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View Full Version : Rios Claimed Part II


voodoochile
08-10-2009, 01:50 PM
Part I (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=114435)

Continue...

hi im skot
08-10-2009, 01:51 PM
I honestly think we should start debating what number Rios will wear. No way Toronto does not dump that contract on the Sox. I hope Kenny did not just throw in a bluff move for Rios.

So will Bacon give up #15 for Rios? What do you guys think?

Hope not; a lot of us just ordered Beckham jerseys...

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 01:54 PM
If the Jays were just waiting to dump him, wouldn't it have already happened? If not, then they would have to be discussing sending $$$ for prospects, right? What else would be going on? It's really not ridiculous to think the two sides are looking at the possibility. It doesn't have to be "garbage prospects" or Josh Fields... but I'm willing to bet that if it's the Sox that claimed him, and the Jays haven't just immediately pulled him back, then they're discussing other players and possible financial contributions from the Jays toward Rios' contract. It makes perfect sense. I don't know why you guys are making it sound so outlandish....

dwalteroo
08-10-2009, 01:54 PM
Agreed. I don't see how Toronto doesn't make the move and let the Sox have him outright. If you are talking straight up value, the chance to get out of that contract and not have to pay anything isn't going to come by again.

Noneck
08-10-2009, 01:58 PM
BadBobby,

I meant "kinda white flaggish". You can't give up anything that can help this year. Linebrink would be a dump for the future and that would be the only reason he would be included in a Rios deal.

BadBobbyJenks
08-10-2009, 01:59 PM
Hope not; a lot of us just ordered Beckham jerseys...

:o: Never though about this.

This has been pointed out many times now and while it's misleading (because both Rios' and Peavy's contracts are HEAVILY back-loaded) we'll go with it anyway, because IMO, regardless of the fact that in a few years both will make over $14 mil, it's still poor logic. It's like saying my payroll is $100 mil. I'm making a trade with another team in which I give up $20 mil in contracts for their $20 mil in contracts. Had I thrown in another player or two which will not significantly impact the major league team for at least a year or two, I could have gotten them to throw in $5 mil. It would be stupid for me to say I didn't explore the extra prospects because the payroll would have stayed the same. I should consider all possibilities because if I can get the extra $5 mil., I'd turn it around an make other upgrades (as I've stated before - in the Sox' case: BP and 5th starter).I'm not saying it would definitely be good for the Sox to do.. I'm saying it would be stupid to not consider.

And Thome's contract was backloaded when we acquired it, but Philadelphia picked up a lot if it. Most big contracts are. The Salary is not a concern next season and we are actually starting to get younger so going forward, I am not worried about payroll.

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 01:59 PM
Agreed. I don't see how Toronto doesn't make the move and let the Sox have him outright. If you are talking straight up value, the chance to get out of that contract and not have to pay anything isn't going to come by again.

But maybe Toronto doesn't want to just "get out of that contract". Maybe they actually like some of the Sox' prospects... :o:... maybe they want to actually try to save some little bit of face they may have left by not making it a complete salary dump (not sure who they'd fool.. but whatever). I mean spiffie it up all you want, but letting a 2-time All-Star go for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING does not look good. Rios is a bad contract (for his performance this year), but he's not hitting .190 with 4 HRs.

BadBobbyJenks
08-10-2009, 02:00 PM
If the Jays were just waiting to dump him, wouldn't it have already happened? If not, then they would have to be discussing sending $$$ for prospects, right? What else would be going on? It's really not ridiculous to think the two sides are looking at the possibility. It doesn't have to be "garbage prospects" or Josh Fields... but I'm willing to bet that if it's the Sox that claimed him, and the Jays haven't just immediately pulled him back, then they're discussing other players and possible financial contributions from the Jays toward Rios' contract. It makes perfect sense. I don't know why you guys are making it sound so outlandish....

I am sure the J.P and KW are playing a game of chicken. If you are the Jays, why would you just hand Rios over without even exploring what Kenny is willing to trade.

The Jays have Vernon Wells in Center and two very good young players to play the corners in Lind and Snyder. Rios or Wells does not fit into the future so any way to get rid of one of those contracts is a good decision.

Stoky44
08-10-2009, 02:00 PM
BadBobby,

I said "kinda white flaggish". You can't give up anything that can help this year. Linebrink would be a dump for the future and that would be the only reason he would be included in a Rios deal.

It is debatable as to what "anything that can help us this year" We traded Richard for Peavy, but RIchard could have helped us as 5th starter. Broadway could help us in the pen to but we got Castro.

KRS1
08-10-2009, 02:01 PM
BadBobby,

I meant "kinda white flaggish". You can't give up anything that can help this year. Linebrink would be a dump for the future and that would be the only reason he would be included in a Rios deal.

Guys, this is a pointless argument as we can't trade anyone off the 40-man unless they completely cleared waivers. Josh Fields for all his suck still would not clear them, and neither would Linebrink.

esbrechtel
08-10-2009, 02:01 PM
Hope not; a lot of us just ordered Beckham jerseys...

ha....that would suck...mine is supposed to ship tomorrow :o:

Stoky44
08-10-2009, 02:03 PM
:o: Never though about this.



And Thome's contract was backloaded when we acquired it, but Philadelphia picked up a lot if it. Most big contracts are. The Salary is not a concern next season and we are actually starting to get younger so going forward, I am not worried about payroll.

Philly had to pick up some of the money to make the deal happen. Much like Toronto would have had to pick up some of the contract if this were a trade. But its a waiver claim, so no need to pick it up. I think comparing Rios to Thome is apples to oranges.

Stoky44
08-10-2009, 02:04 PM
Guys, this is a pointless argument as we can't trade anyone off the 40-man unless they completely cleared waivers. Josh Fields for all his suck still would not clear them, and neither would Linebrink.

Wow great point. Forgot about that. So nobody on our 40 man is going anywhere.

Noneck
08-10-2009, 02:04 PM
It is debatable as to what "anything that can help us this year" We traded Richard for Peavy, but RIchard could have helped us as 5th starter. Broadway could help us in the pen to but we got Castro.

With Peavy the Sox had no other choice in order to get him. The Linebrink senerio would be a dump and there would be many other choices. Castro was many moons ago and is not the same situation.

BadBobbyJenks
08-10-2009, 02:05 PM
Philly had to pick up some of the money to make the deal happen. Much like Toronto would have had to pick up some of the contract if this were a trade. But its a waiver claim, so no need to pick it up. I think comparing Rios to Thome is apples to oranges.

It wasn't really comparing the two, just pointing out how often contracts are backloaded.

Stoky44
08-10-2009, 02:06 PM
It wasn't really comparing the two, just pointing out how often contracts are backloaded.

gotcha my bad, me can't read so good

dwalteroo
08-10-2009, 02:06 PM
But maybe Toronto doesn't want to just "get out of that contract". Maybe they actually like some of the Sox' prospects... :o:... maybe they want to actually try to save some little bit of face they may have left by not making it a complete salary dump (not sure who they'd fool.. but whatever). I mean spiffie it up all you want, but letting a 2-time All-Star go for ABSOLUTELY NOTHING does not look good. Rios is a bad contract (for his performance this year), but he's not hitting .190 with 4 HRs.

I don't disagree that the Jays lose face on the deal, absolutely. But whom do they want...and why? Say the Sox give up Fields or Danks or another prospect (or combo thereof), Toronto has to eat some salary. The whole point of making the move in the first place is because of that contract.

I'm not disagreeing that it's a bind for Ricciardi to be in, but everyone realizes why he's doing what he's doing. Say Fields is a bust in Toronto...is that a better move?

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 02:06 PM
And Thome's contract was backloaded when we acquired it, but Philadelphia picked up a lot if it. Most big contracts are. The Salary is not a concern next season and we are actually starting to get younger so going forward, I am not worried about payroll.

I need a brick wall to start beating my head against. Just because you aren't worried about future payroll doesn't mean that the Sox shouldn't try for the best deal possible. Just because the Sox can field a winning team for $95 mil. (this is an example, not an exact number) doesn't mean they couldn't field a better team for $98 mil.

You don't think salaries aren't a consideration for next season? I bet KW does. What if he chooses to go to FA to fill a 5th starter need. I realize how contracts work. I don't care what the Phillies picked-up... it has no relevance to our discussion. The point was that it's misleading and reckless thinking to say that getting money off of Rios' contract shouldn't be a consideration for KW because he and Peavy cost the same (right now) as Contreras and Thome. Especially considering the fact that JC and JT's contracts are expiring and Rios' and Peavy's contracts are only increasing (significantly, mind you).

Stoky44
08-10-2009, 02:09 PM
I don't disagree that the Jays lose face on the deal, absolutely. But whom do they want...and why? Say the Sox give up Fields or Danks or another prospect (or combo thereof), Toronto has to eat some salary. The whole point of making the move in the first place is because of that contract.

I'm not disagreeing that it's a bind for Ricciardi to be in, but everyone realizes why he's doing what he's doing. Say Fields is a bust in Toronto...is that a better move?

Problem is Fields can't be traded, as someone already stated because he would need to clear waivers, since he is on the 40 man roster.

Also means:
No Wise, Nix, Lillibridge, Viciedo, Getz, ARmstrong, Williams, Whisler, Torres, Santeliz, MArquez, HArrell, Egbert, Carrasco, Nunez and the rest including Linebrink

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 02:09 PM
Say Fields is a bust in Toronto...is that a better move?

I don't know if it's better or not... I do know that it'd be cheaper.

dwalteroo
08-10-2009, 02:11 PM
Problem is Fields can't be traded, as someone already stated because he would need to clear waivers, since he is on the 40 man roster.

My bad - good point.

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 02:11 PM
Problem is Fields can't be traded, as someone already stated because he would need to clear waivers, since he is on the 40 man roster.

I read that too. Could someone comment on how common it is for players to pass through this time of year? I mean is it really outlandish to wonder if guys off of our 40-man have already cleared?

dwalteroo
08-10-2009, 02:15 PM
I think it's pretty common for a large number of players to be put on waivers and clear. I think the Rios situation is the exception to the rule. (I could be totally wrong).

whitesoxfan
08-10-2009, 02:15 PM
I read that too. Could someone comment on how common it is for players to pass through this time of year? I mean is it really outlandish to wonder if guys off of our 40-man have already cleared?

It's pretty common. Usually teams put a large chunk of players on waivers just to gauge interest around the league from other teams.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of our players have cleared waivers already.

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 02:16 PM
I think it's pretty common for a large number of players to be put on waivers and clear. I think the Rios situation is the exception to the rule. (I could be totally wrong).

Ok. I half-assumed (but honestly wasn't too sure). I guess the point is that guys off of our 40-man may already have cleared and could be dealt in this deal. KRS1 made that possibility sound nuts, with which I would take issue.

Domeshot17
08-10-2009, 02:19 PM
Guys, this is a pointless argument as we can't trade anyone off the 40-man unless they completely cleared waivers. Josh Fields for all his suck still would not clear them, and neither would Linebrink.

They do not post the lists, but most teams put almost all of their 40 man roster on the waiver wire for September. I would not be shocked if Linebrink Fields Wise etc. have all already cleared.

Also keep in mind its kind of baseball etiquette that you just don't go around claiming guys. Teams like the Royals Pirates etc. won't just claim a Josh Fields. The only time teams tend to claim guys is a situation like this (to put pressure on another team to trade a player) or to block a rival from making a trade.

BadBobbyJenks
08-10-2009, 02:21 PM
I need a brick wall to start beating my head against. Just because you aren't worried about future payroll doesn't mean that the Sox shouldn't try for the best deal possible. Just because the Sox can field a winning team for $95 mil. (this is an example, not an exact number) doesn't mean they couldn't field a better team for $98 mil.

You don't think salaries aren't a consideration for next season? I bet KW does. What if he chooses to go to FA to fill a 5th starter need. I realize how contracts work. I don't care what the Phillies picked-up... it has no relevance to our discussion. The point was that it's misleading and reckless thinking to say that getting money off of Rios' contract shouldn't be a consideration for KW because he and Peavy cost the same (right now) as Contreras and Thome. Especially considering the fact that JC and JT's contracts are expiring and Rios' and Peavy's contracts are only increasing (significantly, mind you).


Yes salaries are a consideration, but next year there is no consideration because it all evens out. We would finally have a real centerfielder and the only thing we would need to figure out is the 5th starter, but it looks like we have a very good cheap option in Charlotte.

We are going to be shedding contracts in the next two years so that is why I am not worried about these two contracts. Paulie will be off after next year as will AJ. Danks and Quentin are just getting into arbitration so I dont see what you are so worried about.

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 02:22 PM
They do not post the lists, but most teams put almost all of their 40 man roster on the waiver wire for September. I would not be shocked if Linebrink Fields Wise etc. have all already cleared.

There's a good one. I hadn't even considered Wise. I read one article from Toronto discussing the fact that they wouldn't be comfortable with any in-house options to replace Rios this season. Wise could certainly fill that roll...

dickallen15
08-10-2009, 02:24 PM
Problem is Fields can't be traded, as someone already stated because he would need to clear waivers, since he is on the 40 man roster.

Also means:
No Wise, Nix, Lillibridge, Viciedo, Getz, ARmstrong, Williams, Whisler, Torres, Santeliz, MArquez, HArrell, Egbert, Carrasco, Nunez and the rest including Linebrink

They only have to clear Oak, Balt. Cleve and KC to go to Toronto assuming Toronto puts in a claim.

35th and Shields
08-10-2009, 02:25 PM
I think it's pretty common for a large number of players to be put on waivers and clear. I think the Rios situation is the exception to the rule. (I could be totally wrong).

It's believed to be in even higher numbers then normal this year due to the economy causing owners to shy away from adding payroll.

dickallen15
08-10-2009, 02:27 PM
They do not post the lists, but most teams put almost all of their 40 man roster on the waiver wire for September. I would not be shocked if Linebrink Fields Wise etc. have all already cleared.

Also keep in mind its kind of baseball etiquette that you just don't go around claiming guys. Teams like the Royals Pirates etc. won't just claim a Josh Fields. The only time teams tend to claim guys is a situation like this (to put pressure on another team to trade a player) or to block a rival from making a trade.

Supposedly TB has claimed a ton of guys and are having some sleepless nights because if they somehow were awarded them all, they would have to waive about 50 guys.

Steve Phillips claimed over 200 guys one year with the Mets. He could have been stuck with them all and the Mets might have gone bankrupt. The lesser teams aren't going to block, but for the contending teams, its very reasonable to block.

dickallen15
08-10-2009, 02:28 PM
Robinson Cano cleared, so its possible anyone will. Of course, every GM knows Cano is going nowhere.

Domeshot17
08-10-2009, 02:29 PM
Supposedly TB has claimed a ton of guys and are having some sleepless nights because if they somehow were awarded them all, they would have to waive about 50 guys.

Steve Phillips claimed over 200 guys one year with the Mets. He could have been stuck with them all and the Mets might have gone bankrupt. The lesser teams aren't going to block, but for the contending teams, its very reasonable to block.


Right but Tampa is claiming to block Boston and New York, their claim would mean nothing if Toronto claimed our guys.

TDog
08-10-2009, 02:41 PM
...

Also keep in mind its kind of baseball etiquette that you just don't go around claiming guys. Teams like the Royals Pirates etc. won't just claim a Josh Fields. The only time teams tend to claim guys is a situation like this (to put pressure on another team to trade a player) or to block a rival from making a trade.

I believe one of the first things Rollie Hemond did as the white Sox general manager, after hiring Chick Tanner, was to claim reliever Steve Hamilton on irrevocable waivers. Hamilton was angry. He was going from the non-contending Yankees to a contender. The White Sox were dead lost and on their way to finishing 50 games out of first. Hamilton pitched in three games for the Sox and was vocal in his anger at the franchise before he was traded to the Giants in spring training of 1971.

That might have been the last thing Stu Holcomb did in the GM postiion before he moved to another front office postiion and the Sox brought in Hemond. The dates are so close.

Of course, in those days you still had the reserve clause. Claiming Hamilton was sill considered bad form, but if you come into your first major league job looking to build a winner from the worst team in baseball, you might want to prove that you're not going to be pushed around.

These days, there is no way the teams wallowing in their lost seasons would have the money to claim Rios. the waivers are probably not irrevocable anyway.

UofCSoxFan
08-10-2009, 02:42 PM
Guys, this is a pointless argument as we can't trade anyone off the 40-man unless they completely cleared waivers. Josh Fields for all his suck still would not clear them, and neither would Linebrink.

Wow great point. Forgot about that. So nobody on our 40 man is going anywhere.

While the 40 man thing is true, let's keep in mind the player would only have to clear waivers to the Blue Jays. The player would not have to clear anyone in the AL with a better record than the Jays or anyone in the NL.

That is only, in order, KC, Baltimore, Cleveland, Oakland. That's it. I don't see any of these teams claiming a guy like Linebrink, with his salary and few making any claims, unless its for a prospect on our 40 man.

Minnesota is currently only a half game in front of the Jays so this could change quickly, making a trade much more difficult.

A waiver trade could be done when you look at it this way.

That being said the player going back would either have to be cheap and/or good. Linebrink sucks. He's overpaid even more than Rios so the Jays would be nuts to take him back.

UofCSoxFan
08-10-2009, 02:47 PM
Also keep in mind its kind of baseball etiquette that you just don't go around claiming guys. Teams like the Royals Pirates etc. won't just claim a Josh Fields. The only time teams tend to claim guys is a situation like this (to put pressure on another team to trade a player) or to block a rival from making a trade.

The etiquette thing is a good point but at the same time a team like the Indians (I'll ignore the Pirates since Fields wouldn't have to pass them as they are in the NL and the Royals since they are set at the corner IF spots) could actually claim Fields, not to block a trade, but because it may fill a need in the future. Teams don't make claims to block when they are out of it but they are still competition and still are able to make moves to better their team in the future.

I've also heard from many insiders that the etiquette thing is ignored more and more, like a lot of baseball's unwritten rules.

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 02:47 PM
Yes salaries are a consideration, but next year there is no consideration because it all evens out. We would finally have a real centerfielder and the only thing we would need to figure out is the 5th starter, but it looks like we have a very good cheap option in Charlotte.

We are going to be shedding contracts in the next two years so that is why I am not worried about these two contracts. Paulie will be off after next year as will AJ. Danks and Quentin are just getting into arbitration so I dont see what you are so worried about.

I'm worried because I guarantee it's tough every year. What are the Sox going to do to replace/re-sign Jenks? Who will produce like Paulie at a reasonable price-tag (same with A.J.). I hope you're not suggesting they'll happily take no raise (or even worse we could just consider their contracts gone). Danks and Quentin won't warrant raises? Has KW definitely decided to get rid of Thome? Will Dye not want a raise? When's Thornton off the books? One would think he's earned more $$$. Will Dotel and Linebrink's replacements be free? Or should the Sox spend more than the minimum on MLB set-up men to be a contender? I hope Chicago's newly anointed 5th starter isn't the one that couldn't get through 4 IP vs. the Indians (for the record, he could be good... just saying: are we SURE?). Will the Sox want to pull a Longoria-type deal with Beckham? Will they consider keeping Kotsay (I think they would have to give him money for that). What if there's an injury? Heaven forbid KW would want to trade for a good player.

This is ridiculous. I'm saying that money is always a consideration and this all started when I discussed the fact that KW should be talking to (not necessarily going through with) Toronto kicking back $$$ for prospects/players from the Sox. In response, you posted that "Peavy + Rios = Contreras + Thome", implying that... well who really knows what it was implying - but clearly you were indicating that my comment that KW should be looking into salary relief wasn't warranted. As I've gone over numerous times, and provided numerous examples for, plus the above reasons are jusitfication as to why KW must at least explore the possibility and consider payroll ramifications.

UofCSoxFan
08-10-2009, 02:49 PM
BadBobby,

I meant "kinda white flaggish". You can't give up anything that can help this year. Linebrink would be a dump for the future and that would be the only reason he would be included in a Rios deal.

This is really poor reasoning. By your definition any trade of a major league player is "white flaggish."

Linebrink is like our 5th option out of the pen. He gave up about 14 doubles on Sunday. He's bad. He's replaceable. Hell I'd trade Dye or Beckham for Pujols, but by your definition that'd be a white flag also since those guys could help our team and aren't in the minors.

DeWayne Wise for Hanley Ramierez...white flag. Wise can help this team as a late inning sub/pinch runner.

dickallen15
08-10-2009, 02:51 PM
I'm worried because I guarantee it's tough every year. What are the Sox going to do to replace/re-sign Jenks? Who will produce like Paulie at a reasonable price-tag (same with A.J.). I hope you're not suggesting they'll happily take no raise (or even worse we could just consider their contracts gone). Danks and Quentin won't warrant raises? Has KW definitely decided to get rid of Thome? Will Dye not want a raise? When's Thornton off the books? One would think he's earned more $$$. Will Dotel and Linebrink's replacements be free? Or should the Sox spend more than the minimum on MLB set-up men to be a contender? I hope Chicago's newly anointed 5th starter isn't the one that couldn't get through 4 IP vs. the Indians (for the record, he could be good... just saying: are we SURE?). Will the Sox want to pull a Longoria-type deal with Beckham? Will they consider keeping Kotsay (I think they would have to give him money for that). What if there's an injury? Heaven forbid KW would want to trade for a good player.

This is ridiculous. I'm saying that money is always a consideration and this all started when I discussed the fact that KW should be talking to (not necessarily going through with) Toronto kicking back $$$ for prospects/players from the Sox. In response, you posted that "Peavy + Rios = Contreras + Thome", implying that... well who really knows what it was implying - but clearly you were indicating that my comment that KW should be looking into salary relief wasn't warranted. As I've gone over numerous times, and provided numerous examples for, plus the above reasons are jusitfication as to why KW must at least explore the possibility and consider payroll ramifications.

KW is currently on the hook for all of Rios' contract if he claimed him and Toronto wants salary relief. AA prospects aren't worth $10 million. Toronto is not going to provide any salary relief to KW to take Rios. Get it out of your head. As far as next season, Dye, Thome, Dotel, Contreras, MacDougal, Viciedo's $5.3 million bonus, are all off the books. That's close to $50 million. I also doubt Jenks will be back at his arb figure. There's plenty of money.

UofCSoxFan
08-10-2009, 02:55 PM
I'm worried because I guarantee it's tough every year. What are the Sox going to do to replace/re-sign Jenks? Who will produce like Paulie at a reasonable price-tag (same with A.J.). I hope you're not suggesting they'll happily take no raise (or even worse we could just consider their contracts gone). Danks and Quentin won't warrant raises? Has KW definitely decided to get rid of Thome? Will Dye not want a raise? When's Thornton off the books? One would think he's earned more $$$. Will Dotel and Linebrink's replacements be free? Or should the Sox spend more than the minimum on MLB set-up men to be a contender? I hope Chicago's newly anointed 5th starter isn't the one that couldn't get through 4 IP vs. the Indians (for the record, he could be good... just saying: are we SURE?). Will the Sox want to pull a Longoria-type deal with Beckham? Will they consider keeping Kotsay (I think they would have to give him money for that). What if there's an injury? Heaven forbid KW would want to trade for a good player.

This is ridiculous. I'm saying that money is always a consideration and this all started when I discussed the fact that KW should be talking to (not necessarily going through with) Toronto kicking back $$$ for prospects/players from the Sox. In response, you posted that "Peavy + Rios = Contreras + Thome", implying that... well who really knows what it was implying - but clearly you were indicating that my comment that KW should be looking into salary relief wasn't warranted. As I've gone over numerous times, and provided numerous examples for, plus the above reasons are jusitfication as to why KW must at least explore the possibility and consider payroll ramifications.

Konerko is signed for next year...he needs no raise. As is AJ. If you are talking about 2011, well Tyler Flowers will be here by then and Konerko will likely take a pay cut or be replaced.

It's debatable that Danks will get much more in arbitration but I'll give you he'll get a slight bump. Quentin is hitting .230 with what 8 hr?...how much of raise do you think that warrants? Arbitration is based purely on numbers, not potential. Again, at most he gets a slight bump.

BadBobbyJenks
08-10-2009, 02:58 PM
I'm worried because I guarantee it's tough every year. What are the Sox going to do to replace/re-sign Jenks? Who will produce like Paulie at a reasonable price-tag (same with A.J.). I hope you're not suggesting they'll happily take no raise (or even worse we could just consider their contracts gone). Danks and Quentin won't warrant raises? Has KW definitely decided to get rid of Thome? Will Dye not want a raise? When's Thornton off the books? One would think he's earned more $$$. Will Dotel and Linebrink's replacements be free? Or should the Sox spend more than the minimum on MLB set-up men to be a contender? I hope Chicago's newly anointed 5th starter isn't the one that couldn't get through 4 IP vs. the Indians (for the record, he could be good... just saying: are we SURE?). Will the Sox want to pull a Longoria-type deal with Beckham? Will they consider keeping Kotsay (I think they would have to give him money for that). What if there's an injury? Heaven forbid KW would want to trade for a good player.

This is ridiculous. I'm saying that money is always a consideration and this all started when I discussed the fact that KW should be talking to (not necessarily going through with) Toronto kicking back $$$ for prospects/players from the Sox. In response, you posted that "Peavy + Rios = Contreras + Thome", implying that... well who really knows what it was implying - but clearly you were indicating that my comment that KW should be looking into salary relief wasn't warranted. As I've gone over numerous times, and provided numerous examples for, plus the above reasons are jusitfication as to why KW must at least explore the possibility and consider payroll ramifications.

Actually no my argument all along is that Toronto is looking to dump Rios' contract not pick up prospects. But I said I dont think Rios' contract is a problem considering what we have coming off next year. Who said KW should not be looking into payroll ramifications? What I said was I don't believe there are any.

Jenks is arbitration eligible and is not going to get a raise, not sure where that came from.
Tyler Flowers is going to replace AJ.
First base will be interesting, possibly Dayan, possibly we re-sign Konerko, I dont know.
Kotsay makes 1.5 million (we are on the hook for 500k and Boston is paying most of that anyway) and I sincerely doubt we will bring him back.
We already traded for Dotel's replacement in Pena.
Danks and Quentin are just entering their arbitration years and Quentin will not be making much coming off this season.
If Dye asks for a rasie after the team option, then he can try to get it elsewhere.
Just look at this instead:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p4ew-fwu2XT3PAlHMnU8eYQ

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 03:06 PM
KW is currently on the hook for all of Rios' contract if he claimed him and Toronto wants salary relief. AA prospects aren't worth $10 million. Toronto is not going to provide any salary relief to KW to take Rios. Get it out of your head.

Where in the hell did I say AA prospects are worth $10 million. You're putting words in my mouth. BadBobby is implying that I'm being ridiculous in saying KW should consider payroll and explore all options with Toronto in this trade.

I will not get it out of my head... it's in there and it's stuck. It's stuck there because that's where I put rational thoughts... in my head.

I'm not saying this will happen, but it certainly is a possibility and I would put winning money on the fact that KW and Riccardi have considered and weighed their options regarding this possibility (if the Sox are the ones that put the claim in and the Jays didn't automatically pull him back). Not saying this is a good move, but what if KW offers Flowers, Danks and/or Viciedo or any combination of? You don't think the Jays would offer a financial return for them?!?!? That probably won't happen... but maybe KW has a bigger plan for the $$$ to use in the off-season that he thinks is of more value to the club than the aforementioned players. I don't know - I'm not KW, but I do know that he does consider his options.

Zisk77
08-10-2009, 03:14 PM
Wow great point. Forgot about that. So nobody on our 40 man is going anywhere.


I believe Fields could still go as a PTBNL, Linebrink...no.

soxfanreggie
08-10-2009, 03:19 PM
That's a great spreadsheet, similar to what you'd find on the Cot's Baseball Contracts site. Signing Thornton to his contract was one of the best moves we have made recently, IMO. Alexei has the potential to be a huge steal thru 2011 if he stays a starter, but I still love the Thornton deal.

I just wonder if I'll get an ESPN text message when I get off my flight tonight that Rios is now on the White Sox. I sure hope he doesn't take Bacon's number. Then, I'd have to rush to see if I could switch the jersey number on the order I just placed.

LoveYourSuit
08-10-2009, 03:22 PM
I believe Fields could still go as a PTBNL, Linebrink...no.

I would not be surprised if a player or two from the 40 man roster like Fields has already cleared waivers.

Then it's open game for everyone.

BadBobbyJenks
08-10-2009, 03:23 PM
Where in the hell did I say AA prospects are worth $10 million. You're putting words in my mouth. BadBobby is implying that I'm being ridiculous in saying KW should consider payroll and explore all options with Toronto in this trade.



No I did not, so please stop it already. What I did say is I don't think Rios' contract puts us at any disadvantage moving forward. Never have I said KW should take on all contracts and not worry about payroll. Quit being ridiculous.

BadBobbyJenks
08-10-2009, 03:24 PM
That's a great spreadsheet, similar to what you'd find on the Cot's Baseball Contracts site. Signing Thornton to his contract was one of the best moves we have made recently, IMO. Alexei has the potential to be a huge steal thru 2011 if he stays a starter, but I still love the Thornton deal.

I just wonder if I'll get an ESPN text message when I get off my flight tonight that Rios is now on the White Sox. I sure hope he doesn't take Bacon's number. Then, I'd have to rush to see if I could switch the jersey number on the order I just placed.

It is Cot's spreadsheet. It just doesn't have Peavy updated yet.

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 03:25 PM
Konerko is signed for next year...he needs no raise. As is AJ. If you are talking about 2011, well Tyler Flowers will be here by then and Konerko will likely take a pay cut or be replaced.

It's debatable that Danks will get much more in arbitration but I'll give you he'll get a slight bump. Quentin is hitting .230 with what 8 hr?...how much of raise do you think that warrants? Arbitration is based purely on numbers, not potential. Again, at most he gets a slight bump.

Obviously, I just was throwing out thoughts as they came into my head w/o researching every one of them. You make a lot of assumptions in your arguments that may turn out o.k., but may not just as easily.

Actually no my argument all along is that Toronto is looking to dump Rios' contract not pick up prospects. But I said I dont think Rios' contract is a problem considering what we have coming off next year. Who said KW should not be looking into payroll ramifications? What I said was I don't believe there are any.


Again, I was rambling whatever was there (and didn't mean to only imply next year - I don't actually think I did). I was talking about the future as a whole - so for example, Jenks may command a hefty multi-year deal in 2 years. My point for posting all that was that there are question marks and you, I, nor KW can predict the future.

You never posted (that I saw) that the Jays weren't looking for prospects until now. Even so, I can't understand how you know this.

My issue comes from the bold. The point you make here makes sense to me, and I would agree. In fact, it better not be a problem if he made a waiver claim on the player. My argument isn't that KW can't take on Rios' contract, it's that he SHOULD consider if the money COULD be spent more wisely elsewhere (i.e. BP upgrades) in exchange for giving up a prospect/player or two, or three. At least initially, you didn't make this argument in response to my posts. I was responding to other posters (DickAllen72 and others) pretty much saying it was stupid to think that the Jays and Sox would be discussing adding prospects and $$$ to this rumored deal. I've put reasons as to why both sides would at least approach the subject, but the only thoughts I have is that they continue to assume I mean Josh Fields =$5 mil. The Jays may very well pay for the rights/potential of some of the Sox' touted prospects. I mean teams give bonuses for a reason (see: Viciedo). My arguments are sound in reason, and for some reason I can't convince some of the posters here. I think (at least for the bigger picture) we were arguing different things. I was taking issue to how you were responding to my posts because I didn't think they applied.

OTOH, I can't figure out how DickAllen72 disagrees with what I've said.

dickallen15
08-10-2009, 03:25 PM
Where in the hell did I say AA prospects are worth $10 million. You're putting words in my mouth. BadBobby is implying that I'm being ridiculous in saying KW should consider payroll and explore all options with Toronto in this trade.

I will not get it out of my head... it's in there and it's stuck. It's stuck there because that's where I put rational thoughts... in my head.

I'm not saying this will happen, but it certainly is a possibility and I would put winning money on the fact that KW and Riccardi have considered and weighed their options regarding this possibility (if the Sox are the ones that put the claim in and the Jays didn't automatically pull him back). Not saying this is a good move, but what if KW offers Flowers, Danks and/or Viciedo or any combination of? You don't think the Jays would offer a financial return for them?!?!? That probably won't happen... but maybe KW has a bigger plan for the $$$ to use in the off-season that he thinks is of more value to the club than the aforementioned players. I don't know - I'm not KW, but I do know that he does consider his options.

$2 million a year for 5 years is $10 million. At first you suggested they pay $3.5 million a year for Danks, thats $17.5 million. It isn't going to happen. Toronto will take back prospects, but they aren't sending any money. Who really knows if they want to rid themselves of this contract anyway.

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 03:27 PM
No I did not, so please stop it already. What I did say is I don't think Rios' contract puts us at any disadvantage moving forward. Never have I said KW should take on all contracts and not worry about payroll. Quit being ridiculous.

That was before I read your recent post that I just commented on.

voodoochile
08-10-2009, 03:29 PM
$2 million a year for 5 years is $10 million. At first you suggested they pay $3.5 million a year for Danks, thats $17.5 million. It isn't going to happen. Toronto will take back prospects, but they aren't sending any money. Who really knows if they want to rid themselves of this contract anyway.

You'd have to factor in the discount rate. If inflation is at 3%, $2M a year for 5 years present value is only $8.63M for example.

Yeah, it's still a hefty price to pay, but it does factor into the value of the money.

BadBobbyJenks
08-10-2009, 03:29 PM
Again, I was rambling whatever was there (and didn't mean to only imply next year - I don't actually think I did). I was talking about the future as a whole - so for example, Jenks may command a hefty multi-year deal in 2 years. My point for posting all that was that there are question marks and you, I, nor KW can predict the future.

You never posted (that I saw) that the Jays weren't looking for prospects until now. Even so, I can't understand how you know this.

My issue comes from the bold. The point you make here makes sense to me, and I would agree. In fact, it better not be if he made a waiver claim on the player. My argument isn't that KW can't take on Rios' contract, it's that he SHOULD consider if the money COULD be spent more wisely elsewhere (i.e. BP upgrades) in exchange for giving up a prospect/player or two, or three. At least initially, you didn't make this argument in response to my posts. I was responding to other posters (DickAllen72 and others) pretty much saying it was stupid to think that the Jays and Sox would be discussing adding prospects and $$$ to this rumored deal. I've put reasons as to why both sides would at least approach the subject, but the only thoughts I have is that they continue to assume I mean Josh Fields =$5 mil. The Jays may very well pay for the rights/potential of some of the Sox' touted prospects. I mean teams give bonuses for a reason (see: Viciedo). My arguments are sound in reason, and for some reason I can't convince some of the posters here. I think (at least for the bigger picture) we were arguing different things. I was taking issue to how you were responding to my posts because I didn't think they applied.



Jenks is going through Arbitration until 2012, we are covered at about what he is making this season until then.

I have been saying the Jays are covered in the outfield with Snyder and Lind so this is a salary dump plain and simple.

I just dont think the Jays are interested in paying any of Rios' contract.

Noneck
08-10-2009, 03:29 PM
This is really poor reasoning. By your definition any trade of a major league player is "white flaggish."

Linebrink is like our 5th option out of the pen. He gave up about 14 doubles on Sunday. He's bad. He's replaceable. Hell I'd trade Dye or Beckham for Pujols, but by your definition that'd be a white flag also since those guys could help our team and aren't in the minors.

DeWayne Wise for Hanley Ramierez...white flag. Wise can help this team as a late inning sub/pinch runner.

Comeon. You know what I am saying. The Jays wouldn't want Linebrink and the only reason would be for the Sox to dump salary. Giving up a guy that can help the team at this stage of the season is what I am talking about. If he is replaced now, that's a different story. But not by someone from the minors.

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 03:39 PM
$2 million a year for 5 years is $10 million. At first you suggested they pay $3.5 million a year for Danks, thats $17.5 million. It isn't going to happen.

I never suggested this. I don't even know where you got this figure. I threw out what a number that I thought was possible ($3-6 mil. <-- albeit improbable) and could see how it could upgrade a/some 5th starter/ BP spot(s). I never even mentioned Danks. Rather I said multiple "prospects", and should have just said players. I also never commented on the duration of which the payments would continue. I never indicated that it needed to go on for 5 years. In fact, I was probably just thinking 2 years or so.

Toronto will take back prospects, but they aren't sending any money.

Perhaps... but you aren't sure.

Who really knows if they want to rid themselves of this contract anyway.

Wow! We Agree!

Whitesoxfan23
08-10-2009, 03:44 PM
Unfortunately, this sounds like to be one of those things that drags on for days, and we find out tomorrow at the deadline, that "both sides tried to agree on a deal, but neither party could agree". JP is a moron. He's going to want alot more, than he should get, and when he doesn't get his way, he will back out.

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 03:44 PM
Comeon. You know what I am saying. The Jays wouldn't want Linebrink and the only reason would be for the Sox to dump salary. Giving up a guy that can help the team at this stage of the season is what I am talking about. If he is replaced now, that's a different story. But not by someone from the minors.

You posted your comment to dispute mine, and even I understand what you're saying. I guess I was just trying to get people to consider the fact that discussions may not just be for prospects only and moreso to point out that there are lots of possibilities to this deal.

It very well maybe an all-or-nothing deal (we take Rios and full contract or they pull him back), but I don't think it's unrealistic to believe that an alternative agreement may occur.

cws05champ
08-10-2009, 03:45 PM
Too bad, I would just love to hear what fans are saying up there. But I understand.

http://forum.okbluejays.com/toronto-blue-jays-talk/rios-claimed-on-waivers/

Toronto Fan forum...not as full as ours :D:

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 03:57 PM
http://forum.okbluejays.com/toronto-blue-jays-talk/rios-claimed-on-waivers/

Toronto Fan forum...not as full as ours :D:

I don't like not having time stamps on their posts (or am I just missing them?).

eriqjaffe
08-10-2009, 04:02 PM
I don't like not having time stamps on their posts (or am I just missing them?).It's right under where it says "Re: Rios Claimed on Waivers" in every post.

35th and Shields
08-10-2009, 04:02 PM
I don't like not having time stamps on their posts (or am I just missing them?).

It's at the top of their post toward the middle.

Gammons Peter
08-10-2009, 04:08 PM
It's at the top of their post toward the middle.

but its written in Canadian

Noneck
08-10-2009, 04:08 PM
http://forum.okbluejays.com/toronto-blue-jays-talk/rios-claimed-on-waivers/

Toronto Fan forum...not as full as ours :D:

I guess I am spoiled living here in Chicago with boards like this and 2 sports talk radio stations. Thanks for the link but I don't get a feel of what the fans reaction would be if they dumped Rios after just extending his contract. Maybe they don't care or maybe most don't even understand what is going on up there. Maybe they go to games up there to look into the hotel windows, I don't know.

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 04:23 PM
but its written in Canadian

Maybe that was it??? Or I'm slow. Ugh.

BNLSox
08-10-2009, 04:29 PM
That Blue Jays forum seems to think Rios can play a mean "Centre" field. Hopefully he will be able to transition well from metric and all that jazz if he comes to the Southside.

hawkjt
08-10-2009, 04:35 PM
I also thinking that Rios would love to get off that dome turf....I heard someone comment the other day that it saps your legs for a couple of days after leaving astro turf fields....Alex might just bounce back big playing on Bossards baby butt soft natural grass...extend his career.

akingamongstmen
08-10-2009, 04:38 PM
That Blue Jays forum seems to think Rios can play a mean "Centre" field. Hopefully he will be able to transition well from metric and all that jazz if he comes to the Southside.

He'll just have to crash into our walls until he figures out the conversion.

SBSoxFan
08-10-2009, 04:41 PM
Does anyone know what time Tuesday the deadline is up?

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 04:42 PM
He'll just have to crash into our walls until he figures out the conversion.

I hope we wouldn't nickname him "crash".

russ99
08-10-2009, 04:42 PM
I don't understand the worries about salary in the chance the Sox get Rios for two reasons:

1. Large numbers could be coming off the books next year with Thome, Dye, Contreras, Dotel, MacDougal, etc.

2, When you claim to "go for it" and get Jake Peavy, you don't cut payroll the next year. I'm sure there will be a budget for next season, and I also think that it probably won't be at the $120M of last season, but we're not going to stay at or go below $85M.

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 04:43 PM
Does anyone know what time Tuesday the deadline is up?

I've read 1:30 P.M. EST

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 04:52 PM
I don't understand the worries about salary in the chance the Sox get Rios for two reasons:

1. Large numbers could be coming off the books next year with Thome, Dye, Contreras, Dotel, MacDougal, etc.

2, When you claim to "go for it" and get Jake Peavy, you don't cut payroll the next year. I'm sure there will be a budget for next season, and I also think that it probably won't be at the $120M of last season, but we're not going to stay at or go below $85M.

I'm assuming that this comment maybe due to some of the recent pages in which I was involved. Whether it is or not, I think I should clarify my previous comments. I don't worry about Rios' contract (at least at this point in time), but it would be irresponsible for KW to not make the most fiscally responsible decisions for his team. That means that if trading away other talent in order to save money on Rios' contract is best for the team (and could be used elsewhere), then he should explore those possibilities.

kittle42
08-10-2009, 05:13 PM
I wish we were talking about Armando Rios - now there was a player!

soxfanreggie
08-10-2009, 05:17 PM
I do agree with Russ where I don't think the payroll declines after getting Peavy. Who knows, maybe KW filled him in a little bit on some future moves he hoped to make. Regardless, Peavy is in a much better current situation here than he was in SD.

Here I was about 20 or 30 minutes before the trade deadline thinking we weren't going to make any moves and we got the biggest name out there. Now we could be in the works to try to strengthen the OF.

Sockinchisox
08-10-2009, 05:27 PM
Jays beat reporter for MLB.com says Jays just called a press conference...

http://twitter.com/mlbastian

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 05:30 PM
Jays beat reporter for MLB.com says Jays just called a press conference...

Good... news! Hopefully those two words can be put together when it's done. Also, does the TBA mean the press conference could be for tomorrow?

Rockabilly
08-10-2009, 05:30 PM
Jays beat reporter for MLB.com says Jays just called a press conference...


I read that Rios is packing up his stuff..

KRS1
08-10-2009, 05:31 PM
Jays beat reporter for MLB.com says Jays just called a press conference...

http://twitter.com/mlbastian

Sweet!

hopefully

Whitesoxfan23
08-10-2009, 05:31 PM
I hope they aren't announcing he is staying with the club.

DumpJerry
08-10-2009, 05:33 PM
I read that Rios is packing up his stuff..
Where?





Today is not Wednesday, something that is lost on everyone.....

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 05:34 PM
I read that Rios is packing up his stuff..

Reed? or Red?

Goose
08-10-2009, 05:34 PM
According to Fan 590:



Alex Rios is a member of the Chicago White Sox. Chicago has claimed him off waivers and the Blue Jays aren't returning anything in return. less than a minute ago (http://twitter.com/FAN590/statuses/3233709372)

http://www.fan590.com/

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 05:35 PM
Where?





Today is not Wednesday, something that is lost on everyone.....

Speculation... I think.

KRS1
08-10-2009, 05:35 PM
Where?





Today is not Wednesday, something that is lost on everyone.....

I can't tell you where he read that, but it's pretty much blown up on twitter with sources saying he's been traded to us. Rotoworld just confirmed it was a straight up waiver claim!!!!
http://twitter.com/Rotoworld_BB

Sockinchisox
08-10-2009, 05:36 PM
Rios to Sox for nothing.
http://twitter.com/mlbastian

Rockabilly
08-10-2009, 05:36 PM
Where?





Today is not Wednesday, something that is lost on everyone.....

On the Blue Jays forum site

russ99
08-10-2009, 05:37 PM
I'll wait for official confirmation, but if it's true, huge steal for Kenny.

Goose
08-10-2009, 05:37 PM
The Globe and Mail is also reporting:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/baseball/blue-jays-trade-rios/article1247197/

Taliesinrk
08-10-2009, 05:40 PM
I take it that this is the end for Wise?

chisoxfanatic
08-10-2009, 05:40 PM
I am currently watching SportsNet Canada, and they are having a press conference with the Jays' GM right now...Shocking, and we got a pretty decent player for NOTHING?! I'm liking this!

russ99
08-10-2009, 05:40 PM
I take it that this is the end for Wise?

Or Nix... :tongue:

kittle42
08-10-2009, 05:41 PM
i take it that this is the end for wise?

the catch

KRS1
08-10-2009, 05:41 PM
I am currently watching SportsNet Canada, and they are having a press conference with the Jays' GM right now...Shocking, and we got a pretty decent player for NOTHING?! I'm liking this!


Good to hear from you on vacay. I'm not just liking this, I'm loving it!

DumpJerry
08-10-2009, 05:43 PM
Continue here (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=114498).