled last night and Youkalis took a fastball from Jackson in the ribs and was not happy about it.
If this is true then whether the 1st plunking tonight was intentional or not I like that Porcello went after them. You gotta defend your team mates.

CLR01
08-11-2009, 09:29 PM
yeah, especially when he's throwing a helmet at you in the process.

Youk's a douche. He charges, throws his helmet, and gets taken down. Hope the suspension was worth it.

They're both going to be suspended. :dunno:

VeeckAsInWreck
08-11-2009, 09:31 PM
There was crap going on last night too.

Tigers should've signed Vicente Padilla to a one day contract. :tongue:

oeo
08-11-2009, 09:31 PM
Nice. Cheering for injuries. How expected. :scratch:

If you're going to have a cat fight, you get what you deserve. :shrug:

thedudeabides
08-11-2009, 09:32 PM
yeah, especially when he's throwing a helmet at you in the process.

Youk's a douche. He charges, throws his helmet, and gets taken down. Hope the suspension was worth it.

I agree with this part, but I can understand why he was mad. The way people were getting hit, it wasn't going to end until someone charged or people started getting tossed. Porcello probably should have let it go after hitting Martnez.

bridgeportcopper
08-11-2009, 09:39 PM
we got some coming up with Bosox too, so suspensions on that side would be cool too.

Zisk77
08-11-2009, 09:46 PM
Oh, he threw a helmet. That's MUCH worse than being hit in the back with a fastball? Not saying it was classy, but I can understand his anger and chucking whatever he had there, hah.


I remember seeing video of bert campanaris being brushed back and then firing the bat at the mound.

#1swisher
08-11-2009, 09:55 PM
Rain Delay Top of the 7th

Boston 6
Detroit 3

TDog
08-11-2009, 09:59 PM
If this is true then whether the 1st plunking tonight was intentional or not I like that Porcello went after them. You gotta defend your team mates.

Even if it makes you a loser.

getonbckthr
08-11-2009, 10:09 PM
Even if it makes you a loser.
Ya he's a loser for defending his team mate.:rolleyes: Boston doesn't like it simple don't throw at people if you can't handle getting thrown at as well.

Oblong
08-11-2009, 10:12 PM
That's the part that sucks. It was only the 2nd inning. Tonight was the game the Tigers could win. I think Galarraga was scheduled against Beckett tomorrow.

http://nbcsportsmedia3.msnbc.com/j/ap/1650423b-3bbc-49a1-9210-ae68f59ba34e.hmedium.jpg

getonbckthr
08-11-2009, 10:13 PM
I love how mlb network roasted Youkilis.

TDog
08-11-2009, 10:20 PM
Ya he's a loser for defending his team mate.:rolleyes: Boston doesn't like it simple don't throw at people if you can't handle getting thrown at as well.

He's a loser because intentionally hitting batters in retaliation for hit batters usually leads to your team losing.

If you want to retaliate against a pitcher, there are more effective ways than throwing at people. And in this case, it doesn't even appear the hit batsman that instigated the retaliation was even intentional.

Big D
08-11-2009, 10:58 PM
How about worrying about winning the ****ing game before you worry about retaliating? Porcello could have waited until later in the game to retaliate (when maybe the game would have been one-sided), but instead, he got himself thrown out in the 2nd inning and stuck the Detroit bullpen with 8 innings to pitch. The guy that came into the game to replace him has gotten lit up. But hey, at least Porcello's teammates are patting him on the back.

soxfanreggie
08-11-2009, 10:59 PM
Even if there are suspensions, they will probably all be appealed except for maybe Porcello.

Eddo144
08-11-2009, 11:18 PM
He's a loser because intentionally hitting batters in retaliation for hit batters usually leads to your team losing.

If you want to retaliate against a pitcher, there are more effective ways than throwing at people. And in this case, it doesn't even appear the hit batsman that instigated the retaliation was even intentional.
Agreed. While I don't have a moral stance against retaliation, competitively, it makes little sense.

If an opponent hits one of your players, that's a good thing for your team. Especially with guys on base, like when Cabrera got hit. Obviously, the best way to get back at them is to do something (hit one of their players) that benefits their team.

How about you retaliate by capitalizing on the free baserunners they give you? Or by hitting a home run?

SBSoxFan
08-11-2009, 11:20 PM
Even if it makes you a loser.

A brawl did wonders for the Sox in 2000.

DSpivack
08-11-2009, 11:47 PM
If you're going to have a cat fight, you get what you deserve. :shrug:

Wouldn't any fight the Tigers get in be a cat fight? :tongue:

TDog
08-12-2009, 01:32 AM
A brawl did wonders for the Sox in 2000.

An April brawl solidified the team. this late in such as close pennant race, such mass suspensions as they experienced may have had the opposite effect.

Eddo144
08-12-2009, 01:42 AM
A brawl did wonders for the Sox in 2000.
Correlation != causation.

If his struggles continue, you wouldn't say that throwing a perfect game caused Buehrle to be a worse pitcher for the remainder of the season, would you?

MarkZ35
08-12-2009, 02:18 AM
What's hilarious is that the Tigers fans don't realize that the Red Sox didn't mean to hit Cabrera. It was an 0-2 count today with 2 guys on. It was completely obvious they tried to hit Youkils today and yesterday. Is charging the mound right? Probably not but it comes to a point where the Tigers just continue to retaliate and nothing being done about. I hope the Tigers have injuries and suspensions for being such idiots.

doublem23
08-12-2009, 02:40 AM
Correlation != causation.

If his struggles continue, you wouldn't say that throwing a perfect game caused Buehrle to be a worse pitcher for the remainder of the season, would you?

Most of the players from the 2000 team have said in interviews that the brawl with the Tigers was a huge moment in the season that really brought together a team that was mostly young, unproven kids.

Oblong
08-12-2009, 08:37 AM
If Porcello was going after Youkilis in the 2nd, then that may not have been the smartest thing to do. However, no warnings were issued and he did not hit Martinez earlier in the game, just came inside. We all know what a whiner Victor can be.

The umps managed this wrong all the way around. The standard is, if you get hit by a good pitcher, charge the mound, and you'll both be ejected? Great strategy.

The Red Sox announcers were saying that Porcello MADE him charge the mound. It was his fault. Did he also have a magnet attached to him that forced him to throw his helmet at him?

Taliesinrk
08-12-2009, 09:05 AM
Agreed. While I don't have a moral stance against retaliation, competitively, it makes little sense.

If an opponent hits one of your players, that's a good thing for your team. Especially with guys on base, like when Cabrera got hit. Obviously, the best way to get back at them is to do something (hit one of their players) that benefits their team.

How about you retaliate by capitalizing on the free baserunners they give you? Or by hitting a home run?

What? No. False. Erroneous on both accounts. Getting hit as a batter is not always a "good" thing. And retailiation makes sense on multiple levels:

1. If you allow the other team to throw inside on you (and subsequently hit your players) it expands the plate for the opposing pitchers, making hitting more difficult for you. Believe me... when some dude is touching 93 and puts one right underneath my hands, I'm not covering the outside slider... but that's just me. The way you combat that is by making sure your pitchers make it clear that throwing at/near/too close to your hitters will not be tolerated (and since hand-written notes aren't the best way to send the message), your pitchers must throw inside/AT the opposing hitters if the situation dictates.

2. By throwing in retaliation you don't end up with 5 guys hit in 1-2 days (see: Indians series), or whatever the number was - it was ridiculous. It doesn't matter if they meant to. By letting the other team know you may hurt their players, I guarantee their pitchers think twice about throwing in... not only saving potential future injuries to your hitters, but also making your hitters better at the plate by allowing them to not have the thought that they may get ear-holed the next pitch. This makes them more effective because they cover the plate better and can do things like dive over it to really hit how they want.

3. It builds a stronger team when you know a guy with the same uniform as you is willing to put himself (and health) on the line to stand up for you. As dumb as I think it was for Procello to throw at hitters in two consecutive innings, you don't think Cabrera and company are gonna be on their bellies next time a grounder is hit in the hole. Not saying that they're not trying for their other pitchers, but I guarantee they're giving that extra 10% trying to help out a 20-year old fresh out of the draft, without a long-term lucrative contract (that maybe incorrect because I think he was a big name and Boras' client), that put his health, season, and career (perhaps overexagerated) on the line to defend a teammate. What if Youkilis takes him down there and he lands awkwardly on his shoulder and tears it up? His career could have ended and (granted that's pretty extreme, but still) I guarantee that helps chemistry... at least with the other 8/9 (w/ DH) guys on the field respecting Porcello - you can't argue that.

I guess I really got away from my numbered points and it just turned into typing.. but you get the point.

It's just that when I read comments like yours and the one you quoted, they read like the statheads talking about baseball who have apparently never played or been on a team or interacted with other people to understand human nature (1/2 teal there). It's not JUST a numbers game. Humans play these games and there are intangible factors. It's not as simple as hit batter = baserunner = higher probability of scoring runs --> more runs = more likely to win = more likely to go to playoffs = more likely to win world series. Throwing at hitters/ retaliating certainly makes sense if the situation warrants.

hawkjt
08-12-2009, 09:23 AM
What's hilarious is that the Tigers fans don't realize that the Red Sox didn't mean to hit Cabrera. It was an 0-2 count today with 2 guys on. It was completely obvious they tried to hit Youkils today and yesterday. Is charging the mound right? Probably not but it comes to a point where the Tigers just continue to retaliate and nothing being done about. I hope the Tigers have injuries and suspensions for being such idiots.


It is August and tempers are short,no doubt about it. I was surprised when Ozzie was yelling at Fister last nite after he buzzed JD...I doubt there was intent there, but camera caught Ozzie yelling some bad words out at Fister...naughty boy,Oz..:D:

Taliesinrk
08-12-2009, 09:24 AM
Most of the players from the 2000 team have said in interviews that the brawl with the Tigers was a huge moment in the season that really brought together a team that was mostly young, unproven kids.

I mean you couldn't help but be brought together or ripped apart by that (technically, "those") incident(s). I mean with how just grusome, ridiculous, pathetic, dirty, and classless the Tigers were, it kind of forced the Sox to make a decision one way or the other: become closer or break apart. I mean I vividly remember a Kitten (either higginson or this other piece of **** - his name is slipping my mind) spiking the hell out of one of the Sox players... I think it was Foulke (which would explain all the stitches - does he still have a scar there? - on his face). The way it went down, I remember thinking it looked like the Sox had come accross a gang in the middle of the night and anything went. Of course (this could be selective memory - but I don't think so), I only remember the Kittens as being incredibly dirty... I can't remember the Sox fighting that way. I mean just typing this makes me angry thinking about it. I can't believe grown men (and "professionals") were fighting the way they were. I mean be a man about it, seriously. Who goes around and kicks people with metal cleats? What bitches. I really wish I could remember the name of the one Tiger, because if I were the GM, I would have cut him immediately... no questions asked.

Anyhow, I got off track... all I was trying to say is that I don't think this "fight" (it really was only about a 3 second two-man wrestling match) dictates some sort of bonding experience with either of the teams. It could - and I think Procello earned some credibility by showing he had a pair (even if it was dumb to try to throw at two hitters when he missed the first) - but the situations are very different.

PKalltheway
08-12-2009, 09:38 AM
(either higginson or this other piece of **** - his name is slipping my mind)
I think the other piece of **** you're referring to was either Robert Fick or Dean Palmer. Man, many of the players on the Tigers acted like a bunch of thugs that day.

Taliesinrk
08-12-2009, 09:39 AM
What's hilarious is that the Tigers fans don't realize that the Red Sox didn't mean to hit Cabrera. It was an 0-2 count today with 2 guys on. It was completely obvious they tried to hit Youkils today and yesterday. Is charging the mound right? Probably not but it comes to a point where the Tigers just continue to retaliate and nothing being done about. I hope the Tigers have injuries and suspensions for being such idiots.

I agree that throughout the years the Tigers have been loose cannons, and clearly Cabrera really hit himself... I mean he turned into it. However, wasn't he hit the night before? If not, I know at least one if not two or more Tigers were hit and w/o knowing who started what, Cabrera is your franchise player and you don't want people throwing in on him, regardless of intention. X-rays were negative, but what if he had cracked his wrist/hand? This leads me to commenting on the below quote....

It is August and tempers are short,no doubt about it. I was surprised when Ozzie was yelling at Fister last nite after he buzzed JD...I doubt there was intent there, but camera caught Ozzie yelling some bad words out at Fister...naughty boy,Oz..:D:

I don't think you should have been surprised by Ozzie last night. I was a bit disappointed in Hawk as he was repeating that Fister wasn't doing it intentionally and subsequently inferring that Ozzie thought Fister was doing it intentionally. I don't know what Ozzie thought Fister's intentions were, but he didn't need to (and I don't think he necessarily did) think that Fister was doing it intentionally. Rather (and I think Hawk was missing this), he was tired of guys throwing inside and missing: threatening his own hitters' health. His point was (at least should have been): don't throw inside if you don't know how/aren't good enough to.

Throwing at someone doesn't always have to be in retaliation for opposing teams intentionally throwing at you, it can be to set a tone/the standard for how the game should be being played. If it's not being played the right way (i.e. the health of your players is being jeopardized because of the lack of skill of the opposing teams), a message sometimes needs to be sent.

Taliesinrk
08-12-2009, 09:43 AM
I think the other piece of **** you're referring to was either Robert Fick or Dean Palmer. Man, many of the players on the Tigers acted like a bunch of thugs that day.

ROBERT FICK!!! THANK YOU! That was going to drive me crazy and I was too lazy to look it up. What a pathetic excuse for a man.

I didn't remember Dean Palmer doing anything... what'd he do? I always had the impression he was rather stand-up (at least on the field).

WhiteSox1989
08-12-2009, 09:53 AM
After watching it multiple times I really don't think Porcello threw at him on purpose.

I don't know, I could be wrong though. "Youk" is a douche.

thedudeabides
08-12-2009, 09:53 AM
I think the other piece of **** you're referring to was either Robert Fick or Dean Palmer. Man, many of the players on the Tigers acted like a bunch of thugs that day.

I believe it was Fick. He was also the one acting like a professional wrestler, screaming at the crowd, while flipping them off, as they stood there throwing beer on him. It was the most classless thing I've ever seen on a baseball field, and the most significant thing he ever did in a MLB uniform.

jdm2662
08-12-2009, 09:53 AM
After watching it multiple times I really don't think Porcello threw at him on purpose.

I don't know, I could be wrong though. "Youk" is a douche.

I think that is something we all can agree on.

Oblong
08-12-2009, 09:55 AM
I believe it was Fick. He was also the one acting like a professional wrestler, screaming at the crowd, while flipping them off, as they stood there throwing beer on him. It was the most classless thing I've ever seen on a baseball field, and the most significant thing he ever did in a MLB uniform.

He had the final hit at Tiger Stadium, a grand slam in the bottom of the 8th inning.

But that's as far as I willl defend him. I was embarassed that day. Fick's a douche. He was a douche in high school, college, as a pro. My cousin is an umpire in southern CA and has done games for pretty much anybody to come out of the area, HS and college. Fick was notorious for whining about calls.

thedudeabides
08-12-2009, 10:02 AM
He had the final hit at Tiger Stadium, a grand slam in the bottom of the 8th inning.

But that's as far as I willl defend him. I was embarassed that day. Fick's a douche. He was a douche in high school, college, as a pro. My cousin is an umpire in southern CA and has done games for pretty much anybody to come out of the area, HS and college. Fick was notorious for whining about calls.

Well, there's that. :D:

I feel sorry for Tiger fans that he has to be the one you'll see on those highlights.

Oblong
08-12-2009, 10:07 AM
Well, there's that. :D:

I feel sorry for Tiger fans that he has to be the one you'll see on those highlights.

It does stink that when we think of that great day, the closing of the stadium, we're left with memories of guys like Karim Garcia, Luis Polonia, Matt Anderson, Robert Fick, Gregg Jefferies. The good players we had were traded that off season. Brad Ausmus, Frank Catallanato, Francisco COrdero, Gabe Kapler. But no matter what else happens in franchise history, that day will rank in the top 5 for anybody who was there.

Taliesinrk
08-12-2009, 10:23 AM
I believe it was Fick. He was also the one acting like a professional wrestler, screaming at the crowd, while flipping them off, as they stood there throwing beer on him. It was the most classless thing I've ever seen on a baseball field, and the most significant thing he ever did in a MLB uniform.

Well put and succinct. I agree. Was it he who was cleating people? I feel like I remember one of the Tigers kicking people on the ground... and maybe another who had a leaping kick? Did I just make that stuff up?

It does stink that when we think of that great day, the closing of the stadium, we're left with memories of guys like Karim Garcia, Luis Polonia, Matt Anderson, Robert Fick, Gregg Jefferies. The good players we had were traded that off season. Brad Ausmus, Frank Catallanato, Francisco COrdero, Gabe Kapler. But no matter what else happens in franchise history, that day will rank in the top 5 for anybody who was there.

What was the deal with him, and why is he so disliked? I remember he was the one that got into it in the BP in Boston with the security guards/fans/whomever else. And I explicitly remember Pedro's 'Sunday Conversation' with Peter Gammons talking about how there are Yankees that he respects and that are class... and then there are guys like Garcia.

I met Garcia the week the story aired, and someone asked him what he thought of the comments. His response was something along the lines of that Pedro could say what he wanted, but at the end of the day he went home with a ring and that Pedro didn't. Other than that (which was more funny at the time, than mean), he seemed to be a really nice guy... went out of his way to talk with my group.

thedudeabides
08-12-2009, 10:41 AM
Well put and succinct. I agree. Was it he who was cleating people? I feel like I remember one of the Tigers kicking people on the ground... and maybe another who had a leaping kick? Did I just make that stuff up?

.

I remember something along those lines. I think Fick was the one who blindsided Foulke, total sucker punch. It's been a long time since I've seen it, so my memory is a little clouded.

VeeckAsInWreck
08-12-2009, 10:59 AM
Here's the video (http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=6053903) for those who haven't seen it yet. Porcello didn't look too brave running away from Youk like that.

Watching the video, I feel sorry for Terry Francona having to smell Jim Leyland's cigarette breath.

jabrch
08-12-2009, 11:02 AM
I remember something along those lines. I think Fick was the one who blindsided Foulke, total sucker punch. It's been a long time since I've seen it, so my memory is a little clouded.

That DBag also did a thomahawk chop on Eric Karros trying to beat out a ball. He was interviewed and said that he didn't know what happend - but was trying to leg out a hit. When it was clear that nobody bought his crap, he said something like...I don't give ****. You do what you do to win.

Fick is an asshat. He's Mr. Overly Competitive Touch Football Game Player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgnS9bmP_qw

Dignity is Overrated Robert Fick.

(How do you embed a You Tube video into a post?)

Taliesinrk
08-12-2009, 11:03 AM
I remember something along those lines. I think Fick was the one who blindsided Foulke, total sucker punch. It's been a long time since I've seen it, so my memory is a little clouded.

Yeah... same with me. I also remember someone doing something classless to Carlos Lee. All I know is that after that moment I knew that if Higginson or Fick were picked up by the Sox, I'd be writing a letter to the Sox explaining how I wouldn't be paying my money to come support those ass-clowns.

jabrch
08-12-2009, 11:03 AM
Here's the video (http://mlb.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?content_id=6053903) for those who haven't seen it yet. Porcello didn't look too brave running away from Youk like that.


He was also an idiot for running towards the wrong dugout, and not for running towards Brandon Inge at 3B - according to Kruk and Young on MLB Network. But Youk was a douche for throwing a helmet at him...that's bush.

gobears1987
08-12-2009, 11:04 AM
That fight was pretty lame. Porcello just directed Youk's momentum. It's a simple judo throw.

I will say it was sort of funny seeing Gene Lamont in the middle of the mob. That brought back memories of Robin and Nolan. The only difference is that Lamont (who was Nolan's age) had to be held back because he wanted to fight him.


Youkilis is still the only player on the Red Sox that I actually like.

Eddo144
08-12-2009, 01:01 PM
It's just that when I read comments like yours and the one you quoted, they read like the statheads talking about baseball who have apparently never played or been on a team or interacted with other people to understand human nature (1/2 teal there). It's not JUST a numbers game. Humans play these games and there are intangible factors. It's not as simple as hit batter = baserunner = higher probability of scoring runs --> more runs = more likely to win = more likely to go to playoffs = more likely to win world series. Throwing at hitters/ retaliating certainly makes sense if the situation warrants.
You make some good points, and I did gloss over the injury factor and whatnot, but this is just offensive.

Yes, I read a lot about stats. And, shocker, I've played baseball most of my life. If I had the time now, I would look into adult leagues, as softball and wiffle ball are just not enough.

You're damn right there are human factors involved. However, a team will come together just by being together often. Using the 2000 Sox as an example, we'll never know if the team would have gelled without the brawl, which was in April.

Retaliating isn't necessarily a bad thing though; getting suspended for it is. If you do it subtly enough, or without having a warning issued prior, then I don't mind it. But, in the Red Sox' case, they'll now be without their best hitter for at least a few games, in the middle of a pennant race. That offsets any benefit of him showing his teammates he has their back, in my eyes.

Eddo144
08-12-2009, 01:26 PM
Let me elaborate a bit on my last post.

Of all the teams I've played on, I've only had one experience with an on-field skirmish. It was towards the end of a season, and we were in a close fight for first place. One of our pitchers, who was probably our best all-around player as well, felt that the opposing pitcher tagged him too hard on a weak groundout towards first, and the two got in a bit of a fight.

Both were suspended for a game. This helped cost us first place.

Additionally, our pitcher re-aggravated a hip injury in the process. This caused him to miss our first playoff game, which we lost, ending our season.

Now, I can see how certain fights may help a team come together. I've been on a team where we became a bit closer due to our hatred and mocking of an opposing player, but we were already very close, having been together for three years already at that point.

My point is that fights and retaliation can cause as much bad as they can good, and a lot of times, the best decision is to be the bigger man and just take your base, and get back at them in a different way.

Oblong
08-12-2009, 03:56 PM
Porcello and Youkilis were both suspended 5 games. They got fined as well.

Obviously I am not objective so this pisses me off. What has to be understood is that the umps issued NO WARNINGS in this game. Porcello hit one batter. Yes he pitched inside to Martinez earlier in the game but pitching inside is not a crime.

The umps screwed the pooch on this one and MLB is covering for them. I understand it's not as big of a suspension for a starter since he theoretically only misses one start.

gobears1987
08-12-2009, 04:01 PM
Porcello and Youkilis were both suspended 5 games. They got fined as well.

Obviously I am not objective so this pisses me off. What has to be understood is that the umps issued NO WARNINGS in this game. Porcello hit one batter. Yes he pitched inside to Martinez earlier in the game but pitching inside is not a crime.

The umps screwed the pooch on this one and MLB is covering for them. I understand it's not as big of a suspension for a starter since he theoretically only misses one start.
I'd say that a 5 game suspension for a pitcher is nothing. He gets one start pushed back. It's bigger for Youkilis, trust me. Youkilis probably should have a longer one still.

Oblong
08-12-2009, 04:33 PM
I just don't like the idea that pitcher hits a guy with no warnings issued and gets suspended for it. If Youkilis doesn't charge the mound does Porcello get ejected and/or suspended? If they can say "Yes he would have." then they'd have a point.

If you are facing a good pitcher and he hits you, charge the mound. Take him out of the game.

thedudeabides
08-12-2009, 04:41 PM
I just don't like the idea that pitcher hits a guy with no warnings issued and gets suspended for it. If Youkilis doesn't charge the mound does Porcello get ejected and/or suspended? If they can say "Yes he would have." then they'd have a point.

If you are facing a good pitcher and he hits you, charge the mound. Take him out of the game.

That's why they give the 5 game suspension to a pitcher. It moves their start day back one game. It's essentially a fine. Also, he's not completely innocent in this, and Youk got the much harsher penalty.

The league talks to the umpires in this situation, and maybe the ump told him he would have ejected or warned him.

Oblong
08-12-2009, 04:47 PM
But by bringing up the Martinez issue in their ruling they only highlight the deficiency of the umps. Why didn't they warn anybody after that? They can't not issue a warning then use the "high tensions" from previous incidents as an excuse for a harsher ruling. If tensions were high then issue a warning.

It's just the principle that a guy not only charges the mound, but he throws his helmet at the pitcher. That should have been 10 games. 5 for each offense.

Keith Law said the umps just caved into the emotion of the crowd and I believe him. Porcello shouldn't have even been ejected last night.

thedudeabides
08-12-2009, 04:55 PM
But by bringing up the Martinez issue in their ruling they only highlight the deficiency of the umps. Why didn't they warn anybody after that? They can't not issue a warning then use the "high tensions" from previous incidents as an excuse for a harsher ruling. If tensions were high then issue a warning.

It's just the principle that a guy not only charges the mound, but he throws his helmet at the pitcher. That should have been 10 games. 5 for each offense.

Keith Law said the umps just caved into the emotion of the crowd and I believe him. Porcello shouldn't have even been ejected last night.

I wholeheartedly agree. I don't think the umps handle this well anymore. Pitchers get ejected without warning more than they should, and if they are involved in a fight they are going to get tossed, and most likely suspended.

In 2005 Buehrle had a streak of 49 straight games of pitching 6 innings or more. It ended when Brian Gorman tossed him for hitting B.J. Surhoff. A.J. had been hit earlier in the game, but there were no warnings issued. You may remember Hawk's epic rant.

Maybe Porcello shouldn't have been suspended, but they take the view that if he didn't hit the player, the incident wouldn't have happened. Then they give him a slap on the wrist. Of course, if the umps had a handle on thie situation earlier, none of this would have happened, or the suspensions would be more justified.

gobears1987
08-12-2009, 05:05 PM
I wholeheartedly agree. I don't think the umps handle this well anymore. Pitchers get ejected without warning more than they should, and if they are involved in a fight they are going to get tossed, and most likely suspended.

In 2005 Buehrle had a streak of 49 straight games of pitching 6 innings or more. It ended when Brian Gorman tossed him for hitting B.J. Surhoff. A.J. had been hit earlier in the game, but there were no warnings issued. You may remember Hawk's epic rant.

Maybe Porcello shouldn't have been suspended, but they take the view that if he didn't hit the player, the incident wouldn't have happened. Then they give him a slap on the wrist. Of course, if the umps had a handle on thie situation earlier, none of this would have happened, or the suspensions would be more justified.

"What are you doing Brian Gorman! Are you nuts! Are you NUTS! You have to be!!!" - hawk

BTW, that same ****er called a crap zone on Friday and then sent TCQ back to the plate after a HBP saying he swung on Saturday.

Goose
08-12-2009, 05:25 PM
What? No. False. Erroneous on both accounts. Getting hit as a batter is not always a "good" thing. And retailiation makes sense on multiple levels:

1. If you allow the other team to throw inside on you (and subsequently hit your players) it expands the plate for the opposing pitchers, making hitting more difficult for you. Believe me... when some dude is touching 93 and puts one right underneath my hands, I'm not covering the outside slider... but that's just me. The way you combat that is by making sure your pitchers make it clear that throwing at/near/too close to your hitters will not be tolerated (and since hand-written notes aren't the best way to send the message), your pitchers must throw inside/AT the opposing hitters if the situation dictates.

2. By throwing in retaliation you don't end up with 5 guys hit in 1-2 days (see: Indians series), or whatever the number was - it was ridiculous. It doesn't matter if they meant to. By letting the other team know you may hurt their players, I guarantee their pitchers think twice about throwing in... not only saving potential future injuries to your hitters, but also making your hitters better at the plate by allowing them to not have the thought that they may get ear-holed the next pitch. This makes them more effective because they cover the plate better and can do things like dive over it to really hit how they want.

3. It builds a stronger team when you know a guy with the same uniform as you is willing to put himself (and health) on the line to stand up for you. As dumb as I think it was for Procello to throw at hitters in two consecutive innings, you don't think Cabrera and company are gonna be on their bellies next time a grounder is hit in the hole. Not saying that they're not trying for their other pitchers, but I guarantee they're giving that extra 10% trying to help out a 20-year old fresh out of the draft, without a long-term lucrative contract (that maybe incorrect because I think he was a big name and Boras' client), that put his health, season, and career (perhaps overexagerated) on the line to defend a teammate. What if Youkilis takes him down there and he lands awkwardly on his shoulder and tears it up? His career could have ended and (granted that's pretty extreme, but still) I guarantee that helps chemistry... at least with the other 8/9 (w/ DH) guys on the field respecting Porcello - you can't argue that.

I guess I really got away from my numbered points and it just turned into typing.. but you get the point.

It's just that when I read comments like yours and the one you quoted, they read like the statheads talking about baseball who have apparently never played or been on a team or interacted with other people to understand human nature (1/2 teal there). It's not JUST a numbers game. Humans play these games and there are intangible factors. It's not as simple as hit batter = baserunner = higher probability of scoring runs --> more runs = more likely to win = more likely to go to playoffs = more likely to win world series. Throwing at hitters/ retaliating certainly makes sense if the situation warrants.

:thumbsup: What is the correct answer, Alex?

Taliesinrk
08-12-2009, 08:02 PM
You make some good points, and I did gloss over the injury factor and whatnot, but this is just offensive.

Yes, I read a lot about stats. And, shocker, I've played baseball most of my life. If I had the time now, I would look into adult leagues, as softball and wiffle ball are just not enough.

You're damn right there are human factors involved. However, a team will come together just by being together often. Using the 2000 Sox as an example, we'll never know if the team would have gelled without the brawl, which was in April.

Retaliating isn't necessarily a bad thing though; getting suspended for it is. If you do it subtly enough, or without having a warning issued prior, then I don't mind it. But, in the Red Sox' case, they'll now be without their best hitter for at least a few games, in the middle of a pennant race. That offsets any benefit of him showing his teammates he has their back, in my eyes.

While I don't completely agree with your points, I didn't mean for the last part to be offensive. Really, it had nothing to do with you - just that it seemed like a couple of arguments before (including yours that I quoted) seemed to only consider a statistical argument. Most of the last part of that rant wasn't directed at you... rather statheads in general (which I really had no idea if you were or not).

malbert346
08-12-2009, 08:24 PM
While I don't completely agree with your points, I didn't mean for the last part to be offensive. Really, it had nothing to do with you - just that it seemed like a couple of arguments before (including yours that I quoted) seemed to only consider a statistical argument. Most of the last part of that rant wasn't directed at you... rather statheads in general (which I really had no idea if you were or not).

I know I've already disagreed with you in another thread, but please let me play Devil's Advocate again.

If you're on a team that gets into a fight in April, and you feel that it brings the team together, how much of an effect would that realistically have when you get to August or September? Can you really feel that a fight dictates how a team plays over the course 5 months? If the team wins a whole bunch of games during that time, wouldn't it be because they're just really really good at baseball? I just don't see how a fight can spur a run significant enough to affect an entire season.

To sum up, does a 96 win team look back at the end of the year and say, "Yeah, that fight in April is where it all started."

I don't see it happening. My guess is they would point to their awesome rotation, mashing offense, or shutdown bullpen, whichever they possess.